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Supernatural - Episode 10.10 - The Hunter Games - Sneak Peek

14 Jan 2015

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74 comments:

  1. Monia14 January 2015 at 20:53

    It breaks my heart.
    Dean, you'll be fine!

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  2. Katherine14 January 2015 at 21:29

    Oh my dean.

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  3. gabygogo14 January 2015 at 21:36

    *looks to the floor* Oh, look! There are the pieces of my shattered heart!
    I really don't care what other's say, this has been the best season of Supernatural in my opinion. There hasn't been an episode that I've hated and I'm always looking forward to the next episode. So glad it got renewed for Season 11.
    #12SeasonsAndAMovie

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  4. Ross14 January 2015 at 21:44

    Best season? I really don't know how to respond to that. Why do you think it's better than the lucifer years for example? There's no plot this year

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  5. ToniL14 January 2015 at 21:52

    Listening to Cas talk about Claire, I felt wrinkles grow on my face and my hair start to turn grey.
    What happened to "I'm the one who gripped you tight and raised you from perdition" Cas?
    I love an emotional Dean and can't wait to see them finish this. Even if I have to look at Metatron when they do it. They can kill him afterwards so I need never look at him again.

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  6. gabygogo14 January 2015 at 22:03

    Season 5 was amazing as well, don't get me wrong. Point of No Return is in my Top 5 episodes story arc wise. I just think Lucifer was tied up so quickly...I mean yes, he was around for a season and if he was around longer it probably would've played out, but they kept building and building and building and Lucifer is supposed to be the ultimate evil...I don't know...Season 10 for me is just like the epitome, for the first time in a long time, the brothers aren't fighting, I love the bunker being like a home for them since Bobby's is gone, but I think what I like most about this season is that even though the arc's are focused on Dean, we get to see Sam almost like the "parental" figure of the two. Usually, it's Dean taking care of Sam and in Season 3 we saw a lot of that Sam since he was trying to save Dean from going to Hell. I just really want Sam to save Dean. Yes, he sacrificed himself in Swan Song (another fav) but it "seems" like Dean has saved Sam so many times and it's nice to see it the other way around. I like the arc with Cas and Claire as well, it's nice to see another strong female character who is a teenager and isn't really as annoying as Krissy (imo) and it's fun to see this side of Cas, though I'm concerned on what is in the cards for his future.

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  7. ParadiseHeat14 January 2015 at 22:06

    wow shock horror I think thats the first time in years that Sam has had more than 1 line in a scene with the 2 leads. I thought all the emotional/angsty scenes would be between Dean and Cas.


    Dean I'm sorry but you cant start getting all woah is me now, its your fault your in this mess and tbh it isnt exactly like you've dont anything bad while having the MOC. Even swinging an axe at your brothers head and putting him in his place was met with cheers from your fans.


    Cas... just keep doing what you're doing the fandom loves it.


    Sam? why arent you sitting there quietly observing, knocked out somewhere or why the hell didnt you get up and walk out of the room when Dean walked in do Cas and Dean could have their special moment on screen. Hopefully thats the last we'll see of that kind of behavior from the rest of the episode from you young man.

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  8. ParadiseHeat14 January 2015 at 22:09

    So we know from spoilers that Sam isnt really integral in saving Dean this season so I'm curious as to what Sam's role will be for the remainder of the season and next since the current Dean/MOC, Cas/daughter and Crowley/Rowena are likely to carry on to season 11?

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  9. fazziemodo14 January 2015 at 22:12

    Poor Dean as much as I get his pain and even Claire's, I kind am of not 100% on the feeling why Cas and Sam are making 'poor Randy, lets eulogise the scumbag.' high on the list of priorities.


    I got Randy didn't deserved death when it happened, that Dean probably took the self defence too far so I don't need the anvil to tell me that white slaving fagin doesn't mean automatic death sentence.


    But also this is a Cas who killed a nephilim just because he was told her death would help close the gates of heaven and Sam who when soulless massacred innocent victims because it would be better for them and went after Benny because he didn't like him. When they crossed the line we get five minutes of screen guilt over it and never mention it again in any terms outside what it meant to them. But now when Dean has done something similar to what they have done they decide the choices of the victim involved are important? Hammering home the anvil that Dean has crossed a line just pushes both Sam and Cas in this clip into hypocrite mode.

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  10. gabygogo14 January 2015 at 22:12

    Just because I'm curious, I don't remember hearing about the spoilers concerning Sam. When was that said?

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  11. gabygogo14 January 2015 at 22:21

    I agree that Sam and Cas also have their share of baggage but I think the reason they are harping on it is the fact that Dean could easily go "dark side/demon" again, because of the Mark. It's something they don't understand and people always fear the "unknown". Dean's character is also referred to often as "The Righteous Man" so to see him go so far as massacring is simply scaring all of them, Dean included. With Cas, nephilim weren't really good anyway were they? They were considered abominations. Sam didn't have his soul so of course nobody blames him, except Sam. I don't think they were defending Randy or anything, it was just that he was "human" (if one can call him that) and it probably has something to do with Claire, like how she cared for him and now Dean has killed the only other person she's cared about.


    What caught me most in this scene (and maybe I'm just seeing things) is that Sam seems almost genuinely frightened of Dean. Granted it could just be that he was startled and felt bad that he and Cas were talking about Dean, but he also has this look like he's going to make sure he keeps that table between them and that hurt me. I hurt for both of them, Dean because he doesn't know how to stop the Mark from turning him into a monster and Sam because he just got his brother back and doesn't want to lose him again.

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  12. AnnoDomini14 January 2015 at 22:28

    May I just say...I would have never expected we'd get to the tenth episode of the tenth season on Supernatural.

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  13. fazziemodo14 January 2015 at 22:39

    The nephilim even though considered by angels as an abomination only fought Cas in self defence and this is Cas who decided that humans weren't mud monkeys. And Sam, yes he has done many things both soulled and soulless. But my point was that how many died at their hands and the victim were not considered important compared to their act. But now to them Randy kind of is?


    Dean kills Randy and Randy himself gets discussed, not just in the terms of what he meant to Claire or how the action itself pushed Dean down a darker path but how he, Randy, didn't deserve to die. Where was that concern about the nephilim herself, she might of been an abomination but personality wise we never Cas saying she really deserve to die or maybe how he should have tried harder to find another way before killing her, Sam never discussed the actions of the people he killed when soulless. But suddenly Randy gets a name and a face? Why is Randy suddenly different than those others outside Dean killed them when he has the mark?


    Now I get the idea was to tell us Dean crossed a line but it gives Dean more reason to fall into self loathing and makes Sam and Cas look like dicks because we know so much history about them. Randy suddenly matters to them as himself more than the victims of Sam and Cas when they crossed the line. That Dean is more of a monster to them than they were going down a dark path. They aren't discussing Randy as how it is a sign that they have to worry more about Dean. They are discussing Randy in terms that kind of implies that Sam's real reason to keep that table between him and Dean is Dean is evil and a monster because Sam can argue that Randy was an ass but Randy himself mattered more than the nurse he slit the throat of or the sheriff he shot when soulless.

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  14. Ginger14 January 2015 at 22:46

    I hope this is the opening scene and the episode picks up from there. I haven't waited seven weeks to see angsting, guilt-ridden MoC Dean for the rest of the season. And, Dear Chuck, from Cas/Hannah to Grandpa Cas -- could that character be any less lackluster. At the moment, I am no impressed.

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  15. Kevin14 January 2015 at 22:49

    This clip sets the mood and gives off a good vibe about not only the situation but the episode in general.

    Like I harp many times over, Supernatural may not be as good as it once was but it's still one of my personal favorite shows on tv and I am thankful that it was renewed for an 11th season.


    Also it's great to see more scenes with Castiel working with the brothers. I absolutely hate when Castiel is off doing his own thing minus the brothers.

    I do understand Dean being upset over the situation. He slaughtered a bunch of humans. Maybe most of them deserved it but Randall did not deserve to die and Dean understands this. I mean if I accidently murdered a group of people, it would effect me negatively as well. Even if some of them deserved it, I don't think they all did.

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  16. Robanah14 January 2015 at 23:08

    Wait, what did happen to the Demon Tablet???? We know that the angel one was broken when Metatron was captured, but there was no conclusion to the Demon one. It kind of disappeared after Kevin put it back together and Crowley was captured.

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  17. gabygogo14 January 2015 at 23:46

    I don't think they meant Randy didn't deserve to die, I think they meant that he didn't deserve to die "that way", but you are right that they are discussing more than usual, kinda like Lester who was also a douche and was killed by the hands of Dean but "condemned" by Sam, though honestly I don't understand why they kept saying Sam sent him to Hell because the contract wasn't fulfilled (which was stated by Crowley) so technically speaking Lester's soul shouldn't be in Hell, well maybe it should but not because of the demon deal Sam tricked him into...sorry, I'm getting off subject. You are right though, it kinda does make it look like Sam and Cas don't have faith in him, but I think Sam does have more faith than Cas, considering Cas didn't even think the whole "reforming demon" thing would work to begin with. And with Sam...I don't know, Sam's usually harder for me to understand, yes he's keeping the table between them and he does look scared but I think there's that sense of concern, too. I mean Demon Dean almost killed Sam, obviously Sam doesn't want to deal with that again, hence the table, since he doesn't know where "Dean" is at that specific moment...I don't know, we'll just have to wait and see I guess...

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  18. Kevin14 January 2015 at 23:48

    Right. Last time we know I believe Metatron had both tablets. We may find out about it in this episode or we may not. He could have destroyed it or something.

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  19. gabygogo14 January 2015 at 23:49

    I see a lot of love and hate on this site; doesn't really matter what show, but I think that's okay, it adds for interesting discussion, but I agree something I never expected from any show to be quite honest and I'm so excited for it to become the longest running sci-fi show in North America as soon as 11.01 airs!

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  20. Hellboy14 January 2015 at 23:49

    Well, Carver was up front in saying this year wasn't going to have this big mytharc storyline like the others, it was going to be more about the characters and where they are, and less end of the world type of stuff.


    That said, I've noticed that Carver years, the first half of the seasons typically deal with Sam/Dean's emotional states and the second half dives head first into the meat of the story. So I'm gonna assume that the back half of the season will deal heavily with the MoC and Cas/Crowley subplots.

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  21. Hellboy14 January 2015 at 23:51

    I didn't read anything about not being integral in saving Dean, just Cas plays an important part. We don't know what Sam's role is in removing the MoC since Jared hasn't talked about it, like Misha has.

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  22. Hellboy14 January 2015 at 23:53

    Misha said in an interview that Cas plays an integral role in removing the MoC, that's all. Jared could give an interview tomorrow saying the same thing about Sam, but Jared hasn't talked about the back half yet.

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  23. Hellboy14 January 2015 at 23:56

    I didn't see them as eulogizing, I mean Sam straight says that all he did was use Claire. And then Cas tells him Claire's perspective, that Randy was one of the few kind people in her life, and so she's mourning. But also the characters don't know what Randy did, so for all they know he was just a scumbag that had kids steal for him.

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  24. AnnoDomini14 January 2015 at 23:57

    See, and that's something that just lights something up in my head. I haven't even thought how SPN being the longest running sci-fi show in North America as soon as it was mentioned of SPN being renewed for an 11th season. This show has made so many accomplishments, it's insane when thinking of how this show was The Little Show That Could.

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  25. Hellboy14 January 2015 at 23:59

    They also don't know that Randy was going to let Claire get raped, so from everyone's perspective he was just a kinda scummy guy that had kids steal for him.

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  26. gabygogo15 January 2015 at 00:11

    Ok, thank you! I hadn't heard about any of that...I'm trying to stay away from spoilers because I want to be surprised, but it's so hard...it's like cutting yourself off a drug or something...

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  27. lala215 January 2015 at 04:51

    Well, I guess I'm the only one who couldn't care less that Dean "slaughtered" the man who SOLD a teenager to a rapist, the would-be rapist and human trafficker, and all his pals. Honestly. I don't care at all. And this doesn't even rate as "dark" at all, IMO.

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  28. Misty Pebworth15 January 2015 at 05:45

    First time in a long time I can remember them giving a really decent spoiler. This made me hungry for more. Fighting amongst the fandom aside, I loved the emotional performance by all three. From subtle touches to outright statements, I felt the impact. And all this in a short clip. I really hope the back half of the season is a pleasant surprise.

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  29. fazziemodo15 January 2015 at 06:10

    You are kind of showcasing the subject. Randy is getting discussed as him himself didn't deserve to die that way, but look at Lester.


    Lester also didn't deserve to die the way he did even though he was a douche, he didn't deserve to be tricked into a demon deal and outside demon Dean, what has the discussion of Lester been? A two second exchange where Sam deflected when Dean asked what he felt about the subject saying he only did it because Dean was a demon.


    Both are dead, both are dead because of their interactions with the Winchesters but we get a discussion between two people who didn't do the killing about how Randy didn't deserve to die 'that way' but Lester doesn't get one?


    It kind of makes Randy more important than Lester is, that their faith in Dean is less than Dean in Sam's.

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  30. fazziemodo15 January 2015 at 06:19

    Randy's life has been discussed more than Lester's one.


    Lester wouldn't be dead if he hadn't met Sam to put the deal in motion so why does he deserve less analysis than Randy does by everyone? What we have had about Lester is no talk outside Sam only did it because Dean was a demon.


    They know Dean, fought with Dean, why does knowing what Randy did mean that they get more faith in Dean and worried about the effects the mark are having on him? Does knowing that Randy sold Claire out to a rapist mean that they suddenly become more concerned about Dean?


    Killing anyone for the fun of it is outside Dean's normal behaviour and they have never discussed people they killed in terms 'they didn't deserve to die like that' before so why now?

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  31. San Summer15 January 2015 at 09:31

    I don't think they meant Randy didn't deserve to die, I think they meant that he didn't deserve to die "that way"

    Are you saying that Sam and Castiel think that Randy didn’t deserve such a violent death but he didn’t deserve to live either? That doesn’t make much sense to me.

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  32. San Summer15 January 2015 at 09:50

    Sam never discussed the actions of the people he killed when soulless. But suddenly Randy gets a name and a face?

    Episode 6.13 Unforgiven was all about people who soulless Sam had hurt. Episode 6.22 The Man Who Knew Too Much also showcased someone who hadn’t deserved to be killed.

    They are discussing Randy in terms that kind of implies that Sam's real reason to keep that table between him and Dean is Dean is evil and a monster

    I’m not getting that from the clip at all.

    Discussing Randy in the terms they did kind of shows that both Sam and Cas have little faith in Dean

    What on earth? Castiel and Sam simply acknowledged what had happened.

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  33. chris68415 January 2015 at 10:29

    I think the concern is not supposed to be about Randy but about what Dean is becoming. Problem is that they've already established that they won't do anything that would damage Dean too much. He's already hit his ultimate low - a full fledged demon - but even then he was a sympathetic demon who protected abused women and sang karaoke

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  34. chris68415 January 2015 at 10:51

    The first half was mostly Dean heavy and Cas heavy. In theory the second half should focus on Sam and Crowley, but I don't think anyone's expecting that. The problem is that Sam/Dean aren't one entity. They can't just focus on Dean and check off Sam as dealt with too by default.

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  35. chris68415 January 2015 at 10:58

    I guess I'm the exception here in that I think Sam saving Dean should be a given - not something that needs to be negotiated for. The two saving each other has been an integral part of the show since the pilot (sometimes big saves and sometimes small case of the week saves). I want a chunk of the rest of the 22 episodes to have some focus on Sam too - not with Sam as a victim or plot device, but a story that has an emotional component and is just as much about Sam's character as it is about plot. I'm not sure why that seems so ambitious since it's common fare on just about every other tv show.

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  36. San Summer15 January 2015 at 11:50

    It almost looks like Dean was pouting about the mark even though he had demanded Cain to give him the mark in the first place and Dean hadn’t wanted to hear about the burden that comes with the mark.

    A good thing about the preview is that it establishes that there is no more lore regarding the mark so fans can quit harping on about Sam supposedly not having done enough research on Dean’s behalf.

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  37. chris68415 January 2015 at 12:11

    The root of this - that Dean can't let go of his unhealthy attachment to Sam, and did something that he knew would hurt Sam, and then took on the mark as a self-punishment - seems to have been forgotten. If we get through this whole storyline without any introspection and growth, this will have all been for nothing.

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  38. fazziemodo15 January 2015 at 12:16

    Unforgiven has Sam and Dean discussing Sam's victims when soulless, the Man who knew too much, had Sam interact with his victim. When was the last time we had two people not involved in a Winchester killing discuss a particular victim in terms of the victim 'not deserving it'. Last time I can think of is back in season two when Sam killed Casey the demon and the discussion that Bobby and Dean had was more in terms of what that meant to Sam. Not that the demon didn't deserve it.


    The writing in that clip and making Sam and Cas acknowledge what happened to Randy in terms that he didn't deserve what happened is cack handed and puts Cas and Sam in a bad light.


    If the idea is to finally make them realise how bad things have gotten for Dean it pushes it. It doesn't really showcase their concern for Dean because, it was Randy that didn't deserve it is their focus. Not the fact Dean was in the middle of a bunch of dead corpses that also may not have deserved it either. They don't know what happened they weren't there.


    They don't discuss how they knew Dean had the mark and shouldn't have left him alone, they don't discuss how Dean is changing. They discuss Randy and acknowledge Randy didn't deserve it.


    What if, say, Crowley turns up and says he's talked to Randy's soul and found out he out and out lied to Claire about what happened to the money then sold her to the bookie to save himself. Then the bookie hit Dean over the head twice and Dean only attacked after warning them? Does Randy deserve being killed then? Does that lessen the massacre? Does it mean Dean crossed the line less. No it doesn't. Dean still has a major problem they have to deal with just they have just shown Dean that they don't have any faith in him as Sam firmly keeps that table between him and his brother. So it seems more than just Sam feeling uncomfortable about being caught discussing what him and Cas were discussing.

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  39. fazziemodo15 January 2015 at 12:18

    We usually get that for Sam so it won't be a huge change if we don't.

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  40. Ambar Moreno Candelas15 January 2015 at 12:47

    OMG MY DEAN AND MY SAMMY!!! :OOOOO :´(

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  41. chris68415 January 2015 at 13:11

    You really think this concern wasn't about Dean but was about judging him? You can't just look at the few words in the clip. The bigger picture is that Sam has seemed reluctant to hunt with Dean all season for fear of how killing will change Dean, now that he has the mark.

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  42. chris68415 January 2015 at 13:13

    I want smarter and more consistent writing for both of them.

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  43. fazziemodo15 January 2015 at 16:06

    The writing of the anvil is what I'm complaining about. Why discuss how Randy didn't deserve it if it wasn't to serve two purposes. Firstly to drive home that the massacre was Dean crossing a line, because as you see from the comments people going on that they don't mourn the rapist scum or people who sell kids to them. But also make Dean feel guilty and worse about himself so to drive the story of the episode when Metatron turns up and Claire goes for whatever revenge she tries (which will probably involve Metatron).


    We don't need the anvil to tell us the massacre was a line that Dean crossed, we are smart enough to know that. We know Claire loved Randy because he was kind to her even though he was scum so she'd want to avenge him.


    But as I said they have never had two characters outside a Winchester kill discuss a victim as not deserving it in the same way Sam and Cas did there in the show. Not when Cas crossed a line or when Sam crossed a line. The anvil to tell us this other information without the history of having other similar conversations is the problem. If we had had other conversations like this one I'd have no problem, say having Cas and Dean saying how Lester didn't deserve to be used as bait in a devil deal or Dean and Sam discussing Cas killing Angels who fight back because they don't want to go back home.


    But to give us the anvils the writing pushes Cas and Sam to look hypocritical. As discussing Randy not deserving it is kind of saying Randy's death by Dean's hands is worse than a lot of the other deaths that shouldn't have happened at the hands of the Winchesters, that Dean's kill this time warranted them to discuss it in a way their kills have never needed to be discussed.

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  44. chris68415 January 2015 at 16:16

    I think I get what you're saying. I would need to see more of the scene to get a better feel for whether the dialogue is too heavy handed. My initial take on this was that Sam and Cas are talking about this because they're trying to work out in their own minds, as well as with each other, how far gone Dean is and what should be done. I recall Dean and Bobby having similar conversations about Sam and how far he was gone when he was locked up in the panic room in season 4. Again, the point was working through the problem and trying to figure out what to do next. It would seem more odd to me if Cas and Sam never talked about what they had seen.

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  45. gabygogo15 January 2015 at 16:33

    I'm not sure, I'm just saying from the way Sam says "we've had to kill before, but...that..." it seems like he's saying it's worse that Randy died through Dean's massacre...I'm not a writer for the show, it's just what I'm understanding and through comments and as I think longer about it, opinions change...I guess it depends if TFW knows what was going to happen to Claire had they not intervened.

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  46. gabygogo15 January 2015 at 16:40

    Ok, I understand where you are coming from. Both guys are dicks, both died at the hands of the Winchesters, I just think the only reason Randy is important is because of Claire...if Randy would have just been some other guy (doing the same things mind you, just no Claire) I don't think it would be as significant. Claire is the card changer here. Because she cared about Claire and because Cas cares and feels guilty about Claire, Randy now becomes a more significant figure. Also, everyone knows Dean crossed a line (by everyone I mean the audience), but IF TFW doesn't know what Randy had planned for Claire, it looks like Dean killed an "innocent" man which leads to the possibility of the Mark taking over...it's like if Galadriel was in Sam, there's that worry that something is going to take over and kill other "innocent" people or people they care about. They need to get rid of. That's what I'm understanding at this point. Don't know if I'm right or if I'm way off base. Also, Randy might not even get mentioned again after this scene, just have to wait.

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  47. gabygogo15 January 2015 at 16:41

    Very true.

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  48. fazziemodo15 January 2015 at 16:41

    The conversation in season 4 between Dean and Bobby didn't start with them discussing how the demon who Sam ripped the throat out of to get to their blood didn't deserve it. It was framed in terms of what to do with Sam and how not to let him turn into a monster.


    Framing Dean's actions in terms of Randy not deserving it maybe them trying to get a handle on things but it is a starting off point where Dean is much further gone than any point where Cas and Sam have been because them discussing the victim not the actions and we never needed that before. That means that what Dean did is now worse than anything they did, we didn't need that. The writers should have trusted we get that Randy and what is to be done about Dean should be two different issues for Sam and Cas, but now they have started to merge into the same one.


    As I said what happens if Crowley shows up says that he's seen Randy's soul found out he sold Claire to the bookie and Dean attacked after being hit in the head twice so letting the mark take over? It makes Sam and Cas' declaration Randy didn't deserve it look a little less shiny.

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  49. fazziemodo15 January 2015 at 17:24

    You may think so but we will see.


    I agree Cas maybe feeling protective of Claire but still and it doesn't take away that it is Sam who says 'we may have killed before... but...that' and how Randy didn't deserve it.


    This is Sam and Dean's his brother who is losing it, who said to Cas he was losing it. Who has been obviously losing it for a while. It doesn't matter if Randy deserved it or not in reality Dean is losing control doesn't make it better or worse. But as I keep saying having Sam discuss that Randy didn't deserve it or deserved it quantifies in the heads of the characters who are Dean's principal supports that Dean's actions are markedly different and worse than any other kill has been before.


    The reality is that they have to deal with Dean, Randy deserving it or not shouldn't come into it, just like the other men in that room. 'Deserving it' is subjective and the only person really affected in a positive by finding out Randy was worse scum than they thought would be Claire as it could cause her to drop any thoughts of revenge but even then she isn't simply going to say, 'he sold me to save himself for killing him is okay.' Dean is still going to be in a mess.


    By declaring that Randy didn't deserve it, then finding out he did would only serve to make Cas and Sam feel better and really in the situation that isn't the big concern.

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  50. lala215 January 2015 at 19:40

    He's already hit his ultimate low - a full fledged demon - but even then he was a sympathetic demon who protected abused women and sang karaoke. If they're going to replay this, they need a new angle.
    Exactly! This was my problem w/DD too. DD didn't do one interesting or controversial thing. I still wonder why Dean became a demon since it didn't really change him in any significant or interesting way.
    I know we're supposed to be worried about what Dean is becoming, but it is just hard for me to get all worked up b/c he killed murderers, rapists, and human traffickers. I just can't. Castiel killed thousands of innocent angels in Heaven. Soulless!Sam killed innocents during his hunts. Sam sanctioned the draining of a nurse! Both Sam and Castiel have committed questionable acts but they just let Dean kill "bad" people. What is up w/that? If they didn't want to "dirty" up the character, then they shouldn't have given him the MOC or made him a demon. I'm sure if Sam had gotten the MOC or become a demon, he would have slaughtered a bus full of children or puppies.

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  51. lala215 January 2015 at 19:47

    Randall sold a teenager to a rapist. He most certainly deserved death! Who cares about Randall? He was a user, manipulator, and an all-around bad individual!

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  52. lala215 January 2015 at 19:49

    No one should be discussing Randy (human trafficker) or Lester (murderer). Dean definitely shouldn't feel any guilt about Randy or those other losers he killed.

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  53. fazziemodo15 January 2015 at 21:05

    But as I said Dean killing anyone out of blood lust is not normal behaviour. That alone should push Sam and Cas to care and do something about it.


    It doesn't matter if the people deserved it or not. Dean needs help.


    But by discussing how Randy didn't deserve it kind of pushes them into kind of saying 'Well Dean is now a monster as Randy didn't deserve it. Dean has crossed a line worse than we did when we went dark.'


    Then they'll find out Randy was a sex trafficker and we can have Sam and Cas being able to go 'Oh Randy did kind of deserve it so we don't have to think about what Dean did was as bad. Dean's actually okay as Randy was an asshat too.' Does that mean they can also say ' We can go back to dancing around Dean needing help which we all know he wants us to give him but we have been in practice really just humouring him about.'


    With that being the case, Sam and Cas look like kind of dicks.

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  54. chris68415 January 2015 at 21:49

    "What was the point of the DD arc?"



    Last summer I was on the fence about continuing reviews and monitoring the interviews as they came up for something to help me make up my mind. There were a couple of interviews that stand out - one with Carver and one with Singer. In one, I think it was Carver, he says they came up with the idea of DD while seeing the Cain episode. So much for the advance planning theory, and that the first half and Sam's possession led to Dean's demon state. In the other, Singer, I think, says that after ending the season with Dean a demon, they had to go back over the summer and decide where to go with it from there.


    I think that answers your question, when we have both EPs publicly admitting that they're not planning out their major arcs in advance. I kept hearing that the show was forced to pull back on DD quickly because the 200th episode was coming up, but my questions to that are: Didn't they know the 200th was coming last season? Did someone miscount??

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  55. Hellboy16 January 2015 at 02:46

    Even Kripke admitted that's how he ran the show, he only had a vague of idea of how he wanted to end it, but basically figured out the seasons as they went along. I mean you could tell from the various dropped subplots during his tenure.

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  56. chris68416 January 2015 at 12:41

    And it showed. I'd say most of the sentimentality for those years is about Sam and Dean feeling like real people rather than a vague outline of a character with no substance and his puffed up, infallible superhero brother. That and more creativity in the scripts. Not continuity in the major arcs.

    Ultimately you get judged by what you put out there. Now it seems like there's not only a lack of a planning from season to season but from episode to episode. There was a lot of speculation about what implications the Metatron rewriting the story episode had. Turns out it had none because there was no long term plan that it fit into.

    I can't get excited about season finales anymore because I know whatever cliff hanger they leave us with will be promptly swept under the rug within one or two episodes. This was true with Sam ending season 5 pumped up on demon blood and falling into the cage with Lucifer after years of buildup about the Sam/ lucifer connection, and then emerging with a difference focus and no wrap up to the lucifer or demon blood part of the story. It was true the next year with the idea of Cas creating a major disturbance in the natural order by using souls as power, and then it being over in 7.1. It was true the next year when Dean and Cas were stranded in Purgarory, only to find the worst thing that happened is that Dean misremembered that Cas didn't make it through the portal. It was true the next year when the gates of hell idea was promply dropped and we never even found out whether the trials purified Sam, or what effect they had on him. And it was true this year when Deanmon was dropped on episode 3 because someone remembered that they were approaching the 200th episode.

    Just because someone else did it too, it doesn't change the fact that the lack of some kind of planned out plot isn't a huge criticism. I understand some tweaking of the details as you go along, but I would expect some level of a long term outline to be in place, with the current season pretty well laid out.

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  57. spnmonster16 January 2015 at 17:09

    None of them know that Randy sold Claire to the bookie though. Viewers saw that scene but none of them were in the room at the time. All they know is that Randy was having her steal for him. That doesn't make him a good guy, but it appears far less horrible.

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  58. spnmonster16 January 2015 at 17:21

    But Cas and Sam never called Dean a monster. Sam hesitated as though searching for words, which was set up so Dean could walk in and characterize it as a massacre himself.

    Sam has been concerned since THINMAN at least about how the Mark was effecting Dean. Regarding the way Dean killed in that ep, Sam said, "They were just people, man. They weren't...demons. They weren't monsters. They...were just frickin' people." So maybe Sam hasn't talked about Dean killing humans to someone else this way, but he talked directly to Dean about it.

    The writers have tried to make a pretense of the Winchesters not using the same criteria to kill humans that they use to kill monsters. They've tried to maintain that line between human and monster, perhaps because there's a justice system to deal with human monsters. Of course, we know that they kill possessed people all the time without much outward remorse. That's a whole other issue.

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  59. spnmonster16 January 2015 at 17:36

    The problem is that the producers and writers are a bunch of gutless wonders who want to write melodrama instead of horror. Just as there aren't any scares anymore, they are unwilling to have the leads do anything really awful. Distasteful maybe; questionable, sure; but not twisted, cruel or horrible.

    Before the season started, Carver, I think it was, said that fans would be questioning who the monster is -- Sam or Dean. How about neither? Sam tortured a demon and taught a low-life how to sell his soul. Dean slaughtered a bunch of disgusting irredeemable criminals. So what? That's the problem.

    I'm not going to fault them for not having a long-term outline to go by. That doesn't prevent them from writing tense, edgy, tightly written scripts. If you are going to call the boys monsters, you have to be willing to go there.

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  60. spnmonster16 January 2015 at 17:39

    I think from most fans' perspective Randy did deserve it. He sold Claire to a rapist. Cas and the boys don't know that however so I can understand them thinking Randy didn't deserve it when he deserved far worse.

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  61. spnmonster16 January 2015 at 17:41

    I honestly don't think they know what to do with Cas. They keep him because he's popular with some fans and he takes up screen time so Jared and Jensen can have more time off. There's no narrative reason to keep him on the show. The war in heaven is just so much background noise at this point. As long as they keep it going they don't have to work too hard and building myth arcs.

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  62. spnmonster16 January 2015 at 17:46

    I think we're seriously overanalyzing this scene.
    Agreed. And Dean is the one who characterized the killings as a massacre, not Cas and Sam. I think some are reading far too much into Cas and Sam's conversation regarding Randy.

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  63. spnmonster16 January 2015 at 17:58

    Yeah, I think my gripe with the way Sam has been written the past couple of seasons in particular is that even when the "myth arc" appears to be about him, he is often a passive character whom others -- Dean, Gadreel, Cas, Crowley -- act upon rather than a character with agency who gets things done. So, like you, I want Sam to have a story that he is active in. And you're right, that shouldn't seem ambitious. It wouldn't be in any other show. I can't help but think of conversations I've had elsewhere in which it has been posited that Sam is the "female" character in the show because that's how he is frequently treated by the writers.

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  64. spnmonster16 January 2015 at 18:01

    "ensemble show" ack! (yes that was a furball, Ima put it in Carver's Wheaties)

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  65. fazziemodo16 January 2015 at 19:22

    The hesitation and the discussion itself gives the implication that Dean has crossed a line further than anyone has before. What crosses those lines - monsters.


    Dean just voiced what Sam and Cas through the conversation were obviously thinking and I'm just saying that is what is being implied by all three. The mark is making Dean a monster.


    And yes there is a justice system, but Randy wasn't the first victim of TFW who didn't deserve to be killed and none of the rest warrant those outside the kill to dissect it without the presence of the person who did the kill. Meaning this kill in particular is different than Cas killing the nephilim for the spell (something just Dean and Cas talked about) or Sam and Lester's deal (something only Dean and Sam talked about).


    Also what does finding out about Randy being a sex trafficker make Dean killing everyone in that room better? Absolutely nothing apart from Sam and Cas feeling better about Randy not being such an innocent that was killed.


    Dean still crossed a line he has been teetering on the edge of since Thinman and Sam has known that since then. He just hoped that he wouldn't have to deal with it because a) he was still angry with Dean and b) it is usually him needing someone else to sort out the effects of a supernatural thing.

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  66. spnmonster16 January 2015 at 19:38

    Sam "just hoped that he wouldn't have to deal with it because a) he was still
    angry with Dean and b) it is usually him needing someone else to sort
    out the effects of a supernatural thing."

    Ah, okay, I get it now. Never mind.

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  67. San Summer16 January 2015 at 20:17

    I'm not sure, I'm just saying from the way Sam says "we've had to kill before, but...that..." it seems like he's saying it's worse that Randy died through Dean's massacre...

    I took that line to simply mean that Dean has never gone that far before while still being more or less himself.

    I think that the characters are able to deduce that Randy wouldn’t have gotten a death sentence for what he did (they can’t be above the law when it comes to certain things) and Randy wasn’t amongst those who threatened Dean’s safety.

    I don’t think that the mark took over just to protect Dean. More like no one’s gonna mess with Dean when he has the mark of Cain. He killed everyone in the house so it wasn’t justifiable homicide anymore.

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  68. fazziemodo16 January 2015 at 20:26

    Sam is use to Dean pulling himself together enough to still function when he falls apart. He isn't use to being the one that has to deal with family members in trouble.


    Dean is the one who sorts that out because he is the big brother. He is the one that pulls Sam backside out of the fire when he is falling apart. It doesn't happen the other way around usually in a way that Sam actually has to physically deal with Dean falling apart.

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  69. San Summer16 January 2015 at 22:07

    Maybe the writers wanted to make sure that the deaths wouldn’t be handwaved because Dean is a fan favorite.

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  70. Hellboy18 January 2015 at 04:37

    As much as I like Misha and Cas, I do hope this is the end for him. It seems that way, with Heaven back in order and the whole plot with Hannah leading to him questioning the effects the angels truly have/had on their vessels.


    And then there is the whole dead Jimmy thing, which makes no sense. It would have been better if they said that all his exploding deaths left the soul so traumatized Jimmy would be in a catatonic state, essentially dead, but still alive. Or he could have still been alive through it all, and had Misha play Jimmy trying to figure out his place in the world -- Claire and his wife have moved on, and doesn't want to ruin their new lives/family, etc... Two way more interesting things they could have done instead of saying Jimmy's dead and gone (not to mention it plays into the shippers BS).

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  71. Hellboy18 January 2015 at 04:38

    Plus all the lore would be wrong anyways, as it's all under the assumption that God gave Cain the mark as a punishment.

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  72. CyanaT18 January 2015 at 05:01

    Yeah, Gadreel(Sam) gave the two tablets to Metatron in Road Trip. I'm assuming Metatron didn't destroy it yet - maybe he was planning on using it for something before he got locked up.

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  73. chris68418 January 2015 at 22:13

    The bible story? Assuming all lore is wrong is assuming:

    a) that the bible is the only version of lore that exists and that no other culture noticed a super demon creating a master race of demons.

    b) that Cain's version is correct, and he wasn't totally misreading the situation because he couldn't put faith in his younger brother, and automatically assumed without question that he was right and Abel was wrong. It wouldn't be unthinkable that Lucifer manipulated him and the mark was, in fact, from God.

    c) Cain was being truthful with Dean, and that he didn't in fact get the mark because of his bloodlust. Given that Dean didn't take the mark to save his brother, and that he was deemed worthy after exhibiting a thirst and talent for killing (he was there because he had a need to kill something), the situation would seem to point at Cain being less than forthcoming.

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  74. fazziemodo19 January 2015 at 09:10

    By throwing in the fact that Randy willingly sold Claire out to a rapist it is going to get handwaved to a large extent.


    Dean getting hit on the head and no longer being concious enough to keep control was enough to get to the point and would have allowed Sam and Cas to have that conversation and not have fans go 'wait till they find out what Randy did to Claire'

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