2.18 - "Tempus Fugit"
Directed by Paul Edwards
Written by Mark Goffman
Reviewed by Gavin Hetherington
Season Guide
Click on the episode title to be taken to that review of the episode. Advance previews will be linked in paranthesis after the episode titles. Some episodes did not get an advance preview. Episodes 1-13 were covered by Romain Ossust.
2.01 - "
This Is War" (
Advance Preview)
2.02 - "
The Kindred" (
Advance Preview)
2.03 - "
Root of All Evil"
2.04 - "
Go Where I Send Thee..." (
Advance Preview)
2.05 - "
The Weeping Lady"
2.06 - "
And the Abyss Gazes Back"
2.07 - "
Deliverance" (
Advance Preview)
2.08 - "
Heartless" (
Advance Preview)
2.09 - "
Mama" (
Advance Preview)
2.10 - "
Magnum Opus"
2.11 - "
The Akeda" (
Advance Preview)
2.12 - "
Paradise Lost"
2.13 - "
Pittura Infamante"
2.14 - "
Kali Yuga"
2.15 - "
Spellcaster" (
Advance Preview)
2.16 - "
What Lies Beneath"
2.17 - "
Awakening" (
Advance Preview)
2.18 - "
Tempus Fugit" (
Advance Preview)
'Tempus Fugit' Recap and Commentary
The season, possible series, finale kicks off with some spectacular shooting sequences. I loved it when Ichabod just wiped that hat off him like it was nothing. Abbie pulled him away from battle - thus the first major change so already the future is screwed. Or at least that was my impression before the episode conveniently ends with everything being perfect. Abbie does sound like a raging lunatic to Past Ichabod to try and get out of the cell and I wouldn't have blamed him if he never believed her, but she does make sense to him. It proves that no matter what time they're in, they'll still be able to understand one another. Katrina is after Ichabod and already she finds out Abbie has landed in the past with her from a wounded soldier. The hunt is on!
Abbie is a force and an asset in the 1770s. She used alcohol as a disinfectant and helped Ichabod solve the case of the beheadings. Abbie really bigs up the situation here, saying "history is off the rails" and God how I wish that were true. The suspense in that moment, the urgency: it was so exciting. I wouldn't have been so disappointed by the end if it wasn't a storyline that was given so much meat. Ichabod getting told off by that colonel wasn't nice, nor was it when he made some comments about Abbie. "If you want her, buy her at auction". I thought Abbie was going to kick him in the balls and I would have helped. Ichabod manages to convince him to let him take Abbie to the 'runaway slaves camp' but we all know Ichabod would never do that. I loved the ride in the carriage and how uncomfortable it made Abbie. She talks about Katrina in order to convince Ichabod about her. It's actually really sweet and reminds us about why Ichabod and Katrina fought so hard for each other in season one, but went to shit in season two. Abbie convinces Ichabod to take her to see Benjamin Franklin. May the madness ensue.
In rides Abraham a.k.a. the Horseman. It's not even the same actor but he's never been scarier, at least, not since season one. I love the music in the background too, so loud and frantic and really heightens the sense of fear. Katrina arrives and says some chilling things: "But Ichabod has betrayed me too. He has joined with another woman and together they're a formidable foe to us both. So they both must die. So let me help you. Find them... and kill them." Chills. Then Katrina kills someone with her powers. Here, she's ruthless and hungry for blood. I do quite like it actually as now she's in control, but I really do miss the good ol' Katrina. Having Abraham never speak is really distracting as we can just tell it's not the same actor. Never mind.
The scenes with Benjamin Franklin are simply wonderful. Franklin is so open-minded and lots of fun around Abbie. I bet she loves that she met him, I know I would. He totally believes her and is so curious about the future. I love that Abbie revealed he's on the one-hundred-dollar bill. It's probably better than Jefferson is on the two-dollar bill as people are more likely to have that than the one-hundred one. We'll not burst his bubble though. Abbie tells Franklin of Katrina when Ichabod is not around and they conclude to reverse the spell so none of this ever happened, but as always, there's a time limit. And it's off to see Grace Dixon, Abbie's ancestor, in the flesh. Ichabod returns and they are about to head for Frederick's Manor when the Horseman walks in. It's a great fight scene with Ichabod and Abbie against the Horseman, and even Franlin has created a bomb to help. But the Horseman is too quick and beheads Franklin with ease. Vile. But so good. The bomb explodes and the Horseman escapes.
Ichabod has Abbie locked up again. He blames Abbie for Frankin's death but Abbie tries to convince him again. Back to square one. Abbie reveals the Horseman's ally is Katrina and that she is pregnant with their son. She also tells him to look at her cellphone and the password is his birthday (which is odd to have someone else's birthday as your password). The colonel dismisses Ichabod, which is heart-breaking for him, and he returns home. We get our first glimpse of the home he shared with Katrina. Katrina acts sketchy and a little on edge when he talks to her. She begins to control a knife on the table that is ready to stab him in the back but as luck would have it, General Washington requires his presence. Katrina lets him go, and if she
really wanted Ichabod dead, she could have just done it.
Ichabod goes to take a look at Abbie's cellphone. It's simply marvellous to see him with a cellphone in the 1770s. Hilarious when the phone vibrates and he gets a little shock. I've always wanted to see what people would make of cellphones hundreds of years ago and how amazed they would be by them. "What devilry is this?" He plays a video of himself trying to take a selfie but takes a video instead with Abbie in the background. Love this. "I assure you we were not eating waffles... we were forging a nation." Abbie looks for a way out of the cell as this is all happening and proves that she doesn't need a man to save her by beating up the colonel. He definitely deserved it. Deserved it so, so much. She did it so easily too; he was all talk, no action. "Now that's true American strength." The movie on Abbie's phone was enough to convince Ichabod to believe her and it's a glorious moment when he does.
"Everything you said was true. We're partners."
"More than that, we're friends."
Abbie and Ichabod walk through the forest where Ichabod is having a hard time believing Katrina was evil. "There was a time when she was good, and she loved you. She saved my life. Yours too." That's the Katrina I knew and loved and wanted back. "That Katrina's gone." Like a knife to the heart, but it's true. Got to learn to accept that. "The seeds must have been there. How did I not see it?" Ichabod rationalises. A lot of us didn't Ichabod, and that was due to poor writing. Katrina tends to the colonel who Abbie beat up. She finds out where Abbie and Ichabod are and delivers a killer line. "It's simple really. I'm a witch." Then kills the colonel. Love it!
It's a really sweet moment when Abbie meets her ancestor in the flesh. She believes her pretty quickly too when she realises she's the witness. They get to work on the spell reversal and I loved when Ichabod helped out by handing over the ingredients, he seemed so proud. I do wish Abbie and Grace had more time to talk, but the Horseman and Katrina arrive. Ichabod goes out to fight them but Abbie must stay with Grace to cast the spell. They say goodbye with "lefttenant" and Abbie gives him a hug. "We hug it out." Katrina gets the walls down and lets the Horseman inside.
The fighting between Ichabod and the Horseman is so exciting juxtaposed with Abbie and Grace casting the spell. I do like seeing Abbie be the one to cast the spell, really shows how powerful she can be too. The spell was far too easy though and the entire time travel aspect of the show was over at the snap of a finger. I did love the entire moment though, with all the flashbacks of the series leading up to the point the time door spell was cast in the first place. We arrive at the end of the previous episode with Abbie's and Katrina's memories intact but nothing changed history. Katrina isn't happy though, explaining she was making things right and attacks Abbie with her powers. She lifts her in the air, ready to kill her. Ichabod tells her no, and Katrina explains that she killed their son.
Ichabod eyes a knife and is about to grab it (coincidentally similar to the one Katrina was going to kill him with) when Katrina notices and brings it over to her. It's pretty remarkable, having Katrina use her powers against Abbie while fighting Ichabod at the same time by swiping him with the knife. He overpowers her and knocks the Grimoire out of her hands, causing Abbie to fall to the ground. Then he plunges the knife into his wife. They lower to the ground where Katrina sees the spirit of Jeremy/Henry. He reaches out for his mother and she willingly goes to him in death. Her body starts to fade away, leaving a distraught Ichabod. All that fighting for her vanquished in an instant. Abbie tells him he had no choice, but Ichabod said he did. "We all did."
It appears some morning has arrived as it turns to light outside. Jenny and Irving run inside where Jenny convinces Abbie that Irving is good again. Abbie hugs him, happy to have her family together. She's lucky, since Ichabod lost two of his in the space of two episodes - his son and his wife. Really sad actually, I hope if we get a third season, the losses will affect Ichabod somehow instead of brushing it under the rug. The gang seem to be happy to be moving on though, that it's all over. But there are still dangers ahead and they have each other to get through it. We end the season (or series) with Ichabod looking into the room that has caused him so much pain, and Abbie asks him if he's ready. "I'm ready, leftenant."
Episode Verdict
It was a great episode but it didn't reach its full potential, and ended the season with a bit of a sour taste in my mouth. Obviously season two was not perfect by any means. Far from it. There have been some shining episodes amongst an uneven season and there were moments that I'm grateful for. Season two
had to have been a learning experience for the writers and a pretty big horror story for them - they just cannot make season three any worse, right? I'm sure they'll look at season two as a whole to know what not to do with season three. That is if, of course, the show is renewed, and I'm pretty sure it will be.
The finale wasn't anywhere near as great as the season one finale, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a great episode itself. For about 38 minutes, it was. It was fast, exciting and something I always wanted to see - Abbie in the past interacting with the 1770s Ichabod before the series began. The scene with Franklin was a glorious moment and the fight between Ichabod and the Horseman and Katrina was riveting. I would honestly love to have seen more from the past instead of just condensed into one episode. I know we had the beginning of the time-travel-arc at the end of episode seventeen, but that's still not enough past-goodness for me. It was so enjoyable but I wanted more. So much more.
I didn't like that the spell was so easily reversed. I loved that Abbie turned to her ancestor for help and displayed her witchy abilities, but it was resolved far too quickly and conveniently. I know I get a lot of hate for being a Katrina fan, but I hated that they killed her off. It just proves that the entire turning her evil and going back in time was all to just dispatch her at the end of the season. It's what the fans want, right? And what better way to end the season than to pander to those fans that have been so hateful against the fictional character and this show? Problem solved. I wouldn't have minded Katrina dying so much if she wasn't thrown under the bus. I hate that they've turned this once-valuable asset to the characters, whose love and sympathy for others was her weakness, to this hateful, evil witch at the drop of a hat. I get that some seeds were planted in order for her to be evil but I still don't buy into the killing Ichabod with a vengeance thing, especially when her jig was up. She should have just got out of there. But nope, fans wanted her dead... so she's dead. There's so much more they could have done with her but it was safest for the writers to just get rid of her. Poor writing at its finest there.
Other than that, great episode. Loved it. I look forward to seeing how season three picks up from here and how the writers go about restoring this show to its former glory. I hope they can do it. I was reminded of why I fell in love with this show in the first place during the back-in-time sequence - Abbie and Ichabod's kick-ass friendship and partnership against evil.
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What did you guys think of the episode? Let me know in the comments!
About the Author - Gavin Hetherington
Award-winning author of 'Abyssal Sanctuary: Remnants of the Damned'. Gavin joined SpoilerTV on August 9, 2014 and will be reviewing 2 Broke Girls, Mistresses, Orange is the New Black, Pretty Little Liars, Salem and Sleepy Hollow in the 2014-15 season. Gavin's favourite shows include Charmed, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Desperate Housewives, The Walking Dead, Once Upon a Time, Revenge, Scandal and much more. You can contact him at gavin@spoilertv.com.
I have a love/hate relationship with this finale. Did you guys enjoy it too?
ReplyDeleteI personally loved it. But I also think that the spell was broken way too easily, I mean, u need a very powerful grimoire that has been lost for years to cast it and then to reverse the spell u just say a few words that are said by someone non-magical? Not very good writing. And the Katrina turning evil was poorly written, I loved her when she was evil but it came out of nowhere, I mean, she sides with Henry because he tells her that he killed Moloch to save her? That´s a lie, given that Moloch "betrayed" Henry, so he killed him, he could not have cared less for Katrina or his father. And I also think that Katrina would have been a great Big Bad for a whole season or half season, not just 2 episodes. I´m one of the few that liked Katrina, but she was annoying wanting to save Henry when all he had done was screw them over and proven to them that he wouldn´t change. Still, I hope it gets renewed, hope that if it does, Orion and Hawley come back.
ReplyDeleteI feel bad for Katia Winter, it was not her fault the writers made a mess of her character, such a good actress, that´s mainly why I liked Katrina. Hope she finds something to work on soon
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you loved it, and I did love the episode but I also hate it at the same time if that makes sense haha. I loved most of it at least. Yeah, I get that, though Abbie does have witch blood in her veins, she's very inexperienced but all it took was her to repeat a spell three times to send her home (Wizard of Oz?). I agree with you on your confusion. I believe in the end though, Henry did love his mother and she loved him, so it was sweet to see him appear to her as she lay dying. But still, in what world would Katrina choose an evil son over her loving husband who has done everything for her? Never mind, you're right, the sudden urge to kill made no sense.
ReplyDeleteI would have taken Katrina any which way as long as she was still in the show. But now she's gone. Dead. Quite heart-broken.
Yeah, I do feel so sorry for her too. This was her job and she loved doing it... until she got hate from fans who hated her character and blamed her for the poor direction season 2 went. Now she's out of a job because of them and none of it was her fault. I think she's a good actress too and the only way is up for her :)
ReplyDeleteI agree with your verdict. While it wasn't bad (I liked it much more than most of S2), it still missed some potential. Maybe it would've worked better as a two-parter, since it really felt a little rushed with the very easy reversible time travel spell.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I think the writers had no choice at this point than to give her an exit. As far as I know, Katia Winter has been unhappy with her role for a while and questioned whether she wanted to continue or not. So I guess this really was the safe road.. even if they could have given her another exit.
The character development wasn't well done (= they screwed up) but I think, if they get a renewal, they now have a good point to start over.
She has witch blood? I didn´t remember that. It´d be cool if she started practising and became a witch, if the show gets renewed, god, when will they announce it? :(
ReplyDeleteI never usually comment on this stuff but this is ridiculous. The fact that fans can now get an actress fired is insane. I feel so bad for Katia. I'm not pro Katrina nor a hater, but her 180° turn on Icabod was ridiculous. Being tempted by darkness? Yeah. But killing her husband? Hell no. Not once, not ONCE they hinted at this. I hate that it turned out this way. Katrina was good when she was a supporting character. She didn't have to die. Anyway, the finale was cool but I'm really having a hard time understanding what the writers did. They messed up when they put Abbie on the background and they messed up even more with Katrina.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Grace Dixon is her ancestor who helped her reverse the spell, so Abbie and Jenny both have witch blood. That's why a lot of people were confused as to why Jenny and Abbie weren't affected by the bell in episode seventeen. They may not announce a renewal or cancellation until May once they see how The Following does.
ReplyDeleteWe'll see if it works with season three whether ratings go up or down. I don't think ratings were all Katrina's fault, it was a poorly-written season in general. But yeah, it is all about pleasing the fans but the writers should have told the story they wanted to tell because as soon as the fans had some sway in the writing, that's when things started to go downhill.
ReplyDeleteYou just have to see some posts, all there is are comments saying DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD, which I hate because I liked Katrina. And the season was good IMO, though I donñt understand why they killed Moloch so soon, he was the Big Bad for the whole series and they just kill him in a second, and I didn´t see where the writers wanted to go from there, bc I don´t believe for a second that the whole Katrina turning evil plot was planned from the begginning because then they would have develop it and hint it right away and with some logical explanation
ReplyDeleteSeriously hoping we who love this show do not have to "hug it out" if it gets cancelled. There is so much that is good in Sleepy Hollow and it would be such a shame if it is all lost to the twitter boo-birds and the reactive writers. There were many great moments in rendering the past, especially those brief ones with the exceptional Alice and her instant rapport with Abbie. As you said, I would love for the cast to make more trips back in time ( given that we get more time).You brought up some of the best scenes - I see that Len Wiseman himself directed the exciting opening battle sequence. Of course, my favorites are always those wee moments with Ichabod tangling with modern madness. (And I know you are British so you may not know that the $2. bill is not used as much as the $100. one - it just didn't catch on) But I must say that I was very moved by Ichabod's holding Katrina as she died - their love had been corrupted but it had initially spanned centuries. I love Sleepy Hollow and will be devastated if it ended last night.
ReplyDeleteWhy!!! did she have to go! I'm like Fuck I don't even care about whats next anymore, I hated the whole rift this season.
ReplyDeleteSame. That rift and separating between characters, the bickering and fighting, was awful to watch. Dragged the show down and it ended with the death of the one who was always the kindest... until the writers decided to get rid of her.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. A lot of what happened was anticlimactic.
ReplyDeleteMy comments just got censored out and I am confused because they were bland as bland can be. At any rate, rather than type an even blander version I shall just say this show brought me much viewing enjoyment and I hope we are not all hugging it out over a cancellation. Was a rollicking ride to the past and I enjoyed the episode but am left with that ever so sad moment of Ichabod's holding his wife's body. He is going to need more than Yolanda's radio chat show for advice now. Wonderful Sleepy Hollow - I love you.
ReplyDeleteAww yeah, this show has brought many viewing enjoyments. Sure loved that ride to the past and I don't think we'll ever get that image of Ichabod holding Katrina out of our heads. At least he cared. Haha sure will need more than that, but we are there for him :)
ReplyDeleteYou know in a strange way, the way the group looked and walked in the end made it seem like they were saying "All is right now, it's as if Katrina Crane never existed, we can move on to better plots" ....and then the next day I read an recent interview of TM's saying something close to that. Disgusted!
ReplyDeleteKatrina Crane had far more potential than any present character on the show (yes I include the witnesses) Good or bad she could have been moulded into so much. If an novice writer like me can see that, but not experienced ones running the show......shame.
Good review Gavin, neutral yet passionate in your words as ever.
I actually just finished watching the episode about 10 minutes ago and the only thing I can come up to summarize my feelings is "well, that was underwhelming".
ReplyDeleteFavorite scenes:
-they handled the slavery thing better than I expected them to. The look on Abbie's face when the officer said that Ichabod could buy her on the auction block was priceless.
-Everything Franklin. His readiness to believe Abbie and his delight at his inventions still being around in the future. But mostly, his glee at being on the $100 bill and Jefferson only on the $2 (yes, they are useless, I worked as a teller for quite some time and the only people who wanted them were grandparents who thought they were a novelty for their 5 yr old grandchildren's birthday cards)
-Abbie rescuing herself from the Colonel. Loved that she kicked his ass and did so with ease...bet he wishes he would've believed her about those advancements in hand to hand combat!
-Grace Dixon. Everything about Abbie's ancestor was awesome. I love that she recognized Abby as a Witness and that we got to see Abbie perform the spell.
-the series montage shown when the spell was reversed. They picked some great moments and we even got a brief glimpse of Andy again!
Despite the many favorite moments, the last five minutes with everything reseting to right before the Traveller's spell was cast and Katrina's death was so anticlimactic. There was so much wasted potential in not only this episode, but the season as a whole. I like Katia Winter and I have enjoyed Katrina's transition to the dark side but maybe that's because I see where those seeds were sown even in S1 and others do not see those moments in the same light I do. At any rate, I hope to see Katia in one of the new pilots for the 2015-2016 season. She is a great actress and deserves a writing team that can write to her strengths.
Episode verdict - meh, underwhelming conclusion to a high energy episode that capped off a mediocre season.
I hope we get a S3 but I hope the writers/showrunner learn from this. I began rewatching S1 over the weekend and the reason IMO that it worked so well was because it was action packed, the stakes were high and Abbie and Crane were front and center despite getting the assist from supporting characters like Jenny and Irving. If they want to keep Jenny and Irving as regulars, I would be good with that. I'd even be good with Hawley returning for a handful of episodes but if they want a S3 to be even remotely as successful as S1, then they need to return to what made that season an unmitigated success and was sorely lacking from S2 - action, urgency and the Witness bond.
So I wrote a long post above but it's waiting in moderation so for now, I'll just say that it was underwhelming and I'll explain why when my comment is released from moderation :-)
ReplyDeleteIt was mostly hate-hate for me. I figured Katrina was going to die to please the most vocal fans and in the end it is this fan pandering, bad writing in general, and a complete lack of direction and forethought into season two's whole storyline that makes this show very easy for me to drop. Whether it is renewed or not, Sleepy Hollow is done for me.
ReplyDeleteThanks so much for reading and sharing your thoughts. Agree with you totally. I hate thinking they can just move on from her and just pretend like she never even happened, that's upsetting. I haven't read that interview with Tom Mison but I am disgusted just thinking about it. So cruel. Yeah, I think everybody but the writers of the show saw the potential in Katrina.
ReplyDeleteDid you share a link in it? That usually means a moderator has to check the link isn't to a bad website or something. I look forward to reading your comment.
ReplyDeleteKatia didn't "have to step in" because fans were "hating and blaming" her "all over twitter." She was just repeating what she'd already said in an interview released the same time. Seriously, where are these tweets at Katia attacking and blaming her? I always see this accusation from Katrina fans but they never deliver. Now I'm sure people have sent her mean tweets but the same has happened to Nicole and, really, every celebrity on Twitter
ReplyDeleteNope, but I may have used colorful language - sometimes those get put into moderation on me even when it's not the f-bomb!
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't blame you Dahne. I'm pretty sure a lot of people will feel the same way you do. How can we trust a season three will be any better when they've poorly written the second season? They may as well let the fans write the show, and that's not the kind of show I want to watch. I want to see their story, their ideas. I hate fan pandering so much, especially when they start to gloat about it. They ruin all the good shows. I'm sorry you're dropping the show whether renewed or not, but I don't blame you, and if I wasn't the reviewer for the show, I might have done the same.
ReplyDeleteI look forward to reading it even more now :D
ReplyDeleteLOL! Well, now I'm afraid my comment will be as underwhelming as I thought the episode was!
ReplyDeletehttp://variety.com/2015/tv/news/sleepy-hollow-season-2-finale-tom-mison-1201439685/
ReplyDeleteIf the finale was meant to tie it all in a neat bow, or to put it more truthfully, cancel out season 2. Then the way the writers puppeteered Ichabod this season cancelled out Season 1 for me too. This was never there original plan.
I guess it goes both ways. I can't really prove fans were hating on her although you kinda proved my point at the end as every celebrities really do get all sorts of tweets thrown at them and that's what being famous entails, so it is unavoidable. But at the same time you can't prove they didn't send them. It's been a month since it happened, so finding those tweets will be hard to locate, but when I've seen live tweets by following the Sleepy Hollow hashtag, people use colourful language not just to the character of Katrina, but to the actress herself. If you care to look, then you will find.
ReplyDeleteHaha no chance :P
ReplyDeleteYeah, I hate that interview.
ReplyDeleteThanks for that link - I missed this one somehow. I love Tom Mison but his answers sounded more like the company line than what he really thought.
ReplyDeleteIn five episodes, I have lost all enthusiasm for this show, and I hope that it is cancelled. The writers deserve nothing less after the plot shortcuts and whiplash inducing u-turns they took to satisfy the fanbase at the expense of solid, creative, and convincing storytelling. I'm a loyal TV fan. I haven't left a series that I've watched more than a season of in over a decade, but I have come to the conclusion that if the writers don't care about their characters and plot points than why should I.
ReplyDeleteVery true, why should we care if they don't care about their characters themselves. I'm a writer and I am in the midst of writing a book series and if a certain character got as much backlash as Katrina did, I would never change what I had in mind for them just because people don't like them. It's my story, just like Sleepy Hollow is their story, and I care too much about my characters to throw them under the bus because a few people are unhappy with them. It does show how much the writers cared (or lack thereof) about the quality of their show. I'm very much like you, if I stick a show out after 1 season, I never drop it, but lately I have dropped a few after a while when I found their quality to be dwindling. I loved this show in season one but never has a show completely flipped for me in such a short amount of time and the reason being is because the writers didn't have enough faith in their story to execute it the way they wanted, but instead pander to the haters for fear of cancellation. I'd rather the show be cancelled for what it is, rather than be renewed for what it isn't. Thanks for sharing your thoughts :)
ReplyDeleteI'm not gonna get too deep into my thoughts as I did that last night, and I'm still really annoyed, but... overall, solid episode. Entertaining for sure. However I am blown away at how BADLY they handled getting rid of a character. Aside from the fact that they were probably forced, it was just too quick to be even remotely believable, the line from Ichabod about there "being signs" is utter bullcrap, and, like you I was left with a somewhat sour taste in my mouth. Katrina's descent into darkness could have been great, but it needed to be realistic. Even her extreme grief isn't a good enough motive IMO, she's the ENTIRE reason the witnesses are even fighting together, her whole life was devoted to it. Even just a few scenes of dialogue earlier in the season, where they could have addressed her growing conflicted-ness, would have made it all more bearable.
ReplyDeleteAlso why did they suddenly make it where witches are like Buffy-vamps and turn into dust? I raised my eyebrow when it happened to Henry, I assumed it had something to do with him being a Horsemen, but nope, Katrina did too. And yet in season 1 we are shown the exact opposite, with Rev Knapp. He wasn't even rotting. But then again these last few episodes seemed to undo a LOT of established mythology. Whatevs. I need a month or so to cool off, and then I'll do a rewatch of the whole series.
I liked part of but hated the ending Ichabod killing his wife was so wrong and then in the end Ichabod standing there looking all alone . Abbie with both Jenny and Ivring just didn't seem fair to me. I won't be back for season 3 if they get one because I feel fox and the writers gave in to every the Abbie fan wanted and none of what the Katrina fans wanted. Here is what I have heard fan say they wanted and what Fox did.
ReplyDelete1 they didn't want Hawely to be a love interest for Abbie and gone from the show. Done
2 wanted Ivring to come back and be good. Done
3 wanted less Katrina on the show done
4 wanted more of Abbie doing thing like a couple Done
5 wanted Henry dead. Done
6 wanted Katrina dead done
Katrina fans
1 wanted her written better. Not done
2 wanted her to stay good and on team witness side not done
3 stay with Ichabod. Not done.
To me that shows they didn't care about the feeling of Katrina fans and I will not watch a show that writes the stories instead of the writters
Off question what is the sires called and are any in print would like to check them out I love to read have close to 900 on my kindle
ReplyDeleteNo their is a lot of hate out their for the actress one site that takes great joy in calling her names and tearing anything she say interview or tweets
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing your thoughts, even though you already did last night, appreciate that :)
ReplyDeleteI agree, I honestly wouldn't have minded if the whole getting rid of a character wasn't painfully bad. If they felt she had to die because they were forced to do it, fair dos, but at least do that character justice while doing so. You're right, she is one of the biggest reasons Ichabod and Abbie are fighting evil, but I guess they forgot all of that when they decided to give up on Katrina and not even try to save her like they did Irving. Jenny even said in the last episode "we don't give up on those we love". Guess they just didn't love, or like, Katrina enough to try and save her. Not just that, but the whole mess has reflected badly on the other characters too. Just too much bad writing to just get over this one.
Don't know whose idea it was to have witches turn to dust. I need a serious re-watch as I can't remember Rev Knapp. I watch too much to keep all my shows in check. I'll have to join you in doing that re-watch.
YES! EXACTLY. This is what fans need to understand, yet social media gives the illusion that you have more power. And unfortunately writers are letting a few vocal people affect their storytelling. THAT. IS. WRONG. That is NOT the mark of a good writer. Shows ebb and flow, sometimes for them to get to a satisfying place the story might have to take a detour in an area you don't like. Yet today people are so worried about instant gratification they take to the internet to declare how they will stop watching the show because of minor details. It's sad, and pathetic, and depressing. But I lost a lot of respect for this show due to them not having the balls to trust themselves and tell the story they WANT TO TELL. Because writers who are writing for themselves are generally much stronger and it comes through in the storytelling.
ReplyDeleteThanks for asking, the series is called Abyssal Sanctuary. The first book is available for free on Amazon for the Kindle, 'Remnants of the Damned'. :) It was self-published and while it was edited, it's being freshly edited again. Second book is out October 6, 2015 :)
ReplyDeleteThe level of disingenuous found here and else ware is remarkable. Was it not enough most critics complained about Katrina, the Crane Marriage and the marginalization of Abbie, et al? Or that the ratings decreased sharply? Not even a producer for the show's creators admitting the Katrina/Ichatrina focus was a failed storyline they attempted? How about the show being brought to the verge of cancellation which everyone had warned would happen?
ReplyDeleteThe meanie fans "got Katia fired," huh? No. A secondary character fourth-billed in the credits was killed off. Period. One that originally was going to be killed in the first season. The fact that she was handed the focus on a silver platter proves how favored the character was by the show's powers despite being unpopular in the fandom. Katrina/Katia was given every opportunity to be great and successful yet it was a complete and spectacular disaster for 'Sleepy Hollow.' Her fans refuse to accept this and instead blame people for not liking what the show became.
Can't keep blaming everyone/thing else.
Love this and I agree. Do you mind if I tweet it to a few like minded friends?
ReplyDeleteSo glad we agree on that. If they don't love their product, it shows through their storytelling and then we, as viewers, can tell and start to realise just how badly this show has fallen to the fan pandering. Definitely think writers who listen to those vocal fans are wrong too. Just why? They had a really good thing going with this show, did they really think changing what the whole show was about would satisfy anyone? Sure, those shouting 'ding dong the witch is dead' got what they wanted but they have to realise the dip in quality due to the writers trying to wipe their asses.
ReplyDeleteI never want to see this site. Any site that promotes hatred for any reason is a despicable site.
ReplyDeleteSo sad.
ReplyDeleteWow. Good comment. Too true. Thanks for sharing that, I definitely agree. Fan pandering at its best. Letting the fans take over the show is a surefire way to get it killed.
ReplyDeleteWhat you choose to ignore is that the writers completely failed this season. Katrina could have been a MUCH better character had she been written better by the writers. The entire quality of the show was what got the ratings down in the first place, and as stated before, ratings started low for this season and ended low. Katrina had nothing to do with that, it was the writers. Yes, the whole thing was a failed attempt, but why? The writers. Then they chose to pander to the haters which was so painfully obvious by the whiplash-change of her character in the last few episodes. The show is on the verge of cancellation because of poor quality in the writing.
ReplyDeleteNo. Katia Winter is a MAIN cast member and has been since the first season. Yes, the show stars Tom Mison and Nicole Beharie as the two leads, but Orlando Jones, Katia Winter, Lyndie Greenwood and John Noble were also MAINS. She wasn't secondary at all, she's always been a main character. Shows do have more than 2 main characters, you know. Some shows have loads, like Lost did, Heroes, Desperate Housewives etc. List goes on and on. Katia has been a main character since day one, she just had secondary-character material in season one because of her situation. She was given more focus in the second season because, newsflash, she escaped Purgatory and was reunited with her love. However, if the writers knew how to write for her, the material she was given wouldn't have fallen short and people wouldn't have criticised her character for it.
Katrina was never given the opportunity to be great, the writers never went there with her. They squandered her potential from the very first episode of season 2. They chose to make her try and redeem the villains and other things that even I'm annoyed about, but that's all the writers fault. So I'll continue to blame the writers for the death of this show and the vocal fans who have expressed hate because that is what happened. It's not my fault if you choose to be blind to that because if you watch the show properly, you'll see it.
No I don't mind
ReplyDeleteAny plans to put your book on Google Play? That's my media consumption destination (I really don't like Amazon digital goods for some reason, maybe it's cuz I have an Android and the Google apps are just better overall)... I did just snag up your book on Amazon but if it might show up in Google Play anytime soon I'll save it for later. (I also dislike Kindle's Android app lol.)
ReplyDeleteYeah, feel like I've tired my point out at this point, but sometimes people choose to ignore them, so I have to reiterate sometimes :) I do still think the show is about Ichabod and Abbie, but they're supposed to have this life around their witnesses job. It can't be about them 24/7 and it's nice to have the other main characters get in too.
ReplyDeleteI didn't because I was taught that we watch show for enjoyment not to tall the writer how to write their stories maybe if the Abbie fans let the we may of got better stuff but because of the stuff out it social media the kept changing it and making it worst the story line was not flowing smoothly
ReplyDeleteOk I ah it will read it and let you know how I like it it got a lot of good reviews
ReplyDelete"What you choose to ignore is that the writers completely failed this
ReplyDeleteseason. Katrina could have been a MUCH better character had she been
written better by the writers."
Actually I've said that continually. Her fans just refuse to acknowledge that the focus on Katrina and Ichatrina (an unpopular character and pairing that detracted from what made the show popular) was an epic failure.
Furthermore, the ratings for the season didn't start out "low," they were just lower than they were at the beginning of Season One. They dropped sharply as critics turned sour about show due to where it went. Again, something Katrina fans won't admit.
"Katrina had nothing to do with that, it was the writers."
Katrina is a fictional character just like Abbie, Ichabod, etc. So I don't understand this statement. It was the writers' inexplicable decision to make all things lead back to Katrina in Season two and to focus on her.
"Yes, the whole thing was a failed attempt, but why? The writers. Then
they chose to pander to the haters which was so painfully obvious by the
whiplash-change of her character in the last few episodes."
You're confused. If anyone was pandered to it was Katrina fans who begged aaall season one for more Katrina and then didn't ask for better writing when they made her the focus of Season two. It was a failure before the last three episodes of the season. That's why one of the producers said they tried Katrina/Ichatrina arcs out and it failed.
"The show is on the verge of cancellation because of poor quality in the writing."
...Which the decision to focus on Katrina was part of. Look at the critics from both mainstream critics and fans - they're all in agree on the same points. But all Katrina fans want to do is put their head in the sand and blame everything/body else.
In addition, "main" and "secondary" aren't mutually-exclusive. She
is a main/regular cast member, but she is a secondary/supporting
character. And if her fans wanted better writing for Katrina they should have advocated for it instead of only caring about her relationship with Ichabod and having the show focused on her.
"Katrina was never given the opportunity to be great, the writers never went there with her."
BS. They gave her more than any other fourth-billed secondary character is given. They made it so that everything came back to her and she still didn't shine. Could it have been better/more logical? Sure. That's why a lot of fans were calling for better material last fall, for her to not be a damsel in distress, for her to have agency, etc. Except these were general fans and Abbie fans; Katrina fans were happy with what they got. As long as she was with Ichabod. They didn't have Katia's back with trying to get her better material.
If you watched the show for enjoyment why are you complaining now?
ReplyDeleteAnd you do realize that Katrina fans begged for more focus on her all through Season One, right?
Being basically raped by her own son in a cliche Mystical Pregnancy Trope IS sexist, yes. And it was an awful storyline.
ReplyDeleteBut leave it a Katrina fan! I rest my case, LOL.
Demonic pregnancies are one horror trope I still have yet to tire of. But still, sexist? LOL. No. Not at all. Weird? Sure. Creepy? Yes. Sexist? Um... not in the slightest. Like seriously. lol.
ReplyDeleteAnd the story naturally, yes, naturally had to give her more in season 2 because she escaped Purgatory. That was why she didn't get more in season 1. All season 1 Ichabod fought to free Katrina, so when he did free her, what did you expect? She'd be in 1 scene an episode? She was the love of his life but due to poor writing, we didn't really get to see that. But it explains why she got more in season 2. Maybe you should re-watch the show from the beginning?
ReplyDeleteSorry didn't check the internet about this shoe until this season first show I have done it for won't for any other show I like, because it is no longer enjoyable but I do have one more show I like it has been on for 8 season Murdock mysteries
ReplyDelete"BS. They gave her more than any other fourth-billed secondary character is given. They made it so that everything came back to her and she still didn't shine."
ReplyDeleteDo you not understand what an ensemble show is? On Buffy, was the "fourth-billed" person any less important than the "second billed person"? No. All the characters were important and all had an effect on the story. Your statement is simply illogical.
Again, the ratings started out lower but they were still good. They continued to dip sharply throughout the season, especially during and after Katrina-centric episodes.
ReplyDeleteIn Season One ratings dipped most during the middle when Crane Family Drama started up.
But hey - if you want to think it had nothing to do with Katrina-focus despite mainstream critics and fans all being in agreement then go for it!
"A fictional character is not to blame for a decrease in ratings, but the writers."
*sigh* Never mind.
"Katrina fans were not pandered to at all. It was natural for Katrina to
get more when escaping Purgatory because she's important in Ichabod's
life and she was on the side of good, fighting evil a lot longer than
Ichabod and Abbie. I think you're confused with how main characters work
on shows."
Katrina was supposed to die in Season One - at least twice. Furthermore this isn't about Katrina getting more because she was out of Purgatory, it's about pushing her to the forefront, focusing on the Crane Marriage, and making everything come back to Katrina. That's what they did. Katrina fans LOVED it because they begged for more of her in Season One. Once the writers listened her fans didn't complain about how she was written, they soaked it up. All they cared about was Katrina being with Ichabod. They got too comfortable because they thought Katrina would be the new lead and Abbie would just be working on the sidelines unless called upon to assist the new team of Ichabod and Katrina.
When it became apparent that wasn't happening (and after Katrina brought the show to the verge of cancellation) they turned on the writers who gave Katia everything, suddenly they supposedly care about how Katrina was written, NOW they don't think writers should listen to fans or care about ratings, and NOW they say the writers should stick to their original vision (which if they had Katrina would never be pushed to the forefront).
Like it or not, Abbie and Ichabod are the leads - Tom the leading man, Nicole the leading lady. And yes, Willow was "less important" than Buffy in the sense that everything centered on and came back to Buffy.
ReplyDeleteExcept no one is saying anything about her getting "more," it's that she was pushed to the forefront and everything made to come back to her as if she's a lead.
ReplyDeleteYet you just contradicted yourself in the same sentence. Plus, you have been complaining about her getting more. In fact, that's the basis of your argument. She is a lead, but honestly the whole thing was not as bad as people have made it out to be. Naturally she would get more, did you expect her to come out of Purgatory and do absolutely nothing? The writers could have incorporated her better into the characters but she wasn't going to escape Purgatory and sit around doing nothing.
ReplyDeleteThanks for elaborating on that; I was just going to leave links, LOL.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, Katrina fans had ample opportunity to fight for better writing if that had been a concern of their's. That's why the bizarre defense that "it wasn't Katrina, it was the WRITING of Katrina" is even more ridiculous than it should be.
Yet the SERIES LOW was an Ichabbie episode? Hmm that is strange, an episode Katrina was in for 2 minutes. No fan will know just how much Katrina will be in an episode. Promos can be misleading and focus on one aspect of the episode, but fans didn't just pick and choose those Katrina episodes to watch. There was a big discussion about the ratings in my Spellcaster preview that enlightened things. Maybe you should check that out before rehashing a tired argument that holds no merit?
ReplyDeleteBut you must admit that plenty of VERY vocal Katrina fans spent more time stroking the writers' ego when fans were criticizing the writing for Katrina, instead of actually criticizing the writing. One of the writers of the show was especially receptive to them and labeled them "real fans".
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, I only started interacting with other fans of the show when I took over reviewing Sleepy Hollow for SpoilerTV at the end of last month, so I haven't really been paying attention to the fandom and what people have been doing in the past. Either way it all leads back to the writers. Which writer was it that called them "real fans"?
ReplyDeleteI said there was an outlier, those always exist and good statisticians know you don't focus on them to much you look at the trend. The trend was falling ratings with every Katrina-centric ep. And that one ep with the series low opened with a voice over saying something about Ichabod and Katrina asking them to watch. Yeah, I can imagine plenty of people rage quitting after hearing that ( not to mention the problematic spoiler released by this site that same week and the show fanboying all over the very problematic Thomas Jefferson ).
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm sorry but misleading promos didn't cause viewers to change the channel during the crane date ep. Yeah that was the only ep i know that actually adjusted down in the second half hour.
But we can parse this all we want. The truth is TPTB ( whether the network or the the show ) thought the same thing I did or Katrina wouldn't have turned evil ( like ever ) and she definitely wouldn't have died last night at Ichabod's hand no less. I mean I'm happy about the development and thought it needed but I'll admit it was a rush job. That was a last ditch effort to restore good faith and staunch the flow of bleeding viewers. They did it trying to save a show they knew was already wrecked by the bad decision making.
Gavin, she killed people.
ReplyDeleteShe tried to redeem murderers. Henry killed people and facilitated the murder of many others. Headless murder countless people and kidnap her, hoped to Stockholm her.
I am so confused by your characterization of these characters as "kind".
As far as I'm concerned Henry was escorting Katrina to hell.
I agree that her characterization was terribly written and inconsistent and DEFINITELY that final turn to evil and her death was anti-climatic.
But in no way was the Katrina character ever the facile kind sweet person you characterize.
Even in the first season Katrina was shrewd and was very much willing to sacrifice others' feelings for own autonomy (hello? breaking off that engagement w/ Abraham).
This is one reason why Katrina fans have such a terrible reputation in this fandom (that and the unchecked racism that is rampant among her biggest and most outspoken fans).
You're fans of a character that you've constructed in your minds, not what was shown to us onscreen.
You see this sweet kind woman, but that was NEVER the woman we saw on the show, even with all the terrible wheel-spinning, and lack of agency this season.
She was never that simple.
She was always cryptic and always with her own agenda, from the time she first met Ichabod in Sineater.
You can say that the turn was sloppy, because it was, but you claim that it came from nothing, that they weren't building to evil, then you weren't paying attention.
"Ratings never dipped sharply this season"
ReplyDelete"They already started out low," "they never dipped sharply." Okay, just keep playing these little word games and miss the entire point. *shrug*
"SOME mainstream critics (though I'd love for you to share those critics
with me and where they got their facts from) and SOME fans."
Are you kidding me? Where have you been? EW, The Huntington Post, AV Club, Hollywood Reporter, and TV Guide to name a few. All cited Katrina-focus as something negative.
"Fans online do not represent the millions of fans that watch the show live, or the millions of fans from across the world."
But the fact that so many MORE online fans are unhappy with the show because of Katrina than those who ARE HAPPY does make it more likely than not that a significant number of fans not online or who abandoned the show are also unhappy.
"Again with the Katrina bringing the cancellation to the show. It's like
you don't read everything in front of you. That's not true nor can it be
proven."
You're right, I can't literally walked every fan who ever existed in front of you. All you're doing is attempting to poke little, meaningless holes. The evidence is overwhelming and adds up.
Like I said - keep blaming everyone/thing else.
I don't know how to put it on Google Play, but I'll find out and let you know. Thanks for your interest :)
ReplyDeleteHope you don't mind me just leaving this here....
ReplyDeletehttps://play.google.com/books/publish/
lol. :D
You must have read my comment wrong. Katrina was always the kindest before they turned her character to shit this season. I mention somewhere else in these comments that her trying redeem the villains annoyed me and there we had the slow descent of the writing of her character. I did NOT say Henry or Abraham were kind, just Katrina. Katrina began the show as a helper to the Witnesses, and if it wasn't for her, it all wouldn't have been possible. Her sympathy to those villains was due to her kind nature and she was always willing to help her husband and Abbie. Until the last few episodes where she back flipped so fast we all had to double take and make sure it was the same character. So no, I didn't call the others kind, just Katrina back in the day.
ReplyDeleteKatrina had her reasons to break off her engagement with Abraham, and it's very weird to even hold that against her since she had love with Ichabod, a main character on the show.
And another thing, how dare you associate all Katrina fans in that way, and me. The "terrible reputation" is very bias since you hate Katrina, so obviously you must hate all of her fans. As for racism, I have not seen that nor do I ever want to, but I find it peculiar that the racism is always brought up when it isn't even about race. Never have I ever mentioned Abbie's race so bringing it up there to discredit Katrina fans was a very low move. And don't try to rationalise why we like Katrina. We have our reasons, like you have your reasons to love your characters, so try to respect that. I don't criticise you for liking someone so I'd expect the same to me. If you have had bad experiences with Katrina fans, I apologise on their behalf but I would never ever be racist or ignorant to other's opinions. I always respect other's opinions.
She has been show as kind before, you just choose to ignore it.
Haha well that proves I didn't really try hard enough. I'll get it up as soon as I get the time to and let you know :P Thanks for the link!
ReplyDeleteSame. But I will say this. I did feel like the writers couldn't make up their minds. One moment, they were seemingly building to a Katrina is secretly evil reveal and the next they were hand waving her selfishness and shadiness with that line about compassion for example (blegh).
ReplyDeleteI do believe they trying to sell us on Katrina being good, but the audience just wasn't buying it. Most of us looked at Katrina and her decisions and well, we couldn't imagine her as someone we wanted as a friend, certainly couldn't imagine being with someone like her in a romantic relationship. The damage had already been done.
And yeah, I really wish I could say without a doubt that evil Katrina had always been the plan because the signs were definitely there. And then I wouldn't have to feel weird about what the writers thought they could sell as decent moral choices, about what the felt made for 'interesting' morally grey decisions ( I include Ichabod in this too btw) and how little they credit they gave the audience when they thought we would buy it all hook line and sinker.
Katrina's opening scene was to give Ichabod information about his mission and to beg him to get her out of purgatory....
ReplyDeleteThat is not kind, but in context of how Abbie handled her own captivity in purgatory (saying the exact opposite, telling Ichabod to leave her there) she simply wasn't the kind sweet woman you keep insisting that she was.
Granted that was again due to terrible and sketchy morality written into narrative that I think was a result of terrible writing, and then not following up but spinning in circles and outright forgetting what was in previous episodes, but the fact is that it is canon.
She was selfish in her own mission to redeem risky people, to the detriment of the larger one.
That is not kindness. She didn't do these things because she had a kind heart. She did them because she was personally invested in them, had feelings for them.
Gavin, if you can, you should find the pilot draft. It contains the Katrina that you describe, not the one we actually got.
I didn't come to the internet to check out this show until season 2 and only check out one fan site and that was enough to not check other by the way they were talking about the Character and actress, I don't do twitter or any of those sites
ReplyDeleteI feel like they were totally indecisive about which way they wanted Katina to go and her character suffered because of it, -becoming insufferable to people.
ReplyDeleteThrow in the irritating acting choice to give her a breathy whisper, and make her a huge motivating factor in the main storyline, less the characters actual agency in that, and you get arge numbers of viewers who turn the channel to Scorpion instead.
Sleepy Hollow was never an ensemble show. It has two main characters and then a few supporting characters. Not once have the EPs said this is an ensemble show and it was never treated this way in S1.
ReplyDeleteI don't think the let fans effect their story telling at all. If the ratings hadn't plummeted Katia Winter would still be on the show. The story they were telling wasn't working. Most fans aren't on spoiler tv or twitter complaining they just quit watching.
ReplyDeleteNo show worth it's salt only ever focuses on one or two leads. The reason Supernatural has never been able to get far across the "mediocre" line is because they act like Sam and Dean are the only important ones. Nearly every single best episode or batch of episodes are those that flesh out the side characters and where they are AS important to the plot as Sam or Dean. And Sleepy Hollow has never been Supernatural and from the beginning has been trying to expand their core group, more like in the way of Buffy.
ReplyDeleteAlso the show is named after an effing community, and it's main issue was always that the events felt like they were happening in a bubble that did not affect anyone but those directly involved... Yet whenever they showed signs of fleshing out the town this year, people bitched. It's like Ichabbie fans are allergic to any scene that isn't The Ichabod and Abigail Hour. Ugh. Gross.
The bits that I loved, I loved a lot. The return to what the show is about and it's best quality. The Witneses and their interactions.
ReplyDeleteLoved Abbie getting so many chances to shine and stretch. Loved the reversal of the pilot. Really dug Benjamin Franklin (the only well-known Founding Father who was also anti-slavery).
I enjoyed getting to see Abbie's ancestor interact with her and her once again hinting at mythology.
I loved that the closed the door on the weakest parts of this season and are back to the team we came to love from season one.
This was the first time I was really impressed with both Katia and Katrina. She got to stretch scene chew and be a powerful witch! The road to getting there was bumpy (understatement haha), but I'm glad she went out at least in a good note. And not the boring, indecisive, one we've dealt with all-season.
I know you love her, but there is simply NO WAY you could keep her aboard after all the damage that they did to her, while centering on her and expect the show not to lose ratings as a result.
They had no choice at this point.
I read an interview that said that Goffman's turn was the plan all-along, and they did clearly leave seeds, but those seeds were sloppily sown and weren't tended to or watered.
This assessment is rife with speculation and outright untruths.
ReplyDeleteShe didn't love doing it. She expressed frustration with the quality of Katrina's character in a couple of interviews now.
And there are only so many vocal major fans. While the vast majority did despise the character, due to the whispering and terrible problematic narrative arc she had, the millions of viewers that turned away?
Were simply that.
Viewers who got bored. Not hater fans.
It's a business. The ratings were dropping, the storylines didn't make sense, the framework established in season one was abandoned. The Sleepy Hollow writers this season are not auteurs like David Simon (The Wire) or Vince Gilligan (Breaking Bad). SH writers couldn't keep their mythology together. It honestly does not make sense to blame the show's problems on pandering to fans rather than pursuing the writers' pure artistic vision.
ReplyDeleteIf the season 2 mess either (1) functioned as true art (like The Wire, which never got great ratings but was unquestionably brilliant) or (2) gotten great ratings then the show would have continued down the path of being a soap opera centered on a whispering witch rather than an adventure featuring a man out of time and his modern day partner.
I checked the tags. I found no hating tweets at Katia.
ReplyDeleteCan you remember anything that was said?
There are reams and reams of racism documented caps from Katrina fans on twitter.
One even mocked Abbie as a jailed slave.
Being a 4th billed series regular is not the same as being the lead. SH was not originally an ensemble show like Lost or Desperate Housewives. Originally, it was a show w/ 2 leads and 2 series regulars/secondary characters. Then, the 4th billed character was elevated. It was shocking. I'm trying to remember a situation when I've seen an attempt to displace the lead in the absence of evidence that the secondary character actually had become extremely popular.
ReplyDeleteThe dip in quality came before and those on social media rang the alarm.
ReplyDeleteYou admit that her writing was sloppy and poor and then condemn those who called that out agreeing with you, as having been pandered to.
So, what is the truth?
You know, Nichelle Nichols almost left Star Trek, because she felt her character was underwritten. As a result, "a fan" visited her and explained how important she was.
...And she ended up becoming an icon.
What might have happened had that fan not been "pandered to", using your wording here?
You keep using the phrase "fan pandering" and yet you are also a fan, in a minority position, no less,, bemoaning that fact that your opinions weren't pandered to.
ReplyDeleteSo again, I ask, what is the truth?
If it's fan pandering to the majority of fans, than it definitely would be fan pandering to the minority.
You can't continually whine about being rained on, when everybody is clearly wet, soaked to the bone.
Okay, Gavin.
ReplyDeleteI just want you to look at this particular phrase and you tell me how it comes across:
"Katrina had nothing to do with that, it was the writers."
Katrina is character, who does not actually exist -was written,had nothing to do with with her terribleness.
...Lest we damage the feelings of a fiction.
Just.
Let that marinate.
It is nice, but it would have also been nice to focus on main characters who had compelling storylines and were portrayed well.
ReplyDeleteIt is also nice to see that balanced and not see a show focus on character and fail to give her anything to make her interesting to watch.
Question: If Katrina fans were so disappointed with the writing for the character and the way the she was treated on the show, then why did you like her in the first place? Many people here have been complaining about how poorly written Katrina was from start to finish, and if that's the case, why did you like her so much? I could understand if Katrina started out as complex and interesting character from the beginning and then slowly dissolved into a mess, but fans and critics have been complaining about her character since season 1. Everyone here has admitted that Katrina's character was terribly written. Usually when a character is given shitty writing, it's natural for the audience to turn against them. That's what happens when you create a bad character.
ReplyDeleteIdk, I just find it weird that people are trying to defend a character that they openly admit was horribly written.
I laughed at that! Her interviews. Her tweets, she publicly threw herself under the bus. She didn't even have her OWN character's back. When you agree with fans/critics, etc that your character sucks and you as an actor "can't do anything about it" (which is total bs btw) Blaming the writers, while you're STILL ON THE SHOW, that's just terribly bad form. So many fans of Katia lost a lot of respect for her after her recent interviews on the matter. I mean what actor/actress does that? They were upset b/c she wouldn't take ANY responsibility for her actions, and humiliated the writers, when they were supposed to have each other's backs. I think there was some tension with the cast b/c of that too. (If i remember correctly, the only one she was closest to was "Jenny") I just remember saying to myself, stop talking, stop talking now, b/c if you're trying to make yourself "look like the victim" you're doing a terrible job. I laughed at that, out of shock. Like ok, you're miserable with your character? Well talk about it after the show is over or at least after your character is written off. If she has trouble finding work after this, that's going to be on her. And let's face it, she needs all the work she can get, she's not Charlie Sheen, where she can just bounce back. I think she could use an acting coach that's for sure. I do hope she finds work (b/c being an out of work actor does suck) but after the storm has cleared. I think her words, will follow her for a bit.
ReplyDeleteSeems unfair when there is an f-bomb in the first paragraph of the article...
ReplyDelete"You said in your comment it was because of Katrina, yes a fictional character, that ratings fell, but I told you it was the writers' inability to write well enough to make her fit in with the other cast members. A fictional character is not to blame for a decrease in ratings, but the writers."
ReplyDeleteKatrina does not actually exist and have feelings to hurt. It is okay to hate a terrible rendered character.
It truly is.
Ha - I noticed that! And the post didn't even have an f-bomb - I think I used kicka$$ but that was the worst of it! Weird that it still hasn't posted too, usually only takes an hour or two a the most for moderation - perhaps it just got lost in cyberspace :-(
ReplyDelete"It's like Ichabbie fans are allergic to any scene that isn't The Ichabod and Abigail Hour. Ugh. Gross."
ReplyDeleteYou say that and yet there is plenty of thoughtful and well-written meta about all of the characters on the show, including Katrina coming from those Ichabbie fans.
Meanwhile. I have searched high and low to find even ONE Katrina fan who has done the same, and come up empty, even for the character of Katrina.
This is the closest I've seen and this page is full of delusions and the weird need to the defend the honor of a terrible character.
Yea, it finally posted and I bet @Gavin Hetherington went to bed!
ReplyDeleteno, it's like Katrina stans are still unable to see what is right in front of their faces. Ichabbie fans were screaming for scenes for Jenny/Frank/Headless and others.
ReplyDeleteHaha, I just read your post, I just want to say I still own a $2 bill. (And I'm under 30) it's stashed somewhere. Lol I'm hoping it'll be worth something one day. I just can't throw it away. Lol Had it for years.
ReplyDeleteI left you a short comment. But for w/e reason it needs to be approved. I'm scratching my head, because my comment was not even in the least bit offensive. = /
ReplyDeleteIt's totally me! I'm being censored! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts :-)
ReplyDeleteWell what are the names of these sites that does this.. i want to read for myself..
ReplyDeleteI don't even know how to respond to this, I am one of those hateful fans that you speak of. I am proud that I spoke my mind to the writers about the way things were going on the show. I was not being entertained and I spoke of what I did not like anymore on the show. Yet I am labeled hateful for not falling in love with your favorite character and expressing myself. I am labeled hateful because I did fall in love with the two leads and would rather watch them fight the apocalypse then see the Cranes hash out their dysfunction.
ReplyDeleteIt also makes me scratch my head that now it is bad writing it was bad writing from the begining, something hateful fans was speaking out against. I am also one of those hateful fans who was calling for Katrina to become this badass evil witch because that other stuff she was playing at wasn't working. The same way you loved her other and many others wasn't feeling her, her storyline and the way the road the show was on. You are entitled to your feels shouldn't others be entitled to theirs without being label a hater. I spoke up on twitter same as I am speaking up here.
I understand why the show did what it did. Thinking that they could endear Katrina to the fans if they focused more on her. It didn't work it only showcased more of what people didn't like. As a Katrina fan you were more patient and forgiving I didn't have to be. Katrina fans sees this evil turn as a surprise I know why not things have been going this way since S1. The writing was always weak with Katrina her being more of a plot point than an actual character. Her fans seem to not mind as love as she was told to be the love of Ichabod's life all was well, and excuses for her poor writing was aplenty. Is it our fault that we would not do the same when it came to Abbie and others and spoke out against it. Is it the fans fault that reviewers felt the same way and wrote about gaining the attention of the network.
what I don't get is why Katrina fans thought that there wasn't going to be changes especially after such an huge outcry. There is no one I know who runs a business who isn't going to try and meet the demands of the majority.
Erm no. If you read the notes from whatever press tour just happened you will FOX and everyone involved in the show is very much aware of the so called issues being discussed on social media.
ReplyDeleteYou are mad that fans expressed hate about bad writing. Katrina was given every opportunity that a character could get way more than either Frank or Jenny in S2. No one is blind to what was going on but Katrina fans.The show was setting up Katrina from the start they did it poorly but that is not our fault.
ReplyDeleteYou are mad that more people didn't love and support Katrina not our fault again the writing for her was horrible and when we expressed that we are labeled haters. Maybe if they would have pandered to our hating ways earlier in the season the outcome would have been different. Evil Katrina works this should have happened way earlier.
Wow just wow, the show turned into something that was not in tune to S1 and that is the problem. I could care less about the ratings falling and blame more than one thing on it but yes the Cranes being push to the front is one of those reasons. Storyline counts a lot for what makes one watch a show and the storyline this season focused a lot on the Cranes.
ReplyDeleteIf you wasn't upset with her storyline why are you speaking about all this bad writing now. It didn't just pop up in the last three episodes. The fans and critics didn't vote her off the show the writing did. You sould very bitter, no one wins if the show is cancelled. Katrina wasn't working for a lot of people that is the bottom line. The show didn't turn into a reality show but it did turn into a poorly scripted soap opera featuring the Cranes and Abraham and the public did receive it well and spoke out against it.
It's not the amount of screentime Katrina received but the quality of that screentime. I think everyone expect her to have more screentime coming out of Purgatory but I for one didn't expect the storyline to revolved around that sorry ass redemption plot. I also would have like to see more of their life around the witnesses job also sorry that it didn't work out that way. The problem with screentime is that the majority of it went to one group and Jenny and Frank was left with nothing. The showrunners have a balancing problem and I hope the fix it if they get a next season.
ReplyDeleteThe Katrina fans wanted more Katrina. done. The writers gave you what you wanted except it wasn't good, don't blame that on Abbie fans. Abbie fans wanted a better show period. Abbie fans wanted more of what work and less of what didn't period. The writers care about one thing their paychecks, Abbie pays the bills so of course they are going to showcase her.
ReplyDeleteI never saw Katrina fans asking for better writing, seem to be very satisfied with what they had and exxusing all her behavior as long as she was Ichabod's wife.
I don't understand this at all if Katrina fans were defending her then shouldn't they be as visible as all the other fans defending Abbie and others. I am on twitter and I didn't see anything but praise for the writing and kudos to the writers. What little defense of Katrina came from Abbie fans also on twitter. If you are going to defend someone in private corners than you can't say much when others take their fights to the streets. Abbie fans took it to where it could be seen.
ReplyDeleteKatrina fans should have been just as vocal as all others if they didn't like what was happening. Do what you do but don't complain about it later because no one heard you.
I thought Katrina had help with Rev. Knapp with that spell so no she isn't the entire reason why the witness are even fighting together. Her whole life being devoted to it means what exactly so has Abbie and Jenny and their ancestors and everybody else who patricipates in this war. I agree the writing for Sleepy Hollow as a whole has been bad.
ReplyDeleteS1 and S2 different writers different ideas. I thought the whole turn to ashes was a playoff of the burn witches on the stakes thing. Really how did these episode undo any established mythology, I really would like to know.
Katrina actually has nothing to do with why Abbie is fighting evil. Abbie family has been doing this just as long as Katrina has and Abbie and Jenny has been training since they were children for this fight, but I guess you forgot all about that.
ReplyDeleteI guess you also forgot that most of this season they have been trying to save Katrina. Abbie went to Purgatory trying to save Katrina, these people have risked their lives saving Katrina. There comes a time when you have to save yourself and I don't know someone trying to kill me isn't going to get pats and hugs. They didn't give up on Katrina she gave up on them and joined Henry, then tried to kill them. Katrina died from the struggle with the knife that was in her hand.
How has this reflectesd badly on any of the other characters. please tell i really want to know.
So as a writer of a book series if one of your main characters wasn't well receive and cause you to lose book sales you wouldn't try to fix some aspects of that character? You are going to tell me that if something that you wrote was working you wouldn't care enough to correct it.
ReplyDeleteYou love season 1 but are upset because the writers are trying to get back to the formula that worked in S1. So writers of a tv show shouldn't try to change what isn't working and leading them to cancelllation because then it is just them pandering to fans who could keep the show on the air..
You rather the show be cancelled then be renewed at go back to what made it the hit that it was in the first season.
How was she the kindest, because her guilt want her to redeem her son and Abraham. She sure wasn't kind to Mary's family. Please your bias is showing.
ReplyDeleteExactly, the writing was horrible but this constant trying to make her something that she wasn't from her fans is frustration. katrina was always playing her own side in things. The writers from the pilot made her more mysterious and shady then anything else.
ReplyDeleteNothing in the last three episodes where pulled form thin air, the execution was poorly done and Katrina was horribly written but it was something that was coming. I'm starting to believe that they were going to do a slow reveal of her turning throughout the series run but was force to speed it up because of the failure that this is. Better writing would have done this justice.
Katrina is not the kindest person on the show you just choose to see it that way. What she did to Abraham was not kind at all, she was falling in love with another man and spending time with that man while engage to another. She accept his gifts and company if she was kind she would have called off the engagement much earlier. She wasn't kind to Mary's family having them wonder what happened to their daughter in the New World. She wasn't kind when she summoned Abbie and had her almost die by the truck and placed her in danger bringing her to that haunted house being chased by Headless. She had kindess and she had compassion but so did most of every other character on the show. Shit I can state Abbie was the kindest for financially supporting the Cranes and providing them a nice place to live. Jenny is the kindest for protecting and supporting her sister even when they were at odds and going to jail and pysch wards instead of killing her when she was possessed.
ReplyDeleteKatrina did show kindess and compassion but at one point so did Henry. Henry aided the witness, save Ichabod's life and still committed horrendous acts. People have two sides the one they show us and then the one they truly are.
I am on twitter and this never happened. There was never all this hate on twitter for the actress, now about the character yes. I can't say she was never sent a mean tweet but that is par the course for the life of a celebrity. I also won't say fans aren't hating on her but it is not being done on twitter.
ReplyDeleteYes I just found that tweet and shame and no one called her out on it.
ReplyDeleteFans have for years been getting actors fired and in the same breath extending their contracts. Why are we acting as if this is something new that just happening with Katia.
ReplyDeleteI think the whole thing with Ichabod was stupid, down the line maybe but this intense hatred right now no. The same with Henry and how he blame his father of abandoning him when he didn't even know of his existence and he was dead.
The writers failed.
You have to look again but the writers were putting in hints about her possible turn to evil in the first season. It was slowly being develop, poorly but it was being done. You don't want to see it so I won't go point to point but it was there.
ReplyDeleteThat is being done in poor taste. I believe the dark Katrina arc would have came in S3 with Henry having more of an influence on her.
ReplyDeleteI love all the revolutionary parts especially Abbie and Ichabod. These two are the show for me. The ending was anticlimactic, I would prefer for Katrina to have escaped somehow and they continued this arc into S3.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think that Grace was non-magical didn't she own her own grimore or book of spells. Wasn't it her book that talked about he traveller spell to begin with how do you know it wasn't something that one of her ancestors develop or if not that they had enough time to perfect a counter spell. Also maybe her grimore is just as powerful.
ReplyDeleteKatrina turning evil only seems to come out of nowwhere to her fans, I wonder why that is. There have been signs since S1 of the possibility of this happening.
Cried so bad for my Katrina... hope it gets renewed so Ichabbie fans can be happy. I love both pairs but right now I'm too sad for Katrina
ReplyDeleteI think Katrina was evil yes but she was for her son & Abraham and when she died & saw Jeremy her soul was saved & freed from the evil.
ReplyDeleteI'll always love her and I like the way Ichabod lined his body on her dead body & cried. Loved Ichabbie hug and the final scene. I liked how Ichabod thought "he could have had another choice" so a part of him feels sad & guilty
I'm not condemning anyone, just having a lively discussion. The dip in quality can be subjective, I suppose, but to me, I have stated where I think the dip was. Take it or leave it.
ReplyDeleteWow, seriously? The bias again? We have articles on other websites saying "Ding, Dong the Witch is Dead." So if an article hates on Katrina, it's okay, but when somebody actually likes a character you hate, it's not. YOUR bias is showing and it's not pretty.
ReplyDeleteIn the first season, she was. Her sympathy towards Henry and Abraham was due to her being a big softie. And Henry was her son, you're right, so of course she'd want to save him. You're acting like she did a poor thing with Henry when, from a mother's perspective, you have to agree that a mother's intuition to protect her young kicked in. Was it to do with guilt? Sure. But guilt comes from a place where you know you're in the wrong and by making up for it, it's a 'kind' thing to do.
The things you mention were all introduced in the second season when the writing turned sour anyway. What I have been saying is the writers chose to ruin her character in the second season. In the first season, she was nothing but helpful to Ichabod by coming to him in dreams and such. In fact, the 200 years before the series started she spent it in Purgatory for SAVING her husband, the man she loved. You mention the things she did wrong, but she did things that were right too, so if you're going to argue that she was a terrible person, don't try to hide the good things she did.
ReplyDeleteThere is a lot of good left, especially when it comes to Abbie's and Ichabod's relationship. Ahh, thanks for clarifying that for the dollar bills, I had no idea. That's actually made the scene a little funnier to me now haha. Yeah, it was very moving that a love that spanned centuries ended with one killing the other. I do hope we get a third season so we can see how this show goes about fixing itself.
ReplyDeleteAnd this assessment is rife with speculation and outright untruths. It takes two to tango. You can't speak for the meagre ONE million that turned away from season two when THREE million turned away from season one, and then another TWO million before season 2 started. Can't say that was due to Katrina at all, but I guess I can't say it wasn't, so really this is all speculation though some things are obvious.
ReplyDeleteWhen was the interview, last month? Which means she would have already been killed off the show since they film the episode weeks in advance? She probably knew that her character was dead anyway and filmed it and thought "you know what, it's unfair that this has happened to me. The writers messed up yet I'm paying for it." Nothing she said in that interview was wrong. She agrees with the haters and even then they still complain about her. She was miserable with her character because of the poor job the writers did for her in season two.
ReplyDeleteI am on Twitter too and I have seen it. You haven't seen every single tweet that Katia Winter has seen. So how can you contradict yourself by saying "I am on twitter and this never happened" to "I can't say she was never sent a mean tweet." When you see the millions of tweets with the Sleepy Hollow hashtag or those that were directed to Katia, then your argument will have substance. But right now, it does not.
ReplyDeleteWhere did the race argument come from there? It keeps getting brought up when NO ONE was talking about it. I hate that people have been racist and it makes me ashamed of those Katrina fans, or other fans that may not like Katrina anyway, but seriously I haven't seen them myself so I cannot comment on that. But that wasn't the argument anyway. You can check the tags NOW but you can't check the millions of tags OR the tweets directed to Katia that have ever been sent on Twitter. There's just too many tweets to comprehend.
ReplyDeleteI've honestly haven't seen the racist tweets but if I did, I would never stand for it. Not all Katrina fans endorse that racism. It does make me sick to think about that kind of hate, but I never brought up race anywhere so I don't know why it's being brought up. I understand that Katrina fans have done things against Abbie that they should not be proud of, and vice versa with Abbie fans, I just hate that the whole thing, the fandom, has lowered itself to that standard. It makes me glad I never interacted with the fandom before I began reviewing the show for SpoilerTV. I enjoyed watching the show so much more before I knew about the hatred in every corner of the fandom.
ReplyDeleteI definitely agree about Henry and Ichabod not knowing he existed. That peed me off.
ReplyDeleteFans getting actors fired might have been around a long time but it doesn't make it any more okay. It's just wrong. There are shows I wish characters would die on, but I never put the writers in a position where they feel they have no choice but to kill them off. That's unfair to them.
I would have preferred that instead of it feeling like a rush job tacked on at the end of the season. I genuinely thought Katrina deserved more, even if a lot of people hated her. She was there since the beginning after all, and it just felt like the writers stopped caring about her so they just needed her gone.
ReplyDeleteTotally agree about the revolutionary parts with Abbie and Ichabod. They are the show for me, I love their chemistry as it's awesome, but I like it when the other characters are also great. I would have liked Katrina to escape too but I guess the writers really needed a reset.
ReplyDeleteWhat difference a year makes. The S1 finale was terrific, it had genuine twists and shocks (and I usually spot a twist from miles away) and great cliffhangers. The S2 finale not so much.
ReplyDeletePros
+ It was at least better than the majority of S2
+ Abbie had some great moments
+ Abbie and Ichabod friendship
+ Hey people give a shit about Irving again
+ Grace Dixon!
+ Franklin being super happy about the future.
Cons
+ Katrina. So much I can say. I'm not against evil Katrina, in fact I think it had potential to be a great twist for the character but it happened way too quickly, this should have been built up over the season, instead it fell flat. And then as soon as Katrina turns evil she is dead by the end of the episode. What is the point?
+ Undoing the spell. Ugh, what was the point of it then? I really hate resets.
+ So you just killed your siginficiant other in a terrible fight, hey no worries just get up and act pretty normal! Of course. Such a natural reaction.
Overall.
I understand the writers urge to wipe clean the events of S2, it was pretty bad at times and getting rid of the problem characters is probably for the best but it could have been handled so much better.
As for the future if the show gets a S3, well hopefully the fact that Abbie, Ichabod, Jenny and Irving all walked off together means they will work as a team for now on, keeping Irving's story separate was a mistake, keeping JennY sidelined was a mistake, killing of Moloch mid season and having no clear storyline afterwards was a mistake.
I really don't know if S3 can redeem the show or not but one thing for certain the Sleepy Hollow fandom is really disappointing.
Yeah I agree with that a lot of it was of good quality, especially in the past. I don't know much about the presidents as I'm British but it's awesome to know Franklin was anti-slavery and the writers incorporated that. Love it when they're historically accurate.
ReplyDeleteI guess I can agree with you about Katrina/Katia there. She really did go all out in this episode and it was pretty glorious. At least she didn't die with a whimper but went out with more of a bang, but it still should have never come to this. No point crying about it now though right? What's done is done. I'll still enjoy the show for Ichabod and Abbie but I was hoping the writers knew how to treat their other characters better.
Show runners say they have a plan all along, that's their fail safe so when people question them, they can say that. But it was obvious this turn was a rush job and in no way part of the plan. Maybe Katrina turning evil was supposed to happen in S3 and have more time for her descent, but it was obvious they made it happen earlier to appease the fans and risked quality of storytelling because of it. But it is hard to believe that at the beginning, Katrina who saved Ichabod, fought for the Witnesses in the past, spent centuries loving Ichabod and fighting for her life in Purgatory to reunite with him - that turning her evil at the drop of a hat and have her LOATHE her husband so much she wants to kill him was part of the original plan. That's too hard to swallow for anybody who thinks about it rationally.
The writers did make her into the Scrappy-Doo, and making her die was the easy option they could have taken.
Yeah I hope nobody takes the f-bomb the wrong way as I was talking about the future within the show being f-ed since Abbie already changed the course of history by removing Ichabod from the battlefield, not the future of the show.
ReplyDeleteIt was the rush job of it in the span of 4 episodes, how quick they were to turn her and the implausible feelings she had towards Ichabod came out of nowhere. I'm going to watch the show from the beginning again to see. And it's not just Katrina fans that have said that, so stop trying to discredit it by acting like anything Katrina fans say is a lie.
ReplyDeleteI can agree that the better writing could have done this justice.
ReplyDeleteYou're right about Jenny and Frank. They were just as much main characters as Katrina and they didn't get half the story or screen time as Katrina, so saying that Katrina didn't get enough attention makes no sense. It was the quality of her portrayal that was a the issue. Henry Parrish was revealed to be "evil" in the last episode of season 1 and people thought it was a brilliant plot twist. And now he's been killed off too. The point being that unless you're one of the two leads, there really is no guarantee that your character is going to survive or have a wonderful story.
ReplyDeleteI don't get why people disliked Katrina. I can understand why they didn't connect with her. but other than that, I found her harmless (personality-wise). Nevertheless, I think that viewers are entitled to hate whoever they want and they are entitled to express dislike of a character, without being labeled "haters".. And I'm certain that most Katrina fans have freely expressed dislike of other characters on other shows.
Thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts, yay it finally posted :D I love all the points you mentioned, I feel the exact same way about them, and what you didn't like. It's like we have the same brain. Definitely an anticlimactic ending and quick fix. I'm sure Katia will be fine after this :)
ReplyDeleteI'm definitely sure the writers and show runner will learn from season 2, their jobs will basically be on the line. I can't wait to re-watch the first season, so if I can pick out those moments where there was an allusion to Katrina possibly turning evil. A lot of what made season 1 work didn't transfer well to season 2 for the most part, but I agree with the action and urgency and witness bond that lacked from season 2.
Haha I did. It was 4am where I live when I went to bed and I really needed to sleep haha.
ReplyDeleteThat is weird. Maybe a lot of comments are being moderated more closely now due to the Spellcaster preview fiasco?
ReplyDeleteThey lost half their audience BEFORE season 2 started.
ReplyDeleteSeason 1 premiere - 10.1 million
Season 2 premiere - 5.5 million
If a main character was being poorly received, I would look at WHY they weren't being liked. And I would FIX it, not go "oh I know I'll turn them evil and kill them off." Arrow had the same problem with Laurel Lance but they're FIXING her character, not going the easy route and killing her off. I respect those writers for doing so.
ReplyDeleteAnd I am not upset the writers will be going back to the S1 format, I expressed my dislike about how they came about it. I am looking forward to seeing how Season 3 will go but at the minute it's hard to put my complete faith in these writers, so I'm going to have some hesitation until I see Season 3.
loved it.. loved it .... and loved it more if that's even possible... lol...
ReplyDeleteI would never want the show to pander to me. But they did pander to the haters which is what I hate because they changed their original plan. It's obvious it was a rush job. If Katrina needed to turn evil and die, fine, but it was so poorly written and rushed that it's very easy to see this was fan pandering.
ReplyDeleteIf this was the other way around, you would be saying the same as what I am. So how come you can state your frustrations but I can't state mine?
Haha that could be possible, I'm very glad you loved it :D
ReplyDeleteits always been about Henry.. for her.. its something she's gone on and on and on about
ReplyDeleteI do agree, and I apologise if the term of haters was offensive, but in a sense, they are haters of a character which is fine, I'm not criticising anyone for hating her. But people are allowed to express their love for characters too. If I was a Katrina hater, then I wouldn't mind being called just that because that's what I would be. Fortunately I don't hate anyone on the show. Agree with your points about Henry though.
ReplyDeleteBefore Henry, Ichabod was all Katrina went on and on and on about. It was like a bait and switch between the two for Katrina.
ReplyDeleteI am very happy with this ep, if it is the last one at least they did not leave on a cliff hanger.
ReplyDeleteThat season one finale was terrific, I agree so much there. Great Pros too, those were points I definitely loved about the episode.
ReplyDeleteThe redundancy they made this season by reversing the spell so quickly and easily, and killing Katrina is one of the things I am not happy with about this finale. Ichabod was upset at the end of the episode and I think some time did pass since she died as it looked like it was lighter outside, but I expected more of a reaction from Ichabod for killing his wife. I expected him to be more distraught or cry out or anything. I would have taken anything. But reading interviews and things, they're wiping Katrina from everything she ever touched like she never existed, which I think is a disgrace.
I do hope we have more teamwork in Season 3. There were a lot of mistakes with Season 2 that they can't possibly make the same ones (or worse ones) in another season. They're going to be so careful now. Agree with the SH fandom. I only started writing the reviews for this show at the end of last month and it was a revelation when I saw what the fandom was like.
I'm glad you liked the episode! It is a great job they didn't end on a cliffhanger, I bet they were tempted but had to be safe in case the show was cancelled.
ReplyDeleteIf the writers messed things up so badly in season 2 (SEASON 2, not season 5, 6, 11!!!) am i going to invest in this show? lol no I'm giving up too. Fan pandering at its best is what happened, apart from bad decisions from the beginning, which include pitting women against each other for no apparent reason. So freaking done with this show.
ReplyDeleteI hope some of that guilt and sadness transfers into season 3. I really hope they don't act like Katrina never existed, that would just be awful. I did love that there was some affection still there in her dying moments. Thanks for leaving your thoughts :) R.I.P. Katrina!
ReplyDeleteIt is so sad, I cried a little too :( I've always been a fan of both pairs too, I don't know why people felt the need to pit both pairs against each other and spread hate. Fingers crossed for that renewal :)
ReplyDeleteI hate that they pitted women against each other, and even more so that most of the fandom did the same thing. It isn't nice at all. You make a very strong point there about investing in the show, especially since the writers messed up on only the second season. My faith in the writers is very questionable. I don't blame you for giving up the show, you might actually be happier without it.
ReplyDeleteI do like Scorpion...
ReplyDeleteJoffrey was written TO be hated. He was very well written and portrayed but he was a bad guy from the beginning who did AWFUL things. In the beginning, Katrina didn't, but had that flip in the end of season 2. Yes, the fail was the writing of that character.
ReplyDeleteComparing Katrina to Joffrey is laughable. Try and come up with a better example.
I am not mad people didn't love and support Katrina. I can understand why some people don't like her but it doesn't mean I should hate her too, which is what you seem to prefer. I always get criticised for liking Katrina but I never criticise those who hate her. I criticise those who bullied the writers into changing their story because they hate a character. I'm not saying you were one of them, but it happened. You admit it happened. Evil Katrina should have happened earlier to be more believable. The majority have said the turn was unrealistic, even if the seeds were planted earlier but that comes back to my argument all along - the writers messed it up. It should have been handled better. As I've said, I wouldn't have minded the storyline or Katrina's death as much if it was just handled better, but it was not. If they want to listen to the majority, that's fine, but change your show in a way that seems natural and flows. It was very jarring in 2B because of this.
ReplyDeleteShe wasn't always horribly written, and Katrina fans have their reasons for liking her. I'm not going to share mine because every time I do, I get criticised. It's funny because people are allowed to hate her in the SH fandom, but God forbid if you actually LIKE her. It's unacceptable according to the majority of the fandom.
ReplyDeleteMe, personally, only found her to be poorly written mid-season 2 to the end, when it was clear the writers started listening to the fandom. Before that, at the start of season 2, she did things that annoyed me but at the same time I could relate to her decisions. Didn't make me love it, but I was annoyed. But I still liked her. Everybody has the right to like a character, as everybody has the write to hate a character as long as they don't attack those that do like them. It's not fair.
He definitely needed more reaction, its not like Tom Mison can't do that well, so it just seemed weird how they played it.
ReplyDeleteI was never really pro or anti Katrina, but the way they seem to be treating the character does leave a bad taste. She was an important part of Ichabod's life and that should be acknowledged.
I've mostly stayed away from the fandom because pretty early on a lot of the fans seemed focussed on shipwars and I've noticed that if a show has a creative slump the fandom can get very vicious very quickly.
I'm sad because it had a lot of potential, we had same amount of women as of men, poc characters, supernatural stuff! witches! john noble!! in the end it all went wrong so fast. I'm also mad about Jenny's storyline this season, she was just there and Irving's was also very bad handled imo :(
ReplyDeleteBut seriously, why did they choose to antagonize Abbie and Katrina instead of creating a bond between the two of them, helping each other, trying to work over witchcraft? I can see the two of them being friends, friendly teasing Ichabod, working also with Jenny. They isolated Katrina for the sake of Ichabod/Abbie?? i just don't understand. The 3/4/5 of them would've made such a good team against evil.
I NEVER used the term hater in my review. I might have in some of my comments and I have apologised if that was offensive, but you did hate aspects of the show right, so hater really is the only word to describe it. Do you prefer disliker? I don't know, but you readily admit that the writers changing things DID happen, so it's not like I was wrong. You're not being labeled for not falling in love with a character, but it's funny how hypocritical the fandom is when it comes to this because I like her, and get abuse all the time for it. So it's okay to hate her but not like her? See the hypocrisy in that? I sure do. Sure, I can be a hater too, of the writing. But I won't argue if people called me a hater because that's what I would be.
ReplyDeleteI never said it was bad writing from the beginning. I never thought Katrina was badly written in the beginning. I loved her in season one. I enjoyed her at the beginning of the season but things went downhill fast when the writers started to write her character poorly. No one is arguing that things weren't going to change, I've only ever argued about how POORLY that change came about. It could have been written way better.
I agree way too much with your post. That's what the writers could and should have done, but yeah, you're right, they chose not to and it's sad. They would have made the best team against evil.
ReplyDeleteIt's great that you realise, despite not really having an opinion on Katrina, that it's realistic for Ichabod to be sad over his wife whereas a lot of people (including the writers) want her erased from existence. It's not realistic at all to just move on after 200+ years of loving each other.
ReplyDeleteI wish I had of known that before I started reviewing the show. I've met some amazing fans of the show which has been great, who have loved every aspect of the show and enjoy it for what it is, but yeah, I've seen the viciousness of the fandom too and it's scared me at times.
Ah, I see my original comment has been released from Purgatory. Weird. Anyway, that is going to be one truly fury - driven Headless Horseman when he finds out Ichabod has killed Katrina. Thanks again for the reviews you did for us.
ReplyDeleteAnd it is okay to like her too. It truly is.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with this, though I thought some of her storyline was pretty reasonable and logical in the beginning, but as I personally think, the writing fell apart around the mid-season point. It always comes back to the writers not knowing what to do with her which is all I've been saying all along. They really need to work on how to balance these main characters and get into a flow.
ReplyDeleteAs I've said before, I didn't start interacting with the fandom until the start of this month when I posted my Spellcaster preview not realising how much hate Katrina had. Had I known, I would have been more vocal on Twitter, but I never knew about it until it was too late. I do wish Katrina fans were more vocal but at the end of the day, someone's going to be louder.
ReplyDeleteVery good thinking ;)
ReplyDeleteThanks for appreciating my reviews, that means a lot :D It is going to be exciting to see how this plays out, but that's if the writers keep Abraham. It would be considered Crane Family Drama which a lot of people don't want to see, so it wouldn't surprise me if he was never seen again.
ReplyDeleteIf an article hates on Katrina on a website that I visit I will state the way I feel just like I am doing on this website with your article. My bias is showing, really and its not pretty because I don't think she was the kindest person on the show.
ReplyDeleteIn the first season we barely got to meet her so how could she be the kindest person. Jenny was kind protecting her sister after the betrayal and even going to jail and the psych ward so as to not kill her. Abbie was kind trying to save the world and in the way that she looked out for Ichabod. Irving was kind in believing in what the witnesses was saying and giving them free reign to fight evil and joining them when he could lend a hand. But Katrina is the kindest for protecting her son due to her guilt regardless of what he son is and what he has done. Regardless if by protecting her son she is endangering not only the witness by innocent people. Katrina wanting to save Henry is not the bad thing, she is his mother I can understand that. Katrina actively working against the witnessed to protect her son is a bad thing because regardless of who child Henry is he was doing harm to other people children. As a mother if my child is out there causing harm to others no matter how much love I have for him I would want him to be stop. Would I think him redeemable of course he is my baby boy but my feelings do not trump over his victims. The same for Henry no matter how Katrina felt Henry murdered people and was plotting the end of the world, no her feelings don't matter over everyone and everything else. But it's my bias that is not pretty, take a better look in the mirror.
Let's not forget how kind Katrina was towards Mary's family with that fake letter, and how stringing along Abraham was a kind act. Maybe her kindest overtook her when she summoned Abbie to that haunted house and almost got her killed and then chased by Headless.
I am not stating that Katrina did not have some kindness and compassion but to state that she was the kindest is all rose colored glasses. Katrina was written just like every other character on the show to be flawed. She did some sketchy things, at times acted on her own behalf, and was known to lie and withhold pertinent information. So no she wasn't the kindest on the show and that is your bias talking so own it.
..."I was never really pro or anti Katrina, but the way they seem to be treating the character does leave a bad taste. She was an important part of Ichabod's life and that should be acknowledged"...
ReplyDeleteI agree with this, and thank you for voicing it, she was more that just an important part of Ichabod's life, she was also the reason the Witnesses are together to fight. I still can't believe a character that has been fighting this War long before Ichabod came onto the scene....was made so redundant by the creators. If they couldn't see potential in this character, how are they going to see it in future characters. We can't just have the 4 running around the forest like pixies.....if they don't have equal and powerful antagonists, what's the point for them.
Is it looking more and more that SH is not being renewed....or is that just me?😕
Wasn't it more of an accidental death, Ichabod did not grab the knife run over to Katrina and stab her. It was a struggle with him trying to stop her from killing Abbie and the knife she was holding got plunge into her stomach/side? He wasn't acting normal, he wasn't doing a jig and wanting to go out for drinks. He seem to be in shock, which is a normal reaction.
ReplyDeleteEven saying that I think it was poorly done. The writing this season has left me often shaking my head.
Again, you're mentioning things that happened in the second season which was where the problems first arose with her character. At least in my eyes, but at least I can admit there was a problem. It all comes down to opinion, and mine is that Katrina was kind in her day but season 2 ruined her character. I guess I shouldn't have said "kindest" but she was kind at one point. That's how she began. Abbie also lied to Ichabod and withheld pertinent information including stuff about the Angel, but you don't see me holding it against her.
ReplyDeletePEOPLE write reviews, which is what this article is. PEOPLE have opinions. I have opinions. OPINIONS are not BIAS, they're just OPINIONS. Otherwise every single person in these comments are BIAS, including yourself. It is okay for me to like someone you don't, and it's okay for you to not like someone I don't. I've never disputed that. It's what the comments are for, to challenge my opinions. But stop with the bias thing, it's sounding like a broken record right now. I like Katrina, I didn't like the direction she headed in because of the writers. Don't agree with that? Great, write it in the comments, but don't call me bias when I disagree with you.
That's exactly what they made her, redundant.
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't know what FOX are going to do with this show. Depending on how pilot season looks for them and how The Following does, SH doesn't have the best chance at renewal right now.
Who didn't acknowledge that she was important to Ichabod. Most of the season was spent saving her because Abbie knew of her importance to Ichabod even in the finale she talked about their love for each other. Or are you speaking of fandom.
ReplyDeleteI think you're right, it was supposed to be accidental, but the scene happened so fast it was hard for that to come across. I honestly understand if he was in shock, it's perfectly normal in grief, but it could have been done better and maybe something to end their 200+ year love rather than have Katrina only care about Jeremy and disregard Ichabod.
ReplyDeleteI think the shock explanation is the only one that makes any sense they just don't show it very well I guess
ReplyDeleteThe show, after Ichabod kills her they should have spent more time with him in shock or the other characters comforting him, mostly got Jenny saying sorry and that is it. Maybe they will deal with it more in S3.
ReplyDeleteIt takes a lot of skill and knowledge to build a computer or a car or whatever..... it takes almost none to break anything. Guess it's the same with magic... creating the spell takes a lot of power and knowledge but disrupting the spell during the "grace" period is a piece of cake if you know the right words.
ReplyDeleteI don't hate Katrina at all, she is my least entertaining character. Her storyline was problematic and that is what I complain about. I criticize bad writing, bad characterization and shady action on those in charge for the decrease in diversity. I don't criticize or try to change the minds of those who don't think as I do. I may debate and disagree but your opinion is yours to keep and I am respectful of those opinions.
ReplyDeleteI happen to enjoy Evil Katrina and think they should have played that hand much earlier. I too believe the turn was unrealistic not unbelievable which is what I have been stating. I also agree that the writing has been heavy handed and poor.
I agree that is was done poorly, once again this is a problem with the writing. Season 2 has been about nothing but Katrina caring about Jeremy and disregarding Ichabod.
ReplyDeleteThis 200+ love was really on a couple of years for Ichabod since he was in some that of enhanced sleep for most of that but I do understand what you are saying.
I like the sound of the pilot show called 'Lucifer' that they ordered. But it's synopsis sounded a lot like SH. I don't know how it works overseas. But it sounds like they are starting 'afresh' in more than just SH.
ReplyDeleteBut the Headless Horseman is the very center of the original story of The Legend of Sleepy Hollow - without him you lose the old tradition from the Washington Irving story and there is no core myth. I understand we are making a completely new story about the witnesses here and are not tied to the original or bound to the horseman but if you say the words headless horseman then Sleepy Hollow immediately comes to mind. You are absolutely right that more Crane Family Drama is now a tainted subject. But the horseman's vengeance is a huge plot thread to toss out with the Crane family bathwater.
ReplyDeleteI am sorry if you are getting abused for liking a character. People are not using the term hater as you are implying. I am glad that the writers took note of the many complaints and wanted to fix what wasn't working. It would have been stupid to not do so.
ReplyDeleteI know you didn't say it was bad writing from the beginning that is my point. It only became bad writing when the character that you like wasn't written in the way you would have preferred, see the hypocrisy in that . I saw the bad, weak writing from the beginning and voiced it.
Just realized that if we get another season they will have to re-do the marvelous opening sequence which starts out with you know who in the background throwing up her arms.
ReplyDeleteIt's not about who is louder but about who is larger. The writers wasn't paying attention to twitter noise until critics started parroting that noise. Until Abbie defenders joined together and made their voices heard. Twitter is both a blessing and a curse.
ReplyDeleteGavin, your morality is lopsided.
ReplyDeleteHow can you be so adamant and upset about what you claim to be hatred Katia is receiving, when there is no proof.
I checked the tags THOROUGHLY because I would have responded and called it out. There is nothing there.
Meanwhile, there IS actual racism, LOTS OF IT easy to find proof of coming from Katrina fans... In fact, I have a difficult time find even on fan who hasn't let loose with racism!
Yet...
Your response to that is be annoyed by the fact that it was brought up? You are angry at people for being upset NOT EVEN BEING ABLE TO ENJOY being a fan without bigots reminding them that there skin color invalidates their humanity???
But you first response isn't to be appalled and upset that fans are doing this but to wash your hands of it, to turn away, to be bothered by the gall of fans to bring this up.
Again, THIS is why Katrina fans have such terrible reputations in this fandom.
Maybe that is what they did, I for one believe that turning evil wasn't pulled out of thin air. They seem to have rushed what they were planning to do and it came off horribly. Making Katrina is fixing her in some why and she was getting a better response due to it. It may not be what everyone wanted but it seems to be working for the character better than what they were doing.
ReplyDeleteSo you admit that what you said was untrue, since "it takes two to tango"?
ReplyDeleteOne million people...
Ome millions people turning the channel is not meager.
If Goffman is to be believed about this always having been the plan, than they really didn't pick up the bread crumbs that were thrown out.
ReplyDeleteHahaha, as weirdly spaced and hard to see as those crumbs were, they were there.
Haters?
ReplyDeleteAgain, you're standing in the same rain.
I can just scroll up this thread and find comments from you agreeing that Katrina was terribly written so you had better include yourself in those haters.
YOU SAY IT IN THIS COMMENT.
*sigh*
What frustrating about you and you're fellow fans is this baffling need to cape for a character THAT YOU KNOW was terribly written.
You understand why people didn't take to her. You've listed the reasons yourself! So why are you calling people haters for agreeing with you?
For disliking a character for logical reasons?
All I mentioned about Jenny/Abbie and Irving happened in the first season. Katrina and to Abbie and Abraham happened in the first season. Yes maybe you shouldn't have said kindest but you did and I gave a counter argument about her not being the kindest. I also stated that she was kind, but then again that was how Henry began on the show also. Yes which is why I never stated Abbie was the kindest on the show. I am not holding what Katrina does against it but I am not excusing it either same with everyone on this show.
ReplyDeleteof course opinions can be biased. If I offended you with the word bias I am truly sorry, sorta like the hater thing. If it is sounding like a broken record I feel the same with all the pandering to talk. You didn't disagree with me you was making a statement about a character that you favor and placed that slant on it.
I do apologized for I never intended to offended you.