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USD POLL : Did shipping hurt Sleepy Hollow?

Jul 9, 2015

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Today's User Submitted Daily (USD) Poll was submitted by RD who was picked randomly from our Poll Submissions (see below).

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123 comments:

  1. No, what hurt the show was the lack of direction and atrocious writing.

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  2. How? If you are talking about Ichabod/Katrina, the writers didn't really care much about their shippers. If you are talking about Ichabod/Abbie, there wasn't any love triangle stuff going on. They still had their partner dynamic and they got closer, but it wasn't more romantic than it was before.

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  3. I feel shipping hurts every show really, shipping has made it so the fans are essentially are the "backseat showrunners" and not the people who are supposed to be running the show and in charge of what goes on.

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  4. The shipping wasn't the problem, it was the confusing storylines and poor writing. Still love the show, looking forward to Season 3.

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  5. Not really, there is bigger issues than romantic relationships on the show. I felt what hurt S2 was how they treated characters like Irving - kept him apart from most of the other main characters, a lot of the time only Jenny cared about helping him, then they bring him back into the fold only to kill him and then bring him back again. Just when it seems like the show might be back to the main 4 its been announced he won't be back in S3. A mess.


    Then there is Jenny, made a season regular in S2 but severely underused. They brought in Hawley and gave a lot of Jenny's role to him instead. I had nothing against Hawley but he took away screentime at the expense of the far more interesting Jenny.


    Then there is Henry, who could have been a really interesting foe but they didn't seem to know what to do with the character. A waste of the extremely talented John Noble.

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  6. Combination of the writers not knowing what direction to take the characters and shippers wanting Abbie and Ichabod together.

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  7. Bad writing hurt the show,PERIOD.

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  8. At least for me, shipping Ichabod and Abbie was pretty much the only reason I kept watching the second season even though most of the episodes were boring and predictable.

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  9. Um, no. What? I mean, like, the Cranes being a ship or something? Was that a thing? The question confuses me - I mean, it's not like it was Abbie and Crane got together and took the show down in a plethora of overly saccharine couple moments or something; or even that they did that will they/won't they thing. Just because people might want Abbie and Crane together doesn't mean that was reflected in the writing of the show at all or impacted the way the season went. I think people give too much power to shipping in general - it's become this terrifying monster that hovers over their shows ready to strike and kill it at any moment, and they live in terror of it's coming at all times - but at least most of the time, even if I disagree on the magnitude of the problem, I can usually understand where they're coming from. But with this ... seriously, what?


    At any rate, the fact that the show didn't know what to do with itself in the second season hurt the show. It told the original season of stories that the writers had planned out, and then they clearly had no idea what to do next, so it kind of meandered for a while, misusing characters and being generally confused about it's end goals, til it had a surprisingly good finale.

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  10. Shipping always hurt a show when i gets out of hand, like Arrow

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  11. Shipping? What shipping? Katrina and Crane were married, so I suppose the poll doesn't refers to them! And as for people wanting Abbie and Crane together, that dind't even exist on the show, so what the sense of this poll?

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  12. This x10. It was poor writing. I don't know if the praise from S1 went to their heads or not but it was as if two completely different set of writers

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  13. It defenitely hurt that the writers took so much time on it. Romantic relationship should be side dishes slowly developed into real relationships; Sleepy Hollow didn't rushed into relationship mode for its characters, but it surely took A LOT of time exploring relationship issues as opposed to progressing with the plot, which made the show incredibly dull IMO.


    I was really tired of watching the Ichabod-Katrina marital issues, and the love triangles that Abbie was put into. It used too much valuable time that the show could have used doing better stuff.

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  14. No. The writers screwed up the show, Blaming Abbie/Ichaod shippers makes no sense, since the Abbie/Ichabod relationship never became romantic, it was always platonic. I think that a lot of fans enjoyed the chemistry between the two leads,, Yes, people shipped them romantically, but there were also lot of other viewers (like myself), who just enjoyed their interactions but did not ship them.. The problem with the second season was that the mystery wasn't as interesting and we got a lot less of the fun Abbie/Ichabod dynamics which definitely changed the vibe of the show. I think this was partially due to Katrina's character having a bigger role in the 2nd season,.


    It's easy to blame the shippers for not embracing Katrina's character,, but I think the bigger issue was that the writers had a hard time integrating Katrina's character into the plot and also getting her character to strike the right amount of chemistry with the rest of the cast. So whether the objections were ship-related or not is irrelevant because the writers just never did a great job with Katrina's character. I wish they hadn't made her evil and killed her off, but I also don't think that her death ruined the show, since her character wasn't the main draw in the first season (unless you were an avid Katrina fans). This, combined with the fact that Abbie and Ichabod's relationship hasn't taken the romantic route makes the issue of whether or not we should blame shippers, somewhat of a moot topic.

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  15. Yeah I've not seen a show drop in quality so dramatically from S1 to S2 for while. I also think they should have kept the episode count at 13, it seems like they struggled with more.

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  16. Bad writing hurt the show the most after such great writing in season 1. Season two had no direction. They muddled through too much extraneous material before it finally ended. There were many missed opportunities.

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  17. What killed Sleepy Hollow wasn't the shipping, it was Katrinas character being poorly written and the Crane family drama taking precedence over the end of the world esq stuff. Oh and the Horseman of Death being reduced from being a seriously threatening figure to a lovesick guy with no head. You shouldn't humanize a bringer of the apocalypse ;)

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  18. The problem seemed to stem from them wanting Katrinas character in like every episode but having no legitimate purpose for her to be there at times.

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  19. I didn't see a love triangle there. I didn't think Abbie saw Ichabod as anything more than a friend. She seemed to have more there with Hawley.

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  20. Henry would have been a much awesome character if he didn't have the constant mom issues.

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  21. Agreed, Abbie and Ichabod have that good friends thing going. Anything more than that would ruin the show, they don't need to be romantic to save the world. If they became lovers it would mess up the dynamic they once had.

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  22. The Ichabod-Katrina-Abbie one; it was there, Katrina felt very jelous of Abbie and Ichabod in return became jelous of Abraham. It was bothersome as hell.
    I could barely stand it.

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  23. Abbie was never in a love triangle. What show were you watching?

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  24. The Katrina character, together with the Ichabod/Katrina ship tanked the show, in that sense this poll is right. Awful character and pairing. If the implication is to blame Abbie or Ichabbie, please, think twice. 1. That never happened in the show. 2. It was the main draw, though probably not anymore.

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  25. I forgot about the ridiculous sensitive headless horsemen story arc. They should never have done that.

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  26. Well said.

    What hurt the show was that it is not a good show with numerous terrible episodes. Fans gave up waiting for the show to live up to its promise and abandoned it.

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  27. Alex Mack wears a hatJuly 9, 2015 at 1:48 PM

    NO. I didn't see any shipping going on. For me it was the fact is they went in a different direction.
    Didn't like Hawley
    Didn't like Henry
    The horsemen ended up being Katrina's ex was bloody awful. The headless horsemen has a head? Are you freakin kidding me? Hated Abraham.
    The crane family drama was not needed,and i actually really liked Katrina.

    I didn't bother finishing the show off..I have four episodes left.

    I'm still deciding if I'll be back next season.

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  28. Yes....Shipping ruins every single tv series...Vampire diaries is a good example

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  29. Yeah they didn't really need that.

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  30. I remember feeling like this with Heroes.Amazing season 1 and horrible season 2.

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  31. What love triangle? There was no love triangle!

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  32. There was no love triangle to begin with.This ain't TVD.

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  33. And now Arrow is also doing a pretty job doing that.

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  34. I dunno. Some fans will always ship, you can't blame them. You can blame the writers for deciding to pander to them.

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  35. No it did not. Sleepy Hollow focusing on a character that fans clearly did not like and bad writing hurt it. Just because fans want a certain couple to get together doesn't mean that if and when they do it will ruin a show. However I never thought the way they promoted Sleepy Hollow that it was a direction they needed to go in. On every show that has couples that have been "shipped" there are many reasons for and against it but IMO Sleepy has had bigger problems then their lead couple being shipped

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  36. Hell no!!! The lame ass storyline's and the incredibly bad acting from one freaking redhead hurt Sleepy Hollow.

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  37. Nope.

    The bad WTF writing in S2 did that.

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  38. Bull. What killed Sleepy was a mixture of the two. With one side giving a critique of the whole show and the other side taking those critiques as hate for ONE badly drawn character. Every time I gave my opinion of the problems with the show, they (ichatrina shippers) would retort that I only wanted Katrina out of the way so she could be with Ichabod. Or that I'm pro-adultery. Or that I'm just shipping ichabbie. It was so hard to get a conversation going when the other side tried to shut you down with that nonsense.

    Meanwhile the problems with the show started growing and growing. Soon the audience that weren't investing who was sleeping with whom, peeled off. Why did they peel off? Because the show was written badly. Things were dropped for no reason. Great characters killed off and bad characters allowed to stick around (not talking about Hawley). Characters repeating the same lines in almost every episode. "But he's our son!" "I choose MOLOCH!" "But now is not the time or place." To say nothing of their DOING the same things over and over. How many episodes were dedicated to Henry trying to raise Moloch? How many dedicated to the Crane drama? Too many!

    As fans we noticed things and thought they'd lead somewhere. But they never did. All the things that I mentioned above have and never had anything to do with SHIPPING! Just as getting rid of Katrina and Henry had nothing to do with moving ichabbie closer. They were removed because they were a cancer that the show needed to excise before it could live. So please drop this lie that shipping was to blame for this or that. Go back and watch the episodes, if you can. Then you'll see how awful things were.

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  39. Sorry, but if shippers wanting Abbie and Ichabod together were listened to by anyone on the show, wouldn't they have wrote them as a couple on the show season 2? Wouldn't there have been romantic hints? They didn't and there weren't. What we got was Ichabod together with his WIFE. As a matter of fact, Ichabbie shippers were told as far back as October 2013 that there would never be an Ichabbie.


    If any shipping group hurt the show it would have to be the people who wanted to see Ichabod and his wife together, because that's what we got. Meanwhile, fans of the SHOW were appalled at Katrina having not one but TWO demon pregnancies in TWO seasons. And if you ask those people who only wanted to see Ichabod together with his wife, which episode was their favorite, they would cite THAT episode. Why? Because it began with Ichabod in bed with his wife.


    Everything after that, the fainting by the witch (on the side of the road), the god-awful nasty clothes they put her in, the giving birth in SKINNY JEANS, the not being able to counter Henry's spell even though she's a powerful witch, her pleading with Ichabod to ask Henry to undo his spell to Ichabod actually going to Henry to ask him to undo his spell, is over-looked by that crowd. All those are PROBLEMS with the show that have NOTHING to do with SHIPPING.


    They actually wrote a scene with Henry sitting on the floor crying because he was chastised by Moloch! Jeez.

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  40. Abbie did not have control over Katrina's jealousy. I doubt she even noticed it. If there was a triangle (which I did not see), Abbie did not participate in it.

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  41. I agree, the writing was just awful and repetitive.

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  42. Um, I don't think Ichabod was jealous of Abraham, but rather, it was yet something else that he couldn't trust his wife on. I think they were setting her up to be this untrustworthy person that would cause her to perhaps go evil (and remain on the show) after Ichabod severed their relationship. But it was handled badly by the writing.


    As for some triangle between Ichabod/Abbie/Katrina, that didn't exist on the show. Abbie was all about their duties, whereas Katrina and Ichabod seemed to forget why they were there. They forgot about the citizens of the world and considered everything through the eyes of their family. Their loved ones. Their lives. Katrina wanted to save her murderous son. Ichabod wanting to appease his wife. Henry wanting to hurt his parents for hurting him. They were three selfish individuals, IMO, and that probably turned off a lot of viewers. I mean, who do you root for in that situation? There was nothing romantic about all that for Abbie.

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  43. Pandering to the Ichatrina shippers, right? Because that's the only romantic pairing that I saw last season that involved Ichabod. They even had an episode where they went on a date. Meanwhile, the Ichabbie shippers didn't get pandered to. There weren't any love notes between them. They disagreed with each other a lot.

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  44. No the writers had no intention of making Ichabod and Abbie a love interest but that didn't stop the shippers from wanting that. And complain they did, all through season 2.


    I never said all the problems were due to shippers but in no way are you going to tell me it had NOTHING to due with shipping. You are entitled to your opinion as i am in mine.

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  45. I was in favour of Katrina & Ichabod, but they never really developed it appropriately. The show suffered terribly in Season 2 due to the overall writing of the show.

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  46. I think it was the increased episode count.

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  47. Shipping whom with whom? Because if you're talking Ichabod with Abbie, then Bitch you tried it. Poor writing and trying to shoe horn a character with little purpose (and a cardboard personality to boot) in to the plot is what really sank season 2. Mark Goofman (typo and it stays) and his attempt to turn Katrina into some sort of Underworldesque-Bad Ass Bitch! when he already had 2 Bad Ass Women, that's Abbie and Jenny, but was somehow not satisfied with them. Also, the entire role of Henry was such a waste after the bad guy reveal. John Noble was such a waste.


    And while we're on the subject, why is that no one seemed to have any show ruining concerns en masse about shipping Booth/Bones, Castle/Beckett, Mulder/Scully (my very first ship)? Can't...quite...put...my...finger...on...it...

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  48. Exactly. Sleepy Hollow's S2 problems had nothing to do with 'shipping and everything to do with bad plots, undue emphasis on unnecessary characters, and chronically terrible choices in both character direction and creative direction.

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  49. We won't know until they try it now will we?

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  50. The writers pandered to the Ichabbie shippers when they chose to make Katrina evil, and then, subsequently killed her off. They also pandered to the Ichabbie shippers when they paired Hawley (one of my favorite new tv characters this past season) back up with Jenny without explaining how or why this happened when he had shown the most interest in Abbie all season, and then, they wrote him out in the same episode. Most of the Ichabbie shippers hated Katrina and didn't like Hawley; therefore, they had to go. The last five episodes of season two were nothing but fan pandering.

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  51. My vote: a resounding Yes. : (

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  52. I cannot speak for others, but I never shipped Ichabbie because I am a romance/period piece fan, and I wanted Ichabod & Katrina to stay together. IMO, Mison and Winter's scenes played much like a BBC costume drama and fit the "multi-genre" concept that FOX was always mentioning when describing the show. I also think most fans didn't want a "multi-genre" concept. They only wanted a supernatural/horror show, and it seems they got it in the end. I'll stick to Penny Dreadful. IMO, it's much better at blending romantic and period elements with supernatural/horror themes.

    My other Sleepy Hollow ship was Hawley/Abbie.

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  53. I'm loving the little balance thing that we got going on with 118 Yes and 118 No. Now all we need is Undecided to be 56 and this will officially be the best poll vote yet.

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  54. And how did you come to the conclusion that every fan that wanted Katrina dead and/or wanted to get rid of Hawley was an Ichabbie shipper. That is nonsense, because you DO NOT KNOW every fan of Sleepy Hollow in order to make that assumption.

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  55. I came to this conclusion by reading hundreds of complaints over the course of season two, and the majority of these complaints were written by Ichabbie shippers.

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  56. If any shippers were a problem, it was Ichabod and Katrina shippers.


    As long as Ichabod and Katrina were together plot, logic, and supporting characters didn't matter to them.


    They weren't not fans of the show, just the couple. Which is why they promoted cancellation after Katrina was killed by her husband.


    I can't say the same of Ichabod and Abbie shippers who actually cared about things like fleshing out Katrina, Irving, and Jenny and getting consistency and getting bigger stakes.


    Mind you, I don't think shippers have any say in the goings on of the show.



    Just the poor taste-level of the writers and the producers.

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  57. She never showed interest in Hawley either. Hawley had a crush on her.


    Ichabod even asked about it once he got an inkling of Hawley's feelings in that Succubus episode, and Abbie wasn't interested.


    So, glad they scrapped Hawley though, the attempts to ship him with both sisters by one super-creepy writer is the only shipping that actually impacted the show negatively.

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  58. I think they were setting her up to be this untrustworthy person that would cause her to perhaps go evil (and remain on the show) after Ichabod severed their relationship. But it was handled badly by the writing.


    Exactly this. Neat idea, poor execution.

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  59. The writers pandered to the Ichabbie shippers when they chose to make Katrina evil, and then, subsequently killed her off.


    The writers decided this long before any shippers or Katrina fans wanted it. All the hints and clues were there, but some people didn't want to see it and therefore ignored it.

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  60. Your inference goes against what Goffman said. He said this was the plan all along. And he is a HUGE Katrina fan.


    Unless you want to accuse him of lying, you inference is wrong.

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  61. I don't understand, I'm sorry. *Rachel Dolezal voice*

    Shipping didn't hurt this show. The QUALITY of WRITING hurt it. The sidelining of fan favorite characters, the reckless use of tropes, the misogyny, the erasure hurt it. The failure to make Katrina into the powerful witch described in Season 1 (the LEADER of her coven, correct?) hurt the show, the fans and the actress herself.

    Shippers aren't being paid to do anything - so, again, NO. Every 'fandom' has shippers, so I hope this isn't a question exclusively asked to Sleepy Hollow.

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  62. If it helps, the last two eps of S2 were pretty entertaining.

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  63. Kristi HungerfordJuly 9, 2015 at 8:09 PM

    No poor plotline and focusin on a poorly written character that should have had less screentime

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  64. Granted I haven't seen season 2 of SH, knowing how shippers ruined chicago pd and fringe for me, I can say shippers ruin every show since they refuse to acknowledge the fact the show is NOT only about their couple.

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  65. That's not the reason you'll skip it but you're not lucid enough to better conceal the overt nature of your post.

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  66. "The last five episodes of season two were nothing but fan pandering." The network ordered re-writes in an attempt to salvage the show and renew it for another season. You guys kill me when you speak of 'pandering' to fans, like millions of eyes don't keep a show on air for a number of seasons. You can't lose the base - FOX wants what's best for the show, hence the demands to put the focus back on the WITNESSES.

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  67. No, it wouldn't, if done *correctly.*

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  68. If I'm being diplomatic, I'd say that Goffman accelerated his timetable for turning Katrina evil based off mostly Ichabbie shipper complaints.

    If I'm being totally honest, I'd say Goffman said what FOX told him to say. I'm cynical by nature, and no, I don't always believe what showrunners say any more than I believe politicians always tell the the truth. At the end of the day both are just trying to keep their jobs.

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  69. Perhaps you should watch it. Just sayin.

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  70. You are agreeing with things that weren't said. She said they are platonic not that them getting together would ruin the show.


    It may ruin it for you, but don't speak for the majority of viewers.


    They have great chemistry so it could work, handled correctly. I haven't seen anti-shipping for show like Bones and Castle when those leads were still in UST land, so I wonder what makes strikes a nerve with certain people with this pairing?


    Handled correctly means the show should remain focused on the Witnesses fighting the Apocalypse vs. any love drama. No using Abbie as a damsel in distress or a ping-pong ball between two lovestruck dudes like they did Katrina.

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  71. Shipping hurts a lot of shows. It hurts more when the showrunners are foolish enough to start listening to it.

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  72. If Ichabod was jealous of Abraham, it was because, like with Henry/Jeremy, Katrina kept trying to validate his actions and would use Abraham's feelings for her to get her way. Katrina was jealous of Abbie because she kept trying to insert herself as the "Third Witness" and instead of working with the team lead by the Witnesses, she would play up her marriage to Ichabod to get him on her side. The only "love triangle" was between Ichabod-Katirna-Abraham. Any conflict between Katrina and Abbie dealt with prioritizing the apocalypse.

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  73. Well, then, allow me to put your finger AND mine on it. Hilariously sad, how they dance around and think we can't see.

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  74. Sorry, but Katrina was going to be evil from the get go. They messed that up by meandering her storyline. And prior to that, they pandered to her fan-base (that is still vocal and still bitter), by putting her to the forefront.

    Hawley was brought in to be with Abbie. Something the Ichabbie fan-base was 50/50 on. Most said that if done well, they'd be for it. But instead of doing that, they wrote him having a prior sexual relationship with Jennifer. I don't know where you come from, but that's nasty to me.

    Even the Ichatrina fans should have had an issue with that, since they called everyone who shipped Ichabbie pro-adultery. But they didn't. They saw Abbie out of the way of their ship and overlooked the nastiness of that relationship. But then, they always used negative stereotypical words when describing Abbie. So her being with Hawley, who had slept with her sister, was probably how they saw her in the first place.

    And I haven't even touched on the fact that Abbie and Jennifer's relationship was already hanging by a thread. Throwing in some tired triangle trope between sisters was a bad idea that never should have made it to the page, let alone to the screen. No one wanted to see two sisters fight over a man. A man they would shared sexually, yuck!





    The sisters went from passing the Bechdel Test to failing it in two seasons. That made Hawley DOA. And if you cant see that, then you're watching with stan glasses.

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  75. The writer's hurt SH by focusing on storylines the fans could not get into. Last season was atrocious and if it weren't for the fandom I would have quit the show. The Katrina-centric stories were boring and muddled and they did not utilize John Noble AT ALL. He could have been a big bad scary and brilliant enemy, but instead they gave him daddy issues and unclear motivations for ending the world. Same with Headless, they gave him a head just so he could fawn over Katrina.. They abandoned much the diversity, sidelined Jenny in favor of that fake Han Solo (Hawley) gave Abbie one episode (the co-lead of the show had one centric episode out of 16, what nonsense).
    Sleepy Hollow needs to get back to the scare-factor, and in my humble opinion, utilize the hell out their sexy co-leads. Mison and Beharie have insane chemistry and are super gorgeous, I think seeing them in some sexytimes might actually up viewership. And you know, and engaging (somewhat scary) storyline. Also the Founding Fathers flashbacks get boring, they should flesh out the current backstory, what does Abbie do for fun, is she dating anyone, what about her powers? And allow Ichabod some genuine character development, I love his rants but it'd be cool to see him with a job and in some modern clothes.

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  76. Sleepy had MILLIONS of viewers. And if you'd bothered to actually READ what those complaints were, you'd understand that some of those complaints were VALID. Was Katrina a powerful witch? No. Was she billed as a powerful witch? Yes. Did Katrina lie to Ichabod? Yes. Were those lies valid after 200 years? No. There is so much more.

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  77. I'm sorry but since you have not seen season 2, you can't put all the blame on the shippers. One: it was NOT the shippers that ruined this show at all, actually there were VERY lttle shipping wars, or shipping in general during season 2. The downfall f sleepy was based on Goofman's attempt to make a backgroud character the front and center of the show, putting the actual main characters in the background. The storylines were terrible, her acting was atrocious and did absolutely nthing for the series. She was ridiculously dull and boring to the point where every single episode dragged. People wanted to like her and for the majority of the fans it Never happened. AND we gave her more tha enough chances, but Goofman INSISTED that we wait and see what happens, and nothing happened until the last two episodes of the season.

    NOT ONLY did the fanbase have a problem with her but every tv critic had a prblem with her, constantly giving her and the storylines terribly reviews. She even admitted that she herself did NOT like her character, blaming the writers fr her weak storylines. (did she get into hot water with that one) While she was still n the show mind you. And it got sooo bad that the network themselves had to step in and DEMAND that Goofman fix it. He had a deep love for the actress ad kept tryingg to force her down her throats. He didn't make her character into the bad ass witch she was supposed to be, he didnt keep Henry as diabolical as he was, and he completely ruined The Horseman making him into a lovesick puppy, and Henry became a mama's boy. It was unforgivable!!!

    The ratings dropped immensely and not the fans, the critics, OR the network could take it. So befre you start blaming it on shippers, UNFAIRLY, i might add, when in fact there was hardly any this season, you should go watch season 2. Then cme on back ad tell us how much "you loved it" And i'll tell you rght nw, you will be highly disappointed!!! Because the characters you loved in season 1, are NOT there in season 2. And not for the better. I kid you not.

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  78. Whoever posed this question clearly did not see that episode "Deliverance." That was truly one of the most terrible hours of tv I've ever engaged in, I want to sue whoever wrote that episode fro wasted time.
    Shipping is the least of this show's problem. Honestly, if it weren't for predominately the Ichabbie shippers there wouldn't even be a season three, given that they were the main people running twitter campaigns and everything to get he show renewed.
    Show needs to hire some writers who know how to do genre tv. The guys running the show last season clearly did not care about anything other than the (boring) Crane family drama and Katrina's "powers" (using that word loosely). They woobified the great villain of the Headless Horseman and wasted John Noble's talent. Hell they wasted Nikki Beharie and Tom Mison's talents too, because neither of them even got character development this year. The only shipping I could say hurt this show was the Ichatrina one bc their scenes were about as interesting as watching paint dry, I take that back. I'd choose the paint tbh.
    But really the show's decision to focus on the Ichatrina romance was a stupid one given that the couple made TVs Top 10 Worst Couples TWO YEARS RUNNING.
    Don't put that on Ichabbie shippers. Most of them just wanted the show to match the quality of the first 6 episodes of S1 and the last 3 of S2

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  79. But you're assuming that there was a cause and effect. There were people shipping them as a couple after the first episode aired at ComicCon. That would be prior to its actual AIR date on the network. So as far back as the first episode there were calls to put them together. With only 13 episodes it would have been easy to cater to that group and just kill Katrina off. Make her a ghost. But that's not what they did.





    So Ichabbie shippers had NOTHING to do with the direction of the show. I can also remember the writers (some who are still employed) mocking the Ichabbie shippers. That's how much they were listened to, which is NOT AT ALL. The back half of season 1 was all Katrina. Ichabod shifted from wanting to stopping Moloch to finding out from Katrina what happened to his son to then getting her out of purgatory.





    Again, if Ichabbies had been listened to, this shift wouldn't have happened. And remember, there were complaints back then too. Its odd that you think they listened one season, but not the other.

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  80. IMO, the last five episodes of season two were nothing but fan pandering because the re-writes were sudden and sloppy. The writers should have laid the context for these plot changes at the end of season two and had them pay off in season three. That would have made far more sense to the narrative which I still believe was sacrificed due to shipper complaints.

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  81. No, piss poor writing did.

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  82. There wouldn't have been a season three without those re-writes. They lost millions of views in the span of one year. Something had to be done. And in those re-writes we didn't get any romance between the witnesses. What happened at karaoke could still be interpreted as them being in the friend zone. Fans of the show and not just fans of Ichabbie, wanted to see the witnesses back together. And that's what they were given.

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  83. In regards to Hawley's relationship with Jenny, it didn't bother me because it was in the past, and he didn't know Abbie at the time. Had he tried to play the sisters off one another and sleep with both of them, I would have said "yuck!!" to that. : (

    I also HATE the racist, negative, and nasty things said about Abbie by some Ichatrina fans. It's unconscionable. : (

    Abbie is my second favorite character. Ichabod is my favorite character. Katrina was my third favorite character with Hawley and Irving rounding out my top five. Since three of my favorite characters are gone, it's just not the same series.

    I chose to watch this show because of my love of history (the Founding Fathers flashbacks were the biggest draw for me), romance/period pieces, and procedural banter. I accepted the supernatural/horror elements in exchange for the aspects that I did enjoy. I wish that the supernatural/horror side of the fandom had been willing to make the same tradeoff. FOX's "multi-genre" idea was nice in theory.

    I've chosen to not watch season three. It saddens me because it's the first time that I've dropped a show that I've watched more than a season of in over a decade.

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  84. I also read numerous complaints and there were fans who were Ichabbie shippers as well as those who were neutral and just wanted the best show possible. And that entailed solving the Katrina and Hawley problem. The next person can come along and say something totally different from you and I. So, my opinion is that your inference is skewed.

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  85. Eh, some could've considered the sniping between Abbie and Katrina a result of Abbie's "jealousy" over Katrina, same with Ichabod's reaction to Hawley anytime he interacted with Abbie. And some fans have said that the only reason Katrina was killed off was to make Ichabod/Abbie shippers happy, and in some ways I do think there is some truth to that statement.
    That said, overall, no, I personally don't think shipping in and of itself was the reason the season struggled as it did. I think the main issue was that there were some good/interesting ideas, but they weren't always executed well. I liked the idea of Ichabod and Katrina having to reconcile and deal with the fact that they might've had to kill their own son, for instance, but I think there were better ways to show that struggle without them fighting every episode. I liked the idea of Katrina staying with Abraham and messing with his head, but I hated the whole "this week she's with Abraham, next week she's with Ichabod" back and forth, and I think her ability to mess with him would've had more impact had she had at least some of her witch powers back.
    The fact that Jenny and Irving weren't utilized enough along with the fact that they didn't really know what to do with Katrina or Henry were some of the bigger reasons the show had a rough season. And with some of the insinuations about Abbie's family's past and the impact it had on her role as a Witness, considering that she did chant a few spells here and there, it would've been good to spend some time delving into her family history a little more, too, and seeing more of her bond with Jenny. I also would've much preferred it if Abbie, Jenny, and Katrina worked together instead of Abbie and Katrina being constantly at odds. Some of their debates over how to tackle some of the threats that came their way were interesting, but I much preferred the moments when they worked together and supported each other. As goofy as that pregnancy thing with Katrina was, I did like Abbie staying by her side and helping her through it.
    Shippers may well have been rather vocal at times, sure, and I think elements of the season might've been influenced by their opinions. But ultimately I feel their presence wouldn't have made much difference either way.

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  86. In those re-writes, we did get the death of Katrina at Ichabod's hand to save Abbie. It doesn't get more romantic than that, and that is another reason why I say this was written for the Ichabbie shippers. There were other less shippy ways to write Katrina's death.

    It's debatable whether there would have been a season three because FOX had many shows to cancel that were worse off ratings wise.

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  87. And while we're on the subject, why is that no one seemed to have any show ruining concerns en masse about shipping Booth/Bones, Castle/Beckett, Mulder/Scully (my very first ship)? Can't...quite...put...my...finger...on...it...
    Yeeeeeeeah, no. I don't even watch the shows you list at the end there, and yet I have read quite a few comments from people who were/are very opposed to those other ships happening. I was rather young when "X-Files" originally aired, but I've heard about how the fanbase was often heavily divided between fans wanting to keep Mulder and Scully as friends and fans wanting to put them together romantically.

    And as for "Bones" and "Castle", some fans have also stated that ever since the couples on those shows got together, the shows have struggled, because all that's happening is that the shows keep throwing unnecessary drama at them.

    You want further examples? Look at any "Arrow" thread. You will find PLENTY of people who were and are strongly opposed to Oliver and Felicity getting together.

    Then there's also the fact that some people just don't ship anything on ANY show they watch, and would think putting ANY couple together, regardless of their race or orientation or whatever, could ruin a show.
    Are there some people who use race as the reason why they don't like certain pairings? Sure. And that's a dumb reason. But there are plenty of people who don't ship or want a show to put together characters who are the same race as well, so how do you explain that?

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  88. It could also be the fact that he saved Abbie because she was about to kill a dear friend and who would stand there and let that happen without during something. Romance had nothing to do with it. It could have just be written that way for moral reasons. Ichabod did say that they all had a choice and I took that as doing something or nothing, be it for evil or good.

    The fans play a big part in getting season 3 otherwise TPTB would not have interacted with them in the various ways that they did. I am quite sure if there were no fan interactions or interest the show would have been cancelled.

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  89. I love this show whatever they bring.Wasnt even aware there was a shipping contest going on for the show although I remember going on their facebook page and calls to kill off the Katrina character was rampant.I prefer solid,sensible and flowing storylines and S3 was somehow disjointed for Sleepy Hollow.It didnt have the same ebb that the previous seasons did and that is why I am considering not watching Arrow next season and have stopped with Vampire Diaries.Seems as if these shows are ruled by twitter and I am hoping that Sleepy Hollow does not fall into this trap.Looking forward to next season!

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  90. There were other less shippy ways to write Katrina's death that wouldn't have left a romantic impression at all. The writers made a deliberate pro Ichabbie choice in that scene.

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  91. You saw something totally different from me. I saw no romance at all in that scene. I guess you saw what you wanted to see. If they wanted it to be ROMANTIC Ichabod would had said I made a choice instead of we all made choices. I took that as including the choices Katrina and Henry also made.

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  92. Hell yes. I stopped watching because of the writing getting messy.

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  93. For me the whole reason Abbie and Katrina spent their time sniping at each other instead of using their strengths together to defeat evil is because the writers wanted to play with shipping wars. It made zero sense and both character devolved instead evolved. Abbie became a toxic shrew who brought up Ichabod's marriage issues every time she could even if Ichabod wasn't talking about Katrina at all. Katrina literally became an evil witch and was killed off. Both hideous character decisions, but especially killing off Katrina so nothing would stand in the way of Abbie and Ichabod getting together, screams of catering to shippers to me. They had the opportunity to finally put 3 kick butt women together and make a powerful statement for female empowerment but instead they dragged 2 of them into an insane love triangle of jealousy and bitterness that became a square when Abraham was thrown in. They turned Female Power into the tritest cliches about bickering harpies on the planet. That is the reason I am dropping Sleepy Hollow. Anyone who could waste all that great potential gets no more chances from me.

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  94. Um, I'm old enough to have been on the internet when The X-Files was first on. You better believe there was a huge backlash about the idea of Mulder and Scully ever hooking up. As a matter of fact, the name shipper was almost a curse word in the fandom, meaning someone not to be taken seriously or someone to be dismissed out of hand. Unlike today when shippers take over absolutely everything, in those days shippers were hiding in the corners of the internet writing their fan fiction and hoping someone would finally allow them to have a voice in the overall conversation. Shippers were almost universally hated in the "serious" list-serv TV discussions. Back then, I felt sorry for shippers and defended them because they were the ridiculed minority. Now a couple decades later, the reverse is true. You can't seem to have a TV discussion without shipping popping up. Shippers rule the internet and in many cases it feels like non-shippers have been shipped off to the far ends of the internet to have their story-based conversations.

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  95. Thanks for adding to my point :). Indeed, I would be willing to bet, if we were to look back on various entertainment sites around the time the couples on "Bones", "Castle", or all the way back to "X-Files", were looking awfully close to getting together, we would've found TONS of polls debating whether or not they should. The insinuation people are making in this thread that this is somehow only a serious issue with this particular couple is just blatantly untrue. The bottom line is that there's just been a massive anti-shipping backlash in general in recent years across the board, for the reasons you note, and therefore ANY pairing will have its detractors for that reason alone.
    Plus, hell, for all we know, there are probably people who don't want Abbie with Ichabod because they want her in a relationship with another female character, even her sister (you know there's gotta be a few Abbie/Jenny shippers lurking around out there somewhere, after all). Or they like shipping characters across various shows, and think she'd be a perfect match for a character on another show they love, or whatever. In short, before people go around making assumptions as to why somebody may not like a certain pairing, maybe they should, I dunno, ask that person why they don't ship it first?
    And mind, all this is coming from someone who does like the Ichabod/Abbie pairing!

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  96. She was about to KILL Abbie, just as she was about to KILL Ichabod. What was he supposed to do? Let her kill both witnesses? Jeez. How you could get romance from a life and death situation like that is telling. He didn't save Abbie then whisper sweet nothings. He saved her and mourned for his wife. And please don't spread the lie that she didn't give him a chance to mourn. We don't know how much time elapsed.

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  97. How can there be a love triangle when there wasn't a coupling? If anything there was a love triangle between Katrina/Ichabod and Abraham. Each man professed his LOVE for Katrina at one (or more) points during each season. I've yet to hear the same words directed at Abbie by anyone other than Andy. Ichabod even told a total stranger how he felt about Katrina (On-Star).





    Abbie discussed his marriage because she saw it was hurting her friend. If you saw your friend holed up in the records room instead of going home to talk to his wife, wouldn't YOU say something? And if your friend's wife talked about saving her son AFTER he murdered multiple people AND impregnated her with a demon, wouldn't you be exasperated?





    If it had been me I would have done more than just put an alarm on that room. I'd have left them to their own devices. Neither Ichabod nor Katrina would listen to reason. Neither would listen to Abbie. No one got time for that, so people tuned out.



    IF they'd had that discussion about Henry once or twice, then Katrina would still be on the show. But they wrote her endlessly trying to save the unsaveable. Then to set headless free on a pinky swear? Jeez. That kind of writing had NOTHING to do with Shippers or Shipping and everything to do with the writers.





    They even wrote this great spy sending a note that said ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. It was basically a letter from camp. However, IF Ichabbie shippers had anything influence, that influence would have been seen year ONE because that's when the media and almost everyone else started shipping them. Katia was even asked to her face about Ichabbie during more than one interview.

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  98. There are just too many channels with niche audiences for them to go back to the old days. Their being on social media and engaging the fans is just the cost of doing business. There are some shows that don't get the audience of Sleepy on a bad day and they continue to get renewed. And they continue to be renewed because of their rabid fans. So I'm thinking that that is something you're going to just have to deal with.





    As for racism, when all the reasons for Ichabbie to NOT be together stops adding up, the only thing left is the color of her skin. It also would be naive to think that there isn't a racial component at work here. And it usually goes something like this. White male lead/Black female lead, a certain percentage of fans will express how tired they are of coupling on TV shows. White male lead/White female lead, those same people are either silent or okay with that coupling. So if you ship or wish a coupling would happen on any other show with a male/female lead and they're both white, then....




    Separate discussion to all this is: Did Ichabbie shipping effect Sleepy and was it negative? The answer to that is NO. Katrina was killed episode 18, not episode 1 or 2. IF shipping had any effect, it would have been written into the show. It wasn't. We got endless episodes about the Cranes. IF shipping had any effect, then how do you explain Henry's demise? Was he in the way of Ichabbie too? (no) Or was he written just as badly as Katrina? (yes)


    The only time I saw them pandering to the Ichabbie shippers was the date night episode. They started the episode off with Abbie helping Ichabod get ready for his date (why? I don't know), and at the end, when she saved them both. It was like they wanted the Ichabbies to watch and keep the ratings, but they didn't want to put the two of them together during the episode. Abbie's was essentially part of the B-plot, when she's the 2nd lead. So no respect was shown us or her. None of them listened to us. As I said earlier, they mocked us every chance they got.

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  99. While they never mentioned which shippers everyone assumes that they meant Ichabbies. Perhaps because we were most vocal? The Ichatrina shippers didn't seem to care about the overall show. So if we assume they mean Ichabbies, where in the show did Ichabod show any romantic interest in Abbie? Which episode had him speak of love to Abbie as he did with Katrina? If Ichabbies had any influence, wouldn't that have happened and on more than one occasion? Wouldn't TPTB have talked about this in their interviews? They didn't. They did the opposite. They talked up Katrina as a powerful witch. They talked up their relationship and the bumps in the road. And most of all, they told us there wasn't ever going to be an Ichabbie.



    Neither ship had any influence, even though the Ichatrina's would say otherwise. They are operating under the delusion that their constant tweets blowing smoke up the writers made a difference. It didn't. They were going to write that stuff anyway. Now they feel betrayed by the writers. Not because they didn't write Katrina well, but because they thought the writers were doing what they wanted.


    IF the Ichatrina's had any influence, Katrina wouldn't have died. If the Ichabbies had any influence, Ichabod would have professed his love to her. Neither happened. The ratings took a tumble because of the horrible writing and TPTB decided there wasn't any fixing the Katrina and Henry characters. A conclusion they reached after 16 episodes (more than enough time to bring in an audience, which they didn't).

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  100. However, the big difference is that with Bones, Castle and Arrow, the lead couples actually did get together, whereas that never happened in Sleepy Hollow, which is why this poll doesn't make sense in this show. This kind of poll would have been far more applicable to shows like Arrow and Castle...yet I've never seen this kind of poll with those. Yes, there's been shipper backlash on these shows in the past,, but .a poll about whether a romantic relationship should or should not happen, is not the same as a poll that asks whether shipping ruined the show. And what makes it strange, is that we're getting this poll for the one show where the relationship of the leads has remained entirely platonic. So I get what the poster was trying to say.

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  101. Well shit I lost.

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  102. Hahahaha finally. Ok. Gonna do this quick then edit it. Go grab a pen and paper.

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  103. Number1moviebuff@yahoo.com

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  104. Okay done. Why did I write it?

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  105. Email dork. Lol For convos off this site. Like ya know, PR. Conversations, between friends and not the whole world. Duh.

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  106. Oh okay. That makes sense. Well here's mine: awesome45@live.ca.

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  107. Got it. You can edit it out now.

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  108. Can I just say one thing. He addressed the troll in the Following thread :P
    You told him about it in TVD section and he addressed him in the Following.

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  109. The Following was deleted. He sucks, not me. And you're really noisy.

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  110. I think you mean nosey. And no I'm not. I follow you, I can see all your comments on my dash :P

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  111. No, you're nosey. (Which I fixed), You don't follow each and every One of my comments. This wasn't for you or anyone else on the other thread. The Mystical thread. Which is why I wanted him to meet me here only. And I already told you that.

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  112. I don't follow you around reading your comments. When I open my dash I see the comment of the people I'm following.
    Sorry I disturbed the privacy of this public conversation.

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  113. And yet out of every person in the mystical thread, you're the only one who came over here. And you should apologize (w/o the sarcasm) ccause you could've simply not said anything. And I am upset.

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  114. I should apologize for joking with my friends? And you're upset?


    I will not apologize. I didn't do anything wrong to apologize for. And you have no idea if anyone came here or not. The difference between me and the people who may or may not have come here is that I thought I was joking with my close friends. Apparently I was wrong.

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  115. No. I'm upset that you didn't respect my request to have a private moment with our mutual friend. As much privacy as a person can actually get on this site. It doesn't matter who was on here, and if they were they were at the bottom. Not disturbing us. But that's the point if people were here or not. The point is after i told you, Twice, that what i wanted to tell him was between me and him, that was not an invitation to go on your dash, see my name, go to this specific link, and comment on it. As I said before, you may follow me on this site, and I you, but you DON'T comment under every comment that I leave. (and vise versa) You know how many comments I leave on this site? You're not always apart of it. So yeah, in this case, you chose to disregard my words completely, and interfered. You just shitted on it. You shitted on my private moment. And THAT'S why I'm upset.

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  116. Of course you are entitled to your opinion. BUT the question was, did SHIPPING hurt. The Ichabbie fans didn't see their ship onscreen. In none of the episodes of last season did Ichabod profess his love for Abbie. They didn't hook-up. They barely made goo-goo eyes at each other.


    What we got was a mess of a season, with characters doing stupid stuff over and over again. We got episodes that didn't advance the plot. No shipping. Did the shippers complain about this? Yeah, they did. They complained loudly and often. But here's the thing. Even NON-shippers complained. And surprise, surprise, they complained about the same things.


    As I said before, in order to blame shippers, one would have to point to things on screen that was written specifically for said shippers and those things had to have been bad. Ruining, even. Didn't happen. One can't even say that the death of Katrina was a shipping move, since a lot of people (shippers and non-shippers alike) lost their patience with her. AND it made the show a bit better to get rid of that dead weight. So that was anti-ruining.

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