Now that's more like it.
I've got to admit, I didn't have much initial hope for this episode. Its opening scene was ridiculous: They couldn't come up with a better bullying excuse than, "I don't think you ever got laid?" Then there was the awful Charlie montage, in which all her Poochie moments were put on show, and rubbed in our faces, including her forgiveness of Dean. By the 6 minute mark my notes were full of "No!' and my head hurt. I worried about the length of this review.
But then something happened and the episode rightened itself. Maybe that bit at the beginning was Dabb simply cleaning up after Thompson. This is what the season has overall felt like to me. Clumsy writer stomping around in his episode, good writer coming at his heels to fix things. Dabb even tried to fix the Stynes. His efforts showed in the way he portray them as some sort of white pride, mad scientist organization as opposed to the godlike entities B&L made them. It helped make them more believable, though not by much.
What he did succeed in however was to make me feel tense for the first time in a long time. I honestly can't remember being at the edge of my seat, and worried for a character, since the premier of season 7. Dabb induced that feeling in me twice in this episode, the second time so intense it left me shaking. It's always great to feel involved and connected to what you see on TV, and for that alone I'll give this episode thumbs up. Of course there are still gripes to talk about, but this episode was such an improvement over the last one - and such a rare trinket in the rough dirt of this season - I have to talk about the good parts first.
The Good
Sam: The (emotional) white knight
Another thing this episode (this season really,) did right was make me feel for Sam again. Since Sam came back from the pit soulless in season 6 I never really had cause to care about him, mainly because everyone else on the show - spearheaded by Dean of course - overwhelmingly cared for him. He felt like the special offspring of a rich family who was constantly fussed over while he himself went about caring for no one. It didn't help that he was also sick, possessed, angry and made to be the sacrificial lamb nearly all the time.
This thankfully changed this season and I couldn't be more grateful for it. It was one of my gripes about Sam's writing (along with his lack of POV) and I am pleased to see it addressed and fixed. However, as much as I liked this new him, I still didn't have any occasion to feel something toward him, until now. This episode, the way Dean scolded him (more on that in gripe 2,) the way he desperately tried to fix what he had broken, and the way his attempts at killing Crowley backfired and threatened his life, made my heart reach to him. It was a good feeling because Jared was marvelous in the role and was handed good material to work with, stuff that brought his Puppy Dog Sam to the front and pulled me to his side at last.
The first edge-of-my seat moment that I talked about in the intro was when Crowley's eyes turned red and he threw Sam across the room. Of course I knew Sam wouldn't die. What I was worried about though was the possibility of him getting struck with a spell, or getting harmed in a terrible, permanent way that would take away the good, normal Sam and bring back the sick, bitter, mopey Sam. If I had a choice between Sam leaving the show for a while vs. him being replaced with his soulless (or Amelia obsessed) version, I'll take a missing Sam any day as long as he maintains his loving, white knight persona when he comes back.
Speaking of his white knight side, it was in full force this episode. It was heartbreaking yet good to watch Sam make mistakes in order to save Dean. This may sound strange but I prefer this stumbling, fumbling Sam that causes disasters just to save his brother, whom he loves, over the heroic guy who went through the trials to save the world. Explaining why a mess like season 10 Sam is better than a martyr like he was in season 8 will require a full essay. All I say is motive makes all the difference. As an ordinary human, I find it easier to relate to someone making mistakes to save a loved one than someone sacrificing himself to save the world. It's simply more familiar and relevant to me, and also because I care more about Dean than the world they live in. For this reason alone I have nothing but love for Sam this season, and no blame whatsoever for the actions he committed in the name of saving Dean.
Castiel: The (logical) dark knight
Speaking of mistakes committed because of love, there's Castiel and my love for him since season 6 despite him being the champion of bad decisions for nearly 5 years. Of course I didn't blame him either for all his indiscretions, even if they led to unleashing the Leviathans and almost destroying the world, again due to his motive being helping the Winchesters and earning Dean's love.
This season he is more in control and less likely to act impulsively. The change is almost as remarkable as Sam's (this of course applies to mythology Castiel, not the one used to prop Hannah and Claire.) Castiel still loves Dean. That part of his character remains constant. Yet, as I mentioned in my review for 10x14, it's a more informed and less emotional love than Sam's, in that he seems to care more about what will save Dean's soul as opposed to what will guarantee his survival. He also knows that if it ever comes to a point when all is lost, it would have to be him who ends Dean.
In possibly the best sequence this season since Dean's fight with Cain, Castiel comes face to face with a MOC charged Dean and his role as the dark knight - the one tasked with stopping Dean at all cost and with no regards to emotions or consequences to self - is confirmed. His firm stand is almost as heartbreaking as Sam's desperate struggle. He knows who and what he is facing but he doesn't let that get to him. His speech about being the last man standing should Dean succumb to darkness, and the unspoken lines about how it would end in the death of one, or both of them, is one of the highlights of this episode. It neatly ties the events of the last two episodes to the legacy of Cain. It's also a curious revelation as it makes the assumption that Castiel would survive Dean's carnage beyond Sam, conflicting with the scenario Cain offered Dean, which predicted his death before Dean's biological brother, the proverbial Able of his story.
The second heart-pumping scene of the episode, the one that left me shaking even after the credits appeared, was Dean and Castiel's fight at the end. Not only was it a parallel to the crypt scene from season 8, it threw suspicion over Castiel's claim that he was the one who would stop Dean by choosing the 'right thing' over feelings. If you pay attention you'll see that nowhere during the scuffle does Castiel fight back. He's an angel at full charge yet he doesn't throw one punch, not even when his life is in danger.
When Dean took out the angel blade and raised it over Castiel's heart I panicked. No matter how secure Misha's role as a regular on the show is I am always worried about his character getting killed off. After what happened to Charlie, whom I thought would last until the end of the series, it's understandable I had a small heart attack between the time Dean brought the blade down and the time they showed it stuck in a book next to Castiel's head. It was quite a thrill and I truly enjoyed it.
Dean: The one who needs to be saved
Finally, finally we saw with our own eyes why Dean needs an intervention. It was about time.
When they introduced the young, nerdy Styne at the beginning of the episode I knew it was going to go one of two ways. Either they used him to demonstrate how far Dean had fallen, or he'd be one more case for MoC Dean failing to be the threat Sam claimed him to be. I cheered when it turned out to be the former.
The scene where Dean held the gun to the kid's head produced a different kind of tension in me, this time because I desperately wanted him to pull the trigger. Not because I hate Dean, or get a sick satisfaction from him killing an innocent teen, but because, no matter who the character is, I value story over social morale (more on this, and its exceptions, in gripe 2). This is why I liked demon-blood addicted Sam in seasons 4-5, and fallen Cas in season 6. They did bad things, just like what Dean did this episode, or Sam did by involving Charlie and lying to Dean. But their downfall serves the story better than their clean image. It makes me care and worry about them, and be curious about how they would fight their way out of the hole they've dug themselves into.
Last but not least, I liked how Dean kept interrupting the villain while he was trying to deliver his typical villain monologue. After years of having listen to these guys babble in front of the heroes like rejected James Bond masterminds, it was delightful to see a natural reaction from the guy who was monologued on. The part when he mentioned the one brain before shooting the Styne in the head had me both giggle and clap because of its sheer timing and awesomeness.
The Gripes
#1 - The Stynes being the Stynes
It will forever be a mystery to me why the Stynes were such cartoonish, implausible villains. They dissected a living teenager and no one got the wiser. Worse, it looked like they’ve been doing it for years. If it were people off the street – prostitutes, homeless folk, those the society doesn't care about – I might have understood. But this victim has parents who would likely report him missing, which would lead to cops tracing his whereabouts to the Stynes, since the young Styne was the last person he talked to. Unless the Stynes had made a deal with the devil to remain invisible there is no explanation for why they are able to skirt the law and continue their “harvesting.”
That’s the problem with human villains on a supernatural show. With demons, witches and Leviathans one could reason their paranormal abilities allow them to walk outside the boundaries of human society. With humans it gets tricky. Unless the law enforcement officers in the entire SPN universe are all as dumb as the ones we saw in this episode – the molester type more interested in senselessly arresting an innocent man behind an Impala rather than going after murderers– I can't see why the Stynes aren't sharing a cell block with Charles Manson.
Fortunately it no longer matters as Dean made short work of them. Still I can't shed the disappointment that they didn’t put up an interesting fight. The show didn't give them anything to match Dean’s MOC strength to make the sequence of Dean being captured and trapped more exciting. Remember how fearsome the Leviathans were in the beginning of season 7 because they couldn’t be killed? The fact that the Stynes had no powers other than being walking Frankensteins eliminated any possibility for tension. We knew Dean would make goulash out of them and there was no cause for us to worry about Dean. I know it was all about him being consumed by the mark but even that was inevitable so this whole sequence was predictable from the start.
#2 - Dean dealing low blows to those who love him
This has potential for controversy; I wouldn't be surprised if it raises heated debates. I touched on this in my review for episode 1, when they showed Demon Dean verbally abuse a woman the morning after. As with that incident, Dean being hurtful to Sam in this episode was both out of character and uncalled for. I said in that earlier review that there’s an art in deconstructing a hero and that is to make them evil without making them nasty. If the mark is getting to Dean and making him act angry, showing him beat Castiel is a good way to demonstrate it, as is shooting a boy. Having him tell Sam he wished it was him on the pyre is taking it a step too far. Aside from the fact that Dean’s protective instincts toward Sam are too ingrained in him to say such a thing, it's plain wrong for him to even contemplate it about a person he loves, and who loves him, let alone say it while looking completely sober.
To see the contrast between this and when it's done right, I'll give you two examples. When Castiel was going dark side in season 6, clever writers like Edlund and Gamble made sure to walk the line carefully and not tip him too far. Hence he would scheme with Crowley behind the Winchesters’ back, but declare the brothers off limit and exempt from harm. He would kill a room full of humans, yet not raise a finger against Dean, Sam, and Bobby, not even when they sicced death on him.The writers created a balance that made us want to save him instead of punch him in the face.
Another example was Bobby in season 5. After he found out Sam jump-started the apocalypse by blindly following Ruby he told him to "lose his number." He didn't say, "go kill yourself," or "I wished you were dead," even though he was both justifiably angry and possessed by a demon.
Unfortunately with Dean, and Sam, the writers at times fail to observe these boundaries. Whether it's because they are taken over by evil, feel hurt due to the wrong doings of a loved one, or simply choose to do so, Sam and Dean sometimes cross the line into low-blows, and/or kicking someone when they are down. In Dean's case, it happened when he left Castiel stranded in an insane asylum right after he saved Sam from Hallucifer, then came back to rake him over the coals some more even though he was mentally ill. Another example was his abandonment of Benny. And now we have him wish for Sam's death, to his face, because of a mistake Sam made out of love.
I am not saying characters shouldn’t express anger and frustration. Neither am I implying they shouldn’t be unforgiving when the narrative calls for it. What I'm saying is that such a subject matter should be handled tactfully and tastefully so it wouldn't over boil and damage the character's rapport with the audience. The goal is to make us sympathize with our heroes even when they are playing for the wrong team, or are hurt by that team. Having them beat another character’s face and chest bloody is ok for this purpose, lower blows run the risk of toppling the Jenga tower and leaving a bad taste in our mouths.
#3 - Rowena being useless
Finally my persistent problems with Rowena came to a head this episode. Rowena is a throwaway character in every sense of the word, but mostly because everything she did on the show could have been done by Crowley. If they had changed the story in a way that eliminated Rowena entirely and used Crowley in her place two things would have happened: we would have been spared her long scenes and pointless dialogues (about the coven and her rival witches) which amounted to nothing, and Crowley’s presence would have had more meaning on the show. As it was, Rowena's disjointed storyline only served to make Sam and Castiel look like morons, and Crowley look like a sad orphan, nostalgic for something he never had in canon in the first place. And yes, I know Crowley was supposedly getting in touch with his newly awakened human side. It's just that Rowena never seemed to have anything to do with his humanity as she mostly focused on his ego, greed and pride.
Only one episode left, so take this opportunity to voice your opinion about the penultimate episode before the grand finale next week. I will post an overall GR analysis which will discuss the season as a whole afterwards, and then it will be goodbye until season 11.
Tessa
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Interesting review.
ReplyDelete#1 Stynes were all hubris with a bit of stitch work, they have money and can pay to cover their tracks when it comes to dealings. The kid killed to get his arm would probably have his body dumped miles away or his body wouldn't be found so allowing the police to just casually talk to the young Styne for the files and the case will never be officially closed and his disappearance put down to having it confirmed that both his parents were in fact banging the pool boy.
But also the Stynes were introduced to serve two purposes, firstly they are simply Randy and the loan sharks mark two. The audience kind of understood why Dean killed them because they tipped him over the edge by hitting him in the head. The Stynes, kill Charlie, are douches so Dean goes over the edge and kills them. They aren't really monsters in the supernatural sense but they aren't exactly human either - so no real foul in Dean killing them But also they wanted to show Dean slowly becoming Cain in reverse, by killing the young Styne simply because he was of bad blood. Means that we get the tension that after beating Cas, Dean might kill Sam.
#2 Dean's low blow, simply a parallel to the low blows from Sam last season. Cack handed way to make it look like the boys relationships is more healthy than usual but that is the only way I can rationalise it. Dean gets angry, lashes out with words while cutting Sam off instead of bottling things up and hitting a shocked Sam who can't believe Dean is angry at him after he gives his reasoning.
I mean last season Sam told Dean they weren't brothers and he wouldn't try and save him when he was angry.I did say Dean and Sam. And you're right. I didn't like Sam's barbs thrown at Dean last season either and thought Dean wasn't to blame for what he did re:Gadreel, because like Sam this season, he did it out of love. You may have a point though. The writers just might think it's a sign of closeness and familiarity.
ReplyDeleteBTW, the idea of Charlie being above Sam in Dean's pecking order makes me roll on the floor laughing for the sheer absurdity of it.
BTW, the idea of Charlie being above Sam in Dean's pecking order makes me roll on the floor laughing for the sheer absurdity of it.
ReplyDeleteOh agree with the ridiculousness of it, even the the sparkles of Charlie (pass me a bucket) but this is also a set of writers that had Sam say he hated that Dean turned to Benny and Cas instead of him. Dean lashing out saying he'd rather Sam was dead instead of Charlie is just Dean lashing out the worse way he can without resorting to violence.
Good good review. The thing with the Sam v Dean in the "unforgivable" sweeps, is that the nurse who was possessed in Lucifer Rising was a HUMAN Sam could've exorcised her but didn't, in order to keep a demon blood bag. They STILL have given Dean an out, because while maybe original Original Flavor Dean would not have killed the kid, it was arguable for him to do so. We KNOW the kid really wanted out, but Cyrus (Silas?) was a weak character in the classic sense, he'd go along with whoever held the whip. (Another commenter brought up Carl killing Woodbury Kid on The Walking Dead; it was like here ambiguous whether Carl was right; Hershel was shocked but I noticed Hershel did not try to intervene either. Both those kids were armed.)
ReplyDeleteAlso, I am unsure if the Stynes had some supernatural mojo going on; they had to have SOME "supernatural" knowledge to have been in control of The Book of the Dead for about 150 years, but it appeared Eldon at least had no respect for whatever was in the Bunker. Wouldn't he have wanted to take the books and all the "stuff" (the Spear of Destiny at least) back to Shreveport? (ADDED: I think it would've worked better if they had been in a small town NEAR Shreveport. The two officers (?) appeared to me to be small town sheriffs, not actual policemen, like in a good size city like Shreveport would have.) I also laughed and laughed at Dean listening to Eldon pontificate and then just shooting him in the head. Laughed and laughed.
So are/were the Stynes part of the portfolio of our Supernatural sheriffs? They made themselves "supernatural" by going after the Book so I would say Dean had every reason to go after them. Again, I think they gave Sam a "true" Crisis moment and gave Dean an "ambiguous" Crisis moment.
I "did" feel bad for Kid Styne, just because we saw he wasn't a true believer, but in reality he was just a whiney teenager, no hero himself (kind of like Jake Spoon in the original Lonesome Dove, he'd be part of whatever group he belonged to, in the middle, and in the end earned his hanging).
I was also unhappy with Dean mouthing off at Sam, but it also felt like he felt Sam should've been the one protecting Charlie, not dicking around lying to Dean, just OWN IT. Sam shouldn't have left confused-by-human-relations Castiel in charge of the two "experts" if he had just TOLD Dean, taken the hit THEN, Charlie would've had an actual protector who knew how to communicate with her.
Lastly: did Crowley spare Sam because he found out Dean was NOT involved in the hit? I was not sure. Was Rowena's hex bag actually meant to end Crowley having "human" blood in his, or was it actually meant to kill him? I think it was too roundabout to be the former but I am willing to bet she will at some point CLAIM she did it to make Fair-gus a proper demon again (but then we don't know if she knew about the partial cure -- and if they WANT Fair-gus back to semi-bad not evil all they gotta do is what they did before. Was glad to see the preview in which Crowley is helping "save" Dean.
I have this theory that the only way Dean can get cured of the Mark of Cain is for it to be transferred on someone else and Sam is going to choose himself as the one the Mark will be transferred on. Then Season 11 will be about Sam dealing with how the Mark taps into his darkness.
ReplyDeleteIs it usual for Castiel to bleed? I mean he's full on Angel now he's got his mojo back so it's hard to hurt the fellow unless he's bladed. He's a warrior from God and Dean's not even full on demon yet so for him to bloody Castiel was a bit huh for me.
ReplyDeleteI really hope the next episode wraps up the Mark of Cain-storyline, very tired of it now.
ReplyDeleteYeah, the bully kid used for Eldon's arm COULD reasonably be argued by the police to have run away due to Cyrus' insults/come back during the original confrontation. The cops said, he was embarrassed, kids think that is the end of the world, he'll be back and tell the parents to wait for him to contact them.
ReplyDeleteGreat review. I like your analogy of the white and dark knight. I loved the Castiel of this episode. The way he approached Dean was heroic and focused squarely on him, and Castiel forfeited his own needs to do so.
ReplyDeleteI have read other complaints about the bullying sequence in the beginning, but this one was a little different. I don't know if Teen Styne had been surgically enhanced or not, but he was not frightened or even a little intimidated. He seemed annoyed and contemptuous to me. Teen Styne wasn't weak; he had a heart. I liked him. I understand why Dean killed him, but I wish he hadn't. I don't believe the child would have been a threat. Did you notice that the bullies looked inbred? I wish Hollywood would get over this prejudice toward the South.
Regarding the Stynes and their kidnappings, they also suffocated people in public. What was that about being successful through stealth? Natural selection should have been at work in the younger generation.
I think complaint #2 may earn you some grief from the comment section. What? It's okay to maim and kill but not to hurt his brother's feelings? I think the problem is the wording of your complaint, and I agree with you. To stay on board with a devolving character, they have to remain LIKABLE. They aren't heroes if they can't rise above the everyday pettiness of being human. That makes them too much like us. Sam's words got him into more trouble last year than if he had punched Dean in the face. The same goes for Dean.
I can't get on board with you about Sam. Carver has destroyed his character for me. His turnabout in season 8 was never explained, and this one hasn't been, either. They haven't helped us understand Sam's motives in any of the last three seasons. He's a enigma but not the kind that makes for good storytelling.
Oh man I hope that does not happen. I really hope that doesn't happen. After the Mark is done with Dean. Let's move on. We've dealt with Sam's darkness plenty over the years.
ReplyDeleteWhen Cain transferred the mark to Dean, he retained his mark. There's no reason to believe transference would rid Dean of the mark.
ReplyDelete"I was also unhappy with Dean mouthing off at Sam, but it also felt like he felt Sam should've been the one protecting Charlie, not dicking around lying to Dean, just OWN IT. Sam shouldn't have left confused-by-human-relations Castiel in charge of the two "experts" if he had just TOLD Dean, taken the hit THEN, Charlie would've had an actual protector who knew how to communicate with her"
ReplyDeleteYou don't need to understand someone to protect them. By all accounts angel beats human. Cas protecting her makes more sense than Sam. I'm so over people trying to put Charlie's death on Sam. It's wasn't his fault.
"BTW, the idea of Charlie being above Sam in Dean's pecking order makes
ReplyDeleteme roll on the floor laughing for the sheer absurdity of it."
That's one way to look at it - that Dean is thinking "I loved Charlie more than you, so I wich you had died instead of her". Another way would be "She paid for your mistakes and I wish you had paid for them instead."
It is a scary but completely foreseeable line the police could take.
ReplyDeleteAs Cyrus says the bully was obviously trying to be something he was not. Does smack of something not being right at home and so the kid ran away after the confrontation.
Hell the Stynes' wouldn't have to pay off the cops for that one.
You're possibly right. I just thought that would the kind of twist the show would do, especially since I heard the Mark of Cain story will continue into next season.
ReplyDeleteAnd people wonder why I do not watch this show anymore. I just sick and tired of Carver's Treatment of Sam for the last 3 season and by the look of the Rating so does everybody else. The Rating Suck and Who's to blame for that?
ReplyDeleteI am sorry if I made it sound that "I" blamed Sam for Charlie's death.
ReplyDeleteI read what you said about Castiel, but FROM THE EPISODE it seemed to me that Castiel was ill-equipped to deal with the drama between Rowena and Charlie. And the fact he could not "handle" it led to Charlie running out (a stupid, stupid, STUPID move on her part).
I "think" what Dean was saying was that since he got Charlie into the BOTD translating he should've been the one to stay and protect her. LEAVE Dean (I'm busy I can't come now) or just TELL Dean and have the fight THEN. Dean was mad about SAM not staying with Charlie. He did say a rotten thing though, BUT it didn't (in the episode itself) appear to really bother Sam, just that Sam knew Dean was venting. Heck, Sam wasn't even telling Castiel he was upset about Dean going after the Stynes. Just, Oh Dean is going off to settle the Styne issue, ladida. Of course, then he DID send Castiel off to "check" on Dean, but it sure was convenient that Castiel got there right after all the Stynes "that was home" got "settled." (I did not get much urgency in that regard at all.)
Transferring the MOC doesnt solve the problem of having thr MOC though does it, I dont know why you think thats the path the writers are going to take but I couldnt agree less. Other than the fact that the writers being willing to take an MOC Sam darker than they would ever think to take Saint Dean the whole story would be an epic waste of time. It was boring this season not to mention an poor mans version of the brilliantly told Demon Blood storyline, how would it suddenly be interesting next season with a new Mark wearer? Nope dont see it happening.
ReplyDeleteIt could be just enough to clean up after the finale. The Demon Dean storyline only lasted three episodes. I read recently that from the beginning of the season, they are focusing on the mid-season finale. I think that's why the finales often get such unsatisfying resolutions.
ReplyDeleteKerinda, I think this season has shown the most loving "present" Sam since Season Seven (after he got his soul back, He Wasn't Leaving His Brother Alone Out There) and I appreciate how Sam has tried (sometimes making mistakes but honestly tried) to "be with" Dean in all ways. I think he has over-reacted but I don't fault him for fearing what Dean could become. I mean, they go on dangerous Hunts, Dean could die during any Hunt and become a demon and start killing civilians. THAT is a really reasonable response to the MOC, for me anyway.
ReplyDeleteSam has come across as a loving brother, concerned, wanting to help his brother. Sorry if you don't get that from all our conversations.
As for Dean, I did not take his actions as the Mark taking over, but
ReplyDeletethat Dean was accessing the powers of the Mark to do what he planned on
doing, and by wiping out the Stynes, the Mark was coming forward more. I
did not see that it had yet taken Dean over, even at the end.Yeah, Dean was driven by anger and rage; which he has always had inside him (and a lot of it) but not revenge.
I don't think the Mark works like that - by "taking over". The Mark wants Dean to kill people, it doesn't care who he kills or why. I think the Mark takes the anger and the bloodlust already there and raises them to such level that other consideration that would normally keep those things in check seem insignificant.
I don't think the question is whether Dean would've gone after the Stynes - he would've done it either way - the question is whether the way he did it was uncharacteristic of him. He went in without caring if the Stynes might get a lucky shot in and turn him into a demon again, he didn't take Sam with him for backup and he refused to consider Cyrus' plea of innocence. I think that all this does indicate Dean being not completely himself.
I dont want to see Dark Sam again either, its been done he's moved on so lets all just move on too. Besides JC has proved that he is incapable of writing a Dark Dean and cant write for Sam full stop so I would rather they never even try with Sam.
ReplyDeleteThey wouldn't have to pay off the cops because the cops are already in their pocket.
ReplyDeleteSam is as responsible/at fault for Charlie as Dean is for Kevin. I think thats what the writers are going for, I think most fans get it... well a certain section of the fandom will never get it but thats not the writers fault. They cant control fandom bias.
ReplyDeleteIt was interesting to me the way the Show portrayed the dynamic of the bullying. The tattooed kid was obviously trying to get "cred" with the other two cretins with him, Cyrus one-upped him. BOTH of them in a way were diminished. (I hope I am writing this understandably.) I actually felt sympathy for BOTH characters. Tattooed Bully who gets murdered (and the family actually thinking it would be "better" for Cyrus to kill somebody he had already had problems with) and Weak-Sauce Cyrus (who I saw was in an untenable situation with his family, and even feared running would get him killed; his family had magic compasses!) who if they had left him home, probably would've stayed hiding in his room when Dean got there to "sort things out" so would've survived probably EXCEPT he was setting to burn Dean's HOME down with Stupid Cousin Eldon.
ReplyDeleteJust,
ReplyDeleteOh Dean is going off to settle the Styne issue, ladida. Of course,
then he DID send Castiel off to "check" on Dean, but it sure was
convenient that Castiel got there right after all the Stynes "that was
home" got "settled." (I did not get much urgency in that regard at
all.)
Sam sent Cas to make sure that Dean didn't go too far off the reservation. He knows that the more Dean kills, the stronger the Mark's hold gets and that progress needed to be checked.
True, but any corrupt cop worth his salt would be expecting a little extra to cover up a murder.
ReplyDeleteBut if there is a reasonable explanation for the disappearance there is no reason for the Stynes' to have to top up the retainer. Because the cops would have to prove the Stynes' did it before asking for the extra cash.
So that's what you meant - I just thought that you hadn't figured out that the Stynes had the cops working for them.
ReplyDeleteI am upvoting you for the comment on Tattooed Bully and his Cretinous Buddies: why are there no genteel or at least not drooling Southerners ever shown on (most) shows. It's like for a while the quickest way to show somebody was a hypocrite was to make them religious. Hello, SOME people are religious, and not hypocrites (not on this show; I liked the priest and the nun on Paint It Black, they were good people; and for all we know, not having heard the two confessions of the men previously, they were dealing with LUST not actual INFIDELITY).
ReplyDeleteYeah, I know he sent Castiel, but it didn't seem to have much urgency to me. Just go check. He DID send Cas, but it wasn't, HURRY FIND DEAN BEFORE HE KILLS AGAIN. But that may be my emphasis under the situation.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the feedback. :)
ReplyDeleteI think the MoC story was the only story that was interesting this year. Unfortunately, it ended up not being a story; just background noise while the season focused on anyone else they could dream up. We are basically getting a 3-episode story, because nothing happened from Dean's massacre of Randy and Co., which kicked it off this season, up until Charlie died with the repercussions playing out in two episodes. All we heard was "Dean is getting worse," but Dean looked like he was doing better than he did in S9 up until this episode -- and even at that, I didn't think he looked out of control.
ReplyDeleteThe MoC thing has now run 1.5 years, but all the potential it had to be a great arc for the brothers, all was wasted. For that reason, I would just as soon it be over on Wednesday.
Fazzie, get with the program. I thought we agreed it was Randy and the Rapists quite some time ago. (Well, that was the name I had for the deceased persons who made the mistake of hitting Dean on the head and then KICKING him in the head in the midseason finale.) I think that is a cool name.
ReplyDeleteI'm still not sure why Crowley spared Sam. Maybe he is collecting favors - like when he saved Cas in episode 3. Maybe he doesn't want an MoC powered Dean coming after him. Maybe he sees a little of himself in Sam - another person Rowena manipulated into doing her dirty work - and didn't want to give her satisfaction. Or maybe, despite his proclamation, he is still trying to be "good".
ReplyDeleteRowena's hex-bag works by making the demon puke out the black smoke essence in a liquid-gas form. As we know, Crowley's essence is reddish in color - and I think that's what he was throwing up, not the residual human blood.
And I'm sure Rowena would try some excuse the very next episode.
"Oh please, if I wanted you dead you would be. I knew the hex-bag wouldn't work on you. I wanted to show you how easily these Winchesters would betray you because you are my son and I can't bear to see what a pathetic loser you've become because of them. I did it all out of love."
That would be a terrible idea. Besides, as we saw with Cain, transferring the Mark doesn't get rid of it.
ReplyDeleteI got the cops were working for the Stynes' when they pulled over Dean and attacked Baby.
ReplyDeleteWait - did Dean kill the cops? I didn't see that happening.
ReplyDeleteI understood what you were saying but was anticipating the reaction you may get from some. It's important that the character remain somehow sympathetic. Kicking someone while they are down makes them a dick. If Dean were played by a lesser actor, he would be irredeemable.
ReplyDeleteI don't think they died, Dean may have been on a rampage but killing cops in their own station would have been stupid.
ReplyDeleteHowever beating the crap out of them so humiliating them may not have been out of Dean's mood.
I kind of figured that the sheriff surviving was the reason that Monroe had the small army with assault rifles ready on the stair case. He'd had a call to say Dean was on his way.
You know there has to be a trope for that. HaHa!
ReplyDeleteDeep South
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeepSouth
This is not quite fit for Benny.
Southern Gentleman
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SouthernGentleman
You can't link here?
You think Dean went room by room looking for Stynes to kill? I don't know. I had a vision of Cyrus sitting in his room, playing PSE. Dean was using a silencer but the Stynes appeared to have regular automatic guns; he might've heard them shooting BACK but it appears Dean moved very quickly to take everybody out. Again I don't know. Would he have searched out Cyrus if he had been spending the evening at the Library? Nah.
ReplyDeleteIt looked to me: first cop who actually HIT Baby's lights was STUPID when he went to get the pens, Dean knocked him down held him with his thighs (HOTHOTHOT) and then stomped him. Maybe he was unconscious, I thought the last stomp killed him,
ReplyDeleteBoss cop was not shot, I thought he was hit and (my words) "stopped from interfering" again. Dean went to the Stynes. I don't think he left the sheriff "behind him" to call the Stynes.
Neither cop mentioned by Stynes, Sheriff "called" us you had left the station. Nothing. I drew the inference that Dean killed everybody involved. But you are right, they did not show him shooting the cops and they did not show a sickening crunch if he broke their necks. I think he did; you think he left them to be Styne allies in the near future. To me that was not Dean's mindset . But I agree I am arguing my opinion not my "facts."
I think Crowley LIKED being a CRD, enjoyed leading people to making the deal. The cook seemed to be a nice "with it" guy, didn't he? Proud of his work and enjoying the life he was leading. Would he sell his soul for a trip to China? I didn't think so, but Crowley was just getting started.
ReplyDeleteIf Cyrus was in the compound and Dean found him then I would say that he would be dead as I said. If he had gone to the library to study so was out then no.
ReplyDeleteBecause Cas said he found about a dozen bodies, he didn't say he found anyone alive so Dean swept that compound in some manner. It is possible that Dean did go room to room to see if he could find any Stynes after the first few died and the rest scattered. If so and he'd have been there, I doubt Cyrus would have had a chance to beg for his life before Dean killed him even if he just had a PSE controller in his hand.
The there is the third option - Dean found a roster with all the family members' names and photos on it and decided to cross them out one by one. I mean, he wouldn't want to miss killing a Styne who just happened to be out getting pizza.
ReplyDeleteThank you for having such a balanced view. My own opinion is that he might've simply beaten them up and left them unconscious and cuffed. I don't think that they were in any condition to warn the Stynes and Monroe figured that Dean was coming when the Sheriff failed to show up with him in handcuffs. Dean had no personal vendetta against them nor they against him - they were just "doing their job" and would probably let it go once their employers were dead.
ReplyDeleteNeither cop needed to be mentioned by the Stynes, but the Stynes were prepared for Dean's arrival so where did they get the intel?
ReplyDeleteThe cops seem the best place for it otherwise the Stynes would have found out Dean was coming for them when they turned up to collect him from the police.
As for killing two dim witted cops. Personally I think Dean wouldn't think it was worth his time killing them.
Though did like the pen thing. Dean kind of pulling off a youTube cat going 'f*ck that thing' whenever anything is placed infront of him.
Wonder if they came up with that after they did the clip of Jensen and Misha re enacting the jerk cat in the cupboard?
He had the opportunity and was going to make a deal with the waiter. Crowley is a salesman; he likes making deals. As for that being at a diner, just the way the writer wanted to scene to be -- something different than that atrocious Hell with the ugly throne.
ReplyDeleteWatching is a choice we all make, and I have thoroughly enjoyed Sam this season -- for the first time in a good number of years.
ReplyDeleteWell they did disturb his pizza run, that would be fair.
ReplyDeleteBut would the Stynes keep a family photo roll call, you know they could swap faces. It would get confusing.
I am not sure why Crowley spared Sam either, but Crowley does like Dean and I'm sure he doesn't want MoC Dean coming after him. It may be that next season Crowley asks Sam for a favor, too -- although I seriously doubt any writer/showrunner has even come up with ideas for next season. It's open though.
ReplyDeleteNo, I don't think Dean was completely himself and he knew he could not be killed. He called on the powers as he needed to, and I think that was his plan. In other words, it was a rational decision on Dean's part. He did ask Sam, "Does it matter," whether it was the Moc talking or Dean talking.
ReplyDeleteDean has reached his limit with everything. He suffered another loss and the ones he loves betrayed him again. He has just had it up to his eyeballs. It's the first time that the audience knows that Dean does need to be saved from himself.
This is an awesome and spectacular episode, with an amazing and wonderful DEAN!!! Also Castiel, Sam and Crowley are incredible!!
ReplyDeleteIMO, the whole scene was unnecessary if that was all there was to it. They could've shown Crowley showing up directly at the basement and it wouldn't have made a difference. So, unless it was there to pad the episode, I keep thinking there must be some greater significance to it.
ReplyDeleteAll the more reason to keep an updated photo roll call - so that every Styne can consult and memorize it before coming home for Christmas. It'd save a lot of awkward family re-introductions.
ReplyDeleteI would say it was the only story that had interesting potential. For me, that potential was never realized. It was not good last year and downright awful this year. I would hope they would be planning a new story for next season.
ReplyDeleteAgree!! The episode was a truly good one in the sense of tension and suspense. I for one actually wanted Dean to stab Cas, because it would truly show Dean has gone off truly and cannot be brought back easily and if brought back it is a beautiful point to build on with the guilt of what he did. I have been hoping since the season started that the Mark would remain on Dean for the foreseeable future I am not sure why I like the idea so much but I really do not like the thought of Dean just being Rid of the Mark with no real consequences or changes. Like Sam when the wall broke in his mind, I remember reading that they were going to keep that permanent and then by the end of the season he was magically healed. I really wish they did more with the Stynes or a different take on the Stynes. Whatever Death is back next week my favourite character ever on Super so I am glad and hopefully the finale will be better than last years!!
ReplyDelete"No, I don't think Dean was completely himself and he knew he could not be killed."
ReplyDeleteThat's the problem - Dean knows he can't be killed, but he can be turned into a demon - all it'd take is one Styne getting lucky. Right now, Dean is acting like an addict - "I am in control", "I can stop whenever I want", "I'm using it but it hasn't taken over me". Normally, Dean would be too worried about the Mark taking to use its power so casually and setting aside his feelings of betrayal and taking Sam with him to watch his back would've been the rational thing to do. If Dean no longer cares whether its him talking or the Mark, then that means he is no longer fully himself.
The Stynes can get away with abducting and harvesting the teenager because as was mentioned earlier in the episode they own the town and have the police in their pockets.
ReplyDeleteThe Shreveport Stynes may have been all killed, but as was said in "Dark Dynasty", the Stynes are all over the world. There are more of them out there.
ReplyDeleteCrowely was eating a pie, and pie is typically a harbinger of something "bad" about to happen. In this case, it was Crowley going back to his old self.
ReplyDeleteI do hope we don't see them next season. And there can be several easy justifications for that.
ReplyDelete1. Dean was only interested in killing the Shreveport Stynes - the ones who ordered Charlie's death. Afterwards he tells Rudy all about the Styne family and Rudy updates other hunters. Word gets around and given that the only reason the Styne family survived so long was because of secrecy, the other hunters make a quick work of them.
2. The Shreveport Stynes were the main family branch who hoarded all the best harvests and kept all the magical secrets for themselves - only sharing those with other members when there was a job to be done. With them gone, most of the other Stynes - who never even got an upgrade - are no different than other humans. The family name fades into obscurity, its secrets lost forever.
3. Monroe Styne gathered all the upgraded family members in Shreveport - maybe he was shoring up his strength to go after the Book, maybe because he knew that a dangerous man with the MoC was coming for him or maybe because he was about to get an influx of new magical knowledge and wanted to share - whatever the reason, he gathered all the members who are in on the family secret and Dean killed them all.
4. They could be like Leviathans - take out the head and the rest flounder. They become such a pointless threat after that (not that they were that threatening to begin with) that they simply never show up or are cleaned out in between seasons.
5. They get so freaked out by one man taking out their best and brightest that they decide to go deep, deep underground for a century or so.
I'm fine with any of these excuses.
*Finally my persistent problems with Rowena came to a head this episode. Rowena is a throwaway character in every sense of the word, but mostly because everything she did on the show could have been done by Crowley. If they had changed the story in a way that eliminated Rowena entirely and used Crowley in her place two things would have happened: we would have been spared her long scenes and pointless dialogues (about the coven and her rival witches) which amounted to nothing, and Crowley’s presence would have had more meaning on the show. As it was, Rowena's disjointed storyline only served to make Sam and Castiel look like morons, and Crowley look like a sad orphan, nostalgic for something he never had in canon in the first place. And yes, I know Crowley was supposed getting in touch with his newly awakened human side. It's just that Rowena never seemed to have anything to do with his humanity as she mostly focused on his ego, greed and pride.*
ReplyDeleteShe is definitely a throw away character! Even though Ruth Connell is really trying her best to improve the character, Rowena really doesn't serve much of a purpose in the story. I get the feeling that she was supposed to play a bigger part, but the writers changed their play half way through the season and decided that they didn't need her character anymore. There was this huge build up with the Grand Coven, almost every episode after she was introduced had spoken about it at least once, so it got everyone thinking that there would be this huge showdown with all these witches. But nope, the only thing we find is that Rowena seeks revenge on them, and finds that they were all wiped out by the Men of Letters.... another effin plot that went nowhere!!!!!!
To be honest, they did a great job of bringing out Crowley's human side last season and they really didn't need to turn it into a huge story. Even then, if that was the direction they wanted to take, why not use Gavin???? He brought out Crowley's humanity in just half an episode! This is probably heading towards fan fic territory here, but I would have loved to see them combine Crowley and Castiel's story by having Claire and Gavin as a couple. Totally eliminating Rowena and instead focus on Crowley's relationship with Gavin, having Crowley feel guilty for how he treated Gavin. Now that I think of it, isn't that already Castiel's problem with Claire, or similar to it??? See?? They could combine it and have Cass and Crowley learning to deal with Gavin and Claire being a couple.
There was no need in creating a character who's only existence up to this point was uttered in two lines! If she survives the next episode, I really hope they at least do more with her character in the next season. She had a good story going when she was introduced so hopefully they develop her a bit better.
I perceived the young stein character as a young sam who didn't want to be part of the family business. So is this a foreshadow that Sam is going to die or something bad is going to happen to him in the finale. Thoughts?
ReplyDeleteThe parallel was laid down pretty thick, but all I could conclude from that was this guy would end up in the family business after all, just like Sam did and there really is no escaping what's in our blood. So, Dean was justified in killing him. Making him like Sam was probably the only way to create a sympathetic Styne in such a short time. And we needed a sympathetic Styne to kill in order to show Dean's descent.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, maybe he wasn't all that much like Sam after all. Take out the "I don't want to be in the family business" part and the only thing common with Sam would be a little bit of nerdiness. This guy was planning on running away from his family, Sam walked out with his head held high. Sam loved his family despite walking out on them, this guy, apparently, didn't. Sam didn't try to sabotage the family business because he knew what they were doing was the right thing - he just didn't want to be a part of it. Cyrus knows what the family is doing is wrong and wants no part in it - but he also doesn't seem to care about stopping them. Young Sam was openly rebellious, Cyrus was passive-aggressive.
Given all these differences, I don't see how their fates could be tied together at all. Cyrus died decrying his family and trying to save himself - if Sam dies in the finale, I'm sure he'll sacrifice himself trying to save his brother. So no, I don't think his fate foreshadows anything.
See my response to lala2 above. I think Dean is now isolated himself from everyone, feeling they betrayed him again and caused another loss of another friend. I do think Dean is being reckless and doesn't care at the moment as long as he gets the job done. As we saw in the preview for the finale, Dean summons Death to stop himself, IMO. That means he must be aware that he needs to stop from becoming what he doesn't want to be, which means he still has limits, still has control, and is still capable of governing his choices as to what he does and doesn't do, and that means Sam and Cas are still misjudging Dean's strength of will and the urgency of the situation.
ReplyDeleteI'll provide a suitably lengthy response to your other post, but I see Dean's self-imposed isolation here as an effect of the Mark, not the result of being betrayed or losing a friend.
ReplyDeleteThere are two types of secrets his friends and family keep from him - ones where they know what they are doing is wrong and are too ashamed of what Dean might think and the ones which are in service of saving him or atleast, not burdening him. Dean feels betrayed and hurt when the secrets are of the former kind, but lets it go pretty easily in the latter case. For example, Sam's attempts to undo his deal, Bobby keeping Sam's return from him, Sam hiding his various ailments - these things have no lasting effect on their relationship. Other things, like consorting with demons, do.
Here, Sam was keeping secrets to find a way to help Dean - so under normal circumstances, while Dean might be angry for a while he'd let it go pretty easily and not use it as an excuse to walk away. The Mark, however, is making him angrier than he should be which would explain his reaction.
You talk about Dean being reckless and not caring - well, normally he would care, because he already knows what the consequences would be. I think that Dean is overestimating the amount of control he has and his limits are much closer than he believes them to be - and that, I believe, is another effect of the mark (the same way Sam kept underestimating his reliance on the demon blood). I think that Dean will have a moment of clarity - one where he'll realize how close he has come to becoming a demon again and that's when he'll choose to stop himself - but as of now, all of his judgments are being clouded by the Mark.
I get it! but I do not see it this season here has not been a story line for Sam and been about Dean and that Damn MOC that should have been gone midseason and the whole Sam lying to Dean about trying too get that thing off of him I am tried of the lying again and now Charlie is dead who are they blameing for her death? I am happy you like how Sam is right now Ok but sometimes he thrown under the bus sometimes and I can not watch that as a fan its suck too see someone on this show gets the treatment that he gets. You now its going to backfire on him and all the hate is going too happen again just like what that happen in season 8 an that what hurt.
ReplyDeleteI'll try to be as brief as possible.
ReplyDeleteYou expected MoC storyline to provide Dean with some resolution regarding his inner demons - specifically, his low self-worth and self-esteem issues. I didn't see it going that way at all - not even a little bit. Those issues are so ingrained into his personality that it'd take a lot more than an external plot device - especially one demonic in origin - to resolve them. The way I saw it, Dean got the Mark as a way of assisted suicide - he didn't want to survive long, but he wanted to take out as many evil things as fast as possibile before he died. And despite his claims to Sam to the contrary (about wanting to get rid of it and wanting a vacation), he is still okay with that end. The purpose of the Mark itself, as I see it, was to have Dean go down the dark road and let Sam be the one to save him - thus giving Sam the sorely needed character development. The best character growth to be expected for Dean from this would be returning from his extreme self-loathing to a more manageable level of low self-esteem
About Dean loving hunting - I believe he went back to appreciating that life in season 8 after purgatory. I don't think he has lost that. He carries around a lot of guilt that makes him think that he might not deserve to live - but as long as he is alive, he'd live to hunt and enjoy it. As for assuaging his guilt, I don't see how a demonic rage drug is supposed to help him assuage that.
About losses - yes, he has had many and every loss makes him feel guiltier - whether its his fault or not. Again, this is something too deeply ingrained to be changed by the Mark.
I spoke about betrayal below and my argument is the same here. Right now, Dean's isolation is the result of what the Mark is making him feel, not because of Sam and Cas's betrayal.
My conclusions about the Mark also remain the same - Dean is not as much in control nor as far from his limits as he thinks. Right now, he is acting like an addict - in denial about the hold the Mark has on him. The potential of the story, IMO, has always been in Dean's trip down the dark side and Sam's commitment to saving him - which they ruined by not making him darker and failing to convey the urgency of the situation - but as for Character Development, I don't see Dean ever being any better than he was in Seasons 6, 8 or early season 9.
"Maybe that bit at the beginning was Dabb simply cleaning up after Thompson."
ReplyDeleteHey now, last week was NOT a Thompson episode, it was Buckleming.
Well, at least Charlie knew what she was getting into, and she had protection. Kevin was completely unaware of the danger he was in. I think that Sam and Dean set the events of Charlie and kevin's deaths in motion and both bear some responsibility, but IMO Dean more than Sam.
ReplyDeletePersonally with the way they've wrecked the Sam character since Carver took over I don't blame Dean for saying what he did unfortunately it won't be Dean but the effect of the Mark and of course saintly Sam will once again have Dean apologizing to him instead of telling him off for the stupidity he showed. I'm so tired of Carver Sam's perfect and it's always Dean's fault crap. I'm so over the soap opera crap. Can Carver just give us a good story instead of trash he's given us the last 3 seasons.
ReplyDeleteI agree with all of this, especially with the writers not making Dean darker. If they were so afraid of Dean appearing unsympathetic, they shouldn't have given him an evil taint that is supposed to make him evil! Demon Dean was bland and MOC Dean was absent most of the season. Even last episode, Dean was going after bad guys only. Of course, he killed Amy the monster for killing bad guys too, so...
ReplyDeleteAnother way would be "She paid for your mistakes and I wish you had paid for them instead."I have a problem with this too, namely the price Dean presumes needs to be paid and being completely unmoved by it's implications. That's OOC for Dean.
ReplyDeleteThat may be the whole point - Dean is acting OOC.
ReplyDeleteMaybe I watch too many detective shows but it seems if the murder is reported and investigated it always somehow leads to the culprit. Considering the Stynes were at it for ages at least one of those murders had to lead to them. They may have had a fool proof backup strategy but we weren't shown.
ReplyDeleteOf course since the real Dean would never shoot an innocent boy or beat his best friend bloody. But he would stop short of killing said best friend, and IMO refuse to suggest such a horrific thing to Sam. Even OOCness has some limits.
ReplyDeleteSo the limit you set for OOCness is not shooting an innocent boy or beating his best friend bloody but being nasty to Sam? Shouldn't it be the other way around?
ReplyDeleteWe were shown their fool-proof backup strategy - having the investigating cops under their thumbs.
ReplyDeleteI agree about Rowena, she is a legend in her own mind. She has the power of a "real" witch but there is no subtlety to her. Like the runes on her body which were supposed to kill Dean, and the hexbag that was supposed to kill Crowley (and I will bet you dollars to donuts that she will claim NEXT week that the "attempt on Crowley's life" was NEVER supposed to actually kill him, it was to blah blah blah BLAH) what has she actually succeeded at? Small potato cons, staying in good hotels and eating at good restaurants for free.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking, "About time, Dean," and figured it was the writers' plan to give Dean a Purge speech so the brothers are even now.But that's exactly my problem. I hear this from other fans too. What I think is, two wrongs won't make a right. Yes, Dean took a lot of crap from S8&9 Sam, but that doesn't mean they both have to be dragged to that level. What Carver did to Sam in those seasons was wrong and thankfully he seems to be fixing it this season. I don't need to worry about Dean now. Sam not looking for Dean, telling him they aren't family, Dean telling Sam it was better he died instead of Charlie... all BS that should have never made it from script to screen because it's OOC and damages the established canon that these two love each other very deep down.
ReplyDeleteGreat points about Dean killing the kid, and I love it that you brought up The Walking Dead, cause that's one show which I love it's ambiguity. Here's how I see normal Dean vs. MOC Dean dealing with the kid. The kid is a potential killer. He hasn't committed a crime yet but no one can be sure he won't in the future. Normal Dean would put his compassion and value for a human life over eliminating a potential villain and over his grudge against his family. MOC Dean however won't because the mark blocks that morality and care for human life. Both these are acceptable, though the second one makes us worry and want to return Dean's humanity back to him.
ReplyDeleteI gave up on that one last season when they showed a beaten and bloody angel recount an incident where a room full of angels was attacked by demons and they were all left looking like bloody human corpses.
ReplyDeleteAs I said to another comment, they probably realized they needed to fix Sam first by showing his caring, selfless side, then engage him in his own storyline. For the past 4-5 seasons Sam has had been busy with one crazy storyline after another and it left very little room for him to show us his humanity. Giving him some time off and some space to focus on someone else for a change, so we could see his nurturing side is the right move ATM. Hopefully next season they use this new Sam in a more involved storyline and we end up caring about him more because we've seen him capable of caring for others.
ReplyDeleteQuick gripe about Crowley - what the hell was he doing in the diner, complimenting the waiter on Coffee? Was there some bigger significance to that scene?This is what I mean in gripe #3. Since Rowena has been the one dealing with the Winchesters this season Crowley has lost his purpose on the show, yet they have to keep him around, so they stick him into pointless scenes such as this one.
ReplyDeleteWhat about the FBI? You kill enough people in a small town and eventually those guys come aknocking.
ReplyDeleteJudging by the general consensus, no one will take that bet.
ReplyDeleteI heard that it was a Twin Peaks reference. Cherry pie and coffee in a diner??? I could be wrong though. Not the first time SPN has done subtle winks to other shows so not surprising lol
ReplyDeleteFew points to note here:
ReplyDelete1. Killing locals seems to be more of an exception than the rule. This bully was captured as a "teachable" moment for Cyrus. I doubt that the Stynes go around killing everyone who gets in their face - that would be monumentally stupid.
2. We do know that they set up shop to harvest elsewhere regularly - like Eldon did in Omaha.
3. They don't leave a body behind when they harvest - so most of the harvests would be missing persons cases and not murders.
4. They could always rely on the local cops to "solve" the case and come up with a reasonable explanation.
5. We don't know how many harvests they actually do per year. Human body parts don't run out that easily. So if they stick to just 2 or 3 per year in a small town, that number won't draw any attention from FBI.
Hey, here's a crazy idea - instead of making the story about one brother or the other, how about they make it about both of them? It can't be that hard.
ReplyDeleteWhich one was this?
ReplyDeleteSurely he had some moments, right? Like his desperation to get back to helping Dean in season 6 finale? Or convincing Cas when Dean had given up? Even his reasons for taking on the trials instead of Dean were rather well presented.Agree with all, except the trials. That storyline IMO was a mess, especially when Sam's logical, meaningful reasons for doing them instead of Dean (I would want to live while you'd want to die,) went out the window because in the end all of a sudden he too, inexplicably wanted to die.Let me insert a gripe here - I'm okay with Sam making mistakes in order to save Dean, but I'd rather that he was making those mistakes out of desperation than stupidity.absolutely agree and that was one of my gripes in the episode they showed him talk to Rowena.Another gripe here - despite not fighting back, Cas shouldn't have been beaten down like that. This is something we have seen in the past - when a human hits a fully charged angel, all he accomplishes is to hurt himself.Yes, 100% yes, but Carver's angel mythology has no base or consistency and has been changing since season 8. I'm not expecting anything from the original mythology to be upheld. Heck we had demons beat angels bloody on his watch. This at least is MOC Dean.My one gripe here is that all the "villainous" Stynes were taken out a little too easily, while the only "good" one had the time to appreciate the full horror of what he was facing and died begging for his life.I actually had this as my Stynes gripe but it changed because God, there was so much about them that didn't work. But my initial gripe was that the Stynes were as uninspired in their death as they were in their life. They didn't even put up a fight. Dean could have sneezed on them and they would've fallen over.It was made pretty clear that Stynes had the local law-enforcement in their pockets. Again it takes more than having the local cops in one's pocket to erase a long trail of murders. They should have done something like Daredevil and maybe show a smug, clever lawyer stroll into different crime scenes and police stations and flaunt his clients' rights. That might have made me believe in the almighty powers of the Stynes and that their free reign was due to their immense resources not the collective dumbness of the law enforcement including the federal variety.
ReplyDeleteYou mean like seasons 1-5? Yeah, not that hard, but you'd need better writers.
ReplyDeletePersonally with the way they've wrecked the Sam character since Carver took over I don't blame Dean for saying what he did.As I said in reply to another comment, two wrongs won't make a right. Sure Sam has dealt low blows to Dean. In fact in a reverse scenario last season (cause the show likes to repeat itself,) he told Dean they weren't family, which raised my eyebrows as high as Dean's words did this episode. However this shouldn't be the case for either of them. Just as Cas would not touch the Winchesters even in his darkest moments, and Bobby wouldn't disown them no matter how much they mess up, Sam and Dean should have their boundaries too. Lines they won't cross no matter how hurt or damaged they are. And I think caring about the other brother as family should be on the other side of that line.
ReplyDeleteGod I can't remember, but it was early season 9 when the angels were running amok.
ReplyDeleteThe thing you should keep in mind here is that these are the lines they wouldn't cross as long as they are themselves. These lines don't matter if they are under some supernatural influence. It doesn't have to be ghost possession or siren poison - but anything that affects their emotional and mental stability.
ReplyDeleteWhich is why we had Sam almost kill Dean when he was high on demon blood, Castiel willing to kill them both when he had all the purgatory souls in him and now we have Dean condemning Sam because of the Mark.
Do you mean the one where Choir Nuns faced off against Biker Gang? Pretty sure that was angel on angel violence there.
ReplyDeleteIt's hard to explain. It has more to do with the narrative than with the character themselves, or rather how the narrative treats these two incidences.
ReplyDeleteWhen Dean shoots an innocent boy the narrative purpose is to blame Dean, or rather his Mark, not the boy. The intent is to show how far he is fallen and how much he needs to be saved. The killing is being perceived as the mistake, or sin.
When Sam causes Charlie to die and Dean is nasty to him the narrative intent still could be the same. However there's a more depressing possibility lurking there too. The possibility that the narrative intent is to blame Sam. To show what a terrible mistake he's done and what a big cost had to be paid. In this scenario Dean isn't in the wrong. He is the mouthpiece of that blame and the language he uses shows how much significant is being given to the magnitude of Sam's mistake. This scenario however ignores Sam's motive for his mistake, props Charlie's death as this colossal tragedy that would make Dean say something he's never even dreamed of, and leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
No I certainly remember there was a room, and only one female angel survived to tell the tale, and there was some sort of symbol painted on the wall. I think the killers might have been Abaddon's minions.
ReplyDeleteI actually had this as my Stynes gripe but it changed because God, there
ReplyDeletewas so much about them that didn't work. But my initial gripe was that
the Stynes were as uninspired in their death as they were in their life.
They didn't even put up a fight. Dean could have sneezed on them and
they would've fallen over.
I think you misunderstood me here. I'm not complaining about how weak they were (though that is a part of a different complaint), I'm complaining how Dean didn't make them suffer much.
Think Abaddon in the last season - she was laughing maniacally one minute, the next she was staring in horror and fear as Dean overcame her power and got closer and closer and then there was the screaming when he stabbed her. And even after she was dead, he kept stabbing her corpse. That's the sort of fate I wanted for Eldon and the rest of the "evil" Stynes.
The reason I wanted that is because they were entirely too smug and too confident in their expectation of victory. They didn't just need to die, they needed to be humiliated before dying. And I really thought that Dean ripping off Eldon's new arm and beating him to death with it would've made for a horrifically fascinating scene.
Again it takes more than having the local cops in one's pocket to erase a long trail of murders.
As I addressed it elsewhere - we don't know how long the trail of murders is, we don't know if they are reported as murders and not just missing persons, we don't know what exactly the cops are doing for them and we know that they are not just concentrated in one small town. I think that should be enough to avoid suspicion atleast.
Which is why we had Sam almost kill Dean when he was high on demon blood, Castiel willing to kill them both when he had all the purgatory souls in him and now we have Dean condemning Sam because of the Mark.Precisely. However Sam almost killing Dean is in line with keeping the balance while pushing him toward the dark side. The brothers had a fair fight. The hint we got that Sam was under influence was that he beat Dean almost to death and left him in the room. Now if he had set the room on fire with Dean in it, that would have been crossing the line.
ReplyDeleteSimilarly with S6 Castiel he threatened to kill them, yet he was never shown or implied to be willing to kill them. He had the perfect opportunity twice, once even after he found out they had harnessed death to off him, yet he left both times.
And in this case if they had Dean stick to what he said before and after and eliminated that one line, maybe just told Sam to shut up and not talk to him, it would have been ok.
It's fun to watch your favorite character battle with inner darkness. But we also want to think there's still a spark of light deep within them. We want them to go darkside but not get irrevocably consumed by it. When Dean beat up Castiel that was my hint for how far he had fallen, when he stabbed the book instead of him that was my cue that there was still a piece of Dean there and all wasn't lost.
9x18 - Meta-Fiction. Surviving angel was Hannah. And that was angel on angel violence as well. Gadreel put up that symbol as a beacon for angels and he offered them a place in heaven in exchange of joining Metatron's army. Those who refused were massacred leaving a sole survivor.
ReplyDelete"And in this case if they had Dean stick to what he said before and after
ReplyDeleteand eliminated that one line, maybe just told Sam to shut up and not
talk to him, it would have been ok."
Obviously, I'm one of those who thinks that that one line did nothing to make it not okay.
I see. So if you see a narrative intent to blame Sam, you'd see Dean's remark as crossing the limit of OOCness. Maybe that's why I don't agree with you - I don't see that intent here.
ReplyDelete"Similarly with S6 Castiel he threatened to kill them, yet he was never shown or implied to be willing to kill them. He had the perfect opportunity twice, once even after he found out they had harnessed death to off him, yet he left both times."
ReplyDeleteYou keep repeating that Cas wouldn't kill the Winchesters, but Cas purposely broke Sam's wall thinking there was no fix for that, and at best, it would kill him. At worse it would leave Sam a drooling mess on the floor in eternal torment. And that was before Cas took in the Purgatory souls.
I think it suggests that Dean on some level wants to kill Sam. Whether it will happen or not is another story.
ReplyDeleteNo, you are not alone. I took it as Dean felt Sam was careless in his responsibility to protect Charlie, and that is fitting for Dean's character.
ReplyDeleteBoth Crowley and Cas have been without purpose this entire season, and I don't see that changing in the finale.
ReplyDeleteSpot on review and I will start at the end, since that is what I read last. ;) Just think of the money the show could have saved if they had used Crowley and never had Rowena. At least she did not turn me off like Charlie usually did.
ReplyDeleteThe only part of the ep I did not like was Dean being totally unrecognizable with Sam. I don't even put Charlie's death on Sam, she was supposed to be the "smartest" person in the room and she went off on her own. When Sam picked Ruby over Dean I could see Dean being hurt, when Sam picked a dog and girl over looking for Dean I was furious and it took me a long time to forgive Sam, but what Dean said to Sam this ep was as much out of character as Sam NOT looking for Dean.
Stynes as big bads was a big fail for me.
Everyone has their own take on the characters and what is going on, because the writers have not fully explored the story. It has been left to the fans to fill in the blanks for the writers. Before the season started, Carver said each character would be facing their inner demons.
ReplyDeleteDean's demon is the Mark and has been for 1.5 years. How is the character growing from that? What is he learning? To me, Dean is doing better this season than he was last season, and he is still making the right decisions and choices, Mark or no Mark. He may very well be close to losing it, but that has not been shown up until somewhat in this last episode.
Sam's inner demons are...I don't know what they are. He inexplicably decided that he MUST save Dean this season and, in doing so, he is making bad choices. What is he to learn from that? I don't even know how he got from S8 and S9 Sam to S10 Sam. In fact, I don't see a plan for Sam's character this season at all.
The writers cannot tell a Winchester in two episodes out of 23, and that is my major problem with this season.
Is it OCC for Dean though? There's very little here that Dean hasn't said, or alluded to, before. Ditto with the comments made by Demon Dean in 10.03. It was similar to the fake phone message in season 4. Everything on the message Dean had said before so it was very easy for Sam to believe it.
ReplyDeleteI'll admit, I didn't even blink when Dean said what he did because, unfortunately, under Carver, I don't expect any different from Dean. And I know it won't ever be addressed again so there's no point getting up in arm's about it.
I'm interested (I think) as to exactly what it was that Sam did in s8 and s9 that warrants him needing to be rehabilitated.
ReplyDeleteGinger, the ones he loves were working to save him. This is, and always has been, Dean's biggest problem. He cannot see things as they actually are, just in terms of how they affect him. He's still thinking like a dictator. If they do as I say they can be trusted and if they don't then they can't be trusted.' It' a crazy situation to put characters in because very often what Dean wants does not benefit the greater good.
ReplyDeleteUmm... that's not what I said. I agree with Tessa about what Dean said being out of character, I disagree about it being unacceptably out of character.
ReplyDeleteActually, Cas had a pretty good purpose - hunt down rogue angels, recover his grace, help with finding a cure for Dean, re-capture Metatron. Unfortunately, all of that got traded in for emotional teen drama.
ReplyDeleteYes you're absolutely right. If the intent isn't to blame Sam for his misfired act of love but to show Dean fallen too deep into darkness then it isn't OOC, mainly because we don't know what IC is for a fallen Dean who is fully consumed by the mark.
ReplyDeleteDean's demon is the Mark and has been for 1.5 years. How is the
ReplyDeletecharacter growing from that? What is he learning? To me, Dean is doing
better this season than he was last season, and he is still making the
right decisions and choices, Mark or no Mark. He may very well be close
to losing it, but that has not been shown up until somewhat in this
last episode.
I don't think the writers expected Dean to grow or learn anything from the Mark arc - other than, perhaps "don't take on demonic brands without reading the label", but that is something he should know already. The writers thought "We had Sam go darkside in season 4, Cas in season 6, so now its Dean's turn". The problem is, Sam going dark was about him fighting destiny and Cas's foray was about learning the responsibility that comes with free will.
Sam's inner demons are...I don't know what they are. He inexplicably
decided that he MUST save Dean this season and, in doing so, he is
making bad choices. What is he to learn from that? I don't even know
how he got from S8 and S9 Sam to S10 Sam. In fact, I don't see a plan
for Sam's character this season at all.
I thought Sam's motives were explained very well. He loves his brother, he wants to keep hunting with him and he owes him everything. S8 Sam - the one who gave up on Dean for no reason at all - was the truly inexplicable one. S9 Sam's reaction made sense to me given his feelings of betrayal and the rest of the story is about him getting over that and getting back to the status quo of caring for Dean.
You keep repeating that Cas wouldn't kill the Winchesters, but Cas purposely broke Sam's wall thinking there was no fix for that, and at best, it would kill him.It didn't kill him instantly. And in the Supernatural world there's always a way out as we saw in that very instant which Castiel himself eventually fixed.
ReplyDeleteStill I don't even consider breaking Sam's wall a low blow. I explained this more in my responses to DogsAreGreat and Martin Anders. It also heavily related to the narrative intent. If the one dealing the blow is seen as the guilty party (in this case Castiel, since I don't think the show was implying that Sam deserved his wall to be broken,) then the envelope can be pushed further (still not too far, like actually killing Sam.) If the one receiving the blow is implied as the guilty (Sam in this episode, if that was the intent,) then the boundary is a little tighter. I have to agree with Dean in his reaction to Sam's mistake and that gets harder when a)Dean's going against his ingrained nature, b)He is going too far in his verbal scolding, and c)Sam is repentant and apologizing/feeling awful about what he's done.
Yes, it is OOC - because the real Dean - the one whose life revolves around his brother - would never say those things. Demon Dean said it is not an argument because that was an OOC version of Dean to begin with. Same goes for the fake message - it wasn't the real Dean who left it.
ReplyDeleteNot looking for Dean in S8 and giving up on them being a family in S9.
ReplyDeleteNothing.Just that he did not do what Dean wanted him do.Dean's ever changing demands for Sam.Same old same old.
ReplyDelete" is that the nurse who was possessed in Lucifer Rising was a HUMAN Sam
ReplyDeletecould've exorcised her but didn't, in order to keep a demon blood bag." Yes and Dean has always exorcized .Okay .
Nope .two different situations .
ReplyDeleteI agree that Cas was seen as the guilty party, but I don't see how that makes this statement accurate: "yet he was never shown or implied to be willing to kill them." You said this in your article too: "(Cas) would kill a room full of humans, yet not raise a finger against Dean, Sam, and Bobby, not even when they sicced death on him."
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Sam didn't die right away and chose to live in "The Man Who Knew Too Much" doesn't change the fact that Cas deliberately delivered a potentially lethal blow to Sam, just to distract Dean. We know Cas was aware of what he was doing, because in season 6 he argued against bringing Sam's soul back because he believed that if Sam got his soul back, it would, as the best case scenario, kill him.
I also disagree with your argument that at this point, Sam, not Dean, is supposed to be viewed as the guilty party. Although Sam feels guilty, the show went to great lengths to show that Charlie made her own choice, not once, but several times. The mark is supposed to intensify the rage against his brother, and we're supposed to be shocked.
We saw this rage before at the beginning of the season with Demon Dean swinging a hammer at Sam's head and telling Sam that Sam was responsible for Mary's death. We're supposed to see Dean as just as far gone as Cas was in season 6.
Sam had the nurse totally neutralized. He had ostensibly kidnapped her to find out where Lillith was to kill Lillith. THEN Ruby told him he needed "more juice" than she could supply. At THAT MOMENT Sam had the choice of kicking the demon out of her or literally drinking her to death. Previously to that Sam was claiming to Dean that he saved peoples' lives by exorcising them with the Hand of Ipecac. HERE he CHOSE to kill the woman (whom the demon let out and was begging for her life). This more than anything else Sam did (even beating up Dean the previous episode and saying horrible horrible things to him) was the worst thing Sam ever did on the show in my opinion. AND I don't think he ever confessed it to anybody
ReplyDeleteI just watched Time is On My Side from Season 3 on TNT. Dean was questioning a demon he and Sam had captured (torturing him with holy water to get LIlliths' name); the demon told them he could NEVER betray that name. NEVER. Dean had Sam "say the words" and exorcise the demon. The human was dead, but they didn't kill him.
'WAY back in Season 1 in Devils' Trap, Bobby told the boys that he normally saw 3-4 demon possessions a year, NOW he had seen 26 already (in May). In the early years of the show there was more "leisure" if that is the right word to exorcise demons. Now they get attacked by two or three or four at a time, fight for their lives and kill the demons. Times have changed (on the show); I don't blame them for killing their way out of the issue now. BUT again, to me the nurse was a game changer for Sam's character. EVERYTHING up to then I could excuse as either "saving Dean" or "stopping Lillith" but that was a murder (IMO).
Dean never wanted Sam to completely give up on him or to shirk his responsibilities as a hunter or to disown his own family.
ReplyDeleteThere's something missing in this post. Sam drained the nurse of her blood to stop the apocalypse. I'm not saying it was the right call, but according to the information he had at the time, he was Team Free Will's best weapon for killing Lilith and preventing Lucifer from getting out of his cage and killing half of the world. Dean killed the human kid ... why did he kill the kid? ... that's right, because the kid touched his stuff.
ReplyDeleteWas it ever confirmed that Sam killed the nurse? He needed the demon blood to power up but I don't recall her dying to be a requirement.
ReplyDeleteSam's grim face when he put her in the drunk, her screaming in the trunk when they were about 5m from the abandoned convent...I think the point of the whole plot line was that Sam did this to "save the world" but as Dean said in Jus In Bello, we are not killing the innocent to save ourselves. It was RUBY that said she gave Sam choices and EVERY time he picked the wrong one. Sam never said I killed the nurse. I agree. But it was also never stated that he drank all of her blood to power up to destroy Lillith and then let her go somehow. It was all part of the moral conundrum Sam was facing and that he "passed" according to Ruby.
ReplyDeleteI never heard anybody doubt Sam drank the nurse dry. Do you doubt he did or are you posing an intellectual question? I'll agree we never "saw" it but I also never "doubted" it.
Cord, are you saying the "ends (killing Lillith) justified the means (killing the nurse)"? The point of the whole Sam-runs-off-with-Ruby plot was that he kept making the wrong choices.
ReplyDeleteDean killed the kid because he was a) a Steyn b) with (apparently under no duress) the Steyn who murdered Charlie and c) BURNING DOWN HIS HOME. He didn't just "touch his stuff" (Dean wasn't Francis from Stripes). He was part of an evil group. I can accept the argument that because the kid wasn't enhanced he wasn't "in too deep" yet. But Cyrus "was" with Eldon. I didn't see if Cyrus was armed. If I knew he was unarmed, I'd be sure Dean should not have killed him. As it was, it was ambiguous to me; and HOW would Dean have "known" the kid wasn't a threat? I think the show put it out there to BE ambiguous (like Carl killing the Woodbury kid) as different people see if differently. Until Martin's comment above, I never thought anybody did not believe Sam killed Nurse Cindy.
And to anybody who thinks I am being harsh on Sam, I think the show has chickened out of giving Dean a completely EVIL act. They should've. I thought they were going for symmetry. But in the previews we see Dean talking to Sam on the phone, being "himself" not harsh, and THEN trying to arrange his own death with Death. I don't know WHAT I would've wanted him to do, but I don't think he has crossed any apocalyptic moral line yet.
I do doubt it.
ReplyDeleteSam couldn't have killed her before drinking the blood because he needed the demon alive and well when he drained her. Another reason he needed the nurse was because his regular source - Ruby - wouldn't be enough. We don't know how much blood was needed here - but knowing Sam, he took most of it from Ruby and used the nurse to make up the difference. After that, he could have simply exorcised the demon and let the host go.
The question whether one life should be sacrificed to save millions is debatable, and I'm wasn't taking a stand on whether Sam's actions were wrong or right given what he knew at the time. Aren't you though in arguing that Dean has any kind of moral ground in killing a kid (who to Dean's knowledge hasn't hurt anyone yet) to possibly save other lives down the road? The kid didn't voluntarily join a bad group, he was born into a family. Dean let Amy's son walk away even though the kid was predisposed by nature to murder, whereas this kid was human.
ReplyDeleteThis whole discussion is a moot point anyway, since there was no indication that there anything other than bloodlust and revenge running through Dean's mind when murdered the whole family and everyone who worked for them.
Don't apologize for the length of your post! I enjoyed reading your thoughts. I can say I didn't expect the MOC story to resolve Dean's low self-esteem or inner demons. I never saw the MOC as a "good" thing so the idea of it helping Dean never really crossed my mind.
ReplyDeleteI should back up and say I expected a lot more from the DD arc. I didn't really care for the way the MOC arc played out last year, so it's not too surprising, I'm still not enjoying it this year. I saw both arcs (DD and MOC) as a way to do something new w/Dean, to take him to a place he had never been. If anything, I thought Dean's struggles w/being demon or bearing the Mark would help him gain a better understanding of Sam's struggles.
But at the end of the day, I mostly expected an exciting story and a Dean that we had never seen before. Sadly, they stuck to mostly safe territory w/Dean and didn't change him too much. To me, that made the overall story pointless and boring. I still have not watched last week's episode, but I think it's nice Dean finally went on a rampage. I just wish it hadn't taken all season to get there, and that Charlie hadn't been the reason.
I do think it would be nice to get Dean to a better place mentally. I'm not sure how he could get there though. Purgatory would have made the most sense.
Ahhh . . . I didn't realize Carver said that. No wonder you're disappointed. What inner demons did Sam face? What were Cas's? Losing his grace? Failing Jimmy's family? Crowley? Were his mommy issues his inner demons?
ReplyDeleteCarver can't be trusted, esp. since he doesn't plan out the season. How can the characters face their inner demons when you don't even know where you want to take them?!?! He is a joke!
Love this post! That's how I feel too. If the writers aren't willing to do anything remotely controversial w/Dean, then he shouldn't be given plots like this. Save them for Sam or Cas - characters that the writers clearly feel can be trashed and tossed under the bus! Haha! As you said, DD was bland and MOC!Dean has been normal for most of the season.
ReplyDeleteYeah. That nurse is dead.
ReplyDeleteAh. But if Sam has disowned Dean, he would have left, right? I think that Dean turning his back on Sam in Season 5 (5.4), was more disowning Sam than what Sam did, because he basically told him to bug off. I think that there's too much emphasis on words sometimes. On this show, where the writers really aren't very good, you also have to look at what characters do, not just the words. Sam always acted like he cared after.
ReplyDeleteWell, the equation was presented that Sam did a "bad thing." Not just me saying it, but RUBY said it. She was laughing. (He could've drunk half Cindy, half Ruby but Ruby said she couldn't give more because she had to help Sam, he had to DRAIN Cindy.)
ReplyDeleteDifferent question, same point: if Kevin or Charlie or Sam had been at the Bunker when Eldon, Cyrus and the minion had shown up would they have killed them/tried to kill them? If there was a dead friend in there, Cyrus, unwilling or not, would have been liable before the LAW. Cyrus was out on a search and destroy. They were expecting SOMEBODY to be there.
I know what you are saying. To me it is also that the show made a conscious decision to dirty-up Sam and keep Dean ambiguous. But somehow they are supposed to be equivalent. (I think "we" know too much exculpatory stuff about Cyrus and Dean had none; I am unsure if Dean was 100% in rage/ revenge mode but I will admit that was a large part of it for Dean. I DO know he didn't torture anybody and all of it seemed to be clean kills, like the Steyn nurse. Boy, and I DO know this is a stupid argument on my part.)
Really, I never ran into ANYBODY who processed the Nurse Cindy plot line that Sam exorcised the demon and let her go. I just can't see it. Sam was too bummed out.
ReplyDeleteI think that Sam has remained consistent over the years with his reasons for saving Dean. First, he loves him. Second, this year, Sam is behaving a lot like he was during season 3, and the common thread is Hell, or an evil destiny. Sam will do anything to save Dean from that. So I understand perfectly why Sam is hellbent on his quest. Season 8, like Jared said, was just "bizarre". But at the beginning of season 9, Sam didn't need to be saved. He was dying a natural death and going to Heaven. He was ok with that. That's why he said he wouldn't "save" Dean the same way if the situation was reversed.'
ReplyDeleteOne would think they don't normally shit where they eat, I mean Eldon went all the way to Omaha to harvest eyes. And even if they do pick off the odd person in their town, they don't leave bodies/evidence, so it would never come to murder, only missing persons.
ReplyDeleteHow do we know if Sam killed her?
ReplyDeleteBecause none of this has been done by Dean.What Sam sees as his responsibilities is for Sam to decide.I am not going to decide about Sam's responsibilities by giving credence to Dean's words over Sam's.More than that I do know Sam's situation.It does not matter if Dean thinks he abandoned his "duties" for a girl and a dog .That was not what really happened .I know that.
ReplyDeleteAnd you are forgetting the number of Demons who were trapped by Dean for getting information about Lisa and Ben.He killed them nonetheless.Now see If you do not see that as unforgivable and see Sam draining a nurse for a explicit purpose of stopping apocalyse.those are double standards.Either both actions are forgivable or they are not.
ReplyDeleteYou know how its tough to save someone who has been possessed? How even if you get the demon out, they might still die from the wounds of the fight or simply from the strain of possession? Well, I prefer to believe that all those other hosts are dead already.
ReplyDeleteWell, you've met someone now and I can easily see it. Sam was bummed about holding down a flailing kicking woman and draining her blood because that makes him just like a vampire - but her actual death isn't on the agenda. He could get the demon out or even kill it (does using psychic powers to kill the demon save the host?) find out that the nurse is still alive - barely breathing - and tell Ruby to teleport her to the nearest ER.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to think that Sam drank her blood and then stabbed her with Ruby's knife - but he didn't have the knife with him, Dean did. His choices were to exorcize her verbally, exorcize psychically or kill psychically - none of them necessarily equal death.
Different question, same point: if Kevin or Charlie or Sam had been at the Bunker when Eldon, Cyrus and the minion had shown up would they have killed them/tried to kill them? If there was a dead friend in
ReplyDeletethere, Cyrus, unwilling or not, would have been liable before the LAW.
Cyrus was out on a search and destroy. They were expecting SOMEBODY to
be there.
"Mercy, sire! I didn't kill anyone. I only watched for the guards."
"This one was only the watcher. Hang him last so he can watch the others die."
In Cyrus' defence, he was essentially there as a hostage - someone forced to come almost at gunpoint. Under law, those would be mitigating circumstances.
Most of the debate about Dean killing Cyrus seems to boil down to "how was Dean supposed to know that the kid was on the up and up" and that's a valid point. However, I think that at this point, it wouldn't have mattered even if he did know. Even if Dean had been surveilling the Stynes for days - seen Cyrus get bullied, seen how he was almost forced to commit murder, heard his conversation with the gamer - I think he'd have still killed him.
"Because none of this has been done by Dean."
ReplyDeleteNope.
"What Sam sees as his responsibilities is for Sam to decide."
So helping Kevin wasn't his responsibility?
"It does not matter if Dean thinks he abandoned his "duties" for a girl
and a dog .That was not what really happened .I know that."
Really? Because from what we saw, that's exactly what happened. So how do you know any different?
" I think that Dean turning his back on Sam in Season 5 (5.4), was more
ReplyDeletedisowning Sam than what Sam did, because he basically told him to bug
off."
Yes, it was. Thankfully, he didn't stick with it.
"On this show, where the writers really aren't very good, you also have
to look at what characters do, not just the words. Sam always acted
like he cared after."
You mean when he was not being cold and dismissive?
"Nope."yep .He has.Julia has written in her comment."So helping Kevin wasn't his responsibility?"No.Kevin did not become a prophet because of Sam or Dean.It is neither of their responsibility.They did not take on his responsibility"Really? Because from what we saw, that's exactly what happened. So how do you know any different?"If you know how much time had elapsed between Dick's explosion and Sam and dog accident please do tell me.If you know what really happened I am all ears.As of now what the show has told me through Sam is he broke .The girl and the dog came later.How much later you ask? Well your guess is as good as mine.
ReplyDelete"Nope."yep .He has.Julia has written in her comment."So helping Kevin
ReplyDeletewasn't his responsibility?"No.Kevin did not become a prophet because of
Sam or Dean.It is neither of their responsibility.They did not take on
his responsibility"Really? Because from what we saw, that's exactly what
happened. So how do you know any different?"If you know how much time
had elapsed between Dick's explosion and Sam and dog accident please do
tell me.If you know what really happened I am all ears.As of now what
the show has told me through Sam is he broke .The girl and the dog came
later.How much later you ask? Well your guess is as good as mine....
yep .He has.Julia has written in her comment.
ReplyDeleteNope. It doesn't count if he doesn't stick to it for more than 2-3 episodes.
No.Kevin did not become a prophet because of Sam or Dean.It is neither
of their responsibility.They did not take on his responsibility
Kevin
became a prophet when Sam and Dean released the tablet. And by the end
of season 7, Sam is the only hunter left alive who knows that there is a
prophet of the Lord and Crowley has him. And since being a hunter was
his choice, its his responsibility to either rescue Kevin or find
someone else to take the burden.
If you know
how much time had elapsed between Dick's explosion and Sam and dog
accident please do tell me.If you know what really happened I am all
ears.As of now what the show has told me through Sam is he broke.The
girl and the dog came later.How much later you ask? Well your guess is
as good as mine.
1 month, approximately. And my guess is probably a lot better - let's do the math.
Dick
was killed mid-May and Kevin left a drunk message about three months
later - let's say at the end of August, to be generous. We also know
that he left two other messages, atleast 1 week apart, before that -
which means that Kevin escaped Crowley mid-August. Since Sam didn't
bother to check any of them, I'm assuming that he was already taking
care of the dog and dating Amelia at that point - because simply
wandering around the country without checking his messages would be
worse. This gives a 3-month window between Dick dying and Sam running
around with Amelia and the dog.
Since dogs take 6-12 weeks to
heal from fractures, let's assume Riot rested for 2 months (8 weeks)
before running to Amelia's room with Sam behind him. Which means Sam hit
the dog 1 month after Dick's death.
Mind you, this calculation
is being extremely generous. Kevin could have escaped Crowley after just
a week and could still have drunk dialled Sam in August. Sam could have
hit the dog 1 week after Dick's death and stopped checking his messages
then and there and the math still works out. But that makes Sam look
even worse than he does with the 1 month gap.
Yes, everyone said Sam did a bad thing, but that doesn't make his motivations unsympathetic or not understandable if you're open to seeing his point of view.
ReplyDeleteOn the second paragraph, I'm not sure if you're arguing self defense or legal loophole, but neither of those apply here. While I agree the show dirtied up Sam, I don't agree they tried to keep Dean's actions ambiguous. They spent a whole episode showing how sympathetic this kid was, to the point where he even tried to protect his bully from his family and sympathized with Dean. Compare this to the one minute or so that we got to know nurse Cindy.
We also have Dean going for the kill with Sam at the beginning of the season, telling Sam he's responsible for Mary's death, and then telling Sam that he wishes it was Sam burning instead of Charlie. If you still think that's ambiguous, that's not the show's fault. I'm starting to think that they could write Dean walking down the street killing babies, and there would be a fan argument that the babies had it coming because they were giving Dean the evil eye.
"Nope. It doesn't count if he doesn't stick to it for more than 2-3 episodes." The same is true for Sam but I do not see the same treatment for Sam.
ReplyDelete"Kevin
became a prophet when Sam and Dean released the tablet. And by the end
of season 7, Sam is the only hunter left alive who knows that there is a
prophet of the Lord and Crowley has him. And since being a hunter was
his choice, its his responsibility to either rescue Kevin or find
someone else to take the burden."That does not make Kevin the prophet.Only if the earlier prophet is dead.So whoever killed the earlier prophet is responsible."1 month, approximately. And my guess is probably a lot better - let's do the math."It simple does not matter as it is your guess.and neglects an important fact that Sam broke.People get exhausted.Exhaustion causes people to need to take a break.So I do not see you being generous at all with respect to Sam.I can assume many other things about that time but that requires empathy towards Sam's situation at that point of time and your comment which you say is generous does not even mention it.So while you give a possible scenario it does not take all the factors into consideration and by that I mean Sam who we are discussing.But then again the only thing we know is Sam broke...when? how long? How severe?Your guess is as good as mine ?While you may find yourself generous I do not.
Unless and until I get more information about what happened at that time all of our guesses will be flawed .
WE saw Cyrus' issues with the Steyn family way; Dean had no way of knowing that. I also didn't bring up any "possessed and then says awful things" issues like Sam at the Asylum or either one with the Siren, etc. Early Season 10 Dean was a demon and saying awful things to EVERYBODY.
ReplyDeleteAbout nurse Cindy, I actually felt that woman's terror. Maybe it was just a minute or two, but I felt it. Where Cyrus was concerned, I felt sympathy but not his particular terror in the same way I felt hers. That is an individual issue (maybe because I am a woman of about her age?).
I don't think you got my point: to me the show gave NO other way to look at what Sam was doing in Season 4 (and all the lies...beginning in Season 3! For instance, in AHBL2 end of Season TWO, Azazel SHOWS Sam bleeding into his mouth but Sam tells Dean nothing about the demon plans; Sam finds out about Lillith in Season THREE early and then Dean finds out about Lillith hunting down Sam much LATER in Jus in Bello; Dean finds out about the bleeding in the mouth stuff in Season FOUR...why is Sam lying? Is there any way Sam is the good guy here? Dean needs this information, doncha think?) and I felt Sam's "anguish" about nurse Cindy and I DO believe he thought he "had" to kill her to save the world. I DO, I swear. It's just, as Sam said, it's not the road to heaven that's paved with good intentions.
And to me, the fact is, Dean didn't have all the info the audience had about Cyrus. It WOULD have been more "Dean" to let the kid live, but to me they left it as ambiguous as Carl and Woodbury kid (I keep bringing that up because I really really COULD see both sides there and a teenager died). Supernatural gave me an arguable path for Dean's action.
No I think she died of blood loss. I think he drank her dry. I think Ruby wasn't going to get serious blood loss here because he believed he needed her as back-up against Lillith (although again and again we saw her basically standing around holding his coat) and the whole relationship was sick because he was sleeping with a coma patient Ruby was meat-suiting. We saw how he got with other demons (like The Rapture). I think once he started he couldn't stop and he could only stop with Ruby because she was his supplier and the had to "protect" her. He was horrible options each time he came to a fork in the road and (according to Ruby) he always picked the "wrong" one (she called it the right one, but her point of view was skewed).
ReplyDeleteI agree. I was arguing about early seasons. When Crowley became an active enemy in Season 6 it was Stabby Mcstabberson all the time. In Season 7 when they dealt with Jeffrey (who had been possessed previously) it showed them questioning him, exorcising him, then taking him to the hospital (I believe the flashback was Season 3), Jeffrey lived. That seemed to be the earlier attitude. After Season 5 there is no more trying to save anybody.
ReplyDelete"The same is not true for Sam - he stuck to the disownment for a sold half a season."
ReplyDeleteNo he did not.He was with Dean.He supported Dean...but at the same time he was angry at Dean's actions.
"No one killed the previous prophet - he just stopped being a prophet.
Which is why releasing the Word does make Kevin the prophet."
Then Kevin should just have stopped being the prophet .If that was an option.If Chuck was a prophet.
"First of all - use the spacebar. Your text is quite unreadable."
Point taken.Hope this comment turns out better.
"Secondly, I've given details about the timeline - so its not a guess
when I say that Sam gave up on hunting within a month of Dean's
disappearance."
and what I do think is your timeline does not include when Sam broke.how he broke.what was nature of his breaking.Which to me is very important while seeing how Sam acted and to even judge his actions.
"
Thirdly, Sam "broke" is an extremely poor excuse. Not just poor - it
is downright insulting to the character. This is the guy who became a
Terminator after the Trickster killed Dean. The same guy who didn't give
up after Dean went to hell. The guy who raised himself from a trauma
induced coma because his brother needed him. The guy who kept hunting
while having visions of Lucifer torment him.
"
It is not a poor excuse but a valid one.I do not find a character breaking down to be insulting to the character.It showed me that Sam was affected so deeply and it made sense as there was no one there at that crucial moment.
It made Sam human.
I say this because I have never thought of Sam as a saint (which some part of the fandom says we think Sam of as) . Along with this I also realize that there is a huge difference between the Sam of then and the Sam of now....and most importantly I also remember the Sam between season 3 and season 4.That was no terminator.
If cherry picking Sam's reactions are what is necessary then yes, your point stands.But that is not so.
But also I realize that people react to different situations differently and what I mean by that is, the same person will react to different situations differently.
There was much difference in Sam of then to Sam of now. And we neglect this point then yes Sam should react the same always.
"And he just "broke" within a month without doing anything? Still not buying it"
What I do think Sam broke in even lesser time , but as I said your guess is as good as mine.
"WE saw Cyrus' issues with the Steyn family way; Dean had no way of knowing that."
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Dean shot a kid in cold blood that he knew almost nothing about hurts his case, rather than helps it, IMO. This discussion started with you saying Sam drinking the nurse's blood was "unforgivable" but Dean shooting a kid in cold blood was "ambiguous." I don't see how the show could have made the fact Dean was wrong any less ambiguous. We even had Cas yelling from the sidelines to stop.
"I don't think you got my point: to me the show gave NO other way to look at what Sam was doing in Season 4 (and all the lies...beginning in Season 3!"
My response is that there is another way to look at what Sam was doing in season 4, and that is sympathetically. Both brothers lied to each other (Dean initially lied to Sam about what John told him and then about bringing Sam back from the dead and selling his soul). In both cases the lies were personal. Dean didn't want Sam to know that he might be a monster. Sam didn't want Dean to look at him like he was a monster.
"Is there any way Sam is the good guy here? Dean needs this information, doncha think?"
Yes, Sam is as much of a sympathetic, flawed hero as Dean, with an emphasis on flawed. Yes, the information in season 3 would have been good for Dean to know, as the knowledge that John had thought Sam was in danger of becoming a monster was a good thing for Sam to know in season 2, and that Cain told Dean he would kill Sam is a good thing for Sam to know NOW.
"It WOULD have been more "Dean" to let the kid live, but to me they left it as ambiguous as Carl and Woodbury kid (I keep bringing that up because I really really COULD see both sides there and a teenager died)."
This is NOTHING like Carl's situation. Carl felt threatened - not in the immediate moment - but history had taught him that if they let a bad guy walk away, the bad guy would come back and kill his family. It's absurd to think Dean felt threatened by the Styne kid.
I appreciate your engaging me in how you read the situations here; it is so different from what I got out of the show and I am trying to see if there is anyway I can "see" it your way.
ReplyDeleteI'll go back to Dean NOT telling Sam in Season 2 that John told him to kill Sam "if he couldn't save him": we don't know if John knew about the psy-kids but he did seem to know that Azazel had "claimed" Sam in some way. And when Sam told him about his visions and that it appeared to be related to the other psy-kids I think John knew. (DON'T KNOW if he knew, I think he KNEW.) Dean held that, because he told himself he would NEVER kill Sam, but then he told him to be prepared. Sam took off. Season 2.01 to Season 2.10. Then yeah, he didn't tell him about selling his soul, but TOLD him in the same episode 2.23. I will not give him any excuses for either lie, but I think selling his soul was a big deal for him and he told him the next day.
So we just see it differently. And I do appreciate your point of view.
And I appreciate you keeping this civil and friendly. We'll probably have to agree to see it differently, but to respond to these comments ...
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of what John knew or didn't know is speculation, but the big point that was important for Sam to know is that John had reason to believe that Sam would turn into a monster that needed killing. That was a HUGE leap from Sam's understanding of what was happening up until that point. Dean did eventually tell Sam, I think after Croatoan when it became clear that something serious was happening with Sam, but Dean hid it for a while.
Dean told Sam about selling his soul only after Sam guessed, when Jake told him he was dead.
I think all off these lies and the reasons behind them are sympathetic. I just don't see how Dean's are less serious than Sam's.
Dean didn't tell him the next day. Sam guessed and Dean chose not to lie to him again because Sam KNEW already.
ReplyDelete"Ruby wasn't going to get serious blood loss here because he believed he needed her as back-up against Lillith"
ReplyDeleteWhy would Ruby need blood? She is a demon - she should be able to move even when she is empty. Blood loss isn't fatal to demons - unless caused by the knife.
And how much blood do you think he could drink in one sitting? Human body has about 5 liters of blood - that sounds a lot to drink at once.
As for "The Rapture" - he did stop on his own without drinking the demon dry.
The more you raise these invalid points, the more it seems like he didn't need to kill the nurse after all.
Ruby was his back-up in the fight with Lillith. She had already fed him the day before (?) when he got out of the Panic Room (they met at the hotel, he yelled at her a bit about leaving him out to dry, she said she found Lillith's cook, he pulled the knife out of her boot and fed). They got the nurse. the nurse actually cracked pretty easily in my opinion, said Lillith would be at the convent. Ruby told him he would need a LOT more juice than she could supply and looked at the nurse. The demon in the nurse THEN said, well, you lied you wouldn't kill me, so I am letting Cindy out (come on DOWN). I remember this scene so well because it really upset me.
ReplyDeleteAND if you remember the scene in Two Minutes to Midnight, Castiel and Bobby brought him MULTIPLE demons to juice up on (and make his body able to withstand Lucifer) -- I remember them in the car. He drank them ALL down.
I don't think these are invalid points. I don't know much about drug addiction but I DO know that an addict can use more and more of his drug of choice AND that an addict NEVER gives up his supplier. Sam needed more and more blood and his relationship with Ruby was quite skeevy (to me anyway). I don't think any of these are invalid points.
You're right. What I meant to say was that when Dean had a lie he usually broke down pretty quickly. I don't think John's-last-words lasted all that long as a lie. I was just REALLY bugged that Sam never told Dean about Azazel bleeding into his mouth for a SEASON AND A HALF. I thought that was a pretty big secret to keep. Why do YOU think Sam didn't tell Dean about the ins-and-outs of Azazel's plan?
ReplyDelete(I won't get into the Gadreel secret; he was wrong not to tell, and when he began to realize Gadreel was not the answer to his prayers -- if that's the right phrase -- Gadreel would not let him speak to Sam and began to threaten him. It was the worst thing he did there. I usually don't mind them not telling each other everything all the time, because jiminy cricket, they have no damn privacy, do they. I'D keep secrets just to have something to myself. BUT I agree, they are BOTH secret-keepers when they believe they need to be.)
No he did not.He was with Dean.He supported Dean...but at the same time he was angry at Dean's actions.
ReplyDeleteHe was "with" Dean as a partner, but he didn't support him. Watch the show, dude.
It is not a poor excuse but a valid one.I do not find a character
breaking down to be insulting to the character.It showed me that Sam was
affected so deeply and it made sense as there was no one there at that
crucial moment.
Sam's reaction was human.
I say this because
I have never thought of Sam as a saint (which some part of the fandom
says we think Sam of as) . Along with this I also realize that there is a
huge difference between the Sam of then and the Sam of now....and most
importantly I also remember the Sam between season 3 and season 4. That
was no terminator.
If cherry picking Sam's reactions are what is necessary then yes, your point stands.But that is not so.
But
also I realize that people react to different situations differently
and the same person will react to different situations differently.
There was much difference in Sam of then to Sam of now. And if we neglect this point then yes Sam should react the same always.
Not only is it a poor excuse, you are backing them with poor rationalizations. I don't have to cherrypick anything - Sam has consistently shown the ability to keep fighting in the face of loss or trauma. You keep making excuses like "he was a different guy then" and "he's only human" and "people react differently" - but those excuses only apply to out-of-character moments. That's the whole problem - Sam's character is that of strength and perseverance and his action of giving up is out-of-character. Whatever weak excuses you come up with doesn't change that.
He does not have to do anything to break.what happened to him broke him.
What I do think Sam broke in even lesser time , but as I said your guess is as good as mine.
So Sam has survived losing his girlfriend, he has survived losing his father, he has survived losing most of his friends, he ahs survived losing his brother multiple times, he has survived hell - and he just "breaks" because his brother disappeared? That does not fit at all.
And what the hell does "breaking" even mean? He couldn't handle hunting any more? Clearly that's not true, because he can handle it.
Ruby was his back-up in the fight with Lillith. She had already fed him
ReplyDeletethe day before (?) when he got out of the Panic Room (they met at the
hotel, he yelled at her a bit about leaving him out to dry, she said she
found Lillith's cook, he pulled the knife out of her boot and fed).
They got the nurse. the nurse actually cracked pretty easily in my
opinion, said Lillith would be at the convent. Ruby told him he would
need a LOT more juice than she could supply and looked at the nurse.
The demon in the nurse THEN said, well, you lied you wouldn't kill me,
so I am letting Cindy out (come on DOWN). I remember this scene so well
because it really upset me.
Ruby's exact words were "You need more juice than I got". She never said how much more. And that's why none of this is enough to prove that Sam had to drain the nurse dry. He could still drink Ruby dry (because Ruby doesn't need blood to stay alive) and get the rest from the nurse. And since we don't know how much more he needs, we don't know if its enough to kill her.
AND if you remember the scene in Two Minutes to Midnight, Castiel and
Bobby brought him MULTIPLE demons to juice up on (and make his body able
to withstand Lucifer) -- I remember them in the car. He drank them ALL
down. So Sam was able to drink many times more than 5L of blood at one
time.
What i do remember is Sam looking at the jars of blood in one scene and having finished and ready to go the next. We don't know how much time her took to drink it all.
However, simple physics would put a limit on how much he can drink before he has to take a break and let his body absorb the blood. And I seriously doubt that its anywhere close to 5L. This means that not only can Sam stop himself from drinking someone dry, but he'd have to take regular breaks in between.
I don't think these are invalid points. I don't know much about drug
addiction but I DO know that an addict can use more and more of his drug
of choice AND that an addict NEVER gives up his supplier. Sam needed
more and more blood and his relationship with Ruby was quite skeevy (to
me anyway). I don't think any of these are invalid points.
Your points are invalid because they don't prove your conclusion. An addict can take in more and more of the drug, but there is a physical limit to the intake capacity. An addict may not give up his supplier, but he wouldn't be giving Ruby up even if he drinks her dry.
Because he needed to drain her of her blood to kill Lilith. That was stated during the episode. Remember Sam shouting at Ruby that HE was going to have to be the one to DRAIN (i.e., use all of her blood) the poor woman trapped in the trunk? Remember Sam getting Dean's message? Remember Ruby smirking when Sam ended the call and said, "Let's do this" or "Do it," and Ruby opened the trunk? Remember Sam killing Lilith shortly thereafter?
ReplyDeleteNo, they did not show Sam actually cutting her and drinking all of her blood but it was strongly implied he did, and that was enough for me. They also drained several demons in the S5 finale to get Sam enough blood to take in Lucifer.
Already countered all of these arguments:
ReplyDeleteDrain does not mean use all of it.
Draining someone alive is reason enough to be disturbed even without the possibility of killing her.
We don't know how much blood Sam needed to kill Lillith.
Amount needed to kill Lillith is different from the amount needed for Sam to be Lucifer's host.
Implication is not the same as proof and that isn't enough for me.
"He was "with" Dean as a partner, but he didn't support him. Watch the show, dude."
ReplyDeleteYes.He did support him .What he was against was what Dean conspired.You watch the show "dude".Sam can distinguish between what has happened and what is happening.
"Not only is it a poor excuse, you are backing them with poor
rationalizations. I don't have to cherrypick anything - Sam has
consistently shown the ability to keep fighting in the face of loss or
trauma. You keep making excuses like "he was a different guy then" and
"he's only human" and "people react differently" - but those excuses
only apply to out-of-character moments. That's the whole problem - Sam's
character is that of strength and perseverance and his action of giving
up is out-of-character. Whatever weak excuses you come up with doesn't
change that."
Not poor rationalizations.Unlike you I look at the situations in its complete form..
You have cherry picked because you have even now not told anything about the time between season 3 and 4 .
The thing is you have cherry picked Sam's reaction to fit your views .You are free to ..but that still is cherry picking.
He was a different guy, He is human are not excuses but are truths which apply to Dean , Bobby and any other human character from any show.
But since it looks like you need Sam to be one way to fit your narrative it is nothing surprising you will see them as excuses and not as human reactions or will resort to cherry picking so that Sam HAS TO react in some way.
In all those times he had reason to move now he did not have any reason.As I said Cherry picking and looking at the situations to fit some narrative seems to be a pattern.
"So Sam has survived losing his girlfriend, he has survived losing his
father, he has survived losing most of his friends, he ahs survived
losing his brother multiple times, he has survived hell - and he just
"breaks" because his brother disappeared? That does not fit at all."
Sam survived hell.Okay, "dude" you need to watch the show asap. If Sam "survived" what was it that Cas took on from sam.Death did not need to put a wall in Sam's head.
His brother "DIED". For Sam he was dead.
The thing is humans need time to process , come to terms with the trauma they have experienced. When his Brother DIED he had no one to turn to, No mission, So this situation was different.But Sam being a human , reacting like a human is an excuse.
"And what the hell does "breaking" even mean? "
If you want Canon meaning then I cannot give you that because that is the only thing the show has told me.
But by inferring from other shows I have watch it can mean many things ..Like person losing interest in things they normally love...or not wanting to do things that they like to do...or they become depressed etc... humans break when they reach the end of THEIR rope.The thing is you dont get to decide when they reached THEIR end of the rope.
"He couldn't handle hunting any more? Clearly that's not true, because he can handle it."
He could not .Dude watch the show .They showed that Sam could not...whether you like it or not that was what was shown.
"He can handle it"...very recently he said to Charlie that he would only do it with Dean. His handling it comes with conditions.He has stated it .It you do not give any weight to Sam's POV and only give credence to dean's ..like I have seen you do ..sam will definitely be a terminator.
Martin, we have reached the point in this discussion in which I actually think you (without meaning to be so) are being just dismissive.
ReplyDeleteI would have continued if you had said "I don't see it that way" to what I SAW as the thrust of the plot/action in those two episodes. To say EVERYTHING I say is "invalid" is dismissive.
It would be "invalid" if I said whenever I notice in the staging that Sam is wearing blue socks so that means Sam is taking a wrong turn would be INVALID. To say what "I" saw was a down JUNKIE who was siding with his supplier every step of the way, making every wrong decision INCLUDING breaking his "contract" with his brother, is invalid has begun to irk me. I don't think that was your intention, so we have reached an impasse in the discussion. You are not going to convince me Sam let the nurse live. My reasoning was given (I saw Sam being upset about Ruby's suggestion of taking blood from Cindy and NOT exorcising her, you have IMO made up a story about Sam drinking a little, exorcising her, and releasing her. You saw it that way. OK. I don't.
Martin, we have reached the point in this discussion in which I actually think you (without meaning to be so) are being just dismissive.
ReplyDeleteI would have continued if you had said "I don't see it that way" to what I SAW as the thrust of the plot/action in those two episodes. To say EVERYTHING I say is "invalid" is dismissive.
That's not what being dismissive means.
dis·mis·sive
feeling or showing that something is unworthy of consideration.
I have carefully considered all your arguments and found specific grounds for their rejection.
To say what "I" saw was a down JUNKIE who was siding with his supplier every step of the way, making every wrong decision INCLUDING breaking his "contract" with his brother, is invalid has begun to irk me.
This would be an example of an inductive fallacy (the specific name escapes me at the moment) and that's why this argument is invalid.
1. Sam has made a series of wrong choices - like getting addicted, siding with Ruby betraying his brother etc. - prior to this point.
2. So, faced with the choice with the nurse, he'd again make the wrong choice and kill her.
The trend of previous choices may imply a certain choice, but are not definitive evidence of that choice being made. This would be an invalid for of reasoning.
You are not going to convince me Sam let the nurse live. My reasoning was given (I saw Sam being upset about Ruby's suggestion of taking blood from Cindy and NOT exorcising her, you have IMO made up a story about Sam drinking a little, exorcising her, and releasing her. You saw it that way. OK. I don't.
I'm not interested in convincing you of anything.
I don't believe Sam killed her. I don't believe Sam saved her. I don't believe Sam let her go. I don't believe Sam left her there and she survived. My hypothetical scenario was just to present you with an alternative possibility. I know that one of those options must be true, but given that I haven't seen enough evidence for any one of them, I don't believe any one of them.
I disagree. Drain meant "all" in this case.
ReplyDeleteSam drained the nurse of all her blood, thereby killing her in his effort to avert the Apocalypse. That's how the story was presented. You are literally the ONLY person I have ever heard argue that she was NOT killed.
But, hey, if you want to believe she made it out of that situation alive, have at it!
"I disagree. Drain meant "all" in this case. "
ReplyDeletePlease provide evidence for that claim.
"You are literally the ONLY person I have ever heard argue that she was NOT killed. But, hey, if you want to believe she made it out of that situation alive, have at it!"
I didn't argue that nor do I believe it. But I don't believe your version either.
"Wrong. Sam didn't want any relationship beyond being hunting partners.
ReplyDeleteHe made that pretty clear everytime Dean tried to connect with him.
Pretty hard to be there for your brother when he keeps freezing you out
or walking away."
No he did not.Dean did not apologize for what he put Sam through .Just because dean wants to connect to Sam as brothers at that time ..which sam was not ready after what Dean did to him .
"Did you even read what you wrote? Sam kept hunting and killing demons -
even crossroads demons - after season 3 and kept trying to get Dean back
- the two things he gave up after season 7. Do you not see how these
two cases are completely opposite?"
As I said making Deals=/= hunting. killed Demon when demon refused deal.Demons attacked him so he defended himself.
"I;m sorry, I though you said those "truths" about breaking apply to Dean
and Bobby as well - and yet here you are giving excuses as to why they
don't apply to them. Try to stick to a story."
Now you are cherry picking my comments. Good .
I had also said that people react to different situations differently.But as I said you have a self serving narrative to push. ans it seems you have a bottomless bucket.
And what Sam went through dean and bobby did not go through that is also a truth.
"He wasn't catatonic, you moron, he had been doped up on drugs and had
just had demon-administered electroshock therapy. Given that, he was
remarkably lucid."
Where did I disagree with that .I just reminded you about the state Sam was in when castiel took those hell experiences from him.Was he lucid?
And yes good that you have resorted to name calling .
"He wasn't truly alone - he still had Jody and he could have gone to her.
Also, how did Sam figure out that Dean and Cas were dead? Did he get a
psychic vision? He just stupidly assumed that Dean and Cas were dead -
another OOC moment."
He was well and truly alone.Jody? you mean the repository of hunter knowledge.Sam's best friend and confidant.She is none of those.he other people too..if we go by that yardstick.but he was well and truly alone where it counted.i.e no close friends or trusted hunters.If you see Jody as something more well your interpretation and mine are different.even now after being so long in the show she is not Bobby, Rufus or for that matter Charlie.You are assuming that he stupidly assumed that.You , me and anyone else ..except for show runners do not know how he came to that conclusion.Now even if they show it ..I know your reply "well the writers made it up now realizing..."
"If you don't know how, when and in what way Sam broke, then you cannot
say that he broke at all. I say that Sam "breaking" is just an excuse
the writers cooked up when they realized how stupid it was that Sam
didn't look for hos brother or keep hunting."
All of these guesses fun let us all get together and pay the guessing game.
Wait dont tell me you are carver and you know what the writers did.
Now whether the writers thought it up at the last moment or not it is there in the show.
Sam broke.Take it or leave .It is canon.
If I do not know how when or the nature that does not mean I do not know that he did.
"Actually, Sam never said that he'd give up hunting and live a normal life if Dean were to die - that's just your imagination."
Okay now you are plain and simple lying.
But then again you resorted to name calling ..lying is your next step.
Please provide evidence for that claim.
ReplyDeleteThe evidence was in the episode. Just b/c it was not shown does not mean it did not occur. Sometimes, you don't need to show something happening to know it's happening. That was the case w/the nurse. Sam said he had to DRAIN the nurse (i.e., kill her). That's why he was hesitating and fretting over it so much.
If you choose to believe that didn't mean "of all her blood," go ahead. I disagree w/your interpretation.
I didn't argue that nor do I believe it. But I don't believe your version either.
Well, if you don't believe she survived, and you don't believe she's dead, then what do you think happened w/that nurse? What are we even discussing?
The evidence was in the episode. Just b/c it was not shown does not mean it did not occur. Sometimes, you don't need to show something happening to know it's happening. That was the case w/the nurse. Sam said he had to DRAIN the nurse (i.e., kill her). That's why he was hesitating and fretting over it so much.
ReplyDeleteIf you choose to believe that didn't mean "of all her blood," go ahead. I disagree w/your interpretation.
Repeating that the evidence was in the epsiode doesn't make it so. So far, you are just ASSUMING that when Sam said drain, he meant "kill" or "drain all".
Well, if you don't believe she survived, and you don't believe she's dead, then what do you think happened w/that nurse? What are we even discussing?
We are discussing if there is enough evidence to conclude if Sam killed the nurse - so far, I find it lacking.
No he did not.Dean did not apologize for what he put Sam through .Just
ReplyDeletebecause dean wants to connect to Sam as brothers at that time ..which
sam was not ready after what Dean did to him
Wrong on both counts. Dean did apologize and Sam kept shuttimg him out.
As I said making Deals=/= hunting. killed Demon when demon refused deal.Demons attacked him so he defended himself.
Killing demons = hunting.
Sam hunted and looked for Dean after season 3. He didn;t after season 7. Opposites.
Now you are cherry picking my comments. Good .
I had also said that people react to different situations differently.But as I said you have a self serving narrative to push. ans it seems you have a bottomless bucket.
And what Sam went through dean and bobby did not go through that is also a truth.
Do you even understand what the word means or do you simply like using it?
Where did I disagree with that .I just reminded you about the state Sam was in when castiel took those hell experiences from him.Was he lucid?
Yes, especially for someone who just had his brain fried. Even though he was hallucinating Lucifer non-stop and had who-knows-what in his system, he was still able to think clearly and know that his visions weren't real.
He was well and truly alone.Jody? you mean the repository of hunter knowledge.Sam's best friend and confidant.She is none of those.he other people too..if we go by that yardstick.but he was well and truly alone where it counted.i.e no close friends or trusted hunters.If you see Jody as something more well your interpretation and mine are different.even now after being so long in the show she is not Bobby, Rufus or for that matter Charlie.
Jody is a close friend and a trusted ally - as we saw quite clearly in the time-travel episode. She may not be Bobby, but she is as good as Rufus and she definitely better than Charlie.
You are assuming that he stupidly assumed that.You , me and anyone else ..except for show runners do not know how he came to that conclusion.Now even if they show it ..I know your reply "well the writers made it up now realizing..."
One of the first things Sam said to Dean was "You're freakin' alive" - meaning at some point Sam assumed that Dean was dead. And since we didn't see him looking at any point, he assumed it stupidly.
All of these guesses fun let us all get together and pay the guessing game.
Wait dont tell me you are carver and you know what the writers did.
Now whether the writers thought it up at the last moment or not it is there in the show.
Sam broke.Take it or leave .It is canon.
If I do not know how when or the nature that does not mean I do not know that he did.
I don't have to be Carver to know bad writing when I see it. Sam's actions between Seasons 7 & 8 were completely out-of-character and the writers made up poor excuses to to defend them. It was a great disservice to the character and they need to repair that damdage by having him make up for it.
Okay now you are plain and simple lying.
But then again you resorted to name calling ..lying is your next step.
I am done with you .I do not want any part of your name calling or lying. This is one of the first time i have commented here .It was fun while it lasted.
Show me the quote of Sam saying "he'd live a normal life". If you can't, that makes you a liar.