“Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.” returns for season three on September 29. The cast hasn’t begun filming yet, but they’re excited for the new season. We got a chance to talk to all 10 cast members at Comic-Con, along with executive producer Jeph Loeb. The cast answered questions in pairs of two, which was fun. That way we got to see their interactions. They really seem to love working with one other. Ian De Caestecker (Leo Fitz) and Elizabeth Henstridge (Jemma Simmons) were adorable together. They seemed an awful lot like their characters. Clark Gregg (Phil Coulson) and Chloe Bennet (Skye/Daisy Johnson) were also a lot of fun. Every time the PR reps tried to wrap up Gregg, he’d say, “No, we need to answer a couple more questions.” It’s clear he loves the fans. And we must say, Ming-Na Wen (Melinda May) looks so young, we want her beauty secrets (and great genes)! Plus all of the men on the show left our hearts racing.
Before you check out our video interviews below, here is what executive producer Jeph Loeb told us about season three.
“The key for this year really rests on the word “Inhuman,” Loeb says. “For someone like Phil Coulson who has lost a hand and has alien DNA inside of him and came back from the dead, he’s starting to question his own humanity – literally, like, ‘Am I okay inside of me?’ Then you get someone like Ward who is now on a very dark road – even darker than before – and willing to do anything in order to get, as he refers to it, closure. So there’s a kind of inhuman quality to that.”
In addition, now that the Terrigen Mist is out in the ecosystem, anyone could wake up tomorrow and be completely different. “[That’s] something that’s extremely excited to us,” he says. “There are people out there who are suddenly waking up and they’re enhanced, they’re Inhuman, and they don’t know what to do about it. And S.H.I.E.L.D. needs to get there and help them with that decision.” But as we’ve seen in the past, S.H.I.E.L.D. making that decision may not always be best for an individual. On top of that, Skye/Daisy is an Inhuman among a team who has always been skeptical about their powers. That should create some interesting dynamics.
“If you’re on a team and now suddenly one of the team [members] is one of ‘them,’ then what does that mean? That internal conflict is something we’re going to play as well,” Loeb tells us excitedly. “What’s fantastic about it is, it rings true in the things that Marvel does best, which is [explore] how we feel about people who are different than us. And what could be more different than someone who can burst into flame or turn invisible or do all of these things? And do we like that or do we not like that? Are we afraid of that?”
A few season three details were also revealed in the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. panel at Comic-Con: Skye-turned-Daisy’s code name will be Quake (a character from the comics), the group she heads will be called the Secret Warriors, and Marvel villain Lash will be joining the Inhumans. (In the comics he has powers of energy conversion, absorption and manipulation.)
Check out our cast interviews below.
I love this cast so much-all of them are adorable.Bring on Season 3!!
ReplyDeleteYes, Brett. Ward is definitely an anti-hero! 100% agreed with that and Loeb said Lash is the villain next season so... (when I give up hope for redemption, Brett swoops right in there and gives it back to me).
ReplyDeleteOH GOD, SYLVIA GAVE IAIN STICKERS. THIS IS FINE. I'M NOT DEAD (I bet Iain will be a groomsman in Brett and Melissa's wedding) AT ALL.
Somebody on the team needs to find out that John Garrett kidnapped a teenage boy and then abused and brainwashed (in the real world way, not the MCU version) Grant.
And the reasoning for Skye choosing to use the name Daisy continues to make no sense but that's par for the course. Her father tried to murder all her friends and her mother literally tried to murder her, but sure let's honor Cal by using a name she has no emotional attachment to. She chose Skye because Mary Sue Poots made her uncomfortable.
The show fails at dealing of issues of rape (Lorelei raped Grant and it was never addressed), abuse, brainwashing, victim-blaming, and self-identity. They need to do better.
"Somebody on the team needs to find out that John Garrett kidnapped a teenage boy and then abused and brainwashed (in the real world way, not the MCU version) Grant." Pointless, Garrett's not the reason Grant's a violent man, his family life is.
ReplyDeleteGrant escaped military school, stole a car, drove more than a thousand miles to his family house in order to burn it down with his brother (not yet clear which one so far, but in all likelihood it was Christian) inside, there should be no contest that he was already chaotically violent prior to Garrett, what the Garrett actually did was to give direction to the violence, method to the madness. What SHIELD really needs to find out for Grant to have even a remote shot of a second chance is that Christian really is as much a monster as Grant has hinted him to be. Worse, they need to FEEL that themselves, as in Christian not only needs to be revealed to be alive but also become the season's Big Bad in order to torment SHIELD senseless with his cruelty.
I had started to write out a reply as long as Demileto's but then realised there wasn't any point...
ReplyDeletePretty much this, after reading some of her posts since basically the Fall, there's clearly a huge gap between our views of the show.
ReplyDeleteAs for Cal, as hugely misguided as his actions were, (and surely you could claim diminished mental capacity due to his formula), you can understand the feelings towards him when you see him choosing to protect his daughter over the woman that he loved and had spent 20 years trying to redeem and save. All so that Daisy wouldn't have to live with the incrediable burden killing her own mother would have created, particularly after his conversation with Coulson about her empathy.
ReplyDeleteSKye was a reject of the name of a system that had failed her so completely (for a reason), but it's clear that her lack of knowledge about her name hurt her, hell even in the pilot you could see that in her reaction to Wards question, or her answer "no family, no family name to inherit" in providence.
True.
ReplyDeleteI think people need to try and understand that for years she had this void in her life that she needed filled and a part of it had to do with her name and Daisy Johnson comes from a happy time before they were all robbed. I think it's more than just trying to honour Cal. It's about who she is and where she comes from. She's accepting everything, the good and the bad. It's a good thing the name name Daisy is one of those good things and it meant a lot to her father, whom she reconciled with at the end. I fully get her name change.
I always felt she was searching for that family name and that if she ever found it she would use it. Her comic book counterpart essentially did something similar by going back to the use of her birth name. I actually thought they would go with Skye Johnson and they might do that to some degree, I don't think the name Skye will go away completely. We just need to wait and see how it's written.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that her comic book counterpart went back to using her birth name made me feel that this was going to be inevitable eventually, although I don't think we will lose the name Skye completely.
ReplyDeleteYeah, like I said, even in the pilot she gave a reaction when Ward asked "What's your real name?". Like you I actually thought they would split it at Skye Johnson (kind of cool that I wasn't the only one who thought that😄). But with "Quake" also coming into the mix, I could see them wanting to cut down on the names "Skye Daisy Quake Johnson" is a bit much.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking more the team will refer to her as Skye but legally she would be Daisy Johnson/Agent Johnson. Skye would be like a family name. My whole family calls me Marge but that's not the name I go by in public. I don't know how much Quake will be used. The MCU has a tendency to not use the code names that much.
ReplyDeleteExactly, you could even argue it's trying to honour the time when her mother was a woman that helped innocent people in a clinic and still saw the good in humans. Even Jiaying as horrible as she showed herself at the end wasn't that evil women when Daisy was born and named.
ReplyDeleteI agree that it marks an acceptance of her families history, good bad and ugly, along with her acceptance of her Inhuman nature now, all in all I can see the reason and the change. I'm hopeful that they will address it in the show, but even Chloe has said she saw the "Skye" name as a place holder, remember she and we have always known that she was an established character, hiding her under Skye makes it better than just calling her Daisy from the start which would have been a giant give away.
The could take it many ways I'd guess, as for using the code name, you have a point, but with secret warriors being the major take away and the point already made in the s2 finale about the need to keep the Inhumans secret maybe they will on missions. We will have to wait and see, and the waiting is killing me.
ReplyDeleteReally I absolutely just love the fact that that where I work will let me watch the Fitzsimmons videoand the Mack video but none of the others. Apparently, the other videos are not workplace appropriate.
ReplyDeleteI was also concerned when they announced that Skye was going to start calling herself Daisy. It felt like senseless fan servicing, However, this explanation works for me. One of the highlights of season two was the Skye/Cal relationship. For all of his faults, Cal loved his daughter, and in the end he was able to see the error of his ways, turn on Jaiying, the love of his life, and sacrifice everything for Daisy.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I still don't understand why you think that Ward deserves redemption but Cal doesn't. Ward also tried to kill Daisy's friends. The only difference is that Cal took full responsibility for his actions. In addition, Daisy was so desperate to find a loving family that it makes sense that she was more willing to forgive Cal. Is that unfair to Ward? Yes. I've said from the beginning that if just one of the team had offered Ward forgiveness and tried to help him, he might have redeemed himself. Sadly, it didn't make sense for any of the characters to do that. That's not victim blaming, that's good writing. Good writing isn't about what's fair, it's about what's true to the characters. It was in character for the team to hate Ward for what he'd done. And it was in character for Daisy to make the extra effort to forgive Cal because that was what she needed.
I think it's far too soon to say they've handled the transition from Skye to Daisy poorly because we haven't really seen it yet. I think if they actually have Daisy voice her reasons to change her name, show some of that awkward transition period, they could potentially say something very profound about self-identity. And even if they don't it's not the end of the world. Skye may be taking the name Daisy, but she is not going to all of a sudden abandon who she is and become the character from the comics. In fact her reason to choose the name Daisy proves this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the comics, Daisy does not have a good relationship with her father, who remains a straight up villain as far as I know. That's a huge difference, one that will forever separate the character on the show from the one in the comics.
The beauty of this show is that they don't approach these serious issues from a place where they're trying to take a stance. They're not trying to say something about abuse or identity in an all-encompassing sense. They're putting these complex and well written characters through these trials and staying true to how they would react. All kinds of different people go through these things and they all deal with them in different ways. It is unfair and unrealistic, not to mention creatively stifling to say the show fails at dealing with these issues because the outcomes don't match the stance you've already taken. This show does not need to do better in this regard. In fact, I wish more writers would take this approach.
Some funny IT filters there alright...
ReplyDeleteThink of it this way, we will get new episodes of AOS before Agent Carter, Daredevil, Jessica Jones, and Civil War Come back or make their debut. In the meantime, Ant-Man and the SHIELD comic book to help with the withdrawal.
ReplyDeleteWith Civil War coming they may try to do more with the codenamesto lay the foundation for that movie. Actually, I think AOS's major function is to help set up the MCU for Civil War, especially with the release of the very special fish oil.
Especially when they filter videos that you need to watch for work purposes. It happens at least once a week.
ReplyDeleteI would up vote you twice if I could. I would add that one of the major differences between Cal and Ward is that Cal is willing to acknowledge his own actions. He doesn't blame the drugs or ex for what he did. The first step in finding redemption is acknowledging what you did wrong in the first place. If you can't do that, then nothing will change.
ReplyDeleteGreat interviews, although typical Marvel, they gave us very little in the way of new information. That said, it was interesting to hear the actors' take on their characters and what's driving them going into season 3.
ReplyDeleteI know, like that Ming thinks May can acceptDais's actions, though how everyone deals with the Inhuman team is going to be interesting. Certainly see Mack clashing with Coulson again over the bringing in InHumans. Wonder what side Bobbi will take...
ReplyDeleteThere is also very popular fan theory that Ward allowed himself to be captured and manipulated by Lorelei to further ingratiate himself to the team. I see that as a possibility especially because once he was back in control he still used the incident as an excuse to try to kill May. If that is what happened that makes the whole dubious consent thing even murkier. If you consent to give up consent, does it still count?
ReplyDeleteWhen Garrett found him, Grant had tried to kill Christian, one of his abusers. Something caused him to snap and I'm pretty sure it has to do with Thomas and the sister.
ReplyDeleteI think Mack and Coulson will clash as well, but that's the reason Coulson rehired him. I don't see Mack betraying Coulson again. They will argue, a lot, but I feel like the characters have a mutual respect now that will make those confrontations much more open and productive. Mack is definitely wary of anything of alien origin, but he's not blinded by that. He trusted and worked with Skye in the season finale. I think he'll give other inhumans the same chance to earn his trust, but he'll start them on a very short leash.
ReplyDeleteAs for Bobbi, I don't recall her ever having a huge problem with inhumans. Like Mack, she recognizes that they pose a threat, but she still sees them as people and not things like Gonzales. I always saw Bobbi as the voice of reason in New Shield. That's not to say there won't be conflict, but again, I think the team will be more loyal and focused as a whole next season. One could hope at least. :)
So you don't think Season 2 was enough build-up for Civil War?
ReplyDeleteSeason two was just the beginning of a whole new world.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention she doesn't look like a Daisy.
ReplyDeleteSo you think there's more?
ReplyDeleteYou don't teh ink the shot of the crystals contaminating the fish oil isn't leading to anything? Lash is meant to be judging "new Inhumans", so together suggests that you will have more Inhumans being made in Daisy's style of unprepared/untrained/unguided with all the potential public fallout along with the fault lines that have appeared in Shield.
ReplyDeleteWhat exactly does a person called Daisy look like?
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean "judging", who's Lash in the comics?
ReplyDeletehttp://marvel.wikia.com/Lash_(Inhuman)_(Earth-616)
ReplyDeleteWould suggest he's going to the bad guy for at least 1 half of the season, and ties into a rapid and uncontrolled expansion of the Inhumans. Otherwise that whole scene and Coulson and Daisy talking about "the ripples" their actions were going to cause are pretty pointless.
There must be a lot more. First of all the inhumans are meant to take place the X-Men in the MCU so they're going to be bringing a lot more in to fill out the universe. We also need things to get to a point where many world governments want to try to regulate enhanced individuals. They could just be trying to be preemptive but but the early synopsis for Civil War points to there being some sort of catalysts for the reaction.
ReplyDeleteMy grandmother. (I couldn't resist.) I'm also named after her but in a different language. So technically I'm a Daisy as well. That's probably why I'm okay with the name change.
ReplyDeleteI do hope the tran finds out about ward being kidnapped and moulded by garett at such a young age.. I loved bill paxton so much imagine if he was still alive omg
ReplyDeleteYou are making Grant Ward a victim even when he's not. I'm sorry I just don't and can't agree with you. If you want to call what Garrett did abuse, you are more than welcome but why do you insist on trying to excuse his actions? People don't like Ward, not because he was abused. They don't like Ward because he shot Hand in the face tried to kill FitzSimmons etc etc. It's got nothing to do with Garrett.
ReplyDeletePeople get abuse all the time, some become perpetrators while most don't. Grant falls in the former. And no matter how much abuse we all suffers it never excuses how badly they treat others or break the law that why all those who suffered horrifying abuse (in real life) end up in jail for the rest of their lives or are executed because their actions merited such a response when they broke the law, these are people who became serial killers and rapists. They were acting out from what their abuse did to them but all that killing didn't make it okay just because they had horrible childhoods. What cannot be excused is what the abused person does of his own volition.
Ward is the same (only he's not in jail for his crimes) It's not victim blaming. Which I think you're applying incorrectly. Like I said When Garrett found Ward, he was already twisted. Ward was messed up long before Garrett showed up in his life, Garrett just refined it for his own purposes. Victim blaming is when you blame the victim for what happened to them, like when you blame someone for being raped because they dressed a certain way or behaved a certain way. Nobody's victim blaming Ward in the least, saying he deserved this because he did that. Victim blaming is what Ward did to Fitz when Fitz found Ward in Vault D. We are holding Ward accountable for his own actions if you want to shift blame to Garrett, who's long dead, that's your prerogative. It won't exonerate Ward for ALL that he did, not to the team and certainly not to me as a viewer.
Can you cause avalanches as well?!
ReplyDeleteAlso, if you think about it, Cal's redemption (as he said) isn't some Hollywood happy ending. Sure, he'll get to lead a normal, quiet life as opposed to being jailed or committed to an institution, but he lost his wife and daughter forever. Skye may visit him but he doesn't even know her. So it's not like he didn't pay a price.
ReplyDeleteAnd regardless of whether one believes Cal is more deserving of redemption than Ward (I do), Coulson offered Ward the exact same thing, a memory wipe and fresh start, which Ward would've gotten had he not double-crossed them. I don't believe Coulson was lying, either, because Ward would pose no threat to anyone once his memories were gone.
And finally... a big part of Coulson sparing Cal is just for Skye, I think. I doubt it's because he takes Cal's actions lightly or thinks that Cal deserves forgiveness.
Brainwashing and manipulation are two different things. Brainwashing leaves you with no choice, you're basically a zombie/robot at your brainwasher's service. Manipulation is being played by someone smart who understands your weaknesses. It doesn't take away your ability to choose right, it only makes the choice more difficult.
ReplyDeleteBucky Barnes and Kara were brainwashed. Ward, as much as you may want to deny it, was merely manipulated. I'm not underestimating the power of manipulation, but it doesn't remove a person's free will and therefore their responsibility for their actions.
I'm never going to stop being annoyed and downright angry at KG's gross misapplication of the term "victim blaming". It is downright absurd.
ReplyDeleteHow many times can it be repeated that NO ONE is blaming Ward for what was done TO HIM, but for what HE did to OTHERS?
I also think it's pretty problematic to accuse the show of mishandling a topic like rape simply because the actual words, "Ward was raped by Lorelei" were never uttered on screen.
ReplyDeleteI'm inclined to agree with Demileto that the main reason we never heard those words are gender double standards: TV and film are rarely willing to acknowledge female-on-male rape, because it's supposedly emasculating to say a man didn't consent (especially with a beautiful woman like Lorelei) and had the sex forced on him. However, as long as they didn't explicitly say that what had happened was NOT rape, what's the problem?
If there was a scene where Ward was like, "I banged an Asgardian once, damn she was hot", I'd totally get the rage, because it would be trivializing the incident by treating it like consensual sex. But we haven't had any reference to it since, one way or the other.
Ward was brainwashed in the real world way, not the MCU way, which is exactly what I said.
ReplyDeleteAnd oh, look at that, Google provides me a lot of options when I type in "abuse is brainwashing". SURPRISE. Here's just one example but I encourage you to Google it too because you'll learn some things
http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/mentally_abusive_relationships.html
Here's the symptoms of emotional abuse, by the way, which Garrett fits to a T as Grant's abuser. It's informative: http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2013/02/20/signs-of-emotional-abuse/
And another: http://liveboldandbloom.com/11/relationships/signs-of-emotional-abuse
Most kids aren't kidnapped by a psychopath bent on turning them into a weapon. That's what we've been saying for well over a year but nobody wants to listen.
ReplyDeleteGrant Ward is both a victim and a perpetrator because the situation isn't black and white, even though the show is trying to portray it that way.
And the show has victim blamed both Grant and Kara with their actions. It's disgusting.
The abuse doesn't excuse his actions - which I have said repeatedly and people ignore every time - but it explains them and is pretty relevant.
Ward did not victim blame Fitz and hey, I love him but I seem to remember Fitz trying to kill him when he was a prisoner and defenseless for revenge in Vault D. Jemma did it too!
And it's canon that John Garrett kidnapped Grant and physically and emotionally abused him for fifteen years. He was literally abused all his life and never got any psychological help for it. Stop denying the abuse (in general to anti-Warders, not just you).
I am holding Ward accountable for his actions but Garrett is partially responsible too.
Can I just say I love reading your comments? Always thoughtful, reasonable and objective, no matter how heated the topic is.
ReplyDeleteI have to admit, my initial belief had been that Skye would keep her name. She's had it for many years, it's how she and everyone else think of her... while "Daisy Johnson" is little more than a technicality, her parents may have given it to her but she's never used it. However, after giving it some thought and reading others' comments I feel like I can make sense of it.
Skye had been searching for the truth about where she came from her whole life. It was more important to her to anything. I think as long as she didn't know, a part of her was incomplete - and the name "Skye" represents that incompleteness.
Now she has the truth. Which is awful, but she did tell Coulson whatever he reveals to her "Can't be worse than what [she's] imagined", so she wasn't unprepared for that. I think that above all, she just needed - wait for the irony - closure. And now she has it. So leaving "Skye" behind and embracing "Daisy" is representative of her search for answers being concluded.
Another possible element that's been suggested by some is that the bame change represents making her peace with Cal and recognizing that he did love her, and all the atrocities he committed were the result of that love. As well as remembering the good woman her mother was back when she gave Skye that name, which might be slightly comforting given the monster Jiaying eventually became.
I too think at least part of the writers' motivation for having Skye transition into Daisy is fanservice and wanting to incorporate more comic elements, BUT I'll wait to see how it's written before judging.
And even then I would take it with a grain of salt because at this point I do not believe anything that Ward says, only his actions.
ReplyDeleteI do think the double standard is partially in effect. I also think that because the inability to consent was caused by forces that don't exist in the real world it makes it's hard for some people to understand what happened and therefore discuss. At this point I think I would just leave what happened to the Legal Geeks. I wonder if they did examine this issue in one of their columns. I'm going to have to dig around in the archives.
My only superpower is extreme logic and reasoning skills. I think that still counts.
ReplyDeleteSometimes forgiveness is not about the person you're forgiving but about finding peace for yourself. Holding on to the pain is just too time-consuming. Although it is a lot easier to let go when the person you're trying to forgive at least meet you halfway.
ReplyDeleteDeep cleansing breath. Your argument is logical. Your points are valid. However you can't reason with someone is not willing to see reason.
ReplyDeleteI agree that what Garrett did to Grant was manipulation and that he had free will to go with it or not and he chose wrong, but as far as Christian's concerned I'm beginning to wonder if it wasn't as much manipulation as it was pure and simple **Mind Control**.
ReplyDeleteIt started with a comment someone made in that blog I wrote making a case for Lincoln being Thomas, claiming another connection between them to be their love for playing board games. I was like, 'What?', and then he clued me that Grant played games with the team several times in season 1 (I confirmed Scrabble with the team in Repairs, but couldn't find his Battleship one with Skye) and Lincoln, well, he played one with Skye in "Frenemy of my Enemy". I thought that'd an interesting one if intentional, because board games is a typical activity you do with your **family**, something they do to bond with each other. How could that be, though, if Grant always referred to his family life as abusive?
Then I realized that the two key events in his family life, the Well and the Arsoning of the Family House, have in common the fact that one of those involved was roughly the same age Gordon had when he underwent Terrigenesis, 15-16 years old, the first one being Christian and the second one, Grant. By all means, then, the Well could've been a consequence of Christian becoming an inhuman and the second a failed attempt to do the same to Grant, as in Jiaying came for him, found Thomas, learned low much the family life went downhill since her last time there and faked the younger brother's death in order to save him from the abuse - Grant was far, far away from there at the time, in a military board school.
Finally, Grant's description of what Christian did to him - putting thoughts in his head, making him think they were his own - didn't make much sense to me while I still thought of this in human terms - it's one thing if Christian blackmailed Grant to abuse Thomas, but how do you do that for years thinking the motivation is also your own? In Inhuman terms, however, it changes the outlook completely, as it means Grant was a victim of mind control. It also gives new perspective to the screwdriver scene as described by Christian in "A Fractured House: suddenly his words - "And I saw something, something else behind his eyes. (...) A second later it was gone, and he was just my little brother again" doesn't mean as much that Grant's a psychopath as it does the mind control fading. Finally, Grant's actions seems to fit several aspects of the tropes Mind Rape (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MindRape) and Rape Leads to Insanity (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeLeadsToInsanity), at least in my perspective.
At this moment all of this his highly speculative and absolutely not set in stone, of course. If anything, though, it shows how little we know of Ward's family history and how the little we know is so untrustworthy, having come from sources that are known to be liars: Grant, Garrett and, especially, Christian. Hopefully season 3 can finally bring closure to this mystery, it's really the last one character related presented in season 1 that's still open with Coulson's ressurection, Skye's origins and May's Bahrain Incident having been solved in the past two seasons.
It would only be victim blaming if we blamed Fitz for getting himself tossed into the ocean or Kara or being kidnapped and brainwashed in the first place. That's not happening. I actually think the Kara situation is mentally preparing us for the moral argument that will be taking place regarding the Winter Soldier's actions that you know will take place during Civil War.
ReplyDeleteKara is a tragedy and I feel the show handled her story very badly. However the show isn't obligated to coddle Ward because of what happened to him as he was growing up. As I have already said, abuse should be used to excuse his actions today. They have spent more time showing the man Ward is NOW and that is the man is a villain that likes who and what he is. He takes pleasure in it and even encouraged Kara to follow in his footsteps. I will never support that kind of a man, I don't care how abused he was growing up. It's not about then but it's about now. Perhaps if Ward attempted to change and make right all his mistakes since being revealed as Hydra, I might be willing to give him a shot. The team went further than I would have and worked with him despite not earning their trust and he still betrayed them. It's Ward's despicable actions that make him unlikable.
ReplyDeleteAnd if you really want to tally the acts of the team against Ward and Ward's actions against the team, you will Ward's list is much much longer.
The point is that revenge (on both sides) needs to stop because I'm not liking Ward's actions at all but they're screwing over every single character (I am extremely upset about what they're pulling with Skye).
ReplyDeleteAnd the man clearly needed psychological help after three suicide attempts and Andrew was at Coulson's disposal and not brought in, which is sad and wrong.
Of course the show isn't obligated to coddle Ward but they at least need to treat abuse victims - Kara and Ward both suffered because of this - better.
Kara and Grant's relationship was unhealthy and co-dependent on both sides and I'm still rolling my eyes that they want me to believe a relationship developed off-screen in like four episodes is what set him down the path of revenge. I'm not buying it.
It does. Sadly, the superpower of thoroughly blocking OUT logic and reason seems a lot more common in many TV fandoms.
ReplyDeleteAndrew didn't work for SHIELD. Coulson went to him in his own private capacity. He was only brought in for Skye, because of her powers. The team, again, isn't obligated to lift a finger to help Ward. And by the way, Ward has to recognise that he needs help before he can actually get any but from elsewhere, not with the people he tried to kill.
ReplyDeleteThey should have handed him over to the authorities and save us this back and forth on message boards.
Yeah and I think that played a part in Skye forgiving Cal. Even if I played devil's advocate and claimed Ward's actions are no worse than Cal's, Skye has an emotional investment in forgiving her father and making peace with his actions that none of the team has in Ward's case. So that's a pretty logical character-driven reason why one was forgiven and the other wasn't, regardless of deservedness.
ReplyDelete*raises finger to lip* Hmmmm... (as a side note, you sure pay damn good attention to detail!)
ReplyDeleteIt would be interesting and befitting of the character if Christian had mind-control powers. Although, given the context in which we speak, I should probably clarify that it wouldn't matter to me in terms of Grant's culpability in his actions during that stage. He was A) a kid and B) physically threatened when made to abuse Thomas, so I don't hold it against him even if there wasn't mind control involved. (Burning his family home is a tougher sell and would certainly indicate a violent and dangerous nature, but given who the family was and, again, Grant's age, I'll let it slide.) It's only his actions in adulthood where we have a problem. ☺
Cut to the chase. Does "real world brainwashing" remove your free will or not? If it doesn't, then it's just manipulation and therefore no excuse. A mitigating circumstance, yes, an excuse, no.
ReplyDeleteAnd if we apply the "abuse = brainwashing" equation then any number of murderers, rapists, pedophiles, etc in the real world who were abuse victims themselves should walk. There are no two ways about it.
Define "victim blaming", please.
ReplyDeleteIndeed. And sadly, no matter how many times it's repeated, KG won't listen because it breaks her narrative of mean fans picking on Ward for no reason.
ReplyDeleteI've never heard someone say, "It's Ward's own fault that his parents abused him/his big brother made him torment his little one/Garrett kidnapped him and turned him into a human weapon." Not once. If I ever did, I'd call them out on it.
No, what we're saying is "It's Ward's own fault that he killed Nash, Hand, Eric, the guards, etc, dropped FitzSimmons in the ocean, kidnapped Skye twice and left half her team for dead at that, etc". If that's victim blaming, so is blaming Wilson Fisk of Daredevil for having Elena and many others killed - he too is an abuse victim.
Since this isn't The Vampire Diaries, where the character that used superpowers to commit rape proceeds to be portrayed as an awesome romantic hero(ine) for fans to adore and drool over, and the rape victim and his/her friends proceed to become besties with said rapist, I really don't take any issue with what's happened. FTR, I do think what happened was rape unless the "Ward got himself captured on purpose" theory pans out, but it's not really relevant to anything else and I feel was brought up simply to add to the "poor Ward" quota.
ReplyDeleteI asked her this question months ago and I did not get a actual response to my question. Good luck getting a response this time.
ReplyDeleteIt really pisses me off that they put that guilt on Jemma, tbh - she let Ward go free, said the next thing he does is on her, and is thus going to blame herself for Bobbi when they didn't need to do that at all. Plus, you know, the Kree Rock issues she's going to have.
ReplyDeleteI don't condone his actions either, he's certainly done a lot of bad things, especially to the team, and he'll have a lifetime to atone to that if he ever decides to reform, fully knowing that he'll never, ever, get their full trust again. I just think he'll end up being more like Cal in the sense that both have sympathic reasons for all the horror they've done - Grant's, in my mind, would be an obsession taken to an extreme with helping those he cares about (his take on helping, mind you) even at the expense of others, in a vain hope to atone for what he did to Thomas - than the psychopath that takes glee from hurting people that we've been led to believe so far - incidentally, a role I think will end up fitting Christian better -, and understanding what happened in his family life is key to that. I just wish it was September 29 already so I can finally see if any of my speculations will end up being right, the anxiety is killing me! :(
ReplyDeleteVictim blaming is when the victim is held responsible for actions from their attackers. They're blamed for what happened to them.
ReplyDeleteI saw it happen to Kara by the other characters, I saw it happen to Ward too, and I'm seeing Ward haters do it to him too, especially when they refuse to acknowledge John Garrett kidnapped and abused Grant.
Can you cite one example of someone saying, either here or on the show, "It's Kara's own fault that she was kidnapped and brainwashed by Hydra" or "It's Ward's own fault that he was abused by his family and Garrett"?
ReplyDeleteSo basically we are approaching the 'pretty people can't be evil' trop.
ReplyDeleteAnd I agree with you that it was just added on to the list in an effort to try to justify/excuse his behavior.
It's like trying to climb up a particularly steep hill. Every time we try to clear KG's smokescreen of taking things out of context, selectively addressing only certain scenes and cool SJW jargon, she hastily recreates it, less that annoying logic get in the way.
ReplyDeleteI think we just need to stop responding to her altogether. I was about to respond to what she posted above. I even started typing the response and I made myself walk away.
ReplyDeleteMay blamed Kara for having her face when that wasn't Kara's fault. That constitutes as victim blaming. Bobbi also blamed her by saying she knew the risks by being a SHIELD agent.
ReplyDeleteAnd the team (and Ward himself) have yet to realize Garrett was abusive but they did try to send him back to one of his abusers (Christian) and didn't believe him about the abuse.
Interviews played up the "which brother is telling the truth" aspect, which is disgusting because people really do believe the abusers over their victims. That's how they get away with it.
May's problem was that Kara was using her face to commit heinous crimes. SHIELD is already organization non grata. I don't think May appreciated having murder and treason added to her "record". Anyone would genuinely be upset at the identity theft when the consequences were that high. It's unfortunate that Kara was brainwashed. Until MCU law can recognise that brainwashing (Kara and Bucky levels of brainwashing) exist, including hi-tech that can make people look and sound like other people(tech that is currently top secret) and administer justice accordingly, it's easy to assume May would suffer consequences brought on by Kara, willingly or unwillingly.
ReplyDeleteWithout any conclusive evidence otherwise, the team would and should never trust Ward, any Ward for that matter. Coulson didn't trust Christian or Grant and it's his right to do so. May did talk about Ward and his abuse and she stated what some of us are saying, being abused is no excuse to start murdering people.
If what you are looking for is for the original five team members to say, "Grant, we know you had a rough childhood and Garrett manipulated you after he found you juvie. It's not your fault you killed all those people and tried to kill countless more, us included because, abuse does that." You have a long time to wait. Not because they don't know what sort of relationship Garrett and Ward had but because ever since he was free of Garrett, he's still a murdering sociopath.
Haven't had a fresh round of Ward wank for a while.
ReplyDeleteAlso, there was that time Grant was mind-controlled and raped by Lorelei and May held him responsible for his actions when he was under her control (and they never addressed that Lorelei raped him, which I have a major problem with as I mentioned).
ReplyDeleteHaha, I knew the moment KG posted that that it'd spawn yet another discussion. Not that I mind, I miss talking about AoS even if it's a rehashed discussion. :)
ReplyDeleteHuh - so you DO know the correct definition of victim blaming, you just completely twist everything that happens on the show to make it fit that definition. Good to know.
ReplyDeleteI do miss discussing this show.
ReplyDeleteFrom memory KG has ale daddy said she has no problem considering Fisk a Villian despite the abuse that he suffered, think it has more to do with the physique's of said actors than any rational difference between what happened to them as children.
ReplyDeleteWhy should Coulson with limited budgets/assets and hunted by everyone at the time bring Andrew to Ward? At that time period he was making ZERO attempt to be even an asset to the team. He only gave up information whenhe manipulated his way to what he wanted, ie Skye in the room, before that he hadn't given Coulson anything to help Shield.
ReplyDeleteWould Andrew have even come to the base at that point, when ever including NATO and the Federal Government are still hunting Shield.
Coulson and Shield were under NO obligation to help Ward whenhe wasn't even trying to help them.
Exactly, this is what I mean when I say KG is an expert at taking things out of context.
ReplyDeleteBobbi wasn't placing blame on Kara for getting taken and brainwashed, she was defending her own actions (and pointing out that they don't justify her kidnapping and torture). And you don't have to agree with her rationalization, there, but she made a valid point: SHIELD agents, like anyone who joins the CIA for example, know what they're signing up for. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one. Nick Fury, if faced with the same dilemma, would've gambled Kara's life in a heartbeat just as Bobbi did. That's the harsh, ugly truth of the spy business.
I'm not even sure if May and the others were aware that Kara had been brainwashed. Sure, they knew that Kara was formerly a loyal agent and that Hydra has brainwashing capabilities, but finding out she had been working with Ward understandably made them more suspicious of both her past and present actions.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I just saw May being pissed at Kara, not blaming her for anything. Yes, she was cold and lacked compassion given that Kara had been FORCED to wear her face, but I don't expect her to be perfect.
Well thank you. I really enjoy your comments as well.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, there's nothing wrong with fan servicing so long as it doesn't a) derail the story or the characters involved, or b) become the foundation of the show.
The fact that at the very least the actress took the time to figure out her character's motivation for changing her name is a good sign. You can tell these actors really care about these characters. Brett Dalton in particular goes above and beyond. He refuses to let Ward become a mustache twirling villain and it shows. I think he's the main reason that even after everything the character has done, part of me still sympathizes with the guy. The downside to this is obviously such a divisive character leads to a lot of heated arguments, but it also leads to a lot of informed discussion.
I hope the writers will give us the material to have those same types of discussions about Skye changing her name next season, even if certain commenters on this site are already freaking out about it. The mere fact that we have so much to go on already, enough to form detailed, in-character reasoning for Skye/Daisy's decision, such as the theories you mentioned, is an promising sign.
Speaking of the code names, I do hope we hear both "Quake" and "Mockingbird" next season. Sure, they're spies rather than public figures like Captain America or Iron Man, but I'm sure the show can work in the superhero monikers - e.g., as call signs on the comms during a mission.
ReplyDeleteI really need better self-control because all I seem to do when seeing those comments is write the same replies over and over again, as if it's going to make a difference this time. I guess it affirms my craziness, as it's essentially performing the same task over and over again and expecting different results... ☺
ReplyDeleteAt least Skye's name change is giving us something new to discuss... well, "discuss" for most of us, "announce it as yet another reason why the show sucks" for some.
ReplyDeleteSame as Coulson ordering the op to continue in 2.01 even when the op is blown and Hartely was injured, why because the needs of shield to get their hands on a Quinnjet no matter the cost.
ReplyDeleteIt's hard calls, doesn't make those that made them bad, it's just the nature of the business, it's why loyalty is such a big issue and why Bobbi confronted Ward about betraying his team.
As I said at the time, I have no doubt if a Kara that Ward hadn't twisted into his puppet had confronted Bobbi about her decision at the base, Bobbi's reaction and engagement with her would have been massively different to what we saw in the finale.
With secret warriors coming into the fray it could be, particularly after moving to Daisy. Though by the sounds of it Bobbi might not be on ops for 3A rom one of the interviews she gave...
ReplyDeleteNow now, it's more "they are ruining the characters and making them OOC" or something.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you say "guilt on Jemma", it suits Jemma's character completely that she would assume that guilt. Just like she was blaming herself for the actions of the gifted when she was talking to Skye in Aftershocks. She's blaming herself because she feels responsible, that's not bad writing by any measure.
ReplyDeleteLuke's shirt saying "danger, high voltage" is hilariously appropriate. Although, when you look at the guy, you can easily trade "voltage" for "hotness". :-p And I laughed out loud at his asking Henry if he has a cousin who could play Lash.
ReplyDeleteI have such a crush on Nick right now, and I have to get used to seeing him with an earring. His and Adrianne's chemistry is so good.
Iain and Liz are too adorable! And I'm beginning to see Iain's assertion that everyone other than Ming (and hopefully Brett) is just like his/her character.
Brett is hilarious and his hair is looking *incredibly* sexy, but... LOL at the anti-hero comment. No. Just no. I wonder if he actually believes that or is just throwing the SWW fandom a bone.
Yeah. I mean, it's always easy to tell that something is OOC/crap writing long before you've actually seen it play out on the show.
ReplyDelete"Don't think we'll see more betrayal" Oh, I don't know, I think we might see Lincoln do that to the team, though not remotely on the scale of HYDRA and SHIELD II's infiltration: if he's really Thomas Ward under an alias he'd probably not take well SHIELD openly talking about killing Grant and sabotage any attempts they do.
ReplyDeleteCause clearly the writers have never been able to deal with issues, or manage to twist expectations...
ReplyDeleteWhile that might happen, though I wonder just how he would react to grant? I just think the scale has been completely overdone, I mean to the point of May doubting Coulson and her place in Shield...
ReplyDeleteOh, I definitely agree that scale of betrayal has been overdone and hopefully we won't see it again. As for how a Lincoln being Thomas would react to Grant, I see 'going for the throat' to be the least likely option as it's redundant, pretty much all the other regulars have that for him; anything else is up in the air, though my guess, heavily based on my speculation about the nature of Grant and Thomas' relationship, which I exposed in the section "What does this mean for Grant Ward" in the blog post I wrote about the Lincoln/Thomas theory:
ReplyDeletehttp://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Demileto/Is_Lincoln_Campbell_really_an_alias_for_Thomas_Ward%3F
is that he'll feel guilty for all the mess Grant did and try to save his brother from oblivion. Daisy will obviously find out, be pissed that she fell yet again for a Ward and the two of them will ran away to parts unknown, with only each other to rely upon, taking this as an opportunity to mend their broken broship. At least that's what I hope, lol! :)
I tend to enjoy the first half of season 2 for that precise reason, the outside threat was far more interesting than the inside one of SHIELD II. Whitehall was an incredibly menancing villain and I was so disappointed that he was dealt with so quickly.
ReplyDeleteI think they went after Coulson because they didn't want another Nick Fury, and even though Coulson isn't that, the fact that Fury chose him as his successor didn't help his case. On top of that there were (valid) questions about Coulson's mental stability after going through TAHITI. I don't think it was so much the idea of forming a super powered team as it was they didn't trust the man who would be leading it. Gonzales had issues with powered people, and after his experience in the Kree temple Mack had problems with Alien tech. But I don't think there was a general anti-powers consensus within New Shield. I recently rewatched an episode where Bobbi expressed serious problems with how Gonzales viewed Skye, and Mack has always been good at separating his distrust of alien tech from the people it has affected.
ReplyDeleteMy point is that any New Shield tension will probably be based on distrust for Coulson, and since Bobbi and Mack both seem to be good with Coulson now, I don't see any problems coming from them, conflict and arguments most definitely, but nothing serious. This is good because I am also tired of all the backstabbing.
So much this. It's been done to death at this stage I would say. Now I'm "ok" with issues between say Inhuman agents and Human agents as that's a clear tension line (both for those that fought on the carrier and new people), or Mack clashing over Coulson's decisions fine, but two seasons in a row of pretty much betrayal being the major driving force of big plotlines... Move on to something more already (or at least make it more than "Real Shield" which I can't shake the feeling was filler to a degree), though with Civil War coming and Daisy leading Inhumans I have a really bad feeling we're not done with it yet...
ReplyDeleteI decided to stay out of this time, I need a break especially if its going to be the same old arguments for 22 weeks when the show is back on air. But I don't blame you getting involved, its maddening.
ReplyDeleteYeah, it's fine if there are disagreements and conflicts about how to do things (that makes for good TV), but it needs to be clear that everyone is on the same side and can trust each other.
ReplyDeleteI too think the Olmost SHIELD arc was one of the weaker parts of S2, mostly because their PoV and actions weren't nearly palatable enough. Take issue with Coulson leading SHIELD and his decision-making because there are signs that he's unstable, or take a harder line on the issue of Gifteds? Fine. Stage a violent coup to remove Coulson and take over his SHIELD and hunt down or lock up any opposition, while YOU have spent the last year sitting on your ass and not bothering to do a damn thing against Hydra? Not so much...
I miss just seeing new episodes, the waiting is killing me...
ReplyDeleteThis is so true, I would have loved if someone had confronted Olmost Shield about not supporting those agents in that Hydra killed with the Splinter bombs, something from the lliad culd have been there before May's Quinnjet, but hey lets complain about Hartely dying on a mission... Or just ask how many Heads had Gonzaes and Co. crossed off?
ReplyDeleteIt's not helped that Gonzales was badly written in my view with him actually only showing something of depth in Scars. Bobbi at least showed confliction throughout the whole event (still wish we could have gotten a Bobbi/Skye conversation in Scars, maybe a deleted scene?), whereas Gonzales never showed much sign of anything other than assuming his way was right. For example while I know they did it for dramatic purposes, keeping Bobbi off the team in the Dirty half dozen was stupid writing (so if Skye hadn't turned up, what was the plan send May with Ward, leaving Coulson and Fitz alone, just send Jemma with him, try hitting each area one after the other???)
Whitehall wasn't the most complex of villains but I quite enjoyed him, Reed Diamond really pulled off the whole Mengele vibe and creeped me the fvck out. I agree that his exit was terribly anti-climactic, although I think it might've been done on purpose to put the audience in Cal's shoes - he waited 20+ years for this, his glorious revenge on Whitehall, and... it all ends in a second with Coulson shooting the guy. Still wish Whitehall could've gone down in a bigger way, though, and that we had gotten an actual Coulson/Whitehall scene before that.
ReplyDeleteIf Lincoln is Thomas, I don't imagine he's going to react to Grant in the same way that everyone else in SHIELD has since the betrayal. I can see his reaction being in the same vein as Skye's to Cal - disappointed and hurt that he's finally been reunited with an estranged family member only to discover that said family member is a monster, but not furious and hateful. I really do believe that (most) people judge family in a different way than they do everyone else and tend to be much more forgiving, or at least lenient.
ReplyDeleteNow, the Skye/Cal analogy isn't perfect because while Skye was aware of the horrible things Cal had done, none of them had been done to her, which softened the blow a little. Thomas, on the other hand, surely remembers the well incident (and possibly other incidents of Christian making Grant hurt him) vividly, so that's going to make it harder for him to view Grant positively, if still light-years easier than it is for anyone on Coulson's team. However, depending on how the family dynamics worked exactly, it's possible he understands Christian's role in forcing Grant to do those things, so that could counteract the effect somewhat.
I don't think they should run away on a brotherly bonding road trip too quickly, though, because it won't be so easy for Thomas to be able to trust Grant and let his guard down around him. Even IF he understands that Grant was forced to put him in the well, the scars from that incident are clearly going to affect their interaction on some level, at least in the beginning.
You're right about fan service. It's funny that it's become a dirty word/phrase, actually, because TV shows are supposed to entertain, so in a way it makes no sense to fault the creative team for trying to give fans what they want.
ReplyDeleteHowever, like every artist, it's important that they remain true to their vision and don't alter it too much for crowd-pleasing purposes. The other issue, of course, is that there's rarely consensus about a topic among TV fandoms, and what seems to be the majority opinion is often simply the one held by the most vocal and passionate fans. So a creative choice meant to appease the fans at large is often going to have that effect on some, but piss off others. In that sense, you can't win and it's usually better to just stick to your guns. That's also why I think showrunners shouldn't engage with social media too much; sure, read SOME feedback, get a general sense of how people feel about the show, but don't get sucked into it or you won't be able to focus on your own organic narrative instead of constantly tailoring it to make fans happy.
In the case of AoS, I certainly think the massive backlash all over the internet about the lack of comic book characters in general and superheroes in particular has affected the showrunners' plans. Not that elements like Inhumans and Secret Warriors wouldn't have been introduced at all otherwise, but they're putting a bigger emphasis on it to try to address the criticisms. Is it a good thing or a bad thing? So far, they've been doing an excellent job, with or without regards to the superhero element, so I'm not complaining. And if they want Skye to go full-on Daisy Johnson (hopefully with the Quake moniker and the suit from the comics), I'll certainly give them the benefit of the doubt that it will be done in a believable way.
I'm curious what Bobbi is going to do now. It looks like they had to do a hasty change of plans when ABC passed on the spin-off, because the S2 ending with a mentally and physically broken Bobbi saying "I can't do this anymore" appeared to suggest that she was done with SHIELD. (Jeff Bell said that the line was deliberately ambiguous - was Bobbi referring to SHIELD or her relationship with Hunter? - but given the context, the former seems much likelier to me.) I imagine the spin-off was going to start with Bobbi and Hunter on their own somewhere, before being pulled into a new mission but not for SHIELD. With the two staying on AoS, however, that's unlikely to happen.
ReplyDeleteI actually think they have the potential for a really interesting story arc for her, where she questions her life as a spy and the choices she keeps having to make. She's betrayed people over and over again, from Hunter who she loves to her friends at SHIELD. And while we both feel that her choice to give up the safehouse location which ended up destroying Kara's life was understandable, given the circumstances, what happened in the finale might've been the first time she had to face the consequences of making such a choice. Kara's hate and desire for vengeance were obviously made worse by Ward's influence, but they would've still existed even if he wasn't in the picture. So I'd be really interested to see Bobbi deal with that guilt and re-evaluate her life. Sooner or later, being the person who makes those hard calls and possibly dooms others is going to catch up with you and heavily weigh on your conscience.
Yup, that was the sole weakness of S2A, that Whitehall was dealt with so quickly, out of nowhere, in the winter finale by Coulson, whom he'd never had an actual scene with, while Cal, who he actually had history with, was left with nothing. Aside from that, that half was top notch.
ReplyDeleteIt's funny you mention Arrow because that show is the main reason I'm still a little nervous about season 3 of Shield. For me, the moment they introduced superpowers and gave all the characters costumes and alter egos is the moment Arrow stopped being good. It became all about the source material and lost whatever identity it had on its own.
ReplyDeleteMy hope is that AoS is hyping these things to attract new viewers, but will continue to let everything develop at a natural pace. They've given me no reason to doubt them, especially considering the Stand with Ward folks are probably the most vocal part of the fan base and they still stuck to their guns and pushed Ward further into villain territory.
I still haven't gotten used to Nick's clean shaven face and the earring, I don't think I ever will. Brett is so cute and funny but just no on his Ward comments regardless of whether he means it or not, or is just throwing SWW a bone which might a bit worse (if he doesn't mean it) because it's disingenuous and misleading.
ReplyDeleteAnd What exactly are they pulling with Skye? They havejust begun starting to write the season you like us have ZERO idea about how they are handling such a transition. But don't let reality get in he way of the show you've imagined...
ReplyDeleteI think what Brett is trying to say is that he is playing the character as someone who is capable of redemption as opposed to characters like Whitehall and Garrett who were more sociopathic. While I agree with you that Ward is more of a villain than an anti-hero at the moment, that could always change. Plenty of villains have done things worse than Ward and still eventually redeemed themselves enough to reach anti-hero status. Whether or not Ward ever does redeem himself, I'm glad that Brett is taking that approach because even if he stays a villain, that makes the character more interesting.
ReplyDeleteThank you. Yes, they didn't reveal a lot in the way of new information. But I'm glad you enjoyed hearing from the actors about their characters and going forward in season 3. I did, too!
ReplyDeleteInteresting to hear what Ming thought about that, right? I'm eager to see how the team deals with the Inhumans, too.
ReplyDeleteAren't they so cute?! I love them, too! Here, here - bring on season 3!
ReplyDeleteFun to hear Brett talk about Ward's redemption. He convinced me. Like you say, when we give up hope, he swoops in and gives it back to us! I like your thoughts on John Garrett brainwashing Grant. I think it's going to be hard to get used to Skye using the name Daisy now, but we will see. I see your points on the name change. And I also hate it when shows bring up rape and then don't deal with it sufficiently.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Frizzy_Beast! So glad you liked the interviews. I also love this cast. Even more so now that I got to talk to them in person. They were fantastic. Makes me even more excited for season 3!
ReplyDeleteI think you're right! Looking forward to seeing if that will be the case. :)
ReplyDeleteThat's a bummer. And very weird! Hopefully you got to watch the other ones at home later!
ReplyDeleteI didn't even notice that on Luke's shirt. So funny! Glad you picked that up. But yes, you could definitely trade "voltage" for "hotness." Lol. That comment of him asking Henry if he had a cousin who could play Lash also cracked me up! Nick was really down to earth and funny. I loved meeting him. He and Adrianne had great chemistry! And Iain and Liz were too adorable for words. In person Liz's dress was cute and quirky. They do seem like their characters, don't they? OMG didn't even notice that he was wearing Ward's brown leather jacket. Love it!!
ReplyDeleteI think you hit the nail on the head with what he seemed to be saying. Great interpretation and description!
ReplyDeleteWow, you're so lucky that you got to talk to the cast. That must have been an amazing experience :)
ReplyDeleteIt really was! I was pinching myself. When Nick Blood sat down, he said, "You have a really big smile on your face." And I said back to him, "That's because I'm talking to you guys!" Lol. It was true, though, of all of them! What a fantastic experience.
ReplyDeleteI have to ask, how was rape dealt with insufficiently on AoS? They simply didn't mention it again after it happened. No one ever claimed that what happened between Lorelei and Ward was NOT rape. I'm trying to understand the problem here but I really can't. Plenty of bad things happen on shows and then don't get mentioned again, that doesn't mean the show is pretending that they aren't bad.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I much prefer Nick with the AoS beard, hopefully he'll grow it back when they start filming. Maybe it's just because I'm used to it, but I think some men have faces that are framed better with facial hair and he's one of them.
ReplyDeleteI have a feeling Brett and the showrunners are scared to go out and say in a completely blatant, decisive way, "Ward will NOT be redeemed; he's a villain", for fear of driving away the SWW fans. It's silly, frankly, because I can't imagine the number of fans who are militant enough about Ward needing to be redeemed that they'd actually stop watching if the door is firmy closed on that possibility is so high as to make a dent in the ratings. Heck, we all know that only a small group affects the ratings to begin with, and what are the odds that SWW folks have nearly as large a presence among Nielsen box owners as they do online?
It's kind of ridiculous that after what Ward did to Bobbi in the finale, it's even still possible ot dangle the carrot of his character being redeemed, but apparently - you see what you want to see and those fans will never, ever give up. The only problem is that those comments make me slightly nervous because I was 99.9% certain that the show isn't going to chicken out with Ward after the finale, and now I'm only 99% sure. Oh well.
I suppose this question depends largely on how you define an anti-hero, but Ward doesn't meet my own definition at all. I see an anti-hero as an "ends justify the means" character where the ends are good (or at least understandable), but the means aren't. Some examples: Emily Thorne (Revenge), willing to be cruel and cause collateral damage to get payback on the people who framed her father for terrorism and destroyed her childhood; Carrie Mathison (Homeland), who crosses just about every ethical line possible in her work for the CIA to try to prevent the next terrorist attack; Patty Hewes (Damages), an utterly vicious and ruthless attorney who nevertheless uses her power to fight corruption; or even our own Nick Fury, who sacrifices plenty of innocent lives in service of the greater good (we only recently heard how willing he was to sink the Illiad and kill thousands of agents to prevent Hydra from getting their hands on the Kree rock).
ReplyDeleteWard has mitigating circumstances to his villainy, having been abused, manipulated and shaped into who he is by others; that I'm aware of. He isn't Whitehall or Garrett. But that's still different from being an anti-hero, in my opinion, because none of the bad things Ward does are for a good cause. He may not hurt people simply for enjoyment, or even good old fashioned world domination, but he certainly has no noble motivation for it either. He's on some sort of psychotic journey to find acceptance/approval/closure/peace and will destroy anyone who gets in his way. That may be understandable and sympathetic to some degree, given the character's tragic backstory, but there's nothing heroic about it, hence not qualifying the character as an anti-hero as far as I'm concerned.
But mileage varies, obviously, especially with characters as richly drawn as the ones on AoS.
I think the better term to define Ward currently is ANTI-VILLAIN:
ReplyDeletehttp://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiVillain
I had no idea that term existed until I started reading TVTropes.org, but it's easy to see how it can be mistaken for anti-hero: both deals with characters who have somewhat good intentions but are willing to get their hands dirty in order to accomplish that, the big difference, I think, is how their actions affect the unquestionably good or evil sides. Ward, unintentionally or not, has always antagonized SHIELD in the past two seasons, so a hero he's not, but I think a case can still be made that all his bad actions were done for the sake of people he loves and cares about, though with a visibly deranged twist:
* Season 1 was about Garrett. His mentor was like a father to him, having "saved" him from the bleak future he had in front of him by gaving him new purpose in life, so he was all willing to do whatever it took to get Garrett the GH-325 formula he desperately needs to escape death;
* Season 2A was about Skye. He took it upon himself to get Skye the closure on her origins she longed for since ever. Sure, Skye didn't want any contact with Cal after witnessing how murderous her father could be and she most certainly would rather die than be grateful to Grant Ward of all people for the reunion, but the truth is, she was fooling herself if she thought she could live out the rest of her life without a heart to heart with her parents, her terrible life as an orphan was still an open wound no matter how much she wanted to spun that off, she needed closure on that and Ward knew it;
* Season 2B was about Kara. She helped him to heal from the four bullets wounds he got from Skye and he wanted to repay her kindness by bringing her back a sense of self.
Of course, the means to do those were not sympathic at all, doing a lot of damage to SHIELD in the process. Some of those I tend to think were unintentional - Fitz's brain damage and the attack on the Bus in the S2's winter finale come to mind - but he should've known better that his choices were BAD, BAD ones - in the case of the Bus attack, I think it'd have done his case wonders, or at least soften their bad impression of his actions, if he instead of taking Skye from them and leaving them to a token fate so fragile that was easily subverted by Whitehall he took Cal to the Bus, killed the HYDRA agents that came with them and worked with them to destroy the remaining jet fighters, because at least he'd have put himself in the line of fire as well -, while Bobbi's torture was most definitely a VERY, VERY BAD one that he got appropriate punishment for with him being used as the trigger to kill Kara.
By Season 3 he has lost everyone that ever loved him or cared about him, either because they died or turned on him. All he has left now is his rage on being used yet again to abuse someone he loved and vengeance againt those that tricked him into doing that is what'll motivate him in the first few episodes. Because of that, I don't think we'll be seeing the cold and calculating assassin Ward of previous seasons as much as we'll be seeing the chaotically violent one from "The Well" that came from him picking up the Berserker staff.
The thing is, if the endgame with Ward is for him to get increasedly more villaneous until he gets put down then SHIELD's doing a terrible job at stopping his rise into a supervillain because they wasted not one but TWO chances last season: Skye in 2x10 and Simmons in 2x19. Unless they want to portray SHIELD as inneffective at stopping dangerous threats I'm more inclined to think his story will take a completely different spin from midseason onwards.
ReplyDeleteI have to say, most of the examples for anti-villains that I'm familiar with from TVTropes merely seem like ordinary villains to me. The Mayor from Buffy, Gideon from Charmed, our very own Loki, freaking Sylar from Heroes?! If all it takes is a small humanizing factor, like the Mayor's affection for Faith, to make someone an anti-villain, the vast majority of villains qualify as such. It's really pretty rare, at least these days, so see a baddie who's a full embodiment of evil with zero redeeming qualities.
ReplyDeleteBut anyway, if we adopt the criteria that the anti-villain is a lighter villain to the anti-hero's darker hero, then I guess the term works for Ward. Although the line between anti-hero and anti-villain can get dangerously blurred. For example, Patty Hewes who I mentioned in my previous comment is an anti-heroine to me, but so ruthless sometimes that it wouldn't be unreasonable to label her an anti-villainess instead.
I'd say Ward is more like Faith than the Mayor. He's the result of tragic circumstances and bad decisions, but he's not inherently evil. However, there were times during Buffy's run where I considered Faith to be a villain, much like I consider Ward to be one now. Yet if we look at her arc in its entirety, I think she could be called an anti-hero.
ReplyDeleteRight now Ward is trying to validate his evil deeds, looking for an easy way out, just like Faith was, and Faith only managed to break out of her violent, self-destructive spiral with Angel's support. I think if Ward had someone like that, who's been through what he's been through and knows how hard it is to come back from the brink, but still encourages him to do so, he could follow suit and redeem himself to a degree. It's a shame we'll probably never get Black Widow on Agents of Shield because she would fit the Angel role pretty well if she were more connected to the show and the characters. In any case, if Buffy had ended at season 3, Faith would forever be remembered as a villain. If AoS ended now, the same could be said for Ward, but the story isn't over yet.
I don't think terms like hero, villain, anti-hero, and anti-villain are specific enough for Wards case, especially considering we've only seen part of his story. He is what he is. I think all of us disagree about terminology more than we do about the actual character. And while I might disagree with people like Klutzy-Girl about how and why Ward should be redeemed, and though I consider any possible anti-hero status to be largely speculation, I still think that would be the most interesting and satisfying route to take, provided the writers take their time and do it right.
Keep in mind that if Brett wasn't playing the character the way he is, we wouldn't be having these amazing, though at times admittedly frustrating discussions.
Yeah it was good, as I've said elsewhere I was hoping we'd also see a scene between Bobbi and Skye about the Cabin, but either way it's interesting to see the actors viewpoints on their characters.
ReplyDeleteThe Inhumans on the team are going to be very interesting, I mean Real Shield had Coulson's actions with Gifted as a reason to launch the Coup, now Bobbi and Mack have to deal with that actually happening.
They do seem to be a cast that gets on well with each other, which can only help the show.
ReplyDeleteWhile it might be a reaction I'm not entirely sure, I mean when you think about it accoridng to the panel at Comic Con, the screen test for FitzSimmon's was the scene in the Medpod. So thinking about it, if casting was done 6+ months before shooting started and that was the second last episode, they already had that scene written out over a year beforehand.
ReplyDeleteChloe's comments and others from the Showrunners have suggested that from the start she had been told that Skye was an established character and that 'Skye" was a part of moving towards that (and hiding her true history from the fans until they wanted). By pretty much the start of 1B they were already moving us towards Skye being "something" (ie an 084) so I don't think they've been pushed to much into superpowers by the fans, it was always something they planned to move towards.
Now of course it depends on how they develop Secret Warriors but that's just something we'll have to wait and see.
For Bobbi there's also the fallout from the torture and near death and most perhaps dealing with Jemma being "lost", so yeah I can imgaine her struggling to deal with everything if that's the way the writers want to take her character (and to be honest it would only be natural for the reason's youlisted as well). I wonder if the "I can't do this anymore" might be played off as doing undercover work perhaps (again I agree it was to be the set up of the spin off).
ReplyDeleteAnd completely agree with you about the number of great female actors that the show has and the value they get out of them, looking forward to seeing all of them continue to grow in Season 3...
I can see the Ward/Faith parallels, and truthfully, if I'd been part of the BtVS fandom back in the day (and if online fandoms even existed to this degree), people's support of Faith and insistence that she's redeemable might have driven me nuts too. Yet BtVS/Angel pulled that off and credibly redeemed her.
ReplyDeleteI think what sets Faith apart from most reformed villains - and makes her redemption arc work for me, whereas the majority of them fail - is that she accepted responsibility for her actions not only in the form of lip service. She actually turned herself in, went to jail and was prepared to spend the rest of her life there. So her crimes weren't conveniently forgotten as soon as she'd stopped committing them.
Well, if they want to eventually redeem him, they'd better get a move on it because the further into villain territory he goes, the harder it will be to convincingly bring him back, requiring even more time (which, given the ratings, the show's future beyond S4 is murky at the moment) and even better writing. That holds true even if you believe there's no "point of no return" when it comes to redemption.
ReplyDeleteAs I said, I do think the "super" element was always going to come into play, but since the backlash (which I find stupid, the show had many problems pre-Hydra but the lack of superheroes wasn't one of them) was so strong I find it hard to believe it didn't push them into developing it more quickly and making it a bigger part of the show. After all, the tagline we started out with was "not all heroes are super".
ReplyDeleteBut it doesn't matter to me anyway - whatever the creative process was, we ended up with a kick-ass second season, and that's what counts.
Oh, I definitely agree. I think ultimately it didn't happen in season 2 because they didn't want to revert his big character moment from season 1 so quickly and they didn't mind him going to the extreme of torture because he was always going to get a big punishment out of it with Kara's death by his hand. That said, Ward's stint as a villain is overdue for a resolution; I don't see it going beyond season 3, I definitely expect to get the endgame for that story when the show finally returns.
ReplyDeleteSo Chloe Bennet has just posted a clip showing her getting the Daisy Johnson haircut, wonder how long until we have another freak out about that😛
ReplyDeleteI wasn't talking specifics, just saying that in general I hate when I feel shows don't deal with the topic of rape sufficiently after introducing it. And klutzy_girl felt it was dealt with insufficiently on this show. So I was commiserating with her because I don't like it when I feel that way.
ReplyDeleteThat would be a nice scene between Bobbi and Skye. You never know. We could still get it. The things you mention about Real Shield make it all intertwined and therefore really interesting. I'm eager to see how Bobbi and Mack feel about everything going forward.
ReplyDeleteSo true!
ReplyDeleteLol. I'm eager to see what it's going to be like. She said it wasn't that short, so won't be like the comics. That would have been drastic!
ReplyDeleteI know I'm waiting for her to post an post haircut look. I wonder how long they were planning it, I know Luke made a comment on Twitter to her a while back about a haircut.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, thanks for the interview clips they've been great. But reminded me why I miss the show so much.
Yes, I want to see the post-haircut picture, too! I missed that Luke comment on Twitter. Interesting. You're very welcome for the interview clips. Glad you enjoyed them. I guess that's a good thing they reminded you why you miss the show so much! :) Lots to miss with this cast, right?
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