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SpoilerTV - TV Spoilers

POLL : What did you think of Supernatural - Angel Heart?

30 Apr 2015

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106 comments:

  1. Toni30 April 2015 at 03:06

    It's a miracle but I did not hate this episode.
    I actually liked quite a lot about it. Claire was so toned down, thankfully, I even liked her.
    I didn't like the other Angels but that's the only villain they seem to be able to come up with lately. A new version of dick angels.
    I love Cas and Sam scenes. I loved the end scene with Dean/Claire and her apology. Then she hugged Cas. It was sweet.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Katherine30 April 2015 at 03:09

    First time I voted ok....

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  3. BoxManLocke30 April 2015 at 03:19

    Until about halfway through the episode I was preparing myself to defend Robbie Thompson since he gets so much crap around here, but after that, boy did the quality drop like a rock !
    I did like the beginning though. I don't think Claire was annoying considering what she's been through. She was determined and brave. I liked that Sam got to interact with her for once. It all seemed to be leading to somewhere interesting, even though the half-assed mentions to the mark were annoying as hell.
    It really started going downhill once Cass and Sam got the bad guy's lair.
    First of all, even though the actor was cool, I didn't like the concept of the MoTW. Felt like a poor man's Djinn, and the usual douche angel we met a hundred times.
    But that's not the issue. The issue is the terrible writing after that.
    Sam gets knocked out because of course he does, and while he gets interrogated or whatever, Castiel is there in the same building merrily chatting with Amelia as if there was no urgency whatsoever. He's not wondering where Sam is, and he's not even answering his phone.
    Then when Dean arrives, he and Cass go looking for Sam while leaving a teenager and her injured mom alone, knowing a powerful angel is on the loose.
    Which leads to Amelia's super lame death, which leads to her super cheesy reunion in heaven with Jimmy. In the end it felt like a giant waste of time, really. And Cass' identity issues are nowhere near resolved.
    The last scene would have been pretty good if Claire had been traumatized like she should have been, watching her mother die in her arms and all. But really she just looked bored.
    It's a shame really, this episode could have been really good if the second half hadn't been written like the laziest of season 10 standalone episodes.

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  4. jane30 April 2015 at 03:28

    I didn't dislike it as much as I thought I might. Claire wasn't as annoying as last time. A least she did apologize to Dean. So I guess Heaven is now open? Would be nice if we could see them have a conversation with Mrs. Tran.

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  5. Shannon30 April 2015 at 03:31

    I was bored. And the fact that she "saved" all three of them really irked me. I was not having a good night tonight, and was hoping this episode would help, Smh it just didn't.

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  6. MythAl30 April 2015 at 03:42

    I'm sorry but what a skippable episode. Dean smashing guy's face on a table means he is snapping? LOL. And then Castiel saved the world? I'm having amnesia or something? I thought it was Sam jumping into the cage with Dean helping.


    SPOILERS (I know it's SPOILER TV ,just for alert...)


    I'm really worried about next episode. I fell like Charlie is going to die and that will set Dean off. Symmetry is a thing for those writers ( Dean - Kevin, Sam - Charlie). For the love of god, please don't make Sam responsible for it, he carries around enough guilt and I know we will never hear the end of it (meanwhile Kevin is never mentioned anymore...). Enough with throwing Sam under the bus. He gets sh*t when he lets go (S8) and gets sh*t when he doesn't. It's not only an old thing but is unfair

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  7. chris68430 April 2015 at 03:43

    Conflicting thoughts here. Like a lot of Thompson episodes, there are some good moments until the story becomes a bit questionable.

    So what I liked:
    - Unlike the other Claire storylines, this plot was supernatural based
    - In the first half, Sam actually did a bit of talking
    - Claire was dialed back and somewhat likable
    - It tied up loose ends from the Novak family history
    - the new angel mythology as kind of interesting, although I was scratching my head on how Dean knew about angel swords, since I think we've seen all of his angel confrontations, and they always carry daggers

    What I didnt like:
    - I'm not touching the Cas saved the world line - [sigh] at this point I'm pretty used to it with Sam [and mentally adding this latest example to the flattening article]. What's actually is bugging me more was Dean characterizing Jimmy being extorted into giving up his body to an angel who at the time was NOT trying to save the world, but was working for the side trying to bring about the apocalypse, as a hero. Not saying Jimmy was at fault, but he was forced into this, it wasn't a choice made for the greater good.
    - What started on a positive note [Sam bonding with Claire], ended with the too familiar Thompson pattern of having Sam leave the scene so that Dean can get the personal goodbye with the guest star. Remind anyone of Krissy?
    - Finally, we were told only soul mates find each other in heaven, and that happens rarely. Are we to think the rules have changed, or that Jimmy and Amelia are soulmates? If no, this raises further questions on why Bobby wasn't with his wife or friends in Heaven.

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  8. Hollowers30 April 2015 at 03:55

    Beautiful character focused episode that did not slight plot. Interaction between all the characters was so well written and HONEST (something we don't see much of). I liked Sam's revelation of how he sees his mother, the moments between all three men and Claire really brought out so much of each character. Sad via Cas/Jimmy story but also a revelation of who S/D might've been as Dads. Really a smart glimpse of what "might've been" as we face the horrors of the next few episodes.

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  9. shandi30 April 2015 at 04:08

    i totally agree with your thoughts here on the episode. it may not have moved along the mytharc, but i thought it was wonderful. i too loved the moments that claire shared with each man, and particularly loved the interaction between her and dean. i thought jimmy waiting for amelia in heaven - the flip of her fantasy - was poignant. and i appreciated the reference to jody mills as the person who would give claire a chance to catch her breath.

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  10. BrittneyAngel2010 .30 April 2015 at 04:11

    About your first paragraph under "What I didn't like".
    1) Dean was trying to make Claire feel better by saying that her dad made a noble sacrifice by giving up his body & life.
    2) Dean never said Castiel saved the world by himself but Castiel definitely was a part of the saving of the world and was needed. Castiel helped Sam & Dean get out of a lot of bad situations, killed angels so Dean could even get near Zacharia to kill him, killed the Croatoan man who was going to kill Sam (the person who put Lucifer back in the cage), got rid of Michael long enough for Dean to be able to reach Sam by bypassing Lucifer on the field, and brought Bobby back to life (and Bobby's contributions were numerous since Castiel resurrected him)
    3) When Jimmy first said 'yes' to Castiel, Castiel was not in the loop on the angels bringing on the end of days. Castiel was sent back to Heaven because he tried to warn Sam & Dean (that's how we met Jimmy in the first place). Then Castiel switched sides, so the time that Castiel knowingly tried to bring on the end of the world was short.
    4) Jimmy was never forced into anything. He initially said 'yes' because he was religious, naive and wanted to help. He said 'yes' the second time because he wanted Castiel out of Claire. Jimmy did that because he is a good father but the decision was his.

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  11. BrittneyAngel2010 .30 April 2015 at 04:16

    Dean was able to reach Sam because Castiel got rid of Michael long enough for Dean to have some alone time with Sam/Lucifer on the field.
    Plus Castiel saved Sam's life before all of that (Croatoans and a shot gun). Plus Castiel helped Sam & Dean get to the point where they were trying to put Lucifer back in the cage.
    Dean never said Castiel saved the world by himself but Castiel did contribute was an important part in putting Lucifer back in the cage.

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  12. chris68430 April 2015 at 04:22

    I understand that Dean was trying to make Claire feel better, but this wasn't presented as Dean bending the truth to make Claire feel better. It was presented like it was the truth as Dean sees it. I get that Cas helped them, but the wording inflated his role. On point 4, I was talking about the second time Jimmy said yes - the time Claire remembers. I used the word "extorted," not "forced," which I believe is accurate. But since you mention it, I'm not sure forced is inaccurate, since the life of his daughter was at stake.

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  13. BrittneyAngel2010 .30 April 2015 at 04:33

    His role was not inflated. Dean, Sam, Bobby, Castiel and even Crowley saved the world by getting rid of Lucifer. if anyone of them was not there then they ultimately would not have put Lucifer back in the box. They all saved the world, Dean just only mentioned Castiel because of the point he was trying to make to Claire.
    Jimmy did not have a very good choice but he he a choice, he made the decision and could not be talked out of it.

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  14. with love and squalor30 April 2015 at 04:44

    I really, really enjoyed the episode!
    But: Wasn’t Dean the one who gave a speech about „being stronger together bla bla bla“ just last week? While Sam looked out oft he car window and plotted his secret plan to safe Dean – decidedly without Dean? This week it seems to be Sams turn to stress how important it is to stick together. Dean on the other hand all of the sudden thinks that family and friends just hold people back and as such must be counted as weakness. I guess we should be used to this kind of uneven writing by now (I believe SPN has been doing that since season one) but it still irks me sometimes.
    Also: Am not sure whether it was such a great idea to leave the guy who supposedly just „snapped“ alone with the teenage girl who tried to kill him not too long ago. Then again, we got the mini golf scene out of that, so who really cares about logic and psychological realism….

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  15. AnnoDomini30 April 2015 at 04:58

    I actually liked this episode featuring Claire and I wasn't a huge fan of the character either.


    My only small little nitpick was that Grigori is such a kind of character that should've been given more than one episode.

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  16. João Paulo30 April 2015 at 05:58

    Great episode, I like the relationship between Cas, the brothers and Claire end up in this episode, I hope she returns soon.


    I like they the mithology of the gregorian angels, I hope more of his kind appears in the future. I hope the producers came with something huge in the season finale, it's time for another big story to finish the show for real.

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  17. Ceryle30 April 2015 at 06:04

    Good episode. Could have been a lot worse, so I was content with what we got. I like Claire, and I liked her even better during this episode. She's still a "troubled teen," so of course she's still whiny and annoying and short-sighted, but she's also been forced to grow up quickly and her character has changed and grown (and dare I say matured?) since we met her this season. Perhaps most important, she's learned the value of forgiveness, which was illustrated so powerfully as she ran into her mother's arms, even calling her "Mommy." No other words needed.


    Thompson also gave us insight into her three very different relationships with the members of Team Free Will. I particularly loved Sam's conversation with Claire about their mothers (wish it wasn't so rushed!) and the mini golf scene. Yep, still a teenager. (And Dean is still a genius, no matter what he thinks.)


    The final scene – Willie Nelson, plus Claire looking out the cab window – was beautiful.


    Like most Thompson episodes, the dialogue sometimes felt stilted and weird, and the whole episode seemed rushed. A few other nitpicks:


    - Didn't Sam slam a guy's head into a bar to get information in 10x12? And didn't Dean and Sam both torture a reaper in 9x03? (pre-MOC, in other words) Still not getting why Dean's actions prove he's getting worse. Last week with the vamps and the bloody fridge – OK. Getting there. But that's about it. Jensen has been doing an admirable job of giving Dean a kind of manic edge despite the unconvincing material he has to work with. Wish the writers would be willing to take more of a risk with Dean going darkside, as they did with Sam back in Season 4, and even Dean in early Season 2.


    - The scenes at the barn were silly and illogical. What was Cas doing the whole time Sam was tied up and Dean was driving to the location? (Note: I did like Sammy breaking out of the cuffs. Digging a nail out of somewhere – classic Winchester move.) Why did the brothers leave Claire and Amelia alone? Nevertheless, Amelia's death was incredibly sad, if rushed. Kudos to Newton for that scene.


    - The MotW had a lot of potential, but wound up being so weak. An angel feeding on human souls? That's fascinating. Wouldn't the effect be a milder version of Cas swallowing those souls from purgatory? Would that boost the angel's power? What's the value of feeding on a few souls over a long period of time? Why the dreams? Are happy souls more powerful? Bottom line: Why didn't we get to explore any of these questions? Instead, we got an angelic djinn who was dispatched after like three minutes total screen time. Too bad. Hope there are truly others out there for the boys to fight in the future.


    - Two Dean-related inconsistencies: One, Dean all but dismissed Cas in 10x09 when the angel needed help with Claire, but outside the hospital he acts like Cas should know that of course he'll drop everything to help. (I'll admit, this is almost not an inconsistency because Dean has always been hot and cold when it comes to Cas.) Two, Dean said just last week that he and Sam were stronger together, then he tells Claire the opposite. Are we supposed to think Dean didn't mean what he said to Sam? Not buying it.

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  18. sharonally30 April 2015 at 07:00

    The problem is Sam's role is being underdeflated , yes everybody chipped in but ulitmately it was Sam who took Lucifer in and jumped into that pit. He was the one who would of suffered for eternity and did suffer . We have had Charlie thanking Dean for saving the world and now Castiel , so how does Thompson see Sam's role in that event ?.

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  19. dietcokebreak30 April 2015 at 08:32

    According to Jensen's interview from yesterday Dean finds out and is pissed because he's worried about what could happen to Sam or others and is proved right when something bad happens. Given the synopsis for 10.22 Sam is definatley going to be in guilt mode and Dean is going to be in self righteous 'I told you so, now I have to clean up your mess' mode. I dont know if anyone dies though, not that Sam would be any more responsible for that persons death than Dean was for Kevin's but that will no doubt be ignored by Dean and his fans.

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  20. Robanah30 April 2015 at 08:34

    This episode just felt lazy to me. There were some very good moments. I really enjoyed seeing Claire interact with the brothers. It was great to see that she wanted to become a hunter as well. I still cannot stand Claire, although she was very dialed back in this episode. I''d say this was a "meh" so so episode. I liked the Dean/Charlie bonding episode back in season eight much better though.

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  21. Robanah30 April 2015 at 08:40

    Sure hope Charlie doesn't die :'( The only way she could is if Rowena kills her some how. I doubt it though. She the baby Winchester so probably not, she'll just be brought back to life again lol

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  22. Robanah30 April 2015 at 08:44

    The synopsis says "Sam comes to term with his decision" I wonder if that means he becomes a member of the Styne clan or something. Jared did have some kind of black ink on his arm when he was filming, so who knows

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  23. maloose30 April 2015 at 10:45

    I liked it despite not being a fan of teenage drama. The main reason is they always tend to portray teenagers as rude smart-mouthed and bratty who never own up their mistakes, this time Claire 'apologized' and returned Cas' affection!!! That's a big plus.


    Something caught my attention was the huge difference between Dean and Sam's opinion about being alone. When Dean said being alone is better, maybe I'm wrong, but it didn't feel like the mark talking, it was like talking from experience. On the other hand when Sam said being alone is never good, despite he himself left at 18, and through the seasons we've seen he was mostly OK with leaving Dean when he was angry, I was surprised and happy. I'm glad we're getting Sam's 'positive' POV this season.


    Also I liked Jimmy's heaven, I'm all for a canon violation if they fix that sad crap about isolated heavens.

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  24. chris68430 April 2015 at 12:39

    There's an implication of a certain level of involvement in the statement that "x saved the world." If you follow this logic, Gabriel in leaving Sam and Dean clues about the rings, saved the world. Claire in saying yes to Cas, which forced Jimmy to step up and become Cas's vessel again, saved the world.

    And flip that around, you could say Cas, in initially stopping Dean from going to Sam when Sam was going after Lilith, started the apocalypse. Claire, in saying yes to Cas, leading to Cas talking Jimmy's body back and stopping Dean, started the apocalypse. At some point this gets ridiculous and misleading. Thompson's original line about Cas helping to save the world would have been fine, but the fact that it was changed to exaggerate Cas's importance leads to the question, why?

    On the second point, Jimmy's "choice" was made under a threat against his daughter (who was not old enough to consent when she said yes to Cas). Cas had control of her body and wasn't releasing it until Jimmy forfeited his own. Even the law recognizes that a "choice" made under coercement isn't really a choice.

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  25. lala230 April 2015 at 12:40

    Oh, so Sam will be thrown under the bus in the next episode? Sadly, that's not surprising.

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  26. chris68430 April 2015 at 13:02

    Sam lives under the bus.

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  27. Louise30 April 2015 at 13:45

    Hi, Robanah, when Cas first found Amelia and tried to heal her wounds he was not able to. He stated his confusion then, to the effect of, usually I'm able to heal such wounds. I think the fact that they were made by this thought to be extinct angels with a different weapon, and angel sword, established it then that Gregory (or Gregorian) angels have powers that other angels are not able to heal.

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  28. Ginger30 April 2015 at 16:08

    Thompson's Daddy!Dean fanfic story. Hated it. The whole purpose of the episode was to establish Claire as a hunter so they now have two recurring females who cannot possibly be love interests for the Winchesters -- Charlie and Claire. Personally, I would take Ruby and Bela over those two. Those two characters at least fit into the SPNverse, the actors were better, and their stories had some relevancy to the supernatural.

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  29. BrittneyAngel2010 .30 April 2015 at 17:05

    There were no 'threats' made against Claire. Claire said yes to Castiel & Castiel kicked ass in Claire's body. Castiel did not want to go back into Jimmy's body but Jimmy insisted that Castiel take Jimmy again even though Castiel tried to talk Jimmy out of it. Jimmy had crappy choices but he had choices. BTW, angel possession does not have a 'consent age'.


    I did forget that Gabriel also saved the world, 1) by telling them how to reopen Lucifer's cage and 2) fighting with Lucifer so they could escape.


    It's a very basic concept and I will try to spell it out.
    1) Castiel was one of many people who saved the world
    2) Castiel could not have done it if he did not have a vessel so Jimmy's sacrifice was important
    3) Castiel's part in saving the world was not said to be more important then anyone else's. Dean only mentioned Castiel because Castiel's contribution was the only contribution RELEVANT to the point he was trying to make to Claire.
    4) You are reading too much into what Dean said, this show is only a hour long (actually more like 40 minutes), if the writers spelled it out exactly as it happened the scene would have been longer. The way Dean said it was a short, easy way of fulfilling the purpose of telling Claire that her father made a noble sacrifice.

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  30. BrittneyAngel2010 .30 April 2015 at 17:12

    Charlie was not thanking Dean. She was thanking both of Sam & Dean, who were sitting next to Charlie at the table. Charlie said "Thank you for saving the world", Charlie never said "Thank you, Dean, for saving the world. It should have been obvious to everyone that Charlie was talking to both Sam & Dean during that entire conversation.


    Dean saying Castiel 'saved' the world was not to make Castiel's contributions anymore important then anyone else's. 1) Castiel's contribution was the only RELEVANT contribution to the point Dean was trying to make to Claire. 2) Supernatural is 40 minutes long, Dean made his point to Claire in the quickest way possible (explaining the whole situation would have taken too long)


    People are reading way too much into Dean's comment.

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  31. Random Flux30 April 2015 at 17:29

    I didn't even let the DVR finish recording this mess.

    As far as I'm concerned, it never happened. Poof. Gone. Deleted.

    Time to get back to the show.

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  32. sharonally30 April 2015 at 17:30

    Charlie was looking at Dean when she made that comment if it was meant for both then it should of been framed differently.
    I can only go by how a scene or comment is made why change it from its original line it was not necessary and by dropping 'helped' changes the context completely . Maybe people can be accused of reading to much into it but then again maybe they are not.

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  33. maloose30 April 2015 at 17:46

    I agree with you. I never felt she was just addressing Dean when she thanked them. And I know Thompson had written 'help in saving' for Cas, though it got changed during the shot, but I've seen the show and know they all worked and helped to save the world.
    I wouldn't argue this matter much, it's not that people read too much into Dean's comment, it's that some people 'like' to think it was Sam who saved the world, with some help from others, so they get defensive whenever it's implied otherwise.

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  34. chris68430 April 2015 at 17:58

    Thanks for the condescending response.

    Cas's message to Jimmy after telling him that he's possessing his daughter now: "I wanna make sure you understand. You won't die or age. If this last year was painful for you, picture a hundred, a thousand more like it."

    No father would want that for their child. You really think Jimmy's cry to take him instead was because he had a change of heart and really wanted to become an angel vessel again, and not because he wanted his daughter spared the pain he had endured?

    "You are reading too much into what Dean said, this show is only a hour long (actually more like 40 minutes)"



    And you're writing long responses to what was originally only one of 8 different points that I brought up to talk about with this episode. You're entitled to your reaction. I'm entitled to mine. I stand by everything I said. Let's leave it at that and move on.

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  35. Hollowers30 April 2015 at 18:00

    Half an hour ago it was at 70% "awesome". Not buying the speedy turnaround. Too many socks spoiling the honesty. Too much hate spoiling the fandom.

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  36. chris68430 April 2015 at 18:15

    These polls are limited to one vote per IP address.

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  37. sharonally30 April 2015 at 18:22

    I am fully aware of what some fans wanted from the end of SS however my issue is not with who did what but rather that what Sam actually did is not diminished because as I said ultimately he was the one that jumped into that pit regardless of anything else.

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  38. jane30 April 2015 at 18:31

    I agree this is just strange. Some how this is being rigged.

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  39. lala230 April 2015 at 18:41

    Hahaha! You're right about that!

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  40. maloose30 April 2015 at 18:45

    I wasn't part of the fandom until 2 years ago, what happened about SS?


    Apart from our differences in saying who was more important in saving the world, my point is I don't see anyone diminishing Sam's role, from Charlie's thanks or Dean's comment here. You can have your interpretation, but I suggest you to take a look at these instances from another perspective, with less prejudice. After all we've seen what happened, we don't need to hang on to paraphrasing.

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  41. chris68430 April 2015 at 18:54

    People sometimes link to or tweet these things to a popular group on social media, and that can cause the numbers to suddenly change. The total number of votes are still low enough that only 100 votes could change the distribution significantly.

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  42. lala230 April 2015 at 18:59

    You can only vote once on this poll. I voted "OK" just now.

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  43. CyanaT30 April 2015 at 19:01

    I was 'on' late last night and this ep had ~ 50% Awesome and ~ 20-25% Awful so the current numbers just more accurately reflect what you term dichotomy. Some fans love any and all D/C and/or and MarySue scenes and others intensely dislike them. I rated 10.20 Poor.

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  44. CyanaT30 April 2015 at 19:04

    10.20 was the Bloodlines of S10 - never happened either.

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  45. Ceryle30 April 2015 at 19:04

    Exactly. Last night the poll showed 50% awesome and this morning it volleyed back up to over 70% awesome. Fans can skew these polls both ways if the link circulates in the right corners of the fandom.

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  46. Ginger30 April 2015 at 19:04

    I would re-watch Bloodlines before I tried to watch this one again.

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  47. chris68430 April 2015 at 19:08

    I didn't hate it, but your post made me laugh.

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  48. CyanaT30 April 2015 at 19:32

    Me, too and in spite of some canon tweaking. At last BL was an interesting story for all that it didn't quite fit in the Supernatural 'verse; it was more or less The Originasl:Chicago.

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  49. CyanaT30 April 2015 at 19:40

    You're right. I intensely disliked this episode but there were enough moments I considered fair to ok that I rated it 'poor'. And that's after giving the last three episodes Great or Awesome even though two of them had characters that usually detract sufficiently from my enjoyment that I give them a lower rating.

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  50. Ceryle30 April 2015 at 20:05

    Yep – like you, I tend to rate towards the middle, with a few exceptions (10x16 comes to mind, unfortunately. Thought I'd erased that.). But I know some fans can see past any bad or ignore any good if a few factors are there (certain characters, pairings and even writers). To be honest, sometimes I wish I had that kind of wholesale enjoyment of the show.

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  51. Sylls30 April 2015 at 20:50

    The SUPERNATURAL's guys, Dean, Sam and Castiel are great, really great boys !!!

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  52. A Bad Person1 May 2015 at 00:41

    I remain pleasantly surprised that Claire has been well-recieved this episode, or, at the very least, it seems that people have warmed up to her. I was honestly expecting an outpouring of hate for her once again. So thank you, to those of you who decided not to refer to her behaviour as 'whining' or being a 'brat', simply deciding to give her a second chance instead - you've restored my faith in humanity, if even just a little.

    I suppose I should also thank a few comments ( at least two, I think) located on this site, stating that they found this episode to be more boring, or at least equal to the infamous 'Bloodlines'. That gave me a good chuckle because I find it almost impossible to believe.

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  53. julio1 May 2015 at 00:56

    Lol when I binge watched all the seasons of spn to catch up for this season I skipped bloodlines. Hopefully I didn't miss anything lol.

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  54. Mel1 May 2015 at 01:48

    Yet another disappointing season ten episode. I am soooo over this Claire crap and really hope this is the last we see her, even if she wasn't as obnoxious this week.

    Between demon Dean and the Mark of Cain storylines, this season should have been epic but sadly ranks right down there with season seven for me. I think I'd rather deal with the Levi's again than this poorly written drivel.

    Here's hoping they get new writers and get this show back on track so I'm actually looking forward to it again. At this point, I'm fed up with plot holes and unnecessary characters. This season had loads of potential and they squandered it.

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  55. spnmonster1 May 2015 at 11:14

    At first I thought it was a djinn because that's their MO. I don't understand why it needed to be some new kind of angel. This writing team baffles me--reapers are now angels, grigori have taken the place of djinn. What next?

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  56. spnmonster1 May 2015 at 11:16

    I agree completely about the second half. Why did the MotW need to be an angel when djinn are already in the show's lore? And yes, to everything else too.

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  57. spnmonster1 May 2015 at 11:28

    I agree. If Dean's comment this week were a singular event, I wouldn't think much of it. However, there's been a pattern of statements that have not only diminished Sam's importance in saving the world but have suggested that he alone started the apocalypse in the first place.

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  58. spnmonster1 May 2015 at 11:46

    At least S7 had a lot of Dick ;)

    Seriously though, there was a focus to S7 with the leviathan, and that is lacking this season. There's no antagonist for the guys to work against except themselves, which is an interesting idea, but the writing isn't sophisticated enough to pull that concept together. The episodes feel unrelated much of the time. It doesn't seem as though the writers work together to construct an over-arching narrative.

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  59. Mel1 May 2015 at 13:28

    You made me laugh on a bad morning so I thank you for that. :)

    You are right. There is no focus to season ten. It's just been all over the place. Bringing in both Cole and Claire was unnecessary in my opinion. I know some like Rowena, but I think she belongs on a soap opera with that over-acting. I just want her gone.

    I'm tired of plot holes. I'm mad that they brought in Crowley's time-traveling son at the end of season nine and haven't addressed it. I'm also angry that they never mentioned what happened to the trapped souls on Earth when Metatron was being a great big bag of dicks. I guess we are supposed to assume that Kevin is in Heaven now? We learn that Jimmy and his wife are in Heaven but no mention of Kevin?! WTF?! I honestly couldn't care less about Jimmy, Claire, or his wife.

    After last week's episode, I was hoping they would focus on the Book of the Damned and Sam's lies by omission. Instead we get another useless filler episode. And what was up with Cas saying Dean was out of control? He seemed very controlled to me. An uncontrolled Dean would have beaten that guy into a bloody pulp instead of scaring the bejesus out of him.

    I'm just bummed because I've been watching this show for ten years and I am at a point where I no longer watch it live. Season seven may have been my least favorite (up until now) but at least there were several brilliantly crafted episodes and the writing was consistent.

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  60. T1gerlilly1 May 2015 at 14:10

    See, I thought Dean was talking about how Cas took on Raphael, who with his conspiratorial cabal, was still determined to bring about the apocalypse. Cas lead an army against him, and when that wasn't enough, used Balty to get the weapons he'd stolen and then to try and change fate to get more souls. When Fate threatened to kill the Winchesters if he changed history he abandoned that tactic. He went to Dean to ask for help, but he was with Lisa and he couldn't bear to tear him away from his chance at the picket fence life. Hence working with Crowley to open Purg. OK that idea had definite drawbacks, BUT, what everyone forgets is -it actually did work- Cas was able to defeat Raphael and his legions do angels single handedly. He stopped the apocalypse himself with no help from the Winchesters.
    So, to my mind Sam saved the world in S5 and Cas did in S7. See, no need to fight. TFW ARE ALL AWESOME (if occasionally flawed and capable of some really poor decisions).

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  61. Scully ♥ Mulder1 May 2015 at 14:24

    It's very hypocritical to say that Dean honoring the fact that Cas has in fact saved the world is somehow "rude, disrespectful" to Sam, yet the complete denial of any positive contribution Sam has made in saving the world AND the Winchesters is continually denied/dismissed/ignored by these same fans and that is NOT "rude, disrespectful to Cas."I'd take these complaints a lot more seriously if these fans actually paid attention to all canon, not just the part of canon that suits an often hateful, elitist agenda.

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  62. Scully ♥ Mulder1 May 2015 at 14:25

    It's very hypocritical to say that Dean honoring Castiel's role in saving the world is somehow "rude, disrespectful" to Sam, yet the
    complete denial of any positive contribution Cas has made in saving the
    world AND the Winchesters is continually denied/dismissed/ignored by
    these same fans and that is NOT "rude, disrespectful" to Cas. I'd take
    these complaints a lot more seriously if these fans actually paid
    attention to all canon, not just the part of canon that suits an often
    hateful, elitist agenda.

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  63. Ivana1 May 2015 at 14:32

    Amazing episode. One of my favorite this season.

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  64. beth1 May 2015 at 15:14

    if I may ask how would you have presented this line different. Bear in mind that Robbie wrote Cas Helped And it was changed in performance. So there is no fault of the writer here.

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  65. Scully ♥ Mulder1 May 2015 at 15:17

    FYI: Make sure to FLAG this comment. According to SpoilerTV's comment policy, this kind of hate is not allowed.

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  66. Charlie_Minion1 May 2015 at 15:30

    The episode was written by Robbie Thompson, one of the best writers Supernatural currently has. So how can it be anything less then awesome? The dialogues were perfect. The characterization, the pace, the plot, the humor, the sass, the resolution for two characters who deserved a happy ending (Jimmy & Amelia). Every little second of it was perfect. It made me laugh, it made me cry, it gave me feels. That's what I want from every episode. Bless Robbie Thompson!

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  67. Kat1 May 2015 at 15:43

    Charlie is a lesbian. How on earth could she be a love interest to Sam or Dean?

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  68. jen1 May 2015 at 16:38

    okay I really like Claire and I really liked how she got a moment to interact with everyone in this episode. I also really appreciate how realistic they made her arc this season, with her gradual warming towards them and her mixed feelings toward Castiel because of how much he resembled her dad. She rightly didn't like them and resented/hated them at first and they had to work their way into her good graces. One thing that really bothers me on this show is when new characters (or old ones coming in again) that have no reason to like Sam and Dean (indeed every reason to hate them) just love them to bits at first sight because 'Main Protagonist', so who cares about logic or earning people's good opinion in a realistic way. I loved LOVED that they didn't do that with Claire, and they had to work at it with her. It makes their relationship with her feel much more real and worthwhile to me since they all had to earn it.

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  69. Hikari1 May 2015 at 16:39

    And let's not forget, that since it was Dean's line, shortened 'in performance'. It was more than likely shortened by Jensen, so people need to quit throwing Robbie under the bus

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  70. Hikari1 May 2015 at 16:44

    Cas' purpose has always been Dean. I'd love to see him hang around more, but since they're trying to reduce the UST that inevitably happens when Dean and Cas are in a room together, that's less likely.


    Maybe they can write a plot about the angels getting their wings repaired, and that will keep Cas out of the picture for a while (as usual)

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  71. Hikari1 May 2015 at 16:49

    People are too busy screaming "Sam erasure" to complain about Claire.

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  72. chris6841 May 2015 at 16:59

    I think including the word "helped" would have been fine, and is accurate, as I think I said elsewhere. My initial comment on this thread was written the night the episode aired, before I had heard that Robbie had changed the line. And to be honest, that comment wasn't even a big focus of my post. My opinion on this doesn't change whether it was Robbie, Jensen, the director, or anyone else who made the call.

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  73. Hikari1 May 2015 at 17:03

    I voted this Great instead of Awesome because I watched it on DVR and I had just finished Agents of Shield.
    Gotta say, after watching a well-trained woman do backflips to kick multiple bad-guy booty, the action in the SPN fight sequences were... lackluster. That, and there were a couple of times where Sam and Cas seemed a bit TOO touchy over Dean's actions regarding his control of the MoC.
    And I liked this, I really did, but another POC as the bad guy?

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  74. Ceryle1 May 2015 at 17:18

    Yes, it has always been Dean – but as you said, it's hard to make that play out on screen when they're never in the room together.

    Cas was such a fascinating character when he was first introduced; I'd hate to see him fizzle into uselessness by the end of the series. I'd rather they kill him off / send him back to heaven permanently than have him twiddle away his time with boring C-plots (Season 9, early Season 10). I wouldn't mind reducing his appearances if when he appeared, he was involved with the episode's A-plot (like Seasons 4 and 5). Preferably with the Winchesters. His role in 10x14 and 10x17 was great. More of that.

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  75. beth1 May 2015 at 17:21

    Ok. Let's put aside Swan Song. What about in season 6 when Raphael tried to reopen the cage and jump start the Apocalypse again? Sam and Dean didn't help Cas stop Raphael. He did that all on his own.

    And I don't think telling a greeting team her dad died to save the world is a bad thing. I honestly thought that If Sam was telling the story he would have said the same thing. Sam is very humble. He told Claire why They save people. Just to save people. No fan fare required. I don't think SaM would be angry and I don't think what Dean said erases Sam's contributions. Claire doesn't care about Sam did. He's not important to her. But her dad's death? That's super important to Her. I believe context is everything.

    As it was changed in performance what exactly would be the right course of action? For them to call back up to Vancouver and order a reshoot. What would you have done as Robbie had you seen the dailies and what Jensen/the director sent through as the final cut.

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  76. chris6841 May 2015 at 17:22

    Raising an eyebrow at the comment that people who found the line "disrespectful" to Sam have a "hateful, elitist agenda," considering you chose to draw attention to another post as being against the commenting rules.

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  77. Sally1 May 2015 at 17:22

    I've wanted the Grigori to make an appearance forever, but people are right that they were treated too much like Dijinn. A waste of really really interesting mythology. Sword was bad ass though. Overall I liked the episode, no where near the worst, very entertaining.

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  78. chris6841 May 2015 at 17:33

    You know, if you're looking to start an argument about Cas, you picked the wrong person because I've been a pretty big defender of Cas on this site over the seasons. He's not perfect but he's sympathetic. I just think they got a few things wrong in this episode.


    Also, I give my opinions on episodes quite frequently. They rarely include a request for reshoot. That's not the point of discussing an episode.

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  79. Claudia Toro1 May 2015 at 17:38

    I think this episode have problems yes, was good but have big things to think. I don't mind about Dean saying than Cas saved the world, because is true, Cas help in a lot of things for save the world, for them, not only the Winchesters, so don't be dramatic because Dean try to comfort a girl who lose his dad for this... the problem with the episode is other, the problem is the narrative of timelining and the concern than they put in the situation.

    +Cas talk to Amelia how many time? Sam is trapped and he is unconscious how many time? Dean and Claire do so many things before came to this place. Timeline...

    +A dangerous creature are in that place, why Cas is not more concern about this?

    +The death of Amelia...I understand if she have to die, but in that easy way? it could have been more dramatic.

    +Claire lose his mom, she was stabbed in front his eyes, is okay she is a hard girl, but she maybe need to be more sad about that.

    The episode in general is great. I think the reason behind this chapter was do something good, sadly but beautiful, funny with a happy ending, support the people you care. Not all can be bad in the storyline, Like Jimmy and Amelia being soulmates after she suffer so much and die (this closed the responsability of Castiel about his vessel, do free Claire about his past and resolve the sadness of a Novak family than with time Claire can manage)... I think it was the intention, something good before the chaos, a nice episode before all going to hell. I like it. very easy but I like it. So don't be asshole with Robbie, he has given us great episodes before. Be critic without be a jerk, we are still a spn-family ;) be nice.

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  80. Lucy1 May 2015 at 18:33

    Some of us know enough about the fans who use this website (and asked their friends to come vote down this episode) to know that they definitely do have a "hateful, elitist agenda" that they bring to any comment section where Cas fans are squeeing.

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  81. Lucy1 May 2015 at 18:39

    I'm baffled by the meltdown over what Dean said. Dean was speaking to Claire, about her dad, and about Cas. What do the ESGs expect him to do, say something like, "hey, don't be too hard on your dad or Cas because SAMMEH SAMMEH SAMMEH"? God, get a grip. Why should Dean bang the gong for Sam in this instance? It isn't relevant to the matter at hand, or the person at hand. It was embarrassing to see the flood of hate directed at Robbie Thompson, especially since he confirmed the line was changed during filming and it seems likely Jensen changed it.


    Anyway aside from that, I loved this episode. It had some really lovely moments between Cas and Claire. Cas and Amelia, Dean and Claire, and Sam and Claire. I love that the show is maybe setting Claire up to hunt and that she ended up going to Jodie's. I hope this means we'll see her again in S11.


    The scene with Amelia finding Jimmy waiting for her in their shared Heaven was beautiful. It also made it pretty clear that the Winchesters' separate Heavens in S5 were exactly that: separate Heavens.

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  82. Ashley1 May 2015 at 18:58

    I enjoyed this episode A LOT. It was great writing and I'm glad they finally touched on some loose ends (Jimmy and Amelia, and their ending was BEYOND beautiful), I also loved the Cas love in the episode. I feel like a lot of the time he doesn't get the attention that he deserves (despite what others might complain about, but to be fair he's hardly in episodes despite being a regular), also he brings something extra to these episodes.

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  83. beth1 May 2015 at 19:19

    I'm not trying to start a fight about Cas. But um just saying alot of people are focusing on ONLY Swan Song and not the other times Cas did stuff Himself.

    My question to you regarding the reshoot was very simple. Of you were the writer and the director or actor changed a line as they saw fit, when you saw the dailies what would you have done?

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  84. chris6841 May 2015 at 19:53

    So did you seriously come to a website that you don't usually visit to complain about a meltdown that wasn't happening here (the majority of people who posted in this thread by far weren't even talking about that one line), and to call people names?

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  85. chris6841 May 2015 at 19:55

    Sorry, not in the mood to play "what if" games.

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  86. beth1 May 2015 at 20:05

    It's not a what if game. It's simply how criticism is supposed to work. A person critically assessment a work or action and then offers how they would have made it better. That generally put them in the mind set of the person making the decision in the first place and often times the offending decision become clear.

    That's why asking what you would have done. Not to play a what if but for those making crisis to offer a solution. If you are going to be a critic without offering a solution and how you would fix the issue then it's just pointless and blowing hot air. And this is not just about media but life in general.

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  87. Cooper1 May 2015 at 20:14

    I just really, really loved this episode. It was beautiful, emotional, poignant, and everyone was involved in a really great manner. Can't wait to rewatch!

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  88. Cooper1 May 2015 at 20:15

    "Castiel is there in the same building" He was in the barn, Sam was in the house.

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  89. Cooper1 May 2015 at 20:16

    All three of them, plus Bobby, saved the world. And Dean was considering his audience - of course he's going to talk about Cas and Jimmy when speaking about it to Claire, which was the right move on his part.

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  90. chris6841 May 2015 at 20:18

    Uhm. No. I already answered your question about what a better line would be. I said the leaving in the word "help" would have made it accurate. In terms of what would be appropriate in terms of damage control after the fact - I have no idea because I don't work in the TV industry and don't know what costs would be involved.


    Here's a counter lesson on criticism of any kind of creative product - it exists and it is healthy. Whether it's art, theater, a movie, a tv show - people who create it want people to be talking about it afterward, because that means they were engaged enough to care. Sometimes the discussion is positive, sometimes it's negative. People can have an opinion on a piece of art without having a plan to fix it. In fact, I'd argue that the SPN fandom having the idea that it's their job to try to fix something that doesn't belong to them is a big part of the problem.

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  91. Ginger1 May 2015 at 22:08

    What? See above..."who CANNOT possibly be love interests for the Winchesters"

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  92. Ginger1 May 2015 at 22:27

    Robbie's tweet said 'in filming;' not 'in filming.' Just clarifying here.


    As for the entire argument, stopping the Apocalypse was an effort by all of TFW. I don't see why what Dean said to Claire is such a major debate. It diminishes none of the characters or what they did, and there are a whole lot more and bigger canon errors that that one in this episode.

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  93. Hollowers2 May 2015 at 06:04

    Rthompson Quote: As scripted, "Cas was able to HELP save the world," y'all. Got changed on the day in performance, but still works. #CalmDown #Supernatural Robbie did not make the change. Either Jensen or the director made that call. Clearly "helped" is a weaker endorsement of the role Cas played and the point was to reaffirm that her dad had not left for no good reason.

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  94. chris6842 May 2015 at 11:38

    Yes, I understood that. That was a typo/ mistake in my previous comment, but I got the gist.

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  95. Ambar Moreno Candelas2 May 2015 at 14:14

    AWESOME! :D But I don´t like Claire...

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  96. norah mackenzie2 May 2015 at 16:23

    i think that the whole issue was that jimmy novak gave up his vessel and his family for castiel to use and for dean to acknowledge that sacrifice to jimmy's novak especially since she is all alone with the death of her mother was so true and frankly it acknowledges that cas has done a lot for the world as well. nice ending to jimmy's story

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  97. norah mackenzie2 May 2015 at 16:26

    i think that because so many pple were upset and angry with robbie and made sure he knew abt that one line - because robbie t has always been a great writer as compared to many others and he didnt deserve all the wank he got and i loved the episode

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  98. Stephanie2 May 2015 at 16:42

    This is one of my issues with the stable of writers for Supernatural. (I loved the episode BTW) The writing continuity is often uneven in characterization, motivation and mindset from week to week because of the different writing styles and interpretation from each writer. They don't seem to have someone overseeing the scripts to keep the flow of mindset & characterization of characters from episode to episode. Not really one to call for the firing of people but if I had the power to do so, I would pare the writing team (I have a pair in mind) and have a Head Writer to oversee all scripts.

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  99. chris6842 May 2015 at 17:13

    Serious question for anyone here who said they were comfortable with the statement, "Cas saved the world." Are you equally comfortable with the statements "Cas started the apocalypse" and "Dean started the apocalyspe"?


    I'm asking because both were team efforts, but in both cases Sam played the more prominent role. With starting the apocalypse, Sam broke the last seal, but Dean broke the first, and Cas let Sam out of the panic room and detained Dean, knowing at that point that the angels wanted Sam to kill Lilith to start the apocalypse.

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  100. Kat2 May 2015 at 21:54

    Wow. I can't believe I misread that twice. Ignore me.

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  101. Audrey2 May 2015 at 23:21

    Well, it took me a while before watching this episode because I really hated the two previous episodes featuring Claire. After this one, I still don't like her, she is still in my eyes a know-it-all-annoying-teenage-girl and I don't care about teen drama.
    But still, I liked the episode, I released the novaks family needed closure but I truly hope we won't heard about them anymore.
    Something bothered me in this episode (besides "Cass was able to save the world") and it's something that keeps happening again ans again these last 3 seasons: I hate when two supposed very good hunter and an angel have to be saved by the guest of the week. The 3 of them would be long dead without the guests. In my eyes it's lousy writing, it wasn't happening in Kripke and Gamble's area (or very rarely)and I wish it could stop.
    I must add I am very tired of the fights in this fandom, it's toxic and takes away the pleasure I used to have.
    We are all allowed to have opinions, to love, like, dislike or hate an episode, there is no need to be this upset because not everyone share the same point of view.

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  102. chris6843 May 2015 at 00:38

    I'm glad you posted that. People used to say that they came to this site to get away from a lot of the fighting that was at other sites. I hope that's still the case? We have a lot of different opinions, but in general I think people around here are pretty good about being polite and respectful.

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  103. Restless3 May 2015 at 01:11

    Meh, I really don't think it's comparable. For one thing giving credit is different from blame assignment. You don't have to be blamed for something to get credit for doing something good. Giving credit isn't a bad thing (especially when comforting a dead man's kid). Credit can be given freely, or at least moreso than blame should be. Sam saved the world. Dean saved the world. Bobby saved the world. Jimmy saved the world. Death saved the world. Castiel saved the world. Everyone look under your seats! That's right. You saved the world.

    The reason to assign blame is to allow characters to correct their mistakes and make things right again, to earn redemption. Sam was to blame for the Apocalypse, but he redeemed himself. I can blame Cas and Dean for a lot of things (and I think they've also pretty much redeemed themselves for their biggest mistakes) but the Apocalypse isn't really one of those.
    Especially when the actions and motivations are so different between the characters.

    Like opening a door.... is kinda lol. That would have literally been any other angel if Cas hadn't, and Cas would have likely been dead for disobeying again. I don't blame Cas for opening a door, no sorry (or even Bobby for letting Sam walk out that door instead of stopping him, or Dean for not stopping Sam after he met up with Sam at the end of that episode... lots of stuff happened in between that door opening and Sam killing Lilith).

    I can't really blame Cas or Dean for following orders under threat of further torture either. Meanwhile Sam drank demon blood and went after Lilith because he was power hungry, which frankly is not quite so sympathetic. Everyone including Cas had told Sam not to, and even Sam's fever dreams/unconsciousness in that episode was telling him not to do it.

    If we start going "oh he opened a door he's equally to blame for the Apocalypse"... might as well say, "oh random babysitter x didn't smother Dean and Sam as babies, so they're also to the blame for the Apocalypse"... There's a definite difference and the butterfly effect only matters so much. Convicts released from prison might commit crimes, but it's still the convicts fault when they do it the guards don't get blamed and charged alongside the convicts.

    Plus the show didn't end in season 5, world saving happened after the Apocalypse and Castiel had a huge role to play in those world savings too. Don't you think Sam had a role to play in saving the world after season 5? I mean, if Dean hadn't stopped him he even maybe could have shut the gates in season 8.

    And this conversation is ignoring the fact that Dean was reassuring a dead man's kid that they didn't need to hold onto a grudge. Talking up someone's contributions isn't a bad thing, especially in that case. If you want to blame Cas and Dean alongside Sam, your choice. In my opinion, the blame for starting the Apocalypse is separate from who should be credited for saving the world. I can chose not to blame them all for the Apocalypse while still giving them all credit for saving the world.

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  104. chris6843 May 2015 at 01:48

    This is an interesting response, because while I tend to agree with your point that it's okay if Dean was just talking up the point to comfort a kid, I think the idea of assigning blame for the apocalypse is much more complicated because they were all being manipulated by the angels.

    IMO, Sam's mistakes could be divided Into a few categories. There was working with a demon, which violated the family trust given the history with their mother, which I think was the biggest one at the time and the part that Dean focused on most. Working with demons is commonplace now, but it wasn't then. There was starting the apocalypse, which was caused by killing Lilith. But Sam was being lied to by both Ruby and the angels, so he had no idea he was starting the apocalypse by killing a demon. There was drinking the blood/ killing the nurse, but that was fueled by a mix of motivations- some noble (a desire to stop the apocalypse and save demon-possessed people), and some about rebelling against Dean and his pride.

    On the other hand, Dean broke under torture, but he was in hell because of his own weakness - that he couldnt accept the natural death of a family member. Cas didn't just innocently open a door. He knew Sam was drinking demon blood and the angels wanted him to start the apocalypse and he was purposely letting him loose so he could break the last seal. So all of their contributions were caused by some form of weakness, but none had evil intent.

    Anyway, I'm not trying to argue, just wanted to share my thoughts.

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  105. Audrey3 May 2015 at 07:08

    Yes it is usually the case, I like it here. Unfortunately there are some subjects we can't talk without bringing the fighters and it gets ugly fast.
    I am just very tired of all these fights.

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  106. June Smitt4 May 2015 at 22:32

    http://www.spoilertv.com/2014/08/reader-popularity-episode-tables-201415.html
    It's incredibly funny picture. And it's shameful a little. All episodes from 1 to 19 keep range between 200 - 600 but Angel Heart has grabbed around 4000. Honestly for the first day of poll this episode had been given around 300 votes and many people voted for 'Awful'. But a day later the minions had found out about it and they had considered it a personal challenge! If someone suddenly dislike the episode where precious, wonderful, adorable, matchless angel is presented they should be protect him in front of the rest of the unjust fandom! Literally two hours later the results changed suddenly. The minions have had to vote plenty that the percentages in the column "Awful" put down to an acceptable level. Neither one episode of SPN or other show had been given so many votes here - isn't it funny? As a result we have a distorted picture of 'choice' of SPN' viewers

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