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Supernatural - Episode 10.22 - The Prisoner - Sneak Peek + Producer's Preview

May 12, 2015

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386 comments:

  1. Ambar Moreno CandelasMay 9, 2015 at 6:29 PM

    Castiel and Rowena! :O :S NOOOOO MY POOR SAMMY!! :´( The end... "NO" haha.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Kate EscobarMay 9, 2015 at 6:34 PM

    *buries head in hands*

    ReplyDelete
  3. ivanMay 9, 2015 at 6:46 PM

    Sam, Dean and Castiel better BUTCHER those SONS OF BITCHES!!!!!!!!!! i can't take this, Charlie was the sister Sam and Dean never had and they took her from them

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  4. LJMay 9, 2015 at 6:52 PM

    This is so dumb. Sam blaming himself for what happened to Charlie makes no frigging sense. The Stynes were coming after Charlie no matter what. They were after her for stealing the book, which happened weeks before Sam asked her to help crack the codex. She would have been safer if she'd just stayed put but she left herself vulnerable by going to the motel by herself. It basically boils down to Charlie being fridged for manpain, as if we don't already have enough of that on this show.

    ReplyDelete
  5. alien_alienMay 9, 2015 at 7:01 PM

    Ohhh. It really hurts. I am very worried about Sam, Charlie's death was not his fault.

    ReplyDelete
  6. dietcokebreakMay 9, 2015 at 7:47 PM

    I doubt he had much of choice, Dean does what Dean wants to do and no doubt he made Sam feel like crap for the whole Charlie saga so Sam wouldnt want to be around a Dean who looks at him like he's scum.

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  7. fazziemodoMay 9, 2015 at 7:57 PM

    Charlie was fridged for manpain just as much as Kevin was fridged for man pain.


    Sam blaming himself for it is equivalent as Dean blaming himself for Kevin.


    This just the turn around for Gadreel. The only difference is the reaction of the party having secrets kept from them. Sam was too ill to move after Kevin's death due to having needles in his head. Dean goes off to kill a load of alpha twats.

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  8. RobanahMay 9, 2015 at 9:47 PM

    "Eh, anyone going to tell me what is going on?" "NO!" haha poor Rowena.
    I get the feeling she will be sticking around for season 11. Hopefully not as annoying though. Her, Crowley, and Cas square off in the finale, I am betting that she kills Crowley, Cas, or both
    This should be an interesting episode. Can't wait :P

    ReplyDelete
  9. MissDaisy1776May 9, 2015 at 10:23 PM

    yeap... all said...

    ReplyDelete
  10. GingerMay 9, 2015 at 11:05 PM

    Oh, yes it was. Sam enlisted all of the Winchesters friends in his obsessed need to save Dean. His body count is up to three now. Charlie would have been safe, maybe, if she would have stayed with Cas, but Rowena was driving her batty and her need to save Dean led to her making bad choices, too, but Sam is the one that talked her into helping.

    ReplyDelete
  11. GingerMay 9, 2015 at 11:10 PM

    Charlie was an insignificant character that Thompson obsessed over and elevated to sister and hunter. In fact, she had 7 episodes and maybe spent a max of four or five days with the Winchesters. Not one of them even mentioned her name in the year she was off to Oz.


    Rowena has had 10 episodes and will have 12 by season's end. Metation has had 14. Kevin had 15. Charlie really was not that important in the scheme of the show, but I can't wait to see Dean go on a massacre. Been waiting a long time for that one.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Sabrina ElouardiMay 9, 2015 at 11:11 PM

    So you’re saying that Sam should be accountable for Charlie’s actions? I love Charlie, but she chose to help Sam and Dean. In the Book of the Damned, 10.18, the Stynes were already after Charlie. If she really couldn’t tolerate Rowena, she could’ve listened to some goddamn music or done something logical besides take the manuscript of a 1000+ year old book into a cheap motel and decode it there. As much as I love Supernatural, Charlie’s death was a result of bad writing and a series of construed, logical fallacies. Women get into fights with other women all the time, and not all of us go running into danger to help get rid of our irritation. Charlie’s death was Charlie’s fault. Sam was desperate to save Dean, Charlie made her own decision to help. If I were Charlie in that situation, I would’ve blatantly said no. Her death wasn’t Sam’s fault, because Sam doesn’t make decisions for her.

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  13. GingerMay 9, 2015 at 11:12 PM

    FINALLY, we are getting into a Winchester story. I am looking forward to the last two episodes of the season, especially since I have been pretty disgusted with S10 overall.

    ReplyDelete
  14. sharonallyMay 9, 2015 at 11:36 PM

    And why does he need to save Dean in the first place who put him in that position the simple fact is if Dean had not gone off and got the MOC to begin with then this scenario never would of arisen.

    It is abit rich to talk about Sam's obsession to save Dean and body counts just a year after what Dean did.

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  15. Martin AndersMay 10, 2015 at 12:09 AM

    Charlie didn't die because she chose to help them crack the codex - the Stynes were looking for her and would've killed her whether or not Sam had asked for her help.

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  16. chris684May 10, 2015 at 12:48 AM

    Yes. If Charlie had been killed by Rowena or the Book, then Sam would have played an indirect role. But the way the episode was written, had Sam never approached Charlie, and had Charlie spent the afternoon at a matinee instead, before refuting to her motel room, the result would have been the same. Bottom line - Charlie made a dangerous decision to take the books in an effort to save Dean, and her decision eventually caught up to her.

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  17. GingerMay 10, 2015 at 1:04 AM

    What I am saying is that Sam put all of their friends in danger and Charlie was a direct result of that. Yes, Charlie made her own choices. Free will has always been what the show is about. Yes, the Stynes chased her all over the world in an attempt to get the Book and she managed to stay ahead of them, but this episode started with Sam having called Charlie to help him. He instigated the deception and Charlie and Cas agreed to join in it.


    Same thing with Sarah. She killed herself, but Sam put her in danger of the Magnus' spell by tinkering with the box in his obsession to save Dean -- just like Charlie. Sam went in blind and Dean called him on it in narrative.


    Same thing with Lester. Sam duped a drunk Lester and, even though he did not intend the consequences, the consequences were a direct result of Sam's actions -- just like Charlie.


    It is a subjective, emotional statement to say that what happened was bad writing. The episode did what it was intended to do and my subjective feeling is that it was a good episode...and I am not a Nepotism Duo fan. I do think they do better than Thompson. I put him at the bottom of the writers list because NO TV network level writer should write such a blatant (and admitted) self-insert and Mary Sue character into a show. He should have learned that in Writing 101.

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  18. GingerMay 10, 2015 at 1:07 AM

    You don't know that, because that is not how the story unfolded. What we do know is that the Stynes were looking for the Winchesters, Sam put her in proximity to the Winchesters, she became frazzled because Rowena was a powerful witch and Charlie was obsessed to break the code to save Dean.

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  19. GingerMay 10, 2015 at 1:10 AM

    Why Sam feels the need to save Dean is a good question, since it is pretty obvious that Dean is doing just fine and there is absolutely no urgency to finding a "cure" for the Mark at this time.


    Dean was resigned to finding no cure, then he got all excited when Charlie found the Book, but when Jacob Styne told him the consequences of decoding the Bood -- biblical consequences -- Dean made the conscious decision that getting rid of the cure was not worth the damage that wold be done to humanity if he did so. That's why he told Sam to burn the book.


    Sam is being obsessive and desperate in his need to cure Dean, but why? I have asked that question for weeks now.

    ReplyDelete
  20. chris684May 10, 2015 at 1:25 AM

    Sam gave his friends a choice on whether they wanted to put themselves in danger to save Dean, and they all said yes. Agree with you on the woman in the Magnus episode. (Was her name Sarah though?). The others no. Lester died because he was a dick who was willing to sell his soul to kill his wife. Even Dean agreed he shouldn't live.

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  21. TawrensMay 10, 2015 at 1:25 AM

    Um Sam's actions are responsible for her dying. Once again Sam mucks up and Dean cleans up. Demon Dean was right Dean is an excuse that keeps Sam from manning up and cleaning up his screw ups.

    ReplyDelete
  22. TawrensMay 10, 2015 at 1:28 AM

    Actually no. Dean has never asked Sam to help. In fact he has repeatedly told Sam to leave it alone but Sam as usual never listens. When Dean asks for help Sam refuses and when Dean tells him hands off Sam has to get into it and muck everything up.

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  23. TawrensMay 10, 2015 at 1:30 AM

    Charlie died because of Sam. She wouldn't of died if she hadn't found the book of the damned and she wouldn't of been looking if it weren't for Sam telling her about it.

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  24. Miss SupernaturalMay 10, 2015 at 1:31 AM

    O.O Wow.

    ReplyDelete
  25. TawrensMay 10, 2015 at 1:31 AM

    Sam is responsible for her death but that'll be glossed over and Carver will get the writers to make it someone else's fault no doubt Dean's.

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  26. Miss SupernaturalMay 10, 2015 at 1:38 AM

    No. The Stynes were looking for Charlie. It's started at the start of this episode and, in her previous episode, Charlie confronted the ones Dean and Sam killed. Actually, it was Charlie who made the Stynes go after Sam and Dean.

    ReplyDelete
  27. LJMay 10, 2015 at 1:39 AM

    Please kindly lay off the crack rocks. Follow the damn narrative of the show.

    ReplyDelete
  28. LJMay 10, 2015 at 1:40 AM

    Yeah I can't really disagree with you there. Kevin was another unnecessary death on this show.

    ReplyDelete
  29. chris684May 10, 2015 at 1:51 AM

    I predicted that if Sam caused Charlie's death, that would stop him cold and cut short his activities with the book and his "dark arc," but I have to say I didn't see Sam NOT causing Charlie's death, but guilt over yet death cutting short his dark arc anyway, happening.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Miss SupernaturalMay 10, 2015 at 1:53 AM

    I don't think he's stopping. The episode pictures show Sam working with Rowena. I think something is going to happen and he ends up not stopping.

    ReplyDelete
  31. LJMay 10, 2015 at 1:54 AM

    Perhaps he gets Charlie's final email and that's what keeps him going? She did die trying to get that to him, it would seem pretty callous of him to just ignore it knowing her final wishes.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Sabrina ElouardiMay 10, 2015 at 1:54 AM

    So what is Sam supposed to do? Ignore his brother and let him run off the rails? They’re brothers for God’s sake. And as someone who has siblings, I can sympathize with Sam. I would move heaven and earth to find a cure for the Mark of Cain if my brother were in the same position. Sam isn’t Dean’s bitch baby — to reference Scandal; they’re brothers. Sam can listen to Dean’s advice, and weigh the risks.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Miss SupernaturalMay 10, 2015 at 1:56 AM

    That's one of things I'm thinking, yes.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Sabrina ElouardiMay 10, 2015 at 1:59 AM

    Dean, in 10.12, beat up Charlie’s evil half — and clobbered the good, innocuous version of Charlie in the process. THAT motivated Charlie to find the book. Sam didn’t coerce Charlie into going after the book. She was the one who introduced Sam and Dean to the book. Is Sam’s guilt understandable because of her death? Yeah, it is. He hates lying to Dean, and he got a fresh reminder as to how horrible the life is. But is Charlie’s death on his shoulders? No, it isn’t. Don’t blame Sam for Charlie’s death because the writers wrote her off sourly.

    ReplyDelete
  35. WilsonMay 10, 2015 at 5:51 AM

    I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Dean, Gadreel and Kevin situation from last season. I'm guessing that that was somehow Sam's fault too.

    ReplyDelete
  36. SeanMay 10, 2015 at 6:47 AM

    Dean put all their friends in danger the moment he took on the MOC. Were it not for Dean taking on the MOC then Charlie, Castiel and Sam would not be in a position to have to free Dean from the MOC. The consequences are as a result of Dean's direct actions. It was made clear in this episode they were doing to 'For Dean'.

    ReplyDelete
  37. SeanMay 10, 2015 at 6:48 AM

    Because he doesn't want his brother to become a monster?

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  38. SeanMay 10, 2015 at 6:49 AM

    So I guess she died because of Dean then because the BOTD is needed because of him.

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  39. SeanMay 10, 2015 at 6:50 AM

    I'm glad she's sticking around. I've grown to like Rowena.

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  40. NickMay 10, 2015 at 7:20 AM

    Very true. Charlie went in with her eyes wide open. She had a choice and she made it. She made the decision to leave the room and she paid the price for it.

    Kevin was given no information, he was given no choice. He had information deliberately with held from him (for no reason).

    ReplyDelete
  41. NickMay 10, 2015 at 7:22 AM

    Isnt it funny then that in earlier seasons they had to clean up because of Deans demon deal, then Dean breaking the first seal, then Deans quest to close the gates of Hell and now Deans decision to take on the MOC!

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  42. Martin AndersMay 10, 2015 at 7:30 AM

    Except, we do know that Eli Styne was tasked with finding the "mysterious red-headed gal" and to leave the Winchesters to Eldon. Given that Eli had nothing to do with the Winchesters, Charlie being found had nothing to do with her proximity to them.

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  43. Martin AndersMay 10, 2015 at 7:36 AM

    But Sam wouldn't have told her about the book if Dean hadn't gotten the Mark in the first place - so Charlie died because of Dean.

    But Dean woundn't have had the mark if not for Crowley - so Charlie died because of Crowley.

    But if Sam had killed Crowley and finished the trials, he wouldn't be around to tempt Dean - so Charlie died because of Sam.

    But if Dean hadn't talked Sam out of it... - so Charlie died because of Dean.

    And on and on and on....

    See how absurd it gets if you start blaming other characters for one's own choices and actions?

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  44. SeanMay 10, 2015 at 8:14 AM

    Isn't the 'muck up' they are trying to clean up after, Dean taking on the MOC?

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  45. AlineMay 10, 2015 at 8:35 AM

    Sam is the one who asked her to help. She said yes, for Dean. Sam didn't talk her into anything.


    The 'body count' includes Lester (who was trying to kill his wife), Suzi (who was responsible for the death of three people. It wasn't intentional but if you're holding Suzi's death against Sam then you need to hold her familys death against Suzi) and Charlie who made the decision to go off on her own, just as she made the decision to help with the MOC. The idea that she left because Rowena 'drove her batty' is silly. She could have used headphones and earplugs and that would have solved the Rowena problem.

    ReplyDelete
  46. AlineMay 10, 2015 at 8:51 AM

    He's not doing just fine. He is sticking his head in the sand and hoping it will all go away. There were biblical consequences of Cain taking on the MOC in the first place, but Dean wasn't too concerned about that so it's funny that he's all about the 'biblical consequences' now.


    You say there is no urgency to finding a 'cure' at this time. When would be urgency, after Dean has killed Crowley, Castiel and Sam, and more besides? Sam is working to stop biblical consequences from happening. He must because Dean has no interest in doing so.

    ReplyDelete
  47. sharonallyMay 10, 2015 at 8:51 AM

    Fine then Sam can just leave Dean alone with the Moc and go and find himself some peace and quiet away from this nioghtmare Dean created.


    However we both know that Dean made Sam feel guilt beyond hell itself for not looking for him in season 8 and seeing though he is in no position to ask for anything then Sam will continue to try and save Dean .

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  48. AlineMay 10, 2015 at 8:55 AM

    I believe that for some, yes, Sam is just supposed to ignore his brother and let him run off the rails. This will make Dean (temporarily) happy because he can become an unrepentant killing machine, as he was in Purgatory and as he was as a demon. Then next season, the same fans can complain about how Sam is to blame because he did nothing and so, he's responsible for Dean becoming an unrepentant killing machine!

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  49. AlineMay 10, 2015 at 8:58 AM

    She wouldn't have needed to find the Book of the Damned if Dean hadn't taken on the MOC!


    If you think about it, actions taken by Dean instigate an awful lot of the storylines on this show; selling his soul, wanting to close the gates of hell, taking on the MOC. Other people get sucked into dealing with events that are begun by Dean.

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  50. sharonallyMay 10, 2015 at 9:00 AM

    Dean can actually be a fault sometimes he is not that perfect . As for Charlie she knew what she was doing it was tragic what happened but she had her eyes wide open going it to it.

    If she had been totally unaware as in Kevin's case then that would of been different but she removed herself from protection and exposed herself to the danger that lurked out there.

    Sam was not guilty of Charlies death but will blame himself anyway.

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  51. AlineMay 10, 2015 at 9:01 AM

    Unlikely. Carver is Dean's biggest handwasher. We saw that from the moment he took over. So don't worry, even when things are Dean's fault, he won't be held responsible for anything. He never has been.

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  52. fazziemodoMay 10, 2015 at 10:19 AM

    Agree that Kevin had no choice where as Charlie did, but I disagree that it was Dean's fault as he didn't kill Kevin, it was Gadreel. Sure Dean introduced Gadreel into the situation and didn't tell anyone even though his information was faulty.


    But at the end of the day Gadreel didn't have to kill Kevin, Dean didn't introduce Gadreel into that situation knowing that Kevin's death was a possible outcome, Sam could have said No. So Gadreel himself is responsible for the kill. Kevin's death was a clusterf*ck but Gadreel and Metatron are the ones who bear the responsibility.


    As for Sam being responsible for Charlie, he is as responsible as much as Rowena is as Charlie knew the stakes. And what did Rowena do? Push some buttons as she was bored and Charlie instead of listening to some music to block her out ran away.

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  53. malooseMay 10, 2015 at 10:28 AM

    Actually Charlie wasn't even aware she was being chased b/c Sam didn't tell them he didn't burn the book. Jacob told him his family never stop looking for the book, so of course Charlie and themselves weren't out of danger yet.


    But still it doesn't matter, b/c Sam in his desperation couldn't know, like Dean didn't know Gadreel wasn't who he claimed to be. Both of the brothers didn't know, they just wanted to save each other. And in hyping up the tension, the writers killed a couple of close friends too. In both cases the death was hard on both of them and both of them felt guilty.

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  54. fazziemodoMay 10, 2015 at 10:29 AM

    Sam feeling guilty is because he isn't a monster, just like Dean feeling guilt over Kevin's death.


    Neither one pulled the trigger but Charlie supposedly getting the stakes (which I don't think she really did as Charlie was like it or not playing hunter most of the time) and Kevin not, doesn't change the fact that people the boys cared about because the boys were going for something they wanted. Dean cured or Sam healed.


    We can argue over Dean's responsibility too if you like as I don't feel Dean was responsible as he didn't have the full information as if he knew it was gadreel and not Zeke he may not have gone along and Sam could have said no. But at the end of the day Gadreel didn't have to kill Kevin, that is on him alone.


    But guilt, guilt is different than responsibility.

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  55. AlineMay 10, 2015 at 10:32 AM

    I don't believe it was said that it was Dean's fault. However, Dean does bear some responsibility. He brought Gadreel to the bunker and even when he deemed the situation desperate enough to warrant telling Sam (though I'm not sure why Gadreel giving a fake name is such a big deal because the Winchesters have been dealing in fake names since the Pilot), he still didn't tell Kevin to get out of there. Sure, Kevin might have died later on, especially if he was on Metatrons hitlist, but the way it played out Dean does bear some responsibility for Kevins death. No, he didn't know Kevin's death would be an outcome but he did know that having Sam possessed wasn't the right thing to do.



    And yes, if only Charlie had used a pair of earplugs then she might still be alive!


    There is a difference in the two situations. Dean sought only to stop Sam from dying. There was no larger cause or more lives at stake. He wanted him alive because he can't live without Sam. If Dean is not cured/saved then he can't die. He'll only get worse and cause more deaths.

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  56. fazziemodoMay 10, 2015 at 10:45 AM

    But Sam isn't wanting to cure Dean to prevent more deaths, he is doing so to prevent losing his brother. Dean has talked about ways to prevent him from causing more deaths as a Demon - smite him, throw him into the sun, lock him up in the bunker.



    Sam curing Dean now, is about Sam not living without Dean, not actually preventing deaths.


    As for Dean being responsible you can easily argue that Sam is also responsible because every time someone has been brought back from the brink in a miraculous manner something bad is going to happen. Sam knew that discussed it with head Death in those terms and still said yes to Dean.


    But at the end of the day Gadreel was the one that still killed Kevin at Metatron's bidding. Did Dean know that letting Gadreel in the bunker could lead to that, not as much as Sam knowing that working with the book would lead to bad things happening, but Charlie didn't have to run off because she got some buttons pushed.

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  57. dietcokebreakMay 10, 2015 at 1:25 PM

    I dont get why he would stop now, Charlie died to save Dean if Sam doesnt use the info she gave him and continue to try to save Dean then thats an incredible insult to her death. I dont think he will stop, the book thing has to play out till the end or Dean wont have a reason to go after Sam in the finale. Dean has to believe that killing Sam is for Sam's own good otherwise it wont fit the whole Cain and Abel parallel.

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  58. dietcokebreakMay 10, 2015 at 1:26 PM

    also it leave them at square one again and then we have the possibility of repeating this season all over again next year.

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  59. dietcokebreakMay 10, 2015 at 1:32 PM

    Just like Dean was responsible for Kevin's death but wait that was completely glossed over by Carver and Dean fans. Not forgetting the big difference here Kevin had no clue he was in danger while Charlie did, she knew the Steins were after her and still left the place she would be most protected. Charlie made her choice and got herself killed to save Dean where as Kevin was killed has no clue and died for no reason. It was only a season ago surely you cant have glosssed that over in your mind that quickly?!

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  60. dietcokebreakMay 10, 2015 at 1:34 PM

    its the look he gives him in the promo, that what I saw whether its blame or not I dont know guess we'll have to find out but that look Dean directs at Sam... besides its Dean looking at Sam like he's scum how does that equal hate on Dean? Though I dont disagree that I am not a fan of his at all.

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  61. percysownerMay 10, 2015 at 1:36 PM

    As for Dean being responsible you can easily argue that Sam is also
    responsible because every time someone has been brought back from the
    brink in a miraculous manner something bad is going to happen. Sam knew
    that discussed it with head Death in those terms and still said yes to
    Dean.

    No, Sam knows that bringing people back from ACTUALLY BEING DEAD has had horrible consequences. Deciding to not die when your brother says there is a cure works out. I mean they didn't just leave Bobby with a bullet in his head to die on the side of the road, they took him to a hospital and if there had been surgery or a treatment available they would have used it. Sam didn't know that what Dean was doing was supernatural, he just knew Dean found a way. That could have meant anything, including ending up in a wheelchair, like Bobby was for a while. Haven't you been arguing that Dean HAD to make the decision because Sam was suicidal and Dean was just preventing a suicide. NOW it's Sam's fault for not being suicidal?

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  62. percysownerMay 10, 2015 at 1:46 PM

    Someone did a recursive analysis like this and came up with it's all Azazel's fault, although I have to argue that if Lucifer wanted to show God that humans were corruptible and created Lilith and demons, none of this would have happened. So it's all Lucifer's fault.

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  63. fazziemodoMay 10, 2015 at 2:06 PM

    No he knows bringing people back mystically from the edge of death also comes at a great price - Faith. Dean was sick on the edge of death, not dead. How was he cured, another had to die. Dean in my time of dying, how did he survive, their Dad did a deal.


    Sure Cas and angels have brought people back without consequences but Sam didn't ask if it was the case here, it is all in the details and Sam knew that too.


    And I've never argued that Dean had to make the decision because Sam was suicidal. I've always said he made the decision to go along with Gadreel because he didn't want to lose Sam. Just that Sam never had to say Yes to anything if he was really so ready to die, if he was truly suicidal then he never needed to say no. If they were saying that he was really suicidal then show him as such by having him tell us that he could have just blown his brains out after Gadreel was out instead of just saying that he was ready to die and Dean stopped it while having a hissy fit and having him argue with Cas more when they were dragging the grace out.


    And it doesn't help the suddenly throwing in his whole thing about having Kevin's blood on his hands in the last episode of the seasons as it is past tying into the feelings of insecurity and guilt, pushing off being possibly suicidal by him putting it on Dean's shoulders more because he felt he couldn't cope with things. But doing it at the last minute makes Sam look like a bit of a dick, doing it to as much punish rather than a simple understandable way of coping with everything . If they had given us that Sam POV earlier then the purge speech and Sam's other feelings would have been more understandable to me.


    It was the dragging things out to the point Sam because they can't write him with a decent POV so making him a blobby mess is what I hated.

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  64. Miss SupernaturalMay 10, 2015 at 2:25 PM

    No, it's not the look Dean gives him in the promo. I didn't see it at all. It's where your mind went when you saw it because you don't like him.

    As for your hate for Dean, the tone of all your comments makes it very clear, so I'm glad that at last you didn't try to deny it. I try to ignore your hateful comments, but for some reason this one was over the top and I couldn't. I'll try to do better, though.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Miss SupernaturalMay 10, 2015 at 2:33 PM

    Dean was held responsible for a lot of things, including Kevin's death. The show blamed him, fans blamed him, Dean blamed himself. We saw it being said over and over again, including this very season.

    Was Dean to blame? I think so, a bit. But the show made it ALL his fault, which it wasn't. Nevermind the actual killer Gadreel who manipulated Dean threatening Sam's life and Metatron who asked for his death (and would find a way to kill him anyway).



    This is not a Dean vs Sam comment. If you read my comments you'll see that I love them both and I don't think Charlie's death is Sam's fault. My point is: Yes, the show hold Dean responsible plenty.

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  66. KsanaMay 10, 2015 at 2:39 PM

    IT is absolutely disgusting how some people here constantly turning every comment into Dean's hate. I haven't seen on this board that many Sam - related negativity, but Sam's fans are just all over the place spinning everything into SvD drama. Ugh

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  67. Miss SupernaturalMay 10, 2015 at 2:54 PM

    It's sad, really. Specially for fans who love both. It is possible to be a fan of both and defend one without dragging the other through the mud.

    I really should stop reading comments because they indeed upset me. The blame/hate Sam is getting over Charlie is too over the top, in my opinion and that's why I decided to engage discussion recently. I love that he's doing whatever for Dean, just like Dean did for him last season.

    Some fans say that Dean or Sam are hypocrites, which I don't deny, but I don't completely agree either. I think their problem is that they'll never see themselves as worthy of the others sacrifices while won't stop at the chance to save the other. They think the other holds the Sun while don't think themselves should be loved or saved or worthy to any sacrifice. That's why they'll always be opposite to being saved, but will never stop to save the other. They'll never learn how to be in each other shoes because they love the other so much and themselves so little.

    But fans... Fans could learn if they wanted. Dean fans chould understand where Sam's mind/reasons right now because it's where Dean's mind was last season. And Sam's fans could understand Dean's mind/reason because Sam was in similar situation before. Notice that I didn't say "agree", just "understand" enough to not hate either. But it's easier to blame and hate, I guess.

    I'm sorry for the long comment. :)

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  68. Miss SupernaturalMay 10, 2015 at 3:07 PM

    I love your whole comment so much. And the last line is like a punch in the gut as so true it is.



    Thank you!

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  69. GingerMay 10, 2015 at 3:14 PM

    Looking at it solely by what was shown, it was Charlie's stupidity that got her killed; however, as Sam told Dean once before, it might not have been his fault, but it was certainly his responsibility. He put Charlie into the situation, despite her misgivings about doing it.


    No, the ladies name in Magnus' episode was Suzie.


    Lester was a dick, but Sam was still responsible, because he duped a drunken Lester into helping him trap a demon so he could make a phone call -- not to rid the world of a demon or to save a host, but for the sole purpose of torturing her to get what he wanted. Dean killed Lester, because he was a dick, but in doing so, he saved Lester's wife and she married the guy she was screwing around with.

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  70. GingerMay 10, 2015 at 3:14 PM

    Dean took on the MoC because at that point he thought he was poison to everyone , he felt awful for Kevin's death, Sam had disowned him as a brother, and it was the only way to kill Abbadon, that KoH that was growing souls in a jar to build an army to take over both Hell and Earth...and I specifically remember narrative of Dean telling Sam more than once to not try to get the Mark off using the book because there would be biblical consequences...and I specifically recall that Dean did not know that Sam had enlisted Charlie and Cas, and I still don't think he is aware of Bobby.

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  71. Sammy.WMay 10, 2015 at 3:35 PM

    You really think Dean will kill Sam in the finale?

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  72. lala2May 10, 2015 at 3:36 PM

    But Sam actually isn't responsible for her death. Charlie's infinite stupidity is responsible for her death. She left a protected area for no legitimate reason. Sam never lied to her about the danger of the mission. She knew the danger and accepted it b/c she wanted to help Dean. It's not like she was missing key information.

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  73. lala2May 10, 2015 at 3:40 PM

    Hmm. . . I don't recall anyone but Dean blaming himself for Kevin's death last year. I know Sam and Castiel never told him it was his fault. The fans . . . well some fans, myself included, felt Dean was at fault, but I don't recall it being constantly talked about last year.

    I don't care for Sam v. Dean stuff either, but in my opinion, the writers tend to protect Dean's character more (i.e., decent writing, decent explanation of POV) than they do w/Sam. I love both characters equally but Sam, IMO, does get the short end of the stick when it comes to POV, which is vital when doing crazy things.

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  74. lala2May 10, 2015 at 3:44 PM

    I haven't watched this clip, but if you don't see disgust where someone else does, i guess that's just down to each person's interpretation. We won't all see things the same way, right?

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  75. Miss SupernaturalMay 10, 2015 at 3:55 PM

    I guess it's has to do with what someone feels.

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  76. lala2May 10, 2015 at 3:58 PM

    No, it wasn't. Sam told Charlie of the danger of the mission. She chose to accept it. That's on her. She also chose to leave a protected room b/c Rowena was getting on her nerves. She lied to Castiel and got him to move Rowena to another room (which should have made it easier for her to concentrate) and then she ditched the place. She got caught by someone who had been chasing her BEFORE she last hooked up w/Sam and Dean, and died.

    That was all on Charlie. This is not the same situation as w/Kevin last year.

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  77. lala2May 10, 2015 at 4:06 PM

    As others have mentioned, the Stynes were looking for both CHARLIE and the Winchesters separately. They have been hunting Charlies since she found the BOTD. Now, I haven't been paying that much attn but I believe Dean was made fully aware of Charlie's search for the BOTD. So, if we're gonna play the "blame game," then how is it not Dean's fault? If Charlie had never been looking for the book, the Stynes wouldn't have tracked her down after she found it.



    Why don't we place the blame where it lies: on Charlie. Charlie was dumb. She left an angel protector b/c Rowena was bothering her. Where is Charlie's trusty iPod? She also got Castiel to remove Rowena so she should have been fine. I thought they were gonna make Sam at fault but that's now how it was written. Charlie killed herself by being stupid.

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  78. Miss SupernaturalMay 10, 2015 at 4:06 PM

    The show always kept showing Kevin's death and then Dean blaming himself. Gadreel and Metatron part of it was completely handwaved, never talked about and they never showed any kind of regret at the killing. Not that I expected Metatron to, but I wish Gadreel had before his demise. In fact he blamed Dean while pushing his buttons when trying to expel him from Sam. And the blame was completely put on Dean's shoulders again this season.

    My comment was never about Sammy. I merely mentioned that yes, Dean is held accountable for his actions.

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  79. lala2May 10, 2015 at 4:11 PM

    While I agree w/you that Dean seems to be handling the MOC fine, I do understand Sam's desire to save Dean. As usual, there is no real story to back up Sam's actions, IMO, but that is a writing issue as I see it.


    The MOC story has been very poorly told. Sam is behaving as if Dean is in real danger but the writers aren't really showing the negatives effects the MOC has on Dean so it makes Sam's actions seem OTT.



    Again, I blame the writers for the poorly told story.

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  80. lala2May 10, 2015 at 4:20 PM

    By this logic, every single person the boys are to be blames for the deaths of every single person they've asked to help them: Ellen, Jo, Ash, Rufus, Bobby, and Pamela. I'm not sure why those people aren't responsible for their own personal choices.



    Charlie made a choice. She chose to help Dean. She died. That is on her and no one else.

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  81. lala2May 10, 2015 at 4:23 PM

    Actually, Kevin's death is on Dean whereas Charlie's death is not on Sam. Dean was fully aware that Sam was not being possessed by "Ezekiel." Kevin asked him what was wrong and Dean didn't tell him to watch out for Sam. He didn't clue Kevin in that something was wrong w/Sam, so Kevin just approached Sam like he normally would and he was killed. Kevin's death is completely on Dean.

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  82. lala2May 10, 2015 at 4:27 PM

    But Dean was responsible. When Kevin asked him what was going on, Dean had a responsibility to tell Kevin that Sam had been possessed by a rogue angel and to watch out for Sam. If he didn't want to say that, he could have told Kevin to go to a warded area b/c something big was happening. If Kevin had been made aware that something was wrong w/Sam, he may have avoided Sam. I'm not saying Gadreel still wouldn't have killed him, but I think he deserved to know an enemy was in their midst.

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  83. lala2May 10, 2015 at 4:40 PM

    I agree w/you that guilt and responsibility are different. And while I may not think Sam should feel guilt over Charlie's death, I completely understand why he would. He's a good guy and will feel bad she died helping him. That's the Winchester way.

    He should not, however, feel responsible for her death. He gave her all the possible knowledge he had re: the mission. She knew the risks. He even told her she would be working w/a dangerous witch. Charlie, after getting all the info, made the decision to join the mission and help save Dean.

    Kevin, on the other hand, was given no knowledge that something might be wrong. He wasn't warned about Sam or told that there was a danger in the bunker. IMO, Dean had a duty to tell Kevin these things. He had a responsibility to give Kevin all the knowledge he might need. Dean chose to not tell Kevin anything, and Kevin died. He should feel both guilty and responsible, IMO.

    And just to be clear - I do not hate Dean. I just feel he was responsible for Kevin's death. If Sam had lied to Charlie or deceived her in some way and then she died helping him, I would have thought he was responsible for her death.

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  84. lala2May 10, 2015 at 4:43 PM

    You're honestly faulting Sam for something he did while in a coma and on the brink of death?

    Do you also not believe Dean tricked Sam into saying yes? I know some ppl don't think Dean tricked Sam so I'm just wondering if that's what you believe.

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  85. fazziemodoMay 10, 2015 at 5:07 PM

    Yes Kevin, when the sigils went up, should have been told but Gadreel is responsible, he killed him. But would it have that mattered? Dean had half the story as Dean didn't know that Kevin himself was in actual danger from Gadreel because he was an actual target and not simply at risk of being a case of collateral damage until the bit of paper .


    But saying Dean is still as much as responsible for Kevin is like saying Sam is responsible for Charlie as Sam didn't call Charlie and Cas the second Steins was known to be in play or the fact the guy could walk after ripping his arm off..


    He told Cas people were looking for her not they were the same people who were after the book or that they were in town. He didn't tell either when he found out what they were capable of when he found out even though he knew the Stein's were in play in the area. - Dean was out looking all it would have taken was a call to both Cas and Charlie to warn them because all the warding on that building would have done squat against the Steins. They had Rowena - she could have put Warding on the building that may have worked against the Steins.


    Also if he'd have called he would have found out Charlie was gone and done something instead of having Cas babysit Rowena because Sam told her he couldn't leave her alone making it sound like she was the priority not Charlie's safety. His omission to tell Cas means Cas couldn't make the decision to go look for Charlie. So Sam's omissions to Cas and Charlie make him as much responsible for Charlie's death as Dean's not telling Kevin to avoid Sam makes him responsible for Kevin's


    But at the end of the day neither Sam or Dean pulled the trigger it was someone else. They can feel guilt but ultimately neither are responsible because neither Stumpy Stein or Gadreel had to kill.

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  86. fazziemodoMay 10, 2015 at 5:16 PM

    Gadreel is responsible. He killed Kevin, nobody else and he didn't have to

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  87. fazziemodoMay 10, 2015 at 5:25 PM

    Sam said yes because he was capable of making a decision. We saw him rationalising his decisions in his head so saying yes was a rational decision.


    Did he know that bringing people back miraculously have a huge price? Yes. Did he ask Dean no - why is Sam not asking details when he knew they were a possibility even when in a coma (as with his talk with head Death showed) be on Dean?


    I don't simply believe that it is as simple as saying Dean tricked Sam when Sam in a lot of respects didn't ask for the information that he knew he should be asking for. He yes to something that wasn't a doctor and drugs, and unlike say Jimmy when he first said yes to Cas, he knew that saying yes to anything in the world he lives may not mean a musical number at the end.


    You can say he trusted Dean, yes but blind trust doesn't get you out of being responsible for asking questions you know you should be asking. And the one thing Sam has been asking Dean is to treat him like an adult, and being an adult is knowing and being responsible for when to get the information - Sam knew a price could be leaved, he just didn't ask what it could be.

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  88. TawrensMay 10, 2015 at 5:33 PM

    Yeah he is because he brought her in on this regardless of whether she left or not and wouldn't you leave with the annoying witch ?

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  89. TawrensMay 10, 2015 at 5:37 PM

    Dean wasn't responsible for Kevin's death Ezekiel was and used Sam to do it and no Dean DID NOT TRICK YET HE IS BLAMED FOR IT. Charlie didn't know the Stynes were still searching for her due to her believing Sam had burnt the book oh but that's right Sam didn't burn it.

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  90. TawrensMay 10, 2015 at 5:40 PM

    Very likely because Carver has made no bones about hating Dean and worshipping the ground Sam stands on. At Comic con Carver told a fan who asked if Sam could not be sick or in danger and Carver responded with, "No that would be boring like Dean."

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  91. GingerMay 10, 2015 at 5:40 PM

    Charlie getting killed was because of her own stupidity; yes, but Sam is responsible for it and we have already seen in the sneak peak that Sam does hold himself responsible.


    The fact is that Kevin's death drove the story forward and so did Charlie's; therefore, both deaths were fitting for the story being told.

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  92. TawrensMay 10, 2015 at 5:41 PM

    Of course everyone but Sam is responsible because Saint Sam can do no wrong.

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  93. TawrensMay 10, 2015 at 5:43 PM

    Actually she didn't need to find the book at all if Sam hadn't insisted on ignoring Dean's order to let it go. Dean told Sam he's ok with it. Sam insists on finding a cure despite Dean telling him not too.

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  94. TawrensMay 10, 2015 at 5:45 PM

    Dean has repeatedly told Sam to leave it alone but Sam has repeatedly insisted on pushing for the cure.

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  95. TawrensMay 10, 2015 at 5:45 PM

    No because Dean has repeatedly told him to let it go and Sam has repeatedly ignored it.

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  96. GingerMay 10, 2015 at 5:47 PM

    But the question is, is it disgust for Sam or Dean majorly pissed off at Sam? It could be that Dean is pissed off at the Stynes and that's his murderous look in deciding to go after them. Nobody knows which it is at this point so; yeah, your assumption is a little premature and shows bias. I do agree, though, that everyone sees things in different ways.

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  97. sharonallyMay 10, 2015 at 5:48 PM

    Sam has done plenty wrong it is just sometimes he is not to blame for something actually happening.
    You talk about Saint Sam when you can not even admit that Dean can be at fault ever but look to blame Sam in every instance

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  98. TawrensMay 10, 2015 at 5:48 PM

    Nope Sam chose to quit the trials. Sam chose to ignore Dean's wish not to find the cure . Sam has snuck around behind Dean's back bringing Cas and Charlie into finding the cure despite Dean telling Sam to leave it alone.

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  99. TawrensMay 10, 2015 at 5:50 PM

    Sam chose to close the gates of hells and Dean broke the 1st seal but Sam release Lucifer by trusting a demon.

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  100. TawrensMay 10, 2015 at 5:53 PM

    No Sam ignored Dean's wish to leave it alone. Sam found the BOTDA despite Dean saying leave it be. Dean refused to use BOTD and ordered it burned but Sam called in Charlie, Cas and Rowena. Sam's actions brought about the death because it is Sam who called them in and chose to ignore Dean's wish to burn it.

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  101. TawrensMay 10, 2015 at 5:55 PM

    Sam chose to be possessed an no Dean didn't trick him. Gadreel took Dean's face and said he had a plan. Sam asked what was the plan. Gadreel asked if that was a yes and Sam said yes.

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  102. lala2May 10, 2015 at 5:59 PM

    I honestly can't remember many comments re: Kevin's death. I remember Dean saying Kevin's death was on him and that he would burn for it, but that's all. Did they discuss Kevin's death this year? I don't recall. Honestly, this entire season has been very boring to me so it is entirely possible that I have forgotten the Kevin mentions.

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  103. TawrensMay 10, 2015 at 5:59 PM

    Yes it is because he called Charlie in to work on the book. He may hate lying to Dean but he's doing just that lying. Dean told him to burn the book and he pretended to burn it. He knows anything out of that book will have biblical responses and yet he is pursuing it because as Sam says he can't, he won't. Sam is awfully concerned with Sam's needs

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  104. TawrensMay 10, 2015 at 6:03 PM

    Sam could of cared less in Purge. Said himself partners nothing more and now despite claiming being brothers instead of asking if Dean was alright he demanded Dean prove he had to kill Randy, etc. He's sneaking behind Dean's back, bad mouthing Dean and doing what he could to make Dean look bad.

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  105. GingerMay 10, 2015 at 6:03 PM

    Dean is already a monster in SPN terms, because the Mark is a supernatural thing and Dean has it. It is supposed to do...something...but I haven't figured out what it is, what it does exactly, how it works on the soul or the person, or what the purpose is. Cain handled it quite well for well over 150 years. So far, Dean seems to be handling it just fine -- better than he did in S9. Dean presents no clear and present danger, except in Sam and Cas' mind, as far as I can tell.

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  106. TawrensMay 10, 2015 at 6:06 PM

    I am following the narrative. You apparently aren't. Dean said burn the BOTD but Sam doesn't and calls in Cas, Charlie and Rowena behind Dean's back. He's talking smack behind Dean's back. He's more concerned with his needs of not being left alone then with Dean surviving.

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  107. Sabrina ElouardiMay 10, 2015 at 6:12 PM

    If Sam were concerned with his own needs, he would’ve continued to play house with Amelia in season 8. Sam has, and always will, make Dean a priority. Do we even watch the same show, cher? Because, tbh, it sounds like you selectively watch the show and review the scenes that only further your subpar argument.

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  108. Martin AndersMay 10, 2015 at 6:14 PM

    He wouldn't have quit the trials if Dean hadn't asked him to. He wouldn't have to ignore Dean's wish if Dean could control his violent urges. And he wouldn't have to sneak behind Dean's back if Dean had been more considerate and supportive of his search for the cure.

    Your view seems to be that Sam is responsible for the bad things resulting from his choices and that he is responsible for the bad things resulting from others' choices as well - basically, everything bad that happened is Sam's fault. This view is not only biased, its wrong.

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  109. GingerMay 10, 2015 at 6:15 PM

    Charlie made a choice and it was hers. It might not have been Sam's fault, but it certainly was his responsibility. He put Charlie into the situation, despite her misgivings about doing it. If everyone was responsible for their own lives, and theirs only, I could buy that Charlie and only Charlie caused her own death, but that is not how the world or humans work. The SPNverse would certainly be an incredibly unbelievable place to dwell if selfishness and narcissism were the rules to live by.

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  110. Martin AndersMay 10, 2015 at 6:16 PM

    Both things are one and the same - Sam not being alone is the same thing as Dean surviving.

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  111. lala2May 10, 2015 at 6:18 PM

    He didn't bring her in on anything. She offered to go search for the BOTD a few episodes back. Sam and Dean couldn't have stopped her. She found the book. She had the Stynes chasing her. Sam asked for her help. He gave her all the info she needed. She DECIDED to help him. She made that choice. She could have refused to help him but she didn't. She decided to help b/c she wanted to help Dean. She made the choice. She chose to leave a protected area. She died. Her death is her own fault.


    But if you're determined to blame Sam then that is what you will be determined to do.

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  112. sharonallyMay 10, 2015 at 6:18 PM

    Of course he has what did you think he was going to do stand there going ok then that because Dean says so it is law. That Sam is obliged to adhere to Dean's wishes while Dean tramples over his.
    Who cares what Dean wants he created this mess , he has guilt tripped Sam for not 'going out and doing the same' in saving him , he spited at Sam last year after the Purge over his belief Sam would not go to the same lengths and now it is all dont do as I do but do as I say from him.



    He got what he wanted he needs to stop acting like a idiot .

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  113. Sabrina ElouardiMay 10, 2015 at 6:20 PM

    Because Dean sort of seduced Sam into the concept being possessed by Gadreel, lied to him about it when he was more conscious. Like it or not, Sam isn’t going to be Dean’s soldier, cher. Judging from all your comments, you expect him to be some mindless, all beef-and-no-brains type of person that will obey Dean’s every order and command. The show has never been like that, and truth be told, it never will.

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  114. lala2May 10, 2015 at 6:21 PM

    Dean most definitely did trick Sam into saying yes. Even Dean said he tricked Sam. I completely understood why Dean tricked him, but I find it funny that Dean's hardcore fans are always so reticent to call it a trick. It was a trick. It was understandable, IMO, but it was a trick nonetheless.


    I guess you guys must think it makes Dean look bad. IMO, it makes him human, but that's just me.

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  115. lala2May 10, 2015 at 6:27 PM

    You talk about Saint Sam when you can not even admit that Dean can be at fault ever but look to blame Sam and paint him the one in the wrong in every instance.


    I know, right? Sam is even to blame for the unconscious decisions he made while in a coma and on the brink of death! Haha! It's ridiculous. I remember finding it equally silly when people Dean for breaking the first seal. He was being tortured in Hell at the time so I'll give him a pass. LOL!

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  116. lala2May 10, 2015 at 6:33 PM

    I'm not sure, Sheri. I'll have to decide when I watch the episode. Maybe it is a combination of both? Who knows?


    I actually have no opinion on this since I didn't watch the clip. I am not assuming anything so I'm not sure why you think I'm being biased. I'm simply stating that Miss Supernatural can't say someone else can't see disgust on Dean's face. If that's how that person interpreted the scene, then that's how they interpreted. Now, if Dean were to definitively state he wasn't disgusted w/Sam or whatever, then it wouldn't be left open to interpretation. Many people can watch the same scene and come away w/different meanings, etc. That happens all the time.

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  117. lala2May 10, 2015 at 6:37 PM

    I understand, but at the end of the day, people will think what they want. I feel there are fans out there will interpret everything Sam does in a negative way. I remember reading negative interpretations of Sam giving Dean the amulet in AVSC. Similarly, there are those will will always put a negative spin on what Dean does.


    I've always felt that to truly enjoy this show, one must like both brothers. You can favor one over the other, but if you downright hate one of the brothers, then I can't see how this show would be enjoyable. I happen to love both brothers equally so I have no problem calling either out when I feel they have done something wrong. Before Carver came on as showerunner, I enjoyed the show for the most part, and I think that is largely b/c I have no favorite.

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  118. lala2May 10, 2015 at 6:49 PM

    I disagree. Once Sam gave her all the info, he did his job. He warned her of the danger. That is what he should have done. He got an ANGEL to protect her. He did everything he possibly could to ensure her safety. That was all he could do. It was up to her to make her own choice. She chose to help him. He didn't blackmail her or force her to help him. She decided that Dean was worth the risk. She had every right to make that decision. How does that make Sam responsible for her death?!?! Plus, she also chose to leave her protection, and she died. That's on her.


    Anyway, we should just agree to disagree b/c I will never feel Sam was responsible for her death. As I said, if Sam is responsible for her death, then Sam and Dean are responsible for the deaths of every single person they have ever asked to help them who have died. I'm not willing to put all those deaths on their heads. None of these people were duped or deceived into helping them. They all went in with "eyes wide open."

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  119. lala2May 10, 2015 at 6:53 PM

    And Gadreel would have never been in Sam's body if Dean hadn't tricked Sam into saying yes.


    The point is Dean should have told Kevin to watch out for Sam. He should have warned Kevin that something was wrong w/Sam. He had that responsibility to Kevin since Dean created the situation in the first place.


    We should just agree to disagree though. Dean is completely at fault for Kevin's death in my mind. That doesn't mean I hate Dean b/c I do not, but I do hold him solely responsible for Kevin's death. If he had warned Kevin, I would have felt better about the situation, but he lied to Kevin when Kevin flat out asked what was going on. That was wrong, IMO.

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  120. lala2May 10, 2015 at 7:01 PM

    I disagree. For me, the difference is in the passing along of vital information.


    Here, Sam passed along the vital info to Charlie. He told her he didn't burn the book. He told her Dean didn't know what he was doing. He told her it was dangerous. He told her she would be working w/a dangerous witch. He told her Castiel - an angel - was being brought in to protect her. She knew everything she needed to know, IMO. She knew the risks. She chose to assume those risks to help Dean. The fact that she chose to leave a protected place where an angel was protecting her is not Sam's fault. It's not something he could have predicted or foreseen. She went off on her own and died. That's on her, IMO.


    In the Kevin situation, Dean didn't even warn Kevin to watch out for Sam. Dean knew the angel possessing Sam had lied to him. He also knew that that angel could potentially run into Kevin before he saw him. He owed Kevin the truth about the sigils and what was happening so Kevin could protect himself. Given that he was worried enough to mark the room so he could speak to Sam and get Sam to eject the angel, you'd think he would alert Kevin to the danger. The fact that he didn't makes him responsible in my eyes.

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  121. lala2May 10, 2015 at 7:03 PM

    Okay. So Sam is at fault in your eyes for his possession. All right . . . well thanks for answering!

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  122. Martin AndersMay 10, 2015 at 7:20 PM

    Sam did ask for information. The first thing he did after Dean's big speech was to ask "What do I do?". Even before that he kept asking Dean what the plan was. Sam's "yes" wasn't "yes, do whatever you want", it was "yes, I'll give it a shot depending on what the plan is".

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  123. fazziemodoMay 10, 2015 at 7:22 PM

    But he didn't tell Cas or Charlie that he had gotten vital info on the people who were hunting her or that they were in town.


    Cas can't protect squat properly if information is withheld and Sam withheld just like Dean did with Kevin. He doesn't know if the Steins were part demons, monsters or witches. He doesn't know they are possibly closing in, Sam does. In that situation in grand scheme the person he needed to protect was Charlie. Rowena is more than capable of looking after herself in a flat out confrontation with the Steins if Cas uncuffs her, but Cas was told staying with her was the propriety not looking after Charlie.


    Would he have been more vigilant over Charlie if he had known? Who knows but the info helps his decision making as you said.


    As for Charlie, yes she knew things were dangerous, but not that the danger was imminent, with that info she may have changed her behaviour and so could have protect herself like you say Dean should have given Kevin the opportunity in your eyes.


    If one is responsible for one, then the other is responsible for the other. That is the way the show is setting this up. Dean is as responsible for Kevin's end as Sam is for Charlie's.

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  124. Martin AndersMay 10, 2015 at 7:28 PM

    Once Sam had that vital info about the Steins, he did pass it along. When Cas called him about letting Charlie loose, the first thing Sam did was to tell him that he couldn't because there were dangerous people looking for her and that he couldn't leave Rowena alone either. He didn't withhold anything. That is why Sam is less responsible for Charlie's death that Dean for Kevin's.

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  125. fazziemodoMay 10, 2015 at 7:29 PM

    'What do I do?', isn't a 'What is the plan?' It is what do I do in the plan.


    Sam could have asked for clarification of the plan before confirming it was a yes, depending on the plan. But he looked at Death and when asked is that a 'yes' he said 'yes'


    Dean didn't force him and as Death said 'it is up to Sam to decide' this is a Sam who had moments before talked about not coming back if it hurt others so he knew that was a possibility without clarification but he still said Yes.

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  126. fazziemodoMay 10, 2015 at 7:36 PM

    He didn't tell Cas that him and his brother had just caught one and that meant the dangerous people who were after Charlie were in town and they didn't know their numbers as Dean had just dealt with two. He didn't call Cas when one ripped off his arm and had taken a walk, which meant he could because if he had he would have found out Charlie had ran a lot sooner. Dean went looking for the one armed man and in that time Sam found out a lot about the Frankensteins, but are you saying that there wasn't enough time to pick up a phone to Cas and tell him any of this or to see if Rowena knew about the Steins at all?


    The information the Steins were on the doorstep may have changed Cas' decisions, Sam ommitted because his focus was elsewhere. just like Dean omitted from Kevin because his focus elsewhere.


    Both brothers can be guilty about the deaths but that doesn't make them ultimately responsible for them because as I said neither Eldon or Gadreel had to kill.

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  127. Martin AndersMay 10, 2015 at 7:38 PM

    That's quite wrong. The part that was "up to Sam" was whether to go with Death (die right then) or stick around a little longer to give Dean a chance to save him. As far as Sam knew, there was no plan. In fact, as far as he knew, the Dean in front of him was just a figment of his subconscious and the real Dean was somewhere out in the real world trying to come up with something. He didn't say yes to any possible plan because he didn't know if there was a plan at all, he said yes to giving Dean a chance and considering whatever he could come up with.

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  128. fazziemodoMay 10, 2015 at 7:40 PM

    In my eyes, in part, yes he was. Dean may have opened the door and be wrong afterward but that doesn't change the fact that Sam willingly invited Gadreel in. Because as Head Death said 'It is Sam's decision.'


    I understand your position but that is mine.

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  129. fazziemodoMay 10, 2015 at 7:46 PM

    Death was a figment of Sam's imagination too as shown by Tessa and Kevin. Metatron closed heaven and souls weren't being reaped they were trapped in the veil. Sam being a Winchester doesn't mean the veil was open to him and him alone.


    As far as Sam knew there was no plan - so ask what Dean was on about. Ask how he can stick around. With what Sam has experienced he knows those are questions to ask especially in light of him bargaining with Death to prevent his resurrection having knock on consequences.


    'It's Sam decision,' meant it was Sam's decision. Did he want to live or die. Does he know the possible consequences and is he willing to go with that - that is up to him to find out too.

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  130. Martin AndersMay 10, 2015 at 7:49 PM

    "There is no way Charlie can go off by herself. Cas, there are dangerous people looking for her". How much clearer could he get? That's the gist of the information he had at the moment - he didn't know that they were actively looking for Charlie. What he did know was that the ones in town were after him and Dean and Dean had killed one and caught the other. Adding superfluous information ("btw, there is a one-armed guy running around the town") wouldn't have changed anything. Cas would've still taken Rowena to the other room to chain her up and Charlie would've still snuck out. If Cas didn't tell her "don't go anywhere because there are dangerous people looking for you", he wouldn't have told her "don't go anywhere because there are dangerous people looking for you one of whom is a one-armed guy running around in the streets".

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  131. fazziemodoMay 10, 2015 at 7:56 PM

    "There is no way Charlie can go off by herself, Cas. There are dangerous people looking for her. Dean just got into a fight with two of them. One is dead and the other is chained up here. We don't know how many others there could be'


    That clearer for you? As for Sam knowing if they were the ones actively looking for Charlie - Eldon commented on the fact that Dean had the mark and mentioned the book before Sam and Cas talked. Credit Sam with some intelligence of knowing the guy was with the same group and they'd jump at the chance to get Charlie and the book if they had the chance.


    Also later after Eldon escaped. 'Cas, look after Charlie. We've lost the one we had here. He ripped off his arm and walked Cas. He is more than a human and said he is a Frankenstein. We still don't know if there are more skulking around and they may be coming for the book.'

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  132. percysownerMay 10, 2015 at 8:03 PM

    Oh My God! For the last two years you have argued that Dean HAD to do what he did with Gadreel because Sam was SUICIDAL and Dean had to do an suicide intervention. NOW, you are arguing that Sam wasn't suicidal enough so Dean is completely without responsibility. This is the hugest double standard that I have ever seen.

    Look, you are going to blame Sam whatever he does. Just say I hate Sam, whatever you say I will find a way to twist the facts to make him look bad and MOVE ON.

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  133. Martin AndersMay 10, 2015 at 8:09 PM

    "There is no way Charlie can go off by herself, Cas. There are dangerous people looking for her. Dean just got into a fight with two of them. One is dead and the other is chained up here. We don't know how many others there could be'

    That clearer for you?

    No more than "There is no way Charlie can go off by herself, Cas. There are dangerous people looking for her. "

    Like I said, the rest of the information is superfluous.

    As for Sam knowing if they were the ones actively looking for Charlie - Eldon commented on the fact that Dean had the mark and mentioned the book before Sam and Cas talked. Credit Sam with some intelligence of knowing the guy was with the same group and they'd jump at the chance to get Charlie and the book if they had the chance.

    They were actively looking for the book - which was hidden from them and in custody of an angel. The Stynes looking for Charlie was an educated guess - at best - at that point and Sam warned Cas about it.

    Also later after Eldon escaped. 'Cas, look after Charlie. We've lost the one we had here. He ripped off his arm and walked Cas. He is more than a human and said he is a Frankenstein. We still don't know if there are more skulking around and they may be coming for the book.'


    More superfluous information - Sam expected Cas to keep Charlie with him and expected him to be capable of handling any Stynes. These details don't change any of that.

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  134. fazziemodoMay 10, 2015 at 8:15 PM

    Percy, you are getting me mixed up with someone else if you think I have said Dean had to intervene because Sam was suicidal. Either that or you have been misreading my posts.


    I have said in the past that Dean didn't stick his hand up Sam's ass and do a ventriloquist act to get Sam to say yes. Also, I have said I wish someone would get Sam to shove a gun infront of him and tell him to shit or get off the pot with regard to holding onto being ready to die and Dean stopping him. But I have never said Dean had to help with the angel possession as Sam was suicidal. I actually complained that him giving up the trails meant he wanted to live and he told Dean that, then they were trying to paint that he wanted to die? WTF?


    I've moaned about the lack of POV or it being misplaced - the bit about having Kevin's blood on his hands, should have been earlier. Would have humanised him and made the purge less like Sam acting like a jerk punishing Dean but more like Sam pushing the blame onto Dean because he couldn't cope.


    But if you want to think I hate Sam fine, I am not going to change your mind.

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  135. fazziemodoMay 10, 2015 at 8:26 PM

    If Sam had given the 'superflous' info to Cas and Charlie their actions would have been informed.


    Know danger is possible and it being possibly right over the hill are two different things. That means Charlie would get the risk was higher than she thought. Cas is a soldier tactically he would have acted differently because up until Charlie left he was there primarily to referee between Charlie and Rowena not protect Charlie remember. Both may have acted differently such as Charlie may not have run if they are right in town or she would have made sure she didn't stop in town for them to catch her. Cas get the place ready for attack by monsters instead of simply relying on the sigils on the walls.


    As for Sam giving the superflous info about the guy with the arm. As I said Cas kind of thinks these guys are human - walking away without an arm, two hearts and extra muscle makes them monsters. Cas may have to act differently if he has to fight. Him calling about the guy with the arm may have meant he found out about Charlie sooner and he could have called Charlie if she was blanking Cas to find out where she was sooner.


    Sam not telling his supposed to be equivalent to Dean not telling Kevin about the sigils. he knows something is up but Gadreel hadn't made a move on Kevin at that point, Dean didn't think Gadreel knew about the sigils so why tell Kevin.


    Because like with the Steins the info would have allowed people to make informed choices.


    Still doesn't make either brother ultimately responsible for either death as they didn't kill either person but it makes their guilt understandable.

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  136. fazziemodoMay 10, 2015 at 8:34 PM

    Its not "did he want to live or die" - its "did he want to live a bit longer or die then and there". Big difference between the two.


    Well if he wants to live he has to say 'yes' true. But he still knows that there is a possible price. The skipping around it, doesn't mean we get over the fact that Sam knowing about that there is a possible price and the 'What do I do?', it isn't the same as 'how do I?'


    And as for the reapers, Tessa going on about not being able to do her job because they are now proper angels (sucks big ones I know!). They weren't reaping full stop. As for Death being a figment, the actor playing Death said he thought it was a figment of Sam's imagination as he wasn't eating.


    But I guess we aren't going to agree, I respect that.

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  137. sharonallyMay 10, 2015 at 8:38 PM

    No he did not he just used Gadreel to trick Sam into saying yes if both Angel and Dean were being straight forward and upfront then Sam would not need to be asking for the finer details of the 'plan' .However because both Angel and Dean knew Sam would not say yes unless they used trickery to get him to .

    The possession was on Dean and Gadreel they both got what they wanted as a result. As for the Purge that has become the weapon to reflect away from what was at the heart of what Sam was feeling and considering people know Sam's past bad writing indifferent writing whatever it should not of taken that much of a leap to put 2 and 2 together.
    The simple fact is the writers and fandom decided Sam's words dwarfed Dean's actions and reacted that way when in reality Sam's words did not even come close .

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  138. Martin AndersMay 10, 2015 at 8:44 PM

    If Sam had given the 'superflous' info to Cas and Charlie their actions would have been informed.

    No more informed than before and no different either.

    Know danger is possible and it being possibly right over the hill are two different things. That means Charlie would get the risk was higher than she thought. Cas is a soldier tactically he would have acted differently because up until Charlie left he was there primarily to referee between Charlie and Rowena not protect Charlie remember. Both may have acted differently such as Charlie may not have run if they are right in town or she would have made sure she didn't stop in town for them to catch her. Cas get the place ready for attack by monsters instead of simply relying on the sigils on the walls.

    Sam did tell Cas about the danger "right over the hill". He specifically said that there were dangerous people looking for Charlie, even though he had no way to be sure of that. Cas was supposed to pass on the information either way and Charlie was not supposed to sneak off. Since she snuck off before she got any information from Cas at all, Sam filling Cas's ear with all the extra details wouldn't have made a difference.

    Sam not telling his supposed to be equivalent to Dean not telling Kevin about the sigils. he knows something is up but Gadreel hadn't made a move on Kevin at that point, Dean didn't think Gadreel knew about the sigils so why tell Kevin.



    Additional information wouldn't have made a difference in Castiel's actions, but they would've for Kevin. At the very least Kevin could've been on the lookout for a rogue angel and put up a few blood sigils just in case.

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  139. AlineMay 10, 2015 at 8:44 PM

    Sam said he didn't trust Ruby. And I believe they were both (or all three of them were) responsible for releasing Lucifer. After all, there is no last seal without a first seal.

    ReplyDelete
  140. NickMay 10, 2015 at 8:50 PM

    You really can't ignore a biblically marked person who is prone to violence and fratricide run about the place.

    ReplyDelete
  141. GingerMay 10, 2015 at 8:53 PM

    Dean was not responsible for Kevin's death, although he readily accepted that he was (as I suspect Sam will do with Charlie's death). Dean was trying to protect Kevin because the shitty assed angels had all fallen down on the job of protecting a prophet.


    Who was responsible for Kevin's death was Metatron and he used Gad as the dupe to do his dirty work. At the time Dean allowed Sam's possession, neither he nor Gad had any idea or intention that betrayal would happen.

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  142. fazziemodoMay 10, 2015 at 8:59 PM

    But that is also the thing, Sam has been tricked and manipulated all his life, the fact Dean does it would hurt him tremendously, I get that especially as Dean is the one person Sam would hope wouldn't do that. But in the situation he was in and after the conversation with Death, Sam should have been suspicious of it happening again. It makes Sam look a bit like he can't learn when he is smacked with what he knows is obvious - he maybe being manipulated again even by Dean because it isn't like Dean has been shown to manipulate him before (textgate).


    To be honest If they put a bit more of Sam's POV into things including letting us get that he felt he had Kevin's blood on his hands sooner then I don't think things would be as bad, the purge would be used less as a weapon to beat Sam with.



    The fact that Sam tells Kevin he'll get over it and then doesn't, didn't help. Especially coupled with the original writing of the finale after Dean's stabbing. If the J's hadn't changed that I think the purge would be more of an issue than it is now, and that is saying something and we know its not forgotten by the writers as it did get raised in the book of the damned episode.


    All those things taken together mean Sam doesn't come out good in the wash thanks to the writing and it didn't have to be that way. It is like the writers making Sam go overboard with thinks like text gate and some of fandom going it is the worse thing ever, when I was screaming 'there is a body on the floor, there is a body on the floor' while Sam is telling Dean to pick him or the guy who put the body on the floor because Sam is primarily pissed at a text.


    Not going on about how it showed Sam was right about Benny and Dean saying it wouldn't have happened if Sam hadn't brought Martin in. That argument I could have understood, really I could have it could have brought in Sam's insecurities about Dean trusting others more than him. But the manner the writers framed the anvils wasn't good for Sam in the long run as it framed Sam as a bit spiteful.


    I don't hate Sam Sharon, I hate how Sam is written, especially in the last three seasons.

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  143. SeanMay 10, 2015 at 9:00 PM

    So, in order for Dean to prove that he's not 'poison', instead of apologising and making amends, he takes on a mark that makes him poison.

    Sam's 'disowning' him (aka telling him that he wouldn't do the same thing Dean did in the same circumstances and telling Dean to make a choice) came AFTER Dean took on the MOC. At the time Dean took on the MOC, the last thing Sam said to him way to not think that (Dean was poison) was the problem. At least get your timeline right, Ginger.

    At the time Dean took on the MOC, Abbadon wasn't a blip on their radar. Dean left swearing revenge on Gadreel. Crowley was the one who wanted Abbadon dead and he enlisted Dean to help him. There was no further investigation done into how to kill Abbadon so you really can't say there was no other way to kill her. Dean, or Sam, didn't know about the souls in the jar at the time Dean took on the MOC.

    Sam doesn't have to follow Dean's orders mindlessly. Dean, and the MOC, is a problem that has to be dealt with, whether Dean likes it or not.

    ReplyDelete
  144. ShannonMay 10, 2015 at 9:03 PM

    Why is Rowena still in my life?? Ugh, i cringe at the sight of her. I can't wait til they kill her.

    ReplyDelete
  145. fazziemodoMay 10, 2015 at 9:04 PM

    Additional information that the people who had previously been looking for Charlie and the book were in town would have made Charlie act differently as much as knowing that Gadreel was in Sam would have made Kevin act differently.


    Charlie was in the warehouse when Sam took the call from Cas, that superflous info was gotten before Charlie ran - Cas and Charlie having the info may have made her not run because she knew the Steins were close.


    Dangerous people looking for Charlie and Dangerous people are looking for Charlie and they are in town makes the threat more immediate.


    But I get it you don't see it that way and I do. Each to their own.

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  146. sharonallyMay 10, 2015 at 9:22 PM

    Stop putting the possession on Sam . That scene was not that hard to decipher it was not what Sam should of done he was in a coma it was what Dean and Gadreel were doing .

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  147. fazziemodoMay 10, 2015 at 9:31 PM

    Sorry Sharon, we see the thing differently and you haven't given me reason to see differently with the way it is written.


    I'm not saying Sam is at fault but that he was capable of doing something by simply asking for more info because he knew there was a possible price.

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  148. chris684May 10, 2015 at 9:34 PM

    Charlie learned that the book was still around at the beginning of the episode when she met with Sam. Her decision to go off alone to the motel came hours after that. Whether or not she should have suspected she was still being hunted by the Stynes is debatable, but the argument that Charlie died because Sam didn't tell her he didn't burn the book doesn't add up.

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  149. Martin AndersMay 10, 2015 at 9:41 PM

    Additional information that the people who had previously been looking
    for Charlie and the book were in town would have made Charlie act
    differently as much as knowing that Gadreel was in Sam would have made
    Kevin act differently.

    The plain and simple information that "dangerous people were looking for her" would've been enough for Charlie to fill in the gaps and act differently - but Cas was the one responsible for passing it along after Sam gave it to him. Any additional information would've similarly not been passed on and therefor wouldn't have made a difference.

    Charlie was in the warehouse when Sam took the call from Cas, that
    superflous info was gotten before Charlie ran - Cas and Charlie having
    the info may have made her not run because she knew the Steins were
    close.

    Charlie was in the warehouse when Sam told Cas about the "dangerous people" - if Cas didn't pass that along there and then (prioritizing locking up Rowena instead), he wouldn't have passed along any additional information either. Therefore - no difference.

    Dangerous people looking for Charlie and Dangerous people are looking for Charlie and they are in town makes the threat more immediate.


    Even Cas should be able to figure the "in town" part out - if the danger wasn't close, Sam wouldn't insist on keeping her pretected.

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  150. fazziemodoMay 10, 2015 at 9:49 PM

    Charlie was in the warehouse when Sam told Cas about the "dangerous people" - if Cas didn't pass that along there and then (prioritizing locking up Rowena instead), he wouldn't have passed along any additional information either. Therefore - no difference.


    Charlie knew the Steins were after her, Cas didn't know there was new info to pass on. Like they were almost right on top of her. If Sam told and Cas didn't pass on then it is on Cas, Sam not passing the info means not passing on the info to Charlie that the people who had previously tried to kill her for the book she was presently using were close. Then it is on Sam especially when he told Cas to prioritise not leaving Rowena alone.


    As for Cas as Rowena said he is quite literal, saying the people who are after Charlie are in town is different then they are just after her.

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  151. Martin AndersMay 10, 2015 at 9:53 PM

    Well if he wants to live he has to say 'yes' true. But he still knows
    that there is a possible price. The skipping around it, doesn't mean we
    get over the fact that Sam knowing about that there is a possible price
    and the 'What do I do?', it isn't the same as 'how do I?'

    Which is why he didn't say "yes" to whatever the price might be. He said "yes" to sticking around and hearing more.

    And as for the reapers, Tessa going on about not being able to do her
    job because they are now proper angels (sucks big ones I know!). They
    weren't reaping full stop. As for Death being a figment, the actor
    playing Death said he thought it was a figment of Sam's imagination as
    he wasn't eating.

    As we know from "Death takes a Holiday" and "Appointment in Sammarra", people don't die unless a reaper "touches" them. So unless no humans died in season 9, the reapers were doing atleast part of their jobs. And don't take the actor's joke as conon - Death didn't eat in his first meeting with Dean in "Appointement..." either. But he wasn't a figment there.

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  152. Martin AndersMay 10, 2015 at 10:05 PM

    Charlie knew the Steins were after her, Cas didn't know there was new info to pass on. Like they were almost right on top of her. If Sam told and Cas didn't pass on then it is on Cas, Sam not passing the info means not passing on the info to Charlie that the people who had previously tried to kill her for the book she was presently using were close. Then it is on Sam especially when he told Cas to prioritise not leaving Rowena alone.


    Sam didn't know that they were "almost right on top of her" either. He didn't know that there was another Styne hot on her heels who was practically knocking on her door - all he knew was that they were looking for her and he passed that on. Eldon obviously didn't have any idea where the book was or where Charlie was (he'd have gone after them instead of Dean), which means, there is no reason to think that he was anywhere close to finding her, which means that information wouldn't make a difference.

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  153. sharonallyMay 10, 2015 at 10:07 PM

    I am not trying to give you a reason I do not have to .And frankly yes you are saying Sam was at fault by the very nature of your argument by putting the onus on Sam that is what you are doing .


    I am only to happy to say we see it differently .

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  154. lala2May 10, 2015 at 10:17 PM

    How could Charlie have not known the danger was imminent when she brought the Stynes to the Winchesters?!?! They were chasing her a few episodes ago. Once Sam told her he hadn't burned the book, I would think she'd think the Stynes may resume their search for her.


    In any event, Sam put her w/an ANGEL. She had the best protection she could get, and she chose to leave that protection. Charlie is responsible for her own death.

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  155. lala2May 10, 2015 at 10:32 PM

    You do realize Sam has no conscious knowledge of accepting Gadreel, don't you? He can't even discuss what happened w/Dean b/c when he was in a COMA and on the BRINK OF DEATH at the time. All this occurred in his subconscious. He only knows that Dean told him, which is "I TRICKED you into saying yes" or something like that.


    It's a shame that even Sam's possession has been blamed on him when he wasn't even conscious at the time. Wow.

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  156. lala2May 10, 2015 at 10:36 PM

    Well, I think blaming an unconscious, on the brink of death Sam for "not asking more questions" is a little much, but whatever. I take it you don't like Sam (or haven't liked him for the past three years), so I'm not surprised you're faulting him for the possession. I don't get it but whatever.

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  157. malooseMay 10, 2015 at 10:50 PM

    I think Jacob telling Sam his family wouldn't stop looking for the book should have hinted him, that they're all still in danger. I believe a calm not-desperate Sam would have taken the hint that the book might be protected. Upholding this vital information put all of them in danger. It was just pure luck Charlie wasn't killed until then. Sam didn't tell them the book wasn't burned and then left Charlie unprotected after 10.19. The narrative of the episode (the beginning montage) was just about this too; lying, secrecy and doing questionable things could all lead to bad consequences. The show is putting the blame on Sam.
    But I don't care, pretty much like I didn't care about Dean and Kevin, b/c they didn't know, they didn't knowingly jeopardize others' lives and got hurt by losing them, they just want to save each other and I love it.

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  158. WeRMany UR1May 11, 2015 at 4:29 AM

    "NO."


    Lol

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  159. fazziemodoMay 11, 2015 at 6:19 AM

    Well unconscious Sam was having a nice chat in his head with people so the writer's waived the unconscious part by saying even unconcious Sam could make a decision.


    And no, it isn't that I am a Sam hater. It is not that I see him as a perfect little flower and the writing for me backs it up. I disagree with you that is all. It seems there is a lot of that I disagree and so I am accused of Sam hate.


    It is just too easy to go straight to you hate Sam and are making out Dean is perfect - I'm not.

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  160. sharonallyMay 11, 2015 at 7:36 AM

    So where does Charlies responsibilty come into all of this. She was a grown intelligent womam who knew her situation and as far as I know there was no brow beating going on?.
    I honestly think that some of you make the rules up as you go along Sam is the uncaring brother if he does not do something , oh no wait Sam is the lying going against Dean's wishes brother if he does do something.
    Sam is responsible for Charlies death but Gadreel is responsible for Kevin's.Dean goes to extremes because he loves Sam that much so anything goes besides Sam could of said no but Sam must obey what Dean wants because the MOC is just really aa fake tattoo posing no danger to anybody.

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  161. GingerMay 11, 2015 at 3:15 PM

    I do, too.

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  162. GingerMay 11, 2015 at 3:21 PM

    :I'm not sure why you think I'm being biased."


    I was simply making an observation, not accusing anyone of being biased. Sneak peaks are misleading, and I don't put much stock in them at all....not to mention that they have been particularly boring this season.

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  163. GingerMay 11, 2015 at 8:15 PM

    "So, in order for Dean to prove that he's not 'poison', instead of apologising and making amends, he takes on a mark that makes him poison."

    No need for a deliberately dense statement. I won't even answer something like this.

    The point is, Dean felt like shit and HE felt he was poison to everyone. You do know the history of the character, don't you?

    Crowley offered a way to get the First Blade, which was needed to kill Abbaddon. Crowley was doing nothing more than he has ever done. Dean decided that killing her was a goal, so he took on the Mark, killed Abbadon, and now has another issue to deal with.

    Saying, "Sam doesn't have to follow Dean's orders mindlessly," is childish and offers nothing to the conversation.



    The Mark is a problem to be dealt with, but there is NO URGENGY THAT HAS BEEN SHOWN THIS SEASON to explain Sam's unhinged desperation.


    And let me make this clear for you. NOBODY IS BLAMING SAM FOR ANYTHING....so you may chill....The show and/or writing simply has not shown any urgency as to why Sam is so frantic that he would go to such desperate means as to enlist all of the Winchesters' friends and put them in danger, or even go to Rowena right now. It's something I think the show needs to address. It would also help if Dean was actually shown getting anywhere close to being Bizzaro!Dean. We have seen some Dark!Dean, but that is just part of who Dean is.

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  164. LJMay 11, 2015 at 9:38 PM

    If you were following the narrative you'd know that the book can't be destroyed. Dean's wishes were irrelevant in this equation. What was Sam supposed to do, just leave it there for the Stynes to take it? I don't know why I'm even asking you this since you seem to be trolling. Or just hitting the pipe extra hard, not quite sure.

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  165. LJMay 11, 2015 at 9:44 PM

    The book can't be destroyed though, and the Stynes knew this. Even if Sam had thrown it on the fire it wouldn't have made a difference. They still would have been after Charlie because she was the one who stole the thing to begin with.

    I get what you're trying to say about the brothers having empathy for others & that's why they feel guilty, and that makes total sense. But from a narrative standpoint it doesn't, which is why I said I felt like Charlie was fridged for manpain.

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  166. lala2May 12, 2015 at 1:53 AM

    Unconscious Sam does not remember these chats he had in his head b/c he was unconscious at the time. That's the point. I don't care what he did while unconscious and in a coma, but let's talk about how Dean got Sam to yes.


    "Dean" told Sam he and a plan and to trust him or something to that effect. Sam asked about the plan. Sam wanted to know what the plan was, but "Dean" did not respond w/a straight answer. He ignored Sam's direct question and asked Sam if Sam trusted him (or some similar question) to which Sam said, "yes" and was then immediately possessed.


    I honestly can't see how anyone could interpret that as knowing consent. It simply wasn't. Sam did not knowingly consent to being possessed. He simply said yes to trusting "Dean," but some are using that to say Sam was stupid or Sam didn't ask enough questions. Basically, Sam is being blamed for becoming possessed!


    That is crazy to me. I found it equally crazy when Dean was blamed for breaking the first seal. As I said earlier, Dean tricked Sam into saying yes. I understand why he tricked Sam, but he did trick him. That does not, IMO, make Dean a bad person. It makes him human.


    But feel what you want about it. I simply disagree.

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  167. SeanMay 12, 2015 at 8:39 AM

    The statement wasn't 'dense', Ginger. However, seeing as you have difficulty with it, allow me to dumb it down even further.

    Dean feels like 'poison' because he intentionally does things that he knows are wrong, that affect other people, and that benefit himself. One way to not feel like poison is to make amends for what he had done and endeavor to not do it again. Dean didn't do this, instead merely said that he would do it again.

    Secondly, Dean saying he is poison reeks of nothing more than an attempt to absolve himself of responsibility. He is blaming his actions on something he says he is, not something he chooses to do. In other words, he can't help doing what he does.

    Dean decided that instead of dealing with the Sam/Gadreel situation that he would go chasing after Abbadon, a character who, at that stage, was a non-entity. Mindlessly taking on the mark to deal with what was then a two-bit demon was idiocy.



    'Sam does not need to follow Dean' mindlessly is not a childish statement, though the arrogance of your reply to it is. You have persistently said that 'Dean told him not to do it', so you see no need for Sam to deal with the Mark. You said that he is paranoid and overreacting etc. (However last season you were complaining that Sam wasn't proactive enough in dealing with the mark so I'm quite sure what it is that you want.)


    There is urgency to deal with it. Apart from the fact that, as a storyline it's as long and boring as a wet weekend so the show would be well rid of it, but the words from Cain, the nightmares, the actions of Dean etc show there is urgency. It has not dominated every episode since he took it on, no, but there is urgency to it. The aim is to stop it before it gets worse, not to let it get worse and then deal with it.


    I am perfectly 'chill', thank you. You're the one who has taken to capital letters and dismissive remarks. Perhaps you yourself should chill?


    For you, the show has not shown any urgency, for others it has. You might be hankering for a Dean killfest, where it is nothing but a season of episodes where Dean kills everything with a heartbeat, but that is not going to happen.


    The Winchester's friends were put in danger the moment that Dean took on the MOC. Charlie was already injured as a result of it, and was further invested when she got the BOTD. Castiel is on the hitlist, as is Sam. The mark isn't going to just fall off, therefore, it needs to be dealt with.

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  168. SeanMay 12, 2015 at 8:40 AM

    'Make Dean look bad'? What on earth is Sam doing to make Dean look bad???

    ReplyDelete
  169. SeanMay 12, 2015 at 8:42 AM

    I'd say in this instance, that Sam is awfully concerned with Dean's needs ie the need to rid him of the MOC!

    ReplyDelete
  170. RossMay 12, 2015 at 10:43 PM

    I oddly quite liked the music in the producers preview. It made this season seem interesting.

    ReplyDelete
  171. AnnoDominiMay 12, 2015 at 11:25 PM

    Not gonna watch it. Not tired and don't want Carver's voice to put me to sleep.

    ReplyDelete
  172. sharonallyMay 12, 2015 at 11:56 PM

    Nice Dean Sam may of said many things but never wished you dead never even held Kevin against you . The MOC will be used to hide behind but which either way you look at it that was just horrible .

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  173. RobanahMay 12, 2015 at 11:57 PM

    Been seeing A LOT of lather, rinse, repeat stories here! From the lying to each other(Nothing new there, that has been going down since season two) to Charlie's death mirroring Kevin's, self loathing, keeping someone chained up and forcing them to work, Rowena and Sam Mirroring Crowley and Cas in season 6! My God do they need something new!!!!!

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  174. BoxManLockeMay 13, 2015 at 12:08 AM

    In a one minute video you can see Sam get treated like crap by his brother and getting bullied by Rowena of all people.

    Well at least the Sam-haters will have a good time.

    If the mark storyline doesn't end in the finale, I wonder if I'll bother coming back in the fall.

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  175. GingerMay 13, 2015 at 12:39 AM

    Oh, oh. I think Sam is taking on something that he's not strong enough to do.

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  176. lala2May 13, 2015 at 12:46 AM

    I didn't watch the clip, but that sounds awful and just like Carver's SPN!

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  177. lala2May 13, 2015 at 12:48 AM

    Wow. . . . Dean wished Sam were dead?!?!? That's awful!!

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  178. San SummerMay 13, 2015 at 12:50 AM

    This one you have to see!

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  179. lala2May 13, 2015 at 12:51 AM

    But it sounds so awful . . . haha!

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  180. BoxManLockeMay 13, 2015 at 12:52 AM

    I guess that must mean that...

    Wait for it...

    DEAN IS GETTING WORSE, GUYS !

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  181. San SummerMay 13, 2015 at 12:53 AM

    Yes, precisely because of that. I'm not sure those words can ever be taken back, mark or no mark.

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  182. CyanaTMay 13, 2015 at 1:00 AM

    From my understanding the harder core 'Dean mytharc fans' are already burning Sam in effigy. If Sam plays another passive role or is knocked out for his own 'good' again because Dean 'comes down' near the end of the episode from his MoC ramped bloodlust and the finale is again Dean-centric rather than brother-centric I doubt I'm watching S11 in real time either.

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  183. BoxManLockeMay 13, 2015 at 1:00 AM

    They can't be taken back but they sure as hell can be swept under the rug. You just watch.
    To be fair though Kripke let some pretty awful stuff get forgotten too, like Cass opening Sam's panic room and triggering the events of the season 4 finale. While we're on Cass, him breaking Sam's wall apparently never happened for anybody as well.

    Anyway, from the finale spoilers we've had it seems Sam is the one who gets all weepy and apologetic, so I bet Sam will make puppy eyes (because him defending himself is too much work for the writers) and Dean's words will be immediately forgotten.

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  184. elle j.May 13, 2015 at 1:05 AM

    There is absolutely no excuse for Dean to tell his brother that it should be Sam and not Charlie who died. Sam never even thought to say such a cruel thing to Dean when Kevin died.

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  185. BoxManLockeMay 13, 2015 at 1:06 AM

    Haha, the Dean mytharc fans. Nice way to put it.
    Anyway, I'm not sure how the finale will play out, except that it'll be all about Dean and that we'll have a "Winchester moment" in the end (whatever that means anymore) hoping that fixes everything.
    For the episode we're talking about though, I assume Sam's gonna have to be saved by someone, because he obviously won't be able to kill Crowley.

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  186. sdwhiskeyMay 13, 2015 at 1:06 AM

    Didn't Dean take responsibility for Kevin's death? Or maybe that doesn't matter. I guess blaming Dean is more important than the fact that he took responsibility for it.

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  187. sdwhiskeyMay 13, 2015 at 1:07 AM

    The writers sure do love Dean, don't they?

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  188. sdwhiskeyMay 13, 2015 at 1:13 AM

    Ha. I used to think it was all Mary's fault, but I could go with Lucifer as well.

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  189. sdwhiskeyMay 13, 2015 at 1:20 AM

    Why is it that so many people here forget that Dean isn't actually "Dean" anymore? He is being corrupted and influenced by the Mark of Cain. The MoC wants Dean to be angry and hateful. That's what it does. It's goal is to get Dean to the point of killing his brother. Dean is essentially possessed by the MoC right now.

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  190. sdwhiskeyMay 13, 2015 at 1:26 AM

    But Sam did hold Dean responsible for Kevin's death. He told Dean in the Purge: "you think what you're doing is worth it because you've convinced yourself you're doing more good than bad... But you're not. Kevin's dead.."



    And the MoC is taking over Dean. That's the entire point of the storyline.

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  191. sdwhiskeyMay 13, 2015 at 1:30 AM

    Except that this is MoC talking.

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  192. lala2May 13, 2015 at 1:33 AM

    LOL :-)

    The sad part is the MOC didn't even enter my mind. I can see Carver's Dean wishing Sam dead with or w/o the Mark.

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  193. lala2May 13, 2015 at 1:35 AM

    Agreed! It must be the producer's preview b/c the sneak peek was just Crowley, Sam, and Ro.

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  194. San SummerMay 13, 2015 at 1:38 AM

    Yes, it's is. You can go to The CW Television Network's YouTube channel to watch it in HQ. It's called Supernatural - Inside: The Prisoner.

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  195. lala2May 13, 2015 at 1:39 AM

    Umm . . . what are you talking about? Did I say Dean didn't hold himself responsible for Kevin's death?

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  196. Amy WegnerMay 13, 2015 at 2:00 AM

    It might be the Mark, but Dean has to be thinking it, a least a little bit.

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  197. sdwhiskeyMay 13, 2015 at 2:06 AM

    You did not mention Dean accepting responsibility for Kevin's death, only that "Kevin's death is completely on Dean." Those are 2 very different statements IMO. My point is that it's very typical for Dean to blame himself for bad things that happen. I think he's being unduly influenced by the MoC in blaming Sam for Charlie's death.

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  198. San SummerMay 13, 2015 at 2:11 AM

    Wishing death unto your own brother... That is so far from the bond that the Winchester brothers are supposed to have in spite of all the obstacles in the world.

    Then that little look of disgust Dean had in the extended trailer when he was looking at Sam. Dean looked like he smelled something bad and coupled with the way his eyes moved gives the impression that he was measuring Sam but found him lacking.

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  199. sdwhiskeyMay 13, 2015 at 2:18 AM

    Why? As we know from Cain, the mark will compel Dean to kill his brother. That's what it does. It's fate. It could be completely corrupting and twisting Dean's thoughts so that he feels compelled to hate Sam.

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  200. BoxManLockeMay 13, 2015 at 2:29 AM

    Just what bizarro world are you living in ? lol

    ReplyDelete

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