Supernatural – Season 10 Episode 18 – The Gripe Review
19 Apr 2015
Reviews Supernatural The Gripe ReviewHello everyone and welcome to the home stretch of SPN season 10.
This episode brought forth the full spirit of this season, the show's dedication to its barnaclite guest stars, by giving us Metatron, Charlie, and Rowena. Also my absolute non-favorite writer Robbie Thompson was in charge of writing it.
Let’s start with Thompson. Every episode that bears his name convinces me more that at some point during the summer hiatus the actual man was kidnapped by a crazy fangirl (Becky, likely) and hogtied in a basement as she took over his job and is now writing his scripts. I have no other explanation for a staff writer producing work that is almost identical to stories you'd find on Livejournal accounts written by fans who have wet dreams about being a part of the SPN universe.
If you are at all familiar with fanfiction, you might recognize the trope favored by many amateur writers who, despite being utterly incapable of producing a story, still want to write. The trick they use is to repeat everything that happened on the show whilst inserting their OC in every scene and letting her take over the plot anywhere possible. For example if on the show, Sam steals an ancient book from a convent, brings it to Dean, and they argue whether or not to use it, after which Dean storms out of the room, in the fanfiction it's the OC who steals the book, does all the cool stunts and becomes the target of the bad guys. No explanation is given for how she can fight multiple hitmen, or break into high security vaults, or know anything about ancient text. The OC - let's call her Destiny Viollette WyldFyre (or Charlie) - doesn't have a background that supports any of her exceptional skills. In fact we know nothing about her past other than a tragic incident that, despite causing a lot of grief and flashbacks, has not hindered her becoming a super genius, ninja, tomb raider, field surgeon with knowledge of anthropology and psychotherapy.
In the part where Sam and Dean have their argument everything happens exactly like on the show, except Destiny Viollette WyldFyre is right there with them to listen and emote. Once one of them storms out of the room she slips into therapist/wise woman mode and dispenses pearls of wisdom to the other to set him straight.
If at the end of the episode Castiel reunites with the brothers and Team Free Will has a rare moment of happily eating take out, in the fanfic you get Team Free Will plus the OC, and the writer makes sure the guys acknowledge and appreciate her presence every moment of the scene so we remember who she is.
There was a real episode somewhere in an alternate universe this week, one in which Sam found the book and he and Dean alone, or with Castiel, faced the troubles that came after it. In this universe however Robbie Thompson, or the fangirl who kidnapped him, replaced that script with a fanfiction piece in which the author-avatar Charlie did all those things and everyone else played her cheerleader. Then Carver and his crew filmed it and gave it to us as an episode of Supernatural. This makes for an excellent meta idea for an episode like The French Mistake. Becky could guest star and be more relevant and less annoying than any of the folks who showed up this week.
Now the gripes:
#1 Why show the talk and tell the action?
This episode had two stories running parallel, involving two MacGuffins: the Book of the Damned, and Castiel's grace. Both items were acquired, yet the plot strangely didn't revolve around the acquisition so much as the jibber jabber that came before or after it. We didn't see how the book was stolen. We only heard about it in a phone conversation between Charlie and the boys. Castiel's hunt for his grace, though shown on screen, was also front loaded with foot dragging and much b--sh-- dialogue. The actual part where Cas found his grace was as exciting as two guys playing scavenger hunt in a library with no obstacles and no action, just boring clues to solve.
If you want to make an episode about nabbing a highly sought after book, here's a crazy idea: Why not actually show the nabbing? Why skip the job and show the jabber? What do we care how the boys and Destiny Viollette Wyldfyre deciphered the book? Is a genie going to jump out of it once it's done? Because that’s the only way this would be interesting. Or is the tension intentionally kept low because they assume everyone watching the show at this point is so old they may suffer from a heart condition if faced with too much stress?
As for Castiel's grace finding b-plot, I repeat, he finds it in a library, a place which I'm sure scores very low on the Exciting Locale scale. The only obstacle he faces is Metatron's douchebaggery, which he could have easily avoided had he used his brain more.
#2 What is the point of this sequence (and the one after it?)
Speaking of useless jibber jabber ,can someone tell me why we had to sit through Metatron eating grossly at a diner? What is the purpose of this scene? Is it to show how much Metatron enjoys being human? If yes, then what is the point of that? We've been through this with both Castiel and Crowley, including the unfunny potty humor. Do we have to watch every supernatural being express their awe over human bodily functions when it almost never plays a significant role in the main plot?
#3 Why is Metatron out of character?
Metatron's fascination with human psycho/physiology was not only pointless, it was also out of character and annoying. I couldn't stand him yapping about radio music in the car as he was driving around with Castiel. The name dropping of songs really irked me, as it would anyone who is unfamiliar with those names. Was his rant on non-mainstream pop, like his lactose intolerance induced diarrhea at the diner, supposed to be funny? Am I supposed to laugh when in reality I want to punch him in the face for sounding like this oaf coworker I have who always expects you to laugh at his lame, inside jokes?
Of a different note, why would Metatron save Castiel's life? What was that all about? Was it because he needed a ride to the library and didn't want to hitchhike with someone else? Or was it again a side effect of his "humanity", similar to what keeps happening with Crowley?
The only time Metatron acted in character was when he mocked Castiel for Sam hanging up on him. He was being a douche yet I felt less inclined to beat him up than when he was spewing pop culture references and acting like having his grace torn out of him was the best thing that happened to him since his mom baked him a pie.
#4 Does Heaven have a mythology anymore?
I'm still confused about what's going on in Heaven. I try to ignore it as much as possible, except it keeps coming up on the show. This episode we found out Hannah is in charge, but I don’t know what she is in charge of. Why are rogue cupids with a vendetta against Castiel still roaming the earth? Can angels go back home or not? If yes why is this one down here when he is so unhappy he’s willing to kill for revenge? Why does an angel beat up another angel like an ordinary dude? For that matter why would an angel pass out from a blow to the head like an ordinary dude? Was the cupid missing his grace like Castiel? Was that why he not even remotely looked and acted like a cupid?
Perhaps the real question is why I give a fickle about all this when the writers clearly don't. I have a suspicion that - like so many other things involving show's past canon - Heaven’s mythology has become a free for all buffet for the writers. You could add to it or subtract from it anything that fits your script as long as you don't expect the next writer to follow in your footsteps and incorporate your changes. Canon could be defined and redefined as many times as needed to suit every writer’s need, and past and presently established mythology shouldn’t get in the way of the lulz.
#5 Why don’t actions follow logic?
If you were Dean Winchester, bearer of the Mark of Cain, and someone held you in a headlock, what would do? Would you slip out of the headlock and kick the guy in his yahoo right away, or would you wait over 2 minutes for the head bad guy to get through his monologue?
The amount of time Dean waits before finishing off this couple of small fries is hilarious. He can easily knock out both of them, as proven later on, yet he stands there in a silly yoga pose for 2 minutes and 20 seconds so the guy could talk about stuff and hold a knife to him. Did he not worry that at some point he might stab him in the gut? Why take that risk? If we assume he did it to get information (which in reality was a long harangue of bragging and Charlie shilling,) why do it while at a disadvantage? Why not incapacitated the guy first, then interrogated him?
I watch the Walking Dead and the zombies on that show have more sensible reactions than the hunters and gangsters on this show.
#6 Why is Charlie so ridiculously overblown?
I didn’t want to talk more about Charlie after I dedicated the intro of the review to her. But it is near impossible to ignore her when she not only steals the spotlight from the main characters every time, but also becomes more absurdly exaggerated.
A poster on the IMDB forums said that in their opinion, Charlie has surpassed the status of a character and ascended into becoming a gimmick, a vehicle for Thompson to enact his wildest dreams regardless of canon, plot, or logic.
She barely started hunting before she was shipped off to Oz. Now we find out she is an international relic hunter who also has enough field experience to stitch a bullet wound with dental floss. She's also familiar with archaic scripts and can tell if something is written in code. And all of that is in addition to her hacking and programming skills, her excellent combat abilities (which allow her to best not one, but two professional hitmen,) and her vast knowledge of everything supernatural now surpassing that of Sam and Dean.
Then we have the scene where she's alone with Sam and he's lamenting his current dilemma with Dean and of course, not to fall short in the angst department, Charlie has to bemoan her own situation as someone trapped in the life of a hunter. Thompson apparently forgets that Charlie chose to pursue hunting while Sam and Dean grew up in that life. Sam even says every time he tries to get away he is pulled right back in. What is Charlie's excuse? If she's so miserable being a hunter what's stopping her from going back to being a hacker, faking a resume and a new identity, and getting a job at Google, or WikiLeaks?
To top it all off we have the scene where she meets Castiel and he acts like he's just met the goddess of light. Castiel and Charlie have never had any interaction before this. They are complete strangers as far as we know. Why would he be excited to meet her instead of their meeting happening like any two persons meeting for the first time? Unless Sam and Dean sung her praise to him so much that he has a poster of her in his room, Thompson's assumption that everyone in the SPN universe knows Charlie, and is either a fan or wary of her, is fanfiction nonsense.
#7 Why would Sam repeat a foolish mistake for the umpteenth time?
At the end of the episode we see Sam negotiating to save Dean with someone off screen. I wonder if anyone had any guesses about the identity of the mystery bargainer besides Rowena. Sam wants to strike a deal with her, much like Dean did with Gadreel and was blamed for it, and Castiel did with Crowley and they both blamed him for it until the oceans ran dry. Sam himself jumped into bed with Ruby in season 5. Now it seems it's his turn again in the rotation.
Not only is this scenario done to death, it hints at a lack of intelligence on Sam’s part. After making the same mistake too many times, even the most brainless, reckless individual would avoid touching this hot stove with bare hands again. Sam wanting to make a deal with Rowena could be out of desperation, but it also brings his mental faculties into question. He can't be so dumb as to not connect past dots together and make the deduction that such plans always backfire spectacularly on all parties involved.
Before I end this review I have to add how disappointed I am that an important story development such as Castiel getting his grace back happened in this episode. It should have been done better. Once I even thought finding his grace would make a nice long or short term story arc for the show. Now it got squandered and lost in all the Charlie hype as just an excuse for her and the boys to party together. They turned the famous threesome into an unwelcome quartet. If that's foreshadowing for things to come in season 11 it will be my sign off from SPN. I said before, the moment they announce Felicia as a regular on the show is the moment I bid adieu to Supernatural.
Shoot me your comments below. This episode once again earned a 0.6 index in the ratings, continuing the low viewership trend the show's been on ever since its writers forgot they were writing for TV and not fanfiction.net. When Supernatural - once the #2 highest rated show on the network - scores lower than the newcomer iZombie, you wish TPTB read the gripe review.
Tessa
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twitter.com/tessa_marlene
I don't mind Sam going to Rowena as much as you.I don't just dislike it because it's a bad idea, I dislike it because it's a dead horse storyline. It feels like since season 2, when Dean made that deal with the crossroads demon, we're on the same merry-go-around when it comes to the brother stories. It was really exciting the first and second time. But as it keeps coming back it is becoming really predictable and silly.I really did like hearing Sam actually utter words, about himself and how he felt, even though he got cut off.I enjoyed that too. But like with Castiel getting his grace back, I was pissed it was wasted on Charlie. I want Sam to talk about his past and his feelings. I don't want him to do it with Charlie so she could participate in hardship Olympics with him. Remind me again how she got so cozy with them?
ReplyDeleteI wished they would have kept her as tech support too, and given her a semblance of a defined character instead all over the place greatness in everything. But then, how would they insert her in the boys' most intimate moments and justify her sharing their experiences like she's one of them? When you have a Mary Sue you don't pigeon hole her into one part of the plot, you let her spread into every crevice of it it like the cancer she is.
I absolutely love your opinion about Charlie and Thompson. I believe if Thompson isn't that focused to hype his doll, he's one of the best writers of the show, I like his non-Charlie episodes.
ReplyDeleteSo so true about fanfiction. Everything about this magnificent OC is unbelievable and utterly childish. S10 presented a nauseating Charlie. Actually the amount of time I skip through each episode is getting more and more. The only time I force myself to tolerate Charlie or Rowena is when they're in a scene with the Winchesters and the brothers are doing the talking. When I think about the ridiculous plot of 10.21 .... Really? She's now supposed to be on par with a some hundreds year old witch?!!!! A computer geek?!!!!
Like you, I couldn't get why Cas was this happy at seeing Charlie! Charlie's joy was understandable b/c she'd read the book and knew he was an angel.
About dumbing poor Sam, I agree. At least when Dean wanted to help Sam, he went to an angel, someone Cas approved of, while he had the king of hell in his trunk. But Sam does the most foolish thing possible. I know it probably was intentional, to show that uncaring Sam of S8&9 was willing to do anything to save his brother. I like such prospect (I like the brothers going to the extreme to save each other), but it makes me think was it that necessary to make a complete dick out of Sam in the first place to now redeem him like it!
But all in all, I liked the episode, I skipped through parts of it but I liked what I saw. And the directorial work was excellent. I think he was new in SPN. I liked his style, slow motions, camera angles was unique, especially in diner with Cas&Metatron, it gave a maniac feeling to it, so appropriate ;)
Great review! Of the people that watched this episode, most seemed to like it. I didn't care for it myself, but then this entire season has been horribly disappointing to me.
ReplyDeleteGripe #1: I'm not sure what this is about, but the show is all talk and no show, IMO. To me, this is most reflected in the MOC story in general. All we hear about is how terrible the Mark is and how troubled Dean is by it, but I don't see any evidence of that. Dean's not in a bloodlust. He's not a rage-aholic. He's not secretly
planning to murder Sam. He's not doing crazy things. He's not torturing
people. He's not randomly killing people. He's not doing much of
anything IMO, and that is my problem with the story. Dean is fine. I understand why the Mark needs to be removed, but it is not an urgent
matter. I could understand if it was driving Dean insane or something, but he doesn't seem to be bothered by it all so there is no urgency to this story, IMO. And that lack of urgency directly impacts, IMO, your Gripe #7.
I would understand Sam's desperation to help Dean leading him to Rowena if I actually felt the MOC presented an urgent problem that needed to be solved. It doesn't. If the writers were more obvious and blatant about the effects of the Mark on Dean, if I saw it negatively impacting Dean's life, then I would give Sam a pass on contacting Rowena b/c I would understand his desperation. As the story has played out, it makes no sense for Sam to go to Rowena at this point. Dean is basically fine. Having Sam go to Rowena when Dean is perfectly fine just makes Sam seem stupid.
Gripes #2 and 3: I don't know why these writers are obsessed w/angels being obsessed w/bodily functions. I didn't mind Meta's fondness for waffles, but the passing gas was a bit much. It wasn't funny. It was disgusting. I've never been fond of fart jokes. Maybe Meta didn't kill Castiel b/c he wanted Castiel to know that he had played him YET AGAIN. Who knows? I found those scenes to be time fillers to round out the episode since the Js don't work full-time schedules anymore.
Gripe #4: I didn't get that angry cupid either. I am also clueless as to what's happening in Heaven, but I can't say I care. The Heaven sub-plots were horrifically boring and bad to me so I'm fine w/being in the dark. Haha.
Gripe #5: Just more evidence of the MOC story being poorly written, IMO. There was no reason for Dean to be "captive" to that bad guy's exposition when he has a Mark that makes him super-powered and super strong, right? I thought that's what the Mark did for him but we've seen no evidence of that super strength this year. Again, that scene was just poorly written. As you said, they could have shown Dean incapacitating the guy and then getting all that exposition.
Gripe #6: I couldn't agree more w/you about Charlie. She is completely unbelievable at this point. As you said, she went on a couple of hunts before she left for Oz, and we're expected to believe she's this super hunter now w/a sword like Michonne from TWD?!?!?! Please?!?!? What a joke!
yea i remember dean telling cain before he killed him "tell me that you can stop" stop what exactly?? dean is fine with the mark lol
ReplyDeleteRobbie Thompson is too busy fulfilling his teenage dreams of being a comic writer to even know what's happening on SPN now. He just comes in, reads cliff notes of prevs episodes and writes his BS for his girl Charlie and ass Metatron. He needs to choose one or the other and I'd prefer he keep writing his comics and get the hell off of SPN. He can take Jeremy Carver and Adam Glass with him,
ReplyDeleteRobbie Thompson is to Charlie is what Yahoo is to Kim Kardashian. Obsessed!!
ReplyDeleteIn I honestly hope if this season ends on a good cliffhanger they build on that in actually tell us a story again. I'm tired of patch work when they rush it at the end in do nothing most of the season.
I don't expect the show to be like it was cause we had better writers, but at least they can do is give decent work. In when you not even doing that that's a problem.
In that young demo they looking for so much, I find it kinda ironic that is the demo killing the show.
They are doing better with the older audience they are the most loyal, but everyone has a breaking point eventually. In I also did not sign on for a Ensemble cast either, cause they can't even balance Sam and Dean story most times.
This team just need a creative overhaul.
Ohhhh I sort of wish now for charlie to get cast as a series regular next season. That'll stop a lot of peoples whining.
ReplyDeleteI know, right? Even in this episode, he was talking about the Book "calling" him, and I was like, "Calling you to do what? You seem fine to me." LOL!
ReplyDeleteWould you want her to be Garcia from Criminal Minds? Because I HATE Garcia from Criminal Minds. She's the sloppy person who always spills too much in front of people she shouldn't and gets the info Like THIS. Hello, at least show her typing at her console occasionally. Hate Garcia.
ReplyDeleteI was waiting for your comments.
ReplyDeleteI liked the episode, but everything damn thing you said is valid. And the business about RT "living" thru Charlie is just so spot on. TNT just ran Season 7 and 8 and I watched her episodes to figure out what went wrong; I lied her first episode, didn't feel she took it over. I really liked LARP and the Real Girl, that was fun for me. The Djinn episode too, I liked her dream. AND she wasn't perfect in that one (I got her being good at shooting because the military trains people in shooting now using shooter games and that actually works). BUT when we got to Season 8 and the Oz episode, Christ on a cracker. Stupid stupid stupid. So the character for me has gotten progressively worse. THIS season's Return from Oz episode made me angry.
But here she did not appear to take over the episode the way she did the Oz or the Djinn episodes and I liked that. DON'T know where she got the ninja skills, unlike the shooting skills those have to be trained not learned.
Oh why am I discussing her so much?
I had the same comment you did about Castiel's wings; he was technically human after Metatron took his Grace AND when he got his Grace back it should have ended the spell.
OR was this a spell which once done could not be undone by just taking away an ingredient. HMMM. I wonder if the Book of the Damned has a reversal spell for THAT.
Also, while I hate to say it, Hannah was right, Metatron was too dangerous to ever get out of Heaven's Jail. (BTW, I liked boy-Hannah better than girl-Hannah; actually sparked with Castiel.)
Always looks forward to your comments here on Gripe Review.
He can take Jeremy Carver and Adam Glass with him.And Cole, and Clair, and Metatron, and Rowena. That's your spin-off Carver. Go run with it and leave us our Winchesters please.
ReplyDeleteI like the concept of the Book of the Damned and look forward to its being decoded.
ReplyDeleteBut it was still stupid of Sam to NOT burn it.
Sam is maturer (?) now then he was in Season 3-4; he KNOWS he is being stupid and doing a stupid dangerous thing. That does not bode well for Sam.
Me too. The rating nosedive might help save my favorite show "The 100" for another season.
ReplyDeleteBecause the angels are so trustworthy? The angels have actually let them down far greater and far more consistently than demons, or any other supernatural on the show, have. And why was what Sam did so foolish? Wouldn't it have been more foolish to burn the only lead they had? Dean survived with the MOC and the existence of the book for more than a year. Why not have Sam just go somewhere else with the book and decode it there?
ReplyDeleteSam, unfortunately, is damned no matter what he does. If he burns the book and destroys the only way of getting rid of the MOC then it risks a worse evil being let loose on the world. If he doesn't destroy book then it risks a greater evil being let loose. Dean reacts in his usual way when things get too big for him; he sticks his head in the sand. He did it in season 4 and he's doing it again here so he's of no help.
Oh, don't even start with the book b/c it was laughable! Honestly I either FF or tuned out when Charlie was on screen, just the way she was talking about the book and her adventures made me cringe! But I remember the moment she said the pages were out of skin, I started to wonder how many pages it had! Well it seemed more than the skin of one person, unless she was way way overweight!
ReplyDeleteI keep hearing the "it does not bode well for Sam," and that is true, but it also takes Sam right back to that selfish, self-centered "he wants what he wants and to hell with everybody and anything else" place. One would think he would have learned something along the way. Well, he did, but he is being regressed this season and that makes Sam look dumb.
ReplyDeleteNo, no, no! I won't participate in a Sam&Dean fangirls war here. What I said was clear, an angel whom Cas approved is way better than a witch even the king of hell can't trust. Sam is not damned, I for one didn't complain about his actions here, like Tessa I was just confused by the writers' story. Maybe some fans should stop getting defensive whenever his name is brought up.
ReplyDeleteWhat he wants is to save Dean's life and the lives of all the people Dean will kill when he, once again, succumbs to the MOC. How on earth is that selfish and self-centred?
ReplyDeleteAnd as you recall, he did learn something along the way. In season 8, he believed Dean was dead and didn't try to bring him back and the fans AND Dean complained and criticised NON STOP about that. Now here he is, doing exactly what Dean tore him apart for NOT doing in season 8 and still the fans are complaining! One thing that's evident is that Sam can't win for trying. Follow Dean's orders, he's wrong. Don't follow Dean's orders, he's wrong.
And the ironic thing, had Sam followed Dean's ordered and burned the book, the same fans would be complaining about how 'dumb' he was to burn the only lead they have found so far to rid Dean of the MOC .
It’s offensive that Charlie has become Mary Sue. It’s offensive that after so hard experience Sam going to go dark so stupid way. I'd never liked Cas because the writers try to introduce him as a good guy, but this point of view cannot be accepted without deactivating the process of logical thinking. So it doesn't matters what he do. Although all of this angelic mess is pretty annoying. But if the favorite characters will be destroyed so thoughtlessly I'll skip the show because it's unbearable to watch.
ReplyDeleteSeriously? This isn't Sam&Dean fangirls war here. It's an observation, maloose so stop trying to start things where there in nothing. The angels, Castiel included, have consistently proven to be wholly untrustworthy. Castiel lied to Dean and Sam for a season, he opened Purgatory, broke the wall in Sam's head, he destroyed heaven (twice), he has killed numerous angels, and he has worked with Crowley also. What exactly is it that makes him so trustworthy?
ReplyDeleteWell, thank you.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the spell, we are to believe that there was "a little bit" of Cas' grace hanging around in the library, but it sure looked like a full vial of it to me.
I said this on another site, but I will repeat it here.
Charlie has been in the life for two years. In S8 Larp, Charlie wasn't even contemplating hunting. She decided to 'quit running' from...whatever. In Pac Man Fever, she was an apprentice hunter under Dean and, through narrative, had never done a break and enter. It wasn't until S9 Slumber Party that she says she researched all things supernatural and read the Winchester Gospels and been hunting, but it wasn't "magical" enough for her. Then she's off to Oz and now back a full-fledged hunter equal to Dean Winchester (and probably better than Sam, based on this episode where she can recognize a code with a twitch of her nose.)
Remember when EK was adamant that the show not rely on fantasy elements like spells and wands; that it remain established in both the gritty working class middle America atmosphere while welcoming out-of-the-box episodes that pushed boundaries? Remember when the show took itself seriously and everyone worked their butts off to get the details right, when the actors worked their butts off trying to get it right, and the directors attempted to show how dark the dark is and how nail-biting hunting something faster, stronger and able to end it all with a single bite is?
Charlie goes against all of that. Thompson has a tendency to introduce high-ended fantasy into the show, and Charlie is his vehicle that does that. She is also symbolic of what is wrong with the show these days. -- an undeveloped character that can do all things, knows all things, and everyone loves her because….undeveloped reasons.
I don't know if you're trying to prove that what Dean did is more foolish than Sam, or you dislike Cas that much you can't forgive his previous mistakes (something Sam fans accuse other fans about him), after he's done so much good and suffered a lot, that you say the malicious Rowena is a better choice!!!! OK, I get it, we can agree to disagree!
ReplyDeleteHe wants to save Dean's life, except that Dean's life does not seem to be in question or danger at the moment. By all appearances, there is nothing to show that Dean is even close to losing control and, if he does, he has made arrangements with Cas to take care of it. Who is to say that Dean can't keep control for centuries? Cain did.
ReplyDeleteWhat I find ironic is that Sam is going to save Dean's life by lying and going behind his back. If I recall right, that was his excuse with cavorting with Ruby; that he was going to pay Lilith back for killing Dean. If I remember correctly, both Sam and Cas have both lied to Dean before with catastrophic consequences. Now they are both going to do that again? Personally, I don't think Dean has regained trust in either one of them for those times, but when he finds out this time, how is anyone to believe that Dean will ever trust them again? How is that good for the mythical brother bond?
I am not into the Sam -vs- Dean thing or rehashing who was right and who was wrong in S8 and S9, but what Tessa says here is true. This is a dead horse story that repeats itself without any resolution ever being reached.
Besides that, who is to say the Mark is a bad thing. Maybe it can be used for good, just as it can be used for bad. Who is to say that the Stynes weren't trying to keep the book safe these days and out of everyone's hands?
And it was stupid of Dean to command Sam to burn Book. Of course, wounded chick is a better fighter than Sam!
ReplyDeletePretty sure she was told he had died, not MIA. There's a big difference between those two and the feelings they cause.
ReplyDeleteSo he should wait until Dean is a full blown demon/knight of hell and killing all around him before then trying to save him? Dean has already lost control numerous times. He's in line to kill Sam and Castiel. Should Sam wait until that happens (because we know that Dean won't let Sam stay dead)?
ReplyDeleteI'm really not too pushed if Dean never trusts Sam or Castiel again. Jeez, Dean has told more lies than he has had beers at this stage. Not including the numerous lies he told last season, and the season before, he still hasn't told Sam or Castiel what Cain said, so if Dean pulls the whole 'I can't trust you because you lied to me' then Sam and Castiel will, rightfully, laugh in his face. Can Dean himself be trusted? No. I am not into the Sam - vs- Dean thing but Dean has made chronically bad decisions over the years (MOC, Gadreel, demon deal, going to say yes to Michael) with the knowledge that his decisions will hurt others. So what on earth makes Dean so trustworthy? This time, at least, Sam is lying because he wants to save Dean's life. That should earn Dean's approval because he has learned from Dean that this is perfectly okay.
Re the powers being used for good. It's funny, I remember the argument being made the the demon blood and the powers was a good thing. It was saving lives, sending demons back to hell without killing the hosts. If arguing that using powers to saves lives is a bad thing but using powers to kill lives is a good thing, then the show (and Dean) will have lost all credibility!
Forgive him his previous mistakes? I've no problem forgiving Castiel because I understand why he took those courses of action. However, what Castiel did was a little more than a 'mistake'. He has shown chronically poor judgment numerous times over the years. Literally the episode previous to that his judgment got his grace taken off him and the angels kicked out of heaven! This isn't about 'forgiveness', this is about logic. What is it that makes Castiels judgment so trustworthy for you?
ReplyDeleteAnd what exactly is wrong with Sam working with Rowena at the
moment? All people are saying is 'It's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong' but why? Is it because a demon doesn't trust her?? Sam knows what she is, what she can do etc? He said he doesn't trust her but if Sam was to only work with those he trusted there is literally noone on the show he could work with. However, the MOC is a spell, Rowens is a witch so why is working with a witch who knows what to do such a dumb thing to do?
I'm agree generally, especially about Branson.
ReplyDeleteAs was Sam's 'mistakes', remember freeing Lucifer?! But point is they both had good intentions, unlike Rowena.
ReplyDeleteAnd I must say it's 'your' logic, 'your' point of view, not everyone shares it, I don't even understand your logic about the befits of working with that evil witch, so as I said before we can agree to disagree b/c this discussion has nothing for either of us.
Was Cain actually able to prophesize (if this is the wrong word, spelled WRONG, please forgive)? Or was he just saying what he thought COULD happen? Cain and Dean had such different plot trajectories, I could buy that Cain was just handing out some sour grapes in his wackadoodle explanation why killing Dean was doing him a favor. Sort of like, I'm going to kill 700M people because my seed is poison. So maybe right, maybe wrong. Dean told Crowley Cas and Sam already in the episode that they needed to watch WHATEVER came out of the fight, so they all knew they were in danger from a possibly crazed Dean, right? So saying he WILL kill them and in that order doesn't make it so.
ReplyDeleteI DID, however, think about the preview of Sam telling Rowena he'd kill Crowley for her as a possible set-up: Sam attacks Crowley, Crowley defends himself, gets the upper hand, Dean hears about the fight, rushes in, kills Crowley to save Sam. Then feels the regret that Crowley was just defending himself.
Possible?
Wow Tessa , that's just.. Pretty sad of you. Keep dreaming, SPN has to dive really hard to reach 0.4 greatness of t100 finale in 2nd season.
ReplyDeleteI don't know why you still reviewing this show, honestly.
That burned me too! Because Dean should've NO WAY trusted CHARLIE to take out the super-charged Steyn minion.
ReplyDeleteI never thought that I'd be one of "those" people, but: I'm done with SPN for a while. If anyone needs me, I'll be on the Arrow page... we have Olicity shippers and they are a lesser evil than Charlie, Metatron and whatshername combined.
ReplyDeleteWait a minute: Kripke introduced plenty of Magical Elements. What powered the Colt or Ruby's Kurdish knife? Whenever the show features witches there are spells and hex bags up the wazoo (rhymes with kazoo). And that was during Kripke's time too.
ReplyDeleteDo you think a character like Magnus doesn't fit in the Supernatural universe? Worked for me. I am one of those people that LIKE the Bunker and all the stuff in there.
But you are so right right as rain about Charlie. Super Ninja Hunter Charlie just does not "fit" in the world. Charlie who is setting up a computer system to catalogue all the MOL artifacts/info into easy access, yes indeedy.
(This is an aside, I don't know WHAT Robbie Thompson looks like. But I bet he would LOVE to be an Action Figure and probably isn't all that physically ept. I don't know, but I think Charlie's Super Abilities are wishful thinking on his part. If somebody knows he is a handsome devil with pecs and thighs like tree trunks and can shoot and spar like he wrote Charlie, let me know.)
Charlie is supposed to work with Rowena, so part of me is thinking if it follows the same trajectory as everything else Charlie, poor motherless Charlie is going to make Rownea rethink her ways. Then she'll become a better mother to Fergus and regret Sam's offer and try to defend the little mite.
ReplyDeleteYes, Kripke did. In fact, the brothers are Black Magic experts; that's how they have been able to fight some of the things they fight. But magical is different than Fantasyland stuff (like Charlie, for instance) and EK always brought it back to the grit, working class, middle America.
ReplyDeleteThink stereotypical nerd, not hunk, about Thompson. Google him and you should find a picture.
Cause some of us love her reviews and her wit. She cracks me up.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't mean it's ok to wish SPN to die in order to get her favorite from under the water.
ReplyDeleteOh, Christ, kill me now.
ReplyDeleteThere is no explanation I can think of why CASTIEL lied about how he got his Grace back. Dean NEEDS to know that his murderer (who hates him, who targeted him because he thinks Dean is God's Favorite) is on the loose with the Demon Tablet. They need to call Kevin ASAP.
ReplyDeleteCain presented Dean killing first Crowley, then Cas, then Sam as a preordained thing. That said, we have not been given any indication that Cain can see the future, so it could be conjecture. I could see the show killing off Crowley, but Cas? I'd be surprised if they did that. At least I'm fairly sure Cas won't stay dead. He never has before.
ReplyDeleteI know, I don't know where Tessa stands on spoilers, so I wasn't going to ruin her day by telling her that we get Charlie back for at least one more episode.
ReplyDeleteCain was not "acting" crazy in The Executioner's Song; his plot to kill all of those who carried his "tainted" blood reminded me of the plot from The Originals where Mama and Papa Original have spent 1000 years trying to kill their children and wipe out vampirism. I have a problem not being sympathetic to that.
ReplyDeleteAND I think Cain, who was going down a particular path, wanted to either die and get this over with OR kill Dean to save him and gave Dean reasons why he should kill him, before he killed everybody he cared about.
Again, I don't know. But Cain did not seem capable of prophesy when we first met him.
Oh sorry.
ReplyDeleteUghh I can see that happening. Charlie works my nerves.
ReplyDeleteDude, sarcasm. Look it up.
ReplyDeleteThey need to bring that darkness back, in stay away from the campy goofy element they seem to have brought in the past few years. it makes the show look to juvenile.
ReplyDeleteGripe #7 is the one that pains me the most and the reason the next few episodes have no chance of being interesting to me.
ReplyDeleteIt's been 10 years. Is that really all there is to the show ? Do people still enjoy watching the brothers save each other again and again, consequences and common sense be damned ?
The opening of the first seal, keeping the gates of hell opened, Kevin's death... what's it going to take for the brothers to stop this cycle (and by the brothers I mean the frakking writers) ?
The trickster/Gabriel warned Sam about this for the first time 7 years ago. Yet here he is now, doing the same mistakes for what, the third or fourth time ?
There's a reason Swan Song is such a powerful episode and the true ending of the show for many fans. It's pretty much the only time one brother let the other sacrifice himself for the greater good.
I've gotta disagree with the reviewer here.
ReplyDeleteCharlie seemed somewhat nerfed here, whereas she's normally portrayed as being more competent than in this episode (qualities that have led to her being denounced as a mary sue, which being a prodigy that couldn't be bested by a genetic identical is part of the conceit of the character).
She was pursued, struggled with her assailants and was shot as she was fleeing. There is an in universe explanation for her being a competent fighter (her time in Oz). When Sam is talking about where he's at in his life, Charlie isn't robbing Sam of his agency as a character by being the one he's bouncing his woes off of. It does give it a freshness that might not be found if it was one of the 3 other main cast.
I actually liked this episode alot and felt it was the strongest entry since Cains last appearance. Great rock music choices, some good mythology added that fits well with the men of letters mythology thus far, metatron I liked here, basically trolling Cas on his purpose, he reminded me of the Clown from the Spawn comics, this nuisance plaguing the characters occasionally leveling up to serve as a legitimate threat. The force felt in the library as Cas returned was well shot and greatly underscored with dramatic music.
I do think the focus has shifted around alot this season but this episode felt like a really strong springboard towards a great endgame (for the season at least)
Charlie's joy at seeing Cas was understandable b/c she'd read the book and knew he was an angel. Did Charlie say she hacked into Chuck's computer and read the rest of the books? Or did Chuck publish beyond season 3 because that's where the books were at when we met him last. This is another mythology mystery for me. I could swear the Supernatural chronicles ended with Dean going to hell and then the published went bankrupt so where did Charlie and the girls from the musical read about Castiel?When I think about the ridiculous plot of 10.21It seems like with Charlie nothing is off limits. She can do anything either true her limitless computer skills or magic mushrooms she takes regularly. Want someone to access a 1940's vacuum tube computer using a Microsoft Surface tablet? Call Charlie. Want someone to go toe to toe with a hundred y/o witch? Charlie. Like I said, she's a gimmick, not a real person.
ReplyDeleteAll we hear about is how terrible the Mark is and how troubled Dean is by it, but I don't see any evidence of that.This was my #1 gripe last week. Sam is in great stress over the mark taking over Dean, while Dean goes around doing his thing with no hitch. I'm at a loss as to what this great and terrible danger is that is threatening him that people only talk about yet we see no hints of. When Sam was doing the trials he lost weight and had bad headaches and sick episodes. Dean is more chipper than ever.he has a Mark that makes him super-powered and super strong, right? I thought that's what the Mark did for him but we've seen no evidence of that super strength this year.I've read so many theories about the mark that my head is spinning. Supposedly it's giving Dean superpowers but as you say, we see no evidence of him using that superpower in any of his hand to hand fights. Some say it's because he fears it taking over him, yet that too is speculation since we've seen evidence of that only once (when Dean killed the pedo mob.) Charlie's beat up was supposed to be another incident but Dean didn't do much damage to her beyond an ordinary man could do to a 120 lb woman. I really can't wrap my head around neither the advantages nor the disadvantages on this thing.
ReplyDeleteOh, wait a minute. Are you saying Dean withholding information from Sam is a lie? As I recall, Dean has not lied to Sam; he's kept a piece of information to himself -- as most people are entitled to do if they need and/or want time to think about it before sharing with the world. Every human in the world does that; especially someone like Dean who plays things close to his chest.
ReplyDeleteHas withholding that information been a problem yet? Has Dean killed anyone? Has he lost morality yet? As far as I can see, the MoC isn't having much of an affect on him. We've got what? a flash of black eyes when Rowena had the college goons threaten him. That saved his life. Then there was the Book calling him? And what did Dean do? He told Sam the book was calling to him and he didn't want it to fall into bad hands.
What would happen if Dean had told Sam and Cas immediately? Sam and Cas both act like Dean is going to go feral and massacre everyone in sight at any moment, although there has been nothing shown as to why they think that. Dean knows Sam better than anyone, and had he told him immediately, Sam would be watching him with laser intensity and nagging his every step.
Can you imagine having your family and/or friends watching you in that way, staring worriedly at you 24/7? That is not supportive -- it's accusatory. Besides, Dean knows Sam inside out, and he knows what losing him will mean to Sam.
MoC? That was the only way to kill Abaddon, and Dean willingly accepted it knowing there would be consequences. He just did not know what those consequences were; yet, he is willing to die before he hurts anyone, and he is willing to continue doing as much good as he can until he cannot any more.
Gadreel? Yep, it turned out with Kevin being killed, and that was on Meatron and Gadreel. Gad did, after all, make his choices. For Dean's part, he ended up saving Sam's life without even knowing that Sam had, in a deep coma, decided to die....or he was lying to Dean just to be spiteful.
Going to say yes to Michael? How was that any worse than the options that were available to them at the time. Sam had not come up with his stupid plan yet and when he did, Dean went along with it. And who won that one? Based on the following seasons, I would not say the Winchesters did.
It is typical of a certain faction of fandom to blame Dean for Sam making bad choices, and you are doing that now. Sam is in his 30s. I think it's time for him to accept the responsibility and the consequences for his own choices. Dean has always done that.
I am not saying that Dean will use his powers for good. My point is that the show simply has not laid out a coherent enough story to even know what the Mark does, how it works, or what it is doing to Dean, so how can anyone speculate as to what is going to happen. The MoC, so far, has not been a real story, and all we know at this point is that Sam is going to work with a questionable person and that is going to lead to bad things happening. We don't know if those bad things will happen to Sam or to Dean, but whoever it happens to and whatever happens is solely on Sam.
In I honestly hope if this season ends on a good cliffhanger they build on that in actually tell us a story again.I wished that last season. Now I have serious suspicions they intentionally don't want to establish a storyline for their seasons. This way they'll have the option to use the show as a platform for anything they like, like an audition stage for the spin-off, or a clown school stage for something like the musical.I also did not sign on for a Ensemble cast either.True, but that seems to be where we're heading.
ReplyDeleteEven so, I wouldn't have minded if the ensemble cast was at least interesting. Like Bobby and Rufus and Ellen and Jo and Gabriel and Balthazar. But if they are going to be Charlie and Metatron and Rowena then count me out. Even the two interesting regulars - Castiel and Crowley - are stuck babysitting the unwelcome guests whenever the show's attention is diverted to them.
In addition to what you say, the show has always been about choice (free will) over destiny, and Dean adamantly denied Cain's prophesy when Cain was spouting it. I think the key is going to be Sam and Cas' deceit, but I don't know what that will lead Dean to do.
ReplyDelete(Even so, I wouldn't have minded if the ensemble cast was at least interesting.)
ReplyDeleteYeah that could of helped more. We kill off the interesting ones in let the ones that's not very good eat up all the air time.
(I wished that last season. Now I have serious suspicions they intentionally don't want to establish a storyline for their seasons.)
It sure looks like it specially going by some of their interviews. I mean who does not plan a season for a show. Hell I plan something as small as a grocery list.
It's perfectly fine to to leave a show that's lost its quality for you. I'm mostly watching it out of loyalty to its fandom and characters, and because I love writing these reviews and reading the comments. I feel like it's my duty to give people who don't worship Charlie and the SPN writers a space to voice their opinion, otherwise TPTB might think all fans love the current state of the show. Had it not been for these reasons I too might have stopped watching the Charlie/Clair/Metatron/Rowena show.
ReplyDeleteThere's a reason Swan Song is such a powerful episode and the true ending of the show for many fans. It's pretty much the only time one brother let the other sacrifice himself for the greater good.I never thought I would say this but I agree with this statement so much. I always side-eyed those fans who claimed the real Supernatural was S1-S5. Now I'm one of them.
ReplyDeleteShe was pursued, struggled with her assailants and was shot as she was fleeing. How does that make her less of a Sue? She was pursued because she's the center of the bad guys' attention (stealing that spot from Sam or Dean.) She struggled so we could witness her wield a cool-ass sword. And she was shot for added whump (notice how she gets injured in one way or another in all her late appearances,) and so she could later tell us about her excellent field medic skills.There is an in universe explanation for her being a competent fighter (her time in Oz).What did she do in OZ? Does anyone know anything beyond her dark self single-handedly defeating an unidentified army?When Sam is talking about where he's at in his life, Charlie isn't robbing Sam of his agency as a character by being the one he's bouncing his woes off of.Really? Because to me it sounded like she was competing in the woes Olympics with him without having any woes to talk about. Like I said. She's not stuck in the life. She's barely got her foot in. She could leave any time. Her complaining about her lot in life to Sam is like someone suffering from a soar throat moaning to a cancer patient.metatron I liked here, basically trolling Cas on his purpose, he reminded me of the Clown from the Spawn comics, this nuisance plaguing the characters occasionally leveling up to serve as a legitimate threat.I might have liked him too if they kept his personality as that. But they won't. He's all over the place, especially this episode. Last season he mocked Castiel for loving humanity, now he loves it himself. Shouldn't there be at least a conflict in him. Of course not, because why would Thompson even remember last season. He has an excellent chance to be rid of Castiel for good when the cupid attacked him. Yet, what does he do? Save his ass.
ReplyDeleteNo character is interesting, or even tolerable if they don't have a set, identifiable personality every writer adheres to. This is the biggest issue with the guest stars (and even the regulars) this season. They don't observe their own personal character profiles, or simple logic (gripe #5) or consequences of past actions (gripe #7.)
"I like your surmise that Metatron saved Castiel just to have the
ReplyDeletetalkathon in the library. THAT is Metatron, it's important to him to
TELL you how much smarter he is than you."
There's also survival. If Metatron hadn't saved Castiel and stabbed the cupid in the back, he'd have been next.
Did Charlie say she hacked into Chuck's computer and read the rest of
ReplyDeletethe books? Or did Chuck publish beyond season 3 because that's where the
books were at when we met him last. This is another mythology mystery
for me. I could swear the Supernatural chronicles ended with Dean going
to hell and then the published went bankrupt so where did Charlie and
the girls from the musical read about Castiel?
Charlie told them about that in "Slumber Party" - someone with the handle BeckyWinchester176 uploaded all of Carver's unpublished work to the internet.
She also said that the nun went into seclusion for years and then came back with the book - so she probably peeled herself, wrote a page, waited for the skin to grow back and did it again.
ReplyDeleteI've no problem with him not burning it - it'd be disappointing if he simply threw away a promising lead like that. But handing over its contents to Rowena - a powerhungry witch - that's just unbearable.
ReplyDeleteJust went back and checked. In the disaster that was called "Slumber Party" (shudders in horror), Charlie said all the unpublished books were uploaded by Becky Winchester. How sad is it that Charle makes me miss Becky? At least the writers and most fans knew she was an exaggerated character. I feel like Charlie is just as bad but most people aren't getting the joke. Or worse, there is no joke.
ReplyDeleteYour post is long so I won't quote it, but I assure you I read it all. To me it seems like we are on different frequencies. Perhaps I'm watching the show more from a casual viewer's point of view while you're one of those fans who post analyses and help fill in the blanks in the current canon. Still your explanation for why Metatron saved Castiel is weak because he could have escaped as soon as the cupid got into a tangle with Cas, which is what every prisoner does when their guard gets into a spot of trouble and an opening appears. In a better written show Metatron would have been at the wheel of the car and fishtailing away by the time Cas finished his wrestling match, or got ganked by the cupid.
ReplyDeleteAs for Dean staying in the headlock, again I don't understand your logic. Are you trying to tell me any of those conditioned changed when the guy finished his monologue? It makes no sense to come up with excuses why Dean wouldn't get out of his locked position when at the end of the talk he actually did. My problem is why then, and not right away.
Sam opening up to Charlie would have been giving Sam the POV except Charlie once again snatched the ball and made the conversation about herself. Did you miss the part where she started bemoaning her own life? It might have not sounded that way to you but to me she was making it sound like she and Sam shared the same woes and therefore understood each other. Uh, no.
Also why Charlie of all people? She's been barely with them. Honestly it would have made more sense if it were Jody. She was with them much longer and has the type of motherly personality that would make one feel like opening up to her.
Anyway, you seem to focus much on the finer tooth details where I see the overall tone (the fanfiction tone.) Where you see Charlie showing weakness I see Thompson finding an excuse for sympathy toward her. Where she is pursued by the Stynes you could say because she held the book while my gripe is why make her the one holding the book. Why is she everywhere in everyone's business doing everyone's job and being everyone's listening ear when she's had barely any background or similar experiences as the Winchesters?
But I guess you could be right. If one doesn't hate Charlie and could fill the holes in the writers' scripts with explanation derived from fan meta and analysis (that's where I'm assuming the angel/heaven explanation in you post is coming from) they wouldn't have any issues with this episode. It could be I'm not trying hard enough.
How does that make her less of a Sue? She was pursued because she's the
ReplyDeletecenter of the bad guys' attention (stealing that spot from Sam or Dean.)
She struggled so we could witness her wield a cool-ass sword. And she
was shot for added whump (notice how she gets injured in one way or
another in all her late appearances,) and so she could later tell us
about her excellent field medic skills.
I strongly believe that this is your prejudice talking. The villains were focused on the book - not on her. Case in point - when they came face to face with Dean, all they talked about was the book and its properties and the mark and only mentioned Charlie in passing. Her stealing the spotlight would've involved greater connection to the book - like her being drawn to it or absorbing the text on her skin like tattoos. Characters get injured on the show all the time and they patch themselves up all the time as well. That doesn't mean that the injury is to add whump. Nor were her medic skills shown to be "excellent".
Her being shown as a Mary-Sue here would've involved a tough fight with her pursuers with fancy ninja sword moves and a montage of her gritting her teeth while sewing herself up. Her getting injured again and again is simply proof that she is still a novice.
I gave up on it after episode 4. I think I may be done for good after reading this overview. And I'm with Tessa - if Charlie joins full time, I'll never watch another episode again. I'm gobsmacked she's getting even worse with the Mary Sue-ness as time goes on.
ReplyDeleteStill your explanation for why Metatron saved Castiel is weak because he
ReplyDeletecould have escaped as soon as the cupid got into a tangle with Cas,
which is what every prisoner does when their guard gets into a spot of
trouble and an opening appears. In a better written show Metatron would
have been at the wheel of the car and fishtailing away by the time Cas
finished his wrestling match, or got ganked by the cupid.
He did try to escape - watch the scene again. The cupid started fighting Cas and Metatron turned around and started to "run". Except, given his injured leg, all he could do was limp a bit and then fall down. The Cupid knocked Cas aside for a while and came after him. He almost stabbed Metatron when Cas tackled the Cupid again and dropped his sword in the process. It seems obvious that a human Metatron, with a bad leg, tied hands and no car keys could've gotten far.
As for Dean staying in the headlock, again I don't understand your
logic. Are you trying to tell me any of those conditioned changed when
the guy finished his monologue? It makes no sense to come up with
excuses why Dean wouldn't get out of his locked position when at the end
of the talk he actually did. My problem is why then, and not right
away.
Yes - the condition that changed was the head bad guy was not within the reach for a head-butt. He needed to momentarily stun the guy in front of him so that when he got free, he could go for his gun without worrying about being stabbed in the back. So Dean lured the guy in by mumbling something and when the guy leaned in, Dean made his move.
Sam opening up to Charlie would have been giving Sam the POV except
Charlie once again snatched the ball and made the conversation about
herself. Did you miss the part where she started bemoaning her own life?
It might have not sounded that way to you but to me she was making it
sound like she and Sam shared the same woes and therefore understood
each other. Uh, no.
I missed the part where it could be called bemoaning. The whole point of the conversation seemed to be that both Sam and Charlie had similar outlook - both thought wistfully about the life they could've had but both had now chosen hunting and were okay with that choice. Also, the show has used the same device a lots of times before - the guest character talks about his/her own life and then one of the Winchesters says things that complement it. In the end, the conversation wasn't about her and i don't think you'd have had this complaint if the conversation had been with anyone else other than Charlie.
Anyway, you seem to focus much on the finer tooth details where I see
the overall tone (the fanfiction tone.) Where you see Charlie showing
weakness I see Thompson finding an excuse for sympathy toward her. Where
she is pursued by the Stynes you could say because she held the book
while my gripe is why make her the one holding the book. Why is she
everywhere in everyone's business doing everyone's job and being
everyone's listening ear when she's had barely any background or similar
experiences as the Winchesters?
I agree that she is Thompson's favored character, which is why he chose to include her in the myth-arc. The question is - does her inclusion really give it a mary-sue fanfic tone?
The role played by Charlie here could've easily been played by Frank or Rufus. Both also had similar histories with the Winchesters - in that they were comparitively recent acquaintances who'd become close to them. If either one of them had filled this role - found the book, been followed, been shot, figured out that the book was code, empathized with Sam over the nature of hunting and fought the bad guys - would you have thought that this was a fanfic with Frank or Rufus playing the role of Marty Stu?
Guess I'll have to posit an alt. version of the episode where Charlie fullfills a sue role.
ReplyDeleteOpen on a prison patrolled by a zombie horde (3 of which are shown clearly because budget). Charlie is already inside stealing the book after effortlessly deactivating security safeguards. The Steins pop up, she whips out a gun and shoots both in an over the top slo mo sequence, slides under some closing doors, but not before shooting off a witty oneliner, and as the steins pursue she's long gone and all zombies decapitated (because she's so awesome eyerole logic).
When she meets up with sam & dean she fixes their personal rift with a nifty speech because she's just that smart.
Now that I think about it, Bobby really filled alot of the sue requirements. Or Stu since male.
Charlie took out 2 people, I think, in the episode, and not effortlessly. It does feel like they dialed back Charlies capabilities precisely because of fan bemoaning (because they do pander to the different sections of the fandom).
Sue's are supposed to be ridiculously capable but I would say based just on this episode she isn't, she's moderately competent, stealing the book and fleeing from the big bads like a straight up damsel.
As an author avatar, Charlie qualifies, but as a flawless miss perfect she doesn't for this entry.
And as well, Charlie, from my understanding, is meant to be a prodigy and master new skills rather easily and there are numerous characters with those qualifies or similar whom I wouldn't qualify as a sue/ stu.
I have been a fan since the pilot and while I'm not the hugest Charlie fan I do enjoy her episodes and feel that maybe your hatedom and dissatisfaction with this admittedly disjointed season is souring you to an otherwise great episode.
I already mentioned this on IMDb, but for the next 4 weeks I will be traveling to Cuba and thus will not be able to catch Supernatural live for four weeks and for the first time since I started watching this show, I am actually thankful that the FF button will be available to me.
ReplyDelete"The villains were focused on the book - not on her"
ReplyDeleteYou're missing the point. Why did it have to be Charlie carrying the book? Why does it have to be Charlie that discovered the book? With each episode RT adds more abilities to the character that are given to her in order to insert her into the storyline. It's ridiculous the lengths that are being taken just to get Charlie involved.
You guys are all make me jealous for being able to use the FF button. Being a reviewer sucks in some ways.
ReplyDeleteHave fun in Cuba. That's another thing you're making me jealous of.
It didn't "have" to be her at all. The book needed to be found and they needed an existing guest character to go find it. Since RT wanted Charlie back, he brought her back for this. It also made sense for her to be the one to go after it.
ReplyDeleteI got a general question, and most of it is based on Sam's convo w/Charlie about the events of Season 9 and all the brother fighting: I think the brothers' relationship has gotten more and more screwy and dysfunctional over the years. They were normal in Season 1 and 2; in Season 3 Sam became unglued over Dean's Deal. That Deal was horrible for Sam. He had to be with his brother every day for a whole year waiting for him to die. I finally "got it" that Sam had a WHOLE LOT of justified resentment which he showed in Season 4 and I don't blame him one bit.
ReplyDeleteSo I personally think that Dean's Deal was just kind of a momentary madness; I fanwank it that Bobby should've seen that Dean was going to do something monumentally stupid, HIT Dean over the dead, knocked him out, tied him up and burned Sam's body. Then tell Dean, I saw how you were, I took care of it for you. Dean was off his rocker right after Sam died.
But all of the subsequent seasons I just think things have gotten more and more and MORE codependent. I can't put my finger on WHEN they were from brothers to BROTHERS (or "brothers"). What was the straw that broke the camel's back?
Was it Dean watching Sam jump into the Pit? Was it Sam being so broken after his remembered stint in Hell? I thought that Dean, once he knew about Sam being Soulless, got THAT issue solved pretty damn quickly. And his solution, ask Death to help, was one I did not foresee. Dean manages to figure out HOW to solve things rather imaginatively (like Eve or getting out of Purgatory) and here he has better instincts than Sam.
But now I think BOTH brothers are cuckoo re each other. Sometimes I feel like I am watching Can This Marriage Be Saved.
I welcome ANYBODY who has any helpful insights here. Because I have NEVER watched a show in which I worried about the characters the way I do about Sam and Dean. And I guess that makes me a "little" nuts too.
Sorry, but all of this is happening because Dean to the Mark of Cain last year, without being tricked about what it was, worse, refusing to heed Cain's warnings. There's nothing dumber than that. I guess Dean "wanted what he wanted and to hell with everybody and anything else". Right? At this point, the guys are carbon copies of each other. There's no doubt whatsoever in my mind that Dean would not have burned the book either if their positions had been reversed.
ReplyDeleteIn season 4, some people were also saying that maybe drinking demon blood wasn't so bad. It would make Sam stronger and unable him to exorcise demons without killing the host. In short, maybe it could be used for good. Most of us thought it couldn't be, because it was demonic. The mark was given to Cain by the devil himself. He then killed thousands and became the "Father of murder" before he finally stopped. How on earth can it be used for good?
ReplyDeleteNick, I should have read your last paragraph before posting. I said the same think about the demon blood! Needless to say, I agree.
ReplyDeleteFans want the codependence. They don’t like maturity. They loathe maturity. There have been three times on the show when Sam and Dean have shown maturity; Dean giving Sam
ReplyDeletepermission to jump in the Cage, Sam wanting to break the cycle and go with Death, and Sam not trying to bring Dean back when he believed he was dead. In all those three incidents Sam and Dean’s priority was other people and not themselves or their brother. The greater good took precedence over their own wants and needs. However, as I'm sure you'll recall, fans didn't take very well to the latter two times. Fans love the momentary madness because ‘drama’, and that’s how the brothers show they supposedly love each other. However, that, in recent years (back to season 6) has been twisted into something
exceptionally ugly for me. This is no longer about love, this is obsession and obligation. Love is supposed to be about the other person, doing what they want, helping them and putting them first. That doesn’t happen anymore. Now, it’s all ‘me, me, me’. ‘Love’ is now an Eminem song. It’s about causing huge pain to the other person because you can’t live without them and it’s about burning the world to get what you want; them.
I’m actually fine with Sam losing his mind over Dean’s deal. Of all things that has happened on the show that has been, for me, the most understandable and the most relatable. Dean’s demon deal, while it knew it would hurt Sam, he knew it was wrong etc, he was green enough to do it anyway. He wasn’t aware of the larger consequences; he thought the only ones who were going to pay for what he did was himself and Sam. In the same way, Sam wasn’t aware of the consequences of using his powers (he believed he was saving lives and the only person who was going to pay for what he did was Sam and he’s fine with that).
However, at the end of five seasons, Sam and Dean were supposed to have learned their lessons so for me, things started to get ugly when Dean supposedly did everything he could to break Sam out of the Cage in the off-season between season 5 and 6. It’s like the demon deal in that he wanted Sam back, but he’s now experienced enough to know that there are consequences to actions. Dean was trying to bust Sam out of a Cage that also housed Michael and Lucifer who wanted (and presumably still want) to bring about the Apocalypse. So Dean was willing to risk the deaths of everyone on the planet to get Sam back. The lessons learned in the first five seasons were thrown out the window. These extremes became the norm in later seasons, and any attempt to break that cycle was swiftly kicked down.
We don't know what Rowena's intentions are. If she wants to kill Crowley that shouldn't be a big deal because Crowley has killed loads of people and done a hell of a lot of damage.
ReplyDeleteI guess the benefits of working with that 'evil witch' are that she is a witch, the MOC is a spell, ergo she can remove the MOC. I believe that would be a benefit.
Do you think leaving a MOC inflicted Dean run around the place is more mature?
ReplyDeleteFans really need to decide what they want from Sam. When he shows maturity (by making decisions that don't make things worse) Sam shows maturity they tear him apart. When Sam does everything he can for Dean he's not being mature and stupid.
Genuine question. What is that fans want from Sam? What's acceptable? Does he just have to follow Dean's orders?
Arrow is pretty amazing at the moment. Long may it continue!
ReplyDeleteI think the show needs to decide what it wants. Does it want Sam and Dean to live solely to save each other or do they want them to be heroes? Because it's clear they can't do both. Sam and Dean has probably done more damage to innocent people because of their relationship than they have saved. The writers need to pick a side and stick with it. They were on the way there in season 8. It might not have been palatable but Sam's decision to not bring Dean back was mature. The show went even further then with the scenario of Dean not getting Castiel out of Purgatory despite knowing where he was and how to get him out. That put him on the same wavelength as Sam. But there is never any follow through on this show. They raise the ideas and then they drop them as soon as they get hard. The possession was another instance. Fantastic idea, shows dangerous thinking and the consequences of etc. However, it was minimised to nothing. So there can't be maturity while Sam and Dean are being pulled in two different directions. What is more mature, what is the right thing to do, to put your wants and needs first or to put everyone elses needs first? Going by season 8-10, it's the former.
ReplyDeleteThe best way to watch this show is to forget there was a season 1-5 (or a season 1-7), and just watch 8-10 as it's own separate show so none of the lessons they learned in the past happened.
Great review Tessa!!
ReplyDeleteI for one did not mind the episode so much until the end. The whole idea of Sam teaming with Rewona is just terrible writing and a horrible plan which I cannot see working out in any way. I mean she tried to kill Dean like an episode ago but know he wants to team with her to remove the mark and what leave them alone after?? yeah like that will happen. The rest of the episode was okay for me, I liked the concept of the book of the damned. I didn't like the Castiel / Metatron storyline at all. I for one think that they should of just written off Catiel's grace forever.
I began thinking about a storyline I would really like to see and came with an idea of the brothers taking on a villain who is not supernatural. I was thinking about a Victor Frankenstein type character who through science creates the supernatural that they have to face. I think that would give a fresh take on the series and a different perspective.
"She struggled so we could see her wield a cool-ass sword. And she was shot for added whump (notice how she gets injured one way or another in all her appearances lately,) and so she could tell us about her excellent field medic skills."
ReplyDeleteThe katana sword as her weapon of choice was my personal favorite Sueness in this episode. The katana was made for close contact fighting, which was achieved with that improbable ninja jump out of the dumpster. I wondered if Her Awesomeness learned the balance and weight skills of sword fighting by using the foam swords while Larping, if she was carrying it Samurai-style with the sharp edge up, and why wasn't she carrying a gun -- much lighter, less noticeable; not quite as "cool" though.
I think Charlie working with Rowena will be more along the lines of "Sam! Not only did you [insert horrible outcome here], but even worse you dragged Charlie into this mess." Her suffering will be the greatest although she will be completely innocent of any wrong doing and probably her brave actions will be what actually save Dean. All Sam will do is be responsible for the cataclysmic consequences.
ReplyDeleteI disagree w/your S8 example. Most people were not upset that Sam didn't try to resurrect Dean from the dead. Most of us were upset b/c Carver didn't do a good job of showing us how Sam reached the conclusion that Dean was dead. He simply didn't tell a good story. Then, he was angry that the audience didn't accept his stupid, OOC story.
ReplyDeleteDean wasn't even upset that Sam moved on w/his life. He was upset that Sam didn't "look" for him, and I can't say I blame him. The wording is important here. Dean goes on and on about Sam "looking" for him, and Sam never properly responds with, "Well, like I just said, Dean, I thought you were dead so no I didn't look for you." Why? That is a logical response, right? He Sam thought Dean were dead, then he wouldn't have looked for him.l I mean who looks for dead people? Sam never says this though. Throughout the entire season, everyone gets on Sam for not looking for Dean, and Sam just stands there silently, saying nothing in his own defense. That made no sense, and I completely understood why Dean was upset.
Plus, Carver wanted us to buy the idea that about 5 minutes after Dean disappeared, Sam concluded Dean was DEAD, decided to fix up the Impala and start a new life. Why would Sam automatically assume Dean was dead? He had asked Crowley what happened to Dean, which would imply he didn't think Dean was dead, but suddenly he decided w/in 2 minutes that Dean was dead?!?!?!? Huh?!?!? That makes no sense. Plus, let's not forget how Carver let Sam blow off Kevin - a teen w/no experience in anything, the remaining Leviathan, and even Meg. I'm sorry but that does a complete injustice to Sam's character, esp. when a story is not being told. If Sam had a breakdown, let's see it! According to Carver, he just got into the Impala and drove around for months. Sam is a stronger character than that.
So, I definitely disagree w/you. I, and many others, had no problem w/Sam moving on w/his life, but Carver needed to tell an actual story around that decision. He didn't. It's not the audience's fault that we didn't accept his crappy storytelling!
Again, I just have to respond to your S8 example. If Sam had been shown to have looked for Dean and realized Dean was in Purgatory, and there was no safe way to get him out - of course the nonsense about back doors to Purgatory couldn't have come up later in the season - and then he tried to move on w/his life, I'm sure the arc would have been better rec'd. That story would have been understandable and would have put the brothers on equal footing. We didn't get that story though. We got, "Oh, Dean just disappeared. Guess he's dead. Let me see what local college I can attend."
ReplyDeleteIt is not immature to look for someone who disappeared! The very idea that it is immature to look for a missing relative makes no sense. When people disappear, their family members usually look for them, esp. if they claim to love them. And, Sam, of all people should know that just b/c Dean disappeared doesn't mean he's dead. The reason most ppl didn't like Sam's actions in S8 was b/c Carver didn't explain how Sam reached the conclusion that Dean was dead. That's all.
Plus, Carver clearly didn't want to "mature" the boys since he had Dean beat Sam over the head w/the decision all throughout S8, and he's still bringing it up to this day! If it had been the mature decision, why didn't Carver have Dean accept it instead of browbeating Sam about all year?!?! Carver is a bad storytelller and a crappy showrunner.
IMO, the MOC has been one of the vaguest stories told on SPN. It's right up there w/Sam's ever-changing feelings about Gadreel and the possession. To this day, i have no earthly clue what this Mark is even doing to Dean. It doesn't seem to have any effect on him at all.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I could have sworn that last year, Dean was super-powered w/the Mark as well as a little violent I guess. It's hard to tell w/Dean, but I remember ppl making a big deal out of him killing those murderers from the GF episode. I didn't find it esp. violent, but may did. I do remember him lifting Abbadon up off the ground w/a sword or something, right? That has to take some super powers or super strength, but this year, he gets tossed around like a rag doll most of the time. I don't get it. There's no consistency to this story.
What I want from him is to stop with the dangerous lying.
ReplyDeleteI don't actually disagree with his looking for a way out of the MOC; it IS a dangerous affliction.
But Sam spent ALL of Season 3 telling Dean he would find a way out of his Deal. Dean told Sam that the Deal included NOT trying to back out or that Sam would die. But Sam told Dean that he would continue to look for a way out regardless.
And NOW with Metatron and The Demon Tablet on the loose, THAT is a lie that has dangerous connotations for DEAN, because Metatron seems to be fixated on making his life Hell. I totally believe Metatron's actions in Miracles were to kill somebody he saw as God's Favorite or Champion or whatever. He read the Winchester Gospels and knew that God was intervening in his own way to help Sam and Dean.
I am not unhappy with Sam's trying to save Dean. Dean seems to think a pure mind or something will help hold off the effects of the MOC; I think Dean is wrong (we all have moments of weakness and in his case being weak in this way can be deadly for humans -- and Dean still doesn't want to kill BAD humans). But Sam's and Castiel's efforts to help are putting the world and Heaven in danger (Hannah was right: Metatron was too dangerous to let out of his jail).
I agree. Dean would not have burned the book if it was the only way to save Sam from the MOC. I have no problem w/Sam not burning the book. I do have a problem w/Sam going to Rowena for help. That's just foolish. But then this entire MOC story has been foolish so I can't be too shocked w/Sam's actions.
ReplyDeleteI hear what you're saying and, ultimately, agree, but I also understand Ginger's point. My problem w/the MOC arc is w/the writers' reluctance to actually show it having any impact on Dean. He is not raging at people. He doesn't appear to be esp. violent. He doesn't seem to be in blood lust. He doesn't seem to have a burning desire to kill . . . what was it . . . Crowley, Castiel, and then Sam. In fact, Dean seems perfectly fine w/MOC so why would Sam trust Rowena to help him. Turning to Rowena would be a move born out of desperation, but I see no reason for Sam to be desperate at this point.
ReplyDeleteIn short, I don't think the writers set up this story very well. I'm just not feeling any urgency w/the story. I'm not scared for Dean or worried for him. There's been too much of nothing happening for me to be concerned w/the Mark. What can I say? The execution of this story is simply not working for me!
I can see it happening that way, now that you said it. I still don't get all the upset that Dean broke Dark!Charlie's arm. D!C had already tortured and murdered in his presence and gotten away twice BECAUSE Dean would not use full strength to stop her.
ReplyDeleteIf he had just let her go into the guy who'd split into the Wizard D!C might've killed Sam. And that is ALWAYS Dean's line in the sand.
I think the MOC arc is being put in to show Dean being HEROIC in his self- control.
ReplyDeleteIn the beginning (Season 9) it was referenced as being fed steroids and the 'roid rage that comes with that. The effects of the MOC were MUCH more evident in Season 9, culminating in the "birth" of Demon!Dean. But we don't know if the MOC resurrected Dean or the FIRST BLADE PLUS the MOC resurrected Dean (so that if he dies again he stays in stasis until somebody puts the Blade in his hands).
I don't mind a little mystery. The show could change tomorrow what is happening because Dean is showing now that while he is human he has a little bit of that debbil in him.
I think Cain totally undersold the "price some would say burden" of the First Blade. If he had said you become a demon and a kill-crazy one at that, Dean might've tried to revisit the way they put Abaddon down in As Time Goes By. It would've been messier but it could've been done.
ReplyDeleteI don't "blame" Cain per se because he finally found the one who could kill him and Cain just wanted out of this life. But I do think Cain while liking and admiring Dean also did him a disservice. Cain HAD the time to tell him about the adverse effects. So it was not "full disclosure" by any means.
Isn't that just about the grossest thing EVER?
ReplyDeleteThe two brothers and Castiel are always MAGNIFICENT
ReplyDeleteDoes Sam know Metatron is on the loose and he has the demon tablet?
ReplyDeleteAlso, Dean not telling Sam or Castiel what Cain said is dangerous for Sam and Castiel.
And your last line has summed up the problem with the entire mentality of the brothers (Dean included). What they do to 'help' puts others in danger. But they continue doing it anyway. And if you look back at season 8 this is what people demanded Sam do, what they tore him apart for not doing. Sams hands are always tied in terms of what he is permitted and not permitted to do. If he works with them he's wrong or stupid. If he doesn't he's selfish and stupid. The cost of saving Dean is going to have casualties. It always does. The cost of not saving him will ensure there are even more casualties.
It's interesting, as with season 2, had Dean not brought Sam back then the chain of events that followed might never have happened. Could this finally be the reason for Dean to leave well enough alone?
I just thought of this: I think Charlie is supposed to have gotten her fighting skills in Oz. She WAS the "warrior who won the war" after all.
ReplyDeleteWe didn't see it happen. And for all we know time moves differently in Oz (I "think" Dorothy said that in HER hideous episode) so Charlie could have gotten a LOT of training time.
Well, it works for me BUT I don't think I should need a MENSA card to figure out ancillary plot issues.
This! I mean even soulless S6 Sam looked for Dean in that x files episode. It was like for 30 minutes, but he still looked.
ReplyDeleteWhat they could of done was have Sam look for his brother in fail, but make sure the audience see that in flash backs. The meeting would of been better to me if Sam was about to hit the dog swerve in flipped his car. Amelia drives by in help get Sam out of the car in get him help. Then we could see how things develop with them. I could of liked her better.
But the way they wrote her at first was very hard. In the way they had Sam in La La land without trying to find nothing was just wrong. Bad story telling.
Interesting thought. I can see Charlie working with Rowena being the "twist" to make the audience think Rowena is on the up and up, since this is a rehash of Sam's Ruby story.
ReplyDeleteI don't blame Dean for the attempt to get Sam out of the cage before finding out that Sam was already out. Because Castiel had already done so on the FIRST day of the post-Apocalypse.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the Deal broke Sam just as much as Dean.
I could see Sam NOT going after Dean in Purgatory but only if it was shown that he had tried. More upsetting than leaving Dean was giving up on KEVIN. If Sam had saved Kevin, or just "answered the damn phone" I think I could let it go.
Intellectually, I KNOW that Sam had spent most of season 7 having a nervous breakdown. Dean was his support group. Losing that could cause a "break." But the deal of letting KEVIN twist in the wind was a deal-breaker for me.
I am not going to argue S1 - S5 a half a decade later. That story is over.
ReplyDeleteWhat I do agree with is that these writers are using poached stories for the Winchesters now...and the second telling isn't as good as the first time around.
And let's get this point off the table. Yes, Dean took on the MoC willingly and without knowing or caring about the consequences. As late as this episode, he admits that through narrative, saying that it was his 'cross' to bear.
I do stand by my comment that Dean not telling Sam about the Cain prophesy is not a lie and is an invalid excuse to justify Sam and Cas outright lying to Dean. It is also not a valid justification to anticipate how the viewers may or may not view Sam's actions about what might happen between now and the end of the season, since none of us know what that may be. Both are idle speculation at this point, because so far the Mark has amounted to nothing but a tattoo on Dean's arm and there has been no coherent story told to give any clues.
I also agree that the Winchesters have had no stake in the stories being told up until now but, what the stakes are now is also idle speculation, so saying poor Sam will be blamed for...whatever...amounts to nothing more than showing character bias.
Yep, I agree.
ReplyDeleteNo, they didn't need a guest star to find it. They have a bunker filled with information on the Supernatural and two hunters who have been dealing with this kind of stuff their whole lives. Yet a computer hacker with only a few years experience in hunting was able to magically find this book that Sam (a master of research) couldn't? Not to mention her being able to wield a highly specialized weapon with no problem. Or that fact that she had a full on panic attack breaking in to her own job a few years ago now she's Thomas Crown, pulling off museum heist. Her staying in the bunker and updating files makes sense. Researching cases for the guys makes sense. What doesn't make sense is to turn her into a badassninjawarroirexpertmuseumtheifscholarofancentartifactquirkyfunlittlesister. What makes her a Mary Sue is the fact that RT puts her right smack in the middle of the storyline for no reason and gives her previously unheard of abilities to make sure she is there front and center. We finally get Sam talking about what he was feeling last season but it was to CHARLIE, someone who really had no idea what was going on and who decided to interrupt Sam's catharsis to talk about her own problems. All the crap Sam has gone through tht he couldn't prevent and Charlie seems to think its more important to bitch about her problems even though she can, you know, WALK AWAY. You like Charlie? Fine. People can like a Mary Sue, but don't argue that she isn't one. And don't tell people their "prejudices" are showing when they get frustrated that this type of character is still around and ruining a show they enjoy.
ReplyDeleteI'm having trouble getting into it.
ReplyDeleteThat story is not over because the events of seasons 1-5 influence season 7-10. And while posters expect a character to behave in a different way because of their experiences in seasons 1-5 (ie Sam shouldn’t work with Rowena because he worked with Ruby) then the story is not over. The show doesn’t exist in a vacuum whereby only seasons 7-10 exist.
ReplyDeleteThe MOC is not just Dean's 'cross to bear'. It is everyones cross to bear because Cain said that Dean will kill Sam, Castiel and Crowley so they are all affected by it. It is also Sam's cross because he has already been affected by it ie Dean chasing him through the bunker with a hammer.
If you believe that Dean not telling Sam about the prophecy is not a lie, but Sam not telling Dean about Bobby etc is a lie then whatever. I've no clue how you're justifying it. Perhaps it’s that word you used at the end of your post; character bias? A lie by omission is still a lie. And if you believe that they are not lies then Sam has never lied to Dean therefore he has no reason not to trust him because all he did was not tell him the truth. (Oh wait, that is the definition of a lie!)
No. Nobody knows what will happen between then and now so yes, it is idle speculation. Discussion most often leads to speculation. If it did not then there would be no need for these threads. Much of what you post is speculation.
In relation to the Mark amounting to nothing more than a tattoo, it has amounted to more than that. The story might, once again, be crappily told, but it is being told. The Mark is more than just a tattoo. It affects Dean greatly. You might have missed the numerous episodes of Dean staring in the mirror, grasping his arm, the black eyes, the Michael Jackson wind machine slow motion kills whenever he kills big. We've seen him needing to be brought back from the edge etc. He killed all the people in the room in
10.09. Add that to the nightmares, trying to kill Sam (sure, it was because he was a demon which was brought on by the MOC) and the many, many times this season and last where Dean has been told of the how dangerous it is to him and everyone around him. Like I said, the story might be terribly told but it is being told. Certainly enough to make the mark more than just a tattoo.
The idea that Sam will be blamed for ….whatever ...is based on more than idle speculation. It’s based on 9 years of the show and 9 years of reading comments such as yours where he IS blamed for more than just whatever.
I know, I just don't get WHY Dean was going off the rails LAST season but not THIS season.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't appear mostly himself? This goes to Tessa's original point that Dean isn't suffering from the effects of the Mark so you'd (I'd notice).
I "do" get that it was a shock to Sam and Castiel, when say, Dean Bladed Gadreel, and he was uncontrollable.
I don't know where this is heading.
There's that complaint that the show is "all talk, no show." But even in season 9 when Dean was dealing with the Mark, and it was being done in a fairly subtle manner, there were complaints, "the show isn't telling us." It's a lose lose situation. It's either anvils when they talk about it, or not talking enough.
ReplyDeleteTechnically, Metatron didn't pass gas, that was just the sound of the indigestion from the lactose intolerance.
Angry cupid was pretty self-explanatory. He was a cupid that was angry at what Castiel and Metatron did. Cupids are always stationed on Earth, and get their orders from Heaven, they kinda lost purpose after what went down w/ Cas and Metatron.
Yeah, but Styne and his men were clearly stronger than the average person, considered what it took for Dean to kill the one guy, and how Styne nearly kicked the door off its hinges at the cabin.
I'm pretty sure the fall isn't what caused the wings to get clipped, though it probably didn't help. Because remember, cupids are always stationed on Earth, and get orders from Heaven to match people. So they would have lost their wings without falling. But I think the thing with the angry cupid was that it happened upon Cas and Metatron, and just, like it said, wanted revenge for what they did to Heaven.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't have said it better myself regarding your points.
ReplyDeleteThough I think Sam going to Rowena makes some sense, the Book of the Damned is old magic, and what better person to crack it than an old witch?
I thought Dean's change in demeanor made sense. Yeah, he's been hiding his fear and whatnot. But when he gets news on an actual bonafide lead that can remove the Mark, why wouldn't he get excited?
Heaven Can't Wait was on TNT today and on watching it I noted that Crowley said that there is no way to undo or counteract Metatron's spell.
ReplyDeleteSO it has a continuous effect (that was what I came up with WHY Castiel's wings were a mess); kind of like "everybody" on The Walking Dead has the walker virus in their system.
I DO wonder however if Michael and Lucifer were ever to get OUT of the Cage if their wings would be similarly injured? Hey, come to think of it, Metatron used the portal exclusively himself, didn't he? So the spell clipped his wings too. Anybody remember Metatron teleporting after the Fall-Spell?
I think the "upset"was because Dean didn't need to use his full strength to stop her. Sure, he was holding back a lot initially, not only because he wanted to avoid hurting her but also because he didn't want the mark to take over. But Dean should've been able to stop her by fighting seriously but without breaking her arm or beating her up that badly - and that happened because Dean lost control due to the Mark.
ReplyDeleteMetatron used the portal to get into Heaven, his spell in addition to clipping the angel's wings, locked up the front gates. So he needed to make himself a side-entrance to get in and out.
ReplyDeleteHow about not trusting the manipulative, power-hungry witch with the darkest secrets of the blackest spellbook?
ReplyDeleteI thought Rowena made her intentions pretty clear - she wants to discover, learn and practice the deepest, darkest and the most dangerous spells out there and kill anyone who stands in her way or could possibly threaten her. The only reason she wants the MoC off Dean would be so that she could kill him right after - and that would not be a benefit for Sam.
ReplyDeleteHe teleported when he came to Gadreel and he teleported when he met the Winchesters for the prisoner exchange.
ReplyDeleteThey did need a guest star to find it. The whole hunt for the book doesn't seem either interesting or dangerous. No dangerous enemies were racing to find it. No dragons in booby-trapped lairs were standing guard over it. There were no dangerous quests involved in the process. Sam and Dean doing all the boring stuff required to find it would've made for dull television - so the job had to be farmed out to Charlie.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Sam could've found the book - in fact, he was going to find the book before Charlie offered her services instead. A few years worth of experience is more than enough here. Sure, she was nervous about breaking into a monster's office a few years ago, but she must've gotten more used to breaking and entering now and she wasn't remotely in the same kind of danger this time around. Nor does she use any "highly specialized weapons".
She didn't get any unheard of abilities - in fact, all her abilities would be what one expects from an amateur hunter - good at breaking into places, an average researcher and an average fighter. Nor was she given the centre stage in this episode's drama.
The fact that Sam talked about his feelings is what's important here - but instead of focusing on that, you focus on who he was talking to. If it had been any other guest star in the same conversation - starting with Sam saying something about his past, the guest star empathizing with something from his own life and then Sam building on that and revealing deeper insights - that wouldn't have bothered you. I know this because the writers have used the same technique many times over and I don't remember people raising objection. But since this was with Charlie, all you could see is her usurping the spotlight.
The simple fact is, she wasn't a Mary Sue in this episode - she was just a regular guest. I have no strong feelings towards Charlie one way or the other. In the episode where her role is that of a side-character, like in her intro - I'm okay with her. Where it overshadows the main characters' story by being a Mary Sue - like in the Oz episode or the Dark!Charlie episode, I dislike her. I didn't dislike her here because the writers didn't focus the episode on her. But apparently you dislike her so much that her very presence in the episode makes you focus exclusively on her in all scenes - even if she isn't the focus there - and then declare that she's being made into a Mary Sue.
Actually, that is more fitting with her personality than any accusation of her sueness. A geeky fangirl like her would prefer a cool looking but impractical weapon over the more conventional and effective tools that Winchesters use.
ReplyDeleteAlso, she clearly does not know much about sword-fighting - not using a two-handed grip and letting it get knocked out of her hand and not dealing anything more than a scratch to the mail villain. It also showed the stupidity of - as they say - "bringing a knife to a gun fight". All of which is opposite of what you'd find in a Mary Sue.
Though I think Sam going to Rowena makes some sense, the Book of the
ReplyDeleteDamned is old magic, and what better person to crack it than an old
witch?
The king of hell with vast knowledge of witch-craft and one who is nominally on their side.
An angel with knowledge of ancient languages and one of the few people he could trust fully.
A Man of Letters with vast treasure trove of magical knowledge where the key to cracking the code may be discovered, i.e. keep it himself.
The three other centuries old and much more powerful witches who've not shown themselves to be as antagonistic as this one.
Apart from the Stynes, I cannot think of a worse person to trust here. Even Metatron might've been a better choice here,
I am not sure if he was shown as teleporting when he met with Gadreel in Holy Terror, he was just THERE when Gadreel came on the scene. BUT I do remember the prisoner exchange, that Sam and Dean put down some kind of "angel trap" and Metatron teleported into it and then destroyed it.
ReplyDeleteMartin (didn't see you yesterday, was glad to see you this morning, didn't remember to say Good Morning) do you know what happened to Metatron's Grace? Cas put it into a vial and then I don't know where it was. Was Castiel carrying it in his pocket the whole time? Was Metatron going around the library shelf corner to get the Grace or kill immobilized Castiel? Did Castiel give the vial to Sam to keep it in the protected MOL Bunker? Was it just not addressed and you think it'll be brought up later? Or was I somehow distracted and missed what Sam and Castiel did with it?
You tend to notice these things.
Oh, you once mentioned supernatural wiki re "roofies" and said they only had the one reference (from the Purge) but I recently watched Simon Said and Dean was complaining that Andy roofied him so anything he said did not count. So in that episode Dean was showing some "history" with roofies. (I wanted to respond to you then but I forgot about it. Until today.)
Yeah, he was trying to calibrate the fight, but he was unable to anticipate how strong Dark!Charlie was in the first fight (where she had just tortured somebody) and then she outsmarted him once (and stole baby) and then snuck by him at the bar: all because he could not BELIEVE what Dark!Charlie was capable of.
ReplyDeleteShe'd gotten around him THREE times in the episode and wasn't getting around him again.
If he was truly using control Sam saying "DEAN" would not have been able to stop. (And I do appreciate that Dean REALLY "obeys" Sam re the MOC.)
Pretty sure Metatron's grace wasn't addressed at all. The last we saw, Cas was holding it while Sam shot Metatron. It'd make sense for him to hand it over to Sam so that Metatron wouldn't have the opportunity to steal it back.
ReplyDeleteAs fro Metatron, after getting the demon tablet, he was going after Castiel's grace. As I recall, his exact words were: "Hello, demon tablet. The places I'd go with this." [walks over to the Cas' aisle] "And your grace." [Sees that Cas already has his grace vial in hand] "Well, one out of two ain't bad."
Instead of trying to find a point where the Winchester co-dependent relationship went from normal to nutty, think of it as a series of gradual changes pushing them further and further.
ReplyDeleteThe brothers were never fully "normal" - in that they'd go further for each-other than they'd go for anyone else. In the beginning, while their bond was the closest, they also had other things in their lives. Sam had the possibility of leaving the hunt and settling down. Dean, though he didn't want that, did think of it as a possible option for him. They had other friends, other hunters and family, people they could depend on. One by one, all these things were takes away from them. As a result of each loss, they grew more and more reliant on each-other.
One thing about getting more reliant on each-other is that the lines they are willing to cross to save each-other goes further and further. For example, in Croatoan, Dean was willing to shoot the guy who might or might not have been infected, but when Sam was definitely infected, he wouldn't even consider killing him. Similarly, Sam seeking out a "dubious" faith healer without doing the necessary background check also shows how much he cared for Dean. So, I'd say they've always been a little bit nuts about each-other. It has only gotten more and more pronounced over the seasons because of all the other losses they've suffered.
Written well, their co-dependence can be the strongest point of the show. But co-dependence doesn't mean their making stupid decisions - ones they know would have worse consequences - and that's where bad writing comes in.
So Metatron "could" teleport, but it was only to and from the Portal. NOBODY can now teleport from Earth to Heaven because Heaven is closed to ALL.
ReplyDeleteDo you think Metatron's spell would affect the two Archangels?
You're confusing "sacrifice for greater good" with maturity and that's not accurate. The boys being mature doesn't mean that they should let the other person sacrifice himself for the "greater good" - all it requires that they learn from their past mistakes.
ReplyDeleteKeeping secrets from one another, even when they know how it always turns bad - that is a sign of immaturity.
Making deals that you know have a high chance of turning bad - that's immaturity.
Bringing your brother back on terms you know he wouldn't be able to live with - that's immaturity.
And those are the examples of bad writing where the audience has a problem with their actions.
So you think it is the loss of all their ancillary friends that have kind of driven them mad? I can agree. Everybody that helps them dies so (except for Charlie, Garth and Jodi as of now and maybe the Professor from the Amazon episode who moved to Papua New Guinea) so that cuts them off from almost all "real" human interaction (we saw Dean talk to "his" bartender recently but I don't think he confides in that guy).
ReplyDeleteI think the horror of seeing Dean die in No Rest for the Wicked was a truly transformative moment for Sam. And I know that Dean agreed with Sam's decision to "die" with Lucifer in Swan Song but he was bereft. It is a rare thing to see a character actually bereft. And since that time Dean has gotten nuttier and nuttier on the subject of Saving Sammy. And Sam pretended that he was MUCH less nutty on the topic of Saving Dean. But now we see Sam is nutty as well.
I can understand the psychological reasons for all of this. And I really LOVE how sweet Castiel is about the whole thing. Turns his head Just So with a smile. SO understanding about getting kicked out of the Bunker because Something Was Wrong with Sammy.
I hope the show ends with them dying together. Can't think of another way to end the show.
Well, he could teleport anywhere, but just needed the portal to get in and out of Heaven.
ReplyDeleteProbably, an angel is an angel. Archangels may be stronger, but they still die the same.
Castiel, Jody, Garth, Charlie, Krissy, Cole are the only real hunting allies they have now.*
ReplyDeleteLinda Tran and Becky are still around too.
*I'll wait until Sheriff Donna makes another appearance before adding her to that list.
Also, Sam and Dean finding the book stashed away somewhere in the Mid West, seems, I don't know too easy? By sending Charlie halfway around the world to get it, adds a hint of scope, even though we didn't see her actually retrieve it.
ReplyDeleteWhat personality? Charlie Sue is whatever Robbie Thompson wants her to be in each individual episode. There is nothing real about that character.
ReplyDeleteThat of a geeky fangirl - which has remained consistent.
ReplyDeleteI posted this on IMBD and I'll say it here as well. It's annoying as hell (and incredibly disrespectful to ACTUAL military historians and the man himself) that geeky computer fangirl pulls out an Alan Turing reference. I have a Masters in military history and wouldn't have said that. Am I really supposed to believe that a hacker knows enough about Ultra and Bletchly Park to make off-hand references? And don't tell me she saw "The Imitation Game" while traveling across the globe welding a sword and breaking into museums. How is that not pandering to the Tumblr crowd?
ReplyDeleteMakes sense for the archangels. But I have seen lots of speculation of one or the other of the archangels being released from the Cage in the finale. And I thought that Lucifer and Michael were just levels of power more powerful than any regular angel. But I don't KNOW of course.
ReplyDeleteI can't make up my mind if I want to see Lucifer and Michael back again. I always felt I wanted to see Jensen's Michael, but I have also seen speculation he gets possessed by Lucifer, as the MOC makes Dean Lucifer's. I would like to see him play either character.
Dean saying that the Book of the Damned was too dangerous to use pointed me to him understanding that saving him could not be at all costs. So he appears to have grown up a little bit. Of course, we don't know what he'd do if it was SAMMY with the MOC.
ReplyDeleteBut I do this watching Kevin be murdered in front of him led him to realize SOME of his crackpot ideas are truly crackpot.
The Michael/Lucifer storyline is done, they don't need to be revisted.
ReplyDeleteApart from the fact that shows aren't made for military historians, why would such a reference be disrespectful? Any such reference has nothing to do with military history and everything to do with his contributions as a computer scientist. A hacker like Charlie would make references to him. Besides, she might as well have seen "The Imitation Game" on one of the many flights she undoubtedly took.
ReplyDeleteTo be clear, I use the word "nutty" only to denote the progressed level of co-dependence as opposed to the initial level. But make no mistake, given the psychological reasons behind it, I don't find their co-dependency anything like that. As a matter of fact, given the amount of psychological trauma they've endured, I'd say that their ability to still rely on and believe in each-other is the only thing keeping them sane.
ReplyDeleteTo see some truly nutty sibling relationships, take a look at The Vampire Diaries or The Originals. The Winchesters are downright healthy and well-adjusted compared to that.