I had the pleasure of sitting in on a conference call with Kerry Ehrin, executive producer/writer of Bates Motel and with Freddie Highmore (Norman Bates). This season has been completely breathtaking and with Bates Motel nearing the end of the fourth season, Kerry and Freddie took some time to talk about the episode in which Freddie wrote, the challenges he faced writing and other aspects of the show.I've put a transcript of that call below. Enjoy!
Freddie Highmore: Yes, I'd love to. I guess it was -- I mean first of all, I'm obviously incredibly grateful to (Carlton) and Kerry for allowing the writers room and giving me an opportunity to write an episode and be a part of Bates Motel beyond merely acting. And I guess it was borne out of this desire to want to be involved in the wider process and it just seemed a little odd to me to put so much into this character for the four, five months that we shoot in Vancouver and then let it completely go and just sort of go away and ignore it for a few months. And then come back and be like, oh let's just see what's been happening. (Unintelligible) continue to be involved in the wider process of creating the character. And so that's I guess where the desire was borne out of and now very much so I am sort of loving -- I love the writing experience on Bates Motel and being part of that team and am writing more things.
Question: Kerry, are you doing the Vulcan mind meld with Freddie to give him your excellent thought process in creating the story?
Kerry Ehrin: I would say that Freddie and I have a natural Vulcan mind meld. We've always had a very, very, like, weirdly idiosyncratic sensibility. So that's just been great. We've always sort of talked creatively, talked about writing, and this has just been a really great experience to kind of bring him into the -- really the workshop of how you run a room, how you put a story together, how -- just to see sort of behind the veil how that happens.
Question: Freddie, what was the biggest challenge in writing the episode, and who was the character that was the hardest for you to write for? And now you're stepping back from a role that you've inherited for four seasons -- what was the most difficult part and what was the most difficult character to write for?
Kerry Ehrin: That's a good question. It's interesting. I think I know the answer.
Freddie Highmore: What do you think the answer is?
Kerry Ehrin: I won't say. You go ahead and I'll tell you if I'm right.
Freddie Highmore: Then you'll tell me if I'm right. No, you're wrong. I was (unintelligible). I don't know. I found -- in terms of the writing rooms in general, I guess the hardest thing was to create the dynamic, and I didn't have any scenes actually with Dr. Edwards in my episode. But if you know the tone of these characters that you've lived with for so long, and the introduction of new characters that you don't know so well, it's very much getting on the same page as everyone in the room without any actual sort of physical scenes to watch and to get into. I'm not sure if that's just sort of avoiding your question, but Kerry will tell you what I struggled with more.
Kerry Ehrin: Well, it was really interesting because I mean first of all, it was great to have him in the room because it was such a presence of Norman just I mean -- just because Freddie has lived inside that role and experienced it in all dimensions. So that was really interesting but I had sort of thought perhaps, especially because in 408. The interaction with Romero, I would have thought might be the hardest -- like Romero might be the hardest character to get inside of as a writer because as an actor he's in a place where he really does not like him. So I just thought that would be a very interesting thing from a writing point of view. I wondered how he handled that.
Freddie Highmore: There is a sense of battle of control between Norman and Romero in this episode. And I guess sort of secretly inside you're like, Norman's just got to win all these battles, you know, not sort of proven right. And then you have to set your sort of character's self-interest aside and do what -- and figure out what's best for the story.
Kerry Ehrin: Well, yes, right, and for Romero because you have to get inside them. A little funny dynamic. Thank you so much.
Question: Freddie, so I think this season separating Norman from Norma has really moved the story forward and I'd like you just to speak a little bit about how you think being separated from Norma has allowed Norman to evolve and to change.
Freddie Highmore: I think part of the interesting thing about having separated Norma and Norman is that we've allowed the mother side to Norman to develop greater. And I think part of that is borne out of the fact that they are physically apart, and so through that sense of missing for her and yearning for her, he at times has visions of her, or more commonly starts to slip into that guise of being her. And I think that's what was fascinating for me to play this season, those moments of transitions in scenes with Dr. Edwards, for example, where we see Norman slip into the guise of mother and take on this other side. And I feel like that is released because of their physical separation. So that's been really, really fun to play.
Question: So like your character then, you sort of agree that he may have been better off just staying at home rather than going into Pine View?
Freddie Highmore: Well, I feel like they have to be together. They really -- there's a scene at the end of eight when Norman says this to Norma and the whole Romero thing comes to the fore in number eight. And they do have to be together. They need to be with each other in order to function. And in a way from Norma's point of view, I feel she slightly deludes herself by living in this dream, this very happy reality that she created with Romero. But when Norman comes home, as he eventually will, and we know from the story that he's going to have to come back, it sort of becomes revealed as this more of a fantasy and of a dream of another life, but it's not a life that she can ever actually leave. And so I think Norman, in number eight, in a scene towards the end, really latches onto that idea of knowing how inseparable they really are. And as much as they want to deny it, or as much as they wish that it may not -- might not be true, it always will be. No one will be able to get in between the two of them. No one will be able to break that cord.
Question: Kerry, last week Carlton mentioned he's sometimes a little frustrated because he doesn't think Bates Motel is as recognized as it should be based on a quality level. And I kind of wonder if you'd speak to the opposite of that. What influence do you think Bates Motel has had on television? For example, since it started there have been five other series based on horror movies and certainly not a new thing. It's been happening for years but do you think that would have happened without a quality show like Bates Motel?
Kerry Ehrin: It's a good question. I'm sure that it has influenced certain areas of development because any successful show does. I mean I promise you there are a lot of people trying to figure out how to do O.J. Simpson as we speak. That's just how it works. It's hard for me to speak to the influence it's had because honestly, as a creator, I live so much inside of it and I agree with Carlton that the show is so good. The acting is so good and it really -- it deserves to be recognized. We both get frustrated about that.
Freddie Highmore: I think what Kerry and Carlton have done so successfully with the show that hopefully will influence the way in which other television shows can be made is that without the background of Psycho, without this story being told within that backdrop and as a prequel to Hitchcock's Psycho, which everyone knows, I wonder whether the show would have been able to be made in the first place just based on this reasonably small premise of a relationship between the mother and the son, and the intricacies of that, and what it means. And I think it's so interesting to -- Bates Motel is sometimes -- people talk about it in the sort of horror genre, but I really think it's more of a psychological thriller or just this sort of psychological kind of romance or love story. And I think Kerry and Carlton have been amazing in digging out the nuances and the intricacies of a show based around one relationship between these two people. And so hopefully that just proves that even if a premise seems on the face of it relatively small, there's so much intricacies and people, and the way in which people live their lives that means you can make a show out of just that, out of just one single relationship.
Question: Freddie, when you got into the mindset of writing about Norman, did you learn anything about the character by looking at him in a different way than you normally do as an actor? And Kerry, were you sort of surprised by some of his takes on Norman or even any of the other characters?
Freddie Highmore: What did I do differently, Kerry? Were you surprised?
Kerry Ehrin: Different from what?
Freddie Highmore: Well, from what you might have expected. I don't know.
Kerry Ehrin: I mean really, like, it wasn't that it was different. It was more that you elevated. It was you have always just completely, like, understood and embraced the sensibility and I can't honestly say that there were differences. It was just elevated. It was just from the very beginning when we saw Freddie in dailies, and Vera, and it was such a -- I don't even know how to describe it. It was just such a beautiful realization of an emotional story that we had lived with inside of ourselves. And then to see it so beautifully come to life. I suppose that's always a surprise because honestly it's a gift when -- it has a lot to do with chemistry and it has a lot to do with a lot of things. And obviously, Vera and Freddie had never read together. It's like it just happened on screen and was just so kind of magical. So I don’t know if that answers the question precisely.
Freddie Highmore: I guess the (unintelligible) of the script was interesting and a sort of learning experience for me. And especially the way that the -- because almost all of the episodes were written before we started shooting. And so by the time you get back to revisiting this episode that you wrote various months ago, you come at it with the sort of extra weight of actually having filmed and experienced everything that you knew was written out that you hadn't quite shot yet. And so perhaps that is -- that was an interesting thing, being able to tweak stuff and seeing the evolution of the script from that very first draft into something where -- sort of linking it in with the entire arc of the character. And I guess number eight becomes quite pivotal for Norman. Obviously, at the end of seven, he's left the institution and he comes home. And so it was an interesting episode from that point of view because it pushed Norman into this new space and drove him forward with -- ultimately, with this fresh motivation. And I guess I felt lucky to be able to write that episode because it -- from Norman's point of view, it's a sort of key hinge moment from coming back -- I guess we can't talk about that. But that sense of, certainly at the beginning of the episode, Norman is trying to some extent to make things work between the two of them. And by the end of the episode that will all have descended into something else, and Norman realizes that perhaps that wasn't -- that isn't possible anymore.
Question: Now, you both mentioned earlier that it looks like there may be some trouble coming up between Norman and Romero. But Norman hasn't really reacted too much to the fact that Dylan and Emma are now sort of together. I mean he took it lightly the first time, but do you think that there might be some hard feelings coming down the line on that too?
Freddie Highmore: Well, Norman and Emma have a fun scene. I always describe these scenes as fun, whether they're (unintelligible) fun scene for me is a scene that's just exciting. I'll describe a killing scene and it was really fun. So do with that what you will but there's a really interesting theme between Norman and Emma in this episode and I think -- that I think goes some way towards keeping the audience on Norman's side to some extent and really feeling for him and seeing that he's not just a lunatic and that he genuinely does have a moral compass.
Question: Freddie, Norman is an often intense and introverted character. Some actors say that playing roles like that makes it hard for them to separate themselves from the character when they've been playing it for a long time. Is that something that you've experienced, Freddie?
Freddie Highmore: Not really, no. It's interesting the sense the sort of sense of because someone's more introverted, it affects you more and certainly Norman is that and that's what's been -- what's been great I think about the writing that Kerry has lead this season is that it's really been even more so than before focused on those nuanced interesting moments and the transitions and themes, and the keys to sort of unlocking on a deeper level various relationships.That lends itself towards a more sort of introverted take on the character. We've had these -- for example, we've had these great scenes of -- in episode five -- between Norman and Dr. Edwards that sort of run four or five pages and it's so bold and confident to -- and trusting too, to sort of allow a scene to play out in its full as opposed to feeling the need to sort of cut the time or cut it back for television. And those moments and those long interesting themes have always been championed by Kerry.
And I guess in terms of me, no, I haven't really been that affected by -- I don't know. I kind of -- you get into it on the day, of course, and it's impossible to sort of be yourself one minute and laughing and happy with everyone, and the next you sort of change and become your character. But I feel like at the end of the day when you leave and go home there isn't that sense of anything lingering over me. I mean in some ways, not to encourage acting as a form of therapy, but it can be quite cathartic to have a big emotional scene and in the same way when in reality you're crying with someone or you shout at someone and you feel like you vented all of this (unintelligible) energy. And then you feel kind of good about yourself and relaxed. (Unintelligible) sometimes with Norman. Maybe it's just allowing to -- maybe there is a Norman within me and I'm just allowing him to express it, to make sure it doesn't impinge on my real life.I don't know what I'm going to do when the show's over. Watch out.
Question: Kerry, if I may too. As the reimagined story of Psycho is taking its own directions, what are some of the biggest challenges with trying to keep it on track with at least some of the events in the original movie?
Kerry Ehrin: I don’t really see those as challenges. Those are more opportunities and they're fun. When you can really organically pull in little important bits or an iconic image, a little bit of dialogue, a reference, those are fun. Those are fun to get to use and we use them sparingly. We always -- Carlton, (cues) and I always from the beginning wanted it to feel like a world of its own but we wanted certain iconic presences like the house, the Psycho house. And when we get to use those things, it's actually really, really fun. So I wouldn't say it's challenging. I'd say it's sort of delicious.
Freddie Highmore: And number eight there's actually a big recognizable moment from Psycho that will be revealed, the sort of origin of one of the sort of classic Psycho (unintelligible) that will be set up in number eight. So it is that sense of, as Kerry was saying, teasing stuff in and having it there but it never taking over the show or never being about…
Kerry Ehrin: It doesn't lead the story. And there's been quite a few Easter eggs this year, a little -- not gigantic references from Psycho but little ones and those are fun too.
Question: Freddie, As you were writing the script, did you hear your fellow actors' voices interacting with you as Norman on the page?
Freddie Highmore: Yes, I think so. I mean I guess you sort of hope that you -- you hope to embody every character when you're writing as opposed to just one. But certainly, the scenes where Norman is more dominant you can't help but see it through his eyes. But I feel like that's do with creating the perspective of a scene too and in general, with any scene that you write there's one person in the scene who is maybe driving it or who is maybe more in control and that sort of can be a useful way into a scene, to approach it through one person's eyes as opposed to these two people. But no, it was fascinating to -- and again, I'm just very grateful to have been allowed that opportunity to delve deeper into Norman's psyche.
Question: And I know that some of the cast actually said that it was very refreshing coming from another actor. Were you able to approach your writing totally differently because it was coming from a fellow actor?
Freddie Highmore: I mean I guess you hope to do everyone justice. I mean there were certainly fun moments on set when as with every script, someone will say, oh, I'm not quite sure about this line. Like who on earth wrote this and I guess actually I'd be there on set to be like, yes, I guess okay, cut it. It's not really my decision but don't tell Kerry if you don't like it. But no, and I feel like everyone appreciated me being there and the input that goes in when writing beyond the mere script. I think it was useful to and we've had most of the writers on set for every episode of Bates Motel this season. And I think there is something handy in being able to talk things through, and there's such a dialogue on Bates Motel that it was never a sense of what -- I don't like this scene or I don't like this line. It's more about what are you trying to get into, in this moment, and working through those, and solving those little issues. And from a writing perspective, I guess you have a little bit more insight because you know the background to everything is so much better having discussed it in the room.
Question: I was just wondering over the first three seasons, you have slowly sunk into this sort of dissociative state. And then, like, this season you've really felt into it -- this other persona, this mother. Was there any kind of research? I know you watch Psycho before every scene is in. Was there any kind of research or any kind of thing that you did to learn a little more about this sort of mental illness?
Freddie Highmore: Yes, I mean that was something that certainly was discussed in the writer's room and Kerry has done a lot of research, I know, into the effects of DID and whether Norman himself is entirely -- fits neatly into that description. I don't think anyone is sort of entirely one thing. But from my point of view, I guess the season arc for Norman has been -- it's been interesting to both at the same time try and maintain people's sympathy towards him, but also develop this more -- slightly more cunning or Machiavellian side to him whereby he -- there's a sense of sort of self interest in him acting selfishly, when in number seven he says to Julian that he knows how to make people think that he's normal.
There's this sense of a trickier, more mature Norman that has come out who knows how to manipulate (unintelligible) and that's been interesting to play with and to develop. And the key with that has been at the same time we must be careful not to know -- for the audience to know exactly when Norman is being genuine and when he's not. So that there's still a sense of being with him on his journey as opposed to being completely bewildered by whether his actions are sort of merely manipulative or genuinely coming from his heart.
Question: Freddie, You're playing this uber creepy character to perfection. But I'm wondering, are you having very weird dreams?
Freddie Highmore: No, I don't know why everyone thinks that it's going to -- no, not at all. No, I think part of it is because I do -- like towards the end of the season, it's all become more apparent in these last three episodes, but there's a sense that Norman at the end of this big scene that he has at the end of number eight, I think Norman is right. There's a side to him that's incredibly insightful and more insightful than any other character on the show. And so he's not completely insane. There is a -- maybe this is just me having gone insane defending Norman's sanity. But I feel like he is, in some respects, he becomes the -- not necessarily the sanest person on the show, but certainly one who -- you know what I'm trying to say, Kerry.
Kerry Ehrin: I do. He understands the codependent relationship without knowing what to call it. He understands it on a very deep, instinctive level what Norma is trying to (unintelligible). And in that sense he is right. One of the cool things about -- I think this episode in particular is -- I think that each character has a perspective that makes sense and that is right. And that's what's so much fun about kind of letting them all loose together. But Norman does have an instinctive understanding of his relationship with his mother that is absolutely correct and that she is kind of trying to deny at the moment.
Question: Okay, so Kerry, do you have weird dreams?
Kerry Ehrin: I've always had weird dreams. That has nothing to do with this show except it may influence the show, but show does not cause them.
Question: Freddie, I was just wondering in writing Norman and then playing Norman, how different is it when you're delivering your words, i.e. is it like more organic? Could you talk a little bit about that?
Freddie Highmore: I guess there's perhaps a certain -- a bit more freedom. I guess I'm usually quite precise. I feel like there's -- the way I approach acting in general is to do a lot of preparation and to be -- to know your take on the scene and the very (unintelligible) that are particularly interesting to pick throughout it, an do all of that work beforehand. And then when you're in the scene itself, you can sort of allow yourself a bit more freedom and seeing what happens, but always knowing sort of backbone of the scene that you predetermined to some extent. And I guess with writing, there's a sense of those processes are all mixed up or condensed. You understand on an instinctive level the motivation behind not only your character but other characters because you've been there and written them. And so it's not as -- it's not that the lines aren't as important, but there's a sense of, well, this was the intention of the scene. This was the way that I knew along with everyone in the writer's room that we knew was the point of it.
And so maybe there's a bit more freedom in a moment to think, well, then not sort of ad-libbing, making up stuff as you go along, but more freedom to play with stuff and to find different ways of telling what you knew was the original goal of the scene.
Question: After four seasons, it's easy for you to hang Norman up at the end of the day but sometimes viewers don't. So what's the everyday experience like for you of being Norman Bates to so many people?
Freddie Highmore: I guess it's nice that people appreciate Norman and are on his side, and enjoy the show. It's always nice to receive lovely feedback on it. At the same time, I don't know. I don’t -- I'm not on Twitter or I don't read the reviews. So there's a -- maybe that's what helps keep me sane in my real life, the (unintelligible) between playing Norman and reality, and not confusing the two. Someone suggested the other day I should get a Norman Bates -- official Norman Twitter account. That if I wasn't going to go on Twitter then maybe there should be Norman Bates with a little tick. But I'm not sure that's the (unintelligible) especially given our conversation today. That's the safest path for…
Question: So I just noticed that in the series there's this overreaching kind of Bronte-esque vibe to it and it's kind of -- like in first season there was the (unintelligible) there's a cord between our hearts. And the whole series has a bit of a gothic, like, kind of setting to it. And so one of the things that I'm kind of wondering is beyond the Hitchcock mythology and kind of themes of mental illness, would you say that a large theme within the show kind of reflects on Bronte's novels and the idea of loving someone who you know isn't right to love in the way that you love them? And…
Freddie Highmore: Kerry needs to answer this question because this is exactly what she -- in terms of, she was saying beyond the sort of overarching themes of mental illness and of the Bates Motel functioning as prequel to Psycho, to what extent is there an influence of the Bronte novels in the show and especially the sense of a cord between their (unintelligible) and someone who you know is not best for you.
Kerry Ehrin: There's a huge influence. I mean I think that from the very, very beginning because everyone knows it's Psycho, right, and everyone knows that it's Hitchcock. And I think because that movie is two hours that you can live with Norman and you can feel for him in those two hours. But you need to -- we're talking about doing 50 hours of these characters. And it is very intensely about these two characters. I don't know if any two characters have ever done so much screen time on any show, honestly. It's kind of amazing.But so you need people to kind of buy into this love story so that they're on the ride with them. And nobody does that better than the Bronte. And I actually studies Victorian Lit in college so it was a huge influence on me and it was I think probably a personal thing to me to really try to pull out that gothic romantic doomed lovers but that at the same time that you desperately wanted things to work out for them. It’s a larger than life love is what it is and no one does it better than the Brontes. Thank you for noticing. Thank you for the Bronte shout out.
Question: Freddie, you have written an episode, which I'm so excited to see. And I was just wondering in terms of when you first found out that you were going to be writing an episode, did you have any specific ideas for what you wanted to do? Or did that come out more in the writer's room?
Freddie Highmore: I think that's the collaborative nature of the writer's room is that it -- you can't really look back at any finished script and say, oh, this was my idea or this is something that I had pitched. It all becomes mixed up and it all becomes everyone's opinion and that's what's so exciting about the process that you might look back and think, oh, I remember that little line or more things like that. But really, it's -- all of the scenes are -- come through because of everyone's input. And of course, that's led by Kerry. So there wasn't this sense of arriving and being like oh, I've got to make sure I get this quirky thing in because ultimately it just has to be driven by the characters and what's right in the moment. And that's not really something that can be predetermined.
Kerry Ehrin: Yes, or isolated.
Freddie Highmore: Or isolated, yes. I mean I guess the other exciting thing about number eight is that I've always enjoyed seeing those themes when there's a slight power play and fight for control between Norman and Romero. And number eight was a perfect opportunity for that by dint of the storyline. And that was -- those were exciting to write. I mean in terms of battle of control, it's certainly one that Romero often wins but the humor, the sort of dark humor underlying all of it to me is that Norman thinks he's doing so well. He thinks that he can really take on Romero and win. And so there's a fun scene at the start of eight that's built around that. And then (unintelligible).
Kerry Ehrin: I love that scene.
Freddie Highmore: Of the episode, there's -- it's something that becomes more emotional and raw as opposed to two people having a battle of wits.
Question: Freddie, you had a great scene with Damon Gupton at the end of the last episode and it just really I thought showed the vulnerability of Norman as he's going through these tough times. But I know that he also has this agenda to put on a persona to trick people. So I was curious from your standpoint, do you think that Norman truly is scared as he admitted to Dr. Edwards? Or is that part of his mask to the rest of the world?
Freddie Highmore: It's a really interesting question because I remember discussing this with Kerry beforehand and Nestor, who obviously directed the scene on the day. And to me, I think it ultimately is a mixture of both. I think that he exploits genuine fears that he has and real emotions that he does feel, instead of sort of entirely making them up. But perhaps he puts on a little bit of a show in exaggerating them in the moment. I think that usually when you're upset about things, you try hard to cover it up. You -- I always use this phrase of playing against the emotion and I feel like in that moment, Norman perhaps isn't entirely genuine in that he doesn't try and sort of behave in the way that usual people would, and sort of hide and cover that emotion up. And I feel in doing so, maybe there is a slight sense of manipulation because he's very open and certain wants Dr. Edwards to feel it.And of course, he has his agenda. His agenda in that scene is to make sure that whatever happens, he's going to get out of the institution and that's his driving goal, and that can't help but effect these genuine feelings that he's feeling, but that perhaps he uses for his own self-interest.
Kerry Ehrin: One of the really fun things about -- if I could add, about writing the show -- is that so often in this show, characters are not saying out loud what they're actually feeling. They're saying something else and it's very layered. And it's like there's a whole other emotional dialogue that goes on under each scene as opposed to just what they're saying. And I think it's one of the things that makes -- also it's just like the acting is just so layered and amazing, but those scenes are just really fun to write.And also, this idea that you -- that you cannot be both honest and manipulative at the same time I think is funny, because you absolutely can be. And I mean, my personal feeling in that scene was that he was being -- there was a part of him that was scared to go home and that knew he was kind of screwed. But he had to go home and he was -- he had established this trust with Dr. Edwards. And there was just so many different things going on in that scene, I think that's -- and Freddie and Damon Gupton just did it beautifully.
Freddie Highmore: I think in terms of what the writing gave was to set -- Norman feels -- I mean he's talking with different people but he feels very similarly about his situation when he's talking to Norma and when he's talking to Dr. Edwards in two of the -- sort of his biggest scenes that come up towards the end of seven when he's trying to get home. And so despite the fact that he goes into that with a similar -- in a similar emotional position and with a similar desire, it's interesting to see the ways in which he plays those two scenes differently. So to get the effect that he wants. They're not the same scene.
Kerry Ehrin: Yes, even though the content is somewhat similar, yes.
Freddie Highmore: And so that's a sort of guide to how that works and to how he manipulates and is sort of socially aware enough to slightly change his story depending on the situation itself.
Question: Bates Motel hasn't returned here in Brazil yet. So I want you to tell me more about this season and how do you compare this season with the previous ones?
Kerry Ehrin: Do you want to take that one, Freddie?
Freddie Highmore: I can start. I feel like the knowing now that we have a five season arc to the show and that this season that's currently airing and the next one will be the last I think allows us to -- has allowed the writers and Kerry and Carlton to pushed forward towards an end point with more haste and determination than ever before. There's not this sense of needing to hold back anything for any longer because now is the time to reap the rewards of the payoff that -- the set up that we had over the entirety of three seasons.And so the payoff is what starts to be developed in this fourth season and continues into -- will continue into the fifth season. And that's the most exciting point of the show. Because you -- if you sort of started the show at the start of episode eight, or nine, or ten, or 15, it wouldn't quite work. There'd be something odd and there would be something not unbelievable but it would be very difficult to get inside those characters. But what's great is that we have that huge amount of back-story that we know and that we are invested in, and that this is the opportunity, in a way, for Norman coming home. There's a sense of an attempt of a fresh start, and of resetting things and moving towards that end point.
