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Supernatural - Discussion - Dean’s MoC: "There’ll be Peace When You Are Done"

Mar 3, 2015

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[This is a one of a couple of mid-break feature articles taking a look at the storyline/writing of Dean and Sam. Sam’s up next week.]

No one epitomizes suffering more than Dean Winchester. The Mark of Cain seems to be the latest layer of misery added on top of a pile that’s been steadily growing for several seasons now. It’s a sign representing murder of a brother and born of a combination of repressed emotions and co-dependent dysfunction.

The Mark of a Cain comes with a relief valve though. Flip the switch to being demon and Dean loses pesky things like conscience, family responsibility, and emotional attachments, things that have created an unmanageable burden for Dean.

We’ve reached a point in the arc where both the characters and the fans are speculating about what a resolution to the MoC might look like. There are two parts to this storyline. One is the physical – how can the mark be removed, and the question – does it need to be? The other is psychological – Dean got the mark for a reason. It wasn’t something that snuck up on him. He sought it out while emotionally reeling from the consequences of the truth about Sam’s Gadreel -possession coming to light and the betrayal of Gadreel in killing Kevin.

While the first part (the physical) is getting plenty of speculation in the fandom already, I wanted to take a deeper look at the second part (the psychological), because the source of this storyline leads to some interesting questions. Does removing the arc, or even learning to control it without emotional resolution to the root cause, solve Dean’s problems? And what exactly are Dean’s problems?

Sam seems to have an idea but is not sharing at the moment. In the scene following Sam finding out that he was tricked into having an angel possess him, and Dean commenting that he’s poison, and Sam responded that that’s not the problem, but didn’t elaborate further. Charlie – in a recent storyline in which her split personality mirrored Dean’s battle between his good side and his bad – suggests Dean needs to forgive himself. But is it really that simple?

Burdened Son

Dean’s propensity for misery wasn’t always the case. When the series began, Dean was portrayed as an on-the-surface carefree young man who – while he had had to make some sacrifices – loved his family and loved that he got to save people in his unusual job. He was someone who could be happy with the simpler things of life, like a good beer, a good burger, and an attractive woman. Unlike his brother who tended to over-think things, Dean let things like guilt over credit card fraud roll off his shoulders because he recognized that he was doing the world a service that would never be properly acknowledged or rewarded.

While Dean was portrayed early on as having a deep sense of responsibility over his family, internalizing their misfortunes more than he reasonably should (which intensified after his father died and sold his soul to save him), this feeling of unrational responsibility didn’t seem to extend to people outside of his small circle of family. Whereas Sam in the early seasons was working through his fears of becoming a monster by overcompensating with a need to save everybody and everything that showed the slightest potential for redemption, Dean seemed to keep a healthier balance. An example is from season 4’s “Are You There God …” The brothers and Bobby are visited by several ghosts of people they had failed to save. Sam is immediately overcome by guilt when confronted by Agent Henriksen’s ghost, and Dean’s response to Sam’s comment that they got him killed is, “Stop it .... if you're not thinking answers, don't think at all.” He may feel guilt, but he can put it in perspective. Later in the episode, Dean’s response to the ghost of Ronald Reznick, when Ronald tells him he’s going to eat Dean alive, is “I’m not a cheeseburger.”

In the earlier seasons, it seemed to be the weight of protecting his brother, with everything stacked against them, that was crushing him. It was after John died making a deal with a demon to save Dean, and John’s final words to Dean that he might have to kill Sam, that this burden started manifesting itself in resentment and repressed violence (Examples are Dean smashing the Impala with a crowbar in “Everyone Loves a Clown” and the relish with which Dean killed a vampire in “Bloodlust”).

In the first few seasons, we also began to see that Dean had been entrusted with protecting Sam from a very early age – likely too early. John had imparted to Dean that it was his job to look after his younger brother – a role that came with both benefits and costs. His love for his brother was real, and Sam partially filled the void left when his mother died by giving Dean family. John was portrayed as most often not being there for his sons. At the same time, Dean’s role meant being forced to grow up too fast and sacrificing his own childhood. Dean, we saw, had low self-esteem and measured his own worth in his ability to protect his brother.

This love/hate/protectiveness/resentment of his brother is central to the Mark of Cain storyline, as we’ve learned that the Mark’s influence is pushing Dean in the direction of wanting to kill Sam.

Post-Hell Torturer

When Dean came back from Hell in season 4, he was permanently changed. We learned that after being tortured for 30 years in Hell, he finally broke and became a torturer himself for his remaining 10 years. But the thing that seemed to haunt Dean more was that he discovered he liked torturing souls. The violence hinted at in season 2 had found an outlet, and Dean began to fear losing himself to this violent side of himself. The heaviness introduced in season 4, while not always evident, has never ever really disappeared either. The lightness in Dean’s personality – early on shown in his desire for burgers, beer, and women – seemed to take on a darker tone as they seemed to be now more about escape rather than pleasure. In season 4, Dean started drinking heavily. In My Bloody Valentine, famine told Dean that he was empty inside: “You're not hungry, Dean, because inside, you're already...dead.”

While this would have been a good time for Dean to get into therapy, it didn’t happen and Dean coped by pushing everything down and struggling to hold things together. Adding to all of this was a growing rift between Sam and Dean. Sam hid that he was drinking demon blood with Ruby from Dean, and this resulted in Dean losing faith in Sam. Since Sam represented family to Dean – and Dean finds his purpose in family – Dean spiraled down into depression and despondency. Another thing that started appearing in the show was Dean demonstrating feelings of guilt over the deaths of all of the people who had helped them fight the Apocalypse. In “Point of No Return,” Dean lists off the names of people he says they responsible for getting killed, and it includes not only Pamela, Ellen and Jo, but also his mother – a curious choice since he was four years old when it happened and Sam was an infant. Dean and Sam had learned that the Apocalypse was about them – about their relationship mirroring Michael and Lucifer – and about how the story needed to end with one brother killing the other. In addition, Dean’s torturing in Hell launched the breaking of the seals that led to Lucifer’s escape from Hell. Since Dean was in Hell because of his decision to make a deal with a demon to bring Sam back from the dead, the guilt over their friends’ deaths is indirectly tied back to the mixed love/burden dynamic associated with his relationship with his brother.

Murderer/Killer

I think it was first in season 6 that the idea that Dean identified himself with being a killer was introduced. Whereas in the early seasons Dean saw hunting as black and white and good – they were killing monsters and saving people – in the later seasons the idea that the term “monster” is more about choice than about species clouded the issue. In “You Can’t Handle the Truth,” under the influence of a truth spell, Dean confessed, “But what I'm good at... is slicing throats. I ain't a father. I'm a killer. And there's no changing that. I know that now.” Season 6 was when the ethics of being a hunter was put under the microscope and the monsters started often appearing more sympathetic than the hunters.

It was Sam who first questioned whether they were killing things that didn’t need to be killed back in season 2’s “Bloodlust.” Sam continually pushed the debate about what constitutes a monster, as Sam himself, learning that he had demon blood in him, needed to believe that being a monster was about choice rather than destiny.

Prior to the start of season 8, Dean spent some time in Purgatory, where he seemed to find a release in being able to kill monsters without the guilt. Purgatory was portrayed as a more black and white world (represented visually by muted tones). Dean struggled with adjusting to being back and seemed to target a lot of his frustration on Sam who had been away from hunting and was at a very different place philosophically at the time. Dean was drawn to his new relationship with Benny – a simpler friendship from Purgatory – and seemed to find being with Sam difficult. The two found some resolution midseason, but for Dean the love/burden dynamic was back.

Mark of Cain

Season 9 began with Sam in a near death situation with traditional medicine being useless. While Dean this time didn’t make a deal with a demon, he did made a deal with an angel which required something Dean knew was wrong - helping the angel trick Sam into saying yes to possession (he admitted that Sam would choose to die before consenting to being possessed) and then lying to Sam for months about the possession. While deals with demons have been the worst culprits on this show, supernatural quick fixes with unknown consequences have generally been shown to be bad as they most often come with a cost. In “Faith,” Dean’s life was traded for another’s. In “Bad Day at Black Rock,” the cursed rabbit’s foot’s luck eventually backfired. In “Wishful Thinking,” Sam chose not to make a wish in the wishing well with the cursed coin because he said he knew it wouldn’t be real. Soulless Sam said he didn’t take the leprechaun up on his offer to get his soul back in “Clap Your Hands …” because he knew better than to make a deal. There does seem to be an exception on the show, and that is when the supernatural creature they’re dealing with is truly trustworthy (such as Cas or Death), but for the most part, Supernatural deals generally backfire.

When the truth came out, and Sam was upset, instead of facing the emotional fallout, Dean’s reaction was to go with Crowley to get the blade so that he could kill something, in this case Abaddon since Gadreel was inaccessible. It was the return of a pattern to repress his hurt and take it out in violence. Cain warned Dean that the Mark came a great cost but Dean’s thirst for blood was too strong.

The question now is what’s next?

Is learning to live with the mark the solution?

Learning to live as a monster isn’t a new concept to the show. Sam has seen himself as a “freak” since a young age. The term “freak” turned into “monster” when Sam learned he had demon blood in him. While this is Sam’s story (learning to accept being different), Dean’s story has always been about his unhealthy attachment to family and the consequences of the choices he makes to protect them. The Mark is a symbol of murder.  While Sam’s story could be dressed up as person learning to accept that he’s different from his family and society, for Dean, coming to accept the Mark as part of himself would mean accepting that he's a “murderer.”

However, the idea that Dean could learn to live with the mark has been suggested on the show, as Dean tries to follow Sam’s lead and live a more repressed lifestyle, apparently hoping this will help him grow self-control. But is diet and drink really Dean’s core issues? Dean’s mostly in control of himself in normal day-to-day activities. It ultimately seems to be family that’s his weak spot that sends him to making decisions (such as deals with demons) that under normal circumstances, he wouldn’t consider.  If he can’t control his emotional reactions to family as a human, will he be able to control them with them with the Mark intensifying everything? Is the presence of Sam/family in his life a ticking time bomb?

Is Sam Dean’s problem or solution?

This to me is one of the more interesting questions because I have trouble figuring out episode to episode whether Dean wants to protect his younger brother or bash his brains in. There’s potential for some deep psychological exploration here, as it came out during Dean’s time as a demon that his resentment toward Sam seems to date all the way back to Mary’s death. With lack of filters as a demon, the “we” got Mary killed (from season 5) turned into Sam got her killed.

There’s a lot of discussion in the fandom about Sam needing to save Dean. Sam lately has been shown to have unfaltering faith in his brother. Add with the parallel of Colette to Cain’s story, and how Colette’s support was the inspiration for Cain staying good for many years, the show seems to be heading in the direction of Sam being Dean’s support for learning to live with the Mark.

My opinion is probably less popular, in that I don’t think Sam’s faith in his brother has never been the issue. Over the course of the series, Sam has made it abundantly clear over and over again that he loves his brother, would do anything for his brother, and has faith in his brother. There have been rare exceptions (the demon blood period comes to mind) and they’ve had differences of opinions that were typical of family. But considering there’s been much more good in their relationship than bad, and that Dean’s issues with Sam started when Sam was an infant, Sam’s reactions can’t possibly be the root of Dean’s problems. Dean’s issues run deep, and it can’t be up to Sam (or any other one person) to be the answer to all of Dean’s problems. Dean needs to face his issues, and putting it all on Sam would intensify, rather than diffuse, the destructiveness of the co-dependency in the relationship.

Is hunting the problem?

With a gradual shift over the series to more sympathetic monsters, the ethics around hunting became grayer. The blurring of the definition of “monster” has opened up Dean to becoming friends with a vampire and letting Garth walk away as a werewolf, but it’s also led to his view of hunting slowly transform into “killing.” Does Dean need to walk away from hunting to find peace? Can he walk away from hunting?

Does Dean need a redemption arc?

I’m not suggesting here that I think Dean deserves to be punished, but redemption arcs are more often not about punishment or even making things right, so much as they are about giving peace to the protagonist who is feeling overwhelming guilt.  These are issues that Dean’s been dealing with for a long time now and seem to be progressively getting worse.

It was hinted at by Charlie that Dean needs to learn to forgive himself. While this is certainly a first step – especially around things that were clearly not Dean’s fault (such as Jo deciding to become a hunter as was suggested in season 7) - this isn’t so simple. Dean’s guilt over things he had no control over (Mary’s and John’s deaths) have become blended in his mind with consequences from decisions that he does have more control over – such as agreeing to let Gadreel possess Sam and then agreeing to lie to Sam about it. If Dean is unable to distinguish between things that he has no control over and his mistakes (choices that he did have control over), then he is going to continue to feel cursed, or to use his words, like he’s “poison.”

I’m reminded of a couple of parts of the Alcohol Anonymous 12-step program that seem relevant here. One is the reciting of the Serenity Prayer: “God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.” The other is asking forgiveness from those you have wronged. By claiming responsibility for everything, all of this guilt gets jumbled into one big mess that is too big to face. As a result, nothing is changing. He would start to feel a lot better if he broke his guilt down into more manageable parts and took steps to make amends for pieces where he can.

Please let me know your thoughts in the comments below. Feel free to speculate on other parts of the MoC storyline too that I didn’t address here.

80 comments:

  1. Great meta! I would parallel Sam more with Abel (and maybe Cas with Colette). Cain said Dean was living his life in reverse, and he killed his brother, then Colette. He told Dean he would kill Cas, then Sam. I love the analysis of Dean's psychology though.

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  2. i like - and appreciate - your insight. i think we fans spend more time dissecting the characters than the actual show writers do. i think there's great potential in dean's storyline - i hope the writers follow through with it.

    on a different note, i'm really enjoying the (brotherly) closeness between dean and sam. there are some really good scenes there - kudos to the writers for that!

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  3. For the first five seasons, and predominantly in the fifth season, it was suggested that Dean would have to kill Sam but ever since the MoC storyline, I wonder if Sam will have to kill Dean. Could be as a season finale, or if next season is SPN's last, then that could be how the series ends with Dean going "full nuclear". It would also be a twist on the Cain and Abel story.

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  4. Thanks for the comments. I don't see the same parallels between Cas and Colette, but we can agree to disagree on that. TBH, I'm not sure Colette is a good parallel to have in this situation anyway, since it's my view that Dean doesn't need unquestioning support, he needs some introspection and to break the pattern.

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  5. I've seen a lot of speculation that Dean will kill Sam, but I don't see how that would move forward either brother as far as these deeper character issues go. Killing isn't the same thing as just letting someone go, and killing Sam would just open up the floodgates to more violence. And Sam needs to respect himself more as a person, and stop sacrificing his own needs for his family's neuroses. Making himself a victim wouldn't help that.

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  6. Well I didn't say Dean will kill Sam. That, as I brought up, seemed like something that was looming over the series in its first five seasons. But there's been a gradual progress where it seemed that Dean was always going to get to a moment in a series where he will actually become a killer and not just a hunter. That's why I think Dean going "full nuclear" in the series' last season would make sense, far more than the season finale.

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  7. Yup, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that was what you were saying. I think Dean going "full nuclear" would be the most entertaining option, so I could get on board with that.

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  8. Ahhh, okay. Well, yah, the idea of Dean having to kill Sam would have done nothing in the beginning of the series. Even if Adam served as a plot device for that not to happen, I was cool with how "Swan Song" ended. But I think if Sam had to kill Dean, I'd be more fine with that as a series finale as Dean can finally be redeemed, get the "rest" he needs and can get rid of the evil that has burrowed inside him because of the MoC. And for Sam, that could be a moment where Sam can do one final thing to save someone by killing Dean and then finally move on once and for good.

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  9. Just want to say for the record it was Season 9, not 8, that Sam was on Death's door and Dean made the deal with the Angel.

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  10. Yes, that's right. I'll correct that.

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  11. CUT OFF HIS ARM. There HAS to be something in the bunker that can be used as a demon/monster killing prosthesis.

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  12. I might be able to live with Sam killing Dean as a series finale. I just dread the fandom reaction if Sam kills Dean before the show ends. Dean killing Sam can be explained and mitigated. Sam killing Dean, for any reason, won't, IMHO.

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  13. There does seem to be an exception on the show, and that is when the
    supernatural creature they’re dealing with is truly trustworthy (such as
    Cas or Death), but for the most part, Supernatural deals generally
    backfire.


    I think even with Cas and Death you can make the argument that deals backfire, although sometimes on a less personal level. Death made it clear that the Winchesters bouncing back from being dead has huge ramifications on the world at large and I'm more than willing to believe that this includes his bringing Sam back from the Cage. They have made relatively few "deals" with Cas, who has been an ally. The only deal I'm bringing to mind is Dean praying to Cas and saying he was willing to be a servant of God in season four and that backfired incredibly, since the angels were being 100% duplicitous and were trying to start the Apocalypse.

    Sam has seen himself as a “freak” since a young age. The term “freak”
    turned into “monster” when Sam learned he had demon blood in him. While
    this is Sam’s story (learning to accept being different),


    I'm really interested to read your take on Sam. I think this was and should be Sam's narrative, but then it got less clear when Sam talked about being purified by the trials, which made it sound like he just needed to stop being different. Then at the end of season 8 Dean recounted all of Sam's bad deeds, even the ones he had made amends for (I'm honestly not sure how much more he could do other than jumping into the cage for eternal torture) and stated that Sam is still not free of his sins and by implication not pure. So I'm really confused as to the message we are getting on Sam right now. I'm hoping you can make me see it more clearly.

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  14. I think it would actually be the very opposite. If Dean killed Sam, nothing can be explained for why, especially when Sam is far stronger mentally and emotionally than Dean at this moment whereas with the other way around, not only does it make sense with the MoC looming over Dean's head, but it's a parallel to the very beginning of the series where Sam wanted to spread his wings outside of the hunting lifestyle. Killing Dean will not only redeem Dean and have him "rest", but in a metaphorical way, killing Dean will also bring Sam out of that life as there's nothing more to keep Sam within a lifestyle that he's never been 100% on board with. It is Dean that has proclaimed himself to be a killer and only that and it is Dean that only tried to pretend to move on whereas Sam has indeed moved on countless of times and tried to stay on that path.

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  15. Thanks. What I meant with Cas and Death is that there's not some hidden consequence that they find out about later. Both have been pretty straightforward with Sam and Dean. I was thinking more along the lines of supernatural fixes in general, rather than limiting it to "deals."


    The Sam article will be more focused on the writing than trying to make sense of what's been going on with his character lately, but a lot of my opinions on his storylines will slip through. You'll get a pretty good idea of what I think of it all from it.

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  16. What a great analysis of Dean Winchester. I have always thought that Dean was the character that made the choices/decisions that drove the story. The title for the season finale has me concerned for Sam though. I don't see Dean killing Sam (brother deaths have been done to death) but Sam is going to have to come up with one hell of a plan to avoid that fate.

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  17. What an awesome read! Thank you for taking the time to put this down. It brought back a ton of memories!

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  18. Thank you for your thoughtful balanced comments. I think way too often instead of actually analyzing the entire story of the Winchester brothers people get caught up in only really looking at it from Dean' side, or Sam's side, or Cas' side, or harping about what happened in past, especially on this site where I've pretty much quit reading the reviews/recaps of the episodes because all they do is gripe. You've done a good job of following Dean's path of despair and guilt. I can barely look at him any longer without crying he is so sad. I don't know what they will do about the MoC but I hope that neither brother has to sacrifice themselves or kill each other, as that just leads to more despair. I look forward to reading your article on Sam and any other articles you write on Supernatural.

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  19. Personally, I see Sam as an Abel/Colette kind of deal. Sam is the reason Dean doesn't want to be a monster...not Cas, but agree to disagree.

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  20. I always thought that Sam's blood and internal organs boiling was what was purifying him. He needed to be purified in order to cure a demon. Hmmm....maybe he will go through with it with his own blood in order to completely cure Dean.

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  21. But that way they can't have Cas come in and be the real savior because Sam was too stupid to realize that Dean could escape. Cas's place as better than Sam must never be compromised.

    I think using sanctified blood instead of Sam's own blood was a way of making sure Sam didn't get a full win. For one thing, it wasn't anything special about Sam that was needed to save Dean. If they had used Sam's own blood, Dean escaping the trap because Sam was weakened trying to save him would be understandable. Dean breaking out because Sam was careless and didn't think ahead, means Sam is too weak and worthless to save Dean on his own. Then, of course, the last thing we see is Sam being saved, not Dean being saved, so whatever Sam did to save Dean is off screen. I think Sam saved Dean, but I also think the writing was skewed to mask that fact and to continue to downplay Sam's role.

    As to the purification, Sam made it clear that he hadn't felt clean since he was a kid. I felt like the purification was all about making sure we knew that Sam hadn't been pure ever. YMMV.

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  22. Thank you very much for this article. Some interesting points about Dean were finally brought back. Especially about being a "murderer/killer" and accepting that.

    Actually, I'm quite focused on the idea Dean will NOT kill Sam in the season 10 finally but he will be sure that he has killed him (Sam will still be alive). The show needs another deep breath. So why don't they make a fake death of Sam and make Dean even more darker like Cain predicted? Yes, Sam isn't quite "Colette" or "Abel". He is somewhere in the middle. But still...

    I also believe that we will see demon!Dean soon. There are a lot of things leading to that. To begin with, the ritual with blood was done absolutely wrong, then all those extra-shots, torturing Metatron and the MoC shining without the Blade. What about that strange look in the end of 10x14?

    I believe that we are going to see dark Dean soon. The demon is still somewhere there.

    And yes, if they make Sam sacrifice himself to save Dean and in season 11 we will see Sam suffer a lot again like in aerlier seasons....Well...bad for Carver ans Co.

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  23. Sam did the blood curing wrong, I thought I was the only one who noticed lol...If he had finished that last step, it would have probably worked, but he missed it and that is really going to come into play in the next 9 episodes hopefully.

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  24. I really enjoyed your opinion about Dean and a Redemption arc. I hadn't really thought of that before. However I was confused when you didn't mention Cas in this particular part: Cain said that Dean was living his life in reverse. Cain's life was ordered: he killed his brother Abel, then Colette, then all Abbadon's demons. Cain told Dean that Dean would kill Crowley(parallel to Abbadon's demons) then Castiel (parallel to Colette) then he would kill Sam (Abel) which would be a reverse.

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  25. I'm not sure I agree with that assessment for the first few seasons, but I think things shifted, if not in season 4 than in season 5 and thereafter. TBH, I don't know what I want for the ending, but everyone seems to be expecting Dean to kill Sam, so I hope they at least do something different than that.

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  26. Glad you enjoyed the article and thanks for commenting. To warn you, I have more problems with the writing of Sam, so you can expect that one to be more critical, but I try to be fair.

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  27. Thanks for commenting. I'm not sure what you mean by the second part. The article focused mostly on Dean's psychology. I don't think I went into much detail about what Cain and Dean talked about.

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  28. Thanks for the comments and sharing your theories. I'm hoping they do something different than what most are expecting, which is Dean killing Sam in the finale. I don't know what to expect though.

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  29. Thanks for commenting!

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  30. Thanks for the comments! I've been doing a rewatch recently of the earlier seasons. I was surprised how much I could use pre-season 5 for this article.

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  31. "Add with the parallel of Colette to Cain’s story, and how Colette’s support was the inspiration for Cain staying good for many years, the show seems to be heading in the direction of Sam being Dean’s support for learning to live with the Mark." I was just pointing out that the way Cain stated it, it seemed like Cas was paralleled with Colette. And I also think that Cas has as well supported Dean no matter what along with Sam, albeit for 6 years instead of his whole life.

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  32. Dean came and got Sam at Stanford. He could have continued alone but he didn't want to. Dean chose to save Sam by selling his own soul to hell. Sam was presumably at peace having died an innocent. Yes I know it would have been a very short lived show if Sam had stayed dead but these were Dean's decisions that drove the story from very early in the series. S4 was the only season that was on equal footing as far as who was driving the story. Sam may have been the victim of the supernatural but Dean was, as the POV character the one that decided the course of the unfolding events. I always saw Dean's character as the one the audience related to. He was the narrator. Dean being a demon has thrown me all out of whack. Since Sam has little to no POV it's hard to relate to either character sometimes this season.
    I can't see another brother death for the season finale. It would be to predictable and so far they try not to do what is expected.

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  33. I do not think Castiel is being hinted at being Dean's Colette to be honest . Maybe it is a role in Dean,s life some want for Castiel in the current mytharc but I do not necessarily think that is what the writers are thinking .

    But then I have not really watched this season. I do not like the showrunner or group of writers we have they have underminded Sam at every turn so it could be possible they are going along those lines?.

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  34. I agree, there should be more Sam. If there's one thing I would change about the season it's to have more Sam. Kinda a big thing. I hope to see him and Cas working together more often and judging by the promo scene and Misha Collins's tweeted video we may in fact get just that! But, I've watched all season and it seems to me that Cas is Dean's Colette, and all the parallels they've drawn to her using other characters have had hints to Cas not Sam. Sam is spelled out as Abel I think and if Dean kills Sam it'll break my heart because protecting Sam has been his sole purpose in life since Sam was born!

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  35. I believe Sam is supposed to be the Abel and the Collette. Lets face it Sam is the only one who Dean would stop the killing for, he wouldnt do it for Cas.

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  36. Sam would have to find a way to kill Dean so he doesnt turn into a Demon, which could happen if we are to believe Carver's words on Sam's so called story arc. Though I'm not really sure how how killing Dean would help unless they find a way to remove the MOC in killing him/bringing him back, something that they cant do when he is alive?
    I just think that having Dean kill or attempt to kill Sam wouldnt have the impact it would have years back, there are too many fans who dont really care for Sam, there would be too many ways for Dean to not be at fault, it would just lead to even more Dean angst, Sam would be brought back and would forget about it as we all know he isnt allowed to have actual feelings. Its been too heavily implied already which would lessen the suprise element.

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  37. I just keep wondering if killing Sam (which to me makes no sense unless Sam is sarcificing himself) is leading to a bigger storyline for Sam next season with him stuck in 'the veil'.

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  38. that makes sense, thing is the season finale this year implies a brother v brother scenario, who knows how far off a series finale is. So it wouldnt so much work at this point of the series but I like that idea.

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  39. I'm not sure Sam would move on outside of hunting though, I think (and if Jared has anything to say about it) that it has now been implied that Sam is content in the life and will not quit hunting. I personally think Sam would be a great MOL. He isnt likely to just go settle down somewhere with someoen given how many times thats back fired on him. I think Carver also said that Sam was fully in the hunting life no more looking to escape.

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  40. Jensen aparently views the show and Dean;'s role in it as you do. He mentioned that having this role gave him more work as he was/is shows main connection to the audience, makes me wonder why he always complained about not having the myth arc, either he wanted to reduce his work load to more Jared's level or he wanted it all. I would guess at the second one since under Carver he has had both the myth arc and POV.

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  41. I've never read or heard Jensen say that. I've heard his fans pitch a social media frenzy about it. I think that Jensen is a team player and does what he can to make a good show. And yes I would love to see more Sam POV, interaction with guest stars and less knocked out tied up scenes.

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  42. I agree. I have never heard Jensen ask for the "mytharc" or make demands about his storyline. Some of his fans have complained for years without wanting a corresponding increase in POV for Sam. But Jensen has seemed to be happy with his role in the show. The most I've heard was that he wished Demon!Dean had gone on for a few more episodes.

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  43. It really says something when a character gets a bigger story if he's DEAD and stays dead for a while. At least it says something about the way Sam is being used that we can even talk about this.

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  44. Probably going to get flamed for this, but so be it: The Year of the Deanmon was supposed to be a year. That was the way S10 was sold to us. The Year was really 3 weeks. During that time Demon Dean caroused around, drank, sang bad karaoke, had sex with women, killed demons in self defense. I'd even give him a free pass with Lester because Lester was an accident waiting to happen. If Demon Dean had lasted for a season, and then been cured, then sure, that would give Dean plenty to feel remorseful about. Otherwise, I don't see any evidence of him committing great evil. The show shot themselves in the foot by cutting him short. And the argument that Dean staying evil would have damaged the brotherly relationship doesn't wash because the same fans who post that didn't say a word about Demon Blood Junkie Sam, or Soulless. They wanted Dark Sam, they got Dark Sam.



    As it stands, this MoC 'will he or won't he?' tease is a joke. Dean killed in self-defense. Maybe I missed something, but it was 4 against 1. I get that scene was intended to show how lethal Dean is when he goes postal, but I still maintain that any decent lawyer could have gotten him off with self-defense. Now if he'd snuck out of the bunker and slaughtered an innocent family during a home invasion, that would be evil, but the show's not going to go that way because they don't want certain fans to hate him. Did Dean kill claire or the two morons she set up to murder him? No. Personally, I'd stand by Dean no matter what. Even the brightest heroes like him have the darkest spots, but for some reason the show is unwilling or unable to maintain a compelling storyline for him. This is the second major Dean storyline that's been cut short under Carver's watch, or have you all forgotten Benny and Purgatory?


    Do I think they underestimate the fans? Yes. The ones who don't want to see Dean do anything beyond stand around and look worried for Sam and bird butt make their views known online, and it's apparent Carver and Singer listen to them.



    What I'm saying is that all this talk about evil, redemption and Dean's angst about Demon Dean seems pretty hollow to me, even with Jensen's formidable acting skills. Dude was on screen for 3 weeks. Three lousy episodes. Properly done, Demon Dean's storyline could have been a showcase for all of the characters on the show. As far as Dean killing Sam, I doubt very much that's going to happen. That move would take more cohones than Carver and company have.


    I'd like to see Dean learn to live with the MoC. I'd love to see him display, on occasion, demonic qualities like the black eyes or other abilities until the series finale, but that's not going to happen either. I have faith in the show that their method of getting rid of the Mark will be illogical, just like that blood cure, which shouldn't have worked in the first place.

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  45. Thanks for the comments. I tend to agree in wishing that the demon arc had lasted longer and had had more bite. I think there's a general conservativeness about shaking up the MOTW format that's hurting the show.


    I do, however, think there tends to be a grass-in-greener mentality around which character has the most dropped stories. Sam was supposed to be the boy king of hell who led a demon army, and people were expecting Cas would be God for more than an episode. While I understand your frustration on what the story could be, I'd love to hear an argument on how Sam, Cas or Crowley have had better story lines than the MoC during the Carver years.

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  46. Yeah, I agree. First of all, it was pretty clear that Dean's "death" pre-season eight was so traumatic that Sam simply cut and ran. Even in "Hunteri Heroici" he was so traumatized that Amelia's father saw it within minutes. Not only did he feel intense guilt upon Dean's return for not looking for Dean but also for abandoning Kevin and what he clearly saw as his responsibilities to hunting. Sam made a choice in "Torn & Frayed" that I think was based on a lot of things but mostly "both feet in or both feet out." I don't see him being able to turn completely away from hunting. Furthermore, he's become more and more comfortable with the bunker as home.

    However, if Sam were to kill Dean, I don't think it would matter. It would destroy him. Hard as it was for him to push through when Dean "died," I don't believe he could survive killing his big brother. He wouldn't be able to live with that act. He'd have nothing to live for.

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  47. Dean being that "final challenge"

    wow, that sure makes Sam sound cold blooded

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  48. The part about Sam not feeling clean even as a child didn't sit well with me then and still doesn't. It's difficult to believe that wouldn't have come out back during the Azazel storyline when Sam found out about the demon blood in him, but it's canon now. *throws hands in air* I honestly didn't see much point in that detail tbh other than heightening the drama.



    I'm not sure how much of it was downplaying Sam's role and how much was an excuse to continue having Cas on the show. I guess they have to give him something to do, and there seems to be an emphasis on "family" including Cas, Jody, and Charlie. I'm surprised we haven't seen Garth yet.everyone rallying around to save Dean in contrast to how Sam is isolated from others when he's in trouble.

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  49. Dean killing Sam would be extremely disappointing, and the answer to the question, "am I my brother's keeper?" has always been "yes." I don't see why that ought to change. Dean has been told for years that he might have to or should kill Sam. He's always rejected that. It's the backbone of the show. I'm not sure how the show or Dean could come back from that.

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  50. And to be fair, Sam was supposed to do terrible things in his search for Dean, but all he did was torture a demon, which they do all the time, and show a murderous husband how to sell his soul. Hardly terrible.



    The writers are unwilling to let the boys go dark, but I think that the gore and violence and scares in general have been toned down the past few seasons. I wonder if it has to do with the way tptb appear to be courting a younger demographic.

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  51. Well in season four when they locked Sam in the panic room, Bobby pointed out Sam might die and Dean said "at least he dies human", which does parallel Cain being willing to kill Abel to keep him from "becoming Lucifer's Pet". Last season Dean was completely ready to kill Gadreel in Sam's body and when Cas reminded him that doing that would kill Sam as well, Dean said "Don't you think I know that?". So Dean has been willing to kill Sam under the right circumstance. He hasn't always rejected it.

    I don't know that he will kill Sam here, because it does seem to be too obvious, but under the influence of the Mark and if he can be convinced that he's "saving Sam" by killing him, I think Dean could do it without too much internal conflict.

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  52. I know there's some disagreement on the panic room, but it was not Dean's intent to kill Sam. In "Road Trip," Dean indicated that he would kill the angel possessing Sam, and Cas reminded him that Sam would die too. Dean said, "Think I don't know that? If I don't end Sam and that halo burns him out and I..." In both cases, Dean's intention was to save Sam if not his life so you're right. If Dean could be convinced that he was actually saving Sam, then he'd would be willing to kill him as Cain did Able. I wouldn't agree that it would be without internal conflict. Not only does he love Sam, but he knows that such an act would destroy him along with killing Sam.

    That would be a pathetically obvious way to handle the storyline. They might tease that, but I can't imagine they'd do it. There would have to be a twist.

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  53. It comes down to this for me, Colette forgive Cain for what he was and what he did and tried to "save" him. That's exactly what Sam did, when Dean was demon he flat asked Sam if he deserved to be saved, because Sam didn't know about the things he could have done, and Sam's simple answer was he didn't care, he just wanted to save his brother. Cas on the other hand stated on two occasions that he was willing to kill Dean/let him die. Doesn't really sound like a good parallel for Colette to me. Add on that Sam has also been the only one to get through to Dean whenever he has had a MoC flair up, Sam's voice cuts through the MoC's control and has gotten Dean to come back to reality.

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  54. I thought the blood bags were used because there was a risk that Sam might finish the third trial if he used his own blood. Which makes sense.

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  55. He had no reaction when Cain mentioned Cas' name, but even before he could say "Sam", Dean let out a panicked "No."


    Add that every prior death Cas has gone through Dean more or less shrugged it off fairly quickly, as opposed how he dealt with Bobby's death.

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  56. The gore seems to be pretty much on par with how's its always been. Of there is any censoring going it's most likely from the network, like in season 8, they filmed a guy ripping out his eyeball, but standards and practice said it was too much.

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  57. Thing you need to realize though is that marketing is a separate entity from the actual production of the show. Carver and Singer have no say in how the episodes are promoted, that could also apply to the whole "Year of the Deanmon" thing.


    But Carver never came out and said that Dean wasn't a demon, he talked since Dean was a different type demon, one that wasn't made in Hell. That he has hints of his humanity still, and wanted to question how much of demon Dean was the real Dean.

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  58. That would have been worth seeing. I'm not much for gore, but the show rarely scary anymore. The best moment I can remember this season was when Kate walked into the darkened room her sister had killed in. Not much else comes to mind. The cutting back and forth between multiple storylines and choppy editing has a tendency to undermine building tension. Again, there's an unwillingness to have the boys do anything dark -- nothing like showing Sam drink demon's blood.

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  59. "Final challenge" in the sense that he's there only reason why Sam is hunting as well as the finality of Supernatural as a whole; Dean will be the last "big boss battle" so to speak.

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  60. I see, yeah. I disagree that Dean is the only reason Sam is hunting or that he'd go off and have a normal life if Dean died again, especially if he was the instrument of Dean's death. Additionally, I think few would find it satisfying to have their last scenes as conflict or to have them separated at the end of the series. Jensen sure wouldn't be, and probably not Jared either. They aren't the writers but I suspect they'd put up a fight on that one.

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  61. Right? Are souls still stuck in the veil? The angels got back in so why not souls?

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  62. I don't it adds anything to Sam's guilt if he's the "instrument" of Dean's death. The Mark of Cain will ideally be the true instrument of Dean's death and Sam just needed to do what is needed for both himself and for Dean. Dean needs to finally "rest" and Sam had to be the one to do it(as I see other allies, such as Castiel dead before the series finale). I think in parallel to what Sam asked of Dean in "Swan Song", Dean will ask the same for Sam. Throughout many times of the series, Sam suggested that Dean CAN move on and be happy, but Sam's been the only one that actually did move on and can be happy.

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  63. This is a show that had Dean and Bobby agree that if one brother believed the other brother was dead they would not try to bring them back, then made Sam the bad guy for not trying to bring Dean back when he thought he was dead. This is a show that had Dean trick Sam into accepting Gadreel's possession and then made Sam the bad guy because he got angry and hurt Dean's feelings, instead of exploring Sam's feelings on the issue. This is a show that had Dean as a demon sing bad karaoke, kill demons and tell Anne Marie that he really didn't intend to stay with her forever and then made it clear that Dean killing Lester was Sam's fault because Sam told Lester about making demon deals.

    I have absolutely every belief that if Dean kills Sam it will be seen as a tragedy for Dean and he will be killing Sam either because Sam deserves it (he turns dark trying to save Dean, the Mark made him do it.) OTOH, if Sam kills Dean that it will still be a tragedy for Dean and Sam will be unreasonable (he didn't trust Dean enough to fight the Mark, he should have had Cas do something to save Dean, Sam doesn't love Dean enough and just wants to go back to Amelia). The entire focus of Carver's reign is Dean is right, Sam is wrong, San is incompetent (a 14 year old Dean can take on a witch and Hansel, Sam gets knocked out; Sam is so careless that he ignores a partially cured demon Dean who escapes and Sam has to be rescued by Cas, Sam gets knocked out virtually every week). I think the narrative has been deeply sympathetic toward Dean and totally unsympathetic toward Sam. I don't see any reason to think this will change. If writer statements can be believed the intention is to make Sam even more unsympathetic before the end of season, although I'm willing to see how that actually plays out.

    In any case, I see Dean coming out smelling like a rose and Sam coming out smelling like the fertilizer that is put on that rose.

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  64. I'm not going to get into some discussion or argument or what have you with the merits of the show's writers and what some believing of Dean bring written as the "perfect child" or Sam being written as the "idiot brother".


    You can take that to someone else.

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  65. You won't get any flames from me w/r/t the wasted potential for DD b/c I agree w/you. The DD arc was a joke, IMO. It was boring and uneventful. The best part of that story, IMO, was the fight w/Cole. I definitely saw nothing that would cause Dean to feel tremendous amounts of guilt, but that's just me. I have also found the MOC!Dean story to be bad as well. As you mentioned, Dean hasn't done anything truly evil or horrific while under the influence of the Mark IMO. I believe both Metatron's and Cain's descriptions of Dean were far more interesting and intriguing than how Dean is actually being presented but that is just my opinion.

    I'm not sure why they tied their hands w/DD and MOC!Dean. The writers seem unwilling to take any chances w/Dean so the plots have been wasted. As a bi-bro fan, I can say that I would hold no ill will toward Dean if he actually did something interesting in this arc. I would love to see him be more bloodthirsty. I'd love to see him fighting an urge to kill Sam. I just want something, anything to happen this season. For me, this season has been horrifically boring.

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  66. They haven't.

    Sam has definitely NOT had the better stories during the Carver years. In S8, he abandoned Dean and hooked up w/some random chick. Because the story was so poorly executed, that is all anyone remembers. Was there some sadness about Dean being dead? I guess so . . . . we never really saw it thought. Carver didn't even bother to tell us why Sam went from thinking Dean was alive in the S7 finale to thinking he was dead in the S8 premiere. It seems to have happened in a matter of minutes. The wasted trials . . . that wasn't a good story. Oh, and Sam being extremely hurtful to Dean in S9 and ridiculously wishy-washy w/r/t Gadreel and the possession was not good either.

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  67. Unless they kick MOC!Dean arc into gear - and by that, I mean having him actually do something evil or controversial - then I hope Dean does kill Sam. That would be at least somewhat entertaining . . . interesting to watch. We all know Sam isn't going to truly die anyway so why not?

    This has been, for me, the most boring season of Supernatural I ever watched. I seriously think each Carver season is progressively worse than the one before it. And S10 is even worse than S9. I can't even remember what the last episode before this mini-break was about. There is literally nothing happening on this show right now, IMO. The idea of Dean killing Sam (and C2) interests me. They haven't, IMO, made the Mark interesting so what else is there to do?

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  68. Well, if there is a twist, I'm sure it will result in Sam looking like an @$$hole! He hasn't exactly been thrown under the bus this year, but since Carver seems to like to do that every year, I could see him doing it now in some way.

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  69. Actually he did. he did an interview where he mentioned that season 10 was demon Dean season before the ads came out. He also just after season 10 started declared in an interview that Dean was actually a demon. Carver isn't above using Dean to get people to watch but he'll do as little as possible with him otherwise. Also Singer has never had a say as he is not the showrunner and never has been even though Carver's claiming he is lately so he can pass the buck.

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  70. I'd like to see that interview where he says the whole season is demon Dean. What'd your point? He's always said Dean was a demon in interviews before the season started.


    Also, Singer has been the co-showrunner from the beginning with Kripke. Kripke has mentioned it plenty before.

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  71. No, he's always said Dean was a demon, just that there might be a little humanity in him, etc..


    And Singer has always been a showrunner, him and Kripke were responsible for the day-to-day operations on the show, that's what a showrunner does. If he was only there to pull the reigns budget wise, why would Kripke talk about going to him and pitching ideas, ideas were budget is not an issue and are strictly storytelling?

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  72. Youtube Paleyfest 2006 Singer says it himself in front of Eric Kripke, Kim Manners, John Shiban, Ackles, Padalecki themoderator and an audience he was hire to make sure Kripke didn't go nuts with the backers cash. Other then that he wrote or directed not exactly duties of a showrunner. The only time Singer has been called a showrunner is during Carver's reign. Also Carver was quoted in the interviews, "Dean WAS NOT a demon." He didn't say demon or a human demon Carver said Dean wasn't a demon.

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  73. Handling budgets, as well as creative aspects, and dealing with the network is what a showrunner does. Sound like what Robert Singer has been doing on the show from the start, hell Kripke even credits him for being the one to interject character development in the show, when all he wanted was classic rock and gore. Plus he's been credited as co-showrunner in the trades way before Carver came on.


    Okay, where are these interviews where he says Dean's not a demon? You keep saying it, but provide no proof. Whereas all interview I find, Carver says Dean is a demon. There are literally no interviews with him that I can find where he says Dean's not a demon.


    You are aware that marketing is separate from the rest of the production, right? Carver or Singer had zero to do with the episode 9 promo.

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  74. Carver oversees the show which includes advertising. I never saw any mention of Singer being showrunner until these last couple of seasons. Also he only spent the 1st year keeping on eye on the money nothing else and after that his only job was writing/directing. Also the show went bad Season 8 Singer's been there since Season 1 so Carver's responsible. You have yet to show proof but demand I show proof? Google it. Carver gave quite a few interviews at the start of season 10 until he realized he was digging the hole deeper.

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  75. Eevery interview Carver gave I can find, he never once said that Dean wasn't a demon. If you know where to find one, show me it, otherwise you're full of it.

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  76. No I'm not just because you can't be bothered to find it or look back on interviews doesn't mean it's not there. Oct/Nov 2014 Jeremy Carver go look. If it means so much to you you google it.

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  77. I've read through all the interviews he gave in Oct/Nov not once does he utter Dean is not a demon in any of them. The fact is your full of shit, you can't produce even one link to give credence to your claim.

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  78. You can't find it so I'm lying is that it? Get over yourself.

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  79. Dean is awesome and amazing in all the seasons !!

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  80. Jensen is a super actor and Dean a super character !!!

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