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SpoilerTV - TV Spoilers

POLL : What did you think of Supernatural - The Werther Project?

Apr 23, 2015

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57 comments:

  1. Ambar Moreno CandelasApril 23, 2015 at 3:06 AM

    AWESOME EPISODE!!! :D ♥ TENSION... TOO MUCH TENSION!! Rowena in the bed LOL but don´t touch my Sammy b****!! Glad to see Benny again :) Pure again hehehe :P Haha Dean and the fridge xD And Sammy please save your brother!!!! I LOVE Sammy in the end with Rowena!! Sammy was great!! :D

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  2. BoxManLockeApril 23, 2015 at 3:11 AM

    Best part of the episode was Rowena getting chained up.

    They still managed to make most of the episode about Dean. The mark allows him to handle several vampires at once (let's forget the incident with the Stynes last week), and to break free of very powerful enchantments. Plus, he's perfectly fine mentally.
    So excuse me if, once again, I don't see any urgency in removing the mark. I'd even argue Dean should keep it.

    Magnus' spell would have been pretty interesting as a standalone story, or if it was part of a larger story involving the MoL. But it was kinda ruined to serve the uninteresting mark storyline.

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  3. BrittneyAngel2010 .April 23, 2015 at 3:12 AM

    I usually do not fall for writer's 'tricks' but I will admit that I did not see the Rowena hallucination coming until she vanished. I usually see through that kind of stuff so even if I am the only one who was fooled...kudos.

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  4. chris684April 23, 2015 at 3:26 AM

    Very nice episode. It flowed well and it was well done with blending the illusion with what we were seeing. Both Sam and Dean were in character. How often does that happen? Also, this is two weeks in a row with a strong Sam POV. When was the last time that happened? Season 4 maybe?

    My one nitpickk (because I have to have one) is that the bright lights and colors were bugging me - especially during the first half. For something so emotional for one of our boys, a treatment more subdued and haunting would have been more impactful. My second nitpick (because I can never have just one) is that Sam didn't try to break in the door when the woman was in trouble. That's Winchester Hunting 101.

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  5. chris684April 23, 2015 at 3:30 AM

    I hate to say it, but I think this is headed in a direction of where Sam's actions in trying to save Dean are what dooms him. It doesn't follow logic-wise that Dean should be able to manage this, but I have a feeling that's the story we'll be left with.

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  6. BoxManLockeApril 23, 2015 at 3:50 AM

    I agree. Crowley's murder being the first part of Caïn's "prophecy" could lead in interesting directions.
    The thing is I'm not particularly thrilled to begin a season 4 remake. I'll only be satisfied when the show gets out of this cycle and starts to tell stories without the brothers having to sacrifice themselves for each other again and again. Unfortunately, with Carverin charge, it might never happen.

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  7. lala2April 23, 2015 at 3:56 AM

    Well, I thought Sam was written horribly in this episode but what else is new w/Carver. I did like the twist though. That was pretty good b/c I was actually surprised.

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  8. RobanahApril 23, 2015 at 4:13 AM

    Wait... So was Rowena actually there, or was that an illusion???? If she was there, she seemed to really enjoy watching Sam bleed! They did make a good team, and I love what he did to her at the end! Crowley ain't going to be too happy lol Either that, or he'll find her and say "I told you so" Not really looking forward to next week, but episode 21 sounds really good

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  9. KatherineApril 23, 2015 at 4:40 AM

    Why did u think he was written horribly besides not kicking the door down.

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  10. HellboyApril 23, 2015 at 5:05 AM

    The Styne's was a different situation. He was unprepared and in a situation where he could have died if he fought back right away.

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  11. lala2April 23, 2015 at 5:05 AM

    Ugh . . . . don't remind me about that door scene. That was ridiculous. They didn't even let him attempt to kick down the door. He just stood outside, calling her name?!?!?! Argh!!



    I also hated how he didn't seem to care too much that he got that woman killed. He just shrugged it off. I didn't like how he knew nothing about that box, what it contained or how it worked. When Dean was reaming him out about it, I found myself echoing Dean's comments. Sam came off like a very incompetent hunter to me. Even when he was searching for the box, he was stumbling around and making a bunch of noise. My sister and I just kept wondering why he was being written that way!

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  12. CyanaTApril 23, 2015 at 5:12 AM

    I think Rowena in the former MoL "St Louis Chapter House" was an illusion but I have to rewatch. Sam was obsessively focused on doing the counter spell correctly that I it was all him who translated what was needed to break the deadly ward on the Werther Box. Sam isn't totally stupid though when he showed up with 'witch chains'. I like the episode - loved Dean's Purgatory hallucination and how he was able to break the suicide spell himself.

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  13. HellboyApril 23, 2015 at 5:38 AM

    You also gotta remember that Suzie was a disturbed woman with a gun, who was firing it blindly. Kicking the door, probably would have lead to Sam getting shot.

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  14. MatthewApril 23, 2015 at 5:45 AM

    That's the problem with the need for Cliffhangers and a cast that is essentially 2 characters big. When a show has gone this long, you are always going to get recycling of story types.

    I actually enjoyed the Dean not dying/becoming a Demon because it kinda broke the Cycle.. Dean wasnt dead but funnily Sam still had to go to the same lengths to make him Dean again.

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  15. CeryleApril 23, 2015 at 6:14 AM

    This episode flew by, which is usually a good sign. Fascinating look at Dean and Sam's psyches. On the one hand, you have Dean finally seeing that his plan to have Sam and Cas kill him off isn't a good one for them. It's exactly what his dad asked him to do for Sam back in Season 2, and that burden drove him to dark, tired places. He knows he can't ask that of anyone else. And since the Mark won't let Dean kill himself, his only option is to keep fighting it. Dean doesn't give up lightly; he's always been a fighter. But somehow this feels a little different than earlier seasons. Almost more optimistic, in some kind of twisted way.

    Then there's Sam. Gah, Sam. The line about (paraphrased) "not caring if other people die, as long as you two make it out alive" – that's really troubling, and it digs at the heart of the brothers' codependency and the problems it's created over the years, not just for Sam and Dean, but also for other people. The collateral damage. Marshall Hall, for example (Faith, Season 1). Or more vaguely, all the people who would have been saved had Sam finished the third trial. I hope the writers don't drop this train of thought or backtrack like they did when the codependency issue reared its head in Season 9.


    Sam's hallucination also had shades of Season 7, when Lucifer tried to convince Sam to end it. And Lucifer's line that the hallucination had to be complex – otherwise Sam wouldn't believe it was real. Still true. The Rowena illusion was well done.


    But I don't think Sam needed any kind of illusion to do what he did. Hallucination or otherwise, if he knew the box required a blood sacrifice, he'd give it without a second thought. And that's the problem, even though it's what we love about the brothers. The symbolism of him and Dean sharing the sacrifice – but both living through it – was powerful.


    Please stop lying, Sammy.

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  16. sharonallyApril 23, 2015 at 7:46 AM

    More than likely even when he is not wrong he is wrong. Cue season 10 where Sam must go out and destroy himself to save Dean because he was guilty of not loving what Dean did to him last year.

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  17. MissDaisy1776April 23, 2015 at 7:50 AM

    Sorry to say but Dean is ABSOLUTELY CORRUPTED by the MoC... saying his perception is clouded or even blinded by the SIMPLE fact the MoC will sabotage and interfere all actions towards it's own existence.... geez don't you listen what is sayed... paraphrasing Crowley "The Marc will protect itself and it's bearier" meaning every action done to remove and eliminate the marc will be seen as a threat to its own existence. Dean is NOT mentally fine at all... his actions are the actions of the MoC...sorry to say...he lost the battle... and that is what Sam is saying when he mentions that Dean isn't fine at all and that it's getting worse... Dean is now a real psychopath...

    Defintion psychopath: " psychopathy consists of a specific set of personality traits and
    behaviors. Superficially charming, psychopaths tend to make a good first
    impression on others and often strike observers as remarkably normal.
    Yet they are self-centered, dishonest and undependable, and at times
    they engage in irresponsible behavior for no apparent reason other than
    the sheer fun of it. Largely devoid of guilt, empathy and love, they
    have casual and callous interpersonal and romantic relationships.
    Psychopaths routinely offer excuses for their reckless and often
    outrageous actions, placing blame on others instead. They rarely learn
    from their mistakes or benefit from negative feedback, and they have
    difficulty inhibiting their impulses." Scientific American

    So excuse me... there is an urgencie to get rid of the MoC...just because one can't see the illness doesn't mean there is no illness... and here lies the dilemma except for Sam & Crowley, they are the only ones that can SEE & FEEL the EVIL demonic transformation that the MoC is doing to Dean... all others just see a "heroic" figure and because of their LACK of KNOWING what truley is going on, therefor question and condemn Sams actions trying to save his brother... Knowledge is power or Ingnorence is bliss...

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  18. chris684April 23, 2015 at 10:49 AM

    I'm very wary of where this Sam storyline is going because I also expect Sam to be throw under the bus again, but I'm feeling ok with the last couple of episodes, because I thought they showed that Sam doesn't trust Rowena. It's a move made of resigned respiration that he's expecting to go badly - which is why he's not telling Dean. It's not necessarily the most heroic move ever, but it's felt believable so far. With that said, I'm taking each week as they come because I know from past experience it won't take long before I'm back here ranting again.

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  19. fazziemodoApril 23, 2015 at 11:26 AM

    Sorry but both boys have fit that definition all the way back since season 1 and neither have gotten any better.


    They haven't shown the urgency to get rid because Dean has only really lost control once with Claire's adopted Dad and that was when he was whacked in the head. So really we've seen it once and that is the problem. There is subtle and there is none existent and what we have outside Randy and the rapey loansharks is Dean's worry and one nightmare that Sam has been privy to and with the life the guys have had you would be surprised it they hadn't been doing that.


    All the rest this season, not much difference than business as usual just Dean is admitting he is into it, but he kind of admitted that with purgatory in season 8 and that was pre mark - it was pure for him. And actually apart from not telling them about what Cain told him, how has Dean been dishonest with Cas and Sam? He has admitted every impulse he has had and admits if they get the better of him it is because he can't fight them anymore. To me that isn't much on the excuses but they haven't shown that the impulses Dean has had since season 1 much more hyped up. As for tonight - sure we got him 6 on one. But Vamp Dean took on a much larger nest on his own and we've seen him take on larger groups on his own when he possibly could have tried to run (run in at Cain's). Taken on angels and mouthed off to a roomful of gods and survived purgatory.


    Pre Demon Dean showed the power of the mark better with regard to Dean losing it.


    I do agree with the knowledge being power thing but having Sam continually say without having Dean just be a little more gung ho plays just as much into Sam going overboard as much as Dean actually being affected by the mark in the manner Sam is saying. There is nothing more dangerous than a little knowledge and have you ever heard of a self fulfilling prophecy? Dean went over board when his Dad died, when Bobby died when Kevin died, sure if someone is killed because of him and the mark you really think he wouldn't go that way too, especially if that person was killed trying to help him? Which Sam's behaviour does seem to be the set up for.

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  20. chris684April 23, 2015 at 11:28 AM

    That's an interesting interpretation. This episode is one that deserves a rewatch from the perspective that the spirit/curse is affecting them from early on.

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  21. chris684April 23, 2015 at 11:34 AM

    I got the feeling watching the episode that Dean suspected what Sam was doing but the mark wanted to see it play out. Instead of protective Dean, we got a Dean with a mark that wanted Sam to decode the book and do evil things.

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  22. fazziemodoApril 23, 2015 at 11:39 AM

    The book is in a warded box and miles away from Dean when opened so how would the mark know if Sam is still saying he burnt it?


    I took it as Dean wanting to make peace with Sam for the vamp nest plus find out what Sam is up too.


    Dean isn't stupid, Sam going on a case that cold would probably be seen as Sam going after something that could help with the mark especially if it is the men of letters mess dealing with Magnus. If so he'd want to see what it was and if it worked great but if it didn't he might be able to feed the thing if there is some violence about.

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  23. chris684April 23, 2015 at 11:57 AM

    "I took it as Dean wanting to make peace with Sam for the vamp nest plus find out what Sam is up too."


    I think that's what we're supposed to think, but I got the feeling there was something else going on. Getting back to the split-Dean analogy, good Dean wants to believe what Sam is saying, but Dark/MoC Dean feels the book and knows it's plotting something bad.

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  24. malooseApril 23, 2015 at 11:59 AM

    I didn't like this episode, it was so strange!
    - If the box could be open that easily, how come MoL couldn't do it? And how Magnus thought witches couldn't open it, they just needed to sacrifice a couple of MoL. (I know later there were wiped by Abaddon but at the time Magnus didn't know it.)
    - How Sam could act this amateur, he didn't even try to read the writing on the box first time, he just went with what Rowena had advised!!!!
    - How Dean is this slow in reading his brother? He doesn't even question what was the book and why Sam was this eager to fetch it. (That's our responsibility line doesn't cut it, they know each other better than that.) He just kept apologizing to Sam over and over! I couldn't get what the last apology was for!
    - I can't believe the Rowena we've seen so far, always ready with spell and hex bags, that following spell he put on Crowley, and many more, can be this docile now. It doesn't add up to the character. Am I supposed to be worried about her schemes and wait for her strike or am I supposed to think she suddenly got down-powered for the sake of plot?!


    On the plus site, we could see more of Magnus. That actor/character could handle being the big baddie, and a chilly one. Unfortunately they just keep the annoying Rowena and their bunch of shallow and weak fanfavorites.
    Also I liked the honesty the brothers had with their figment of imaginations.

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  25. lala2April 23, 2015 at 12:14 PM

    If I felt Dean were actually in harm b/c of the Mark, if I felt Dean were struggling w/it and that it presented a real problem like Sam being soulless did, then I would understand Sam being desperate enough to search out Rowena but that's simply not the case. Yes, the MOC is a problem, but Dean appears to be handling it quite well. Dean has it under control so I just wish other avenues had been explored before Sam went to Rowena. If they had shown Sam speaking to others . . . something.



    What it boils down to is the MOC story has been a bust, IMO. All the characters are worried about it, and I honestly don't know why.

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  26. lala2April 23, 2015 at 12:24 PM

    There is subtle and there is none existent and what we have outside
    Randy and the rapey loansharks is Dean's worry and one nightmare that
    Sam has been privy to and with the life the guys have had you would be
    surprised it they hadn't been doing that. Because Dean attacked the
    rapey crew . . .

    This! This is the main problem w/the MOC story: it's non-existent. There is no story. I haven't seen Dean do one thing w/the Mark that he has not done w/o it.

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  27. fazziemodoApril 23, 2015 at 12:28 PM

    If there is anything else going on I'd put it down more to the who 'the universe telling us we are stronger together' bit. If Sam is on a case, he wants to be there.


    But for Dean. he thinks the book is gone, so Sam going off on his own is either he is losing faith in working with Dean after Dean rushed in on his own without him or is up to something to do with the mark - either way Dean or MoC Dean wouldn't like that.



    As for the book, if MoC feels the book in anything other than in close proximity he'd have been crawling the second Charlie got the thing out of the tomb in Spain. I think the close proximity thing and the fact the book is in the warded box has to play into Dean not climbing the walls.


    If it is meant to be the beginnings of sending him over the edge they should have thrown in a line about how Dean has been finding the need to take the edge off and it has been getting worse lately for some reason.

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  28. fazziemodoApril 23, 2015 at 12:34 PM

    The only thing I can see since Dean became a demon is this, Sam and Cas running around pandering to how big and bad the mark is when Dean right now is dealing and he is pretty much doing okay.


    Yes it isn't good, not saying it is but it seems more that it is that people are pushing and telling everyone that it is bad so causing it to become a self fulfilling prophecy. Cain cooled things until a horde of demons turned up at his door ready to kill, so he defended himself.


    It was then he seemed to decide to say 'fuck it, they say I am a monster, I'll be the damn monster you say I am'

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  29. janeApril 23, 2015 at 1:15 PM

    It looked to me like the door was being held closed by magic of some sort because as soon as she shot herself it opened on its on.

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  30. chris684April 23, 2015 at 1:32 PM

    It's not that he couldn't break through with force that's bothering me. It's that he didn't even try.

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  31. BrittneyAngel2010 .April 23, 2015 at 4:28 PM

    1) The men of letters did not understand how to open it and it caused them to hallucinate so figuring it out when you can't see what is real is hard.
    2) Sam's magical knowledge is not as good as Rowena so he was deferring to the 'expert'. He had a plan & he did not want to take chance of screwing it up by doing something else.
    3) Sam was on a time crunch when he first approached the box. Dean was stalling Susie until she pulled a gun on Dean & demanded Sam come up. Sam was feeling pressured.
    4) Sam never told Dean he was there to 'fetch' anything. Sam said he was there to get rid of something the Men Of Letters created that causes damage and needed to be destroyed. So according to that lie.... Sam could easily have had no knowledge of what exactly that 'MoL thing' was or that anything was in it.
    5) Rowena underestimated Sam and was so distracted by the Codex that she has desperately wanted since she killed the other witch that she even almost forgot that the Codex was supposed to have been retrieved to help Dean. Anyone can have an off day.

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  32. JJ THE EXPATApril 23, 2015 at 4:50 PM

    I voted okay because they actually (sort of) got back to doing what this show is suppose to be about which is dealing with scary supernatural occurrences and not the soap drama it has become. Also the threat in this episode reminded us once again that a demonic threat is actually suppose to be scary, not a comic relief like Crowley or the demons (lately).

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  33. stargoopApril 23, 2015 at 5:34 PM

    So after letting Satan loose because he put his trust in a demon instead of working with Dean, he looks for the most evil black witch he can find and forces her (really did anyone believe that she staying with the book wasn't just where she wanted to be)to study the most powerful book of black magic he can find...oh and did I mention instead of working with his brother?? Speaking of no effort to open the door he doesn't even make the effort to use the codec to translate the book himself. The stupidity and lack of growth that has been written into Sam's character recreating the same mistake over and over again for so many seasons is just lazy writing. "Anything's worth it as long as you two make it out alive"(Sam's guilt).

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  34. lala2April 23, 2015 at 5:55 PM

    Sadly, I can't argue w/you. I'm not sure why Sam is being written this way. The writing for Sam makes no sense to me. I just know a huge bus is headed straight for Sam - AGAIN - in the near future. Haha!

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  35. lala2April 23, 2015 at 6:02 PM

    Now his desperation seems out of the blue. I think they also made a mistake in not showing Dean slowly and progressively slip back into being a demon over the season, by doing occasional bad things.

    Oh, I couldn't agree more w/you on this. There has been no build up to this story. As you said, all we've seen is Sam looking worried and researching. He went from that to making deals w/the devil's witch mother?!?!? Huh? And Dean . . . he is just now doing hunts to ward off whatever he's feeling from the Mark?!?! The pacing is simply awful IMO.

    I'm interpreting the "bad man" theme as being more about how Sam sees himself, rather than how Dean (or we the audience) should see him.

    Hmmm . . . I don't know about that. Carver did say the season would have the audience questioning who was the bigger monster: Sam or Dean. I thought they were referencing Lester, but that whole "bigger monster" thing has been brought up again by Carver and Co. I expect Sam to be the "bigger monster" of course so I'm not really looking forward to him being thrown under the bus again.
    JMO though.

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  36. chris684April 23, 2015 at 6:23 PM

    Let me clarify. Nine times out of ten I hate what Carver says. I've also found that what he says has little to do with what actually appears in the show. So for now, I'm focusing on what I've seen in recent episodes, and only that. When I was talking about the "bad man" theme, I was specifically referring to the song last week. It's how Sam sees himself based on his past and upbringing, and I expect his sense of self esteem will play into his decisions.

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  37. chris684April 23, 2015 at 6:29 PM

    And Dean chooses to put his trust into the king of hell, the father of murder, one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, a vampire who keeps bringing up his struggles with staying on the wagon, angels after he's discovered they're most often "dicks." This is the company they keep. It's not realistic to expect that Dean can associate with anyone he wants but Sam needs to get Dean's permission first.

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  38. sammy.wApril 23, 2015 at 7:05 PM

    Awesome episode I really like it.Dean is really in trouble i mean the way he was acting after killing those vamps it was like he enjoyed it too much!!!Now i can see it , the MOC is really changing him.

    Both Sam and Dean illusions were well written. We finally find out that what is really going on boys mind .Sam knows that in order to save Dean he will sacrifice other humans life and his soul and he's gonna do it anyway i mean the old Sam would've felt guilty for Suzie's death but this Sam didn't even care! Sam is really going dark and I'm so worried about him.Also Dean knows that his backup plan is not gonna work and i think deep down he believed in Cain's prophecy so I wont be surprised if in last episodes of the season he will run off and get away from Sam and Cas for their safety.
    I didnt have a problem with Sam going to Rowena for help because i knew she is the only one who can crack the book of damned but i was worried that the writers show him like a fool who can trust Rowena so i'm glad that they didn't!

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  39. GingerApril 24, 2015 at 12:01 AM

    I agree with you on this one, chris684. I thought Dean looked a little manic in the vampire killing scene, and I think that he is on to Sam. I took his 'apologies' as giving Sam two openings to fess up, and that feeling comes from the look he gave Sam in the car in the beginning and the last scene about being stronger together. I've seen both of those looks before, especially the last one, which reminded me of Dean's vampire cure in Twi Hard after he knew Sam had fed him to Boris.

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  40. kerindaApril 24, 2015 at 2:09 AM

    the Ending was the best part of the Ep love the Ending the rest well...... Ok!

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  41. kerindaApril 24, 2015 at 2:17 AM

    now you know why I stop watching the show the Writing for Sam Sucks and I can't stand it anymore but the Ending was cool but other the that. TWD was on another network so.

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  42. CyanaTApril 24, 2015 at 4:09 AM

    Still I really enjoyed this episode and loved how Sam and Dean were written. I thought it was clever having Werther realise Sam wouldn't kill himself until he thought it would save others, and then manipulating him with that. It was very true to Sam and a good callback to Sam's actions in Sacrifice.
    It also tied in the Sam's telling Charlie in 10.18 that he was still ok with dying for the cause.

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  43. CyanaTApril 24, 2015 at 4:40 AM

    Lately (the several episodes with respect to Sam's newly active storyline) I found my thinking of what Bela told Dean in S3 BDABR "We're all going to Hell, Dean, we might as well enjoy the ride". I agree that Sam will likely be run above by the bus again but at least I'm enjoying what's on my tv now. At least Sam's doing something now besides worried looks.
    And we actually did see movement of the MoC storyline with Dean's solo kills of the Vamp Nest - he was enjoying it just a little too much. I can envision if the season had about 6 episodes left instead of 4 Dean going off on his on to kill 'things' - to feed the Mark - and maybe Dean would need to kill more and more and more until the Mark controlled him and not the other way around.
    I totally agree that both brothers storylines have languished a bit for a stretch of episodes.

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  44. CeryleApril 24, 2015 at 5:18 AM

    Thank you! There's just so much to work through... the more I think and read about the episode, the more I appreciate how complex it was thematically, how many parallels and callbacks were running throughout. (And it was humorous, too, somehow, despite the whole suicide thing.) Obviously, not perfect, but I haven't dwelt on an episode this deeply in a long time, and that counts for a lot. I love you, Berens. You can stay.

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  45. ivanApril 24, 2015 at 1:12 PM

    AWESOME EPISODE!!!!!!!!!!!!! loved seeing Benny back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! even if it wasn't really Benny and i DID NOT see Rowena being an illusion AT ALL, that surprised me

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  46. joawApril 24, 2015 at 9:31 PM

    I too was surprised with two episodes in a row where Sam POV is prominent. Could it be that the writer are listening to some of us finally, or is it just the end of the season thing? I am hoping Sam doesn't get thrown under the bus. I am fine with him doing drastic things to save Dean; but please don't make him stupid or weak because the one thing Sam is, is smart and loyal.
    The next episode looks like a rehash though: Sam getting knocked over and Dean or Claire saving the day. Hopefully, I am proven wrong like I was in "Book of the Damned". Really hoping for the old Sam to be back (along with his old hair :) ). I am really not digging the hair this season.

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  47. chris684April 24, 2015 at 11:09 PM

    I don't like the hair either.

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  48. joawApril 25, 2015 at 7:13 AM

    May it be so. The hair, not the darkness perhaps. :)

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  49. lala2April 25, 2015 at 4:09 PM

    Haha!! You know I love TWD. That is such an excellent show.

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  50. lala2April 25, 2015 at 4:14 PM

    I hear you. I'm glad you're enjoying the show. I can't say the same for myself. The shows just aren't that engaging to me, and the writing is far too subtle for my taste.

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  51. SyllsApril 25, 2015 at 7:09 PM

    Really good episode!!!!.... I like DEAN very much

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  52. kerindaApril 26, 2015 at 1:19 AM

    Yes its on at the same time on My network TV so I go back ad forth but if I am pissed with Spn I just watch TWD instead.

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  53. CyanaTApril 26, 2015 at 9:15 PM

    It's the pleasure to read such a well constructed and written post. Sam is not the only brother lying; Dean has not told Cas and Sam Cain's words but this 'secret' is weighing on him, too, or his Benny/Werther hallucination would have brought it up. I've watched both 10.18/10.19 multiple times now (and 10.17) and it thrills me that the show is returning to 'thinky' episodes ... ones that keep you up at night pondering.

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  54. CyanaTApril 26, 2015 at 9:26 PM

    Yes, that, too. Even Sam's not that suicidal :). And on re-watches I also think ghost!Suzie was just the first Werther hallucination and when that didn't work Werther constructed the 'Rowena Hallucination' to come to Sam's rescue and help him defuse the box to get the Codex. to save Dean.

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  55. CyanaTApril 26, 2015 at 9:30 PM

    Yup, thought she was real, too, and the 'Real Rowena' would be more than willing to watch Sam bleed to death to get at the Codex so she could translate the Botd and get all the nasty spells. So I agree - it was very well done.

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  56. lala2April 26, 2015 at 9:51 PM

    Hahaha! I can understand that. I was planning to watch L&O: SVU, but it was a repeat so I just watched SPN instead.

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  57. CyanaTApril 26, 2015 at 9:58 PM

    Tend to agree. Even WertherBenny stressed 'The Mark ain't (done with you killing)' . Manic!Dean (great description, Ginger) seems to be well aware Sam's lying about something and given the context of the last two episodes from Dean's perspective it absolutely cannot be anything good.
    So why is 'quasi-balanced' Dean still giving Sam coy openings instead of demanding explanations? He had no trouble in Metamorphosis getting Sam to spill... obviously not to whole story but enough to stress how dangerous 'it' was. Lots of fans see the dark/light 'split' as foreshadowing.

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