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Supernatural – Season 10 Episode 23 – The Gripe Review

May 24, 2015

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Hello and welcome to the season 10 finale Gripe Review.

After watching this last episode of the season I could say with confidence I know what went wrong with the show. It’s Carver, a weak show runner and an even weaker writer.

Carver’s weakness in writing is different from the shortcomings of other bad writers in his team. Where Glass and Thompson put self-indulgence before story, and Buckner and Leming trample all over canon to fit their plot, Carver is lazy. He tells the same story every time.

Back when I was in grade seven I had a classmate who handed the same essay for every topic she got. She changed some parts, and reordered some paragraphs, but the gist of the essay and its structure were the same. Naturally she didn't get high marks for any of her submissions but she wasn’t bothered by it as the only thing she cared about was to pass. Once I asked her why she didn’t write an original essay for each and she said because that one essay contained all of her ideas and literary competencies and that beyond that she had nothing to offer. She didn’t realize that it was still laziness because it proved she had no drive to expand and nourish her creative resources to write something new. She was content with underperforming as long as it earned her an ok grade.


The same could be said about Carver, throughout the season and in this episode in particular. He seems to stick to a finite set of ideas which he just spins as something else, like a fast-food joint selling the same burger as different menu items by changing the order of the ingredients.

Here are some of those ingredients: Dean asking Death to permanently kill him was a rehash of Sam doing the same thing in the season 9 premier, only this time with real Death instead of an imaginary one. Sam showing Dean his childhood pictures to snap him out of his killer mode was Swan Song and a toy soldier in the Impala. And let’s not forget how, before humanity existed, God and his Archangels fought the Darkness out of the world and put a lock on it in the form of the Mark of Cain. Then, I presume, they moved on and fought the Leviathans, driving them into Purgatory and placing a lock on that door. Both were unleashed by Castiel and Crowley through a ritual that ended badly.

Let’s move on to the gripes. And since I’m on a roll here, let’s start them with a mother-of-all-gripes that shows further how Carver plagiarizes his own show, by putting Brother's Keeper next to another finale and observing the similarities. See if you can guess which one it is.

Gripe #1 - Old finale repainted and resold


A spell needs three ingredients in order to be cast. Castiel is put in charge of providing these ingredients to perform the spell. Crowley gets involved, albeit grudgingly. Sam and Dean meet in a secluded place and we find out that Sam's life is at stake. The brothers, alone and together, have to deal with the harsh reality that in order to achieve the season's goal Sam needs to die. An emotional conversation follows which ends in them choosing each other and not doing what’s best for the world. Elsewhere evil hits Castiel with a curse, and a terrifying disaster of global proportion is unleashed on earth. The brothers walk outside just in time to witness the fallout and the season ends with them looking in fear at the calamity taking over their world.

Did I just describe the season 10 finale, or season 8’s? You choose; it doesn’t make a difference. Both are the same, and were written by Carver, who like my high school classmate is redressing and reselling his old script. They even feature a similar, extremely forced, long dramatic scene between the brothers that made as little sense to me then as it did now.

Gripe #2 - Forced drama between the brothers


It’s hard to deny its similarity between the church scene in season 8 and the bar scene in this episode. The level of eye-roll and confused frustration they induced in me were also the same. I used to be a fan of emotional moments between Sam and Dean, be it their conversation near the Impala at the end of season 2 or their swan song moment at the end of season 5. When it is done right and I could make sense of it I appreciate it a lot.

This one neither made sense nor was done right. No matter how much Sam pleaded with Dean, and how much Dean reasoned with Sam - about how his death was the only thing that would save the world from Darkness - I couldn't see past the myriad of plot holes that littered the way to the emotional payoff. For me it was much ado about nothing.


Was I the only one who thought the reason they offered for why Sam had to die was absolutely absurd? He had to die so he wouldn't try to save Dean? How about you throw a dog in his path while he's driving the Impala, then have a bushy haired veterinarian fix the pooch and watch Sam fall in love with her instantly. Problem solved.

Joking aside, this is Death we're talking about. Am I to think it's impossible for him to send Dean somewhere Sam can't reach? Or that he is incapable of stopping Sam, of killing him, if he dared to try something? And what was the idea behind him handing the scythe to Dean? Even if he did it to amuse himself why wouldn't he simply snap his fingers and kill Sam when it was clear Dean was hesitating? Was he entertained by that long, nonsensical back and forth between the brothers? I lost interest the moment I saw Dean willing to end Sam's life, the same piece of canon violation and character defamation that happened last episode. I've blamed many writers for seeming out of touch with the tenets of Supernatural and its characters. I now know the biggest offender is the boss man himself.

Gripe #3 - Flip-flopping Dean


I'm not going to talk about Dean acting like an asshole in the beginning of the episode. Let's don't dwell on my beloved Winchester slut shaming a murder victim and being a dick to her grieving parents. Once again it was Carver's idea most likely to apply this bizarro element to demonstrate how far Dean has fallen, and he who imposed it on the other writers too. I'll save my thoughts on that one for the Dean section of the overall review.

What I will talk about though is my problem with Dean's instant turnarounds this episode, to the point that I felt disoriented about where he stood and what he wanted. It was hard to believe a wise, battle-hardened man like Dean would drop his conviction and change his mind simply because he saw a couple of bloody faces in a mirror, or a Photoshopped picture of his mom. It also confused the plot.

Dean starts the episode fully embracing the mark. He solves a case, which was solely added so he would cause a good guy to die and see it as evidence of his downfall. After that things get funkier still. He calls up Death and asks him to kill him, then he calls Sam and tells him it's he who has to die.


The sudden change of motive is like the narrative flipping over and over. The plot's central question keeps changing, forcing us to change our expectation and wonderment with it, like a person suffering from bipolar disorder. First the narrative question is whether Sam will be able to convince Dean the mark has to be removed, then whether Sam will be able to convince Dean not to die, then whether Sam will be able to convince Dean not to kill him. Before we even have time to deal with one question we’re thrown another, like people in a shipping container loose in a stormy sea.


The notion of ancient Darkness as the true evil, and Dean killing Death for no reason at the end only made it worse, throwing suspicion over whether or not Carver had a concrete plot in mind or was simply trying to tap into the viewers' emotional triggers to cause angst and get Tumblr and Twitter chirping. In order to put the brothers at a fabricated, illogical crossroad, so he could have them once again choose each other over the betterment of the world he made both Dean and Death party to the most convoluted, contrived plot development since Charlie’s death. And the end result wasn’t even satisfactory since, having watched Swan Song and Sacrifice, we could see it from miles coming. The WTF of it all though, was Death dying.

Gripe#4 – Bringing Death to the level of a mere monster

One of the things Carver has done during his time as a showrunner is reducing majestic Supernatural entities to ordinary villains or sidekicks. Angels were the first to fall victim to this, then the reapers (who were also converted to angels,) then God’s scribe, Knights of Hell, King of Hell, and now Death.


I’m not going to explain how ridiculous the idea of Dean killing Death is. Death, who once called him a bacteria sitting at his table, and told him he would one day reap God himself, isn’t immune to his own scythe. He is also dense enough to hand his weapon to the man wearing the mark of Cain.

Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe Death isn’t this omnipotent being who is above everyone else. Maybe he truly is just another Supernatural creature that ranks beneath the bearer of the mark that holds back the ultimate darkness. But what I know is that Death was never scheming or petty. He had no stake in anything that happened on the show unless someone chained him to it. Last time he agreed to Dean’s request it was for his own amusement and because he wanted to show Dean the consequences of his actions.

The Death in the season 9 premier, the one who acted like a Sam fanboy and ended up being a product of his imagination, was disconcerting in his OOCness. This Death, one who monologues and acts as if he is invested in the plot, is even more so. This is Carver using an important mythology character as a plot device to resolve his season long conflict.


Still, even reducing Death to a scheming, meddling character doesn’t explain why Dean would kill him at the end, when he could have simply handed him his scythe and left the place with Sam. If your answer is Death would have stopped them because he wanted Sam dead and Dean shot into space, my question goes back to why? Why would Death care about such things as the fate of the human world? Even if every human died he would simply send his reapers after their souls and go back to sipping pina colada out of a coconut, right? Why risk his own existence (if we truly believe he is gone,) and trust Dean? Why even negotiate with Dean? Why not kill Sam the moment he entered the bar and take Dean away as soon as he turned around to say "what?"

Gripe #5 - No emotional follow up for Castiel

I'm now going to address something that has bothered me since season 6, and happened again this episode, namely the fact that the show never spends any time on the emotional fallout of Castiel's traumatic experiences, and treats him like a dirty dog who sleeps in front of its doorway.


Last week we left Castiel bloody and broken with a blade sticking next to his head, put there by Dean. A pretty traumatic scene. Yet this week, when we came back to the story, no one - including Castiel - seemed to remember it happened, let alone talk about it. We didn’t see Sam’s reaction if he was the one who found him, nor did we see how the incident affected Castiel himself, mentally or emotionally. This in a season where Dark Charlie being beaten by Dean was treated like the biggest woobie moment, with Sam hugging and carrying her bridal style and Dean looking stricken, followed by a full episode tag dedicated to Charlie's emotional recovery and *gag* her forgiving Dean . Castiel however, bounced back like a flying beach ball.

This isn't the first time this has happened to Castiel. Since season 6 he has been everyone’s punching bag and no one’s wounded pet. When he absorbed Lucifer into himself in season 7 and was torn mentally to shreds his suffering was the last thing the writers cared about, or any character bothered addressing, which is why I never bought into the idea of him and Meg being a thing. In season 8 when he had an entire tablet dug out of his gut and the boys found him in the middle of the road the same thing happened. There was such an urgency to rush the plot to the part where Dean blamed him for stealing the tablet that they didn't bother to even show how he recovered from his massive stomach wound. Forget about anyone nursing or comforting him.


It seems like the only time the writers pays attention to Castiel's horrible state is when it serves someone else’s storyline, like when he died at the hands of a reaper in season 9 and it became an excuse to demonstrate Gadreel/Sam’s resurrection powers, or this episode when they needed to flip Dean. In all other cases it's swept under the rug. It's seems to have become the norm on the show that everyone deserves sympathy but him, be it Charlie, Clair, or Rowena's where-the-F-did-he-come-from adoptive son. A damaged Impala even gets more sympathy than a damaged Castiel and she's a prop.


Kudos

The conversation between Sam and Castiel

The only part of the episode I found worthwhile was this in-character conversation between Sam and Cas, which had them at last go head to head about Dean. Sam was his emotional, desperate self, arguing the need to save Dean at all cost. Castiel was the logical one who suggested the sad but necessary option of ending Dean. This was in line with their roles throughout the season and a good culmination of the dilemma each of them struggled with. Castiel of course was the one capitulating in the end because deep down he is as emotionally attached to Dean as Sam, also an in-character aspect of the story.


I wished Carver had maintained this theme instead of flipping Sam into a wet-eyed victim and Castiel into an absent spell cooker. If he had stayed true to the main arc, as his good writers did throughout the season, and Kripke did when he was in charge, we would have had a much better finale, with more defined characters and a richer emotional payoff. As I said at the beginning though, he is the worst writer in his staff and the reason the show generates more gripes than praise week after week. I wished he would find a better job and leave Supernatural in more capable hands such as Dabb's or Berens'. But wishes are fishes as they say.

Next week I will post an overall review of the season in which I’ll talk about characters and plot and the things I found right and wrong about season 10. Until then please voice your thoughts on the finale in the comment section below and let me know if there’s anything you like me to touch upon in the season overall review. If enough people ask for it and if it sparks my interest I might add it to the review.

Tessa

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twitter.com/tessa_marlene 

283 comments:

  1. The Death that came to Sam in season was real, Canon by the way. Not only have the writers and the actors come out and said it but it was mentioned in the episode when Death said Sam had stood him up. The actor who played Death made a speculation that Dean fans jumped on but since the actor has like one scene a season he isnt exactly the authority on the subject. I know him being nice or complimentary of Sam is a big no no for some people but that doesnt mean he wasnt any less real and it doesnt mean that Death was written out of character.

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  2. What do you think about Adam Glass announcing that he's left the show? I'm sort of in two minds. On one hand he wrote Bad Boys this year which had some classic Sam/Dean moments (even if Dean was a kid). On the other hand he wrote paper moon. He was also some kind of writers room supervisor or something. If he was, then I guess I am happy he's gone.

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  3. I think he was an Executive Producer.

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  4. The season ten finale was by far the worst in the series and was damn near painful to watch. I've been a dedicated Supernatural fan for a decade, but this season was so craptastic that I went from viewing live to just whenever I had time. That said, I did watch the finale the night it aired because I was curious how they would close out the clusterfrak of a season.

    Considering what they had to work with (Demon Dean and the Mark of Cain), this season should have been epic. Instead it was full of lazy writing, inconsistencies, plot holes, subpar secondary characters, and uncharacteristic moments that ended in tragedy. The whole Dean issue should have been steadily building all season, not just thrown in our face after the death of Charlie.

    Jeremy Carver has ruined what was once my favorite current TV show. I'd like to know how Kripke feels about what he's done to his show.

    Thanks for this review. I sinceriously couldn't agree more.

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  5. I know him being nice or complimentary of Sam is a big no no for some peopleNo, it's ludicrous and out of character for Death, no offence to Sam fans who jumped on it. Death does not think it's his honor to reap anyone, let alone come personally for them. If what you say is true then that's one more stupid plot twist by the worst writer of the bunch, this one to Sam's detriment.

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  6. A lot of writers get the Executive Producer title after they have been around a while. I'm not clear on what responsibilities go along with the title, or if it just means more money while staying within the pay scales set for writers.

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  7. I pray it's not Buckner & Leming or Robbie Thompson that take over as head writer. I will take Dabb he been on the show the longest and I like his scripts better. In they need a new writer to replace Adam nothing that they have now.

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  8. I have disliked more Adam Glass scripts than I have liked. All Dogs Go to Heaven is one of my most hated episodes and the two Krissy ones have issues for me. Yes About A Boy had some neat interactions with Dean and Sam, but in the end it went to Glass's go to Sam is worthless motif (see also Krissy thanking DEAN when Sam was the one to show up to save her father) by having a 14 year old Dean having to save poor incompetent Sam. I'm not unhappy he's gone.

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  9. Thank you. The one thing we got out of this out of character finale is that Death did indeed show up to reap Sam personally.

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  10. I enjoyed ADGTH and AAB, but I hated everything about BB. His depiction of Sam in BB and at the end of AAB was downright insulting!

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  11. Well he did say in S9 E1 he consider it a Honor to collect the likes of Sam Winchester. I personally think Since Sam and Dean mess is such on a global scale he had a weird respect for them. He let them go again in S6 in told them to keep digging. Kinda like you do something for me and I will do something for you type of relationship.

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  12. Death definitely told Sam Sam had stood him up in S9 so I guess Death really did come to reap Sam.



    The idea of him doing that never bothered me though. Death has a personal relationship w/the Winchesters that I don't believe he has had w/anyone else on the planet so I could see him coming to personally reap them - Sam or Dean. Why not?

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  13. That's how I see it too. I doubt Death has gotten to know anyone else who lived on Earth as he has come to know Sam and Dean. It never seemed odd to me that he would come to reap either of them.

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  14. Yeah they always kept crossing paths.

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  15. im wondering if maybe this death was perhaps the mark? trying to get dean to kill sam like cain killed able? another manifestation of the battle inside dean. i really did like the story of why and how the mark came to be and than corrupted Lucifer, alot better than just Lucifer was a favorite that got jealous of the new baby, (humans). as for the comparison to swan song and season 8,i saw it, and while season 10 certainly was interesting, i did, over all like it. i do hope that they use all the loose ends they left while filming and writing season 11.

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  16. i honestly thought that instead of destroying the Moc, rowena was doing a spell to transfer it to her. it kinda surprised me to not see that. as for death being metatron, he's human now. so i dont thing he could have done that. and he left with the demon tablet didn't he? when cas got his grace? so while he could have done a spell, i don't think that was who it was.

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  17. But the Dean/MoC had been building up for the season. Maybe a bit to subtly for most, but it was boiling under the surface before he went on his first massacre, and was still there afterwards.

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  18. At this point none of them pay attention to canon, so im just going for someone who can give me a decent episode. Buckner/Ross-Lemming have some of the most snail pacing episodes I ever seen, and Robbie is living in dream land. So that's why I didn't pick them. Personally I would pick neither on this whole staff, but I know someone on it will be it.

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  19. I keep seeing a lot of the "Winchesters choose other and destroy the world again/toxic codependency" stuff a lot, like claiming it happens every season, when the fact is it's never happened. Season 1 Sam doesn't kill John and Azazel escapes, season 2 Dean sells his soul to resurrect Sam and demons are released, which had nothing to do with either brothers choices, season 3 Dean goes to Hell, season 4 Sam doesn't choose Dean and inadvertently releases Lucifer, season 5 Sam sacrifices himself. Season 6 Cas betrays everyone, season 7 Cas and Dean end up in Purgatory, season 8 angels fall because of Cas and Metatron, season 9 Dean dies and becomes a demon.

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  20. The level of attention/retconning that goes on on the show is really no better or worse than when Kripke ran things. He disregarded/retconned plenty of stuff in his tenure.

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  21. Oh it has gotten worst since they have been re writing past things on the show to fit what they are doing now. But at this point I don't care I just wan't decent episodes next year. In what they left off on it can be interesting if they explore it.

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  22. What happened to the first blade? That was supposed to be a big thing that was linked to the mark right? How does that fit in with the mark of Cain being a lock for the darkness? Anyway, I agreed with every single word of your review this week! We will have these reviews next year right?! I mean, hopefully the show will be coherent and good enough again that there are no gripes, but unfortunately I'm not deluded enough to believe that that will happen.

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  23. Every time Sam gets all "we have to save Dean" I do a lot of eye-rolling and ask him where were you when Dean was in Purgatory? I will never be able to get past that "hit dog, met girl" GAG.

    My favorite ep is Swan Song, but this one gave me nothing.

    Super review that hit most of my gripes. Some that were not in this ep, but still bug me.
    Someone with a gag on and hands tied in front of them..Why don't they reach up and pull the gag down.
    Someone with a plastic bag over their head and instead of punching a hold where you mouth is they reach back and try to hit the bad guy.

    Carver could do the show a favor and LEAVE. ;)

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  24. The apocalypse storyline only happened because Dean sold his soul to bring back Sam (which meant that the very first seal could be broken). Although in season 8 they didn't destroy the world, they had the chance to close the gates of hell and pretty much save millions of lives, perhaps billions in the long run.

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  25. I haven't seen one fan who wants carver to stay (I'm sure they exist however). I just want my favourite show to live up to its potential. We've been watching this show for 10 years, we deserve it! Hell J2 definitely deserve it! They've been more vocal than ever about how they've disagreed with the writing this year. Was it last week that Jensen said he flat up went to Bob Singer and said that killing Charlie was just plain "Bullshit".

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  26. I think for this episode I would of took out the whole first half in re wrote it.
    Dean would not be working a case he would be on a rampage. I felt he was to tame for a finale. he was more lose at the end of episode 22. Now the second half I had no problem with it, but some of the scenes felt forced. I still will give it a B-. But they should of gave it more of a punch.


    In I know Rowena will be back but I will diffidently limit her scenes and her episodes next year.

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  27. It was way too subtle. We didn't see Dean's torment once he gave the First Blade to Cas, we were only told through conversations between Sam and Cas that there was a problem. Then Charlie died and bam! Dean goes off the deep end. Too little too late in my opinion.

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  28. I sure disagree with Jensen on this one, killing Charlie was the best thing that happened this year. She always had to show up the guys and usually ended up having to save one of them. I am very glad she is gone and hope to NEVER see her again. ;)

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  29. Dean gave the First Blade to Cas and then it was never mentioned again. Add it to the list of many things that are important at one point and then no longer acknowledged.

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  30. I walked around my house laughing HYSTERICALLY after that finale. I mean yes, I was drunk, but also it really just was that ridiculous.

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  31. While I didn't hate the season finale I do more or less agree with everything said. Sad to see Rowena is still alive. Killing Death? Please let this be a trick because that wasn't even a compelling death scene for a low level monster. Sure that isn't it for Death? A toss away monster of the week if that.


    The Darkness while it could be cool to see next season sounds like a plot that they simply wrote the last very moment.


    My problem with Carver and co is that he lied. He never had a three year plan and he doesn't know what episode 2 will bring let alone three seasons from now. There is a feeling of "no effort" in the writers room in terms of long term story arcs. You can easily tell they don't know where the story is going episode to episode which is why most stories fizzle out completely.


    I'll keep watching the show as it's still a fun romp but it use to be one of the best shows ever and now it's just a fun romp.


    I also found Dean completely out of character when he wanted to not only kill himself but to kill Sam. That was a big WTF scene for me. Like he didn't even try to think of another idea. It's just "Oh I got to kill my brother" which Dean would NEVER consider doing ever.


    Men of Letters and other great ideas are completely thrown away, good characters killed so easily in favor of stories that were whipped up during a 5 minute coffee session somewhere.


    Even Saturday morning cartoons have better story plotting then this. Carver and Co. need to go but alas that likely will not happen. Hopefully with Adam Glass gone, we will get at least one new writer who has compassion for writing. Adam Glass has written a few good episodes but also his share of bad ones.



    Season 10 was at least a step up from season 9 but not by much. I found myself enjoying the MOTW episodes more then the season long plot. I also didn't like that it took a season and a half to deal with the Mark of Cain when it should have been maybe half a season or no more then a season. 23 episodes to stretch out a 6-episode plot max.


    I hope The Darkness is new and fresh and isn't just re-skinned Demons or Leviathon acting creatures inhabiting bodies and doing evil things.


    The show desperately needs a completely new storyline, there are SO MANY good ideas out there ripe for picking. I don't want another season of the same old plotlines used over and over again. This is extremely lazy and clearly the fans are beginning to think so with the show's low ratings this season. Give us something more compelling please! Make the Darkness something that feels actually fresh! Bring Death back as well because I don't accept such an easy demise for such a powerful being. Stupid!

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  32. I rate this as the worst finale ever. As a dedicated Dean girl, killing Death is the dumbest thing he has ever done. I hope it's a ruse.

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  33. Witches have the power of illusion (ie Crowley and the 12yo in The Executioner's Song) thru demons (not Rowena, but I am just doing a "possible" thing here, and Metatron now has the power of Demon Tablet. ALSO, I "think" (jmo) that Hannah and the Angels would've sent angels to retrieve Metatron because he is a direct danger to them. It was shown how easy it was for one angel to steal another's grace. (PS MY OPINION again, Metatron is going to be a bitch to catch again.)

    I "know" this is supposition on my part. All of it. But Death did not appear to be "deathish" to me. The dialogue all of it seemed off. For example: Death could erase Sam's memories of Dean (it's been done for other characters); Death could have sent Dean to Purgatory where he would have huge numbers of monsters to kill forever (it's been done before -- and Dean LIKED Purgatory).

    And to go back to your original point: why did Rowena actually do the spell? As we saw almost immediately, she overpowered both Castiel AND Crowley like THAT. Was she keeping her deal? She walked out with the BotD. Why "heal" or whatever Dean? It makes sense that she might've transferred the Mark to herself, I hadn't thought of that. BUT then "the darkness" blew out so she hadn't taken the Mark herself.

    LOTS to be chewed over for plotting next season.

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  34. Ross, I agree with you but these are unintended consequences. HERE we have Sam constantly saying, I don't care, we'll figure it out.

    And I don't KNOW if closing the Gates of Hell really was a good idea. I mean it SOUNDED like a good idea, but what did it mean? Castiel thought Closing Heaven meant closing heaven's gates but in practice it was kicking the angels out of heaven and de-powering them in many ways.

    I was talking to a friend about Dean's deal from Season 2; this is a horrible thing, but if my child died in an accident, I might be tempted to sell my soul for my child. Saying Dean had no way of knowing he was The Righteous Man is NOT excusing him. Question: do you think John really held out or was that one of Alastair's mind games.

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  35. I doubt Death is dead, he's probably lost his body but he's eternal. Most likely he'll come back in another form.

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  36. I worry about Jared and Jensen's work schedule. The idea of killing almost every recurrent character is so stupid I hate it. With what happened to Jared recently it is a warning that they cannot continue (I don't know, are all the conventions "mandated" as promotion by the show for publicity or is it by the actors purely for money-making?)

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  37. THAT is a right on to you, hellboy.

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  38. I didn't like Charlie either but I didn't feel she needed to die. She could have stayed in Oz for all I cared, and how she died was just plain stupid! When she came back w/the BoTD, she was hiding in dumpster and karate chopping Stynes left and right. In the episode where she died, she is suddenly looking scared and very vulnerable! What happened to karate chopping, can hold her own Charlie that we saw when Sam "burned" the book? Where did that girl go? Did she even put up a fight? I doubt it. Again, I didn't care about Charlie but I hate lazy writing worst. Haha! Her death was lazy and unnecessary.

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  39. I thought it was depressing but we HAD to see that Dean was no longer "Dean" by this episode. He was fighting how he felt, trying to pretend he was OK. By this episode we saw he was failing/had failed. Depressing to me/hard to watch. But I believe necessary.

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  40. I couldn't agree more w/you, Mel! It was way too little, too late for me. Dean was shown to be perfectly fine until suddenly he wasn't the episode before the finale. There was no build up to his rampage. No obvious, clear reason for Sam's desperation and Cas's worrying. It was all tell instead of show, and that's a big no-no in storytelling, IMO.

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  41. Oh, what a good idea! MY idea had been Metatron just screwing with Dean's head yet again, but your idea works too.

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  42. Was it a drinking game, Violue?

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  43. People love hyperbole. Reapers/angels that was pretty bad, but they seem to ignore that Kripke changed and disregarded the rules plenty.


    Like the beginning of season 4, angels are dying defending seals from demons, jump towards the end and there's a big mystery as to how angels are dying.


    Or that Alastair got the scythe from Death who he said wanted the Apocalypse to happen, cut to the next season Death has been locked away and is ambivalent about the end of the world.


    Deciding that reapers can look however they want to.


    Sam needs to drink gallons of demon blood even though he is supposedly Lucifer's one true vessel.


    Dropping the Sam came back different after Dean sold his soul, and the other generations of Special Children.

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  44. It was lazy storytelling and I agree that the whole tell not show aspect fell flat on so many levels. Once the First Blade was gone Dean seemed to struggle to get back under control briefly but was then fine. It felt like as long as they were separated that he was cool. I couldn't have been more displeased with season ten.

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  45. After "The Executioner's Song" Dean we saw Dean was dealing with nightmares, and then the Werther Box hallucination, and how he went right to violence questioning the guy in "Angel Heart."

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  46. It needed to happen but before the second to last episode. There needed to be more buildup to Dean going off the deep in. It was just too late at that point. Well in my opinion anyway.

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  47. Rowena was restrained in iron shackles, which were hampering her ability to use her natural gift for magic. Once she performed the spell, the shock wave loosened the restraints and freed her.

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  48. John held out. He's a man that went on a 20+ year revenge trip, he held out just to spite Alastair.

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  49. Difference was Sam thought Dean was dead when he was in Purgatory. Here Dean is very much alive, and he is trying to save him from becoming a monster.

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  50. There needed to be something to finally push Dean over the edge, and Charlie was really the only recurring character on the ever shrinking list they have that made logical sense in the narrative.


    Jody, Ghostfacers, Linda, Claire, Garth Becky, Cole, Krissy Chambers, Sheriff Donna; these are really the only Winchester allies left, and none of them would have made much sense in the mytharc as Charlie did.

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  51. The hallucinations were more about Dean coming to terms with the fact it was wrong to expect Sam and/or Cas to end him. He killed Cain when he still had the First Blade.

    Once the First Blade was given to Cas, there was no real buildup of Dean losing his shit until Charlie died. It was just speculation on both Sam and Cas' part.

    I don't want to be told, I want to be shown. Dean minus the First Blade was pretty in control until Charlie's death and it was just too late in the season for him to finally go off the deep end. Clearly, we see things differently.

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  52. Yeah and Kripke lied too, he had a 5 year plan in so much that he wanted to tell the story in 5 seasons, and he originally wanted to do it in 3 seasons. He had a broad idea of where he wanted the story to end, Carver did too and then the show got renewed so it needed to be changed.

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  53. The first three episodes of the season dealt with demon Dean, "Paper Moon" dealt with Dean talking about "crossing the line" and Sam making sure he didn't kill anyone on the hunt. Then Dean went into overkill shooting the shapeshifter in "Ask Jeeves", he lied to Sam about the MoC not affecting him in "Hibbing 911" which led into the massacre in the next episode.

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  54. I am done. This show just put the last nail in my viewer-ship coffin. After last week's intensity and decent plot with a powerful impactful moment and a beautifully crafted finishing scene. This piece of garbage finale shredded anything this show had left. Nothing in this show makes sense anymore in even basic terms, I wouldn't be surprised if I heard that next season Dean evolves the ability to fly and breath under water and it turns out that Sam was adopted and from the fairy world.

    The sheer idea of Rewona being able to control an Angel of the Lord or even the King of Hell let alone both at the same time is absolutely ludicrous. She is a witch who only episodes ago didn't even know Angels existed and now she can control them?? what?? She just attempted to kill Crowley last episode and failed miserably and now we are to believe that somehow she has complete control over his power now.

    I don't understand how Dean's character has contrived these decisions or solutions to these problems he has been faced with. I mean even if he did get somebody he knew killed on purpose how is THAT! the trigger that makes him go "oh maybe I should see if Death can kill me?" the sense of this is absent entirely!

    Then there was Death, I mean what did they do to Death? The character had stolen any scene he was previously, the presence and awe that he conveyed was nearly without equal. The entity that will outlive and reap the all-mighty Creator himself. He has been reduced to a character that has been less thought out than the police detective they introduced in the beginning of the episode. His scene was filled so heavily with contrived pointless actions and conversation that I was left wondering why they even bothered to bring him in the episode at all. Even the explanation of the Mark and the Darkness was so stomach-turning that I wasn't sure if I should of just turned it off or not. God I wish I did so I didn't have to see the scene where they killed the best character the show ever had. Not only killed him but did it in a ridiculously stupid way that I just shook my head and felt empty for the final few minutes while silently screaming in my head "what the fuck just happened?" over and over again.

    I am not even going to bother pointing out the hilarious stupid events leading up to it. I am in a place with the show now where I do not care what happens after they are swallowed by the darkness, I do not care if Crowley dies or Cas dies or even if Sam and Dean dies. The show could be cancelled tomorrow and I would probably be happier knowing that it cannot get worse.

    For a season and an episode that had so much potential after last season's finale and last weeks episode. I am highly disappointed, I have been a complete fan since day one of Super, watched every episode when they aired and was always excited to see where they were going to go with it. Typically I would get imaginative with the plot and try to determine ways I would of handled the strings they left with and make my own versions of the story following the mythology. This is the first time in the entirety of the series where I truly have no thought on where the show should go because I am at the point where I do not care.

    I will read the reviews of next seasons episodes with the hope that the show will get better, and hopefully they can fix it and bring it back from this brink. However if they don't improve in quality or heart I will probably bid adieu to this series and I am truly saddened that this is the last new episode I will probably ever see.

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  55. Rowena is a powerful, and claimed as much, her being able to put the whammy on Crowley and Cas is a good way to show it. Also it's canon that angels can be susceptible to magic/spells. Technically Sam tried to kill Crowley, not Rowena and even though he was able to fight off the hex bag, he was still affected by it.


    Dean was on a downward spiral, and Rudy's death is one of the things that snapped him back. It makes absolute sense for his character.

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  56. I understand he was on a downward spiral but how was it that, that snapped him back and not his almost beating Cas to death or killing a kid in cold blood. I get that it is supposed to make sense but it really doesn't.

    I know that Rowena is supposed to be powerful but it just seemed so out of no where. I mean the book is supposed to be about curses not spells. The whole scene just seemed to be plot for plots sake. Like I said if it was one of them I could understand but both at the same time seems out of place.

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  57. In late Season 1 Dean was talking to Sam about revenge cannot burn HOT forever, that Sam had to pace himself. AND that Sam and John were just alike. I CAN see John holding out; but I am curious to Ross or Hellboy: I thought Alastair had to break The Righteous Man. Was JOHN an earlier version of The Righteous Man? Was John subjected to the same tortures Dean was? Because in AHBL2 John was just wandering around in the queue to get out of Hell, he wasn't restrained at all. At the time I thought he was a regular Hell denizen, the torture was being there. THEN we get Alastair's little speech. So I have always been torn if Alastair DID torture John the way he tortured Dean (and OTHOAP was on this last week, and it was such a masterful job to me that Dean was ALWAYS Alastair's victim, even in the role of torturer DEAN was the weaker).

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  58. Sam also "stood him up" in All Hell Breaks Loose2 and Dark Side of the Moon. He was meant to die many times, and "somehow" he got brought back. I loved both those episodes by the way. I loved Ash saying in DSOTM that they both die "a lot."

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  59. It bugged me no end that Kripke got bored with the Psy-Kids and just wrote 'em out. He introduced the Roadhouse and Jo and Ellen and Ash and then blew up the place and killed Ash. THAT struck me as hubris, if you catch my drift. Sort of an early version of "I am GOD I write them in and out."

    And what you said was what I was referring to. PS IMO Alastair was a lying liar who lies: Death was "bound" by Lucifer, not an avid fan.

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  60. AND Dean's had nightmares for YEARS. But I did like the line that he slept like a drunk baby.

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  61. Do you think she planned it then? This is a good idea I hadn't thought of. Because she did the Canis Curse like THAT and walked out the door. I'll "see" it that way on next rewatch.

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  62. I had another thought: Sam didn't "come back wrong" in AHBL2; Dean had mentioned that Sam (like John) had REVENGE for a major motivator and shooting Jake about 80 times was Sam's REVENGE on Jake, plus that nasty face Sam makes some times.

    Sam spent Season 3 pretty much original flavor Sam, except for his mounting terror of Dean going to Hell. And Jared did that very nicely.

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  63. This season had some really good ideas, and a really good layout. The only problem was that they crammed all those ideas and layout into the final four episodes. So then you have characters you barely know that are killed off, characters they are not too sure what to do with, and series regulars they are trying to maintain a story for. All in all, very sloppy, rushed, and horrible to watch. I think it was on this forum that I remember reading a comment about comparing this season to a college final, or major project. Knowing when the due date is, or in this case the finale, wasting time, and then doing a last minute cram session, realizing that there is a lot more to do but being too late.
    This season would have been a whole lot better if say you got to know the who the Stynes were, or you got to know a little bit more about Oscar and Rowena's relationship. But nope, you get Rowena and Crowley farting around in Hell most of the season! Cas had pretty much no role this season at all! They should have written something a little bit better for him instead of him trying to be a parent, and then babysitting Crowley's mother for the last half!

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  64. Death telling Sam he stood him up doesn't prove the Death in his dream was real, only that he was supposed to die and didn't.


    How am I supposed to believe Death holds Sam in high regards when this episode he was all gung ho to kill him for the possibly that he'd be a nuisance in the future? Is Death flip flopping too? I wouldn't be surprised since both episodes were written by Carver.


    It's not that I believe Sam doesn't deserve praise, it's that Death is the most unlikely candidate to give it.

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  65. I'm shedding no tears. According to him, Bad Boys was riddled with his own childhood references, which he bragged about on Twitter, forgetting Dean has a history of his own and doesn't need to take on his.

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  66. Considering what they had to work with (Demon Dean and the Mark of Cain), this season should have been epic.After the mid-season finale for a while I had the illusion that it would be, with the focus finally shifting from random guest stars to the Mark of Cain. But then they brought in Claire and all things went to Hell.


    Season 8 still holds the honor of worst finale (and worst season) for me.

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  67. BUT we have talked week after week after week that Dean was not showing any "awful" effects from the MoC. HERE we finally saw it.I will talk more in depth about this in the overall review. I don't think that was the way to go for MoC Dean unless they particularly made it part of the canon definition of the mark. For example if they had said one of the effects of the mark was that it reversed the behavior of the bearer, then Dean being the gentle ladies man who put the well being of everyone before him turning into a slut shaming jerk would have made sense. This way I couldn't tell what was wrong with him. Was he too mad and this was his way of showing rage? Or the reversal? Or his true personality escaping the tight leash of social boundaries?

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  68. What happened to the first blade? What happened to the prophecy of Cain that Dean had to leave a trail of bodies that ended with Crowley, Cas and Sam? What happened to Crowley's red eyes from last episode? What happened to the rest of the Stynes who supposedly had members across the world? To Cole? To demon Dean coming back? To Metatron who grabbed the angel tablet and ran away?

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  69. "Sam also "stood him up" in All Hell Breaks Loose2 and Dark Side of the Moon."

    SAM did not stand him up in those two instances.
    SAM did stand him up in s09e01.

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  70. Carver is just phoning it in at this point. I'm getting a feeling he is biding his time for the next gig to come his way and in the meantime turning Supernatural's wheel leisurely to pay his bills. It's no surprise so many writers left during his time. Even they can't stand his low aim to simply get a passing grade.

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  71. "Death telling Sam he stood him up doesn't prove the Death in his dream was real, only that he was supposed to die and didn't."

    It means Sam stood him up.

    "How am I supposed to believe Death holds Sam in high regards"

    Because he stood him up.

    "It's not that I believe Sam doesn't deserve praise, it's that Death is the most unlikely candidate to give it."

    Then we disagree .As for me Death is the most likely candidate..as he has interest in them and he has followed their life.It did not make me surprised in the way he was with Dean and how he praised Sam .

    He is Death So having dean kill Sam does not really mean Sam ceases to exist for Death..but for Dean Sam definitely ceases to exist.

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  72. The sheer idea of Rewona being able to control an Angel of the Lord or even the King of Hell let alone both at the same time is absolutely ludicrous. She is a witch who only episodes ago didn't even know Angels existed and now she can control them?Rowena was the most inconsistent character this year. She kept seesawing between super powerful witch and everyone's doormat this entire season. I was disappointed she didn't die in the finale because it most likely means she'll be back next year.

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  73. I wished it was a cram session as you described. To me it looked more like "jot down whatever comes to your mind right now and hand it in, then come back and finish your joint."


    None of the things you mentioned, like the Stynes or Rowena's magically materialized surrogate son were planned ahead. What was planned ahead however was Cole's revenge for Dean killing his dad, Rowena trying to get back at the witched who exiled her from their coven, Castiel and Hannah trying to bring order to Heaven by hunting down rogue angels, and the first blade being the ultimate weapon for the bearer of the Mark of Cain.


    All these ideas were abandoned in favor of a spell that would remove the mark and unleash the rabbit-out-of-the-hat menace called Darkness. It's like when your parents lie to you about getting you ice cream, then once you realize you've walked the farthest away from the ice cream truck they point somewhere and yell, "Look, a bird!" to distract you and make you forget.

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  74. They kinda touched on it in season 3 when Sam killed the demon Dean sorta bonded with, but it was pretty much dropped after that.

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  75. I think she planned on paying Sam back for keeping her prisoner, I don't think she planned at that moment to be set free.

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  76. Or Kripke decided to retcon it, because he wasn't even thinking about season 5 and the Horseman by that point.

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  77. John was meant to be the righteous man, he gave up his soul to save his son's life, but like what was mentioned he held out until he was able to escape. Then when Dean sold his soul for Sam, he became the righteous man.

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  78. The Book of the Damned has the power to create and undo any curse, that's the whole point of its existence. And what is a curse, if not a spell.

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  79. Catherine DubyanskyMay 25, 2015 at 11:52 AM

    Carver is Great Evil of 10th season. This writing doesn't deserve such resplendent acting as J's have showed.

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  80. Seeing as how Cain is not a psychic, his telling Dean he's going to kill people wasn't a prophecy. He was telling Dean the most likely outcome of having the mark.

    Cas got rid of the First Blade, Crowley 's eyes are irrelevant, the Srynes are still out there, Cole is with his family.

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  81. The First Blade became irrelevant the moment he gave it to Cas to dispose of. If it suddenly came back, people would be complaining about how dumb it is and bad writing to give Dean the First Blade again.

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  82. A whopping three writers, one which left because he split with his writing partner. That's quite the mass exodus.

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  83. Tessa, you hit on exactly what is wrong under Carver. He and the writers aren't telling stories -- they are jotting down "ideas" and calling them both scripts and a story. They aren't, and the reason they aren't is because not a one of these 'ideas' are developed with any logic, background, or understanding of human motivation over the season. I've said this before -- but under his leadership, the foundational premises of the show and hunting in general have been trashed. S10 made it clear to me that now even the Winchester characters have been trashed, too. I didn't see that before this season, but it is clear to me now that there is absolutely no understanding of the two characters.

    As for this episode, the moral of the MoC story is that you have to be a monster to save humanity and, if that is the case, I question whether humanity worth saving? That is a pretty sad premise to base a season (or a story on), isn't it?

    The worst of it, though, was to leave the bad taste that the Winchesters are not "heroes" at all. Carver placed Dean in a situation where he supposedly could not control the Mark and he knew the consequences of what not controlling it would be. Dean controlled it throughout the season up until the finale, where he suddenly didn't. That situation left Dean looking like he was NOT as strong as Cain and NOT ever bit as strong-willed as Cain; a complete contradiction of Dean’s character. As far as Sam was concerned, he looked unhinged and willing to blow up the world to get what he wanted, which was to save Dean, and the closing "cliffhanger" proved that. The only explanation for doing this kind of damage to lead characters is a total lack of interest or caring.

    I confess to losing complete interest in Sam and Dean's 'Sacrifice' speech there at the end. I couldn't follow what was being said, it made no sense to me whatsoever, and I zone out -- meaning that Carver's cheap 'the brothers chose each other' emotional impact was lost on me. In fact, I felt no tension, no emotions, no nothing throughout the episode. All I can say about the episode is 'that happened' and it is a relief the season is over. I am tired of the disappointment.

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  84. Have to agree with that. People are so keen to fight when the time comes, Sam accepted the natural order and that is rare. Add to that, his considerable sacrifices through the season, especially at the end of season 5 are worthy reason why Death should be honoured to reap Sam.

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  85. Maybe he wanted, or needed, to kill him because he knows full well what Sam is capable of doing. He did confirm that in this episode.


    Death is a reaper. It's not as if he'd believe death is something to be scoffed at or little though of.

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  86. Sam believed Dean was dead when Dean was in Purgatory.

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  87. Rowena was the most inconsistent. She started off cartoonish and looked quite unable to control the magic she possessed, to captive prisoner, to some powerful witch.


    My problem with this episode was that Crowley supposedly got his mojo back last episode, then he agrees to get the ingredients for the spell out of revenge -- not to kill Rowena, but to hurt her feelings by killing the person she loved, which means he was still moping because mommy didn't love him enough. And what happens, Rowena wins all the marbles over everyone. Once again, the guest star shines while the leads look stupid and incompetent.

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  88. There was absolutely no payoff for the season in the finale. Nothing was resolved and there was zero character growth for any of the characters.

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  89. Agreed! I mean what was the point of the Stynes? They were vaguely interesting in the beginning (before the Frankenstein reveal), but then they were all killed off in ONE episode. For what!?!? So, Charlie could die, and Dean could go on his rampage?!?!? They couldn't have Dean go on a rampage in general?!?! This season has been awful and a complete waste of time!

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  90. I think Carver decided to go with the Cain/Abel story and it looked like the outcome was that Dean did not kill Sam. Again, nothing developed so it feel flat. You can't write a story when you start the season having no idea what the story you are trying to tell, and what ends up happening is just a bunch of "ideas," as you said, Tessa, and none of those "ideas" get developed in any way. It is not storytelling at all, and does look like something a poor attempt by a mediocre middle schooler.

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  91. I didn't care for last week's episode, but I agree w/your thoughts on the season and the finale. Both were extremely weak and made me lose almost all interest in the show. I honestly don't see myself watching next season unless I read overwhelmingly positive reviews of the first few episodes.

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  92. I see what you mean. I meant that in those other circumstances Sam didn't "stay dead." In all the shows that somebody dies and comes back, I always wonder where they went. In AHBL1 I personally thought Sam went to Heaven; in DSotM we "know" he went to Heaven. The Reaper mythology on this show confuses me in that I felt Sam left right away in DSotM but in AHBL1 he hadn't left yet.

    I think Sam in ITIAGTLIH (Christ Jesus on a STICK that was a long title) was comatose and deciding to "let go" like Dean was in IMToD. But I don't know. In this case anybody's opinion is a-ok by me. I can go with practically any theory.

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  93. The key word is "thought", he did not have a body. There were other times in the show when Dean disappeared, but Sam looked for him and with Jody's help got him back. The story this time was Sam DID NOT LOOK. The Sam we have known and loved WOULD HAVE LOOKED. I put this at Carver's feet and it has tainted my favorite TV show.

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  94. That has always been my problem w/the MOC story. The writers weren't willing to take Dean too far w/it, which ended up hindering the actual story, IMO. Some say the story was subtle, but I say it was non-existent. I honestly never saw Dean behaving much differently than normal, and that only made Sam and Cas seem extreme in their worry. We never even got to see Dean resisting an urge to kill Sam or Car or anyone. He was fine until Charlie died. That's NOT the way to tell a story, IMO.

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  95. But Sam didn't KNOW Dean bonded with Casey. I personally think she would've been a better "source" of info than lying liar Ruby. She actually gave them Azazel's name, what the plan was (that she knew about) and didn't look to be creating mayhem, just to exist on earth.



    He also got REALLY weird in Mystery Spot. In both episodes Sam was in Save-Dean-at-all-costs mode and that translated into acting like a psycho at times. Sam came back "right" after AHBL2.

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  96. Well, Carver wrote what he wrote. Jared has already said several times that he thought Sam would look for Dean, and that he didn't like the S8 story. I didn't care for it either, but I refuse to hold Carver's crappy OOC writing against Sam. Carver has shown he understands nothing about the show or the characters. He was clearly guided by Kripke when he wrote MS.

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  97. I disagree. They should have shown Dean slowly going over the edge all season. He didn't need the death of a character to go over that edge. If the story had been paced properly, the whole season could have been building to his ultimate "rampage."

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  98. Exactly! Dean's always had nightmares. Why couldn't they pull a Paranormal Activity moment and show Dean standing over a sleeping Sam w/a knife or a gun, fighting an urge to kill him. That would have been something than the nothing we got in terms of this crappy story. Show Dean snapping at Sam more, getting more irritated w/Sam's very presence . . . . that would show the Mark's effects.

    All we got was Dean going insane b/c his precious Charlie died.Ugh . . . pardon me while I vomit!

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  99. OH I see, selling your soul for another CREATED "the Righteous Man;" I can get behind that idea.

    And I agree Kripke (for all his "five seasons arc" talk) changed his plans again and again so making "novelistic" (what a word, just thought it up) sense of the thrust of the five-year arc is pretty impossible. I would have loved to see or at least KNOW what Kripke's plan for season 3 (Sam saves Dean) would have been like. I really come up blank with HOW Kripke would've done it. Supernatural NEVER having Angels? I can't imagine.

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  100. That's why I was so depressed: Dean wasn't Dean, I don't agree "good old Dean" disappeared around Seasons 6/7. I thought he was there on and off (due to various plots sometimes he was not as much FUN as earlier recipe Dean); I never felt that guy was gone. It's just after Bobby died he got sort of congealed around other people (except for Charlie), afraid to be responsible for anybody else dying (except for Charlie, I think she broke his walls down).

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  101. If someone in your family went missing and no body found, would you say OH WELL THEY MUST BE DEAD? Would you look?

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  102. Considering Jensen said that Jared was depressed by Sam's arc this season, I feel badly for both of them if they can't get behind the thrust of the story for them. Hard to act if you can't feel it (at least I think so).

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  103. The DD story sucked. DD was basically Dean at a 10. Big whoop. Plus, the story was cut too short. The only part of that story I liked was when DD fought Cole. That was a good scene. DD should have been more like that but w/the time constraint they put on the arc, they may as well not even have done it, IMO. DD should have gone a full half-season.



    I can't even remember PM. All I know is Kate returned (who cared about her), and she screwed over her parents in the worst way by taking away both their daughters. Her poor parents must be besides themselves as BOTH their daughters disappeared w/o a trace. I don't remember Dean (or Sam) doing much of anything in that episode. AJ . . . . I don't recall Dean overshooting anyone. Whatever Dean did did not have an impact on me. I remember the kill in FB, him beating the hood of the Impala, him beating down SS, but AJ draws a blank, which says - to me - that I didn't think whatever he did was a big deal. It must have seem pretty standard and normal to me b/c it's not a scene I can recall. What did he do in H911? I vaguely remember Jodi and her sheriff buddy, but I don't recall Dean or Sam doing anything in that episode



    Simply put, this MOC story was far too subtle (and boring) for my taste. I would have preferred (and enjoyed) a much more straight, obvious story. The way Metatron and Cain described Dean was far more interesting than the Dean we actually got, which is sad.



    If the story worked for you, that's cool. It did not work on any level for me.

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  104. Sadly, I can't even remember that struggle he briefly had. As I was telling Hellboy, those scenes must not have been too significant for me b/c I can't recall them.

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  105. YES. YES. YES. I am sure when I do a full-season rewatch I will see all the subtle stuff Jensen did but as it was seeing week-to-week I noticed stuff but I believe I probably missed most of Jensen's little touches.

    I kept thinking Sam, "knowing" about Dean's terminal diagnosis, was "seeing" a cough as pneumonia. When I go back I probably WILL see the pneumonia under control by holistic means, not antibiotics (I get pneumonia a lot, I hope my analogy works for others).

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  106. None of what you listed are canon violations. Tessa told Dean she was appearing in a guise that wouldn't frighten him. Maybe the reaper in S1 didn't care what the ppl he reaped saw, esp. since he had been bound and was reaping at that woman' will.



    They established that both Nick and Sam had to drink DB to hold Lucifer. What is the violation?



    Maybe Alastair lied? There was a lot of lying from both the angels and demons in S4.



    Well, S3 was cut short so we'll never know if Kripke intended Sam to be different, but it was never established that Sam was indeed different after he was resurrected. That was a thought the YED put in Dean's mind and something Dean wondered about in S3. If they had somehow verified that Sam was different and then said he wasn't, that would have been a canon violation. As I recall, it was a question and nothing more.



    They did drop the other generations of special children but how is that a canon violation or changing the rules? I assume Jesse is still out there too.

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  107. And it's not even GOOD boo.

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  108. I don't agree with you, Ginger, but you gave a buncha buncha good reasons for feeling that way.

    Sometimes "I" wonder if I am feeling the real friendship/love between Jared and Jensen rather than Sam and Dean. Does that make sense?

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  109. I guess you could be right, but that's what I understood him to mean. Sam had been in the process of making a deal w/Death in S9. "Dean" shows up, and Sam ditches his original plan w/Death. I could see how Death would see that as Sam "standing him up."

    In any event, Death's words never bothered me. I didn't see Sam as arrogant for imagining Death. And I always thought he had imagined Death until this episode. Death being there makes sense to me b/c I truly believe Sam and Dean are the only two souls on Earth, with whom Death has a personal relationship. Plus, I think he would come to ensure that one of the two ppl messing w/nature is ushered away correctly.

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  110. I know, but Sam did not "know" Death in AHBL2. And in both DSOTM and AHBL, Sam was quickly or immediately killed. He had no time to bargain or plead like he did in the S9 premiere. By the S9 premiere, Death knew both Sam and Dean Winchester in a way I don't think he's known many ppl so I could see him coming to reap either of them.

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  111. Kripke may have changed his plans, but I feel his story flowed in a way Carver's does not. That's the difference for me. I'm sure in a 5-year show, esp. w/an unsupportive network, there are bound to be changes made, but I feel there was an overall story told. It may not have been the one Kripke was originally planning to tell, but it was still a coherent, decent, well-paced (for the most part) story.

    Carver's time has been a train wreck from 8x01.

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  112. Well, that's sad to hear. Who wants to be depressed at work and home? That would suck!



    I definitely agree w/you about it being hard to act a story you don't really believe in or think is right for your character. I think Jensen expressed similar feelings as Jared did in S6 about the Lisa/Ben story. Both actors didn't think their characters would have done what the writers had them doing.

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  113. I applaud your resolve to do a re-watch. I might watch this season again in a few years. Haha!

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  114. Sometimes "I" wonder if I am feeling the real friendship/love between Jared and Jensen rather than Sam and Dean.

    I believe you may be this season. I live for the "broments." I am a diehard brotherly bond fan, but Sam and Dean didn't have any good "broments" this year that I can recall. The closest they got - IMO - was when Sam stopped fighting Dean and kneeled down to be slaughtered, and Dean told him to close his eyes. That is the only moment this year to tug at my "bi-bro loving" heart. It wasn't as good as that moment in "Sacrifice", but it did tug at me a bit.

    I can recall no other good moments btw them. They don't laugh anymore or have fun together anymore. It would be nice to bring some lightness to their relationship. It doesn't have to be all dark, all the time, does it?

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  115. The subpar secondary characters (especially Cole and Claire) and too many filler episodes really hurt this season. I miss the days of great MOTW episodes and interesting guest stars.

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  116. My point was that many things are written off when they are no longer convenient. For example, where the frak is Crowley's time-traveling son? Did Kevin go to Heaven when the gates opened? What did the Angels do with Bobby? How was Crowley able to find Oscar soooo easily? There were far too many plot holes and inconsistencies in season 10. Also, instead of going after Crowley with a bullet and a hex bag, Sam could have killed him with the First Blade.

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  117. I did my re-watch. lol In looking at the episodes back to back his changes was like a glimpse. In then they stop it right there to get ready for the next MOTW episode, in then another MoC glimpse pop up again 3 episodes later. But looking at it week to week you will forget about it. They should of kept it going so the finale would of had more of a impact..

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  118. To be fair, those ideas were abandoned long before the spell or the Darkness were even thought of.

    Which may be part of the problem - instead of building an arc and seeing it through, they took in the ideas one after another and discarded them just as quickly.

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  119. The storyline was also, Sam believed Dean was dead. If you believed someone was dead, why would you look? It might even be worse if there was a body because it's so easy for them to make deals to bring each other back.

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  120. One explanation for Rowena's power that I'm willing to accept: her new found power is the result of the Book. Having used a spell from the BotD, she can now draw upon it to amplify her own power - like Metatron did with the tablets - which is why she was able to do something that was impossible for her an episode ago.

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  121. if I were Sam or Dean and I had been through what they had, and I know what they did and was able to do what they did, maybe, maybe not. If I believed someone was dead, then no, I wouldn't look.

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  122. If Rowena was this powerful before, why didn't she make better use of her spells and control people without killing them? Why did she run the first time she met Sam and Dean? Why did she let herself get captured and beaten up by demons? Why didn't she simply break free from her bonds and run away with both the Book and the Codex the moment Sam gave them to her?

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  123. Take a look at the time traveling episode. Something had been sucking the life out of creatures. Dean accosted it and disappeared in a flash of light. Did Sam assume that Dean was dead then? Did he drive off in despair and wander around aimlessly until he hit a dog? No, he looked for his brother. He called in Jody Mills for help. Even when he had an eyewitness telling him that the MotW had killed Dean in the past, Sam still kept trying to save Dean.

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  124. They were working a case then so Sam knew Dean was still alive and trapped in the past.

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  125. Sam can't use the First Blade.

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  126. My theory for next season: Crowley can't go back to Hell, and Heaven is
    closed off again. ALSO that Death was not Death, it was Metatron.
    Metatron would want Dean to kill Sam, just to screw with Dean. Metatron
    "always" knew about the MoC. What BETTER way to destroy Dean and THEN
    send him into eternal exile?


    That makes no sense at all. Cas is already banned from heaven, but Crowley is the King. Why wouldn't he be able to visit hell? Why would he want to, for that matter? He seems pretty content running things from earth.


    As for Death - Dean did a summoning ritual. A ritual specifically designed to summon Death. How would Metatron stop Death from appearing and appear as Death himself? Especially now that he has no grace and is just a human?

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  127. Crowley did yell about Sam trying to kill him.

    I think he was a lot more interested in screwing Rowena over once he saw the ingredients to worry about Sam. Also, notice how they didn't have any interaction this episode - so we don't know how he'd have reacted to Sam.

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  128. "Castiel thought Closing Heaven meant closing the angels from interfering
    but in practice it was kicking the angels out of heaven and de-powering
    them in many ways."

    Castiel thought that because that's what Metatron told him would happen. Metatron lied. There may have been a set of trials to close heaven like there were to close hell, but Metatron didn't tell Cas about that and used him for a spell with completely different side-effects.

    Although, as far as closing hell goes, I think the writers should have gone through with it. Let's say Sam uses one last big dose of human blood on Crowley and says the final exorcism spell just as Dean comes to stop him. Sam thinks he has cured Crowley and refuses to be talked out - so he says the magic words to signify the completion of the third trial. However, Crowley isn't fully human, he just has a lot of aspects of being one. Since last trial is vaguely completed (crowley is "cured" in a sense, but he is also a demon), the gates are closed, but all the demons already on earth, remain on earth.

    Crowley still has his powers as a demon, but becomes more mopey, crying and "human" - like he did anyway in season 9. Abaddon's plan - now that she can't go back home anymore - is to create a new hell on earth by turning souls into demons here - like she did anyway in season 9. Since Sam did complete the trials, he is about to die - but since the last one was unconfirmed, Sam dies slowly until he is saved by angel possession - like he did in season 9. Basically, all this does is give the boys one great win while keeping everything else the same.

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  129. "OH I see, selling your soul for another CREATED "the Righteous Man;" I can get behind that idea."


    I can't. Did no one in the entire history of deal making ever sell his/her soul for a loved one? We know that the guy from Crossroads Blues sold his soul to save his wife and I'm pretty sure there were others as well. In that case, the first seal should've broken long, long ago. Unless Dean is such a weakling that he'd break in 40 years where others have endured for thousands.

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  130. My theory is that Rowena needed to do a spell from the BotD in order to "take possession" of it. Doing a spell to render Dean mortal was just killing 2 birds with 1 stone. Once she "took possession", she was able to channel its power and do things previously impossible for her, like controlling demons and angels.

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  131. I agree. I expect the boys to crawl out of the Impala...maybe coughing a little bit...don their FBI suits and head off to guest star in one-bit character stories until the last two episodes of the season.


    I am going to watch the premiere and the last episode or two of S11 and call it good. I don't care about those other one bits, and two to three episodes will tell what Winchester story there is that will be told.

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  132. Before she needed a hex-bag to perform the Canis curse on normal humans. Now she is able to do it to angels with just a wave of her hand?

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  133. I had forgotten that so thanks for the reminder. That said, my point still stands. They bring stuff up and then drop it when it's no longer convenient.

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  134. I don't believe John as 'meant' to be the righteous man. Azalea thought he was, but when it turned out he wasn't, they were after Dean. I believe Dean was the goal all along and he was used as bait to get to Sam.

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  135. He *knew* nothing of the sort. All he knew was that Dean had just disappeared. He figured the rest of it out later because he KEPT LOOKING. And if he had kept looking after Dean disappeared in the finale instead of moronically assuming that he was dead, he'd have figured out th epurgatory thing too.

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  136. Yes, it does.

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  137. There were bro-moments, lala -- at least Carver intended them to be -- but the brothers didn't SAY anything to each other. Sam worried and Dean said he was okay. There was nothing emotional to connect with, because there was nothing meaningful that was said and no tension even to back up Sam's worry.


    Like you, the "Close your eyes, Sammy," was a good line. I couldn't get behind Sam saying Dean was a good man, though, because every time he says anything close to that, my mind flashes back to his Purge speech. I really needed something in this season that cleared that up, and it never happened.

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  138. What part don't you agree with evave?

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  139. Sam broke Death free of Lucifer's will when he jumped into the Pit at the end of Season 5. Even if Death doesn't care about puny humans in general, he must have been grateful for that on some level. So I have no problem in believing that he would have come to reap Sam personally (or Dean for that matter). And if Death was in Sam's mind, where was his reaper then, as he was so close to dying?


    Also, Carver doesn't write Death like Kripke did. Carver's Death is much more human, and unfortunately, ordinary.

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  140. I can understand that. Sam's line of "I lied" was enough for me, esp since I found his attitude re: Dean completely OOC and OTT. So, I liked Sam's words to Dean and Dean's line to Sam about closing his eyes.

    The broments of Carver's era just don't compare to Kripke's broments. It's sad.

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  141. Yeah....way too subtle for my taste.

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  142. I can accept the "I lied" about not letting Dean die if he were in the same circumstance, but that did not cover all the mean and petty words about being selfish and willing to hurt others. Sam saying those things went to the core of Dean's foundational being, so I needed to hear more than two words as Dean collapsed dying.

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  143. I think that when Dean was in Purgatory, Sam believed or had convinced himself that Dean was dead and in Heaven. Sam wasn't going to take him back from Heaven.


    Fast forward to this year, and now after Dean berating him for 2 years about not doing extreme things to save him, Sam has finally listened and is now as screwed up as his brother.

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  144. Well, according to Jared, "Sam" was lying about much of what he said. Jared says Sam was just trying to hurt Dean. I hated TP speech so I'm willing to buy it. Haha.

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  145. The story was that Sam thought Dean was dead. Sam stated that when he first saw Dean. Now, Carver never bothered to establish WHY Sam thought Dean was dead, but it is clear he did. If you believe that, then it makes perfect sense why Sam did not search for Dean. If he believed Dean to be dead, he would not search for him. You don't look for dead people.

    Now, why Carver NEVER allowed Sam to say this when he was repeatedly grilled about his actions is beyond me, but he, clearly, wanted Sam to look like the shady, uncaring brother. He achieved his goal for some. For me, I saw it (and still see it) as whacky, bad, OOC writing for which I refuse to hold against "Sam."

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  146. I understand Jensen's frustration with Charlie's death even though I found her insufferable. The main cast seems upset with the constant elimination of female characters. Misha spoke about it too in one of his panels. It's like they want their characters to have friends and allies, especially of the opposite sex to balance things out. But as soon as one's foothold gets a little stable the writers ax her.


    I doubt Jensen thought of Charlie as a model character. My suspicion is at this point he is willing to take anything to break out of the four man claustrophobia club.

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  147. Come on, Ginger. Dean WAS selfish when he let Sam be possessed, and he let Sam be hurt. That speech was about the possession and was said in anger. It's too bad the dialogue was so broad, implying that Dean had always been like that, but it's obvious to me that it was all about the possession. Sam talked about Kevin, not past events. You know, each time Dean talks about not being able to trust Sam, it goes to the core of Sam's foundational being too. Both brothers can be jerks to each other and IMO, the Purge speech wasn't any worse than some of the things Dean has said to Sam in the past.

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  148. I'm counting Edlund as 5. He was a great loss.

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  149. I think that pretty much establishes that the Death in season 9 premiere was the real deal.Opinions differ, and we'll never know until we ask the writers, but I maintain that what he meant by being stood up was that Sam was supposed to die and Death was waiting (on his throne, or wherever he is) to receive his soul, and he didn't come. It's not concrete proof of S9 Death being real.I get that this was a joke, but the point of it seems to be that Sam could've been convinced to give up on Dean and to stop looking for him without needing to die.No, it was satire to point at the absurdity of that storyline, and also show how Carver keeps contradicting himself. If Sam is such a trooper in trying to bring back Dean. so much so that only his death would stop him, why wasn't he shown as such in Carver's own initial season?

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  150. To truly understand and critique a show you actually need to know something about writing. When people call something retcon OVER context or OOC over character development ahead of what the boys normally show. No offense but very few fans get this. The show works off of established BIBLICAL mythology. Read about the actual MoC or the various ways they spun Lucifer which worked!

    No the show is just fine. It is similar to Stargate that way. Old wor5ld mythologies are being used to create characters and interesting stories nothing more. This is NOT some nefarious plot to ruin Supernatural. it is simply a show being created and I am now happy to be a fan of the "Little Show that COULD". I was sickened when they killed Bobby, I felt like never watching the show again but it sucked me right back in with the interesting Purgatory storyline. No there is nothing wrong with the show, merely with some of the fans of the show and how they perceive it wrongly in my view. Merely an opinion nothing more.

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  151. There is very little hope that season 11 will be better written then season 10. The best thing we can hope or do for these writers is to tweet them some great ideas and hope to god they completely rip us off and use our ideas.

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  152. I have been thinking Carver is lazy since season 8. We all notice that canon has been send under the bus during these last 3 seasons by different writers. Well, it's his job to check every scrips and make sure it fixes the story and the history of the show. He is, in my eyes responsible for all the mistakes made. i remember when they explained how Garth was almost killed in a script but Sera Gamble reading it said no. That's what a show runner is supposed to do: read and correct every scripts.
    Jensen said at last con, it took them 3 months to find this final, Bob Singer said they don't know how to come out of their finals. It shows that Carver doesn't have a plan and that's the problem with the show. A show runner should know where it is going for at least one season but here with have the MOC which lasted 1 and a half year and nothing really happened because they were too afraid to make Dean the bad guy and no idea how to come out of it.
    I was really hopping Carver would leave after his 3 years but I guess we would have heard it already if it was the case. Too bad.

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  153. Of course, she'll be the only one who can defeat the darkness! ;)

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  154. I agree it was crappy writing.

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  155. I think that was the point, the magic was too powerful that humans couldn't handle it, like the attack dog spell.


    Again, iron hampered her ability to use magic, she could not break free of them anymore than Charlie could have.

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  156. And that is something the show has done from the very beginning, Crowley's son that could up next season for all we know. Kevin I'm under the assumption that he's tether to his father's ring, so unless Linda destroyed it, he's still with her. What happened to Bobby, he got punished. What that entails we'll probably find out next season. Crowley found Oskar because Olivette told him about him, and had his demons simply search for him. Hell, he was able to get Death's Scythe and locate Death, you think one human is going to be trouble?


    Unless Sam has the Mark of Cain, the First Blade wold work about as good as a normal knife on a demon.

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  157. Okay, Tessa told Dean reapers can alter perception, even though nothing was said of that ability in "Faith." So then the idea of rogue reapers isn't canon violation, since there was nothing said in the show prior that they couldn't do that.

    Nick made sense because he was a back-up vessel, why would Sam who was basically destined to be Lucifer one true vessel need to drink demon blood to contain him? Yet Dean doesn't need to do anything for Michael, in fact he was told he wouldn't even become catatonic. Even John didn't become catatonic after being used as a vessel.


    Or Kripke retconned because he hadn't thought of the fifth season at all until he started writing it.


    Season 3 "Sin City" Sam kills the demon Casey, it was clearly hinting at Sam being more bloodthristy like at the end of season 2.


    Less a violation and more a fact that yes, Kripke chose to disregard and ignore plenty of stuff. But people choose to think his seasons were perfectly plotted, when they in fact were not.

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  158. Another reason for the huge dose of demon blood is because Sam wanted to wrest control from Lucifer. He binged on the demon blood to get strong.

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  159. Did Jensen say he didn't want Charlie to die because she was female? I heard a comment that he said she was a fun character, but I didn't hear that he said gender was an issue. Him wanting more side characters around makes sense given his and Jarad's wishes for more time off.

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  160. Dean empties an entire clip into the shapeshifter, while she is dead on the ground in "Ask Jeeves" That was overkill and very clearly meant to be the MoC acting up, and then when Sam questions him about he gets defensive.


    After Dean killed the vampires he lied to Sam about the Mark affecting him afterwards.


    Also there was that one episode where he took on the vamp nest solo.

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  161. The only things I know of the original season 3 plans, was that Ellen was supposed to show up (maybe Jo too, but not 100%), Gordon's storyline was going to revolve around him gathering a posse of huners to go after Sam for the hunter he killed in season 2, but the actor was starring in another show, so Kripke just decided to finish up the Gordon story with 2 episodes. And Henriksen probably would have survived the season.

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  162. That wasn't the point, it was that Sam had more colder/bloodthirsty look when he killed the demons, signal something might be off.

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  163. That's BS. You were completely off base with your comment.

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  164. Personally, except for Death, I wished they would kill off all the boring side characters they have now and get some decent ones that fit the SPNverse. I hate people like Claire, Sheriff Donut and Cole. Unfortunately, we would probably get more cartoonish ones or somebody like Rudy, who was supposed to be a hunter, yet he stood there with no hunter moves and thought he could come to an "understanding" with a friggin' vampire. How stupid is that for a supposed hunter...and he looked like he just crawled out of a ditch after an all night drunk. Unfortunately, again, I think that's what Carver thinks hunters and hunting are.

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  165. I know JP said that, but to hurt Dean on that level makes Sam look vindictive and petty. That's why I needed more. I don't think Sam in that way (I do think he is selfish and manipulative); but, unfortunately, the words are in the narrative and has not been corrected.


    What I do think that when Carver screws up bit time, like not looking for Dean and the Purge speech, he develops amnesia and won't admit his mistakes. His idea of correctly the mistake is to give Dean the, "you should be up there" speech -- a tit for tat. To me, that reflects more on Carver's character than it does the Winchesters.

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  166. Sam never seemed angry at Dean for returning from Purgatory - a little worried about him, and frustrated, and a little angry, that Dean was so dismissive of every choice Sam had made.

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  167. I have always viewed Dean as more of a parent to Sam than a brother. With that in mind, it makes perfect sense to me why Dean is so willing to do anything to save Sam. I believe most parents would do anything for their children.

    So, I don't think Dean was acting from a place of selfishness when he asked Gadreel to save Sam. I just think he wanted to save his brother. As you said, Sam's speech was overly broad and did manage to indict Dean's entire character. That's where Carver took it too far for me.

    Plus, I felt Sam's overly harsh words took the focus off Sam's justified anger and on to Dean's hurt feelings. So, we never got to explore how Sam felt about what happened or how it impacted him. From TP forward, it was about Dean's feelings and the brotherly conflict. And then Carver downplays everything about the possession. It was ridiculous!

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  168. Sam didn't want to die in the S9 premiere. He just accepted that his body was dying. There is a difference in accepting the inevitable and wanting to die, IMO. Sam did the former IMO.

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  169. Well, Carver is a horrible showrunner so bad writing is to be expected at this point.

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  170. Yup! That's why I don't hold it against Sam. I'd like to believe Dean doesn't honestly hold Sam's soullessness against him, but according to whacky Carver, he does! That makes no sense!

    You just have to chalk some things up to incredibly bad writing and let it go.

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  171. I don't remember the shapeshifter episode at all. However Dean killed her must have had no lasting impact on me as I can't even recall the scene.

    I don't remember the episode with the vampires at all. Was that the one where Dean left the kitchen and had a strange look on his face while Sam told Cas Dean WASN'T okay?

    The solo vamp hunt was in the Charlie death episode, right? Dean seemed fine to me in that episode.

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  172. Yeah, I don't know what to call his "mean face" in AHBL2 when he kills Jake and Casey and her priest boy friend in SC. Yeah, that look was pretty scary. BUT I think "mean face" (snarly face? out out damned spot face?) in AHBL2 was slightly scarier because by the time we got to SC he was just in "protect Dean" mode. (PS I also noted that in Season 3, practically every demon Sam meets, like the priest from SC, is talking about "sloppy needy screw-up Dean" it seemed to me to cause distance between Sam & Dean. I have always been curious WHEN Kripke abandoned the idea that Sam would save Dean but become corrupted enough for Lucifer to possess. Because they weren't doing it later in the Season, were they?)

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  173. I completely disagree about Sam being bloodthirsty in S3. I didn't see that at all. Sam killed Casey because she was a demon. There was nothing more to that scene IMO.

    The idea of rogue reapers never bothered me that much. I was more troubled with the backdoor to Purgatory nonsense, and retconning reapers into angels.

    I always thought Sam needed the DB because he was housing the ultimate evil. Dean was going to house a god angel so I wouldn't think he would need DB.

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  174. To truly understand and critique a show you actually need to know something about writing. If this is directed at me, I assure you I know "something" about writing. Just because I don't advertise my experience and education doesn't mean I have no writing related background. One has to at least have some idea what they're talking about if they've written 43+ reviews about a show's writing. When people call something retcon OVER context or OOC over character development ahead of what the boys normally show. No offense but very few fans get this.I have no clue what this means. I suspect part of your sentence got cut.The show works off of established BIBLICAL mythology.Not anymore, or at least not as faithfully and skillfully as seasons 4&5. You can't tell me Carver's angels are true to Biblical angels. My critique isn't of the show as a whole. It's about the current season and most often, the latest episode.

    You sound like a new fan who just caught up, and a happy fan, which are both ok. However if you are going to come out with strong statements such as "the show is fine," or "there's nothing wrong with the show," you better back it up with a better argument than "it's the fans." Especially if you preface your comment with a lesson on writing.I would rather watch this than some rehashed garbage reality TV show which I believe has bastardized regular dramatic TV too long and changed the way people watch TV and what they want to watch and believe in.No argument there, which is why I don't watch a single reality show. But I watch two dozen dramas if not more and this show, in it's current state, is nowhere near the top of that list.

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  175. lala2, I didn't mean dropping the psy-kids was a canon violation, I was just saying it was something that bugged me.



    I personally liked the idea of the Roadhouse, and the atmosphere they put in there with the various characters walking in and out. If there is a "Hunter world" out there, it made sense to me to run into Hunters every once in a while (and not sad sacks Ritchie and Rudy). I also liked Ash the character very much.



    So "not a canon violation" just, I didn't like that idea that they did on the show.

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  176. It still doesn't make sense, because Luifer is still an archangel. THe rules shouldn't be different for him.

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  177. Most parents would do anything for a child, but when Dean admitted to Gadreel that Sam would rather die that allow himself to be possessed by anything, it raises the question whether he was really doing it for Sam or because he didn't want to be alone, as Sam said.

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  178. Ask Jeeves was the episode based on Clue in which "clown college Collette" got murdered by the shapeshifter girl who had been raised in the attic. It was pretty fun for me. And then Dean shot her about 30 times (well, at least 10) w/silver bullets.


    The solo vamp hunt was in The Werther Box episode. Dean killed six vamps (claimed it was a personal solo best) and then opened their fridge and got a beer. Dean was a little too hyper in that episode in the beginning and then seemed to mellow out and figure out how to open the box (both HIS and SAM'S blood).


    I don't remember which episode Hellboy is alluding too either for his second example.

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  179. Don't vomit. PLEASE.

    The business with Charlie was necessarily JUST about Charlie. For a long time Dean has felt closed off because everybody who helps them dies. He has gotten so "congealed" where others are concerned. The fact is, whenever they ran into Charlie he ALWAYS gave her a lecture NOT to hunt, as a matter of fact, to just STAY THE HELL AWAY.

    When our son was about two he was mimicking a tv show and woke up my husband that way, holding two butter knives over him going hahahaha. Scared my husband, I must say.

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  180. The smash-his face-into-the-table violence was no different from Sam smashing-the-bartender's-face-into-the-bar in About a Boy.

    I was like Dean, when Castiel said he "went too far" I went WTF?

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  181. I liked Cole, and while I agree Claire was filler, I appreciated the fact that Claire, out of ALL the people in the show's "world" has REAL grounds to be pissed at all the leads.

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  182. But Sam wasn't there. It would've made more sense to me if she did NOT de-curse Dean just to get back at Sam and walked off as she did with the BotD in her hot little hands.

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  183. What Hunter did Sam kill in Season 2? Totally spacing it out. Again, I am just hearing things other people say about what plans "may" have been originally but I thought Gordon was getting a posse together to kill DEAN. And I didn't know why, I thought maybe BOTH, because, like Walt said to Roy in DSotM: we just smoked his brother, we'll be looking over our shoulders for the rest of our lives. So which Hunter did Sam kill, and Who was the actor who got another show? Just curious, these kinds of behind the scenes things intrigue me.

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  184. THAT makes sense. John was such a hard-to-figure-out character for me. He absolutely devastated his sons but spent every minute of every day trying to save other people. BUT his motivation (to me) was poor because he had revenge as a motivator, whereas to me, Dean WAS the Righteous Man because he was doing it to save every person he could from suffering the fate of their family. Today Jump the Shark was on, and at the end Dean told Sam that he had finally realized that Dad and Sam were exactly alike in that regard, and Sam did not know it was not a compliment.

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  185. Sam was not a bit worried about Dean. At first he felt guilty because he had dumped Kevin (and Meg) -- nothing to do with not looking for Dean at all -- then he was jealous as hell because Benny helped Dean out of Purgatory. That's why he was hellbent on wanting to kill Benny, and that's why he enlisted Crazy Martin to track Benny. Again, just like the hurtful words he said to Dean in The Purge, it was petty.


    I am not bashing Sam's character here, but that is the way it was written, and I have yet to figure out what Carver thinks he is doing for Sam's character. Well...actually, I think Carver is trying to make both of the Winchesters lesser as he builds up his ensemble cast. I don't think he likes writing for either Winchester, quite frankly.

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  186. I really liked episode 2 (the fight with Cole), episode 3 (demon Dean with the ax in the hallway) and About a Boy (I got no grass in the infield) as well.

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  187. I still want the Colt back. If there were four (or five, can't remember) beings it couldn't kill, well all the archangels are either dead or imprisoned, Death just bit the dust (maybe), and God is incommunicado. So whatever is left is fair game, unless The Darkness, like the Leviathans, can't be killed by usual means EITHER.

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  188. Sam made the choice to die when, in his mind, he zaps out of the Impala after Dean says to Head!Bobby that he (Dean) is in the front seat because Sam put him there. Bobby zaps to the front, and then Sam and Bobby leave to go to the Head!Cabin where now, according to Carver and I will never believe it, he meets Real!Death (I'm still calling BS on that one).


    Before Sam goes into the cabin, he tells Dean there is nothing left to fight for. Dean tells him he knows what is in that house (death) and that he can't do anything for Sam if Sam won't fight. Sam says, "I know."


    That's giving up, quitting, being done, and ready to go. There's no more arguing with himself about living or dying. Sam chose to die -- he wanted to die.

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  189. It doesn't let Sam off the hook for Kevin. He KNEW KEVIN was alive. And in Crowley's clutches.

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  190. I don't think Glass leaving to do Criminal Minds is "running" from the show. Being a showrunner himself is a HELL of a promotion. It also shows that people respect his work.

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  191. I wouldn't call it BS, but as with Glass leaving to be a showrunner, which, hello is a HUGE promotion, isn't that what Edlund did? BOTH of them left for damn good reason. It wasn't that they hated where they were/what they were doing: they got the chance to do something BETTER which pays MUCH BETTER. I'd've taken it too.

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  192. Harper, I might give anybody the idea that Sam thought Dean was dead; BUT he knew Kevin was alive and totally shirked his responsibility to a 17yo boy there.

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  193. The way I understand from actors' discussions, they have to find "the truth" of their character, even a crazed evil bad bad guy so they can act it out. And when actors are doing a part for a while, they have internalized "who" the character is and "what" he would do in any situation.

    Both these guys are professional and acted out what they were given, they gave their input, it may have caused some changes in emphasis, but since by this time it is like asking THEM to do things they wouldn't do, they have difficulty internally. They can DO it, but it feels "wrong" to them.

    At least That's What I Think happens when they are given crap storylines.

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  194. The camera focuses in on Sam watching Dean as he's staring at the vending machine in the premiere, and then not ordering anything. Sam then orders Dean a burger even though Dean didn't ask for it. Sam's look and actions imply that Sam was concerned about Dean. It's been a while since I've seen the season, but I remember there also being times when Sam asked Dean about Purgatory but Dean wouldn't say much.

    Your interpretation that Sam's look at Benny was jealousy is just your interpretation. Another (crazy) theory is that Sam might be a hunter who didn't trust a vampire that had gotten too close to his emotionally vulnerable brother (who he was worried about) and enlisted the help of another hunter to help watch him when he couldn't be there.

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  195. Thanks for agreeing with me even though I didn't see it yet. And lala2, what I LIKE about Jensen is the subtlety of his acting.

    Like this episode, I SAW Jensen change when Sam handed over the pictures of Mom, tricky tricky Sam.

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  196. We got rid of the MoC but in such a way nothing was really resolved. You're right, I hadn't thought of it that way.

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  197. I didn't see on any of the tweets from the cons that JA said that JP was depressed because of Sam's arc. He said that he was wore out because he gives a lot to everything he does.

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  198. BUT the actress, since she stopped the most overt manipulation EVER attempted of Crowley and is now his avowed enemy, is really fun to watch.

    On a shallow note, she has beautiful beautiful skin and hair.

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