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The end. Dude, the stone didn't just explode or exude energy or control her - those I wouldn't have been super surprised by. The stone ATE HER. That wins.
Mostly everything from that damn finale was shocking for me haha, it was insane but I had so much fun with it! From Simmons getting sucked into that Kree weapon, Mack chopping off Coulson's arm to save him from being crumbled, Cal going through the TAHITI program and living a new life as a veterinarian, mostly all of the Inhumans that we know so far being wiped out, etc. What a rollercoaster of emotions but I loved every minute of it.
The whole season finale was shocking and intense. I absolutely loved it. So glad I gave this show a chance, I'm proud to say I was there from the pilot episode. If I really have to choose, I must to pick three: - The Kree Stone swallows Jemma- My mouth was wide open in shock for ages even after the episode finished. I never thought that would happen. - Cal kills Jiaying to save Skye-Really thought that Jiayang would survive and continue to be a villain in Season 3. - Bobbi takes a bullet for Hunter- I thought that Bobbi would be able to remove at least one of her hands out of her binds to reach her mouth piece (not sure if it was rope or tape) so she could stop Hunter from entering the room.
Season 2 was amazing. Can't wait to see what Season 3 will bring. *sad sigh* Such a long wait now...
Personally, I would consider AoS to be one of the few truly character driven shows on TV. One of the reasons I think it's so shocking is that they actually stay true to the characters and let the plot twists develop naturally.
No doubt the characters have changed, but there has always been a clear motivation for that change. I would agree that some of the characters are less likable now, like Ward and Simmons, but they are also far more interesting.
Coulson's hand and the kree stone eating Simmons were the most shocking, but I really enjoyed the scenes involving Cal and Ward. This show knows how to write compelling villains.
This, there are consequences for actions and growth of characters (whether we like it or not) as a result of their experiences. In other words a natural development. And honestly while he is evil I "like" Ward more than cardboard cutout agent Ward as the character has far more depth and value than Agent Ward.
Nobody got screwed over, before the finale you were anti Jiaying, but suddenly it's a major issue that she died? honestly KG I have zero doubt if Ward returned to the playground, you'd be sing praises of the episodes no matter what the rest of the body count, or how butched the characters would be for that to happen.
Shows and characters evolve and grow or they die, AoS has handled it far better than many shows, you just hate it because of your shipping getting sunk.
Definitely the ending with Simmons. Great episode overall but everything else, I basically expected or thought it was possible... the ending made me jump up and say WHAT THE FUCK?! and I had to rewind it just to make sure it actually happened.
Ha, when I submitted the poll I *totally* knew which two options would win. I voted for them too.
- The ending with Simmons was classic lure your audience into a false sense of security and then... BAM! Shit goes down. I'm pretty sure no one was expecting THAT to happen - something bad, maybe, but not Simmons getting freaking eaten by the thing. The fact that we have absolutely no idea what it means just makes it scarier.
- Coulson's hand was a great moment because it really felt like they were subverting our expectations. I don't know how many times I've heard the theory that Coulson is an Inhuman, or at least immune to the crystals, because he's undergone T.A.H.I.T.I. - and boy, does it ever get frustrating to explain to people over and over again what an Inhuman is, and that simply getting a tranfusion of Kree blood doesn't make you one. Still, when Coulson grabbed the crystal, I was totally expecting a reveal that he was an Inhuman like all of those folks predicted.... so when he started turning to stone, I was like "OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIIIIIIIIT" for 3 seconds - until Mack did the unthinkable to save him. Bravo, show - that was unexpected and brutal. Also, if the show doesn't chicken out a la Nikita and leaves Coulson handless next season, that's TWO main characters with disabilities on AoS, which is difficult to believe (in a good way).
Other good twists:
- Ward kills Kara - I expected her to die in the finale, but I didn't think it would go down like that, with May tricking her (awesome) and Ward ending up being the one to pull the trigger. Karma's a bitch, Grant.
- Jiaying kills Raina - again, at some point into their conversation it became clear that Raina was a goner, but they surprised me with Skye witnessing it... which made clear why Raina did what she did. Well-played.
- Cal having had his memories wiped - what a powerful conclusion to his story. I didn't expect that at all. Even during the goodbye scene with Skye, I imagined SHIELD was simply going to lock him up. So apart from being very bittersweet and touching, it was also quite surprising to me. And the clever writers once again get credit for the bait-and-switch: suggesting that Ward would get a T.A.H.I.T.I. memory wipe, only to do it with a different character.
- Bobbi takes a bullet for Hunter - I knew Hunter wouldn't die because the spin-off with those two was still on the table when this episode was being written and filmed, but again, that was pretty shocking and brutal on the show's part. I would've thought Bobbi and Hunter would somehow get out of it with both unscathed... well, unshot at least, since Bobbi was already pretty scathed, but you know what I mean.
All in all - even though I predicted most of the deaths in the finale correctly (which I'm shocked about by the way, LOL), I didn't see the way in which things would go down coming. Season 2 truly went out with a bang, just like Season 1.
This is something I've repeated over and over again as one of the main strengths of AoS. Apart from the cool mythology and the high-octane action and the awesome plot twists and all that, it's got living, breathing characters who actually feel like real people most of the time. Unlike certain other shows I could mention, AoS puts the characters first and doesn't let them behave completely out of character whenever it's needed to set up the latest plot point. It also keeps the relationships between characters realistic, which is why Coulson doesn't immediately bury the hatchet with May after he finds out she reported on him to Fury, for example. Granted, he gets over it fairly quickly, but only after he has the realization that HE's lying to someone to protect her in the same way May did for him.
She was someone I was pretty sure would die, but I still didn't anticipate HOW it would happen. If I had to guess, I would've probably said that she would die in the crossfire with SHIELD while they were trying to rescue Bobbi (serves me right for expecting this show to go the simple, predictable route, when they've proven over and over again that they don't DO predictable).
The way they did it is cleverer, because it really gets across the point of how twisted Ward is. If Kara died at SHIELD's hands, even though his relationship with her was brief and it would've been basically their own fault for kidnapping Bobbi in the first place, Ward going into revenge mode against SHIELD would be somewhat understandable. But when the guy plugged Kara full of holes himself, and his reaction is to blame SHIELD and go after them, you come to realize just how deep his inability to take responsibility for his actions goes. It's just not an option in Grant Ward's mind: he is merely the product of circumstance and if he does something bad, it's always someone else's fault for putting him in that position. Bobbi's analysis of him was spot-on in that regard.
It's a major issue Jiaying died so Cal - a comic supervillain - could get his redemption. It doesn't matter that I didn't like her. And oh, look at everyone telling me how wrong I was before the last few episodes about Jiaying being shady!
Coulson lost his hand for no reason we can figure out, May went off with her ex-husband right after this (who's supposedly in a relationship), Skye spent her whole life looking for her parents and they turned out to be horrible, Jemma got swallowed by an alien blob after turning into a mess in 2B, Fitz got spared somewhat, Bobbi got tortured for the plot only when she didn't have to be, and we all saw what happened with Ward.
Lincoln was only in a few episodes and barely did anything. Other shows can balance this many regulars but AoS has proven it can't.
And again, vilifying two abuse victims (Kara and Ward) is a pretty big problem that I still have.
Coulson losing his hand is because actions have consequences, the idea that the three agents could fight Gordon and win with no scarifices? THAT would have been bad writing, instead you have Coulson making the hard call knowing the risks and everyone including one of his strongest critics seeing his willingness to scrifice himself for Shield.
For May and Andrew, at no point did we find out WHO was in that picture, for all we know it was May, that he never gave up on her or their relationship, certainly both being in continous contact with her mum, and the chats at the base and the willingness to take her call before the mission suggests that he wasn't closed to her.
Skye, has the answers she wanted, along with closure good or bad. And actually saw the good side of Cal (and Cal isn't the first time AoS has deviated from the comics, infact they've made that clear (hell Skye is herself different from 616 Daisy).
Bobbi got tortured a) because it was most likely a) set up for the spin off and b) because it continues the well shown path of Ward and Kara getting "closure". As said before in these discussions, some abuse victims do move past their abuse, others don't, Ward has shown ZERO attempt from the day he broke out of the US transport to move beyond the killer that he has always been. Accept that that is the character that the show is giving you, they've had 1.5 seasons of showing you it at this stage.
We've heard your "I'm not the only one who feels this way" non-argument a thousand times already, and it doesn't validate any of what you said. I don't care how many Stand With Ward people on your timeline and Tumblr have (shocker!) the same opinion as you - all it proves is that you all share the same bias.
No one was out-of-character in the finale, au contraire: the showrunners didn't bend over backwards to service certain fan groups, as well they shouldn't.
Or the fallout when May finds out about the Theta Protocol, she reacts and the relationship between May and Coulson changes again. It's better than just handwaving every episode to artifically maintain a season 1 relationship 2-4 seasons in.
Or plot areas, that have been ignored for most of the season because it didn't fit a viewpoint, then suddenly "crap we can't avoid reality, this sucks!"
Not to mention FitzSimmons and the way it took them at least half a season to go back to what they used to be, after the traumatic event they went through in the end of S1 and then Simmons leaving.
I think the only real time the show let me down in this aspect was Hunter's reaction to Mack after the Olmost SHIELD mess. Hunter forgave Mack way too quickly. Not only did Mack betray his trust, he knocked him out, tied him up and essentially kidnapped him to the ship. That's not something you get over that quickly, let alone drinking with the guy like buddies afterwards. I can be a little more understanding towards what happened with Bobbi because Hunter wasn't going to forgive her that quickly, but then her life was in danger and he had to put whatever he was feeling on mute.
In the very next episode, Scars, they had Hunter's quick forgiveness of Mack explained as Hunter wanting to piss off Bobbi, so it's not like they were trying to sweep the consequences under the rug.
I liked Ward well enough when he was undercover, and in hindsight I think it says a lot about who he is by showing us that side of him. But you're right. Until we learned that he was with Hydra, the character was fairly limited. Now he has much more room to evolve. There are a million different directions he can go, which imo is more important than how likable he is.
Slightly off topic, but have you seen Daredevil yet? (mild spoilers below if you haven't) Because I think Ward and Fisk share a lot of interesting parallels. The only difference is that we're introduced to Ward as a good guy, while Fisk is established as a villain right from the start. I hope we see some more of Ward's childhood because.seeing Fisk as a kid rounded out his character perfectly.
Guess what? I'm not even a part of SWW despite loving Ward - neither are my friends - and we're still pissed.
And did you forget the multiple Ward haters I linked to that hated the finale for the same reason? When they think it's out of character, it's not just the Ward fans.
And no, they shouldn't use fanservice but they also shouldn't mock a fanbase because they crossed a line there.
How was any of that setting up the spin-off? I can't still figure that one out. What exactly were Bobbi and Lance going to do?
And the problem is with how the show treated their two canon abuse victims after acknowledging in interviews that both were abused. So many abuse survivors watch this show and were horrified to see what went down in the finale. There were better ways they could have done about this and the show could have handled it respectfully but they didn't.
Kara deserved better, Ward deserved better, they all deserved better than the crappy writing forced upon them.
I must have missed/forgotten that, thanks. I still think we should see some mistrust between the entire team, Hunter included, and Bobbi/Mack next season. While it's a very different situation from Ward, obviously, they still ultimately betrayed their friends, and that's never easy to remedy. (Plus, as we've discussed before - in the context of Ward, but it still applies - forgiveness is one thing, but re-establishing trust is another, and definitely more difficult.)
"I'm not part of SWW"? Wow. I don't even know who you think you're kidding now. Whatever.
There may be a few people who don't like Ward and still think he was badly written in the finale, sucks for them. The majority of the fandom, however, seems to think it's an excellent episode. (And while most people having an opinion doesn't make it true, the minority having it certainly doesn't, either...)
And the reason your fanbase was mocked is that its attitude is ridiculous, Ward could've killed babies in their beds in some episode and you'd still have said he needs to be redeemed and go back to SHIELD and Skyeward needs to happen. It was a wake-up call, and instead of listening, you're complaining about that along with everything else in the finale.
I was quite sure she'd take the bullet, but despite sort of predicting it, I still loved it! I was so happy that Lance and Bobbi got so much screen time.
Oh, I agree wholeheartly. Thankfully, the first episodes of new seasons aren't nearly as frenetic as the ones leading up to a finale, so hopefully they'll be able to deal with the theme of 'trust' repectfully when the show picks up again in September. They'll certainly need to, because you just know they are going to pull a "Lincoln has secrets" storyline if the ultimate intent is to reveal him as Thomas! :)
Speaking of that, I ended up writing a whole blog article about it, feel free to check out anytime: http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Demileto/Is_Lincoln_Campbell_really_an_alias_for_Thomas_Ward%3F
We saw Cal blame Jiaying on screen for all his actions and that's how she got sacrificed for his redemption. But God forbid Ward do the same (even though I don't agree with it) because evil!!!!!!!! No shades of grey on this show ever which irritates me.
Jiaying went on the murder spree (which I'm pretty sure that was confirmed?) with Cal after Skye was taken which I kept reminding people of and they said it didn't happen. She kept insisting no one know Skye was her daughter and oops, the door was open so everyone could find out. She was willing to let Cal go and innocent people die and had no problem with this. And this was all she murdered Gonzales.
And why exactly didn't Coulson call in Andrew to help Ward after THREE suicide attempts? That would have been the time but he apparently didn't psychological help was necessary. And neither Kara nor Ward seemed aware they needed actual help.
And yes, two abuse victims were vilified and that's all on the writers, not the characters. I know many of us were looking forward to a story where Kara and Ward started to heal from the abuse they suffered but instead they made them both appear crazy and it's sickening.
Not all abuse victims can be saved. It sucks, but it's the truth. For that to work, both of them MUST be open to be saved, that was not the case for either Ward and Kara: they both felt complete with each other even if their relationship was toxic, with each one fueling the other's inner darkness. One of them had to go for the other to have a chance, however small, of salvation, and the one chosen to pay the price was Kara.
They crossed a line they never should have crossed by mocking a fanbase when they didn't have to. They are fans of their show, and that's how they get treated? It's disgusting.
If anything, I'd say the biggest problem of the Ward/Kara subplot was that it took time from the far more interesting main storyline for the sake of a twisted love story. It was, however, an important stepping stone for Ward's character - Kara was the last shot he had of something good in his life, without her he only has his pain and the rage that comes with it left - so it had to happen.
I'd be more annoyed if there were perfect, fluffy resolutions for everything. Ward and Kara were abused, yes, but then they chose to be abusers themselves, becoming villains, so they had to pay a price for that.
Are the writers of Daredevil also guilty of vilifying abuse victims? How about Game of thrones, or Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or a hundred other shows that give their villains reasons for behaving the way they do?
Ah, once again, the art of taking things out of context. What Cal SAID about Jiaying's complicity doesn't matter. The reason why he could be redeemed is simple: he was crazy. None of the things he did were cold-blooded and rational. He lost his mind as a result of the tragedy that befell him. That's very clearly not the case with Ward, he may have some serious mental issues but you can't compare someone who is a good enough spy to infiltrate SHIELD for a decade with someone as obviously insane as Cal.
Jiaying and Cal never just went on a random murder spree. They were trying to find their daughter. Is it okay? Hell no. Is it pure evil? Again, no. I don't even know what you're trying to say about Skye being Jiaying's daughter, are you claiming that Jiaying set up that revelation while only pretending to Skye that no one could know? That makes no sense, because keeping it a secret was HER IDEA in the first place, not Skye's - there was no need for putting up a charade of hiding it and then accidentally letting it slip. As for Jiaying being willing to let Cal go and endanger other people - she couldn't keep him at Afterlife, what choice did she have? Against, she was being cold and practical in an attempt to keep her people safe. I'm not saying she deserved a round of applause for it, but it was hardly an evil act. A lot of leaders in areas of political conflict in the world make the exact same calls all the time: protect your own people first. She WAS a grey character until the Gonzales thing, maybe even until the finale.
I don't know why Coulson didn't call Andrew to treat Ward, but it's clear he had a lot on his plate in the beginning of the season, between trips abroad to build a Hellicarrier, fighting Hydra, evading the government/army and whatnot, and all on minimal resources. If this was a regular situation, I imagine Ward, like any other prisoner, would've gotten mental treatment as necessary, but SHIELD was stripped down to its bare necessities early in S2 so it's pretty understandable that Ward's mental state wasn't Coulson's top priority.
I'm not going to continue talking about the issue of "vilifying abuse victims". You're clearly only interested in repeating the same words over and over and over again, and stubbornly shut out everyone's responses unless they're in agreement. No one says that abuse victims can't get help and get better, that's just not what happened in this particular case. If you want an MCU example to the contrary, rewatch Guardians of the Galaxy and see how Gamora, an abuse victim of her "father" Thanos (who is the Big Bad of the entire MCU and 1000000000 times scarier than John Garrett), goes against him to help the good guys. She chose right, while other victims like Nebula, Ward and Kara chose wrong. That's life.
Right, because when characters do what you want them to (like Ward seemingly helping Coulson in "The Dirty Half-Dozen"), it's their own choice and the most wonderful thing ever, but when they don't, suddenly it's just because the evil writers made them.
I've heard this already. The point is, you used it as a reason to hate Jiaying, Cal and the Inhumans because you insisted that SHIELD only should be Skye's family (which: congrats, you got your wish on that one).
"Lincoln was only in a few episodes and barely did anything" That's true, and I'd even go further and state that he didn't even get the required character development in season 2 to justify his conception, let alone the actor's upgrade to regular status yet. The reason is clear for those who are open to see it: being secretly Thomas Ward, the character's big story is and has always been a season 3 one, but if they left his introduction for season 3 he'd be more of a supporting character for a Grant Ward story instead of being a character in his own right, who has just as much personal connections to everyone else in SHIELD as his Big Bad brother does.
I still don't understand what she means by "abuse victims were vilified". It can be read in two ways:
1. "The abuse victims became villains, and that sucks, I wish they had been redeemed." If that's what KG means, then all my sympathy, it's always a blow when you get invested in a character and then the show takes them in a direction you never wanted. Alas, it seems much more likely that what she means is:
2. "The abuse victims were portrayed as villains, which should never happen, abuse victims are never guilty of anything they do afterwards, they deserve to get better and live happily ever after even if they became unbelievably evil and hurt tons of people as a result of their abuse." Which... is short-sighted. Because the sad truth is, we live in a world where a LOT of abuse victims turn into abusers themselves, as you pointed out, and giving them a pass on their actions isn't going to help anything. Especially since you can't even draw the line properly: if you get into it, a HUGE portion of the people who do horrible things have some awful trauma in their past, so who has an excuse and who doesn't? In the end of the day, AoS simply portrayed a reality with Kara and Ward, a painful reality but one that's true nontheless: some people don't get help and get better after enduring such horrors. Instead, they only get worse and make others their own victims. I don't understand how acknowledging this truth makes AoS socially irresponsible or offensive. To me, it's just another example of KG twisting everything around, which has gotten beyond tiresome. There are shows and movies that deal with abuse in problematic ways - AoS isn't one of them.
To rephrase: I had her on the top of "people who might die" list, but I actually expected a different twist. I expected that the reveal would be that she manipulated him far more than the other way around. And that has nothing to do with being a Ward apologist, but having a villain which can be played by any actor of the show would have been a really smart long-term move. I also considered the possibility that Ward might kill her. I didn't expect though how it finally happened. It was so twisty and heart-breaking.
Interesting you should say this, because I've pointed out before that Fisk is the perfect example of how a villain - not a frenemy, not a grey character, an all-out vicious baddie - doesn't have to be a one-dimensional, boring character. Some are disappointed in Ward being a villain simply because they feel it sucks all the depth out of his character, but I don't feel that way at all. A villain can still be incredibly complex and not a mustache-twirling caricature. If the show knows what it wants to do with Ward as the Big Bad next season, unlike the fairly messy storytelling of Season 2 where he was concerned, Brett should have some awesome material to sink his actorly teeth into.
I guess, it also showed when she profiled Bakshi after interrogating him in "The Things We Bury". He didn't tell her much, but she managed to get enough cues from the little he did say, as well as his vocal inflections, body language and whatnot, to get a general idea of who he was. (Well, beyond what she already knew from when she worked with him at Hydra, I guess.)
I didn't hate pre-Hydra Ward as much as some, but I agree that he was pretty meh. That being said, like a lot of things on early AoS, Ward's character was something where we had to wait for the pay-off - and boy, was it worth it. If they hadn't spent two-thirds of S1 presenting us with a fairly bland, boy scout-ish Agent Ward, it wouldn't have been the shock it was when we learned the truth about him.
Agreed, but in Fisk's case I think it helped that he had a supporting cast of his own in Wesley and Vanessa, whereas Ward has no one to have interesting interactions with as a villain, separated from the team. They'll likely have to create one for the sake of his Big Bad storyline, but since the likelihood is that none of those brought in for his story will reach regular status I think it'll be increasingly hard to sustain his stint as a villain in the long run.
Good writing isn't always about giving the characters what they deserve. Kara's storyline was essentially a tragedy imo, but a well written one. Ward's is a bit more complicated, but I did feel sorry for him when he accidentally killed someone he cared about. Of course he was trying to kill May, so my sympathy only went so far.
Yeah, that IS a good point, makes me wonder who Ward will play off of next season. Hopefully, he won't just be sitting behind a desk and plotting evilly. Nor disappear for 5 episodes at a time - I may not be too fond of the character, but Brett deserves better (as many have said, TV is the one gig where getting maximum pay for minimal work isn't ideal...).
So Cal deserves a second chance after twenty-five years of murdering people but God forbid Ward who wasn't half as bad as him gets one? The show was built on second chances and everyone apparently deserves one but Ward (and Raina and Jiaying).
Oh, I don't disagree. Maybe it's arrogant of me, but at this point I don't even consider him not being Thomas a possibility, for me it's more of a case of WHEN the reveal will happen than IF, that's how strongly I feel about the theory.
I know they have to work hard for it. That's what I've been telling people for over a year. Redemption isn't supposed to be easy and it's a long path and Ward needs to make a lot of apologies to the team but I don't seem how redemption is even possible now.
Plus, not all characters are that important and get tons of awesome stuff to do. Lincoln, at least so far, is what, a tertiary character? His presence was at least justified by the fact that SOMEONE from the Inhumans had to open his/her eyes to Jiaying's plan in the end and help SHIELD, which in turn makes at least one potential member for Skye's Secret Warriors next season. I agree, he's had minimal development so far (although I liked his dorky sense of humor in his first episode, "Afterlife", I'd like to see more of that!), but it hardly strikes me as something deserving of so much scorn. If he was a, say, Fitz, May or Hunter level of character in importance, then I'd feel they're really slacking off with him.
So why are the AoS writer's guilty. Fisk was abused as a kid and he became a villain. That applies to nearly everyone on Game of Thrones and a good handful from the buffyverse. What's the difference?
Cal's chance came after Skye got to know him better and see for herself that he's not this Big Bad Wolf she originally thought he was, so there's that. Ward's different, he had it and he blew it by betraying them, it'll be MUCH, MUCH harder for him to get a second chance, as it should be.
25 years of murdering people, seriously? You have no idea what Cal's body count is. Aside from the supposed massacre Cal and Jiaying committed while looking for Skye, the details of which are murky at best, how many people has he even killed, exactly? I remember the two guys who came to him for treatment in "A Hen in the Wolf House" (clearly striking out in rage) and a few Hydra goons. There was one guard that was killed when Cal's supervillain team broke into that psychiatric institution to save David Angar, although Karla killed him, not Cal.
Ward, meanwhile, has Nash, Hand, Hand's two guards, two guards at the Fridge, Eric Koenig, possibly police offers in "Nothing Personal" and the guards at his transport in the end of "A Fractured House", his parents, Christian, the guy who made Kara's mask, two soldiers at Talbot's base, and the attempted murder of Fitz, Simmons, May and Hunter/whoever entered Bobbi's room. Seems to me like Ward's got the advantage here, unless the show ever goes out and says, clearly, that Cal and Jiaying murdered scores of people (and I mean actual murder, not any form of self-defense).
Anyway, the more important point here, which I've already made but you ignored (as usual), is that Cal is insane, and every bad things he's done was lashing out of that insanity, while Ward is perfectly cold-blooded and rational. He knows what he's doing. He's capable of planning things in advance. None of his murders were while in a fit of rage, not knowing what he was doing: they were calculated moves in pursuit of his mission, whatever it happened to be at the moment. So yes, Ward is much worse than Cal.
And by the way, Raina, too, was redeemed in the finale. Yes, it was a redemption by death, but she did the right thing in the end by sacrificing herself so Skye would know the truth and stop Jiaying.
The difference here is that John Garrett kidnapped a fifteen year old abuse victim then proceeded to emotionally and physically abuse Grant until the day he died. He never got a chance to heal and become a better person. Hell, he's still unaware that Garrett even was abusive in the first place. Being abused all his life isn't an excuse for his actions but they definitely explain them and he needs a shitload of therapy.
Kara was brainwashed and victim blamed for her actions and made to look crazy when she could have healed too.
Really, so you missed the whole "I can't do this anymore" from Bobbi, most likely she was going to leave shield with Hunter (as the comics did) or just leave the team. It perfectly set up them reuniting (getting past Hunter's anger with ehr and admitting he still cared, while showing her willing to die for him).
If loads of abuse survivors do watch this then they know that some continue to abuse. It wasn't the finale. Ward had shown ZERO attempt to change, to grow, to be a better person at any point. All he showed was a comlete inability to take responsibility for his actions/choices/consquences.
It WAS NOT Crappy writing, it was just writing that you've been ignoring for over a season!
You haven't explained how Ward is any different from Fisk. If you've watched Daredevil, it's pretty clear that Fisk is an abuse victim as well, both physically and emotionally. In fact, the way his father forced him to beat up a bully because he wasn't strong enough, supposedly, is quite similar to Garrett needling Ward about his "weakness".
A good point about Fisk and Ward, of course the other major difference is that Fisk by the end has fully accepted that he has always been the bad guy, he may not have seen it before but in the back of the truck after being arrested he does.
Where as with Ward, we still see him blaming anyone and everyone else for his actions. He knows he's not a good guy, but he's incapable of understanding that he's a bad guy IMO.
I think you are too attached to the idea Ward needs to be redeemed or the Ward version you read on fanfictions and until you see that the show is bad. This was never guaranteed for him. Could still happened but seriously, would have been so freaking boring if they suddenly made him good again. He got arrested and then he would spend his season 2 proclaiming his love to Skye and trying to get back to the team so they can be a family again. So boring. He would be back to being the silly Ward from first half of season 1. The MCU have characters with bad past who get redemptions arcs and others who don't. The people who created Ward don't want that for him (for now). You just need to accept and move on. You can keep watching or not but if you don't get what you want and continue to crap on the show its just silly.
Garrett is not the big abuser here, the family is. I daresay the impact of Garrett's abuse will end up being rather irrelevant compared to what happened in his family life when we finally find about it.
Both the family and Garrett are the big abusers, tbh. However, it sounds like Mama Ward (I'm worried she and/or Garrett may also have been sexually abusive), Christian, and Garrett were the worst.
I didn't want that because redemption isn't supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be a long path and Ward has a long to make up for and I was looking for the redemption arc starting in season two not for everything to go back to normal.
Except that Ward was completely broken as a person when John Garrett took him as an apprentice, he was beyond caring about anything anymore, so he didn't mind Garrett's abuse. The family, thus, is the bigger abuser here.
He wasn't also introduced as the boring company guy who was playing everybody. Ward was and that was the version his fans liked and thinks its real. If the guy is introduced as "good" with bad past then he deserves to be redeemed but if the villain is introduced as bad from the get go people don't care for them.
It honestly seems like he hasn't even realized yet that Garrett was abusive and that's just sad.
And honestly, I haven't been able to shake the feeling for a long time that Mama Ward and/or Garrett were sexually abusive. I'm worried about it especially since Grant is a thirty year old man who literally can't say the word "sex".
Victim blaming means she was blamed specifically for the terrible things that happened to her. Kara was blamed for her actions that were a byproduct of her brainwashing. There is a difference.
And based on what was shown, I would say Garret manipulated Ward, abused is a bit of a stretch. He very well could have, but there's no concrete evidence of it. Because we don't really know the extent of the abuse done to either character, it's impossible to say who had it worse, Ward or Fisk. But both shows writers clearly established abuse took place and just because the degree of it may differ, the outcomes are very similar, so I have a hard time seeing how one handled the subject well and the other didn't
And what has Ward done so far to indicate that he wants to change, pray tell? Every single "good" action of his has had some sort of personal agenda behind it. Even when he supposedly helped Coulson out in 2x18-9, we found out it was all a ruse to get Kara into SHIELD so she could kidnap Bobbi and have her little "closure" session with her.
Or maybe I should ask a different question. If, hypothetically (we all know it's not actually going to happen), Fisk decided that he wanted to reform in Season 2 of Daredevil, would that be fine with you? If not, why? How is he any worse than Ward?
I think ultimately it didn't start in season 2 is because a) it wasn't all that long ago that Ward being revealed as a villain breathed life into the character, so they couldn't very well backtrack from that so quickly and b) the season was choke full of things to cover already and Ward's story deserves much, much breathing room to be handled with respect. Season 3, however, I think we'll finally get the story of the family, if only because it's the last of the four big character mysteries that's still unanswered after two seasons, the first three being Coulson's ressurection, Skye's origins and May's Bahrain incident.
Imagine how boring the show would have been if Ward started a silly redemption arc on 2x01 and back to the team being the same old boring Ward from the season 1. Ward might not have the best use and development on season 2 but his fans vision of how the show should have handled him is boring and bad. The nice little family thing from early season 1 was nice to some extent but got boring really fast.
It's one of the things that are really annoying about shipping: some shippers become so obsessed with their favorite pairing, they end up considering it the be-all, end-all of the show. As such, the entire show should be twisted around to accommodate it. Case in a point, a bunch of fans became smitted with Skyeward in the early portion of Season 1 and were going to stick with that pairing no matter. So when Ward was revealed as Hydra, did they give a shit? No. Not enough to realize that their ship has become invalid, at least. Instead, they began to demand a redemption and for Skye to become a ridiculous Bella Swan/Elena Gilbert clone who's willing to put aside all of the blood on Ward's hands because damn, he's just so irresistible.
There are sensible shippers, who get it when the show goes a direction that sinks their ship and move on, possibly to fanfiction. They don't pretend that their ship can plausibly still happen in show canon, or should. But then you have the rabid shippers I mentioned above - to them, the ship MUST happen no matter what. Hence all of this howling and moaning about how the show is crap because it's doing things that are hurting Skyeward's prospects.
"If a male character is shown not jumping at the chance to have sex with someone (female), he will be gay. Or Mistaken for Gay - the latter scenario can be Truth in Television. This is also one if not the defining factor of Double Standard: Rape, Female on Male; the idea that men cannot be raped by women because no man could ever be unwilling to have sex."
I agree. Simmons from season one was very cute and all but people honestly think she should continue to be that girl forever especially with their world constantly changing and people dying around her? that would be silly. Thre was nothing worng with her development. I just think she could have used more screentime but it wasn't out of the blue and Ward pre Hydra reveal was the most boring character by far.
How is he not as bad? Handed over gifted to Hydra, most likely killed some of them, betrayed Shield at all times (who knows how many innocent died as a result), killed agents in the Fall, helped release the some of Shields most dangerous prisoners, gave Hydra extremely dangerous tech, killed US service personnel, his family... Serioursly how do you twist it so his hands are clean.
Ward doesn't get a second chance because at no point has he made a single attempt to be anything other than what he is. Even when he was in Shield holding he only gave up information to buy time with Skye rather than thinking, lets help the good guys...
Yes it does, Bobbi had shown issues with how the whole Shield/Real Shield played out, she had issues with how Hunter was taking it, she then scarficed herself for Hunter and is badly injured, along with the evaluation that Andrew did. To me that was clearly the set up out for the two if things had gone ahead.
They definetly need to plan the characters arc better. All of them, especially now with more regulars. If they do that the season will be fine. I expect they will give more for Ward on S3. They saved his character during S2 so better have a good pay off now and they will definetly need to introduce strong secundary characters for him because right now is everyone team SHIELD against Ward.
Ward knows that he's not a good guy, if any part of him wanted to be better and have a chance to do something better in his life he should have taken it.
Where in anything since the Fall of Shield has Ward demonstrated for one moment that he wants to change? Nothing, not even finally giving intel to Shield was done because he wanted to help, it was all for him (getting time with Skye).
The situations are the exact same, but as Alex pointed out, you aren't basing your position on what the character is.
Every single "good thing" Ward has done has had an agenda behind it, it's amazing that people can keep claiming that he's done good so he was on the path to redemption, and suddenly the show did a 180 and made him fully evil in the finale.
As you point out, the information he gave Skye could've just as easily been given to Coulson weeks before. Why did he wait until Coulson sent Skye to talk to him? Easy: 1. He's obsessed (ah, "in love") with Skye, so any excuse to see her would've worked in his book. 2. He knew Skye would be by far the easiest person to manipulate, because of both the fact that she used to have feelings for him AND the information he had on her family. If Ward had really wanted to change, help SHIELD and make amends, he would've told Coulson everything the latter wanted to know as soon as he got the opportunity.
Taking Skye to her father - I'm still stunned that shippers refer to this as a good thing Ward did or a profession of his love for Skye, seriously? Yeah, he kidnapped her and FORCED her to meet her father, which she didn't want considering she believed Cal to be a complete monster at that point. How romantic!
Helping SHIELD in 2x18-9 - one, he had no choice (Coulson threatened him), and two, we soon found out it had been a ruse to plant Kara inside SHIELD so she could kidnap Bobbi.
Seriously, if people could give me one example, ONE, of something Ward has done since the Hydra reveal that would indicate he was trying to change and be a better person - something truly selfless - I'd love to hear it.
Totally. Good guy killing those big bad guys? No problem! but good guys killing the bad guys who are very good looking but once played like a good guy? its villified abuse victim. He didn't have a chance! oh, those people see skyeward from seaon one as one true love even though they barely had a developed relationship. Lincoln the new guy? he doesn't matter. Its not true love. It so damn silly. People take shipping way too seriously. I wonder if those people would run away from a relationship like skyeward on real life or not.
Everything that happened to Coulson and the other T.A.H.I.T.I. patients was because of GH-325 itself, not because of the memory wipe. They only even had their memories wiped as a response to the craziness that the alien drug caused (notice how Coulson only starts to go crazy after he gets his memories back in the end of "Nothing Personal"). Cal was never given the drug, only the memory wipe (and the same was supposed to be done with Ward), so there was no reason to believe it would harm them in any way.
Exactly, you have Coulson saying "I sat in this chair for weeks" and Ward said nothing to him, at a time when any bit of information could have made the difference, ie just maybe if Shield had the Hydra comm codes they might have been able to stop the raid of Kara's safehouse... Instead as you pointed out he kept quite knowing that eventually Coulson would send Skye. Yeah nothing Good in that.
As for Skye's trip to Cal, not only the points you raise (including dropping in the middle of a full Hydra base (how short of Shield coming was she meant to get out of there alive?) there's also the point that he knew Hydra was going to attack the plane once he exposed it, thus endangering the rest of the team. Again struggling to find the good/redemption in that action.
2.18/19 like you said, all a compeltely different agenda with nothing to do with redemption.
As for the question raised further down as to why Coulson didn't get him a shrink, a)resources, b) trust, c) why should he? Seriously, what did Coulson owe Ward at that point, Ward wasn't an intel source, he wasn't helping the team with anything. Given the terrible state Shield as Coulson knew it was in, why should he expend very short resources on a man that everyone in Shield loathes? It's a hard question but it has to be asked, what entilted Ward to said resources?
He said at least two times that he wasn't a good man and there wasn't good left in him and his action tells us that. I don't remember a moment where Ward actually said he wanted to change or show he might change. He just said he missed his team so i don't know where exactly his fans see him wanting to change so he deserves a redemption arc and Fisk doesn't so fuck him he is a villain.
I really hope so. But the sad truth is, I feel like so many good-looking male characters (some examples other than Ward: Hook on Once Upon a Time, Damon on The Vampire Diaries, Klaus on TVD/The Originals, Spike on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Chuck on Gossip Girl) getting a pass on all the awful things they do in the name of being "hot bad boys" represents our culture. So it wouldn't surprise me if some of the folks who are happy to brush all of those actions off are susceptible to getting into abusive or at least dysfunctional and healthy relationships in real life. They may not forgive actual murder, but God knows a *lot* of people who have abusive spouses say the kind of "he's good deep down, he doesn't mean it" shit that is used in Ward's defense.
By the way, I'm not saying this never happens with female characters. If you look at Regina on Once Upon a Time, she's certainly done a hell of a lot of horrible stuff and everyone still wants her to get a happy ending. However, the "hot bad boy" seems to be a major trope and you see a lot more of them in TV/films (whereas when a woman does anything nearly as bad, the character tends to be hated by the viewers). And in a pretty repulsive way that sets feminism back about a century, a lot of teenage girls and young women seem to really buy this crap. I'm not trying to stereotype because I knew plenty of women HATE it, but sadly, there appear to be enough who feel otherwise because we just keep getting those characters.
Exactly, you summed it up Ward has given no suggestion that he intends to change, no really example of him understanding that he's wrong (even his "team talk" was mainly blame everyone else).
There is ZERO difference between Fisk and him or any other number of characters across a wide range of shows.
I totally agree on that last point. In an ideal world, even prisoners who have committed the most heinous crimes would get mental help when it was needed. However, Coulson was certainly NOT living in such a world in early S2, as we've both said he was working with minimal resources and God knows the last thing he had time for was calling Andrew to treat a prisoner. Hell, even Fitz, a member of Coulson's team who clearly needed some sort of help to deal with his newfound disability (and his emotional state following his best friend leaving), wasn't being treated by anyone. Why would Ward, someone who was of no use to Coulson at that point?
I want to know too. I'm thinking hard but i can't come up with one. Ward had the chance to start over when he was arrested. Garret was dead, the guy who had over power over him. He could have actually helped and rebuild trust during that time. Nobody helped him because he never showed any signs of change.
It's a pretty important distinction, really: Ward isn't sorry for what he did, he's sorry for the consequences of it. He wishes he could still be a part of the team and everything like he told them in "The Dirty Half-Dozen". But ultimately, he just sees it as "shit happens", not as something he's actually responsible for. Ward has yet to utter one sincere apology, there's always an asterisk: "Yeah, what happened sucks but it's not my fault anyway..."
There's also the point that Andrew to me seems to specialise in the more "unique" mental health issues (ie Gifted, Life after Death, computer programs for mental issues) rather than a day to day shrink.
But yes again, Coulson is throwing lab staff into undercover ops against Hydra because he didn't have anyone else, he has Fitz still trying to work because he doesn't have anyone else to run the Labs.
Coulson was under no obligation to bend over for Ward when Ward wasn't even acting as a source of intel.
Also, your original point wasn't even about the villains wanting to change, it was about the "vilifying abuse victims" dead horse that KG won't stop beating. If Ward is an abuse victim who's been vilified by his portrayal, so is Fisk. There's no room for double standards here. However, as I've said, since Fisk isn't young and hot (in a conventional way - anyone who's attracted to Vincent D'Onofrio, good for them!) and isn't part of some stupid ship, it's totally okay that he's an abuse victim who became a villain. Whereas with Ward, it's offensive to abuse survivors everywhere.
Why? Give us 1 single example of Ward actually being a "Good Guy" post the Fall? Show us 1 point that he has no ulterior motive, no game plan, where he is willing to scarifice for one of the team without wanting something from them?
In 1.22 Coulson challenged Ward to define himself without Garrett, Season 2 showed who that person is.
I also think people are naturally more forgiving towards family and see the good in them more than others would. So Skye was obviously inclined to forgive Cal and want him to get some sort of happy ending despite the many horrible things he'd done. And in turn, if Coulson didn't care so much for the well-being of Cal's daughter, would've played with kid gloves for as long as he did when it came to Cal.
On that May/Andrew point, another thing that's unclear to me: was it ever said outright that Andrew was joining May on her vacation? I can't remember a line about that for the life of me. I think some are just assuming it because of Andrew's voice-over over May packing her bathing suit and leaving. For all we know, she's going alone.
I think it's also possible that in addition to the physical trauma of the torture and being shot, facing the reality of what she did to Kara was emotionally traumatizing to Bobbi. She's used to making hard calls as a spy but this is the first time she saw the results with her own eyes, the hate and anger towards her that Kara had, how damaged Kara was. Now, obviously that doesn't make what Kara did to Bobbi right, but it forces Bobbi to face the reality of the repercussions her "hard calls" have. So in addition to the SHIELD/Olmost SHIELD situation, and the fact that she had to betray Hunter who she loves, I think Bobbi was torn down and broken in the end and just wanted to quit the spy life. I imagine the spin-off would've started that way, with her somewhere far away and quiet, just trying to live a normal life again, with or without Hunter, and then she gets approached for a mission or something and therefore sucked back in. (Yeah, it's a cliche but whatever, LOL.)
True, his comments to Jemma for example. In terms of Skye forgiving him, I think it was the combination of actually seeing him as "stable" where he wasn't a horrible person (and learning the facts that he got screwed by life), along with his act to save Skye from having to kill Jiaying).
Good point, it is an assumption, I think based off them breaking in to Coulson's office to get drunk, which does suggest at least something might have changed between them.
Oh yeah, there's that. Well, personally I'd be entirely up for a Melindrew reunion (I feel like their personalities balance each other out nicely and Blair Underwood is just so charming), although it's hard to imagine a happy long-term couple on this show. The reason KG pointed this out as a bad thing, though, is that Andrew is supposedly engaged. So I'm just saying that even IF Andrew is engaged, we still don't know for sure that he joined May on her vacation, so I'm not ready to announce May as a homewrecker just yet.
I SO wish there would be a hidden scene of them breaking into Coulson's office like mischievious little kids on the Blu-Ray, or something. That would SLAY.
That would be funny as hell, kind of like the cut scene in the Hub where May is doing he Tai Chi and Jemma comes in after shooting Sitwell: "I shot somebody!", "Where's the body?" I wish they had left that it.
Long shot, not sure if it fits perfectly, but maybe, just maybe, he doesn't seem like he wants to change because deep down he believes he deserves to die for what he did to Thomas so he keeps upping his ante in the hopes that someone finally pulls the trigger?
Every time I try to understand why Ward is the monster he is I keep going back to his relationship with his little brother and my current headcanon is that he loved Thomas, it tore him apart to be forced to abuse him so much and he believes now to have lost his little brother forever with Thomas supposedly having commited suicide (a possible interpretation of Gordon's 'you know how far she'll go to protect her people' to Lincoln if he is indeed Thomas), thus he feels himself to be 'hollow'. It'd be fitting, then, if Grant was suicidal to a point but can't bring himself to do it and wants others to do it for him.
Quick question, but I can't recall it ever being stated that he was engaged... He said he left for a reason which was related to the photo on his desk but I don't recall anymore than that. And I still think it could be a nod to the relationship (ie he left because of what it cost May. If he was engaged, the whole having dinner/phoning the ex's mother takes on a whole stranger tone to me.
As screwed up as it was, he did try to help Kara find closure (God, I hate that word) for her brainwashing and torture at the hands of Hydra. And again, not the best move and it backfired and he shouldn't have done it but he did help Skye find one of the parents she had spent her whole life searching for her.
Very true, Simmons has been through significant;y stressful situations (the pod, undercover, dealing with Fitz, Trips death) along with the fact, being Sci-Tech she probably does have a good idea of how bad it can get when Gifted go bad. Her both struggling with this and going darker for all the losses makes sense.
That's it? Those are what you consider "Good" actions...
I honestly don't know how to respond to that, none of those things either in what they cost or what the fallout for them were good., and if you think they were I'd have to seriously question your judgement.
I can't remember either. It was only when KG cited Andrew joining May on vacation (?) despite being engaged (?) as Reason #69305780 Why The Finale Sucked that this even came to my attention.
His behavior with May is definitely strange and inappropriately flirty if he's with someone else.
Well, he was in jail and then missed like eight episodes and we were just supposed to accept that he had all this character development or whatever off screen.
He hasn't had any character development, he has shown no difference from the man that killed Hand, tried to kill FitzSimmons to the man that tried to kill May. That's the point he's not changing, he's simple embracing what he is.
I'd even argue that she's still one of the more levelheaded and likable characters on the show. She got darker, true, but at the end of the day she's still Simmons.
Eh, in hindsight it was, it was the first contact between father and daughter, they wouldn't have been able to develop a loving relationship later if Ward hadn't got them to meet.
That said, Ward did that out self-interest, he expected Skye to disregard every bad thing he did to be with him again as a result.
But the Bus might have been shot down killing everyone on board, Ward delievered her to a Hydra base (with no example of how to get her out of there safely), Whitehall could have killed her, and Trip died as a result.
That's a boatload of negatives some of which Ward knew he was risking (the bus and the Hydra base dangers)...
Kara was the only person around who could help Ward before he bled to death from being shot 4 times and nurse him back into health, so he latched onto her - a vulnerable, confused woman - with a promise of helping her find herself. You might say "Why didn't he just dump her afterwards?" - well, for one, it's possible that he genuinely developed feelings for her (hence his grief in the finale after he kills her), but it also sure can't hurt to have a highy skilled agent who's completely loyal and devoted to you as a sidekick. All in all, hardly selfless.
I don't even know what to say about the Cal thing. Ward KIDNAPPED Skye at GUNPOINT to take her to her father AGAINST HER WILL. Which, her father was at Hydra's HQ, which meant a very high chance of Skye not getting out of there alive, you know. And he did all of that after leading Hydra to the Bus, so Skye's five friends and teammates on that plane were essentially fish in a barrel. That's a sign of unhealthy, dangerous obsession, not of trying to reform and be a better person. That you can seriously reduce something like that to "not the best move" and still claim to be objective and sensible on the topic of Ward's actions is quite telling.
It's already been pointed out that if Ward was trying to change or reform, he could've cooperated with Coulson fully while in prison. Instead, he made Coulson sit in front of him for 3 weeks without saying a word, until Coulson had to send Skye - someone who A) Ward is obsessed with, so he obviously fancied any interaction with her and B) Ward could try to manipulate, given her past feelings for him and his knowledge about the family she was searching for.
But Ward, like every character, should be judged on what the likely outcome was from his perspective when he acted, not on what the outcome actually ended up being.
From Ward's POV, since he knew Cal was essentially a monster, there was no reason to expect that he and Skye would develop a positive relationship. And more importantly, the points sparky made: Ward was taking Skye to a HYDRA BASE - how likely was she to get out of there in one piece? - while leaving her 5 friends to die on the Bus. Sure, Ward himself didn't give the order to shoot the Bus down, but how much time could that really have bought the SHIELD crew? They were still fish in a barrel once Hydra had located the Bus - thanks to Ward.
So really, I don't understand how this can be seen as a good deed on Ward's part. It's more like yet another bad deed in a long line of them, which ended up leading to something good (Skye and Cal's relationship) because the stars aligned that way.
Hell, now that you mention it - once Whitehall figured out who Skye is, he wanted to subject her to the same sadistic experimentation that he'd performed on Jiaying. Ward's actions could have led to THAT.
But he's a poor misunderstood puppy, right? Jesus Christ.
Yeah, but the reality is that Skye could have lived out a full life as an Agent without ever touching on her Inhuman side (or at the very least done so in a safer environment). I really think that it's reaching far to suggest that it was a "good" action, at the very most it was a Grey call that exposed Skye to massive danger that Ward had no way of managing.
The way I see it, Ward's stuck in a vicious cycle of justifying past misdeeds by committing worse ones. I think at his core is a person with a strong sense of right and wrong, but because of that, he can't stand to take responsibility for what he's done because it's so awful. That's not an excuse for his behavior, far from it. If anything I think he got worse over the course of season two. In late season one you could see genuine conflict and regret for his actions, but by season two he had started to rationalize it to the point that he could bear it, which became a slippery slope and really twisted him up. On some subconscious level, he wanted to help Kara because if she could get closure by torturing Bobbi, he could justify murdering his family. Again, twisted.
Ward ordered that the plane not be shot down and yes, I really don't like that he kidnapped Skye but in his messed up mind (because he never got any therapy after a lifetime of abuse and three suicide attempts) he was trying to help. And she shot him for it so he paid for his actions.
Oh, but Ward would have managed to break out the "Black widow" level of skill (which he never had but hey) and safe her... Except he couldn't do that with Cal and Skye trying to fight as well. Without Shield raiding the base Skye would have died a horrible death as a result of Ward.
You might as well use that as an excuse for every single thing he's done, then. Which brings us back to "Ward isn't responsible for anything, ever, he's just a victim".
You're actually ridiculing abuse, not making people take it seriously, by using it as a knee-jerk reaction to defend every single thing Ward has done. "Why didn't he just give Coulson intel?" "Abuse!" Are you for real? There's zero connection between that and the fact that Ward simply didn't take ANY opportunity he's had to turn a new leaf.
I don't think anyone's arguing that point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your main issue is that none of the other characters tried to help him. That might not make them saints, but is it so unbelievable that after everything he'd done to them, they didn't want to help?
Ward didn't follow Whitehall's order for the plane to be shot down, but he knew full well that Hydra had located the Bus - with his help. How long was it going to take before Whitehall had figured out that Ward had disobeyed his order and proceeded to order the shoot-down of the Bus himself? He left May, Hunter, Trip ahd the Koenigs to die. The difference between ordering it himself and leaving it to Whitehall/whoever is like the difference between shooting someone and handing another person the loaded gun. He just didn't want to feel personally responsible, but he knew the likely outcome would be the same.
And as I've just written in another comment, if you think the abuse is a blanket excuse for everything then there's no point even having a discussion: Ward could commit a genocide and you still wouldn't care. The point is, the man who was rational and sane enough to infiltrate SHIELD in Hydra's service for a DECADE, who has the highest espionage marks since Romanoff, a top-tier field agent, clearly knew better than to kidnap someone to force upon her a reunion with her father, technically a monster. He just didn't give a crap about the morality of that action, or lack thereof, because he's not a good person.
And then just shrugged his shoulders when informed that Whitehall ordered it shot down. He didn't care about the lives that he potentially killed. As May said, everyone on the team, hell probably everyone in Shield has truamas, didn't make them Ward.
If BlackWidow can find her way to the right side with actual brainwashing/programming, Ward has ZERO excuse (love how you've now latched on to the Suicide attempts as another "Poor Ward" gambit btw).
Oh c'mon, Ward just pretended not to be able to save Skye from Whitehall because it was the midseason finale and he knew everything had to be dramatic and shit. When the time comes, he'll show us he's even more badass than Black Widow (pffft) and save Skye in a glorious fashion before she inevitably falls for his charm.
My original point was that Ward had never done anything to indicate that he's trying to change and be better, and I cited not giving Coulson intel (instead waiting until Coulson sent Skye to him) as an example of that. So KG's retort was, of course, that Ward is an abuse victim and can't be held responsible for anything, ever. I guess that in that case, he doesn't need to actually DO anything to prove that he's on the path to redemption (anything would be too much of a demand from poor Ward), we're just supposed to believe it for some abstract reason.
Everyone's traumas were different. That's the point. Not everyone went through the same thing despite experiencing these things and they all dealt with it in different ways. None of them were abused all their lives and everyone on this show apparently deserves a second chance for Ward.
I've already pointed out that Gamora from GotG went through the same things as Ward (well, the details weren't made clear to us but we know it was heavy-duty abuse since childhood) and became a good person, despite the fact that her abuser was the single most powerful and terrifying entity in the MCU, Thanos. I'm sure others will be able to provide additional examples.
Everyone else has worked for redemption, Ward HAS NOT! You going to suggest that Ward had it worse than Black Widow? Serioursly?!
Ward has not made a single attempt to change the killer that he is. He is still the "not a good man" he told Skye he was in Providence, how is that something you fai to grasp?
Black Widow is another that jumps to mind, actually brain washed, abused, multilated, and yet she found it within her to go straight, to try and balance her ledger.
You can't tell me Ward had it worse then those two examples? Oh wait standby for KG's rebuttal...
The abuse doesn't excuse his actions as I have stated multiple times. It explains them. The situation has never been black and white and I'm sick of the show treating it that way when there's a middle.
The show is the one who vilified two abuse victims and I will not let that go. The abuse has never nor will it ever excuse his actions but it explains them and the situation isn't black and white even though the show is trying to present it that way.
Redemption isn't supposed to be easy and I was just looking forward to it starting this season. That's all.
Yes, it explains them. And every person who does bad things has an explanation, be it money, love, revenge, ideology, loyalty, etc. Ward is no different. It's just that you and the rest of the SWW fandom can't accept that he, too, is a bad person.
Can you explain to me what is the logical connection between Ward being an abuse victim and Ward refusing, 15 years later, to begin to turn his life around by giving Coulson intel? No? Then you're just throwing out "abuse" (and "victim blaming", and "vilifying abuse victims") as a magic word that's supposed to win the argument.
Coulson asking Ward for Hydra-related intel was one of many opportunities Ward has had to change. He never took any of them, because he doesn't WANT to change. You've elected to ignore that all season and now, when the truth has been made unmistakably clear in the finale, you're crying foul. All we're saying in response is, don't blame the show when *you're* the one who weren't paying attention to everything that didn't suit your view of the characters and story.
I wouldn't have liked it but I would have accepted the villain origin story if it had actually made sense. But no, it happened because of a relationship (that no one wanted) that took place over a month and a half in 2B and happened off-screen.
They dangled redemption in front of the Ward fans with that phone call in 2.19 and then ripped the rug out from underneath us. He's not a good man but he can be.
Gamora being tortured and mutliated by Thanos isn't the same as abuse, Widow getting brainwashed and having to deal with killing innocents.
Ward IS NOT a special snowflake no matter how you try and twist reality to suit your view. He chos his path with Garret dead, nobody but Ward is responsible for his actions now.
It's been pointed out a million times around here that Ward did plenty of things that indicated he wasn't reforming before he'd even met Kara. Her death was the breaking point that made him go off the deep end completely and restart Hydra, but things were building up to that point long before. Don't pretend that Ward's turn to villainy is all about Kara because we all know it's not even close to that. She was just the last straw.
Honestly, I'd love to do some kind of Parallel Universe experiment where the actors for Ward and Fisk are reversed. Can you imagine the results? We'd be flooded with #StandWithFisk everywhere and hearing about how Matt/Daredevil is just a douche for hurting the poor abuse victim. Meanwhile, we would have maybe 3 people saying Ward should be redeemed, the rest would just say he's a great baddie.
He was abused all his life - John Garrett kidnapped a teenage boy - and then proceeded to physically and emotionally abuse Ward until the day he died. Ward hasn't even realized that yet, which is sad. And it's pretty important. He's not mentally stable at all and that's a huge problem.
He actually didn't try to kill FitzSimmons - he tried to save them from Garrett, his abuser, who would have killed them himself or had some other Hydra agent do it if they stayed on that plane. And then Ward would have been punished for it too. It failed spectacularly but he did end up saving their lives.
And before you say it, Ward couldn't have let them go because oops, look there's at least one Hydra agent behind FitzSimmons so they had clearly been spotted http://skyewward.tumblr.com/post/118323792681
And so you show just exactly where you stand on the argument. It's got nothing to do with "victim blaming", or "abuse" or any other red herring you want to throw out. If you can accept and embrace Fisk as a villian, then you have to give Ward the same acceptance. There is no difference.
The show is absolutely not presenting things as black and white. They took the time to show us Ward's backstory so we would understand his actions, but it also didn't use his past to excuse those actions. His tragic childhood doesn't need to be validated by a redemption arc to still be tragic.
Please stop accusing the writers of vilifying abuse victims. That'a a very specific and horrible thing. They showed that one of the terrible things about abuse is that it breeds more abuse. This is an entirely different matter. And more importantly, it's TRUE.
I feel like this whole argument is like running into a brick wall, so this will be my last comment to you in this thread.
For the 100000000th time, there are different levels of mental illnesses. A top-tier SHIELD agent who is secretly undercover for another organization, for a decade, is clearly a functional, rational person who knows what he's doing. He may have mental issues but certainly not to the point that he can't make elaborate plots and schemes. To suggest that someone like that is too mentally ill to take simple steps towards redeeming himself such as cooperating with the organization he betrayed is ridiculous. You're pulling the abuse card for every single thing, even when it's completely irrelevant. And in this case, it is. That's why I said you're the one trivializing abuse, not the show, and I stand by that.
There is a difference because Fisk was a villain from the start and is clearly going to stay that way. They're different situations despite similar backstories.
He definitely went over the edge late season one (thanks, Garrett) and continued to get worse.
All I wanted and hoped for was for Ward (and Kara) to break the cycle and become a better person. I also didn't want John Garrett to win because screw that.
Can we even get an explanation of "vilifying abuse victims"? What does it mean, exactly, beyond sounding like a cool SJW term?
Meanings I can think of:
- Presenting it like all abuse victims eventually become bad people and hurt others. The show has not done this. Ward and Kara are two characters, they're not the sum of all abuse victims ever. - Blaming abuse victims for the abuse they've suffered. Again, not what the show did, ever. None of them were ever blamed for what was done to them, only for what they did to others. - Writing villainous characters as past abuse victims - what KG seems to be going for. As you say, it's simply true to reality. Sadly, plenty of abuse victims become horrible people like their abusers. Would it be better if the show took place in a happy, fluffy, unrealistic world where the bad guys were just complete monsters who decided to be that way for no reason, and everyone who ever suffered the way Ward and Kara did got better and received their happy ending?
Sometimes the bad guy wins, though I don't think Garret would consider himself a winner based on how things played out. And forget I said tragic childhood. The tragedy extended beyond that, but my point still stands that it doesn't need a redemption arc to be valid.
I'd really like to have a lighthearted and cilvil discussion about Ward's characterization, but terms like "Villifying abuse victims" makes that impossible. It just gets everybody riled up.
NOTE: Name-calling, personal attacks, spamming, excessive self-promotion, condescending pomposity, general assiness, racism, sexism, any-other-ism, homophobia, acrophobia, and destructive (versus constructive) criticism will get you BANNED from the party.
The end. Dude, the stone didn't just explode or exude energy or control her - those I wouldn't have been super surprised by. The stone ATE HER. That wins.
ReplyDeleteThe ending with Simmons for me
ReplyDeletemost shocking and unexpected was Coulson's hand + the ending. Other parts were kinda predictable
ReplyDeleteSimmons getting dragged into the stone. Damn.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely the ending. Sat staring at the screen with my mouth open for a little while when it happened.
ReplyDeleteMack chopping of Coulson's hand & Kree Stone swallowing Simmons-Never saw it coming!
ReplyDeleteEverything!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteIt says you can vote for 3, but I'm only able to select 2 options.
ReplyDeletesame here.
ReplyDeleteMostly everything from that damn finale was shocking for me haha, it was insane but I had so much fun with it! From Simmons getting sucked into that Kree weapon, Mack chopping off Coulson's arm to save him from being crumbled, Cal going through the TAHITI program and living a new life as a veterinarian, mostly all of the Inhumans that we know so far being wiped out, etc. What a rollercoaster of emotions but I loved every minute of it.
ReplyDeleteMan this poll just reminds me of how awesome that finale was. Best of the TV season for me.
ReplyDeleteJiaying trying to kill Skye! That bitch lol.
ReplyDeleteJemma getting swallowed by the rock but mostly all the out of nowhere plot twists that made no sense.
ReplyDeleteWhen Ward killed Kara that was intense. Everything about this Season finale was great im still reliving it.
ReplyDeleteThe whole season finale was shocking and intense. I absolutely loved it. So glad I gave this show a chance, I'm proud to say I was there from the pilot episode.
ReplyDeleteIf I really have to choose, I must to pick three:
- The Kree Stone swallows Jemma- My mouth was wide open in shock for ages even after the episode finished. I never thought that would happen.
- Cal kills Jiaying to save Skye-Really thought that Jiayang would survive and continue to be a villain in Season 3.
- Bobbi takes a bullet for Hunter- I thought that Bobbi would be able to remove at least one of her hands out of her binds to reach her mouth piece (not sure if it was rope or tape) so she could stop Hunter from entering the room.
Season 2 was amazing. Can't wait to see what Season 3 will bring. *sad sigh* Such a long wait now...
SIMMONS!!!!! That was the one moment that had me screaming OMG!!!!!
ReplyDeleteMack chops off Coulson's hand to save him and
ReplyDeleteThe reveal that Cal's memories have been wiped
Again, only out of nowhere as you've been editing the show to fit your viewpoint. Otherwise yeah, not out of character.
ReplyDeleteOut of character for everyone who got screwed over for the ~plot twists~ they wanted. This is not the show nor the characters I fell in love with.
ReplyDeleteI didn't see Ward killing Kara coming. At least not before immediately beforehand.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I would consider AoS to be one of the few truly character driven shows on TV. One of the reasons I think it's so shocking is that they actually stay true to the characters and let the plot twists develop naturally.
ReplyDeleteNo doubt the characters have changed, but there has always been a clear motivation for that change. I would agree that some of the characters are less likable now, like Ward and Simmons, but they are also far more interesting.
No? I kinda thought it was obvious he would kill her so he can have interesting development in S3
ReplyDeleteCoulson's hand and the kree stone eating Simmons were the most shocking, but I really enjoyed the scenes involving Cal and Ward. This show knows how to write compelling villains.
ReplyDeleteThis, there are consequences for actions and growth of characters (whether we like it or not) as a result of their experiences. In other words a natural development. And honestly while he is evil I "like" Ward more than cardboard cutout agent Ward as the character has far more depth and value than Agent Ward.
ReplyDeleteNobody got screwed over, before the finale you were anti Jiaying, but suddenly it's a major issue that she died? honestly KG I have zero doubt if Ward returned to the playground, you'd be sing praises of the episodes no matter what the rest of the body count, or how butched the characters would be for that to happen.
ReplyDeleteShows and characters evolve and grow or they die, AoS has handled it far better than many shows, you just hate it because of your shipping getting sunk.
Definitely the ending with Simmons. Great episode overall but everything else, I basically expected or thought it was possible... the ending made me jump up and say WHAT THE FUCK?! and I had to rewind it just to make sure it actually happened.
ReplyDeleteThe Kree stone swallows Simmons thatw as like WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
ReplyDeleteHa, when I submitted the poll I *totally* knew which two options would win. I voted for them too.
ReplyDelete- The ending with Simmons was classic lure your audience into a false sense of security and then... BAM! Shit goes down. I'm pretty sure no one was expecting THAT to happen - something bad, maybe, but not Simmons getting freaking eaten by the thing. The fact that we have absolutely no idea what it means just makes it scarier.
- Coulson's hand was a great moment because it really felt like they were subverting our expectations. I don't know how many times I've heard the theory that Coulson is an Inhuman, or at least immune to the crystals, because he's undergone T.A.H.I.T.I. - and boy, does it ever get frustrating to explain to people over and over again what an Inhuman is, and that simply getting a tranfusion of Kree blood doesn't make you one. Still, when Coulson grabbed the crystal, I was totally expecting a reveal that he was an Inhuman like all of those folks predicted.... so when he started turning to stone, I was like "OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIIIIIIIIT" for 3 seconds - until Mack did the unthinkable to save him. Bravo, show - that was unexpected and brutal. Also, if the show doesn't chicken out a la Nikita and leaves Coulson handless next season, that's TWO main characters with disabilities on AoS, which is difficult to believe (in a good way).
Other good twists:
- Ward kills Kara - I expected her to die in the finale, but I didn't think it would go down like that, with May tricking her (awesome) and Ward ending up being the one to pull the trigger. Karma's a bitch, Grant.
- Jiaying kills Raina - again, at some point into their conversation it became clear that Raina was a goner, but they surprised me with Skye witnessing it... which made clear why Raina did what she did. Well-played.
- Cal having had his memories wiped - what a powerful conclusion to his story. I didn't expect that at all. Even during the goodbye scene with Skye, I imagined SHIELD was simply going to lock him up. So apart from being very bittersweet and touching, it was also quite surprising to me. And the clever writers once again get credit for the bait-and-switch: suggesting that Ward would get a T.A.H.I.T.I. memory wipe, only to do it with a different character.
- Bobbi takes a bullet for Hunter - I knew Hunter wouldn't die because the spin-off with those two was still on the table when this episode was being written and filmed, but again, that was pretty shocking and brutal on the show's part. I would've thought Bobbi and Hunter would somehow get out of it with both unscathed... well, unshot at least, since Bobbi was already pretty scathed, but you know what I mean.
All in all - even though I predicted most of the deaths in the finale correctly (which I'm shocked about by the way, LOL), I didn't see the way in which things would go down coming. Season 2 truly went out with a bang, just like Season 1.
"out of nowhere plot twists that made no sense" - translation: "plot twists I didn't like".
ReplyDeleteThis is something I've repeated over and over again as one of the main strengths of AoS. Apart from the cool mythology and the high-octane action and the awesome plot twists and all that, it's got living, breathing characters who actually feel like real people most of the time. Unlike certain other shows I could mention, AoS puts the characters first and doesn't let them behave completely out of character whenever it's needed to set up the latest plot point. It also keeps the relationships between characters realistic, which is why Coulson doesn't immediately bury the hatchet with May after he finds out she reported on him to Fury, for example. Granted, he gets over it fairly quickly, but only after he has the realization that HE's lying to someone to protect her in the same way May did for him.
ReplyDeleteShe was someone I was pretty sure would die, but I still didn't anticipate HOW it would happen. If I had to guess, I would've probably said that she would die in the crossfire with SHIELD while they were trying to rescue Bobbi (serves me right for expecting this show to go the simple, predictable route, when they've proven over and over again that they don't DO predictable).
ReplyDeleteThe way they did it is cleverer, because it really gets across the point of how twisted Ward is. If Kara died at SHIELD's hands, even though his relationship with her was brief and it would've been basically their own fault for kidnapping Bobbi in the first place, Ward going into revenge mode against SHIELD would be somewhat understandable. But when the guy plugged Kara full of holes himself, and his reaction is to blame SHIELD and go after them, you come to realize just how deep his inability to take responsibility for his actions goes. It's just not an option in Grant Ward's mind: he is merely the product of circumstance and if he does something bad, it's always someone else's fault for putting him in that position. Bobbi's analysis of him was spot-on in that regard.
It's a major issue Jiaying died so Cal - a comic supervillain - could get his redemption. It doesn't matter that I didn't like her. And oh, look at everyone telling me how wrong I was before the last few episodes about Jiaying being shady!
ReplyDeleteCoulson lost his hand for no reason we can figure out, May went off with her ex-husband right after this (who's supposedly in a relationship), Skye spent her whole life looking for her parents and they turned out to be horrible, Jemma got swallowed by an alien blob after turning into a mess in 2B, Fitz got spared somewhat, Bobbi got tortured for the plot only when she didn't have to be, and we all saw what happened with Ward.
Lincoln was only in a few episodes and barely did anything. Other shows can balance this many regulars but AoS has proven it can't.
And again, vilifying two abuse victims (Kara and Ward) is a pretty big problem that I still have.
That would be all of them in the finale for all the characters. And I'm not alone here.
ReplyDeleteCoulson losing his hand is because actions have consequences, the idea that the three agents could fight Gordon and win with no scarifices? THAT would have been bad writing, instead you have Coulson making the hard call knowing the risks and everyone including one of his strongest critics seeing his willingness to scrifice himself for Shield.
ReplyDeleteFor May and Andrew, at no point did we find out WHO was in that picture, for all we know it was May, that he never gave up on her or their relationship, certainly both being in continous contact with her mum, and the chats at the base and the willingness to take her call before the mission suggests that he wasn't closed to her.
Skye, has the answers she wanted, along with closure good or bad. And actually saw the good side of Cal (and Cal isn't the first time AoS has deviated from the comics, infact they've made that clear (hell Skye is herself different from 616 Daisy).
Bobbi got tortured a) because it was most likely a) set up for the spin off and b) because it continues the well shown path of Ward and Kara getting "closure". As said before in these discussions, some abuse victims do move past their abuse, others don't, Ward has shown ZERO attempt from the day he broke out of the US transport to move beyond the killer that he has always been. Accept that that is the character that the show is giving you, they've had 1.5 seasons of showing you it at this stage.
We've heard your "I'm not the only one who feels this way" non-argument a thousand times already, and it doesn't validate any of what you said. I don't care how many Stand With Ward people on your timeline and Tumblr have (shocker!) the same opinion as you - all it proves is that you all share the same bias.
ReplyDeleteNo one was out-of-character in the finale, au contraire: the showrunners didn't bend over backwards to service certain fan groups, as well they shouldn't.
Or the fallout when May finds out about the Theta Protocol, she reacts and the relationship between May and Coulson changes again. It's better than just handwaving every episode to artifically maintain a season 1 relationship 2-4 seasons in.
ReplyDeleteOr plot areas, that have been ignored for most of the season because it didn't fit a viewpoint, then suddenly "crap we can't avoid reality, this sucks!"
ReplyDeleteNot to mention FitzSimmons and the way it took them at least half a season to go back to what they used to be, after the traumatic event they went through in the end of S1 and then Simmons leaving.
ReplyDeleteI think the only real time the show let me down in this aspect was Hunter's reaction to Mack after the Olmost SHIELD mess. Hunter forgave Mack way too quickly. Not only did Mack betray his trust, he knocked him out, tied him up and essentially kidnapped him to the ship. That's not something you get over that quickly, let alone drinking with the guy like buddies afterwards. I can be a little more understanding towards what happened with Bobbi because Hunter wasn't going to forgive her that quickly, but then her life was in danger and he had to put whatever he was feeling on mute.
In the very next episode, Scars, they had Hunter's quick forgiveness of Mack explained as Hunter wanting to piss off Bobbi, so it's not like they were trying to sweep the consequences under the rug.
ReplyDeleteI liked Ward well enough when he was undercover, and in hindsight I think it says a lot about who he is by showing us that side of him. But you're right. Until we learned that he was with Hydra, the character was fairly limited. Now he has much more room to evolve. There are a million different directions he can go, which imo is more important than how likable he is.
ReplyDeleteSlightly off topic, but have you seen Daredevil yet? (mild spoilers below if you haven't) Because I think Ward and Fisk share a lot of interesting parallels. The only difference is that we're introduced to Ward as a good guy, while Fisk is established as a villain right from the start. I hope we see some more of Ward's childhood because.seeing Fisk as a kid rounded out his character perfectly.
Guess what? I'm not even a part of SWW despite loving Ward - neither are my friends - and we're still pissed.
ReplyDeleteAnd did you forget the multiple Ward haters I linked to that hated the finale for the same reason? When they think it's out of character, it's not just the Ward fans.
And no, they shouldn't use fanservice but they also shouldn't mock a fanbase because they crossed a line there.
How was any of that setting up the spin-off? I can't still figure that one out. What exactly were Bobbi and Lance going to do?
ReplyDeleteAnd the problem is with how the show treated their two canon abuse victims after acknowledging in interviews that both were abused. So many abuse survivors watch this show and were horrified to see what went down in the finale. There were better ways they could have done about this and the show could have handled it respectfully but they didn't.
Kara deserved better, Ward deserved better, they all deserved better than the crappy writing forced upon them.
I must have missed/forgotten that, thanks. I still think we should see some mistrust between the entire team, Hunter included, and Bobbi/Mack next season. While it's a very different situation from Ward, obviously, they still ultimately betrayed their friends, and that's never easy to remedy. (Plus, as we've discussed before - in the context of Ward, but it still applies - forgiveness is one thing, but re-establishing trust is another, and definitely more difficult.)
ReplyDelete"I'm not part of SWW"? Wow. I don't even know who you think you're kidding now. Whatever.
ReplyDeleteThere may be a few people who don't like Ward and still think he was badly written in the finale, sucks for them. The majority of the fandom, however, seems to think it's an excellent episode. (And while most people having an opinion doesn't make it true, the minority having it certainly doesn't, either...)
And the reason your fanbase was mocked is that its attitude is ridiculous, Ward could've killed babies in their beds in some episode and you'd still have said he needs to be redeemed and go back to SHIELD and Skyeward needs to happen. It was a wake-up call, and instead of listening, you're complaining about that along with everything else in the finale.
I was quite sure she'd take the bullet, but despite sort of predicting it, I still loved it! I was so happy that Lance and Bobbi got so much screen time.
ReplyDeleteOh, I agree wholeheartly. Thankfully, the first episodes of new seasons aren't nearly as frenetic as the ones leading up to a finale, so hopefully they'll be able to deal with the theme of 'trust' repectfully when the show picks up again in September. They'll certainly need to, because you just know they are going to pull a "Lincoln has secrets" storyline if the ultimate intent is to reveal him as Thomas! :)
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of that, I ended up writing a whole blog article about it, feel free to check out anytime: http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Demileto/Is_Lincoln_Campbell_really_an_alias_for_Thomas_Ward%3F
:)
We saw Cal blame Jiaying on screen for all his actions and that's how she got sacrificed for his redemption. But God forbid Ward do the same (even though I don't agree with it) because evil!!!!!!!! No shades of grey on this show ever which irritates me.
ReplyDeleteJiaying went on the murder spree (which I'm pretty sure that was confirmed?) with Cal after Skye was taken which I kept reminding people of and they said it didn't happen. She kept insisting no one know Skye was her daughter and oops, the door was open so everyone could find out. She was willing to let Cal go and innocent people die and had no problem with this. And this was all she murdered Gonzales.
And why exactly didn't Coulson call in Andrew to help Ward after THREE suicide attempts? That would have been the time but he apparently didn't psychological help was necessary. And neither Kara nor Ward seemed aware they needed actual help.
And yes, two abuse victims were vilified and that's all on the writers, not the characters. I know many of us were looking forward to a story where Kara and Ward started to heal from the abuse they suffered but instead they made them both appear crazy and it's sickening.
Not all abuse victims can be saved. It sucks, but it's the truth. For that to work, both of them MUST be open to be saved, that was not the case for either Ward and Kara: they both felt complete with each other even if their relationship was toxic, with each one fueling the other's inner darkness. One of them had to go for the other to have a chance, however small, of salvation, and the one chosen to pay the price was Kara.
ReplyDeleteKara shouldn't have had to pay the price for anything. Neither should Ward.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, not all abuse victims but can be saved but they shouldn't have been vilified either.
They crossed a line they never should have crossed by mocking a fanbase when they didn't have to. They are fans of their show, and that's how they get treated? It's disgusting.
ReplyDeleteIf anything, I'd say the biggest problem of the Ward/Kara subplot was that it took time from the far more interesting main storyline for the sake of a twisted love story. It was, however, an important stepping stone for Ward's character - Kara was the last shot he had of something good in his life, without her he only has his pain and the rage that comes with it left - so it had to happen.
ReplyDeleteI'd be more annoyed if there were perfect, fluffy resolutions for everything. Ward and Kara were abused, yes, but then they chose to be abusers themselves, becoming villains, so they had to pay a price for that.
ReplyDeleteThey technically didn't choose anything. The writers wrote them this way when they could have gone in a completely different direction.
ReplyDeleteAlso, look at Ming herself referring to May as Mama May on three separate occasions
ReplyDeletehttps://twitter.com/MingNa/status/598294042238029824 (bonus Chloe there)
https://twitter.com/MingNa/status/590685603559251968
And this https://twitter.com/MingNa/status/578054238770630658
Not to mention all the times that Clark, Chloe, and Ming have referred to Skye as Coulson and May's surrogate daughter in interviews.
Are the writers of Daredevil also guilty of vilifying abuse victims? How about Game of thrones, or Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or a hundred other shows that give their villains reasons for behaving the way they do?
ReplyDeleteSo you hoped for happily ever after to come easy for them? No, thanks, they have to work hard for it and they... didn't.
ReplyDeleteAh, once again, the art of taking things out of context. What Cal SAID about Jiaying's complicity doesn't matter. The reason why he could be redeemed is simple: he was crazy. None of the things he did were cold-blooded and rational. He lost his mind as a result of the tragedy that befell him. That's very clearly not the case with Ward, he may have some serious mental issues but you can't compare someone who is a good enough spy to infiltrate SHIELD for a decade with someone as obviously insane as Cal.
ReplyDeleteJiaying and Cal never just went on a random murder spree. They were trying to find their daughter. Is it okay? Hell no. Is it pure evil? Again, no. I don't even know what you're trying to say about Skye being Jiaying's daughter, are you claiming that Jiaying set up that revelation while only pretending to Skye that no one could know? That makes no sense, because keeping it a secret was HER IDEA in the first place, not Skye's - there was no need for putting up a charade of hiding it and then accidentally letting it slip. As for Jiaying being willing to let Cal go and endanger other people - she couldn't keep him at Afterlife, what choice did she have? Against, she was being cold and practical in an attempt to keep her people safe. I'm not saying she deserved a round of applause for it, but it was hardly an evil act. A lot of leaders in areas of political conflict in the world make the exact same calls all the time: protect your own people first. She WAS a grey character until the Gonzales thing, maybe even until the finale.
I don't know why Coulson didn't call Andrew to treat Ward, but it's clear he had a lot on his plate in the beginning of the season, between trips abroad to build a Hellicarrier, fighting Hydra, evading the government/army and whatnot, and all on minimal resources. If this was a regular situation, I imagine Ward, like any other prisoner, would've gotten mental treatment as necessary, but SHIELD was stripped down to its bare necessities early in S2 so it's pretty understandable that Ward's mental state wasn't Coulson's top priority.
I'm not going to continue talking about the issue of "vilifying abuse victims". You're clearly only interested in repeating the same words over and over and over again, and stubbornly shut out everyone's responses unless they're in agreement. No one says that abuse victims can't get help and get better, that's just not what happened in this particular case. If you want an MCU example to the contrary, rewatch Guardians of the Galaxy and see how Gamora, an abuse victim of her "father" Thanos (who is the Big Bad of the entire MCU and 1000000000 times scarier than John Garrett), goes against him to help the good guys. She chose right, while other victims like Nebula, Ward and Kara chose wrong. That's life.
Right, because when characters do what you want them to (like Ward seemingly helping Coulson in "The Dirty Half-Dozen"), it's their own choice and the most wonderful thing ever, but when they don't, suddenly it's just because the evil writers made them.
ReplyDeleteI've heard this already. The point is, you used it as a reason to hate Jiaying, Cal and the Inhumans because you insisted that SHIELD only should be Skye's family (which: congrats, you got your wish on that one).
ReplyDelete"Lincoln was only in a few episodes and barely did anything" That's true, and I'd even go further and state that he didn't even get the required character development in season 2 to justify his conception, let alone the actor's upgrade to regular status yet. The reason is clear for those who are open to see it: being secretly Thomas Ward, the character's big story is and has always been a season 3 one, but if they left his introduction for season 3 he'd be more of a supporting character for a Grant Ward story instead of being a character in his own right, who has just as much personal connections to everyone else in SHIELD as his Big Bad brother does.
ReplyDeleteI still don't understand what she means by "abuse victims were vilified". It can be read in two ways:
ReplyDelete1. "The abuse victims became villains, and that sucks, I wish they had been redeemed." If that's what KG means, then all my sympathy, it's always a blow when you get invested in a character and then the show takes them in a direction you never wanted. Alas, it seems much more likely that what she means is:
2. "The abuse victims were portrayed as villains, which should never happen, abuse victims are never guilty of anything they do afterwards, they deserve to get better and live happily ever after even if they became unbelievably evil and hurt tons of people as a result of their abuse." Which... is short-sighted. Because the sad truth is, we live in a world where a LOT of abuse victims turn into abusers themselves, as you pointed out, and giving them a pass on their actions isn't going to help anything. Especially since you can't even draw the line properly: if you get into it, a HUGE portion of the people who do horrible things have some awful trauma in their past, so who has an excuse and who doesn't? In the end of the day, AoS simply portrayed a reality with Kara and Ward, a painful reality but one that's true nontheless: some people don't get help and get better after enduring such horrors. Instead, they only get worse and make others their own victims. I don't understand how acknowledging this truth makes AoS socially irresponsible or offensive. To me, it's just another example of KG twisting everything around, which has gotten beyond tiresome. There are shows and movies that deal with abuse in problematic ways - AoS isn't one of them.
To rephrase: I had her on the top of "people who might die" list, but I actually expected a different twist. I expected that the reveal would be that she manipulated him far more than the other way around. And that has nothing to do with being a Ward apologist, but having a villain which can be played by any actor of the show would have been a really smart long-term move.
ReplyDeleteI also considered the possibility that Ward might kill her. I didn't expect though how it finally happened. It was so twisty and heart-breaking.
Bobbi is really good in pegging people is it? Other than REAL Shield, naturally.
ReplyDeleteInteresting you should say this, because I've pointed out before that Fisk is the perfect example of how a villain - not a frenemy, not a grey character, an all-out vicious baddie - doesn't have to be a one-dimensional, boring character. Some are disappointed in Ward being a villain simply because they feel it sucks all the depth out of his character, but I don't feel that way at all. A villain can still be incredibly complex and not a mustache-twirling caricature. If the show knows what it wants to do with Ward as the Big Bad next season, unlike the fairly messy storytelling of Season 2 where he was concerned, Brett should have some awesome material to sink his actorly teeth into.
ReplyDeleteI guess, it also showed when she profiled Bakshi after interrogating him in "The Things We Bury". He didn't tell her much, but she managed to get enough cues from the little he did say, as well as his vocal inflections, body language and whatnot, to get a general idea of who he was. (Well, beyond what she already knew from when she worked with him at Hydra, I guess.)
ReplyDeleteI didn't hate pre-Hydra Ward as much as some, but I agree that he was pretty meh. That being said, like a lot of things on early AoS, Ward's character was something where we had to wait for the pay-off - and boy, was it worth it. If they hadn't spent two-thirds of S1 presenting us with a fairly bland, boy scout-ish Agent Ward, it wouldn't have been the shock it was when we learned the truth about him.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, but in Fisk's case I think it helped that he had a supporting cast of his own in Wesley and Vanessa, whereas Ward has no one to have interesting interactions with as a villain, separated from the team. They'll likely have to create one for the sake of his Big Bad storyline, but since the likelihood is that none of those brought in for his story will reach regular status I think it'll be increasingly hard to sustain his stint as a villain in the long run.
ReplyDeleteLike I have nothing against Luke at all and I'm happy for him, but really, Lincoln doesn't matter to me unless the Thomas theory is true.
ReplyDeleteGood writing isn't always about giving the characters what they deserve. Kara's storyline was essentially a tragedy imo, but a well written one. Ward's is a bit more complicated, but I did feel sorry for him when he accidentally killed someone he cared about. Of course he was trying to kill May, so my sympathy only went so far.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that IS a good point, makes me wonder who Ward will play off of next season. Hopefully, he won't just be sitting behind a desk and plotting evilly. Nor disappear for 5 episodes at a time - I may not be too fond of the character, but Brett deserves better (as many have said, TV is the one gig where getting maximum pay for minimal work isn't ideal...).
ReplyDeleteSo Cal deserves a second chance after twenty-five years of murdering people but God forbid Ward who wasn't half as bad as him gets one? The show was built on second chances and everyone apparently deserves one but Ward (and Raina and Jiaying).
ReplyDeleteOh, I don't disagree. Maybe it's arrogant of me, but at this point I don't even consider him not being Thomas a possibility, for me it's more of a case of WHEN the reveal will happen than IF, that's how strongly I feel about the theory.
ReplyDeleteI know they have to work hard for it. That's what I've been telling people for over a year. Redemption isn't supposed to be easy and it's a long path and Ward needs to make a lot of apologies to the team but I don't seem how redemption is even possible now.
ReplyDeleteDamn, I hope you're right! And if he is Thomas and can pull Grant back from the brink? Fantastic!
ReplyDeletePlus, not all characters are that important and get tons of awesome stuff to do. Lincoln, at least so far, is what, a tertiary character? His presence was at least justified by the fact that SOMEONE from the Inhumans had to open his/her eyes to Jiaying's plan in the end and help SHIELD, which in turn makes at least one potential member for Skye's Secret Warriors next season. I agree, he's had minimal development so far (although I liked his dorky sense of humor in his first episode, "Afterlife", I'd like to see more of that!), but it hardly strikes me as something deserving of so much scorn. If he was a, say, Fitz, May or Hunter level of character in importance, then I'd feel they're really slacking off with him.
ReplyDeleteSo why are the AoS writer's guilty. Fisk was abused as a kid and he became a villain. That applies to nearly everyone on Game of Thrones and a good handful from the buffyverse. What's the difference?
ReplyDeleteCal's chance came after Skye got to know him better and see for herself that he's not this Big Bad Wolf she originally thought he was, so there's that. Ward's different, he had it and he blew it by betraying them, it'll be MUCH, MUCH harder for him to get a second chance, as it should be.
ReplyDeleteCoulson offered Ward the exact same thing he gave to Cal; The TAHITI program.
ReplyDelete25 years of murdering people, seriously? You have no idea what Cal's body count is. Aside from the supposed massacre Cal and Jiaying committed while looking for Skye, the details of which are murky at best, how many people has he even killed, exactly? I remember the two guys who came to him for treatment in "A Hen in the Wolf House" (clearly striking out in rage) and a few Hydra goons. There was one guard that was killed when Cal's supervillain team broke into that psychiatric institution to save David Angar, although Karla killed him, not Cal.
ReplyDeleteWard, meanwhile, has Nash, Hand, Hand's two guards, two guards at the Fridge, Eric Koenig, possibly police offers in "Nothing Personal" and the guards at his transport in the end of "A Fractured House", his parents, Christian, the guy who made Kara's mask, two soldiers at Talbot's base, and the attempted murder of Fitz, Simmons, May and Hunter/whoever entered Bobbi's room. Seems to me like Ward's got the advantage here, unless the show ever goes out and says, clearly, that Cal and Jiaying murdered scores of people (and I mean actual murder, not any form of self-defense).
Anyway, the more important point here, which I've already made but you ignored (as usual), is that Cal is insane, and every bad things he's done was lashing out of that insanity, while Ward is perfectly cold-blooded and rational. He knows what he's doing. He's capable of planning things in advance. None of his murders were while in a fit of rage, not knowing what he was doing: they were calculated moves in pursuit of his mission, whatever it happened to be at the moment. So yes, Ward is much worse than Cal.
And by the way, Raina, too, was redeemed in the finale. Yes, it was a redemption by death, but she did the right thing in the end by sacrificing herself so Skye would know the truth and stop Jiaying.
The difference here is that John Garrett kidnapped a fifteen year old abuse victim then proceeded to emotionally and physically abuse Grant until the day he died. He never got a chance to heal and become a better person. Hell, he's still unaware that Garrett even was abusive in the first place. Being abused all his life isn't an excuse for his actions but they definitely explain them and he needs a shitload of therapy.
ReplyDeleteKara was brainwashed and victim blamed for her actions and made to look crazy when she could have healed too.
The difference is that Wilson Fisk isn't played by a cute guy with a six-pack and isn't part of a popular "ship".
ReplyDeleteSorry, that's just brutal honesty.
Really, so you missed the whole "I can't do this anymore" from Bobbi, most likely she was going to leave shield with Hunter (as the comics did) or just leave the team. It perfectly set up them reuniting (getting past Hunter's anger with ehr and admitting he still cared, while showing her willing to die for him).
ReplyDeleteIf loads of abuse survivors do watch this then they know that some continue to abuse. It wasn't the finale. Ward had shown ZERO attempt to change, to grow, to be a better person at any point. All he showed was a comlete inability to take responsibility for his actions/choices/consquences.
It WAS NOT Crappy writing, it was just writing that you've been ignoring for over a season!
You haven't explained how Ward is any different from Fisk. If you've watched Daredevil, it's pretty clear that Fisk is an abuse victim as well, both physically and emotionally. In fact, the way his father forced him to beat up a bully because he wasn't strong enough, supposedly, is quite similar to Garrett needling Ward about his "weakness".
ReplyDeleteA good point about Fisk and Ward, of course the other major difference is that Fisk by the end has fully accepted that he has always been the bad guy, he may not have seen it before but in the back of the truck after being arrested he does.
ReplyDeleteWhere as with Ward, we still see him blaming anyone and everyone else for his actions. He knows he's not a good guy, but he's incapable of understanding that he's a bad guy IMO.
I think you are too attached to the idea Ward needs to be redeemed or the Ward version you read on fanfictions and until you see that the show is bad. This was never guaranteed for him. Could still happened but seriously, would have been so freaking boring if they suddenly made him good again. He got arrested and then he would spend his season 2 proclaiming his love to Skye and trying to get back to the team so they can be a family again. So boring. He would be back to being the silly Ward from first half of season 1. The MCU have characters with bad past who get redemptions arcs and others who don't. The people who created Ward don't want that for him (for now). You just need to accept and move on. You can keep watching or not but if you don't get what you want and continue to crap on the show its just silly.
ReplyDeleteGarrett is not the big abuser here, the family is. I daresay the impact of Garrett's abuse will end up being rather irrelevant compared to what happened in his family life when we finally find about it.
ReplyDeleteBoth the family and Garrett are the big abusers, tbh. However, it sounds like Mama Ward (I'm worried she and/or Garrett may also have been sexually abusive), Christian, and Garrett were the worst.
ReplyDeleteI didn't want that because redemption isn't supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be a long path and Ward has a long to make up for and I was looking for the redemption arc starting in season two not for everything to go back to normal.
ReplyDeleteBecause Fisk is a villain and doesn't want to change and I'm fine with that. The situations are completely different.
ReplyDeleteExcept that Ward was completely broken as a person when John Garrett took him as an apprentice, he was beyond caring about anything anymore, so he didn't mind Garrett's abuse. The family, thus, is the bigger abuser here.
ReplyDeleteNo, I didn't miss Bobbi saying that. It still doesn't set up the spin-off.
ReplyDeleteHe wasn't also introduced as the boring company guy who was playing everybody. Ward was and that was the version his fans liked and thinks its real. If the guy is introduced as "good" with bad past then he deserves to be redeemed but if the villain is introduced as bad from the get go people don't care for them.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm still against TAHITI after what it did to him. Why would he want someone else to go through what he and the others did?
ReplyDeleteIt honestly seems like he hasn't even realized yet that Garrett was abusive and that's just sad.
ReplyDeleteAnd honestly, I haven't been able to shake the feeling for a long time that Mama Ward and/or Garrett were sexually abusive. I'm worried about it especially since Grant is a thirty year old man who literally can't say the word "sex".
Victim blaming means she was blamed specifically for the terrible things that happened to her. Kara was blamed for her actions that were a byproduct of her brainwashing. There is a difference.
ReplyDeleteAnd based on what was shown, I would say Garret manipulated Ward, abused is a bit of a stretch. He very well could have, but there's no concrete evidence of it. Because we don't really know the extent of the abuse done to either character, it's impossible to say who had it worse, Ward or Fisk. But both shows writers clearly established abuse took place and just because the degree of it may differ, the outcomes are very similar, so I have a hard time seeing how one handled the subject well and the other didn't
And what has Ward done so far to indicate that he wants to change, pray tell? Every single "good" action of his has had some sort of personal agenda behind it. Even when he supposedly helped Coulson out in 2x18-9, we found out it was all a ruse to get Kara into SHIELD so she could kidnap Bobbi and have her little "closure" session with her.
ReplyDeleteOr maybe I should ask a different question. If, hypothetically (we all know it's not actually going to happen), Fisk decided that he wanted to reform in Season 2 of Daredevil, would that be fine with you? If not, why? How is he any worse than Ward?
I think ultimately it didn't start in season 2 is because a) it wasn't all that long ago that Ward being revealed as a villain breathed life into the character, so they couldn't very well backtrack from that so quickly and b) the season was choke full of things to cover already and Ward's story deserves much, much breathing room to be handled with respect. Season 3, however, I think we'll finally get the story of the family, if only because it's the last of the four big character mysteries that's still unanswered after two seasons, the first three being Coulson's ressurection, Skye's origins and May's Bahrain incident.
ReplyDeleteWhat, abused Ward sexually? I'd be incredibly shocked if this became a thing in a Disney/ABC show. Nope.
ReplyDeleteImagine how boring the show would have been if Ward started a silly redemption arc on 2x01 and back to the team being the same old boring Ward from the season 1. Ward might not have the best use and development on season 2 but his fans vision of how the show should have handled him is boring and bad. The nice little family thing from early season 1 was nice to some extent but got boring really fast.
ReplyDeleteWell, he was raped by Lorelei and they dealt with it.
ReplyDeleteIt's one of the things that are really annoying about shipping: some shippers become so obsessed with their favorite pairing, they end up considering it the be-all, end-all of the show. As such, the entire show should be twisted around to accommodate it. Case in a point, a bunch of fans became smitted with Skyeward in the early portion of Season 1 and were going to stick with that pairing no matter. So when Ward was revealed as Hydra, did they give a shit? No. Not enough to realize that their ship has become invalid, at least. Instead, they began to demand a redemption and for Skye to become a ridiculous Bella Swan/Elena Gilbert clone who's willing to put aside all of the blood on Ward's hands because damn, he's just so irresistible.
ReplyDeleteThere are sensible shippers, who get it when the show goes a direction that sinks their ship and move on, possibly to fanfiction. They don't pretend that their ship can plausibly still happen in show canon, or should. But then you have the rabid shippers I mentioned above - to them, the ship MUST happen no matter what. Hence all of this howling and moaning about how the show is crap because it's doing things that are hurting Skyeward's prospects.
"If a male character is shown not jumping at the chance to have sex with someone (female), he will be gay. Or Mistaken for Gay - the latter scenario can be Truth in Television. This is also one if not the defining factor of Double Standard: Rape, Female on Male; the idea that men cannot be raped by women because no man could ever be unwilling to have sex."
ReplyDeletehttp://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AManIsAlwaysEager
I love TV Tropes, such an amusing read! :)
I agree. Simmons from season one was very cute and all but people honestly think she should continue to be that girl forever especially with their world constantly changing and people dying around her? that would be silly. Thre was nothing worng with her development. I just think she could have used more screentime but it wasn't out of the blue and Ward pre Hydra reveal was the most boring character by far.
ReplyDeleteThere is concrete evidence of Garrett's abuse of Ward. It's not a stretch.
ReplyDeleteEmotional abuse: http://klutzygirl.tumblr.com/post/109520039937/friendly-reminder-that-grant-was-16-years-old
http://klutzygirl.tumblr.com/post/99757372327/you-said-hydra-had-a-way-of-convincing-people-you
http://klutzygirl.tumblr.com/post/93595026343/nomawalker-its-no-coincidence-that-wards
And the physical: http://klutzygirl.tumblr.com/post/96480495028/eveningspirit-its-unfortunate-but-true-that
That wasn't the first time and it was an excuse to "sell the cover". Garrett went above and beyond here.
It is 100% abuse.
Oops, I meant never dealt with it. But the fact that they've never mentioned it again nor shown Ward's reaction bothers me.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, I love TVTropes in general!
How is he not as bad? Handed over gifted to Hydra, most likely killed some of them, betrayed Shield at all times (who knows how many innocent died as a result), killed agents in the Fall, helped release the some of Shields most dangerous prisoners, gave Hydra extremely dangerous tech, killed US service personnel, his family... Serioursly how do you twist it so his hands are clean.
ReplyDeleteWard doesn't get a second chance because at no point has he made a single attempt to be anything other than what he is. Even when he was in Shield holding he only gave up information to buy time with Skye rather than thinking, lets help the good guys...
Yes it does, Bobbi had shown issues with how the whole Shield/Real Shield played out, she had issues with how Hunter was taking it, she then scarficed herself for Hunter and is badly injured, along with the evaluation that Andrew did. To me that was clearly the set up out for the two if things had gone ahead.
ReplyDeleteNeither character sees himself as a villain (at least initially) and neither character wants to change, but both do terrible things.
ReplyDeleteOh come off it, this is getting sad at this stage.
ReplyDeleteThey definetly need to plan the characters arc better. All of them, especially now with more regulars. If they do that the season will be fine. I expect they will give more for Ward on S3. They saved his character during S2 so better have a good pay off now and they will definetly need to introduce strong secundary characters for him because right now is everyone team SHIELD against Ward.
ReplyDeleteWard knows that he's not a good guy, if any part of him wanted to be better and have a chance to do something better in his life he should have taken it.
ReplyDeleteWhere in anything since the Fall of Shield has Ward demonstrated for one moment that he wants to change? Nothing, not even finally giving intel to Shield was done because he wanted to help, it was all for him (getting time with Skye).
ReplyDeleteThe situations are the exact same, but as Alex pointed out, you aren't basing your position on what the character is.
I have issues with TAHITI as well, but my point was to show that Cal wasn't forgiven for all of his crimes. He paid a serious price.
ReplyDeleteEvery single "good thing" Ward has done has had an agenda behind it, it's amazing that people can keep claiming that he's done good so he was on the path to redemption, and suddenly the show did a 180 and made him fully evil in the finale.
ReplyDeleteAs you point out, the information he gave Skye could've just as easily been given to Coulson weeks before. Why did he wait until Coulson sent Skye to talk to him? Easy: 1. He's obsessed (ah, "in love") with Skye, so any excuse to see her would've worked in his book. 2. He knew Skye would be by far the easiest person to manipulate, because of both the fact that she used to have feelings for him AND the information he had on her family. If Ward had really wanted to change, help SHIELD and make amends, he would've told Coulson everything the latter wanted to know as soon as he got the opportunity.
Taking Skye to her father - I'm still stunned that shippers refer to this as a good thing Ward did or a profession of his love for Skye, seriously? Yeah, he kidnapped her and FORCED her to meet her father, which she didn't want considering she believed Cal to be a complete monster at that point. How romantic!
Helping SHIELD in 2x18-9 - one, he had no choice (Coulson threatened him), and two, we soon found out it had been a ruse to plant Kara inside SHIELD so she could kidnap Bobbi.
Seriously, if people could give me one example, ONE, of something Ward has done since the Hydra reveal that would indicate he was trying to change and be a better person - something truly selfless - I'd love to hear it.
Totally. Good guy killing those big bad guys? No problem! but good guys killing the bad guys who are very good looking but once played like a good guy? its villified abuse victim. He didn't have a chance! oh, those people see skyeward from seaon one as one true love even though they barely had a developed relationship. Lincoln the new guy? he doesn't matter. Its not true love. It so damn silly. People take shipping way too seriously. I wonder if those people would run away from a relationship like skyeward on real life or not.
ReplyDeleteEverything that happened to Coulson and the other T.A.H.I.T.I. patients was because of GH-325 itself, not because of the memory wipe. They only even had their memories wiped as a response to the craziness that the alien drug caused (notice how Coulson only starts to go crazy after he gets his memories back in the end of "Nothing Personal"). Cal was never given the drug, only the memory wipe (and the same was supposed to be done with Ward), so there was no reason to believe it would harm them in any way.
ReplyDeleteExactly, you have Coulson saying "I sat in this chair for weeks" and Ward said nothing to him, at a time when any bit of information could have made the difference, ie just maybe if Shield had the Hydra comm codes they might have been able to stop the raid of Kara's safehouse... Instead as you pointed out he kept quite knowing that eventually Coulson would send Skye. Yeah nothing Good in that.
ReplyDeleteAs for Skye's trip to Cal, not only the points you raise (including dropping in the middle of a full Hydra base (how short of Shield coming was she meant to get out of there alive?) there's also the point that he knew Hydra was going to attack the plane once he exposed it, thus endangering the rest of the team. Again struggling to find the good/redemption in that action.
2.18/19 like you said, all a compeltely different agenda with nothing to do with redemption.
As for the question raised further down as to why Coulson didn't get him a shrink, a)resources, b) trust, c) why should he? Seriously, what did Coulson owe Ward at that point, Ward wasn't an intel source, he wasn't helping the team with anything. Given the terrible state Shield as Coulson knew it was in, why should he expend very short resources on a man that everyone in Shield loathes? It's a hard question but it has to be asked, what entilted Ward to said resources?
He said at least two times that he wasn't a good man and there wasn't good left in him and his action tells us that. I don't remember a moment where Ward actually said he wanted to change or show he might change. He just said he missed his team so i don't know where exactly his fans see him wanting to change so he deserves a redemption arc and Fisk doesn't so fuck him he is a villain.
ReplyDeleteI really hope so. But the sad truth is, I feel like so many good-looking male characters (some examples other than Ward: Hook on Once Upon a Time, Damon on The Vampire Diaries, Klaus on TVD/The Originals, Spike on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Chuck on Gossip Girl) getting a pass on all the awful things they do in the name of being "hot bad boys" represents our culture. So it wouldn't surprise me if some of the folks who are happy to brush all of those actions off are susceptible to getting into abusive or at least dysfunctional and healthy relationships in real life. They may not forgive actual murder, but God knows a *lot* of people who have abusive spouses say the kind of "he's good deep down, he doesn't mean it" shit that is used in Ward's defense.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I'm not saying this never happens with female characters. If you look at Regina on Once Upon a Time, she's certainly done a hell of a lot of horrible stuff and everyone still wants her to get a happy ending. However, the "hot bad boy" seems to be a major trope and you see a lot more of them in TV/films (whereas when a woman does anything nearly as bad, the character tends to be hated by the viewers). And in a pretty repulsive way that sets feminism back about a century, a lot of teenage girls and young women seem to really buy this crap. I'm not trying to stereotype because I knew plenty of women HATE it, but sadly, there appear to be enough who feel otherwise because we just keep getting those characters.
Maybe I didn't word that right and if so I apologize. I merely meant that it's unclear who suffered worse abuse, Ward or Fisk.
ReplyDeleteExactly, you summed it up Ward has given no suggestion that he intends to change, no really example of him understanding that he's wrong (even his "team talk" was mainly blame everyone else).
ReplyDeleteThere is ZERO difference between Fisk and him or any other number of characters across a wide range of shows.
I totally agree on that last point. In an ideal world, even prisoners who have committed the most heinous crimes would get mental help when it was needed. However, Coulson was certainly NOT living in such a world in early S2, as we've both said he was working with minimal resources and God knows the last thing he had time for was calling Andrew to treat a prisoner. Hell, even Fitz, a member of Coulson's team who clearly needed some sort of help to deal with his newfound disability (and his emotional state following his best friend leaving), wasn't being treated by anyone. Why would Ward, someone who was of no use to Coulson at that point?
ReplyDeleteI want to know too. I'm thinking hard but i can't come up with one. Ward had the chance to start over when he was arrested. Garret was dead, the guy who had over power over him. He could have actually helped and rebuild trust during that time. Nobody helped him because he never showed any signs of change.
ReplyDeleteIt's a pretty important distinction, really: Ward isn't sorry for what he did, he's sorry for the consequences of it. He wishes he could still be a part of the team and everything like he told them in "The Dirty Half-Dozen". But ultimately, he just sees it as "shit happens", not as something he's actually responsible for. Ward has yet to utter one sincere apology, there's always an asterisk: "Yeah, what happened sucks but it's not my fault anyway..."
ReplyDeleteThere's also the point that Andrew to me seems to specialise in the more "unique" mental health issues (ie Gifted, Life after Death, computer programs for mental issues) rather than a day to day shrink.
ReplyDeleteBut yes again, Coulson is throwing lab staff into undercover ops against Hydra because he didn't have anyone else, he has Fitz still trying to work because he doesn't have anyone else to run the Labs.
Coulson was under no obligation to bend over for Ward when Ward wasn't even acting as a source of intel.
Also, your original point wasn't even about the villains wanting to change, it was about the "vilifying abuse victims" dead horse that KG won't stop beating. If Ward is an abuse victim who's been vilified by his portrayal, so is Fisk. There's no room for double standards here. However, as I've said, since Fisk isn't young and hot (in a conventional way - anyone who's attracted to Vincent D'Onofrio, good for them!) and isn't part of some stupid ship, it's totally okay that he's an abuse victim who became a villain. Whereas with Ward, it's offensive to abuse survivors everywhere.
ReplyDeleteSigh.
Why? Give us 1 single example of Ward actually being a "Good Guy" post the Fall? Show us 1 point that he has no ulterior motive, no game plan, where he is willing to scarifice for one of the team without wanting something from them?
ReplyDeleteIn 1.22 Coulson challenged Ward to define himself without Garrett, Season 2 showed who that person is.
I also think people are naturally more forgiving towards family and see the good in them more than others would. So Skye was obviously inclined to forgive Cal and want him to get some sort of happy ending despite the many horrible things he'd done. And in turn, if Coulson didn't care so much for the well-being of Cal's daughter, would've played with kid gloves for as long as he did when it came to Cal.
ReplyDeleteOn that May/Andrew point, another thing that's unclear to me: was it ever said outright that Andrew was joining May on her vacation? I can't remember a line about that for the life of me. I think some are just assuming it because of Andrew's voice-over over May packing her bathing suit and leaving. For all we know, she's going alone.
ReplyDeleteAndrew and May supposedly drank a lot of Coulson's scotch the night before or something like that, so I assume she's going on vacation with him.
ReplyDeleteI think it's also possible that in addition to the physical trauma of the torture and being shot, facing the reality of what she did to Kara was emotionally traumatizing to Bobbi. She's used to making hard calls as a spy but this is the first time she saw the results with her own eyes, the hate and anger towards her that Kara had, how damaged Kara was. Now, obviously that doesn't make what Kara did to Bobbi right, but it forces Bobbi to face the reality of the repercussions her "hard calls" have. So in addition to the SHIELD/Olmost SHIELD situation, and the fact that she had to betray Hunter who she loves, I think Bobbi was torn down and broken in the end and just wanted to quit the spy life. I imagine the spin-off would've started that way, with her somewhere far away and quiet, just trying to live a normal life again, with or without Hunter, and then she gets approached for a mission or something and therefore sucked back in. (Yeah, it's a cliche but whatever, LOL.)
ReplyDeleteTrue, his comments to Jemma for example. In terms of Skye forgiving him, I think it was the combination of actually seeing him as "stable" where he wasn't a horrible person (and learning the facts that he got screwed by life), along with his act to save Skye from having to kill Jiaying).
ReplyDeleteGood point, it is an assumption, I think based off them breaking in to Coulson's office to get drunk, which does suggest at least something might have changed between them.
ReplyDeleteOh yeah, there's that. Well, personally I'd be entirely up for a Melindrew reunion (I feel like their personalities balance each other out nicely and Blair Underwood is just so charming), although it's hard to imagine a happy long-term couple on this show. The reason KG pointed this out as a bad thing, though, is that Andrew is supposedly engaged. So I'm just saying that even IF Andrew is engaged, we still don't know for sure that he joined May on her vacation, so I'm not ready to announce May as a homewrecker just yet.
ReplyDeleteI SO wish there would be a hidden scene of them breaking into Coulson's office like mischievious little kids on the Blu-Ray, or something. That would SLAY.
ReplyDeleteThat would be funny as hell, kind of like the cut scene in the Hub where May is doing he Tai Chi and Jemma comes in after shooting Sitwell: "I shot somebody!", "Where's the body?" I wish they had left that it.
ReplyDeleteLong shot, not sure if it fits perfectly, but maybe, just maybe, he doesn't seem like he wants to change because deep down he believes he deserves to die for what he did to Thomas so he keeps upping his ante in the hopes that someone finally pulls the trigger?
ReplyDeleteEvery time I try to understand why Ward is the monster he is I keep going back to his relationship with his little brother and my current headcanon is that he loved Thomas, it tore him apart to be forced to abuse him so much and he believes now to have lost his little brother forever with Thomas supposedly having commited suicide (a possible interpretation of Gordon's 'you know how far she'll go to protect her people' to Lincoln if he is indeed Thomas), thus he feels himself to be 'hollow'. It'd be fitting, then, if Grant was suicidal to a point but can't bring himself to do it and wants others to do it for him.
Quick question, but I can't recall it ever being stated that he was engaged...
ReplyDeleteHe said he left for a reason which was related to the photo on his desk but I don't recall anymore than that. And I still think it could be a nod to the relationship (ie he left because of what it cost May.
If he was engaged, the whole having dinner/phoning the ex's mother takes on a whole stranger tone to me.
As screwed up as it was, he did try to help Kara find closure (God, I hate that word) for her brainwashing and torture at the hands of Hydra. And again, not the best move and it backfired and he shouldn't have done it but he did help Skye find one of the parents she had spent her whole life searching for her.
ReplyDeleteVery true, Simmons has been through significant;y stressful situations (the pod, undercover, dealing with Fitz, Trips death) along with the fact, being Sci-Tech she probably does have a good idea of how bad it can get when Gifted go bad. Her both struggling with this and going darker for all the losses makes sense.
ReplyDeleteThat's it? Those are what you consider "Good" actions...
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't know how to respond to that, none of those things either in what they cost or what the fallout for them were good., and if you think they were I'd have to seriously question your judgement.
I can't remember either. It was only when KG cited Andrew joining May on vacation (?) despite being engaged (?) as Reason #69305780 Why The Finale Sucked that this even came to my attention.
ReplyDeleteHis behavior with May is definitely strange and inappropriately flirty if he's with someone else.
Just wondering if I had missed a major point.
ReplyDeleteAlso in answer to my question of 1 good thing KG has actually brought out the taking Skye to Cal as a good thing Ward did...
I don't know how to respond to that!
Well, he was in jail and then missed like eight episodes and we were just supposed to accept that he had all this character development or whatever off screen.
ReplyDeleteHe hasn't had any character development, he has shown no difference from the man that killed Hand, tried to kill FitzSimmons to the man that tried to kill May. That's the point he's not changing, he's simple embracing what he is.
ReplyDeleteI'd even argue that she's still one of the more levelheaded and likable characters on the show. She got darker, true, but at the end of the day she's still Simmons.
ReplyDeleteEh, in hindsight it was, it was the first contact between father and daughter, they wouldn't have been able to develop a loving relationship later if Ward hadn't got them to meet.
ReplyDeleteThat said, Ward did that out self-interest, he expected Skye to disregard every bad thing he did to be with him again as a result.
But the Bus might have been shot down killing everyone on board, Ward delievered her to a Hydra base (with no example of how to get her out of there safely), Whitehall could have killed her, and Trip died as a result.
ReplyDeleteThat's a boatload of negatives some of which Ward knew he was risking (the bus and the Hydra base dangers)...
Kara was the only person around who could help Ward before he bled to death from being shot 4 times and nurse him back into health, so he latched onto her - a vulnerable, confused woman - with a promise of helping her find herself. You might say "Why didn't he just dump her afterwards?" - well, for one, it's possible that he genuinely developed feelings for her (hence his grief in the finale after he kills her), but it also sure can't hurt to have a highy skilled agent who's completely loyal and devoted to you as a sidekick. All in all, hardly selfless.
ReplyDeleteI don't even know what to say about the Cal thing. Ward KIDNAPPED Skye at GUNPOINT to take her to her father AGAINST HER WILL. Which, her father was at Hydra's HQ, which meant a very high chance of Skye not getting out of there alive, you know. And he did all of that after leading Hydra to the Bus, so Skye's five friends and teammates on that plane were essentially fish in a barrel. That's a sign of unhealthy, dangerous obsession, not of trying to reform and be a better person. That you can seriously reduce something like that to "not the best move" and still claim to be objective and sensible on the topic of Ward's actions is quite telling.
It's already been pointed out that if Ward was trying to change or reform, he could've cooperated with Coulson fully while in prison. Instead, he made Coulson sit in front of him for 3 weeks without saying a word, until Coulson had to send Skye - someone who A) Ward is obsessed with, so he obviously fancied any interaction with her and B) Ward could try to manipulate, given her past feelings for him and his knowledge about the family she was searching for.
ReplyDeleteGood point, but that's Ward, isn't it? The world to the people I care the most, hell to the others. :)
ReplyDeleteBut Ward, like every character, should be judged on what the likely outcome was from his perspective when he acted, not on what the outcome actually ended up being.
ReplyDeleteFrom Ward's POV, since he knew Cal was essentially a monster, there was no reason to expect that he and Skye would develop a positive relationship. And more importantly, the points sparky made: Ward was taking Skye to a HYDRA BASE - how likely was she to get out of there in one piece? - while leaving her 5 friends to die on the Bus. Sure, Ward himself didn't give the order to shoot the Bus down, but how much time could that really have bought the SHIELD crew? They were still fish in a barrel once Hydra had located the Bus - thanks to Ward.
So really, I don't understand how this can be seen as a good deed on Ward's part. It's more like yet another bad deed in a long line of them, which ended up leading to something good (Skye and Cal's relationship) because the stars aligned that way.
Hell, now that you mention it - once Whitehall figured out who Skye is, he wanted to subject her to the same sadistic experimentation that he'd performed on Jiaying. Ward's actions could have led to THAT.
ReplyDeleteBut he's a poor misunderstood puppy, right? Jesus Christ.
Yeah, but the reality is that Skye could have lived out a full life as an Agent without ever touching on her Inhuman side (or at the very least done so in a safer environment). I really think that it's reaching far to suggest that it was a "good" action, at the very most it was a Grey call that exposed Skye to massive danger that Ward had no way of managing.
ReplyDeleteThe way I see it, Ward's stuck in a vicious cycle of justifying past misdeeds by committing worse ones. I think at his core is a person with a strong sense of right and wrong, but because of that, he can't stand to take responsibility for what he's done because it's so awful. That's not an excuse for his behavior, far from it. If anything I think he got worse over the course of season two. In late season one you could see genuine conflict and regret for his actions, but by season two he had started to rationalize it to the point that he could bear it, which became a slippery slope and really twisted him up. On some subconscious level, he wanted to help Kara because if she could get closure by torturing Bobbi, he could justify murdering his family. Again, twisted.
ReplyDeleteThat's just my opinion anyway.
Oh, I don't disagree, he certainly put his own self-interest there above the lives of everyone else of SHIELD and deserves to get flack for it.
ReplyDeleteHe wasn't psychotically healthy after a lifetime of abuse + three suicide attempts and never got help. I'm still pissed about that.
ReplyDeleteWard ordered that the plane not be shot down and yes, I really don't like that he kidnapped Skye but in his messed up mind (because he never got any therapy after a lifetime of abuse and three suicide attempts) he was trying to help. And she shot him for it so he paid for his actions.
ReplyDeleteOh, but Ward would have managed to break out the "Black widow" level of skill (which he never had but hey) and safe her... Except he couldn't do that with Cal and Skye trying to fight as well. Without Shield raiding the base Skye would have died a horrible death as a result of Ward.
ReplyDeleteYou might as well use that as an excuse for every single thing he's done, then. Which brings us back to "Ward isn't responsible for anything, ever, he's just a victim".
ReplyDeleteYou're actually ridiculing abuse, not making people take it seriously, by using it as a knee-jerk reaction to defend every single thing Ward has done. "Why didn't he just give Coulson intel?" "Abuse!" Are you for real? There's zero connection between that and the fact that Ward simply didn't take ANY opportunity he's had to turn a new leaf.
I don't think anyone's arguing that point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your main issue is that none of the other characters tried to help him. That might not make them saints, but is it so unbelievable that after everything he'd done to them, they didn't want to help?
ReplyDeleteWard didn't follow Whitehall's order for the plane to be shot down, but he knew full well that Hydra had located the Bus - with his help. How long was it going to take before Whitehall had figured out that Ward had disobeyed his order and proceeded to order the shoot-down of the Bus himself? He left May, Hunter, Trip ahd the Koenigs to die. The difference between ordering it himself and leaving it to Whitehall/whoever is like the difference between shooting someone and handing another person the loaded gun. He just didn't want to feel personally responsible, but he knew the likely outcome would be the same.
ReplyDeleteAnd as I've just written in another comment, if you think the abuse is a blanket excuse for everything then there's no point even having a discussion: Ward could commit a genocide and you still wouldn't care. The point is, the man who was rational and sane enough to infiltrate SHIELD in Hydra's service for a DECADE, who has the highest espionage marks since Romanoff, a top-tier field agent, clearly knew better than to kidnap someone to force upon her a reunion with her father, technically a monster. He just didn't give a crap about the morality of that action, or lack thereof, because he's not a good person.
Mack Chops off Coulson's Hand
ReplyDeleteCal kills Jiaying so Skye won't have to
Runner Ups:
Simmons gets eaten by the stone
Ward kills Kara
Cal goes to Tahiti.
And then just shrugged his shoulders when informed that Whitehall ordered it shot down. He didn't care about the lives that he potentially killed. As May said, everyone on the team, hell probably everyone in Shield has truamas, didn't make them Ward.
ReplyDeleteIf BlackWidow can find her way to the right side with actual brainwashing/programming, Ward has ZERO excuse (love how you've now latched on to the Suicide attempts as another "Poor Ward" gambit btw).
Oh c'mon, Ward just pretended not to be able to save Skye from Whitehall because it was the midseason finale and he knew everything had to be dramatic and shit. When the time comes, he'll show us he's even more badass than Black Widow (pffft) and save Skye in a glorious fashion before she inevitably falls for his charm.
ReplyDeleteMy original point was that Ward had never done anything to indicate that he's trying to change and be better, and I cited not giving Coulson intel (instead waiting until Coulson sent Skye to him) as an example of that. So KG's retort was, of course, that Ward is an abuse victim and can't be held responsible for anything, ever. I guess that in that case, he doesn't need to actually DO anything to prove that he's on the path to redemption (anything would be too much of a demand from poor Ward), we're just supposed to believe it for some abstract reason.
ReplyDeleteEveryone's traumas were different. That's the point. Not everyone went through the same thing despite experiencing these things and they all dealt with it in different ways. None of them were abused all their lives and everyone on this show apparently deserves a second chance for Ward.
ReplyDeleteI've already pointed out that Gamora from GotG went through the same things as Ward (well, the details weren't made clear to us but we know it was heavy-duty abuse since childhood) and became a good person, despite the fact that her abuser was the single most powerful and terrifying entity in the MCU, Thanos. I'm sure others will be able to provide additional examples.
ReplyDeleteEveryone else has worked for redemption, Ward HAS NOT! You going to suggest that Ward had it worse than Black Widow? Serioursly?!
ReplyDeleteWard has not made a single attempt to change the killer that he is. He is still the "not a good man" he told Skye he was in Providence, how is that something you fai to grasp?
Black Widow is another that jumps to mind, actually brain washed, abused, multilated, and yet she found it within her to go straight, to try and balance her ledger.
ReplyDeleteYou can't tell me Ward had it worse then those two examples? Oh wait standby for KG's rebuttal...
The abuse doesn't excuse his actions as I have stated multiple times. It explains them. The situation has never been black and white and I'm sick of the show treating it that way when there's a middle.
ReplyDeleteThe show is the one who vilified two abuse victims and I will not let that go. The abuse has never nor will it ever excuse his actions but it explains them and the situation isn't black and white even though the show is trying to present it that way.
ReplyDeleteRedemption isn't supposed to be easy and I was just looking forward to it starting this season. That's all.
Yes, it explains them. And every person who does bad things has an explanation, be it money, love, revenge, ideology, loyalty, etc. Ward is no different. It's just that you and the rest of the SWW fandom can't accept that he, too, is a bad person.
ReplyDeleteHow? How does it explain what he's done?
ReplyDeleteAs Alex has said he is functional (functioning pyscho IMO), he's no different from Fisk of Daredevil.
NONE of their traumas are comparable. That's the point.
ReplyDeleteCan you explain to me what is the logical connection between Ward being an abuse victim and Ward refusing, 15 years later, to begin to turn his life around by giving Coulson intel? No? Then you're just throwing out "abuse" (and "victim blaming", and "vilifying abuse victims") as a magic word that's supposed to win the argument.
ReplyDeleteCoulson asking Ward for Hydra-related intel was one of many opportunities Ward has had to change. He never took any of them, because he doesn't WANT to change. You've elected to ignore that all season and now, when the truth has been made unmistakably clear in the finale, you're crying foul. All we're saying in response is, don't blame the show when *you're* the one who weren't paying attention to everything that didn't suit your view of the characters and story.
I wouldn't have liked it but I would have accepted the villain origin story if it had actually made sense. But no, it happened because of a relationship (that no one wanted) that took place over a month and a half in 2B and happened off-screen.
ReplyDeleteThey dangled redemption in front of the Ward fans with that phone call in 2.19 and then ripped the rug out from underneath us. He's not a good man but he can be.
Gamora being tortured and mutliated by Thanos isn't the same as abuse, Widow getting brainwashed and having to deal with killing innocents.
ReplyDeleteWard IS NOT a special snowflake no matter how you try and twist reality to suit your view. He chos his path with Garret dead, nobody but Ward is responsible for his actions now.
Thn I wait for you to start proclaiming that Fisk is just misunderstood in the Daredevil threads!
ReplyDeleteIt's been pointed out a million times around here that Ward did plenty of things that indicated he wasn't reforming before he'd even met Kara. Her death was the breaking point that made him go off the deep end completely and restart Hydra, but things were building up to that point long before. Don't pretend that Ward's turn to villainy is all about Kara because we all know it's not even close to that. She was just the last straw.
ReplyDeleteFisk, that is all!
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I'd love to do some kind of Parallel Universe experiment where the actors for Ward and Fisk are reversed. Can you imagine the results? We'd be flooded with #StandWithFisk everywhere and hearing about how Matt/Daredevil is just a douche for hurting the poor abuse victim. Meanwhile, we would have maybe 3 people saying Ward should be redeemed, the rest would just say he's a great baddie.
ReplyDeleteNope. He's a great villain and I don't care that he killed his father but I like him as a villain.
ReplyDeleteHe was abused all his life - John Garrett kidnapped a teenage boy - and then proceeded to physically and emotionally abuse Ward until the day he died. Ward hasn't even realized that yet, which is sad. And it's pretty important. He's not mentally stable at all and that's a huge problem.
ReplyDeleteHe actually didn't try to kill FitzSimmons - he tried to save them from Garrett, his abuser, who would have killed them himself or had some other Hydra agent do it if they stayed on that plane. And then Ward would have been punished for it too. It failed spectacularly but he did end up saving their lives.
ReplyDeleteAnd before you say it, Ward couldn't have let them go because oops, look there's at least one Hydra agent behind FitzSimmons so they had clearly been spotted http://skyewward.tumblr.com/post/118323792681
And so you show just exactly where you stand on the argument. It's got nothing to do with "victim blaming", or "abuse" or any other red herring you want to throw out. If you can accept and embrace Fisk as a villian, then you have to give Ward the same acceptance. There is no difference.
ReplyDeleteThe show is absolutely not presenting things as black and white. They took the time to show us Ward's backstory so we would understand his actions, but it also didn't use his past to excuse those actions. His tragic childhood doesn't need to be validated by a redemption arc to still be tragic.
ReplyDeletePlease stop accusing the writers of vilifying abuse victims. That'a a very specific and horrible thing. They showed that one of the terrible things about abuse is that it breeds more abuse. This is an entirely different matter. And more importantly, it's TRUE.
Dropping people in the middle of the ocean is saving them... Again I don't know what to say to how far you are willing to twist logic for Ward...
ReplyDeleteI feel like this whole argument is like running into a brick wall, so this will be my last comment to you in this thread.
ReplyDeleteFor the 100000000th time, there are different levels of mental illnesses. A top-tier SHIELD agent who is secretly undercover for another organization, for a decade, is clearly a functional, rational person who knows what he's doing. He may have mental issues but certainly not to the point that he can't make elaborate plots and schemes. To suggest that someone like that is too mentally ill to take simple steps towards redeeming himself such as cooperating with the organization he betrayed is ridiculous. You're pulling the abuse card for every single thing, even when it's completely irrelevant. And in this case, it is. That's why I said you're the one trivializing abuse, not the show, and I stand by that.
The pod was supposed to float, per Fitz in the first season finale.
ReplyDeleteThere is a difference because Fisk was a villain from the start and is clearly going to stay that way. They're different situations despite similar backstories.
ReplyDeleteShield was gone, there was nobody going to collect them, Ward had ZERO idea if he saved them or condemed them to death by dehydration.
ReplyDeleteIf he thought he was saving them, why did he look so broken up about it?
ReplyDeleteAgain, not just childhood abuse. Lifelong abuse.
ReplyDeleteAnd I wanted Ward (and Kara) to break the cycle because otherwise John Garrett wins and screw that.
Ward was a villian for as long as we've known him, there is no difference.
ReplyDeleteHe definitely went over the edge late season one (thanks, Garrett) and continued to get worse.
ReplyDeleteAll I wanted and hoped for was for Ward (and Kara) to break the cycle and become a better person. I also didn't want John Garrett to win because screw that.
Can we even get an explanation of "vilifying abuse victims"? What does it mean, exactly, beyond sounding like a cool SJW term?
ReplyDeleteMeanings I can think of:
- Presenting it like all abuse victims eventually become bad people and hurt others. The show has not done this. Ward and Kara are two characters, they're not the sum of all abuse victims ever.
- Blaming abuse victims for the abuse they've suffered. Again, not what the show did, ever. None of them were ever blamed for what was done to them, only for what they did to others.
- Writing villainous characters as past abuse victims - what KG seems to be going for. As you say, it's simply true to reality. Sadly, plenty of abuse victims become horrible people like their abusers. Would it be better if the show took place in a happy, fluffy, unrealistic world where the bad guys were just complete monsters who decided to be that way for no reason, and everyone who ever suffered the way Ward and Kara did got better and received their happy ending?
I give up. I just give up. It's a waste of time.
ReplyDeleteSometimes the bad guy wins, though I don't think Garret would consider himself a winner based on how things played out. And forget I said tragic childhood. The tragedy extended beyond that, but my point still stands that it doesn't need a redemption arc to be valid.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree.
ReplyDeleteI'd really like to have a lighthearted and cilvil discussion about Ward's characterization, but terms like "Villifying abuse victims" makes that impossible. It just gets everybody riled up.