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Supernatural - Season 10 Episode 17 - The Gripe Review

5 Apr 2015

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Happy Easter Supernatural fans and welcome to another pre-hiatus Gripe Review for the show we all love like a sweet drug we can't quit but probably should.

This week's episode had all the makings of a solid story: A Dean focused plot, a mythology based setting, and every major character currently on the show doing something, plus Bobby as bonus. Yet it was strangely unsatisfactory, like a nicely decorated dish that tasted bland. I've been trying to figure out why this was the case since I watched it the first time.

Of course there's the gripes listed below. But I can't help to think something more is wrong, something foundational that surpasses the worn awnings of the porch, or the squeaky hinges of the door. For the first time I'm having suspicions that the fault isn't just with the writers, but the cast as well.


I always assumed it was the writers who forced J2 to perform in subpar scripts. But this week the thought occurred to me that it might be the other way around. We've all heard about them asking for time off to be with their families. That time off had never been as obvious as in this episode. Sure the whole cast was there, but it felt like they were each performing on their own separate stages. Dean and Castiel never talked; heck, Dean didn't even know Castiel was in the episode, or Bobby for that matter. Bobby only interacted with Castiel and Metatron. His communication with Sam was limited to a letter and a radio transmission, hinting that perhaps he and J2 were on non-overlapping schedules.

Sam and Dean themselves didn't have that much interaction. In a highly emotional episode with a lot of heavy plot, the sum total of their shared dialogue was those bits in the beginning and the end. And what's more, you could have entirely eliminated Dean from the episode and not lost a thing, if we considered Crowley intelligent enough to skip the pep talk and get rid of his mother on his own.


I won't judge without evidence. But if what is said is true, if the reason there is so little overlap between characters and storylines on the show is because the main actors want to take extra time off, then I would be highly disappointed. Writers I could blame with no discontent. Most of them are new people who probably don't care as deeply about the show as fans do. But Jared and Jensen are Sam and Dean. They are veterans. My understanding always was that they cared about the show and its fans on a much deeper level.Understandably not as much as their families, but enough to not want to sabotage its senior years. This can't be just a job to them, not after they spent ten years on it and practically grew old with it. I would be very sad to think all they thought of at this stage was to pocket a check and get through the lackluster scripts. This used to be a great show, one of the best of its kind. It would be a shame if it went out with a whimper because its main cast gave up on it.


Gripe #1 – Where is Dean's suffering?

Remember when Sam came back from hell? Remember how he had Lucifer in his head and went through a meat grinder before he ended up in a mental hospital? How about when he was doing the trials and visibly deteriorated to the point of resembling a walking corpse? I swear that season the make up department had a bigger task to do on him than on any of the monsters the Winchesters hunted.

This week we heard from Sam and Castiel several times how badly Dean was doing, yet the only evidence we saw was him having a nightmare, which mustn't have been too bad since it didn't even wake him up. I've had nap dreams that woke me up faster than that moan and scream fest Dean had that night. Besides, nightmares had been with Dean since season 3. Unless Sam had been truly oblivious to his brother's troubles until this season, what we saw at the beginning of this episode was nothing new or alarming.


The rest of the Dean side of the episode was more of the same. Instead of actually showing us how Dean was deteriorating - to back up Sam's insistence that things had reached red alert zone - we see him hustle pool with a bunch of college kids, whom he despises for no apparent reason. Then he chats with Rowena with no meaningful outcome. She threatens to kill the kids if Dean doesn't do what she says, but I'm not quite sure what exactly it is she wants other than for Dean to die,which he obviously disagrees with. Then we see Dean hanging out with his old pal Crowley, during which time he dispenses pearls of wisdom from his three decades of  human experience to a centuries old demon.

Maybe I'm not looking hard enough but I didn't see this terrible misery his family was talking about, at least not compared to what the same thing meant for Sam when he was inflicted with plot whumpage. It's as if the writers care as little about the effects of the mark as Dean himself does . If his condition was truly that critical why was the only expression of it a nightmare and a few flashbacks of killing demons and bad guys in the past, which are no more traumatic than anything he'd been through his whole life?


Gripe #2 - What the hell is the deal with Heaven?

A lot of people have pointed out the inconsistencies in the latest episodes in which human souls that should be trapped in the veil still moved on. I didn't put it in my gripes because, in all honesty, I myself don't understand the mythology of the ghosts after Heaven's closure, and the idea behind the veil, and I believe neither do the writers.

Many of the writers seem to be unclear about what's going on in Heaven in general. Since it burst open like a water balloon at the end of season 8 no one has given us any precise information on its state, or the state of the souls that are supposed to go there. The angels appear to have moved back in, save for Castiel for unknown reasons. But there is no indication who or what is in charge. This episode seemed to imply Hannah was running the joint (again for undisclosed reasons.) Old souls still occupied their imaginary, perfect worlds, but were treated like prisoners rather than rewarded guests. The only thing the writers seem to agree on is that its portal opens in a playground, so that innocent children could accidentally have a taste of the afterlife I guess.

Speaking of afterlife, Hell's mythology is no less of a mess, with Rowena walking in and out of it like a bar around the corner, and employees using Windows 8 to track its supernatural activities. Remind me to tell Microsoft to add "compatibility with blood bowl seances" to the list of features available on Surface.


Gripe #3 - Why are Bobby's escapes so boring?

Poor Bobby. No matter where he goes, Heaven or Hell, he ends up in a corridor with doors on either side. How much imagination can be sucked out of a script in such a setting? This is the same show that had episodes such as "Dark Side of the Moon" where, with the same budget and same cast, we experienced a Heaven as trippy as a weed induced dream. And let's not forget the brilliant "The Man Who Would be King," in which, through Edlund's magic, we not only got a genuinely inventive history and mythology for the place, but an atmosphere that matched the story he was telling.

What did we get in this episode? A white, featureless corridor. True, the idea of every door having the same name plate was somewhat unique and amusing. But it was still a corridor with a bunch of doors, and people who couldn't wait to get out of their perfect, imaginary lives fashioned by their own wishes. It became harder to watch as we saw that when they did, they found themselves face to face in a bunch of angels who looked more like Heaven's strata council than the Holy Host. Allow me to mourn the Heaven that was ruled by Zachariah, Michael, Raphael, and Joshua, where you would be struck by lightning if they found you trespassing.


Gripe #4 - Where is Rowena's story going?

It wasn’t enough that she ruined Crowley this season, Rowena had to pull Dean into her asinine storyline too. It ended in a great speech about family for sure, but even the speech was wasted when you thought about who and what it was referring to.

Speaking of Dean’s speech, I wonder what it does in an episode that has Dean pretty much ignore his own family due to plot necessities. How can he say family doesn’t end with blood when he never calls Castiel even once, or when he falls so easily for Sam’s ruse about going to a French movie instead of reading him like a book? We’ve seen Dean have a heart to heart with Crowley more than anyone in the family he claims he cares so much about.


But back to Rowena, this episode finally saw her leave Crowley's lair and good riddance for that too since I still can’t tell what her purpose was there to begin with. More importantly, why did Crowley tolerate her presence when all she did was belittle him in front of his staff and whine constantly about everything? Of course, we heard Crowley say he felt for her because she was family, but that's majorly out of character for Crowley. He has always been shown as a man demon who only cared about personal gains and advantages. I’m still struggling to understand where his sudden affection, for a mother who resembled a Disney villain came from.

I have no illusions that this is the last we saw of Rowena, just as I have none about Charlie, Clair, or Cole. Unlike the older seasons, the secondary characters this season are like cold sores, or warts. No matter how you got rid of them they keep coming back. I just hope Rowena's story doesn’t drag beyond this season and into the next. Eventually we need to see her messy, bloody death, preferably before the finale showdown.


Gripe #5 - Where's the heart?

Going back to Dean’s speech about family I realized why I wasn’t being moved by anything this episode, even though it involved characters worrying about and trying to save Dean, which is something I wished for since season 6. It was because Dean himself didn’t seem to care for any of them. In fact Dean doesn’t seem to care about anything other than solving cases these days. He was pestering Sam about it at the beginning and looked quite disappointed when he found out this wasn’t going to be another MotW. I know we're supposed to believe he's suffering from the mark and that is why he’s so blah all the time. But as I said in gripe #1, I don’t see it, and there is no reason the mark should make him forget his attachments to his family in the first place.


Since those early days of season one Supernatural’s biggest charm had been the care its characters showed to each other. It had been its winning ticket for ten years straight, and arguably the main reason viewers came back to watch it again and again. Sadly I’m sensing that the heart of this quality is beginning to fade. Even though characters say they care for each other they are having a hard time showing it.

Another example of this is Castiel. He claims he's worried about Dean. He even risks the wrath of Heaven to help save him. Yet when the mission is over and he drops Sam off he doesn't even come in to say hi to Dean, and to see how he’s doing. It's probably a plot necessity again, part of the silly notion of not telling Dean they are trying to save him, which in turn come from the silly notion of Dean not wanting to be saved. But it makes no sense for Castiel to go along with it when he knows Dean is in trouble. He would never just drop Sam off and go on his merry way to God knows where if he was written in character.

Of course Misha and Jensen aren’t allowed to share any scenes together, either because it makes Destiel grow extra spindly legs, or simply because their schedules don’t match. But that doesn’t make it any less of a plothole .


The only person showing a semblance of affection at this stretch of the road is Sam. His face when he looks at Dean, or thinks about him, is the only thing making me buy into this story arc. Jared still puts his all into every scene and tries to convey things that should be in the script, but aren't, with his face and body language. It’s at least something considering how Jensen looks disinterested most of the time (perhaps because he’s given up on the writing,) and Misha looks lost half the time, seeming to wonder why he is on a show that does nothing with his iconic character other than use him as either filler or plot device.

When a mythology driven, plot-heavy episode ties the lowest ratings for the season and appears to be on a downward trend, it is time to worry about the show. We need to ask ourselves what is the cause of this: the refusal to let beloved characters interact with each other due to the actors' real life schedules, or the refusal to let them show they care for each other due to a grudge against Tumblr. Or is it something deeper and more damaging like lack of creativity, consistency or coherence. I let you be the judge of that and discuss it in the comment section.

Since we're entering a mini hiatus you have two weeks to post whatever you like in the comments . Talk about the show, my gripes, or what you think is dragging this season down (or lifting it up, depending on your opinion.) You could even come up with suggestions on how to kill Rowena to make up for all the grief she's given us this season, so go for it.

Tessa

tessa-marlene.tumblr.com/
twitter.com/tessa_marlene 

162 comments:

  1. I am thoroughly baffled about what is going on with the veil. When Dean got the MOC I thought the writers had closed the veil as a way of getting Sam and/or Dean back when one or the other is killed at the end of the season. Now, it's looking like the only point was to get Kevin to tell the guys his mom was alive. They really should have either had the angels say they are still working on a way to open heaven up to souls fully, or said they had worked it out. I suspect the writers are holding onto the veil being closed in case they need it for a plot point.

    Jared still puts his all into every scene and tries to convey things
    that should be in the script but aren't with his face and body language.
    It’s at least something considering how Jensen looks disinterested most
    of the time he's with either of them (perhaps because he’s given up on
    the writing,) and Misha who looks lost half the time seeming to wonder
    what he does on a show that does nothing with his iconic character other
    than to use him as either filler or plot device.


    The bitter part of me thinks that Jared has had seasons and season to learn how to act when not given dialog or actions that convey what he's going through, while Jensen is still having to navigate how to deal with substandard writing. Misha is another whole thing. It goes back to Destiel, I'm convinced. The writers got themselves into a place where a certain loud and often obnoxious group of fans will not let it go and will not leave it in fandom but get nasty about demanding that it be put on screen. Now, these guys aren't good enough to figure out how to even attempt to stop the runaway train. I'm personally rooting for Cas to have a reason to say that angels are, by nature, asexual and that his intense devotion and attention to Dean has zero to do with sexuality. Heck he can even say that April was an aberration and that he slept with her because he was poor and hungry and wanted a bed for the night and she indicated that she wanted him and he figured that was the price. His later description of her as hot etc. was because he was ashamed of a non-consensual sexual encounter and because he knew how Dean talked about past encounters. Basically, Dean repeatedly saying he's straight is having zero affect on the really rabid shippers who are going with in denial, so let's attack it from the Cas end. Then Cas can go back to being an ANGEL, which is more interesting than when he becomes human and serves to try to deflect from the cries for on screen Destiel. On screen Destiel is not going to happen and they need to make that really, really clear so Cas and Dean can interact. I like Cas and Sam interacting, but other than that I don't care about Cas and other angels, or Cas and Claire.

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  2. Ok, Tessa. I'm not going to post a dissertation this time. I expect you to get flayed for your beginning thoughts, so I want to say I agree with everything in this review. I liked the episode, but the flaws did not escape me. I'm at the point of giving up on trying to figure things out. I don't want to do the writers job anymore by filling in the blanks.


    I have thought since early on in the season that the J2s have placed their priorities elsewhere. They have cut their SPN filming to part time and have upped their con appearances to, on average, two a month. I don't know for sure, but I have seen postings that they get $10,000 per con appearance and $5,000 for photo ops. That's (on average) an extra $30,000 per month added to their salaries. As I see it, they increased their wages and work part time so they can fill get that family time the want.


    As for Dean's disinterest, I think JA is still giving 100% to his performance, but this Dean isn't supposed to care because the Mark is having an effect. No, we have seen no build-up to that, but there you are. We haven't seen a build-up to anything. Things are just dropped into an episode and that's the way it is.


    I wonder how long it will be before the Destiel fans are making something of Dean and Crowley's new found friendship? We will lose that soon, I fear, and it will be back to the claustrophobic Winchesters living in each other's back pockets.


    A long hiatus, two bad episodes during which FAN FAVORITE Charlie was heavily promoted, one good episode, a two-week hiatus, followed by a Charlie episode -- added to the normal drop in March viewing, no story, bad writing, bad plotting, bad pacing, no attention to canon, lack of the ability to write characterization and character motivation; yeah, I think a downward trend is forming. I expect decent viewing for the finale. In all honesty, one could watch the premiere and the finale and the whole Winchester story for the season would be told. The other ones have been pathetically boring and uninteresting.

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  3. Actually, whole season ten we've seen Sam and Dean only for like half of episode, while the rest of the episode focused on supporting cast, guest cast and so on. I've noticed that a lot of times. That's something that is different from previous seasons when Sam and Dean was there all the time. Also, I follow both Jared and Jensen on Twitter and something occurred to me. I think (maybe I'm wrong) that they spend more time in homes than before - they have more time off. We get half of episode with Crowley and rowena, a little with guest stars, and the rest with Winchesters. I'm pretty sure that they didn't want to spend as much time shooting as they were when they didn't have kids. And I really get it. I couldn't want them to do differently. And I know that people may say that well, in that case they should just leave the show, finish it. But for the rest of us it's really ok. Why? Because I don't think that we expect the show to be as great as it was in previous seasons. I guess we realized that it had its time and it ended, actors don't want to give that much time to it. But they still want to do it. And we still want to watch it, we still want to see them every week, we still want to be "in touch" with them. It's just that now it's on different terms. And you can be fine with that or move on.

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  4. I'm personally rooting for Cas to have a reason to say that angels are, by nature, asexual and that his intense devotion and attention to Dean has zero to do with sexuality. God I wished they'd do this. It would have saved all of us so much grief. But as you said, the writers themselves are to blame. Castiel is an angel. All supernatural being on the show are in borrowed bodies so sex is a very questionable act. If they had established them as asexual and not included silly bedroom scenes like the one with April the idea might have slowly sank in for even the most fanatical shippers that nothing in the affection between Dean and Cas is sexual. Instead they show Castiel chase skirt to defuse the effect, not noticing they are in fact fanning the flames. Then they see the results and get scared and decide to separate Dean and Castiel to a point that both of them become cold-hearted bastards.


    Personally I would have just said to hell with the shipping drama and written the story with the way I wanted. I would have made them good friends, implied that Castiel was in love with Dean's soul and saw him as a substitute for God. Dean on the other hand saw him as the manifestations of "family doesn't end with blood." That's how I saw it from the beginning and that's how I would have written it without letting shippers or anti-shippers push me either way. But hey, what do I know? I'm just a fan.

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  5. Huh. My comment was under moderation and never showed up. That's never happened before. Am I not welcome to comment?

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  6. Try it again. Maybe it was a glitch from spoiler TV, or it could be something in the body of the comment like a link or something looking like it. It happens sometimes when the site is trying to block spam.

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  7. Well as one of the people who only sees friendship and brotherly love between Dean and Cas, I'm with you.

    Cas, as a character has other issues to overcome. As an angel on the side of the Winchesters, he's too strong and too much of a Deus ex Machina. As a human they don't seem to be able to do much with him, other than comic relief. They need to find something to do with him that keeps him relevant. The last time they did this we got Crowley's mommy issues, so I'm less than sure that these writers can handle it.

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  8. Yeah, kind of thought the same thing. To make Cas' role defined and relevant on the show they first have to give him an arc. But these days they are too busy giving extra #253 an arc to test run his/her potential for a spin-off so even Sam and Dean get barely screen time.

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  9. I'm not going to post a long dissertation this time, but I will say I agree with everything you point out. I am tired of doing the writers' jobs for them by filling in the blanks and guessing at what is seen is supposed to mean.


    I have thought since early on in the season that the J2s have placed their priorities elsewhere. They have upped their con appearances to, on average, two a month. I don't know for sure, but I have read that they get $10,000 per con appearance and $5,000 for photo ops. That's, on average, $30,000 extra a month. It is my opinion that they have increased their salary and dropped their filming time to part-time to make room for the family time they desire. Unfortunately, the J2s ARE the show, so their lack of screen time bothers me A LOT.


    I do think JA is giving 100% in her performances, but Dean is supposed to be "off" and disinterested because of the MoC. Unfortunately, nothing about the MoC has come through consistently in the season. Instead, things are just dropped into an episode here and there.


    I also think a downward trend is developing, and I won't be surprised if we don't see some .5's between now and the end. In addition to all we have talked about previously in these comments regarding the writing, etc., and the historically lower March viewers, we had two awful episodes, followed by heavy promotions for FAN FAVORITE Charlie, a good episode, now another two week hiatus, followed by the Fan Favorite Charlie episode. Personally, I know I am not excited about any of the episodes coming up between now and the finale.

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  10. Nope, I am getting another 'waiting to be approved' message, and I haven't really said anything that I haven't said before. No links, no actor bashing, none of that stuff.

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  11. Disagreed with almost everything ;) (it was a good episode IMO), but I LOLed at the Windows 8 part; really what's up with their fascination with W8?!


    About Dean and Cas interaction, I'm with you, I honestly can't figure out how that team are thinking. Separating them b/c of the fans is not only ridiculous, but utterly unprofessional. On the other hand there are multiple examples they imply things, like I heard Jared in the latest convention said the parallel between Cas and Colette was intentional, something I didn't notice and don't believe in, yet apparently it was there, I can't blame Destiel fans with such subtext. But I don't understand what's this separation is for then!

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  12. I have mixed feelings. I love this show. But frankly I feel like if the J2 are feeling like it takes too much of their time and they want to focus on their family, then I wish they'd just stop renewing their contracts and let the show end. That or for them to simply cut the show down to 13-15 episodes seasons like cable shows. That way they an have their free time and the characters are actually on the same page, because the actors are.

    It is hurting the story. I am not trying to excuse the writers because many of them are so full of themselves they don't realize the cr*p they are putting out. But also the fat we are getting so many disconnected stories as a result that J2 need to be given time off when Misha is filming or one or the other is filming and the other is getting time off so they get separated for stupid reasons. When they manage to get one of the Js with Misha or Mark, then the other is off.

    I understand they have new families. I get they want to be with their kids and flying from Canada to Texas takes a lot. But it's not like they didn't know this when they recently renewed their contracts. And the fact is that to keep them happy with free time the arc is suffering and the product they are getting out is disjointed. Stories can't meet because half the time all four main actors are nowhere near one another while filming and time has to be wasted in guest stars, etc.

    I want to love this show because it has meant so much to me. But I think they need to rework what they are doing because it's not working. Or as much as I hate to say it. Make s11 the last or work in short seasons by eliminating most MOTW episodes and just focus on the core cast and have them all working in the same story. That way the Js get their free time and we get a close knit arc. With how horrendous the MOTW have been, it won't be a great loss.

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  13. Good post. I would add that it was not necessary for either J to buy a house in Texas when they did. They could have their families with them in Canada, since none of the children are of school age, and they did not have to up their con appearances on weekends.

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  14. What I heard was that the question is Cas an intentional parallel to Collette was asked of Jensen, who didn't respond. Jared said that the writers do many intentional parallels, but didn't specifically say this was one of them. That actually makes sense because I don't get the feeling the writers talk to Jared and Jensen about things like intentional parallels that really have nothing to do with their characters. If Cas is a parallel to Collete it doesn't currently affect how Jared and Jensen portray Sam and Dean.

    As to being unprofessional to not have scenes between Cas and Dean, as I said, they need to address and either completely dismiss Destiel or have Destiel happen for them to get Cas and Dean back in scenes together. Once rabid fans started publicly calling Jensen a homophobe because he says he's always played Dean as straight, or once they run a CW publicist off of Twitter because he says he doesn't think Destiel will happen then the writers have to do something to keep try to dial this back. Frankly the more committed Destielers are finding messages in wallpaper to mean Destiel is real, let alone interpreting every single interaction between Dean and Cas as being on the verge of declaring their undying love and falling into bed. The writers aren't clever enough to figure out how to diffuse this situation so they are going with Plan B, keep Cas and Dean apart so at least they can't be accused of queer baiting. Even then you get people asking if Cas=Collette, and taking any reference, like Jared's non-specific answer as proof of what the writers think. I can only think of a few ways to scotch the whole thing and none of them will satisfy those who insist that Destiel is real. The sad fact is that the rabid Destiel is canon and we must see it on screen (even though it's already canon) fans have pushed the writers to decide that they must not have Dean and Cas interact at all.

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  15. Very good review Tessa... I don't really agree with the point of view, I actually really enjoyed this episode alot. Something about it really felt like the old supernatural. The biggest problem I had wa the Crowley, Rewona storyline. Since Dean was a demon in the premiere I was always under the assumption that the mark of Cain would slowly fracture Deans humanity making him care less and less about his emotional attachments and more about his surivial and need to be a predator. I don't think that the writers are doing the best job conveying it, but in my head I can see the connections where it does work. It seems to me that they are turning Dean slowly into a more psychopathic version of himself, this episode conveyed that to me beautifully. With his actions against the teens without a shred of guilt for playing them, to the lackluster conversation with Crowley about family. To me it didn't feel like bad, or lackluster acting it felt purposfully devoid of emotion for the sake of the character. When I think of what the mark will make Dean do eventually I think it must get him to the point where he won't care that he did it. Psychopathy is a good direction for that leading into demonization.

    The idea of Sam going behind Deans back and teaming with Castiel to break Metatron out of prison struck me as a zany plot. The way it was done in this episode overall was decent. I was happy with the result even though I was stuck wanting some more explanation and some more characters (like ASH!!) i thought it was still pretty hilariously done.

    The line of the Bobby's are unruly or something similar had me chuckling for a while even after the episode. I am disapointed with the misdirection of heaven and the inability for the writers to keep it canon, however I understand that the writers may be confused on Kripke's vision of heaven and changed it up to go with there own. Although by no means was the episode the quality of the old supernatural. This was the first episode in a long time that I thouroughly enjoyed and may even watch again.

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  16. Do you remember that Crowley made a blood call when he was a prisoner in the dungeon? I don't mind in the least that the show uses both technology and magic in the show. That's interesting. To think that Hell's switchboard can capture a blood call from Crowley on Windows 8 is a little too far-fetched, IMO.

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  17. The real irony about Heaven being so different is that Dark Side of the Moon and Inside Man were BOTH written by Andrew Dabb. So it's not Kripke's vision of heaven, it's actually Dabb's.

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  18. Thanks for the read! I've been saying for a while that I think Supernatural should be 12 episodes seasons. That way the boys get their time off (which I completely understand), but we also get a coherent story!

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  19. Criticizing them for reducing their schedules is something I understand. I see no need to criticize the decisions they make about their personal lives. For years they lived in L.A. and made the schedule work. Jensen has lived in Austin longer than Jared, but somehow the writers have always managed to write plenty of scenes for Dean, while writing Sam as scenery for multiple episodes. Secondary characters can be written in interesting ways so that Sam and Dean being less present has been done in the past. Weekend at Bobby's is one example. I'm pretty sure Jared and Jensen signed through season 10 when Carver came on board, but the glaring problem of not seeing Sam and Dean wasn't as apparent until this season (Bitten and Bloodlines excepted). Using Cas poorly, introducing Rowena and not making her a compelling villain, having Crowley have mommy issues make the time without Sam and Dean stand out. With interesting secondary characters and good writing this wouldn't be such an issue.

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  20. I didn't mean the version of heaven written by Kripke, I meant the one from Kripke's seasons. The one that he approved and accepted. It is ironic though that it is the same writer for both. However we don't know how much infuence was thrown about by others on the script and what kind of changes were made based on suggestions by others. I just wish they could get some real consistency within the world of hell and heaven. I mean Crowley originally made hell into a line, whatever happened to that lol

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  21. I couldn't agree more w/you, Annie! This may not be a popular opinion, but SPN is not an ensemble show. It never has been. It works best when the story is focused on J2 and when they are in the majority of the scenes. J2 have never been more absent from the show than this season, and this season is, by far, the WORST season in my opinion. They are literally guest stars - JP even more so than JA - in their own show.

    For me, the show has definitely lost something. It does not excite me anymore. It feels like it is just trudging along until the end. I think shows should go out w/a bang, not a whimper. Sadly, SPN seems to be going the "whimper" way to its end!

    As you said, I feel J2 need to re-commit to the show or the episodes should be reduced to 12-13 or they should make next season the last. Something needs to change . . . . for me. I don't think the show is working though I understand others may be enjoying it. It's just not as good as it used to be IMO, which is sad.

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  22. I assure you I wasn't wandering in a gossip group :) , I read con tweets from reliable unbiased sources. What you said could be true (if you've seen the video) but from your own explanation I think he implied it could be intentional, where I haven't seen a parallel, intentional or unintentional! I think this queer baiting exists and it's such a talk-about subject that the writers openly speak about it among themselves and to the cast. They do everything to keep fans invested, dropping hints here for some and showing sth else for others.


    While I agree with you about persisting fans, I think you're making them like they're a terrorist group or sth! Yes, fan fights could turn dangerous, there are lots of extremist anti-Destiel fans too, bulling and threats is a common occurrence (sth that makes me laugh at the SPNFamily these people call themselves) but they're all at the background. A show is being made here, sth that remains for years and presented to viewers who know nothing of the background battle, they should act professional and try to make a worthy show, that way they wouldn't have to worry about fan rage and rating b/c most people recognize the quality.

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  23. Great review! I couldn't agree more w/your gripes. I know many loved this episode, but I wasn't as moved by it as others. Like you, I was also uninspired. Was it an improvement over the previous week's episode? Sure, but that's not saying much, IMO. The episode still had major problems, IMO.



    I couldn't agree more w/you about Dean, his suffering, and the MOC. I know I'm supposed to be worried about the Mark and its effect on Dean, but I'm just not. I have yet to see the negative effect this Mark has on Dean. Apart from him becoming a demon if he were to be killed, what is the big deal about the MOC? Can someone please explain to me why I should care about this Mark? What is it even doing to Dean? Were those flashes supposed to reflect a desire to kill? Was the nightmare supposed to mean something? Is his desire to keep hunting supposed to mean something to me? I feel like we are spinning our wheels w/this story, and I'm waiting for the story to start. It hasn't started IMO so all of Sam's worry and Cas's angst doesn't do anything for me.



    I also really agree w/you about Rowena. What is the point of her story, and why should I care? I don't care about her coven or her vendetta against the MOL or even her desire to kill Sam and Dean. I just don't care. She hasn't been presented as a true villain or anyone I should care about. Her arc w/Crowley was horribly boring and uninteresting. Other than giving J2 time off, I saw no point to any of the Crowley/Rowena scenes. I also find it sad and pathetic that it took Dean's words of encouragement to motivate Crowley to toss out his mum. Really?!?!! He couldn't have cared less about his son but has a sore spot for a mother who lost or sold him or whatever she said!?!?! Okay!


    I also think you're completely right about the show having no heart anymore. There's just something missing from the show. There seems to be a genuine lack of interest of everyone's parts - the writers, the actors, etc. There's no classic rock anymore. There are no fun/cute broments. There's no good MOTW episodes. Remember when you loved the one off characters like Sarge or that girl from the Bloody Mary episode? Now, we get people like Cole's buddy or that nun. Who cares about them?



    The show is, IMO, in desperate need of a showrunner who knows the show and actually cares about the show and the characters. That's not Carver.

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  24. I disagree about the queer baiting. All the examples I've ever read have been reaching IMO and bordering on absurd. For example, someone once mentioned a scene of Dean standing in front of or around a closet and mentioning Castiel or something equally weird as an instance of "clear queer baiting." So, as I see it, if someone wants to read more into a Cas/Dean scene then they will do that no matter what is actually shown on screen.

    I do think the writers (and JA) got tired of being accused of being homophobic and of queer baiting so they decided to stop having JA and MC interact completely. Jensen even remarked that the accusations and the hysteria over "Destiel" had gotten out of control so he was happy the writers had written fewer scenes btw the two. I'm sure he was sick and tired of being asked about Destiel and when giving his honest opinion on it (i.e., debunking Destiel and saying that Dean and Cas are only friends) being criticized for and harassed for it.

    IMO, since some of those fans seemed to read a lot out of nothing, it is probably best for the show to not have Dean and Castiel interact as much as they used to. I honestly think JA had grown very tired of the whole Destiel thing, and I can't say I blame him.

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  25. Pretty sure it's closer to six-figures for Con appearances, actually.

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  26. No, they aren't a terrorist group. However, they have made it uncomfortable for the actors, writers and public relations staff of Supernatural. Why should they deal with being called homophobes? They are paid to write, not be insulted and harassed. They took the easy way out. Maybe it would be nice if they had taken a harder way out, but I don't see anything they can do NOW to stop the insistence that Destiel be on screen. They probably shouldn't have played to the trope, but they did it for years with Wincest and pretty much nobody ever expected anything more than a few nods and winks. Now the writers have to deal with the mistakes that were previously made and their decision is to drop Dean and Cas interaction. Maybe they are hoping it will die down and they can have Dean and Cas interact again. Maybe they have written it off as something they just don't want to deal with.

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  27. My guess is that Gen and Daneel want the kids growing up near their grandparents. But even then not going to feel too bad. Both of them worked in the industry and they knew its a job that takes a lot of time. They’re both leads in a show they can’t just film in a couple of weeks and then wrap up and go home.

    And yeah it sucks sometimes. But it’s not like they can’t just fly to Canada and spend days there. As you said the kids aren’t in school and I doubt either of them have full schedules that they have to work and can’t ask for time off. It’s not like they started a family and then their husbands got a job as leads that took more time from their daily lives. Since they all had been working on Supernatural for years and knew how heavy their schedules were going to be

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  28. This is exactly what I call unprofessional. At first let me tell you I don't see anything remotely romantic between these two and I wasn't aware there was a shipping fan group for them before I got active in the internet fandom, so I agree people see what they want even if there's nothing, but I say these writers are actually benefiting from them and that's wrong. They're sacrificing the quality over baiting some fans for the rating. That example I mentioned was one of them. If they're really tired of it, they should come clean and show it not saying 'you have your version and I have my version' in Fan Fiction.

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  29. Thanks for another great review. I have to disagree with over half of this one. Everything that you disliked, I liked. I wonder at any point if the fans become discontent with the show because of the writing, the acting or if they've simply fallen out of love with it. Any scenario is legit. It just seems people see more that they dislike, than they like lately.


    Gripe 1- I'm ok without seeing Emo Dean. I don't need to see his single man tear and heartbreak every episode to know he has a problem. He's doing what he always does. Keeps things to himself and keeps on going. It doesn't bother me. Seeing his nightmares and facing himself in the mirror is enough for me to know they haven't forgotten there is a problem, even though they don't beat it to death.
    Gripe 2 - I agree with this but then, I've never liked Supernatural's version of Heaven. It's all too clinical for me. This is a paranormal show. I'd like to see a Heaven that reflects that. Not long white corridors, motel room doors, glass offices. I'd like to see their idea of the veil, Hell and Heaven. I loved the look of Purgatory. It suited the tone of the show. I wish the others did too. Dark Side of the Moon is the closest I've come to loving anything to do with Heaven.
    Gripe 3-I agree with this one too. For the same reasons as Gripe 2. It's too clinical and dull. Though I am really glad they didn't just say to hell with it and have Bobby back on Earth helping Cas and Sam.
    Gripe 4- I don't care about Rowena and I'm glad she was kicking the sidewalk but I have a feeling she's going to have the answer to the MOC. After the first time she emasculated Crowley, I was done with her. Waste of screen time.
    Gripe 5- I'm ok with Dean not calling Cas. He's a man. Most men don't pick up the phone for long heart to hearts. I don't need to see them calling each other to know they're friends. I prefer Cas/Sam scenes to Cas/Dean scenes. I thought the Dean/Crowley scenes and Bobby's letter showed a lot of heart and I loved both of those moments. San showed a lot of heart in this episode too. Especially during the seance, for me.
    I don't pay attention to the off screen BS about Misha/Jensen or the ship wars because they detract my attention from the show. I like to enjoy it without the unnecessary drama.


    SN- I still hate Jeremy Carver with the heat of a thousand suns. Robbie Thompson, Adam Glass and Jenny Klein are on my crap list too.

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  30. I think I made it quite clear that the decisions they made for the personal lives is why I think they reduced their filming work to part-time. It sure did not stop them from increasing, by quite a bit, their weekend con appearances.


    And, no JA had a house in Malibu before buying one in Austin and selling the Malibu one, but as far as I am concerned, I don't care where they live, how they live, or what they do in their personal lives. I am invested in Sam and Dean, not Jared and Jensen. I watch the show to see two TV characters in a show, and I feel like I am getting a whole hell of a lot of other characters and very little of those two this year. It started last year, but this year it is more noticeable.


    It is not a matter of compelling characters, because there are no compelling characters around to carry episodes (like Bobby and Rufus -- oh, how I miss Rufus), and I really don't buy into the idea that the writers don't like one or the other of the characters or that one or the other is purposely not written for. The whole point is that the Js signed the damned contracts knowing the show is about the Winchesters, that they are the show, that they were facing long commutes, and they are now only working part-time for the show while increasing their workload at cons.

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  31. I understand what you mean, but I say in professional world there's sth called ignoring. Lots of fans here in this site are complaining about different things, and many of the complains are valid too. We've called Carver and the writers names and insulted them, but they don't care, they just do what they do, so why they can't do their job, what they're paid for and make a high quality show?! That's why I don't buy their reasoning. They keep them separated for episodes and then make such a big reunion that inevitably explode the Destiel fandom, where they could easily make them interact casually. But no, they want to bait and satisfy everyone. These are the writers who wanted to fill Cas' heaven with Dean's pics in 9.22 and thankfully the cast changed it.

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  32. Regarding the Hannah/Heaven storyline, aside from the Heaven hallway and things like the autistic man's version of Heaven being a quiet meadow, I don't get why the angels are making such a big deal of 'protecting' Metatron. All of them were for killing Cas when they thought it was he who caused them to be cast out of Heaven and to lose their wings. Now the goal is to protect the real perpetrator? Why?

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  33. That is a good point, I am also confused as to why they would bother keeping him prisoner. It doesn't seem to be too far out of their wheel house to kill him outright or banish him to some other realm. Look at the magic that Balthazar was able to do in the french mistake, not too farfetched that the other angels could trap him in purgatory or some other dimension. Why keep him in a very unsecured "heaven prison cell." I also do not understand why Castiel is not allowed in heaven??

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  34. I have to agree with you. I follow the guys on Twitter and Facebook, but I rarely pay attention to any of those sites. Whatever little I know about their personal lives has been because someone posted something on IMDb or scrolling through Tumblr I read it. I don't particular follow gossip on celebrities, care even less for their personal lives. I'm not paying to see them at cons either.


    But I am a viewer, I have put money into buying the seasons. My interests are on the show and as a viewer and a consumer, I expect to be given a good product and when I tune in I expect to see Sam AND Dean, not Charlie or Krissy or Rowena or that teen werewolf taking the show for their own personal rides, guest starting the Js for ten minutes of screentime.


    And if wanting more free personal time is getting in the way of them putting a good product out there, then maybe it time they as professionals to start rethinking their professions. Like I said, I get that maybe they are at a point in their lives where their lives they might want to focus on their families. But you know what, so are a lot of people out there. Maybe they should drop down con appearances and spend those weekends with their families.


    This is not a new gig for them. They knew signing their contracts the work that would come from it. they are leads in a 23 episode show. They are still making the same amount of money whenever they show up for 45 minutes or three. And unfortunately, it is starting to show in the product they are putting out.


    Like I said, there are many ways the show could fix this behind the scenes. Shorter seasons, less convention appearances, etc.

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  35. I understand your point and agree that the writers could have ignored the fans and continued the write the show the way they wanted.That would have been best for those of us that enjoyed the Dean/Cas friendship and Cas's contributions to TFW.



    However, I do think some in the Destiel fandom were a bit hard to ignore. The constant questions at conventions and on Twitter were too much IMO, and as the accusations of queer baiting and homophobia grew louder, the writers decided to stop writing for Dean/Castiel. I can understand why.

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  36. I've recently binge watched supernatural on netflix and I loved watching this show but now I am so bored. I really want the show to end and hope the writers have a goof ending in mind that could be as good as the season 5 finale.

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  37. It's because Cas does not WANT to return to Heaven. He is the only 'rogue' angel who was not hunted down and killed if he did not willingly return. That Hannah story again -- ugh. Then he went off to play step-daddy, and now he's on another pointless road trip, this time with Metatron. Now we are all excitedly awaiting the return of...Claire. And this is what we gave up the Dean/Cas profound friendship for.

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  38. The problem with that is the goal is more episodes for syndication, so reducing the episode schedule would hurt the money WB gets for syndication and it would force them to write mytharc episodes, when the goal for syndication is more stand-alones so they don't have to air the episodes in order. They will never drop to a half schedule for those reasons.

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  39. I'm glad your post came through Ginger since you totally understood my point of view. It's not that the episode itself was bad. It was actually better than the last two. I'm just tired of yearning to see my boys on screen interact with each other. I miss the good old days of Sam and Dean banter when their dialogue wasn't limited to Charlie or the case at hand or let's find a cure for the mark/no I don't want to.

    Dean, Sam and Castiel lit up the screen when they worked together. This 'hiding things from Dean' excuse to mask the fact that its the limited filming schedule that prevents them to appear together on screen is really getting to me. Far be it from me to begrudge the Js for trying to earn more money, but like I said in the review, I just thought they loved the show more.

    Ugh, Charlie. I'm getting a sick feeling in she's slowly being navigated toward becoming main cast. Next episode she might have more screen time than the holy trinity combined. I wished they contained her in her own one-off episodes and spared us having to watch her embarrass Sam (and Cas) by coming up with the solution to Dean's dilema all by herself.

    And ditto to everything you said about why ratings are slipping down.

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  40. Geeze Tessa... I keep having to agree with you! lol I found the last three episodes really boring. This one was at least a little better then the two before it but the show has honestly become boring which is a real shame. I don't understand why this is the case. The MOTW episodes have become the highlight of the show because the main mythology has become a real drag.


    Rowena is the most annoying character I've seen on a show in a long time and her plot is very boring.


    Castiel and Crowley went from being some of the best characters on the show to some of the most boring characters that keep running in circles plot wise for several seasons now.


    OK the truth is it's the same thing every season since Jeremy Carver took over. I don't expect that anything will change. At least until him and maybe a few others go. The shows ratings are dropping pretty low too though to be fair, most of tv is doing the same across the board.

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  41. I don't think them reducing episodes this late in the game will hurt their syndication that much. Fellow genre show in syndication Charmed only had 178 episodes.

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  42. I laughed at that scene! It was so stupid, it was funny! I face palmed shouting "WTF???" Remember when Blood calls were pretty damn dark??? When Meg used it in earlier seasons it was scary as shit! They then became less dark and more comical after season 6! Then in Season 9, it just became a parody of itself!

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  43. It makes Dean more violent and reckless and less empathetic all of which was shown.It was shown but not consistently. For example, this episode he let Rowena go in order to save the college kids. Had he been reckless he would have broken her neck and said damned with the kids.Hannah said in her first episode in season 10 that a council of angels was running things in heaven.Which council of angels? Why don't we ever see them? This episode it sure looked like she was running the place. Is she member of the said council or an employee of it? Why was Castiel in a semi-authoritative position at the beginning of the season but not accepted in heaven now? Why are souls treated as prisoners in Heaven, a place were righteous people go to get rewarded? Maybe I'm the only one with these questions but I highly doubt all of them have been answered on the show.

    And Crowley running Hell from a castle on earth is even sillier than those scenes being in Hell. Where is this castle on earth? Near Hogwarts?

    And my issue with Bobby still goes back to the fact that this is still Heaven and is supposed to be the pleasure side of afterlife. True there's always been something sinister about it in Supernatural but never so on the surface that the human souls would be flat out barred from leaving. Maybe I watched too much Walking Dead but I was thinking something akin to the Atlanta hospital on that show when they pretend they have your comfort in mind but secretly hold you hostage.As Dean said, it was probably the demon blood Sam pumped into him.As I said to another poster on another forum, the human blood has made him human, but there's no reason it should make him naive. Rowena didn't sound like a good mother a son would have any nostalgia for. Crowley doesn't have to be a demon to not want to be with her, yet all of a sudden, he went from holding her in chains to doing everything she asks.The mark is all about turning Dean into a demonic killing machine and since familial attachments are a big part of what keeps him human (as has been pointed out time and again), making him lose those would be an important part of it.All good and right until he gives that speech to Crowley and completely contradicts himself. If they wanted to show the Mark freeing Dean from his familial attachments, in his speech to Crowley he should have told him family is worthless and he should rid himself of it. The story would have led to the same conclusion but now we would have concrete evidence of the effect of the Mark on Dean with regards to his feelings for his family and why he seems cold toward them.

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  44. Boy that's for sure! They had two well liked characters as regulars and they proceeded to put them in boring stories. Don't get me wrong. I think there could be an interesting story in Crowley fighting with being partly human. His relationship with his mother didn't do it for me. Cas is harder for me to say that about, since I think the last time he was used well was season six when he was a bad*** angel fighting the war in heaven. I wish they had stuck with Godstiel instead of the Leviathans, but I'm not sure how many legs that story actually had long term. Now, they've done Cas loses his powers, Cas regains his powers, lather rinse repeat ad infinitum. They finally ended the seemingly endless angel politics story only to look like they are moving toward a Cas/Claire story. I don't know what they do with him.

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  45. Disagreed with almost everythingRead my response to Martin Anders. Perhaps my views on some of the things you disagree with become clearer.I heard Jared in the latest convention said the parallel between Cas and Colette was intentional,Really? If this is legit it really surprises me because for the life of me I can't see the point of that. It actually feeds into the shippers claim that they bait them but don't deliver. If Dean and Castiel aren't supposed to be romantically involved why make such a parallel?

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  46. I do put this solely on the writers. As you note, last year Jensen was complaining publicly about the discrepancy between his schedule and Sam's. Sam was virtually missing from the mid-season finale. The lack of screen time isn't the only issue, though. Sam didn't have a lot of screentime in this episode but for once it counted. If the writers are constrained by time limits, then they need to use the time they have effectively, not writing Sam as useless.

    Jared and Jensen both talk about the loyalty they feel toward the show. When they are given the material (and even when they are not given the material) they usually give their all to their performances. I actually don't have an issue making this an ensemble show, IF the writers can tie everything together and make the stories and the characters, both new and old, interesting and compelling.

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  47. Talk about an extreme case of product placement. If they used a state of the art, custom made computer that looked all sorts of weird and funky I would've loved the mix of magic and technology. But a Microsoft Surface? Give me a break.

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  48. Don't feel bad about not liking Cas' story since season 6 because I'm right there with you and I'm one of his biggest fans. They should have gone ahead with Godstiel but they were either worried his fans would revolt or they hated him so much they wanted to off him, which didn't explain why they brought him back. Since then his presence has had no purpose on the show. A few times I thought it did, like when he went to Purgatory with Dean or when he was controlled by Naomi to spy on the Winchesters. But ultimately none of those storylines went anywhere.

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  49. I wish they'd just stop renewing their contracts and let the show end. That or for them to simply cut the show down to 13-15 episodes seasons like cable shows.As much as I agree there are more factors at play than just what's best for the quality of the show. 13-15 episode shows are generally tighter written and hence stronger in content. Yet the CW is a weak networkalready struggling to fill its prime time hours. It has a few decently rated shows like the Flash, Arrow and SPN, but also a lot of struggling shows with ratings that would have the show cancelled on any other channel. Turning Supernatural into a half season show would mean they have to fill the rest of the season with a new show and currently they don't have anything that would even remotely rate as high as SPN.

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  50. Tessa, what about Balthazar and Gabriel? If we are going to go with asexual angels, well, THOSE two angels were portrayed as being PRIAPIC (looked THAT word up) where the ladies were concerned.

    Of course, sexuality could be individual in each and every angel (I mean Raphael was portrayed as male AND female and seemed equally in power and equally removed) so Castiel could love Dean the way he loved God -- totally but not romantically.

    Boy I liked the episode a LOT more than you did, but agree that this episode did feel like 3 or 4 interwoven stories.

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  51. I do recognize that Godstiel had the same problem as Cas, he was TOO strong an antagonist. How can Sam and Dean defeat an all powerful God? It could run a couple of episodes, maybe even half a season, but a full season would have been hard to sustain.

    I do think Sera Gamble decided that she had no place to go with Castiel and she did intend him to be killed off permanently. Then, when she wasn't coming back as show runner, Singer decided that Cas was a big draw and brought him back. To do so he had to give Sam's story of fighting Lucifer in his mind to Cas and once Cas came back relatively sane, there wasn't anywhere to go with him. Basically, I think SG's instincts on Cas were right, that simply because of who he was there was no good way to integrate him into the story. If she hadn't killed off Bobby and had kept Frank they could have established a new kind of hunting system. One that was based more on technology and utilized Frank's paranoia and computer skills. But SG left and all the hope I had that Carver would do a good job was crushed.

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  52. With his actions against the teens without a shred of guilt for playing them, to the lackluster conversation with Crowley about family.Wow, a completely different observation than what I did. I thought the fact that the spared Rowena - a potential lose canon and danger to humans - to save the college students' lives and the speech he gave to Crowley about the true meaning of family completely undermined the notion that the Mark was turning him into a psychopath with no remorse or feelings. This is why I am pissed off with the writing of MoC Dean. The writers are trying to make him into something less sympathetic but they don't seem all in and keep contradicting themselves.

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  53. BML, I have been very curious about the Con appearances. First off, Jensen and Jared seem to appear together which may given them (together) three times what one appearing as a solo might.

    Ginger gave the same numbers I have heard in the past: can you say where you heard THIS amount?

    I was wondering how many conventions they attend, do you think Ginger is right, two a month which turns out to be TWENTY-FOUR a year? I generally find out about these things after the fact.

    I also think that because this is OUR show we aren't paying attention to the fact that ALL the CW shows go into a ratings nosedive. I find it somewhat heartening that BEFORE the hiatus and the move (which is still screwing with my week) Supernatural would get .9 or so but then after seven days would hit 1.4 because it is one of the most "rewatched" shows.

    Anyway, I would like to hear the source of your surmise. Because WHOA that is a bundle of shekels.

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  54. Things aren't exactly looking good for the CW in general. Their second highest rated show brought in an .8 this week, followed by iZombie with a .7 and Supernatural with a .6. From what I'm hearing by next year the CW is probably going to have to make some big changes to stay afloat.


    Their Friday shows are horrible as so are their Monday shows. I don't think having failing shows have full seasons to have something to air is helping them either. And they pretty much sacrificed The Messengers to a quick death before it even aired.


    While on the other hand cable shows with shorter seasons and less shows are surviving. The model networks are still using has become outdated. It won't surprise me if having 10-13 episodes seasons will become the norm in the next couple of years.

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  55. You mention some good points, that's why I said that there are ways they could be fixing this behind the scenes. Instead of trying to force something that is simply not working. I think the start should come from better communication. Better communication between Carver and the rest of the writers, the writers with one another and Carver and the actors.

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  56. I agree that they are not handling as best as they can. However the way I interperated it, it was kind of a gradual change, the fact that he spared Rewona and the kids I don't think he did it because of guilt or to be a hero, I think he did it because he knows that was what he was supposed to do. Old habits type thing. The conversation with Crowley had a weird vibe to it with Dean not really looking like he felt anything of what he was saying. Just saying it, maybe even just trying to manipulate Crowley altogether. Either way we can both agree that the writers need to start handling the content much better.

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  57. Jared said nothing of the kind. What he said in response to the Collette parallel question was that the writers often put the brothers in the same situations to show their different reactions. He ignored the whole Collette parallel thing and JA wouldn't even answer -- he wasn't going to go there. I specifically watched that portion of the YouTube question and answer. That was a very nice way of covering up the repeated poached stories.

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  58. Yeah the Crowley/Rowena story is a REAL snoozer.

    And I LIKED Hanna showing up in that angel-at-the-gate dude vessel. They appeared more "friended" to me.

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  59. I loved Crazy Caz, because for me it was the perfect answer to the problem of "deus ex machina Castiel" just make him STRONG, but make him not want to do anything. I follow the bees. The greyhounds are frustrated. Etc. Etc. And he was very entertaining to me.
    He wasn't really a "big bad" for me in Season 6, he was somebody who, using free will, came to a different conclusion than Sam and Dean. I felt his love for Sam and Dean so strongly in season 6.

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  60. I agree, I did not like the way Frank disappeared. Not even a death scene or a hint of "something" about to happen.

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  61. I didn't call him the big bad. I was trying to substitute a possibly unacceptable word I meant bada** (last 2 letters are ss), not big bad. He turned big bad, when he broke Sam's wall instead of teleporting Sam and Dean to China so they couldn't stop him. Or possibly when he killed Balthazar, killed a virgin for her blood and tortured Doctor Visniak. But mostly when he harmed Sam for convenience instead of getting Sam and Dean out of the way without harming them.

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  62. I didn't think it was a blood call, I thought Rowena was trying to get the location of the PHONE call Dean made in The Executioner's Song.

    And it was in the Charlie/Dhin episode that we learned that nobody could pinpoint the LOL because of the magic that protected it.

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  63. That's interesting: there was an article on Salon.com a few weeks ago which stated they made a HIGHLY lucrative deal with Netflix and it was keeping the network financially secure (at least for the time being). But I do agree that the WHOLE network has crap ratings in the spring. Why?

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  64. I disagree that there's no way to integrate Cas in the story, it just takes better writing chops. They came up with a good solution this season with him losing his grace and they could have done it back then. Just say because of the time he spent on earth, or the animosity he showed toward his superiors in Heaven, or heck even the fact that he was pulverized a few times by Lucifer his grace was weakened and couldn't perform any miracles.


    SG's instincts might have been right, but the execution of Cas' death was poor. If she really wanted to give him a swan song she should have done it like Bobby, or at the very least like Gabriel. Even if he were not a fan favorite his character deserved better than a two minute dunk in a poluted lake. It was so vague and confusing I didn't even suspect that was the end and always anticipated he'd be back.


    As for them giving Sam's Lucifer story to Cas, they pretty much killed it that way. I recall what he said was that Lucifer was in his head for a while and then he went away. Must have been another storyline they didn't know how to end so they just sort of let it hang loose and flit away.

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  65. Taking the kids' money was one thing, but callously goading him into betting his dad's watch - especially given how Dean feels about his own Dad - seemed a bit OOC for him.

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  66. Yeah I had no problem with him hustling them, just that he didn't do anything more severe that made me think it was the Mark acting up.

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  67. Oh I liked Dean rubbing his armpit onto Sam's toothbrush. THAT to me was classic prank war. Can you imagine putting that toothbrush in your mouth? ICK.

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  68. Their deal with Tribune is due for renewal next year and the last article I read wasn't looking good for them. The Flash was a success since then, but their other shows are failing, even Arrow. The head of Tribune apparently wants more creative power over their shows (less shows aimed at teenagers that aren't even watching according to him).


    Maybe the CW can take a page from El Rey Network, they made a great deal with Netflix for their original program, From Dusk Till Dawn. Although with Netflix having a Marvel owned original series airing and others on the way, I'm not sure if they would want to have Arrow and the Flash from DC like that.

    Network shows in general are doing horrible. It's just worse for the CW because their ratings aren't that great to begin with. That's why I said in the next years Networks in general will be forced to male changes to stay on top. And that will probably mean taking a format closer to cable shows or Netflix.

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  69. "I'm told you run Hell's switchboard."
    "Well, last year, my son, Crowley, was taken by the Winchesters. I need to know where they were holding him and I'm told he made a call. I was hoping you could trace it for me."


    Pretty sure Rowena was talking about the blood call.

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  70. I've always thought that making Cas the possessed leader of Leviathans (with all his angelic powers), instead of the bland villain Dick Roman would've made for a much more interesting season 7. MC could've played the laughing mad Leviathan (Cas was gone for most of the season, anyway), they could've skipped killing Bobby to give the boys a personal vendetta, Sam's quick fix wouldn't have been possible and it'd have tied up neatly with both Dean and Cas ending up in purgatory at the end. Such a missed opportunity.

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  71. I've heard mixed things on Tribune. Originally they were making a great deal of noise about wanting more control over programming. Then they backed off. Until the deal is actually done, we won't know anything. The interesting thing is that while the CW has never done well, they haven't fallen as much as some of the other networks. CW programs have equaled or beaten some network shows, head to head. They are mostly Fox shows, but NBC has had a few that got beaten by the CW as well. So by holding more or less steady, the CW started to look good by comparison. DST took a big hit out of the CW ratings however, but in the fall things were not as dire. There is a chance if Tribune can get a show or two of its own on the CW and join the get shows to syndication and make money, that will solve the problem. If that doesn't happen I still expect the CW or at least Warner Brothers to make a run at a cable network. The revenues from Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, ITunes, syndication and international licensing are fairly good. The CW was set up to get shows to syndication where the real money is. So far it's working and Supernatural is its biggest hit.

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  72. Thank you. I didn't get that. I've watched the episode twice but I have a little bit of a difficult time with her accent. My husband and I have been talking about getting closed captioning just because we spend all our tv-watching time turning the sound UP and DOWN.

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  73. The whole Gabriel trying to seduce Kali, who happened to be his ex and then making out with her felt about as carnal as it gets on CW.

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  74. Yeah, the numbers I remember were between $150,000-$700,000 per episode depending on age and popularity. Supernatural was in the $700,000 category, so it is making big bucks for Warner Brothers. Plus, I think the budget for SPN is between $2 million and $2.5 million, so a guaranteed $700,000 per episode offsets 1/3 of the cost of production right there. Hulu and Amazon are paying something for the current episodes and TNT is showing Supernatural all the time. There is a chance that these revenue streams alone come pretty close to cover all the costs of the show, leaving international sales, DVD sales, Itunes downloads as pretty much pure profit.

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  75. I've been figuring Crowley has been basing his operations in an old mental asylum. It definitely has that sort of feel to it.

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  76. Percy, happy Easter. Thank you for protecting my delicate eyes with the double asterisks.

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  77. I feel that Jared's response has been misconstrued. I mean, he didn't remember what the episodes title was, so I'm gonna expect him to remember a character from a season ago that he had zero interactions with. Like you said he was talking in generalities, that the writers throw out parallels all the time, he goes to Sam and Dean specifically in his answer.

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  78. That would have been fantastic. They would have had the same problem they have with Dean, the writers aren't willing to have Cas be held responsible for doing bad things, so he gets excused, forgiven immediately, or they simply don't do things bad enough to get criticized. That is one reason I think the demon Dean story went off the rails. No one wanted Dean to do anything really demony. Frankly, Crowley's minions aren't exactly evil anymore. They are suddenly bureaucrats not instruments of destruction the way Meg, Azazel and Ruby were. Only Sam gets the bad edit and that's mostly because he's shown hurting Dean's feelings and being warned by Bobby that even though he's a good man, he really needs to check with Dean before he makes any decision.

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  79. Frank was great. I miss Frank. It could have opened tons of conspiracy storylines, X filsey stuff, bring back the hunted-by-FBI parts, etc.... he was very much a "Lone Gunman" types.

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  80. Less your delicate eyes, more trying to avoid having my comment in moderation or thrown out because I used a word or combination of letters that automatically gets the response thrown out. Years ago I discovered I had to spell out the episode After School Special because using the acronym of the first letter of every word got the comment junked.

    I just did a post about the money being made on Netflix and was politely informed it was in moderation because I used certain symbols (an S with a vertical line through it) and they think it's spam.

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  81. They can't make them interact casually is the thing, that's how all this shit started. Dean and Cas standing in the same room in dramatic scene is queer baiting. That was going on from basically the beginning. I mean there are people suggesting that a nightstand in Dean's room = Destiel. It's ridiculous.


    And some of the writers have even told the Destielers that it's fine if they have their own interpretation, but they as the writers have their own. But they shippers basically act like entitled brats.

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  82. What's funny about that, is that if you pause the screen and look at the tablet the program the demon is using is a cracked version. Straight up stealing their own technology.

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  83. I agree. Sera's instincts were right. As we've seen, there is really no place to go w/Castiel. I really like Castiel but he hasn't had a purpose since S6. That was the only season since S4 where I found he was used appropriately. I also agree about "Godstiel" being much better than Dick Roman, but that story was cut before it even started. Castiel should have remained dead. He served very little purpose after S6. Or he could have been restored to Heaven and returned from time to time to help out but none of that angel civil war crap or the repetitive stories around Cas's grace.

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  84. I was like Tessa. I couldn't figure out why, if it was so terrible, Dean didn't wake up. This is a guy that can 'spider sense' something in the room and goes for the gun under his pillow.

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  85. Eh, I preferred the Cas-less season. And I thought Dick Roman was a fun villain.

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  86. I thought it was just me. My screen was esp. dark but I didn't see his arm glowing or anything. I thought it would have though.

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  87. Actually, that would've worked because it wouldn't be Cas doing the bad things, but his vessel possessed by Levi!Boss. It would've made an interesting twist - as demons and angels possess bodies while suppressing the human souls inside, Leviathans can possess bodies and suppress the angel in it. That would've made them a lot more threatening than being shark-mouthed shapeshifters. It'd also have presented the Winchesters with the dilemma of whether to try and save Cas despite what he'd done last season or sacrifice him along with the Leviathans. Kind of similar to the whole Lucifer thing - but since MC was absent for most of the season, he could've embraced the mass murderer role the way JP as Lucifer never got to.



    As for the rest - my major complaint against the writers is that they are too afraid to shake things up. They come up with some truly brilliant twists and then they go on to undo it as quickly as possible to restore the status quo.

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  88. Considering Sam and Dean's reaction to Gabriel's Casa Erotica DVD, I'd say he engaged in sex.

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  89. The minute it's announced she is a regular, is the minute I burn all my DVDs and walk away from the show.


    LOL :-)

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  90. The mark only glows when it is in contact with the First Blade.

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  91. I don't agree with you about the characters (I liked Cole, to me, HOW people get into Hunting was a good exploration; I like Sheriff Donna BUNCHES, a regular person -- like ME -- facing something scary with courage) because I need other flavors in the show. I was talking to my husband about this, and to me, in the beginning Dean and Sam were NOT crazily codependent. But as they show has killed off practically every other character their relationship has gotten more and more constricted. So they both "need" to have each other around, to be sure the other is "safe" but they also resent the HELL out of the fact their life has turned out like this.

    Part of me feels that (based upon Dean's conversation with the bartender this episode) he is very confused why he hasn't died. He may resent Sam for being a reason he needs to stay alive. (By that I mean DIED and TOOK. And he worries about Sam so much he fights death to the limit.)

    I do very much agree with you that Rufus was a character that SHOULD have been kept around. I would've liked Bobby and Rufus as auxiliary hunters.

    One show I always admired was Xena, because there were whole SWATHES of episodes based on The King of Thieves or Joxer that were entertaining and interesting that neither Xena nor Gabrielle showed up in. THAT show knew how to create auxiliary characters I cared about.

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  92. Yeah, but the girl in the video was another one of his constructs, like the two chicks in the Tall Tales episodes. Not really "real."

    Listen, I totally believed that Balthazar really stole the weapons of Heaven; I also think that Castiel prevailed upon him to join up with him AFTER the Staff of Moses episode. But, I agree, we never actually saw him with the "soprano" or the eight women he was supposedly having a menage with. So while I found Balthazar a reasonable approximation of a profligate, he may only have been simulating it for reasons unknown to us.

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  93. We've seen it glow at different times without the Blade, I thought. Maybe I'm wrong. I just thought we have seen it glow at various times throughout the season, but if the Blade was always there...I can't remember any specifics now.

    I just thought they were supposed to put the glowy thing there, just because of the way Jensen had his arm out straight and the Mark itself totally visible in the scene.

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  94. Whathisname the writer should just don drag and be the Charlie of his dreams.

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  95. But Crowley is running Hell like the MVD. He was the guy who ran "sales" and really not into Teh EVOL for EVOL's sake.

    He wanted to be king of hell, I never understood his hard-on for Purgatory. Never.

    Now he HAS to stay King of Hell or he is dead. So his motivations are clear to me.

    And whoever said above that NOBODY likes to be in Hell makes perfect sense why Crowley is running Hell from his weird basement Throne Room.

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  96. The tragic thing is, the show did introduce a lot of great characters earlier who would've made good ensemble characters, but were killed off to underscore all the loss and pain - Ellen and Joe come to mind.



    Another way to make the show more of an ensemble and lighten the J2's load would be to change the way they hunt. For 10 years now, it has been "go to town, reserach, kill the monster, lather, rinse repeat" - its about time they took on a more Bobby-like role. The bunker was a perfect opportunity for it - they could provide a safe place for other hunters or train new ones and we might actually get to see a whole new dynamic about their different approach to that. Kevin was a good candidate for that as well. But, as usual, the writers are too scared to make any permanent changes to the format.

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  97. Oh, I thought you were protecting ME in particular, person who owns percy.
    Well, I like your posts very much and certainly hope that one gets out of moderation soon.

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  98. Yeah, while I hated the "baby locked in a garage" storyline in Season 7, I KNOW that Frank was right, that car and the aliases used by Sam and Dean would have put them on EVERYBODY'S list. So while I hated the loss of agents Bon and Jovi and (especially) Baby, SG was right. After what Sam and Dean have gotten away with, they should STILL be on "somebody's" list.

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  99. Yeah, I like Donna. As someone with a weight problem, I totally understand her not being able to lose it. I love Jodie. I think both characters could come in and out of the show and add to it. I enjoyed the episode where they met, even though it was Sam and Dean lite. I'm less fond of Cole and I really wish they either had cast him young enough for his backstory, or changed his backstory to Dean killed his brother and Cole was the age the actor is, because Cole being 10 years younger than Dean in the flashback then played by an actor who not only is older than Jensen, but looks Jensen's age is sloppy.

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  100. Didn't you LOVE Sam shooting Metatron? I sure did, rewound it a number of times.

    Anybody else think Metatron is lying about Castiels Grace? Like he originally lied about knowing how to get rid of the Mark of Cain, but couldn't do it NOW because Sam wanted RESULTS asap.

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  101. I thought because the new mantra was no angels killing angels. Of course, Hannah broke it almost immediately with the couple who just wanted to go fishing. But her point was good, angels possessing vessels just for their own enjoyment is WRONG. At least when they had "missions" there would be an end to the possession.

    So while Hannah broke the No Killing Angel rule, she was enforcing No More Vessels rule.

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  102. I personally like the way The Walking Dead does it, two half-seasons of eight episodes each. It whets my appetite, but I don't lose the plot line or character issues.

    Like WHY is there no episode this week? I can understand Christman hiatus; I can't understand spring hiatus; I don't understand just letting a week go by without an episode.

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  103. Other people keep mentioning about the actor's age. Personally I find him capable to standing toe-to-toe with Jensen (especially in the physical scenes) and that in a rare commodity for me.

    I really liked their fight in Reichenabach, and the Cain/Dean fight in Executioner's Song. Gosh, doesn't Cain have MARVELOUS hair?

    But they could have made Cole older in the first place, or just seen Teen Dean with John or something in the flashback. If they could put 25yo (or so) Jensen onto current-Jensen for that flashback, couldn't they have put Days of Our Lives Jensen there?

    I do agree, that sometimes the timeline for Cole and Dean is irksome, especially if Cole is supposed to be about 24 and has like a 6 or 8yo kid. They could have made it work out better.

    I think they liked the actor (like the kid who plays Teen Dean to perfection and is 20 or something) and should have fixed the story line.

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  104. THIS! Once you have the nightstand=Destiel the situation is too far gone to diffuse. They are just trying to ignore it and hope it dies down. It's sad, because as much as I like Sam and Cas, and I do like Sam and Cas, I thought Crowley and Sam had a basis for a relationship based on Sam partly curing Crowley. But that would have had Cas and Dean interacting and the queer baiting cries would have been terrible.

    At times I almost wish they would go with Sastiel or Samstiel as was mentioned in the 200th. It's hard to call queer baiting when they set up a queer relationship with a main character at the center. It gives the representation people claim they want, but it stops Destiel on the show. However I really, really don't want any romantic relationships on this show, so I don't want it except as a way to shut the rabid fans up.

    NOTE: I have no problem with shipping by fans. I just am sick of the constant calls for Destiel to be onscreen. It's not the queerness, it's the way this particular ship has twisted the show as it tries to manage the rabid shippers.

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  105. I just assumed that He used Castiels grace to perform the spell that made the angel's fall. I never thought there was any of it left. Now that Cas has Metatrons grace he should be able to power up significantly.

    And yes I love when Sam shot him, it was very satisfying.

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  106. Construct or not, he's still banging something that looks like an attractive female. They may not be real in the literal sense of being autonomous people, but they are real in the physical sense. And so the sex still should count.

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  107. Yeah, it goes on and on. Dean eating cake = bi (even though according to urban dictionary cake is a woman's booty), Dean listening to Taylor Swift = bi (and fairly offensive if you think about that reasoning). Hell that one scene in the restaurant where Dean asks Cas to kill if it comes down to it, had the shippers screaming about how Destiel was going to become canon.

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  108. Purgatory was just about the souls. Souls = power in SPN, and Crowley wanted more of it.

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  109. It's still the same Heaven, everyone gets their own little slice of paradise

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  110. Well, that actually could have tied into the black eyes. If they were meant to be real, and not a figment of his imagination, his callousness in that moment makes sense. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

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  111. He's going to lead Cas to Claire, who having served as his vessel holds residual grace in her body. That's where the little bit of grace left comes from, because if it was the grace Metatron stole, you would think he would stash it away in another galaxy or something, no Earth.

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  112. I think it has less to do with syndication and more to do with the actual schedule, which means the CW is going to have to find a new show to fill SPN's timeslot for half a year.

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  113. So we agree there is something fishy about Metatron and "the search for Castiel's grace." That guy would lie about how many bm's he has a day just for a giggle.

    What a hideous character.

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  114. The crazy thing about it the Js may think it's working mainly cause we have stan fans that keep screaming everything is perfect. To the writers on twitter too,.I think nobody will really get it over there till they hit a 0.5. Then maybe a light bulb may come on.


    In with those cons a friend of minds behind the scenes at one told me they usually will raise the prices specially if it keep being a success. In those fangirls buy the hell out of those con tickets. I personally would not go to one cause its usually the Same personal questions ask and nothing to do with the show. In that's the problem the people that do go don't even ask them the tough questions or tell they straight up your show is in trouble. Nope we get prank questions and babies in other stuff.

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  115. What's the point in asking them about writing, or asking them tough questions? I seriously don't get it. It's not like they write the show and it's not a place to ask questions like that. Moreover, fans go there to ask what they want and not what people want them to. Last cons were amazing, really great, people enjoy their time, they asked about their families but also Js are much more open lately and they bring up personal stuff by themselves. People share their stories, Js share their stories, they really into it. What's so wrong with that? Sure, some questions are repeated, but honestly, they are so great on stage, that they can make it interesting anyway. and there are plenty of Show questions. Fans love those events, guests love it, and I really didn't think that someone can actually say something bad about it.
    I noticed that suddenly in those comments everyone focused on Js and them spending less time on set, but as someone mentioned it's not in the way of figuring out good storyline for cas, Crowley and the rest of old/new characters. So let's not go crazy.
    Also, Js are not perfectly good with everything, they said few times that they had to rewrite the scenes because it was BS, or that the scene was so weird (remember 10x09 bar scene, with odd John story? They were kind of bitching about, I'm not surprised cause it was so stupid. )

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  116. You have excellent points, but since Carver ruined canon and the show for me with his first ep, I was just happy it had all my favorite characters in it and DID NOT have Charlie. I don't care for Crowley's mom, but at least he grew a pair and kicked her out. I don't expect much for the show any longer so enjoyed Crowley and Dean's talk, Sam and Cas working together and BOBBY was BACK. This is one of the few Carver eps that I can say was awesome.

    It just makes me very sad that my favorite series has fallen so far and it takes so little to make me smile. ;) I don't expect canon to be followed now.

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  117. If Charlie becomes a main character I am gone.

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  118. Maybe Charlie will be the spin off and I won't have another show I want to watch. lol

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  119. Frank was one of my favorite characters.

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  120. The LGBT is trying to take over the world and for one I am tired of every TV series having to have homosexual "love" in it. They need to stop pushing it in our faces, it is going to back fire big time...soon I hope.

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  121. So much wrong in just 2 sentences:

    1. Don't confuse Destiel shippers with LGBT. A lot of shippers are straight women who like homoeroticism. OTOH, I'm gay and I don't see Dean as anything other that a straight ladies' man and Cas as a devoted friend and asexual angel.

    2. Despite your claim of LGBT trying to "take over the world", the number of tv-shows with prominent gay characters - much less actual gay relationships - are way too low.

    3. Even shows that portray gay characters relegate them to a secondary status - the protagonists are always straight. I'd hardly call that pushing "homosexual love" in your faces on every show.

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  122. I want the bunker burned down. I don't want to see the brothers stuck in there episode after episode talking on the phone to anonymous hunters. It's introduction was awesome, and I really thought the show would go in the direction of the brothers embracing their legacy while expanding the hunter community with some realistic hunters with the Winchesters being hunter royalty, but it's just a permanent stage set to cut production costs and the legacy thing is in name only.

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  123. I like Cole better than the rest of them, but I find his channeling of JA's Dean annoying. There was an attempt to rehabilitate the character in his last episode, but it didn't work for me, and the reason it didn't is because, just like every episode with guest stars this season, the focus of the episode was on Cole, his story, and resolving his revenge issue.

    I am sure Cole is guaranteed to be back next season as an additional recurring with the excuse of he has to hunt to protect his family because the thing that killed his dad is still out there. Another character to give the Js their time off.

    Sheriff Donut, Jodi, lots more Charlie, Cas, Crowley, and more than one episode of Cole is my guess, which means that nothing about the show will change or improve over this year. I am pretty sure those characters can fill half a season or more with their own episodes.


    For three years now, Carver has said in interviews that he would explore the difference between monster and human, mature the characters, and have them face their inner demons. I can't see that any of that has happened.

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  124. I don't deny your point, but now what? Who cares what some fans have in their fantasy, they're doing a professional job here. The interactions between characters like Sam&Dean or Cas&Dean are some of the strong points of the show, people love to see TFW together, but they can't b/c the writers are afraid of accusation!!!!!


    I restate my opinion, while I do know some fans are too annoying, I believe the writers are baiting them too. Cas' fake heaven, telling Dean is Cas' top priority in 9.23 (while I really thought his main aim was to restore Heaven, his home), even this brilliant idea of separating them, are all queer baiting. I still don't see anything romantic about these examples, but I think they're too much and could be pretty suggestive.

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  125. That's not what I meant by having a Bobby-like role. Despite what we saw on "Weekend at Bobby's", Bobby did a lot more than just sit on his butt and answer calls. I'd like to see a rookie hunter desperately calling the Winchesters because he is in trouble and has no idea what he is up against. I'd like to see just one or two new characters being established slowly and Sam and Dean mentoring them without the show losing focus on them or making them incompetent (like they do with Charlie).



    Currently on the show, you see two types of "hunters" showing up:
    1. The veteran, who happens to know Sam and Dean and who usually dies in his first appearance.
    2. The newbie who is somehow as good at hunting as the Winchesters despite having much less experience.


    I'd like to see one or two recurring characters like Jo or what Kevin was becoming - competent, yet appropriately inexperienced as of now.

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  126. Cole was ruined for me the moment he was introduced - how do you claim to be obsessed with hunting down Dean Winchester and not know that a) he has been hunting monsters for the past 10 years, b) he is has been declared dead atleast 3 times and c) he'd be a wanted man if he was alive.



    Either Cole used semi-official channels to find Dean - asking various friends in law enforcement to keep an eye out - in which case, he should've heard that Sam and Dean were supposed to be dead. Or he did some actual detective work such as following up on where they had been seen - in which case he should've known about the monsters.

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  127. Thank you! This is NOT part of any agenda, other than straight females who want their sexual fantasies fulfilled. Frankly, I have always wondered why anyone would think the LGBT community as a whole would care why one show with around 2 million viewers should be the vanguard of queer representation. If there were a push to have LGBT representation in media wouldn't it be more productive to push NCIS or Criminal Minds to go that way. Heck Reid in Criminal Minds was conceived as bisexual until CBS put it's foot down. I really think that any activists would be working on getting that initial plot point reinstated if there was an agenda here. One half of Destiel is so gender fluid that it has actually taken the body of an eleven year old girl as a vessel. Would the Destielers be pushing the "profound bond" must be served if CLAIRE had stayed Cas's vessel?

    For the record, I think more LGBT representation is a good thing. That's why I'm perfectly open to Sam being queer. He actually has never stated he's straight, toyed with the idea of Sastiel, and has talked about the person who taught him yoga as someone bendy, not a female bendy. It doesn't serve what certain shippers want, and I don't personally want any romance in show, but it would be one way to stop at least part of the complaints if Sam had a same sex one night stand.

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  128. You are correct, the gay characters are usually just in passing, but my question is why all of a sudden is this happening? Don't get me wrong, I don't want to watch straight sex either, that is what porn and movie channels are for, not network TV. Just tell a good story and fade to black. ;)

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  129. Yes, but I say it's not like that small portion of the fans can do harm (not all Destielers are rude or rabid). Silencing them isn't worth damaging the show. And again I believe the writers are having a fit from baiting them. I explained more in my reply to Hellboy. While I don't feel any romance, I'm not blind and can see the baiting for the people who want to see the subtext.

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  130. It's called Carver as show running. He has one cannon one week the exact opposite the next week. Carver doesn't seem to know what he's doing. I can't blame the writer's because some have been there in Season 5, season 6 or in other words before Season 8. The only new in Season 8 is Carver so it's Carver responsible for the screw up. He's supposed to be guiding the writer's letting them know when things contradict and yet he's regularly failing too. When fans mention it he gets all rude about it.

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  131. Here's my opinion on why it happened now. First Supernatural is an unusually intense fandom with writers that have been more than willing to acknowledge and give shoutouts to various fan factions. The early years had Wincest hints. Heck even this season Dean asked Cas if Sam wanted a divorce after the demon!Dean actions. For the most part the fans took the winks and nods as winks and nods and ran off to write fanfiction. Only a deluded few ever thought it would become canon not only because of the unlikelyhood of a gay relationship being the primary focus of any show, let alone a CW show, but also incest would rule it out.

    Then Cas was introduced. He was a far more acceptable character to slash because no incest. His primary interactions were with Dean in the early seasons, so those who were not comfortable or did not see Wincest, but still felt homoeroticism had a safe place to focus on. They also saw a great deal of chemistry between Cas and Dean. (I never did, but chemistry can be subjective, so I have to admit that many, many fans saw it). Unlike Wincest this had a better chance of becoming canon. The writers (foolishly as it turned out) treated it the way they had Wincest, some winks and nods, dialog that could construe the relationship as romantic and giving shippers ample material to write their fan fictions. This was also done in season 4where Sam's negative behaviors were being shown without context, so Cas was seen as supportive of poor tortured Dean and Sam was seen as being mean to Dean. That led to some fandom rejection of Sam as a character, which remains to this day. Suddenly the two forces had a common goal, give Dean someone "worthy" of his wonderfulness and reduce Sam's rol if not write out him out altogether. The rabid Destielers had an opening that other slash couples had not before. This did coincide with a societal change where gay relationships were seen as more acceptable and gay were becoming more visible on TV. Suddenly the rabid fans had a platform that made them heroic for wanting their ship. It wasn't that they were selfish like former slashers. They weren't doing this for their own desire to see two hot men get together. Oh No! They were championing equal rights for all! Their sole and total interest was NOT in servicing THEIR fantasies. They goal is universal harmony and giving much needed representation of queer relationship their due. They are not like those nasty grubby people who shipped Clark and Lex in Smallville or Jim and Blair in Sentinel or even Spock and Kirk in Star Trek. They are doing this for the good of mankind! They are pure and righteous! Basically it was a club to use to promote an agenda that could be used to make anyone who didn't support their particular pairing look bigoted and hateful.

    Now don't get me wrong. There are queer viewers who see Destiel and do wonder why the CW thought it was perfectly acceptable to show a man having an affair with an entity that is a black woman part of the time, a dog part of the time, wears a dog collar all the time and calls the man master. They also note that the same show had no issues having Dean express sexual attraction to a POODLE in Dog Dean Afternoon, but still finds stating a same sex attraction too problematic to show. Since I find MBFWB and DDA impossible to defend, I do see the conflict. I do think the show has had some massive problems in how it treats race, gender and sexuality, but I also think the use of cries of homophobia and queer bating are more a tactic to get the ship they want on screen than a truly held belief of those making the charges.

    All that said,I do know that SOME of those making the charges do believe them and are honest in their concerns. I'm not trying to paint everyone as less than truly concerned, but I think the majority are taken advantage of societal changes as a club to change the show.

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  132. Since you see the baiting, I have no issue with the writers saying they are done with this stuff and they are going to separate Cas and Dean to stop the accusations. Why should they continue to write something that is placing them in an uncomfortable position. If you are working and a group of people say you are behaving in a way that offends them sometimes it's easier to change your behavior than keep up the fight, even if it makes it more difficult for others.

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  133. Well, that's your take, and I have mine. I don't want romance (one reason I got interested in SPN in the first place was it), I don't try to find any romantic implication and I'm certainly not delusional, yet I still see the baiting. And I'm sure I'm not alone. Who can prove I'm wrong and you're right? I don't have such strong trust you have in the writing staff about not baiting, but in anyway separating them is a childish answer to a childish accusation.
    About your workplace example, I definitely don't change who I am to please a bunch of mindless accusers :)

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  134. I was not just talking about SPN, I have never seen anything but friendship between Dean and Cas.

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  135. I love SPN, but at this point I'm more than ready for it to be over. I hope that the next season will be the last one, and that they are able to make it somehow "special" for the fans and everyone involved. Or, they could get rid of the (post season 5) mythology and send them to the Wild West for an entire season or something.

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  136. I agree with you about ensemble characters. Honestly I can't figure out what all these uproar about workload is, lots of the tv shows have 2-5 main characters with 1-2 being more main! But with good writing they can manage pretty well. Everyone can interact, guest stars don't steal the show, there's no forced fan favorite character shoved to the show, there's no unbalanced writing for the main characters, and in many cases the cast are living in another city.
    Just good writing and a capable showrunner who can handle it and straighten up the writers and the cast to work for the show, not as they please. Now that I think about it, SPN has become an ensemble show of writers with huge egos and 'fan favorite' guest characters!

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  137. You think Cole is channeling Dean (ie Travis channeling Jensen)? I hadn't thought that. Do you think it's actor choices or the script is written to be paralleling that much?

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  138. He gets all rude about it ?
    I've never seen him respond to fan feedback, the guy seems to be completely oblivious to it.
    I mean look at Rowena. I've never seen a character that's so universally hated by the fandom. Yet by the end of the season she'll be in the all-time-top five when it comes to supporting cast screentime.
    Kripke and Gamble weren't afraid to take some measures when the fans were loud enough (even though a few mistakes were made because of that).

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  139. Cole, as introduced, came off as a psychopath, and his backstory was flimsy. As I said, I think they tried to rehabilitate him in this last episode by having him understand what his father had turned into and why Dean killed him. It didn't work for me, because the character is put on Dean's level. He's tough, he's a badass, he begs to be electrocuted -- not with just a little zap like Dean, Sam, and Rufus, but with one that caused him to quit breathing -- and that is solely to make him a recurring hunter.


    I would rather watch him than CHARLIE, or even Sheriff Donut and -- now -- momma Jodi, or Garth, or Barbie werewolf, and certainly CLAIRE, as hunters, but I am not excited with him at all. I don't find the character interesting, or that the actor has much screen charisma, and his acting is limited and it shows.

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  140. That is an unfortunate truth, it is why I'm glad this review exists. There is way too much "behind" kissing going on Twitter and Tumblr and unfortunately even professional reviewers. Maybe it is fear that they will loose exclusive rights to BTS content or pissing off fans. Who knows.

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  141. Going the route of cable network will be the best choice they can make. That or just go online completely and offer a streaming service like Netflix.

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  142. I hated Jo as much as I hate Charlie, and I didn't like Kevin's teenage hysteria. I would like it if we saw experienced hunters who didn't look like psychopaths (I'm thinking of types like Lee Chambers) and who got in trouble or could not figure something out and called the Winchesters in for help, which would put the Winchesters as hunter royalty (which I think they should be at this stage of the game). Those hunters could live to see another day and that would broaden a competent hunter-verse.


    I think it is too late for the show to develop newbie hunters, since I expect S12 to be the last one, and I certainly don't want to see a bunch of CW teenagers as experienced or more competent hunters (I am looking at you, Krissy Chambers).,,,and I have had enough of the instal-hunters the writers create.

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  143. It would work if they eliminated their failing Monday and Friday schedules and use those shows to fill the timeslots. Everyone knows whatever they air on Fridays is pretty much dead (that's why I doubt The Messengers will survive). Mondays are not doing any better either. Shorter seasons means they can focus their programs on Tuesday - Wednesday and Thursday. The 100 is already a half season show, so will iZombie probably. They can make The Originals, Supernatural and TVD half seasons shows too, Maybe keep the Flash and Arrow since they are the strongest rated. Jane The Virgin is probably cheaper to film so it can also stay a full season.

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  144. I think an assemble cast would have worked if they had started to do it back in season 2 with the introduction of the hunting world and still early enough that such a major shift wouldn't have felt like whiplash. But at this late in the game I don't think it really works. Less so considering most of the characters that could have worked are dead, leaving us with Charlie, Garth and Krissy types or introducing an entire new cast. Something that didn't work for the X-Files, Buffy or Charmed who tried to do something like that for their last season(s). And will work less for Supernatural.


    Plus the writers can barely write for two main leads and two supporting, they aren't going to suddenly get better if they have to write for a large assemble.

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  145. I discussed with several European organizers, that's where I learned the fees. I'll try to find the exact messages, that was over a year ago.
    As for the number of cons it's closer to twenty a year included the European ones. There are several months where they only attend one Con.

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  146. So 20 a year, rounds out to about one every six weeks. OK.

    I had heard about Jared taking his wife down to Brazil for a hefty appearance fee and all expenses visit to a GOOD hotel in Rio for a week (?); now I would do that in a minute.

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  147. Tessa, would you say I should start looking after noon on Sunday for your Gripe Reviews?

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  148. The crazy thing about it the Js may think it's working mainly cause we
    have stan fans that keep screaming everything is perfect. To the
    writers on twitter too,.I think nobody will really get it over there
    till they hit a 0.5. Then maybe a light bulb may come on.


    But these "stans" are viewers as well. I'm not happy with the entire Carver reign, but I can't say that the fans who are should be ignored. The Live +7s came in for "The Things They Carried". The demo increased by 100% to 1.2. That is a drop from the normal 1.4 that we usually get in Live +7, but it still puts us as the #4 watched show after The Flash, Arrow and TVD. I personally wish they would hire a new show runner who has a different, more cohesive vision for Supernatural, but I also know that a lot of people apparently still enjoy SPN. In many ways this falls into my Survivor mentality. I have no interest in watching the show, but millions of people do, so who am I to say that something I want to watch should be put on instead.

    Right now, I'm in the stage of being unhappy with the show and complaining about it. When it gets bad enough I'll quit watching. But I can't blame the CW for continuing to produce a show that is making them money and has more viewers than most of the shows on the network. I will certainly NEVER blame the Js for sticking with the show, nor will I blame them for making the choices that they think are best for their families. They go to the production company and say this is what I need to stay with the show. The production company says okey dokey sounds good to us. I would never quit a job that was supporting my family and giving me working conditions that made me happy, so why should I expect them to do that? If their demands are seen as unreasonable and aren't met by the CW then the show ends. What I see are two guys who pretty well give it their all on every script. My understanding is that they have both said that they no longer can work 14 hour days, 6 days a week, the way they did when the show started. The only demand I have heard rumors of is that however many days they shoot, they want those days to be together so that they can go home to their families during down time. What I'm talking about is if they have 4, 14 hour days in a 7 day period that those days be together so that on the three days off they can fly back home. That really is not unreasonable at all, IMHO.

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  149. Yup - with all the witnesses they have left behind, all the camera's in todays society, all the burnings and stabbed vessels and dug up graves, there should be a whole case file on this strange activity, that should have basically given birth to an X Files/Fringe division in the SN-verse by now. There could have been a whole storyline - ideally one that could have left Cas in a more definitive role as the inside guy keeping things safe and misleading the anti winchester a task force from the inside.

    I also didn't mind seeing other old school cars in S7, if they had a bigger budget, it could have been a "thing" that year.

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  150. There is nothing wrong with wanting representation, but in the case of SPN it has less to do with LGBT representation and more with a small faction of fans wanting their fanfiction validated and real, and use the umbrella of LGBT representation to call everyone that disagrees homophobes and queerbaiters.

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  151. The whole point of introducing the ensemble cast now would be to change the dynamic of the show. The "brothers against the world" dynamic that got us into the show was great and it lasted quite a bit, but now it has been played out almost completely. Now we are just retreading the old ground with them saving each-other or lying to each-other or fighting each-other or fighting for each-other. Introducing some supporting characters would be a shift that may infuse some freshness into the show.


    Ofcourse, whether or not it is successful would depend on how well it is written. Obviously, I don't think that the current team who are coming up with sub-par storylines for supporting characters and coming up with sub-par guests like Garth are the right people to make that shift.

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  152. Think of it this way - Sam and Dean were sort of newbie hunters when they were introduced. Sure, they had experience and knew a lot of stuff, but there was a lot that they didn't know and they needed help from their dad (the journal) or Bobby or had to call up some of their other contacts. Someone like that might work even if it is just for 2 seasons - someone in early 20's, with decent hunting and tracking skills, a good enough fighter and with a basic knowledge of how the supernatural world works. Ironically, introduction of Cole might've fit the bill perfectly, but they screwed it up by trying to do too much in too short a time.

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  153. Tessa, instead of reading people's opinions on it, here is a complete transcription of Jared's answer. Draw your own conclusions.

    Fan: I was just wondering if in “The Executioner’s Song”, if the Castiel/Colette parallel was a big part of the plot or if it was just something that happened?
    Jared: I’ll let you take this one.
    Jensen: I think she really wanted to hear from you.
    (Pause because of audience laughter)
    Jared: Um...I think that the parallel was on purpose; I mean, I think that one of the things our writers do very well is play opposites and parallels, - perpendiculars and parallels for you mathletes out there - um...we see a lot- we see often with Sam and Dean, you know, like we saw Sam, for instance, in season 4, going through this change because he was becoming more powerful than he really knew how to take hold of; we kinda see that with Dean right now, we see the other brother- so you- they play a lot with how different characters will react in similar situations, so I think you noticing the parallel is a, is a kudos to you, ‘cause I think it was done on purpose.
    Fan: Thank you.
    Jared: Thank you

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  154. It depends where in the world you are. I live in Pacific North West and have it set to go out at 8:30 am my time on Sunday. In UK that's 4:30 pm. I do it that way so people in both America and Europe could get it on a good time.

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  155. his humanity makes him want to love and to be loved and Rowena presents the only opportunity in that regard.That might be the intention and I have a strong feeling it is. However Rowena is such a badly written character it's like wanting to be loved by a flee.

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  156. I
    totally disagree with this article and as a SUPERNATURAL’s fan I’m very sad and
    a bit angry, because I think it’s impossible to imagine something like that. J2
    and all the cast are always spectacular. We know J2 as Dean and Sam and Jensen
    and Jared: they are amazing people, extremely correct very protective of their
    characters and they would never, never and never make the show less than wonderful, because they
    love the show, they respect it and they respect SUPERNATURAL’s followers, even if, according
    to them, they think of their family. They show their regard in their
    performances and their presence at many meetings and different conventions with
    fans. They are simply awesome and astonishing.

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  157. or you could look at it this way,, she's female on spn so if she becomes a regular next season, she's prob going to die some horrible way.

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  158. i would love to see a story arc where cas finds a way to remove the mark by taking it on himself and becoming dark/tormented angel again. than dean will have something else to blame himself for and go back to the "do anything to save a brother" mode.

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  159. Not Queen Bee Charlie. She's Robbie Thompson in drag, so as long as he is in the writer stable, we will all have to bow at the alter of her awesomeness....or, in my case, not watch the episodes she is in. I am done with him...err...her.

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  160. He did. Fans apparently repeatedly asked why Sam didn't look for Dean. He replied with "Because he didn't." in a very snarky tone as if he were pissed off by so many asking the question. How is that not a rude answer?

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