We're going to try something new for some select shows during the summer and try opening up the polls and comments as the episode starts airing so you can discuss the show as it unfolds.
This means that you're free to discuss the show as it airs in the comments and then you can vote on the Poll when it's over. This post is opened 15 Minutes before the episode airs on the East Coast. It goes without saying, unless you're watching it live and don't want to be spoiled, don't proceed any further :)
Hopefully you'll enjoy being able to comment on the show live as it airs.
So let us know what you think during the episode and what you think of being able to comment on the show whilst it airs in the comments below.
R.I.P. Shireen :( Her poor screams, so heartbreaking.
ReplyDeleteThis was the first time I ever saw her mother show any affection towards her.
season 5 shouldn't be called "Game of Thrones" It's "idiots, devils - and Jon Targaryen, the last hope"
ReplyDeleteYay! Drogon to the rescue!! Yes Khaleesi is going to rise Drogon XD!
ReplyDeleteAnd there were Dragons! Love the look on Tyrion's face!
ReplyDeleteOh Shireen... :(
he probably didn't honestly believe until that moment came.
ReplyDeleteI hope Drogon will lead Danaerys to her nephew.
ReplyDeleteHoly shit, Stannis. This hit me almost as hard as The RW. The first half was great, the second not so much. The choreography was just as bad, as with the Sand Snakes fight in episode 6, and as for the ending, it was the first the first time when the limitations of a TV budget really showed. It still looked much better than most of the other TV shows, but the shots with Daenerys flying on Drogon were seriously distracting and took away a lot of gravity from that moment.
ReplyDeleteCan you only imagine Davos' reaction to what Stannis did....
ReplyDeleteOMG! I think I just had my first hot flash like 15 years too early! ;)
ReplyDeleteThose shots were the gravity of the moment.
ReplyDeleteYeah, can´t see Davos or anyone else in their right mind supporting Stannis. Davos is going to lose his shit. To this day I was a Stannis supporter, but this was too much.
ReplyDeleteOh my, here I go again, speechless!
ReplyDeleteI think he knew. The theme of gift giving just keeps on giving...
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, I love the show, but it looked extremely fake and very cheesy. The fight with Drogon was pretty good, but once Daenerys climbed on him, it was about as believable as the Falcor flying scene from Never Ending Story.
ReplyDeleteChaos is the perfect theme for this season. Everything is heading towards the chaos of the whitewalkers. That burning at the stake scene was probably one of the hardest scenes to watch on the show. And the final scene was intense.
ReplyDeleteSo a Dothraki warrior, a Baavosi Waterdancer, a Meereenese spearman, a Bearded Priest of Norvos, and a Westrosi knight walk into a bar, but the bar is a gladiator pit... and a dragon steels the show! Nice!!
ReplyDeleteDorne:
- I enjoyed seeing Doran Martel establish himself in this episode. He may not rush into war angrily, but he is not a complete pacifist either!
- I loved how Trystane's one condition was that Bronn be punched by Areo Hoath! XD
- Jaime may protest to be Myrcella's uncle, but he acts like a dad seeing his daughter going out to a party - "That's a nice dress, honey. where's the rest of it?" XD
- I'm not sure Ellaria is done scheming just yet....
Outside Winterfell:
- I suspected Selyse would beg for Shirren's life based on promos last week. Even her fanatical views have their limits- a mother's love. However, even love was not enough to make Stannissave Shireen from the fire. His faith in destiny seems to ovepower anything else in its path.
The Wall:
- I loved how Sam looked at Wun Wun! XD
- The Night's Watch brothers did not seem happy to see the Wildlings inside the Wall.. I wonder if that may have consequences next week? XD
Braavos:
- Arya following Trant into the brorthel played out differently than I expected, but it was a strong scene. I hope it's not set up for next week.. Arya is young. Trant likes them young. No. Just no!
Meereen:
- Tyrion is worth more than his wieght in gold. Period!
- Hizdhar...I think he finally got the point.
Daenerys mounting Drogon's back in Daznak's pit was one of teh most visually powerful scenes of the books and I think D&D did it justice! I did dislike the slightly-too-long dramatic moment between Dany and Drogon, but the spear piercing Drogon to end it seemed almost like a nod by D&D to how silly that extended pause was. Overall a good scene!
Another awesome episode to build up to the season's finale. Bring it on!
That ending tho!!!!!!! OMG I was on the edge of my seat the whole time! Good job GOT
ReplyDeleteYep.
ReplyDeleteSelyse may be a fanatic of R'hllor, but she is a mother. The parental love won out in the end, but too little too late.
Lets hope that the dragons are going to save the day when the white walkers chaos begin!
ReplyDeleteBy the way: After Shireen's death Jon Targaryen became also the heir of Stannis (Rhaelle Targaryen is the grandmother of Robert and Stannis - so Stannis and Rhaegar were cousins)
ReplyDeleteDefinitely. On a side note, I thought this was pretty good representations for the final moments of tonights episode :)
ReplyDeleteI thought it was pretty good for a TV series, but not great at all..
ReplyDeleteI wish they would have disguised their limitations by showing Dany flying off on Drogon from Tyrion's perspective only. I think they could have pulled that off better than seeing Dany's perspective from on Drogon.
He knew for sure... *nods*
ReplyDeleteI thought at the time that he looked suspicious but I cannot believe that he would have gone knowing for certain that it would. I felt Davos' scene with her was not one of saying goodbye but another "Shireen"moment meant to shred our hearts before her inevitable death. I wish I had muted the sound and not heard the screams, almost as bad as showing it.
ReplyDeleteMe too.
ReplyDeleteEven if the flying felt a bit off to me... I think for the limits they had they did a good job. I think 85% of the scene was awesome.... 10% tolerable.. and 5% a let down. Overall I think it was as great as I hoped it would be!
ETA:
ReplyDeleteWho was the sixth gladiator in the ring with Jorah? A Wildling? A Hill's tribesman? Ironborn?
Crackpot theory: Next season, stannis will die in the battle of winterfell and is going to name jon as his heir.
ReplyDeleteStannis.............I can't believe he did "IT".............he actually did "IT"..............Davos will be beyond consoling over the "Princess Shireen of House Baratheon (RIP). With Stannis' chose Jon "Snow" is now and truly the "Protector of the realm of Men and Defender of Westeros" against the "White Walkers" and their "Army of the Dead".............that is until Dani's dragons are full grown and she leads her army across the "Narrow Sea" to Westeros (can Jon last that long?). Until then may the 7 (old and new) watch over the Free Folk, the Night's Watch, and their Lord Commander of the Wall, Jon "Snow"! 4 A GAME OF DRAGONS AND HARPIES, I will remain Nobody!!!
ReplyDeleteTheres also this one going around (which is my childhood!)
ReplyDeletehttps://twitter.com/daplusk/status/607727414295134208
I agree, it was good for TV standards, some parts where a bit off but still a great scene :)
Yeah it certainly did have a Neverending Story feel to it now that I see this XD
ReplyDeleteI remember it form my childhood too, even then I thought it was cheesy! XD
Yep, super cheesy but fun :)
ReplyDeleteI re-watched the episode and I don;t find the scene in Daznak's pit as bad as on first viewing honestly, but I was left with one thought... Ow!
ReplyDeleteAfter sitting on the back/neck of Drogon sitting on the Iron Throne would feel like a massage to Dany!
Wow how I love this show
ReplyDeleteOH MY GOD, I don't think I've ever screamed "HELL YEAH" so loudly before tonight at Drogon's epic entrance into the fighting pit and setting a whole lot of Sons of the Harpy on fire!!! and when he and Daenerys flew off into the sunset!!! and everyone's reactions down below, lol. Especially Tyrion. It was amazeballs!!! Just when it seemed like all hope was lost, a freaking badass dragon comes in and saves the day :D So beautiful.
ReplyDeleteDefinitely not beautiful though was Shireen's horrific death :( I can stomach a lot of things on this show and I'm usually not squeamish easily but seeing a child being burned to death just crosses the line for me at that point. Oh Stannis, you're definitely not going to win father of the year anytime soon after what you just did to your only daughter. I actually thought that you had a chance on the Iron Throne but I'm definitely not rooting for you to get there anymore. And the grin on Melisandre's face just infuriated me even more. Davis will certainly not take this lightly when he finds out! But I have a feeling that he had suspicions before he left to Castle Black...
Jon's look of defeat when he went back to the Wall just says it all. Looks like he's about to have a lot more enemies than he had before considering those pissed off Night's Watchmen...
Can't wait to see how this all culminates in next week's finale! Should be another awesome finale like always.
Ha! I love how you payed attention to all the different nationalities of the pit-fighters!!
ReplyDeleteBy far the weakest of the 9th episodes. It had its moments. I actually enjoyed the Dorne scenes for the first time this season. Davos was great with his gift, it's too bad that it'll be all the more heartbreaking when he returns. And I really do hope that Arya kills Ser Meryn - The Child Abuser (now in more ways than 1).
ReplyDeleteThe 2 big things this episode obviously were Shireen and the fighting pits. Shireen, goddamn it Stannis. I thought you wouldn't sink so low. I thought Ramsay would kill you, and Melisandre would sacrifice Shireen to bring you back and you'd be pissed. Now, seeing Selyse care more about your daughter's death than you, well I look forward to either Brienne or Ramsay killing you. Rest now, Shireen. You were too good for that world anyway.
The final bit with the fighting pits, while entertaining, definitely didn't have the pizazz that I expect out of the 9th episode of a season. Jorah fighting was cool, but sad to see him struggle for so much of it. But his spear throw to take out the first Harpy was bad ass! Tyrion getting a kill and saving Melisandre (who, by the way, is looking mighty fine) was great. Drogon showing up was the highlight and him wiping out tons of the Harpies was sweet, but rather short.
All in all, a fairly good episode, one of the better ones of the season (which at this point, isn't hard), but moderate in terms of the show's quality of the previous seasons.
Thanks! XD
ReplyDeleteI could figure out all but the one who looked like a shirtless Viking....
Oh well.
Tyrion saved Missandei not Melisandre... Damn too close and confusing names! XD
ReplyDeleteHow does gretscale spread? Wouldnt Dany now have it that she grabbed Jorahs hand?
ReplyDeleteGood question!
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure there is any detailed answer given. Touch , but is it any touch or a prolonged touch or by blood, sweat, and fluids etc.... Not sure I know at least.
The minute Stann is sent him back to wall and would not allow either woman to travel with him, was the moment he knew. His gift was goodbye gift and I think he's just not in position to challenge Stannis and Melessandre again. im hoping though that one way or another there could be some justice before the end of the finale...
ReplyDeleteI don't watch the show but I always make it a point to catch any and all dragon scenes. So, for me, Drogon's scene was quite great. Another thing I love about the dragon scenes is the background score. Haunting and awesome at the same time.
ReplyDeleteIt a was great, but I liked last week's episode better. Just two things:
ReplyDelete- Shireen: I know by know how cruel GoT can get, but this was one of the cruelest scenes, couldn't they have given her a quick death? Burning your loving daugther alive Stannis, really???
- Drogon: I kept thinking "where's Drogon? Come Drogon!"
Everyone is saying how awesome, epic that final sequence or scene were, but I can only imagine Jorah, Tyrion and company thinking "um....what about us???" There were still a lot of Sons of the Harpy killing people, as far as you could see.
In the immortal words of Homer Simpson: "D'oh!" Thanks for catching that, I'll correct that. Now I feel silly.
ReplyDeleteI too am curious how it'll play out with Trystane in King's Landing. I'm actually curious to see Jaime's reaction to everything that's happened to Cersei this season. That should be interesting.
Have you read the book f Neverending Story? It is quite wonderful. I did like the movie but the book is SO much better I doubt I'll ever see the movie again haha. For some reason it seems to always spark something in my soul as weird as that sounds.
ReplyDeleteI had a bit of a giggle thinking of Tyrion, Jorah, and to a lesser degree Missandei all wondering what they were supposed to do now! XD
ReplyDeleteSeems likely the combination of Jorah and Tyrion will take the place of Ser Selmy in the books by rallying what remains of Dany's army to control the city.... I would like if the first Meereen scene next year is the bulk of Dany's Unsullied entering the pit and just slaughtering the remaining Sons of the Harpy!
I'm not sure I ever did read the book....
ReplyDeleteI was a pretty avid reader when young though.... and I vaguely recall reading it, but no detail recognition whatsoever. I may be merging the book and movie together in my mind or I never read the book at all... Hmmm..
Scene next year? Or next episode? But yes, please slaughter the Sons of the Harpy, they are annoying by now.
ReplyDeleteI could be wrong, but I think we saw the last of Meereen for this season....
ReplyDeleteWe will see Dany land on the Dothraki Sea.... but not sure the city of Meereen will have a resolution this season.
You think it'll be mostly Winterfell, maybe some King's Landing with a touch of Dorne?
ReplyDelete... and The Wall!
ReplyDeleteI could be wrong though...
Chronogically speaking if they show Dany landing then they need to show how Tyrion and company survived the pit as well. It would not make much sense to begin next year with it now that I think of it... Maybe just a short exposition scene where they recap how they survived etc....
*Shrug*
Well...7 days and counting ;)
ReplyDeleteAfter the Shireen scene, if they had actually killed Drogon, i'd have been out for good. No joke.
ReplyDeleteI think i might be done. After Stannis sacrificed Shireen I couldn't even finish the episode, which sucks because as a book reader I knew what was coming next with Dany and it was a scene I've been looking forward to all season. I just couldn't bring myself to care.
ReplyDeleteNot sure why this is the thing that gets me to stop watching. I got through the Red Wedding, saw characters I loved a lot more than Shireen die. All of them hit me hard, but in a way that was oddly satisfying from a narrative standpoint. This just left me feeling sick and empty.
Anyway, sorry if I'm being a downer. Just needed a moment to vent.
He wouldn't have much of a reaction as he expected it and did what he could to save her.
ReplyDeleteYet another terrible episode in my opinion. It's like D&D never took the time to understand these characters and their storylines, they just took all the seemingly "cool" (and by cool they mean violence and cruelty against women) elements from the books and strip it of all its significance. And maybe instead of all the rape scenes they were so proud of they could have spent more time showing us how complex and complicated Slaver's Bay and Dany's character really is (this simplyfied version of Dany's arc was rather ridiculous). Anyway, I'm gonna watch the season finale but I'm out after that!
ReplyDeleteIs it just me, or did we see some 'Winds of Winter' stuff this episode with Arya? GRRM released an Arya chapter some months ago that made those scenes feel eerily familiar. By the way, Meryn Trant needs to die...like a LOT. Gross.
ReplyDeleteI was really surprised when they killed Dany's hubbie. I thought he was from one of the rich Mereenese families.
ReplyDeleteI love how after every episode there's a stream of people saying they're not going to watch anymore.
ReplyDeleteLike they just realized what type of show they've been watching for FIVE YEARS!!
The show is what it is, and it hasn't changed since season 1.
I thought the same when I see the scene.
ReplyDeleteFuck Stannis, I hope his die after he did with Shireen, man that scene was really cruel. The final scene with Dani and Drogon was epic.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, I felt like the Shireen scene was a bit unearned in terms of her parents. I wouldn't put it past Stannis to eventually do that, but I don't think the arc beforehand really placed him in a position where I'd believe he would go through with it. Shows the dangers of fanaticism, but this has turned him into a 100% villain, and he is more interesting than that.
ReplyDeleteLoved the final dragon scene, though.
A review: http://polarbearstv.com/2015/06/08/game-of-thrones-the-dance-of-dragons-review-5x09/
Well he might regret saving Stanni's nephew. I know that's what I was thinking the entire time... Robert's bastard didn't deserve it but Shireen was even more innocent.
ReplyDeleteDavos saves Stannis' nephew (Robert's bastard) only to seal the fate of Shireen. That and the emotional Stannis/Shireen scene early in the season (which was the highlight of the season until last episode, IMO) really makes me wonder if the showrunners did right by the books/layout of George's story. I'm guessing Shireens sacrifice was paramount in the books. If not, the arguably best show ever on TV has egg on it's face after tonight, IMO.
ReplyDeleteI wish Melisandre dies the most horrible, awfull way there is in this show. This is what sealed Stannis fate, I can bet Davos himself will kill him no matter if Melisandre take his life later. Shireen ahd no matter being there, she only served as a sacrifice lamb.
ReplyDeleteThat guy being a pedophile was disgusting not even teh guards could stand that for a moment i thought he was gonna ask Arya to stay.
Drogon saved Dani but who's gonna save the others?
I had legit tears at that pyre seen. Sweet loyal Shireen. Very hard to watch. While I expected this eventuality I wasn't prepared for how it would make me feel. It's so depressing when the good guys hardly ever win. The cruelty of this...ugh. Such a sweet girl she was.
ReplyDeleteJon isn't a Targaryen though, he's believed to be a Targaryen's bastard. Bastards don't inherit.
ReplyDeleteHer story in the books is gonna be similar.
ReplyDeleteNo. He's not a bastard. Rhaegar and Lyanna married.
ReplyDeleteHe was I think, maybe they didn't care who they were killing, or maybe they saw him as a traitor for being with Dany? Who knows. Not much of a loss though.
ReplyDeleteBetter then the last one (the last was was epic) :)
ReplyDeleteAs a book reader, I was waiting for that Daenerys scene for a while and it did not disappoint.
Certainly the final scene, but more specifically Drogon's first blast of fire breath and the way it was shot with Drogon storming in and consuming the entire left side of the frame, followed by Tyrion's expression horror and awe as he watches the harpies burn. Brilliant stuff!
ReplyDeleteI don't get the Stannis hate....
ReplyDeleteStannis believes he is or will be the savior of Westeros who will defeat the White Walkers and save humanity. To him the sacrifice of his daughter was a necessary step on the way to saving Westeros. It parallels the hero who originally defeated the White Walkers during the Long Darkness, Azor Ahai. He plunged his sword into his loved one's heart because he thought it was a necessary sacrifice to save humanity.
At worst letting Shireen burn is akin to the age old ethics question of would you sacrifice one life to save multitudes. The sacrifice being his daughter highlights the lengths he'll go to save mankind.
Like Melisandre said in Season 2 after Stannis was defeated at Blackwater..
"This war is just begun. It will last for years. Thousands will die at your command. You will betray the men serving you. You will betray your family. You will betray everything you once held dear… and it will all be worth it, because you are the Son of Fire. You are the Warrior of Light."
Nor sure I believe in all of her prophecies or frankly anything she says, but the point is Stannis does.
Interestingly enough, her words could also apply to Jon Snow! Just saying....
Well, Rhaegar was already married to Elia Martell. I think she was murdered after he died, so he couldn't have married anyone else.
ReplyDeleteNormally I would agree with you, but to me it's more that the quality of the writing no longer justifies the brutality of the show. The writers were clearly trying to build up Stannis' relationship with Shireen in order to... what? Make us feel sorry for him, show how big of a sacrifice this was, make Stannis a more layered character? Imo, they failed across the board. Even if the goal was to make us hate him, it didn't work for me. All this did was erase what little development Stannis had and worse, make him feel inconsistent. I wish I hated Stannis, but I really just don't care about him anymore because he doesn't feel realistic after this episode.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Davos clearly knew, or at least strongly suspected what was going to happen. Are we really expected to believe that he would risk his life to save Gendry, a boy he barely knew, but do nothing to rescue Shireen? Again, it would be one thing if he was totally in the dark, but the scene where he gave her the wooden deer was presented as him saying goodbye on some level, and instead of it being sweet or tragic or whatever the writers were going for, my reaction is just, "Seriously? A DEER? That's it?!"
If Selyse had gone behind Stannis' back and burned Shireen without him knowing, I might have actually loved this episode. That would have been a tragedy. That would have made me care about Stannis going forward. I don't care if the show kicks me in the proverbial gut if it's adding something to the narrative. Joffrey beheading Ned did that. So did Walder Frey and Roose Bolton betraying Robb . This, in addition to being terrible to watch, made me feel less invested.
Having said all of that I have little doubt that I'll eventually start watching again, just like nearly everyone else who "quits the show". I've come too far to give up now. And obviously we'll all have different reactions to this. I've always had problems with people doing terrible things in the name of religion, so I may be somewhat biased. But for me, the show really took a hit this episode, and I don't think it's ever going to fully recover from it.
You should reword that to say, "AT BEST, letting Shireen burn is akin to the age old ethics question of would you sacrifice one life to save multitudes." AT WORST, Stannis just sold his soul (not to mention, the life of his daughter) to serve the interests of a power-hungry, wannabe high priestess.
ReplyDeleteLooking at it from Stannis's perspective (to me the only perspective that matters), I would disagree. I don't think he sees himself as serving Melisandre's interests as much as he sees himself serving the Seven Kingdoms.
ReplyDeleteFrom his perspective it was heroic sacrifice he made to save mankind even if it's very likely the reality will turn out to be something very different.
For the most part I loved it, but that scene with Shireen is one I will never be able to watch again. I got through it once, but hearing that sweet little girl screaming futilely for her parents to save her while she's being burned alive (by order of her loving father) was too much. The one saving grace of that scene is that Selyse in the end, couldn't go through with it. She tried to save her daughter though it was way too late. I understand she had to be alive for the sacrifice but why did she have to be conscious? Why couldn't they knock her out? Does the Lord of Light need their dying screams too? It's rare for a scene to bother me that much, but that one did it. Unfortunately though I knew it was coming the moment Stannis sent Davos away...
ReplyDeleteIt will be interesting to see if Arya follows through with her assignment or if she tries to get revenge on Trant. I wouldn't blame her if she did. Though that's if his attraction to little girls doesn't already put her in his line of sight. There are no words for how much that scene creeped me out.
I loved the last scene. Tyrion got to be a hero again and saved Missandei. People really need to stop underestimating him. I knew Drogon was going to show up (because really that was the only way Dany was getting out of there alive) but to see it happen was just awesome. Visually beautiful. And Tyrion's face the whole time was priceless. The skeptic couldn't deny was right in front of his eyes. Her riding off on the dragon was brilliantly done. I'm not sure how many times I've rewatched that scene now.
Looking at things from Charles Manson's perspective, the things he did probably made a whole lot of sense too. Does that mean I can't despise him anymore?
ReplyDeleteI don't see the comparison...
ReplyDeleteI'm not an expert on Manson, but wasn't he trying to bring on the start of an Armegeddon-like race war? Stannis is trying to save the world.
That's a slight difference to me! XD
I'm not even a fan of Stannis honestly. He would make a terrible king, but I do not see how making sacrifices to save mankind can be seen as worthy of hate. .. I thought Shireen's death was heartbreaking and tragic, but not remotely nefarious.
Different strokes and all that...
Obviously, the last episode was better (that was the best of this year) but I also enjoyed this one. Though Shireen parts were so heartbreaking. I was sure this would happen but I could have never been ready for this. I never truly liked Stannis, but he was growing on me till now. But now I despise him more than ever. Selyse surprised me, I never though she would care, even if it was too late. The Daenerys parts were the best and the last scene was epic. But I was like "Hey what about Tyrion and the bunch?" I was surprised she left them like that. What will happen to them now? Oh and I didn't expect Hizdahr to die. Didn't he actually marry Dany in the books? (I'm only at the third book now)
ReplyDeleteMy point being: Almost every pscho-killer in history has claimed to be a saviour with a manifest destiny of some kind at some point in his "career." Stannis is, at the very least, despicable to me because of the narcissism of his unquestioning,belief that HE and no one else would be the world's saviour. Narcissism is a despicable character trait all by itself, even when it doesn't cause you to sacrifice the life of your only daughter.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, you said that you didn't get the Stannis hate. I was just trying to help out ;-)
I didn't really notice the not-so-good special effects on the dragon on first viewing because I was too taken by the emotion of the scene, but on second and third viewing, it's true that it was a tiny bit of a let down. It looks clumsy and fake and it did remind me of the Neverending Story.
ReplyDeleteWas it just me or did it look like Daario deliberately let Dany's potential husband be murdered?
So does anyone else think that Shireen could be in the role of Mance (form the novel)? I'm tot sure what purpose it would exactly serve, but just a thought.
ReplyDeleteI saw someone mention that on a different site and it is a little intriguing I guess...
ReplyDeleteLike you I do not see a real point to it though.
Plus, I think they do not need some twist for that scene to make sense. It fit the character and it fit the moment...
Never know though..
Ask me for the past few years and I would have bet that Dany flying out of the pit would be the last scene of the season, but I was wrong on that! XD
I didn't like what happened of course, but I agree with you simply because the episode made the point through the conversation with Dany, her [former] Husband, Daario,, and Tyrion, about human purpose and for "what" cause in relation is there such a thing as a senseless death?
ReplyDeleteDany thought the games were a waste of human talent, something barbararic but it was pointed out that these people still have the right and may be no different than anyone else having a belief in their own purpose. For a moment she gets to see that, because ultimately that is Jorah's story, fighting to prove his love for her and a belief in her and her cause, but then Dany's former point gets made anyways, as all the talented fighters of the pit, could of all helped fight to save the people at coliseum of Mareene, if they all didn't just kill each other. And then there's the irony that her husbad was making claims when he has never fought and he died, and thene we have Dany who really never fought herself either, but she is juxtaposed with the story of Byron Swann!
Although I am wondering if Melesandre pulled a Mace/Rattleshirt with Shireene, I think in GOT the religion and belief system aspect will be moot, as I think it's all fate orientated and so things are going to happen for better or for worse...
they probably blew their budget at episode 8.
ReplyDeleteOMG so many sissy whining about poor CGI in the comments. I thonk that scene was great, the dragon was amazing, really well done, his muscle movements, all that great. The only think I did not like in that scene was that those masked morons almost killed the huge dragons with thise silly spears, Danny probably felt he was going to be killed so she decided to fly away on him. So she gave up her fight over the city? If so, what was the point of this story?
ReplyDeleteAfter your comments I watched the whole setpiece twice again today and I still cannot disagree more with your assessment - it was well done and beautiful and inspiring - when the dragon landed it was thrilling with the music and the emotions, and then heartbreaking as Drogon was being overcome, and finally soaring as Dany climbed aboard to save her child to the awe of her loyal courtiers and then soared away with them amazed in the last shot. Do not have any idea what you were watching.
ReplyDeleteRemember he also let her torch his brother in law and also murder his very own brother Renly B. with that nutsy shadow monster she birthed in the cave.
ReplyDeleteI still cannot believe it because he risked everything to save Robert's illegitimate son for whom he cared nothing . He loved Shireen and he is not the man you guys are saying he is that would let a little girl he loved be burned alive. My evidence is that Stannis knew this and that is why he sent him away.
ReplyDeleteDid not find it to be the weakest of the 9th episodes.
ReplyDeleteI've never really understood the Stannis love, in the same way I don't get the Dany love. I don't think he's the right man for the job, he's following the whim of a religious megalomaniac - whose reaction to the camp being set on fire, an element she is supposedly able to control, is to stand there like a dazed hare caught in the headlights. Plus, he can't inspire people to follow him, even after burning and murdering others as an example, or by offering 'bribes' of what he will do for them once he is king.
ReplyDeleteI found this amusing though, lol.
http://i.imgur.com/YZ13kzM.jpg
I had a problem in Dorne with the Sand Snakes playing patty-cake -patty-cake in their cell. I think the overall handling of the Sand Snakes element has been the weakest of the story telling so far in the series - but even so , it is still a magnificent series.
ReplyDeleteI watched it two more times and my perception of the whole extended scene got better with each viewing. When Drogon landed it was a beautifully rendered image of the dragon.
ReplyDeleteYep, it hasn't changed since episode 1, when Jamie pushed Bran out of that window thinking that the fall would kill him.
ReplyDeleteHa! XD
ReplyDeleteThat encapsulates my feelings about fan reactions to last night's episode and Stannis perfectly! For that matter how fans reacted to any number of controversial scenes this season.
If a person has watched 5 seasons of Game of thrones and can be shocked or outraged by anything that happened this year they must have a selective memory! No scene this year was worse than anything that happened in previous seasons... It's a strife filled and tragic world on Game of Thrones!
I don't really get it either, it was totally within character for him to do what he did, and completely in keeping with the show for the scene to take place. As I've just mentioned in another comment, the very first episode had Bran nonchalantly being pushed out of a window to his death. There's very little difference here, (except most of the audience didn't have any connection with the character by that point) so the show hasn't changed it's content in anyway since.
ReplyDeleteI did not mind that cell scene honestly.
ReplyDeleteIt reminded me a lot of that game where you hold your hands over another person's hands who tries to slap your hand before you pull away.I used to play that with my sister so the scene felt very believable and real to me.
The sibling rivalry between the two of them felt natural to me as well even though I never had that kind of relationship with my siblings.
That said, I agree that the Dorne arc has been one of the weakest so far. I disliked Dany in Quarth more and I was more disappointed by Jon with Qhorin, but so far I do not see the point to this Drone arc...
If Trystane ends up being Aegon, or something of interest or importance occurs in the finale I may change my mind.
Pity it took seeing her burning at the stake to bring out the mother in her.
ReplyDeleteLol - my son n I both had the same thought : wow, that was a bit cheesy
ReplyDeleteAlthough, the moment they were surrounded we knew Dragon would be there to save Mommy. . . . Just a little concerned about those she left behind:
Tyrion
Dario
Jorah
Missandei
I was thinking of that scene when I wrote my comment...
ReplyDeleteI understood the shock and horror of people who were exposed to the Game of Thrones world for the first time seeing Bran be shot-putted out a window.
That was so unexpected and different from everything else on TV, but over the last four years the show has delineated how cruel and tragic the world is.
People expecting good people to get their rewards and bad people to get their punishment are not grasping the world GRRM created XD
I hope Trystane isn't Aegon, too young for me I think. I have been wondering if Tommen could be taken out in the finale though, by a certain spider. That would leave a way for a younger a prettier queen to finally take the throne as seen in Cersei's flashback in opening episode, albeit one that no-one ever really thought of before. Could be a nice round off to the season I feel.
ReplyDeleteI liked the rendering for the most part as well. Probably some of the best work I've seen... at least on TV.
ReplyDeleteI think the staging bothered me more than anything. The silly extended quiet moment between Dany and Drogon as people all around them are trying to kill them... The close up on Dany as she flies off. Both moments felt very awkward to me on first watch. They still do after seeing that scene a few times, but I can now ignore it and enjoy the moment without the awkwardness pulling me out.
Yes, but if Davos wouldn't have known, he wouldn't have tried to bring Shireen with him or give her a gift for no real "reason". They wanted to spare each other. Stannis sent Davos away, because he knew Davos doesn't approve and wanted to spare everyone a Gendry 2.0. And I also would argue that Stannis did love his daughter, despite what he did to her, he just believes in cause more. I think it actually speaks more to Davos beginning to believe in Stannis/Melisandre, than it did to even Stannis' own beliefs.
ReplyDeleteThe crux lies in Aemon's words from last season and Tyrion's from this season:
Love is the death of Duty (it was true for Aemon), Duty is the death of Love (True for Y'Griite & Jon Snow), Love can be the birth and continuation of Duty (Sam & Gilly), Duty can be the birth of Love (Jorah following Dany)...
Belief is the Death of Reason, but Reasons can also be the births of beliefs (like if someone seeks justice like killing Stannis for Killing Shireene or Remly--because they believe "justice" is their "right" no matter what "name" they want to put behind it. The episode points out a really complicated debate on human purpose verses what is or isn't senseless (see events and arguments disgust in the Pitt), but considering we are in a metaphysical universe, we have to assume that if there is eventual justice, than everything in the immediate sense is moot argument, because it's all predetermined, despite what any of the characters come to believe.
I do not expect Tryst to be Aegon, I was just using that as an example of something unexpected.
ReplyDeleteTommen being killed in the finale would work nicely that way! Sansa or Maegery are always discussed as the younger, more beautiful queen, but Cersei's own daughter being that queen would be a nice twist!
I think I would still want something more out of the Dorne arc other than using it as a reintroduction to the future Queen Myrcella.
The point that Dany makes - one that Hizdahr completely ignores - is whether those people are fighting for their own reasons of someone else's? Being slaves in all but name, Dan correctly figures that most of these men are being forced to fight for their master's reasons - and that is wrong. Compare it to Shireen, who didn't walk up to the fire to sacrifice herself for her own reasons, but was forced onto it for her father's.
ReplyDeleteDarque - have a question. ....... been bothering me since Jorah was infected
ReplyDeleteGrey Scale is highly contagious, yet Jorah has been touching people.
He's had contact w Tyrion, and this week he took Kahleesi By The Hand, are we not supposed to be concerned ?!?
Maybe it gets passed on only if you touch the infected area.
ReplyDeleteI don't get why they hate him specifically after this episode. I've never been much of a Stannis fan - anyone who let's a religious fanatic manipulate him, I find hard to admire. There are plenty of other things about him that I find objectionable. But one of his few redeeming qualities is his commitment to what he regards as his duty. Unlike Mel, he doesn't pretend that anything he does in service of his duty is just and good - he seems to get that his actions are evil, but necessary. What he did here was more of that.
ReplyDeleteAhh got you. Yes, I agree that there has to be some twist there in Dorne, it's all been a bit lackluster so far, Doctor Bashir has been very underused! That's the reason I have come up with my Myrcella as queen theory after last night's episode, anything to make this story more worthwhile, lol.
ReplyDeleteI was wondering if they might be hiding Aegon at the garden before last night, and would hitch him to Jamie to take back to KL instead of Jon C. But now with Tryst and Myrcella on their way it could be interesting to see them on the throne, esp if we have Cersei and Ellaria snapping at each other behind it XD
Someone asked that above and teh truth is I'm just not sure! XD
ReplyDeleteSome people think that Targaryens are immune to Greyscale, but I'm fairly sure a Targ princess died of Greyscale at some point of the Targaryen rule... I forget who.
It may be infected persons spread it if the infected part is touched or if their blood contacts another person.. I just do not know. I don't think the books give details on the topic...
To Dany it's wrong, but not to necessarily everyone else. When she sees Jorah, she sees that not everyone is fighting simply for a slave owner's esle's beliefs, but that assumption, can in some cases, be false facades, because like Jorah, people can "intentionally" become a slaves to prove something to someone else or themselves. Not all slaves by accident. and Not all slaves are good people, just because they are slaves...
ReplyDeletePlus: as Darque pointed out, a lot of these fighters in the ring were of interesting nationalities, which may point out that not all of them were initially slaves to begin with, as they have "trained" talents in some cases, like The Waterdancer for instance...
Yes, but Shireen did offer to help her father, without ever asking how! But again all is moot, because there is possibility of pre-determination in this universe, as that is the point of righting mass juxtaposed history, having character not only see the past, but the future, and using animals, elements, and seasons to point out "nature and cycles".
There is a big difference though - the scenes in the past seasons have usually been from the books. So most of the fans had a lot of time to prepare themselves. Even the hardcore fans who don't read the books, would have many things spoiled for them. Since a lot more events this year are completely new, the fan reaction is a lot more visceral.
ReplyDelete? possible ?
ReplyDeleteJust found it a tad contradictory, as anyone one who's talked about it, or when it's described, it's HIGHLY contagious. Even Jorah reaction to Tyrion's Possible contact. Yet here he is, giving His Queen - the woman he loves and is devoted to, even unto death - his hand.
I guess you capture my thoughts better than I did.
ReplyDeleteI see his actions in this episode as par for the course. He already had his brother killed via dark magick, burned his uncle-in-law at the stake for favorable winds, and was willing to burn his nephew. This episode was just more of the same from Stannis.
Really? Which one did you find weaker?
ReplyDeleteLet's say that the virus (or whatever) that causes the infection is limited to the patch that's turned grey. Direct contact with the infected area - and for the stone men, its their whole body - is highly contagious. Secondary contact - Jorah scratches the skin and then shakes someone else's hand - is less but still high. Tertiary contact - Jorah scratches, wipes his hand and then gives the cloth to Tyrion to blow his nose - is even less so. And so on. This seems pretty possible to me.
ReplyDeleteOh,sure, we all know that game - I was just kidding around when I called it patty-cake ( which it looked more like them actually playing instead of what was intended) . It is just that there seem to have been a few missteps this season - the Sand Snake scenes , the killing of Karsi so soon when she had the potential to be a great layered character - but,hey, this is a mammoth, Wilding Giant scaled production and everything cannot be perfect. I bet if we went back and viewed Season One now we would see how obviously they were under great budget constraints, but still managed to pull off a mostly beautiful production.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it is infectious only if you touch the infected area - I know I sucked it in when Dany took Jorah 's hand. But Shireen was infected as a baby by only a toy doll touching her face, so what's up....
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of people got his character arc backwards. He was a dick when he had Renly assassinated. He started growing a conscience after his loss at Blackwater. He started feeling guilty about Renly. He debated killing Gendry. He chose to focus on his duty of protecting the realm instead of his rights as king. And then, with his love for Shireen, he finally became a full-fledged member of the human race. If that's how they see his character development, then killing Shireen would seem like a big step backwards to them.
ReplyDeleteI see it the other way around. The way I see it, he has always had doubts about these actions he saw clearly saw evil, but he always chose his duty over his moral qualms. We just didn't see those qualms until later. Seen that way, his actions seem pretty consistent.
That's very true.
ReplyDeleteMaybe I am just not as reactionary as many people then? Even when reading the books I rarely found myself hating any characters, thinking they were irredeemable, or evil incarnate.
To me Stannis burning Shireen was always a future possibility in the books. I just do not find it shocking on any level. Then again I do not find something more impactful just because it happens to or concerns a child.
Did not mean others were weaker - meant this one was not weaker than
ReplyDeleteYou are missing the key point here - the question of choice. Most of the fighters we saw were probably bought like Jorah - sold in chains and given a penny to be nominally free. Unlike Jorah - who consistently chooses to come back - others probably don't have the option. Dany assumes that they don't have a choice here. She assumes that they are being forced to fight and forced to pretend to be free in front of her and she is probably right in many cases.
ReplyDeleteReally? As a book reader, I was a little disappointed in the scene. In the books, Drogon was burning everything in sight and eating anything he could get his jaws on until Dany - like a motherf***ing bad**s - literally whipped him into submission. I wanted to see more tamer of dragons and less mother or dragons.
ReplyDeleteI really don't think Davos would be the one to kill Stannis. He is way too loyal to him and while he frequently criticizes his methods, he does think that Stannis' goal is just.
ReplyDeleteNext episode's promo shows Dany's musketeers sitting int eh throne room, kinda depressed. So I guess we will go back to Mereen next season.
ReplyDeleteI think Drogon pretty much decimated the Harpies. A lot of them also ran away. I think it'd be easy for the others to fight their way out with only a few Harpies remaining and then corral their forces.
ReplyDeleteBut the episode or the series isn't just about these slaves or the slaves of essos exactly. It's that human beings are limited in knowledge and scope of the true nature of their reality, and therefor ever only know so much about what the truth is making us all flawed and full of mistakes (ie: you know nothing, Jon snow). Everybody is a slave to something, whether it be by choice or circumstance, but in truth we are all at the expense of each other's choices. None of us can do whatever we want, when ever we want to. We all have to make compromises and sacrifices if we want to attempt to exist and there we have to come up with "reasons" and "beliefs" for that existence, as apart of being so conscientiously aware of these things. That is part of the lesson that even Dany is starting to learn.
ReplyDeleteDany believing she should be the Queen via birthright, is taking away Stannis, Tomman/Cersie. and/or anyone else's right to rule Westoros, and they are taking away her right, and the white walkers, argumentative a force of nature, will take away from all of them, for at least a time...
I think they shifted the formula a bit this season. Usually episode 9 is one where we get a great battle or some momentous character deaths. Shireen was a secondary character and the battle in the pits wasn't that great. I'd say that they shifted the "holy crap" factor to episde 8 for this season.
ReplyDeleteI do not think Davos' character is either as simple or as complicated as you are making a case for it to be. I think he has deep feelings about what is right and what is not.
ReplyDeleteTrystane seems too Dornish to be Aegon. He'd need to have silver hair and violet eyes to prove Targ heritage. Besides, Aegon is supposed to be older than Dany and Robb and Jon - which Trystane clearly isn't. Though, I'm still hoping that Doran reveals some sort of master plane to Ellaria in the next episode.
ReplyDeleteYes, they spread out the wow factor more, but I think they also gave us more wow moments.
ReplyDeleteNot after Maegor they didn't.
ReplyDeleteIf he would, he would have never come back to and remained with Stannis. He would of left sometime to fight another cause or he would of died for his morality.
ReplyDeleteDid Trant seem to recognize Arya (not like "Holy Shit - that's the Stark chick who got away", but more of "Where have I seen her before?") or did he just have hots for another underage girl?
ReplyDeleteIn my imaginary perfect world about an imaginary world Davos would be the one to eventually kill Melisandre and say "For Shireen" as he does it but they probably have some grand apocalyptic death planned for her instead.
ReplyDeleteWell I never said that I don't think justice won't be served at some point, but that every character is imperfect and every character is playing a role in events that are bigger than themselves. You have to remember Davos went back to Stannis even after regrets he had with loosing his son. Whatever the reason, Davos has either been too scared to really act out against him, or feels that he owes him his life...I'm kind of hoping that Sansa or Brienne might bring some justice there...I also wonder if Shireene is in fact dead, because there is another melisandre plot in the novels that's in theory could be used here, but I haven't been able to come up for a good reason for it in terms of the story's, unless it was about Davos promise and loyalty...
ReplyDeleteInteresting - except an interview came out yesterday that GRRM had told Weiss and Benioff that Stannis is going to sacrifice Shireen in the books so they incorporated it into show. But I suppose that still would not preclude your theory of a possible resurrection. I know I have been trying to figure how Jon comes back ( come on - he HAS to come back ) after the event at the end of the last book. Been wondering if Ghost transfers his wounds to him maybe. I wonder if GRRM will really be able to get the next book out before GOT's next season as he has stated he is trying to do. As slow as he is, that will be a wonder if it happens.
ReplyDeleteIn part I completely agree with that. But the minimal out cry for Meryn Trant's rape of an obviously under age girl compared to Shireen's burning, or indeed Sansa's rape, does seem to suggest that it could be an issue some fans have with how they see a favourite character being portrayed rather than the acts themselves at times too.
ReplyDeleteWho cares how often they practiced polygamous marriages before Rhaegar did so?
ReplyDeleteJon can and will be released from his oath. (like Jaime also could have been released from his king's guard oath) Jon has sworn the oath as Jon Snow berfore he knew who he is. After the season finale he won't be a man of the Watch anymore.
You seem to have a pretty broad definition of slavery. Mine is a lot more concise - forceful servitude of one human to another. Things like truth or knowledge of reality or compromises or sacrifices don't enter into it. If you believe in something or someone of your choosing like Jorah and Dario and the Unsullied do for Dany - then you are living and dying for your own reason, even if it has been borrowed from someone else. If you are being forced to live and die by someone else's reason - like slaves and most of the pit-fighters probably are - then that is something Dany would fight against.
ReplyDeleteBrilliant episode but nowhere near as good as episode 8 (I'm doubting that even the finale will top it). Hearing Shireen's screams was hard to listen to. Drogon appearing was awesome and I was naturally cheering for him to burn them all (except the main group, of course).
ReplyDeleteVery true, the problem is that the show has potential to spoil the next book and that the producers have said we can see past events in the books passed by so far in TV show, still turn up in the TV show with just inverted event history. It puts us all in the same boat in terms of predictability!
ReplyDeleteNow that is outright fanfiction territory and has none of the ruthless realism characteristic of Martin's style.
ReplyDelete1. The Faith always had a problem with the Targs and their "unconventions" marriage practices. The only reasons the Targs could get away with anything was because of dragons and even then they couldn't get away with everything. Polygamy was no longer allowed for the Targs after Maegor. whose multiple wives drew the ire of faith as well. So no, Rhaegar didn't have the right to marry another while Elia was alive.
2. Jon takes his oath seriously. He had already been offered being made a Stark and Winterfell - something he'd always wanted - but he chose the Wall. Knowing a different heritage isn't likely to change that.
3. No one actually has the authority to release a Night's Watch member from his oath. The Kingsguard serve the King and even then everyone agreed what a colossally bad idea it was to release Selmy of his oath. The Night's Watch don't actually answer to anyone.
4. Even if Jon is released from the oath, all the other lords would still look down upon him. Most of them would still consider him an upjumped bastard and an oathbreaker - and that would make him a very bad leader.
5. Jon is as bad at playing politics as the rest of the Starks. A court's life is simply not for him.
The sheer number of unlikely plot convolutions that need to happen in order for Jon to end up where you want him veers this into fanfiction territory.
My theory for Jon is tied to Bran and the heart trees/weirwood, I think that will be the key to Jon coming back. I do wonder how far the finale will go with Jon's story, they are certainly building up to the end of the books for his arc, but won't it be a bit odd to know if he is filming or not next year if that is the case? It's a tricky one. I'd personally love them to go further and bring him back, I can see how book readers would not want to be spoiled, but it must be obvious that the show is going to finish way before the books do now :(
ReplyDeleteThis isn't about MY view on slavery, or even Danys views for that matter, it's about reckognising the contrasts of scenes and ideas to see several viewpoints and arguments, to better understand the kind of story George RR Martin is telling.
ReplyDeleteAnd here I thought that it was about the specific parallel of gladiators dying for their masters and Shireen dying for her father.
ReplyDeleteAll that needs to happen is Danaerys finding out that Jon is her nephew. That must happen soon - or everybody will soon be a White Walker. Jon is the only man who can unite all humans to fight the real theat. When Jon and the Dragons win the war against the White Walkers nobody will give a flying ''ck about all the dead lords who supported the Lannister-bastards.
ReplyDeleteJon already broke his oath.In the books Jon already broke the oath again just because he thought Arya would be in danger. After they try to kill their own Lord Commander there probably soon won't be a Watch anymore. There remain about 50 men and without Jon they won't make it.
By the way: I'm not a fan of Jon. Tyrion is by far my favorite character. I'm more angry about the Purple Wedding (Yes, I liked Joffrey) than about the Red Wedding. Also GOT by isn't even nearly my favorite TV show.
But I bet that Jon Targaryn will be king because GRRM made about 1000 hints. There's obviously nothing more important for GRRM than Jon's secret.
There isn't any king or mad "queen" who is good in politics. As Tywin said: Every king needs good advisors.
A king needs a good hand - and my favorite character will be the best hand Jon can ever get.
Your theory is a very good one and many agree with you. From all the shade the Men of the Watch are throwing at him - including Olly who will probably be the worst betrayer- it certainly is looking like they are going there in episode 10. We shall see. But I do not anticipate his being lost to the story as he is the only real romantic- heroic lead type player left on the board . And his ancestry is still technically a "mystery" though everyone in viewer-verse figures he is you know who. It seems like GRRM is OK with the shows getting ahead so he must have a really good relationship and trust with Weiss and Benioff.
ReplyDeleteWow... So an unknown nobody from the edge of the world with royal blood in him has a powerful benefactor and can inspire all men to set aside their petty squabbles and unite under his banner to fight an ancient and powerful evil force. Are we talking about Aragorn or Jon?
ReplyDeleteA lot of convoluted things need to happen for this scenario to occur. Dany is in no position to find out anything about Jon, since hardy anyone alive would know about him. Even if someone tells her, she is unlikely to believe them. Even if she does believe them, they'd still need to give a legitimate proof of marriage which the Faith can't or won't challenge - a whole other set of contrivances. And even with that, why would she simply give up her claim for a guy she barely knows? Why is Jon the only guy who can unite everyone against the threat? I'm pretty sure that once the threat becomes known, every house with a Valyrian sword would come up with their own Azor Ahai. And just being a Targ doesn't guarantee having a dragon. And even with facing the Walkers, every house would still be maneuvering to get the biggest return out of it. As for the Watch - Jon is loyal to it even if he doesn't stick by the words. I don't see him breaking his oath to become a Lord or a King.
This kind of ideal endings don't fit the ruthlessly pragmatic world of GRRM. As a wise man once said "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."
Jon already managed to open the gate for Wildlings. He managed to become Lord Commander because he inspires people and doesn't just have king's blood. He's the only character who has power although he never wanted power. The only character who's selfless AND strong. This is not about a happy ending. All humans need Jon for even having any chance against the White Walker. They would fight each other until it is to late.
ReplyDeleteAfter being stabbed there obviously isn't any future for Jon at the Watch. He'll be nearly (GRRM already accidentaly confirmed that he survives) dead. (Maybe technically dead for a short period of time and therefore being releases from his oath) In the books Sam isn't there to protect him.I don't know who'll save Jon but obviously he won't be welcome anymore at the Wall.
I guess it will be Benjen Stark who saves his nephew and I guess he'll tell him the truth. If Benjen is alive (it seems we'll see him next week) he'll also know about evidence...
That's why I don't get all the outrage every time, after something horrible happens. People knew what they were getting themselves into and if they can't handle they shouldn't be watching.
ReplyDeleteThe killing of Shireen will change all that. Davos is going to be pissed!
ReplyDeleteThe whole point was to reaffirm the notion that Stannis will do anything for the crown, whether that's killing his brother or sacrificing his daughter. It's also meant to show that he's really no better than the Kings he's trying to replace. We're not supposed to like Stannis.
ReplyDeleteIt's also been confirmed that the same sacrifice is going to be made in the books.
Davos didn't know what was going to happen, and I'm not sure how you think he did. He wanted to bring them with him to the Wall because he never thought they should be out there in the first place. When Davos gets back he's going to be appalled at what Stannis did.
That is the plot (what I refer to as surface glitter), but it is not the heart or the only point of interest. Themes and ideas not only run through episodes, but seasons, and a series.
ReplyDeleteThis might better explain what I am getting at:
..."The crux lies in Aemon's words from last season and Tyrion's from this season:
Love is the death of Duty (it was true for Aemon), Duty is the death of Love (True for Y'Griite & Jon Snow), Love can be the birth and continuation of Duty (Sam & Gilly), Duty can be the birth of Love (Jorah following Dany)...
Belief is the Death of Reason, but Reasons can also be the births of beliefs (like if someone seeks justice like killing Stannis for Killing Shireene or Remly--because they believe "justice" is their "right" no matter what "name" they want to put behind it). The episode points out a really complicated debate on the right in choosing human purpose verses what is or isn't senseless action of said purpose (see events and arguments presented during the Pitt fighting), but considering we are in a metaphysical universe, we have to assume that if there is eventual karmatic justice, then everything in the immediate sense is often rendered moot argument, because it's all seems to be predetermined, despite what any of the characters come to believe...
It may or may not be a senseless action for any given person intended slave or not intended slave to fight for a reason/cause that is or is not their own. Again looking at Jorah, yes, he temporarily gets enslaved, but 1. it's to his benefit (because he wants to get back to Dany because he loves her and BELIEVES in her cause and some of her beliefs) and 2. it's a kind of redemption for him, because he was once a slave trader.
But he also is freed between fights for winning the first, is exiled by Dany again, and chooses to act as slave again to fight and prove his worth/devotion to the woman he loves and believes in---but he is not really free, despite not officially being enslaved, because of his belief in her beliefs. He feel obligated and is "fanatical" about it. So from that viewpoint, one can argue that Jorah is just, because he "chose" it, but of we look at Dany and some of the choices she has made, which includes the one to send him away and not forgive him to begin with, then you can see Jorah's plight as a senseless action, because Dany is not necessarily worthy of his devotion to her, but yet he keeps "forcing" that devotion onto her and proves that she could be dead without him, forcing her to possibly again rethink her approach to her causes, because she has yet to maintain control of the city...and using her dragons might not have been the solution she is looking for either, as there is still something from the books that seems to be happening in slightly altered events, that is not a result of this, instead of a cause...
And for the record, not all Gladiators that were brought to the Roman Arena were slaves!! They were originally apart of a cultures funeral customs, and they didn't always fight to the death and sometimes it was for fame and prize money--a tournament!
http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/10-things-you-may-not-know-about-roman-gladiators
I wonder that myself...
ReplyDeleteAt times it felt like he almost recognized as someone he knew, maybe not a Stark pup, but someone he had seen before. After other glances I thought he was just looking at a young girl as a predator looks at prey... I guess we see next week!
I've been wondering what they will do after "For the Watch" as well....
ReplyDeleteIn the books there is a consensus that warging may have something to do with it, but on the show D&D have stated before they want to keep Bran special by being the only skinchanger of the siblings.
That brings us to the Red Witch intervening as probably the second most popular theory, but on the show she is not near Castle Black.
I wonder if the wounds may be non-lethal on the TV show... For that matter we do not know exactly the outcome of the wounds in the book. Death may be an incorrect assumption even if it fits into many fan theories concerning J or R+L+J etc...
I like that idea for the show especially!
ReplyDeleteIt may fit the show's mytharc better than Ghost-warging or R'hollor to the rescue....
It will be interesting though!
If the show ends on the cliffhanger the internet may explode! XD
Nevermind the fact that production leaks will be major spoilers one way or another.... The freak out prior to the start of film season would be entertaining to witness! XD
Right, I heard the theory that it might be the Red Witch but not possible as she will be away from Castle Black for some time. So possibly another book departure ? And death just makes no sense at all for the story. Uncharted territory here for the first time since we as yet do not know when the book will be out . It will generate wild frenzy when the filming starts for next season to see what is being shot to get clues for the unknown, whereas before it was always confirmation of the known.
ReplyDeleteAt the beginning of the season, I had thought that one way or another Sansa might be put into the role of LSH and then season also had Tyrion mention Thoros of Myr's name and then introduce us to Stone Men, but now with both the fact we only have one episode left (doubtful that Thoros is close enough) and seeing how we may not even have a battle at Winterfell (to even use Melisandre instead), perhaps all of this will be dragged out...especially with theories centered around next season's first casting calls...
ReplyDeleteBut thinking about putting the Mace plot on Shireene, maybe Shireene ends up in Oldtown with a message about Sansa, and Sam (and Gilly and little Sam) comes across her eventually, but they leave to find Jon because of the changes and conquest caused by Euron Greyjoy and because they need to tell Jon about Sansa...and then from there could we consider Melisandre or Thoros for Jon's plot, unless like Darque said, he isn't officially considered dead to begin with. (but I like the direwolf plot for him better)
I don't know if I can buy Melisandre resurrecting, when she seemed a bit puzzled by Thoros doing it, but who knows. Anyways just an idea. unlikely, but might as well put it out there...
A king who doesn't want power wouldn't keep it for long. And as has been said - winning and ruling aren't the same thing. Jon might be able help people win against the Walkers, but that doesn't mean he'd make a good ruler and you'd have a hard time convincing anyone in the seven kingdoms that he would. Just because Jon is "selfless and strong and doesn't want power" universe will pave his way to sit on the Iron Throne - that kind of idealism is more Tolkein than Martin.
ReplyDeleteWhy would it change anything?
ReplyDeleteYou say a lot of stuff here, but I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Are you just trying to say that we should judge characters' actions after putting them in context and checking their viewpoint?
ReplyDeleteCause he cared for Shireen and he's not going to just be fine with what Stannis did.
ReplyDeleteDavos saved Gendry from death (cause he thought it was wrong) and he didn't even know him.
How do you think he'll react when he finds out Stannis sacrificed his own daughter, who Davos actually loved?
Jon also didn't seek the power of a Lord Commander but he's already the best Lord Commander ever. With Tyrion as hand, Danaerys as "king's aunt" and Arya as Queen (Ok THAT can you call fanfiction at this point) Jon will be the best king ever.
ReplyDeleteI was watching the ninth episode of Game of Thrones' fifth season. :) You should check it out, with the exception of the bad CGI it was actually quite good.
ReplyDeleteThey don't seem to like anyone else but Bran warging on the show too much do they, and introducing R'hollor's opposite, along with his powers, needs to be done soon. A surprise Bran &/or Three Eyed Crow shot would be epic stuff.
ReplyDeleteComing from a realistic view, sad though it may be, it will be hard for them to keep secret how Jon is brought back I imagine. With half of the episodes having leaked this year, on top of any normal set spoilers, there's people out there desperate to get these details out....
After a night of thinking on this further, perhaps Varys carrying out Tommen's murder would be a bit too convenient. Neither Dany or Griff - if he is to appear later - are yet in any position to make it to KL as yet so it would be a premature move for now.
ReplyDeleteDoran could maybe have a plot that sees the Sand Snakes infiltrate the city and take Tommen out next season instead though, clearing the way for his son to take the throne. Him allowing Jamie to take Tryst & Myrcella to the capital would make more sense this way I feel? It would certainly be a way of avenging Elia's death to get a Prince of Dorne on The Iron Throne.
Sadly, it seems like the part of the price of a passionate fanbase is a desire for spoilers at any cost which to some people includes leaking materials or information as well.
ReplyDeleteI get the desire to know, but not the desire to leak. Just seems so disrespectful to me. If one likes a series I would think they would respect it as well... *Shrug*
In total agreement with you.
ReplyDeleteI don't expect him to be "just fine" - this would probably lead to a big emotional arc of "love vs duty" for him as well. Kind of like what Jon Snow went through when he found out about his father - does he ride off to join his brother or does he do his job and stay at the wall? Davos would probably blame Mel for corrupting his King and struggle with the idea of staying loyal, but outright rebellion? I don't think so.
ReplyDeleteI like it...
ReplyDeleteI have suspected Doran sent Tyene to poison someone.... maybe the High Sparrow.... I go back and forth on the target... It feels to me like the Sand Snakes are infiltrating King's Landing Small Council, The Sparrows, The Citadel with great purpose.
In the books I can see Tyene using her mother's religious past to get in with the Sparrows, but on the show her mother is Ellaria so that is ruled out. Tommen would be the next target and would advance Doran's agenda far better than killing the High Sparrow now that I think of it!
I still think something will change in the next episode or early next season and Trystane will not be the only Dornish to make it to KL. I feel like something is missing or I am missing something!
Also, why would Jaime want Myrcella back in King's Landing with the current religious environment going on? Okay he may take the party back to KL, but stay? I don't think so!
Best Lord Commander ever? Are you kidding me? He got stabbed by his own men within a year of being elected. He alienated all his friends and loyalists and flouted so many conventions that they all turned against him. That speaks poorly of his leadership qualities. If he can't even inspire loyalty and devotion in the people who elected him. how is he supposed to do that for the Seven Kingdoms?
ReplyDeleteVarys wants a ruler "loved by millions, with a powerful army and the right family name". Jon doesn't have any of the above right now. Getting one of them would require a lot of unrealistic plot convolutions. Getting all three is downright impossible in Martin's world.
A good king shouldn't just surround himself with politically savvy advisers, he has to be politically savvy himself. Ned had some good advisers as did Robb - but because they kept being noble and honorable, both of them died. Jon would be no different.
Exactly, it feels like this move on to the Small Council for Tryst is preparing him for something doesn't it. As does Tyene's arc so far with Bronn and his poisoning - which otherwise seems a bit pointless if you ask me :p
ReplyDeleteYeah, it does feel as though something is still missing though. I do love speculating, and have plenty of wild ideas over what it could be, but nothing that feels 'right' as yet. They range from Lyanna's child or Aegon being swapped at birth and brought up in Dorne (or a false belief that they have), to wondering if/how/what Littlefinger has managed to promise him in return for his support. Lol.
I'm not sure how much Jamie knows about the High Sparrow, he left before Cersei put him in charge I think. It's possible that Doran could have stopped any news being passed on too, which may mean he has a plan to sort the sparrows out? Which brings me back to Littlefinger striking deals with Dorne XD
You might be right about Davos. There was just something extra desperate in the way he begged Stannis to let him take Shireen with him. No one can read Stannis better than Davos, arguably not even Melisandre. He could tell something was off. My guess is the thought definitely crossed his mind what was going to happen, but he told himself that Stannis would never do that. You're right. He's going to be furious when he finds out. But I think we'll also see a hint of guilt because even if it was under a mountain of denial, I think he knew. But at this point that's just a prediction.
ReplyDeleteAs for Stannis, to clarify, my main problem isn't that he burned Shireen, it's that the writers tried to make the situation/Stannis more morally complex than it/he ultimately was. I think I would actually be fine with it if book Stannis sacrificed his daughter because that would feel more consistent with who THAT character is. Don't get me wrong, I would hate it, but that hate would be directed at the character, where it belongs, not at the direction the writers decided to take the story and the character.
Like Shae or Cersei, the show spent time adding layers to Stannis that weren't there in the books, only to revert them all back to who they were in the books so they could move the story where it needed to go. While I think they missed a great opportunity to do something fascinating with Cersei after they showed how nuanced she could be in season 1, they at least turned her into a narcissistic and spiteful caricature gradually enough that I could accept it. Shae, not so much, and I'm still upset about that. With Stannis, if they had just dialed back a little, cut the (what was an at the time) amazing scene where he revealed everything he did to save Shireen's life, I might have been able to swallow this. But they didn't, and they punctuated Stannis's rather abrupt fall from grace with one of the most disturbing, deplorable acts anyone can commit. What's more, they wasted the potential the character had to be more interesting than who he is in the books. Before, I would have felt a little conflicted if Stannis had a run in with Brienne or Dany, now those confrontations will be entirely one-sided. This show has enough despicable people vying for the iron throne.
I don't know. Like I said in my last post, people doing bad things in the name of religion just makes me irrationally upset. I think a lot of people generally agree that it's wrong, but for me it's that one issue that I can't even try to see another side to, let alone any shades of grey or any kind of justification, which makes debating things like this difficult for me. I'm not saying my stance is in any way invalid because of this, but I'm also not going to say that you're necessarily wrong. I've cooled down a bit since the episode aired, enough to accept that it's probably just one of those things where I won't see entirely eye to eye with a lot of people, and that's fine. Yes, I am going to watch the season finale. I regret saying otherwise in my earlier post. That was an overreaction that unfortunately lumps me in with all the other rage-quitters. I still think the show took a hit, however. And that opinion's not likely to change.
Right, Jaime would not know the current environment until he got back to KL, but I cannot see him thinking it was ideal for himself or Myrcella to stay. I guess he is still Kingsguard so maybe he will, but why? XD
ReplyDeleteI thought for a while Dorne may be important for the killing of the dragons after the fire vs ice war ends. Afterall they were the only kingdom not conquered by the Targaryens. Then I thought the Citadel may play a role in bringing down the dragons as well.... Then after reading World of Ice and Fire I though that Weirwood arrows may be key to killing dragons... At this point I'm not ruling anything out, but I don't consider any a prime candidate.
And what about "The most dangerous man in Dorne" Gerold Dayne?! XD
On yeah, Darkstar hasn't made the TV series so while he may be the most dangerous man, perhaps he is not the most important XD
Littlefinger and Dorne... Interesting!! XD
I have wondered if the 'warrior' in the casting call could be Dayne? Not 100% sold on the idea, but we do have Spanish filming so he's a character I have considered.
ReplyDeleteI love the idea of Weirwood arrows, that's pretty neat! Probably not very popular with fans who see Dany conquering Westeros, but if she doesn't get off her high horse soon and start learning some damn lessons she ain't got a chance in hell of ruling the 7 Kingdoms :p She's not spent enough time with her dragons in order to do as she's planned either, all Bran needs to do is to warg into them and she's in trouble, lol
As for Littlefinger, his ability to travel around that continent is legendary, if he hasn't managed to fit a secret trip or two to Dorne in at some point over the last 5 seasons he's slipping XD He's also notorious for having a finger in every pie, so it wouldn't surprise me if he has some sort of contingency plan up his sleeve....I just can't work out the how/what it is though as yet.
No I am saying that there is more than one action and that there is more than one viewpoint on any subject given and that viewpoints and actions can change the a viewers perception of the characters and that there actions may not be completely of their choice, because they are destined to do what they do.
ReplyDeleteMy original comment to Darquemode was that I agreed with him, because imo all of the arguments presented in the conversation during the pit scene became true and that it applies to Stannis choice to.
Varys wants a king who serves the people. Jon wants to serve the people. But the Watch doesn't. All they do is just about hating the Wildlings. Jon tried to stop this. As Jon Snow and Lord Commander he can't. As Jon Targaryen and king he will stop it.
ReplyDeleteYou are right - I had forgotten that Melisandre seemed somewhat taken aback and bewildered at what Thoros could do ( seems the god of light doesn't give all his followers equal powers). Thanks for the reminder. They will have to double up on security at the production shoots this Summer and Autumn for next season's episodes as people will be more aggressively trying to glean clues than ever before.
ReplyDeleteI think you are reading way, way too much into the scene.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think you have not been reading between the lines or connecting them together to see the BIGGER narrative of the season that are represented by by the accumulation of conversations and events.
ReplyDeleteAll of the characters actions leads them to every event, but those things may still be pre-determined...
And the novel more than show makes a point to connect history to current events more often to make the destiny point and uses as irony, but this episode also did so with Shireeene reading to Davos: The Dance with Dragons, which was threw line in making association (either in parallel or in opposition) with Dany to Byronn Swann and/or foreshadowing upcoming events with her dragons. In addition the truth about The Dance with Dragons as it is written could be "a lie" and not a true telling, according to other facts given by other characters on those events. It parallels the concept that we don't always know what the truth is, like if Stannis' cause to save humanity is just, because we do not know if Melsandri's beliefs or The Lord of Light's beliefs are true and just.... and also Shireene was not told the truth, so that she would initially be a willing participant.
Wow, you really are committed to your fanfiction.
ReplyDelete"Serving the people" is just one of the conditions to be a king of Varys's choosing. There are several other requirements which Jon does not fulfill.
And hating other groups is way too common in Westeros. Almost all of the North hates the Wildlings as much as the Watch does. Everybody hates the Lannisters and Lannisters hate everybody. And the same goes for the Ironborn. To get everyone to set aside their hate and unite under one banner would be a tough task for even the most charismatic of leaders. Jon couldn't even get the Night's Watch to set aside their hatred for the Wildlings, even though the Watch was well aware of the threat posed by the White-Walkers. Most of the realm doesn't believe in the White-Walkers. Even if they do, their first reaction would be to shore up their own defenses and let someone else fight. them. Even if they decided to send their men to the fight, they'll squabble over who the leader should be - and they certainly won't trust an oathbreaker of dubious birth. How is Jon supposed to manage that when he couldn't even manage a small band of men who actually elected him to his position? Do you think he'd get some magical powers of persuasion if he changes his name?
Reading between the lines is one thing. Reading so much into it that you connect it to every other event happening a world away is quite another. While some parallels may be meaningful, most of what you say here seems apophenic.
ReplyDeleteIMO it is not, because of the type of story that is; an Epic Fantasy that spans it's story across time and space. If the story wouldn't have metaphysics and magic (forces of nature) and uses things like animals, religion, elements, seasons, and songs (stories passed down through generations to make points about truth and legacy), and massive families, then I would agree with you, but since it is not, KARMA is a bigger factor. It implies that everything is interconnected, because that is what the definition of having a metaphysics FATE-orientated universe means. And that is why the writing is so beautiful and ingenious, because of the capacity to make those connections.
ReplyDeleteSorry, I just don't see that.
ReplyDelete""Greensight is the ability to have prophetic dreams called green dreams. A person with greensight sometimes dreams as other people, but the green dreams are different, filled with symbolic meaning, images, and metaphors of what is to come. The meaning behind the dreams is not always obvious, but once you have experienced one, you will see the fulfillment of your visions in the unfolding of the events around you.
ReplyDeleteSome of the children of the forest reputedly had greensight. Their wise men were called greenseers. Some crannogmen who keep many of the old ways are also known to have greensight. One of them is Jojen Reed, who has unnaturally green eyes. It is possible that this is the result of his advanced greensight abilities.[1]
Supposedly these dreams can concern the dreamer or another person, but the dreamer will be able to tell the difference. Greenseers might also dream of his/her own death...."
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Greensight
So right here, we know that prophecy can be a true idea in The Song of Fire and Ice, so therefor suggest a predetermined universe in order to be able to even have insight into anything to come, and I would argue that the Children of The Forest may be the most honest and unassuming havinge there magic be of purist or goosest sense, as I feel that what happened to them is a metaphor for "man destroying nature" and man destroying itself through the corruption of that nature...
Now there is also the LORD of Light consider. Melisandre, like other red priest/or priestress can also see the future in the flames. Stannis believes her, because again what he sees comes to pass when he follows her instructions.
To bring back the dead like Throros of Myr also points out an ability to retrieve their spirit from "somewhere" other than the corporeal reality they exist in. The White Walkers to are also called 'Others" to point out they are something "other than human", implying again a force of nature, one that attacked humanity before (repeated history), to make that they are a force that goes beyond human....
"When she works magic, the ruby setting glows with power.[3] It can burn her if the magic worked is particularly demanding. It is possible that the birth ofDaenerys Targaryen's dragons has increased her powers....
Melisandre is a mysterious woman who trusts completely in the power of her god and the visions he grants her in the flames.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Melisandre
Moqorro is a red priest of the R'hllor faith who is sent by High Priest Benerro to offer guidance and help toDaenerys Targaryen.
Like Melisandre, Moqorro can see the future in the flames, though his predictions are more accurate. He joins the crew of the ship Selaesori Qhoran heading to Qarth
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Moqorro
Note: Quarth is where the House of the Undying is....(irony, coincidence. I think not)
"He who seeks audience with the Undying Ones must follow the rules. Before entering, a person seeking audience with the Undying must drink shade of the evening, so that they may "hear and see the truths" that will be laid before them."
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_of_the_Undying
Now looking at The House of The Undying, Dany (whose experience with it in the TV series is rather different than the novels) may have had a similar experience, in which her extrapolations may show wish fulfillment and regret by trying to keep her there, but also either a vision of the past or a vision of the future... If we see Dany come to kings landing in a the thrown room, with either snow or ash, like the vision suggests, then again it proves we are in a predetermined universe, because she has already foreseen it.
Now I will say that not all that have magic, can't deceive or have alternative motives, but it does not deny the ideas of destiny presented in order for us to consider the possibility of them...
I think you are confusing fate and/or destiny with predermination. Also, even if there is a fate or destiny laid out for certain specific people or characters, it doesn't mean that everything they do or say is connected to it.
ReplyDeleteThe idea of Destiny literally is about the idea of coming to a specific destination, meaning you by divine interventions are "suppose" to come there. Fate may be more ambiguous in it's definition because it doesn't necessarily imply anywhere to come to and could be more about looking at things in hindsight, but I think it's obvious since I have been talking about metaphysics the whole time that I am talking about cycle cosmology and destiny as in predetermination.
ReplyDeleteTitle seems confusing as they explain in the episode that A Dance of Dragons is a battle between dragons, and yet Drogon is the only dragon fighting and Danaery is the only Targeryan fighting so the title seems misleading at this point. Also seems that the director wanted to play a lot with matches as he burns a horse straight off and then a little girl and then a group of Harpies. On the plus side Dany is now a widow. On the down side two of her babies are still locked up and no one dares to release them to see where they go. Meanwhile Jon looks to be on his way to Winterfeld to get all the men he can have for the wall and hopefully one woman who is still looking for a signal to come kill Ramsay. Oh and unless I am missing something Arya looking to have sex so she can kill Mace Tyrell whose man likes them young. THat should really anger the audience who does not understand Maissee is 18, not 14 or 15, and as such can be put into adult situations, so to lock her in at this point in her career good to like Sansa tough up her character and expand her range of emotions. Already seeing Sansa turning hard and less likely to listen to others going forward. Expecting if Arya wants her list cleared she will have to be willing to make sacrifices to poison and kill her enemies. After all the hound is not around to protect her virginity and the no named people have little or no morals as they kill all the time. BTW, with Dany most likely in Valerya it is likely the boys will kill all the rich and feed them to her hungry children to keep them calm. Shireen died like a champion screaming to terrify the viewers one and all. Vintage Hitchcock as you see nothing but imagine everything, unlike Sansa's wedding night which paled in comparison with her being attacked attacked when she was 14 in Kings Landing. Screaming if you do not see anything can be alarming, very effective.
ReplyDeleteIt does in this case, because all the characters that can see the future do not see the same things or do not see bits of future at the same time (timing is then everything, because it is how destiny occurs), so they are seeing different pieces of said future, implying the possibility that all of their pieces exist and are true, then there is little room for variation. It implies the concept of a puzzle where everyone plays a role, because everyone has a piece of the puzzle in order to make the puzzle come true.
ReplyDeleteWe have very little proof of a course to begin with. Visions of the future may simply be a form of magic - simply showing the possibilities and where things are currently headed. As in the books, that's just one reason to be wary of visions and prophecies. And I'm not just talking about misinterpretation. Secondly, while some connections may be meaningful, your presumptions here seems to be that ALL connections are meaningful - which seems downright ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteOk. Look you don't like or believe in some of the connections I see, that's fine you don't have to, but I didn't engage in a conversation with you about, you engaged in a conversation with me about it.
ReplyDeleteSome of the visions have ALREADY come true, so there is some proof of a true prophecy., but we also have to ask, why is any of this happening and be curious about where magic comes from. IMO like I said above the Greeseers in particular I think are NOT lying or intentionally misleading others in there prophetic visions--we again don't know where or why visions occur, only that story is using them to make CONNECTIONS from past to future pointing out BIGGER connections between those things.
To me most of the connections are meaningful to me, because I can see them, and I understand the construct behind literary theory and what certain kinds of genres bring with them. But the point of my conversation was never originally about this, but the possibility that all of their choices are moot, because there is some kind of metaphysics/cycle cosmology, and metaphysics/CC tends to suggest the idea of karma and connections more than it does not.
Please stop engaging me this conversation. I get. You don't believe in this. And that is fine, but then you don't need to argue with me about it. You can just go back to enjoying GOT through your lens and I will enjoy it through mine!
My point is that even if your cycle cosmology or karmic theory is correct, it still wouldn't put them all in the same boat and it still wouldn't render all their choices moot because not all of their actions or choices are karmically significant. Attaching metaphysical significance to each and everything they say of do seems pretty nonsensical.
ReplyDeleteThe North admires the Starks and the South admires the Targaryens.
ReplyDeleteThere will be evidence for Jon being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. (While there was never evidence for Joffrey or Tommen being a Baratheon)
And evene if you neglect it thousand times: There are possibilities for Jon to be released from his oath. He can't serve a Watch which won't even exist.
But it doesn't matter because you cant prove which ONES are more important than others and/or have no karmatic quality.
ReplyDeleteInterview just out with Liam Cunningham in which he says Davos did not know.
ReplyDeleteNot according to Liam Cunningham.
ReplyDeleteOh, ok. Then I totally apologize. Just seems strange it was written that way.
ReplyDelete