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SpoilerTV - TV Spoilers

Arrow - Episode 3.15 - Title Revealed

Jan 1, 2015

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Episode 3.15 of Arrow is titled "Nanda Parbat", SpoilerTV has confirmed.
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69 comments:

  1. arrowshieldfanJanuary 1, 2015 at 9:18 AM

    I wonder if this is another episode that will feature outside the city? there has to be reason why it is named "Nanda Parbat"

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  2. ForouzanJanuary 1, 2015 at 9:20 AM

    we knew, but you confirmed it thanks. :D Malcolm's flashback for the time he was in the League, Maybe.

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  3. Spindae2January 1, 2015 at 9:20 AM

    Happy New Year guys. This year starts interesting.
    Nandu Parbat sounds good!

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  4. Pascal219January 1, 2015 at 10:43 AM

    Should provide some interesting backstory, with Ra's and Merlyn having been there. Oliver possibly having been there! Awesome!

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  5. DanielJanuary 1, 2015 at 10:44 AM

    Oh, that would be awesome! I would love seeing flashbacks from Merlyn's time at the LoA.

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  6. KokyJanuary 1, 2015 at 10:45 AM

    Ra's and Nyssa flashback? Malcolm Flashback? Sara Flashback? Oliver getting rescued flashback? Maseo joining the league flashback? Someone going there in present day for some reason? I'm getting a headache!

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  7. Nicolás FestaJanuary 1, 2015 at 11:53 AM

    This will be the Malcolm flashback episode Guggenheim talked about, i think... Well, i strongly believe Malcolm will use Oliver as a totem to make League memeber questioning Ra's. He will take over the League with Oliver, betray him and use the assassins to finish his plan of Season 1.

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  8. Nicolás FestaJanuary 1, 2015 at 11:54 AM

    Well, the EPs confirmed we'll get a Malcolm Flashback episode when he met Ra's on Nanda Parbat, soooooo... xD

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  9. ivanJanuary 1, 2015 at 12:21 PM

    yeah i know i guess i'm just hoping LOL, hey it might be both LOL

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  10. ivanJanuary 1, 2015 at 12:22 PM

    you think Merlyn's that ambitious?

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  11. lsbloomJanuary 1, 2015 at 1:02 PM

    Okay, I'll admit I don't understand the Malcolm love, but for me, if they don't give him a logical reason for existing soon, I'm going to start getting seriously annoyed. This season is adrift with too many disjointed plots going nowhere. I don't give a crap about Merlyn flashbacks or anything else until he has a coherent plot. Just focus on Oliver.

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  12. lsbloomJanuary 1, 2015 at 1:05 PM

    5 episodes later? That doesn't seem a little... I don't know...late? They aren't really going to spin their wheels on this until March?!?!

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  13. Justyna KubicaJanuary 1, 2015 at 1:32 PM

    Sara flashback? I remember reading somewhere that we are going to see her start in the League.

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  14. Joy HaldarJanuary 1, 2015 at 1:45 PM

    That's why i said maybe.I agree Arrow is not on of those shows which drag a storyline for ages,so my option seems unlikely.

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  15. miracle2012January 1, 2015 at 1:54 PM

    More Sara would be great! :)

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  16. miracle2012January 1, 2015 at 1:57 PM

    Or all of it? ;) I'll arrange the aspirins, just to be prepared...

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  17. Nicolás FestaJanuary 1, 2015 at 2:30 PM

    Oliver is back on Starling by the end of 3x12...

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  18. Nicolás FestaJanuary 1, 2015 at 2:35 PM

    There's no way Ra's is the big bad of this Season... Merlyn is the one left.

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  19. lsbloomJanuary 1, 2015 at 3:02 PM

    Actually, I think they are dragging. 9 episodes for the worst who killed Sara reveal? That's why your theory worried me. 5-6 episodes until we move forward at all on the mid-season finale puzzle? They are jumping around to all these secondary story lines and getting nowhere on having a main plot. I'm concerned.

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  20. migotka21January 1, 2015 at 3:20 PM

    or a new unexpected baddie?

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  21. NancyJanuary 1, 2015 at 3:51 PM

    I think thIs episode will feature two time periods. First: the present day what is done with Oliver's body And in flashback what Malcolm Merlyn did when he first came to Nanda Parbat or even possibly how he may have brokered the deal with R'as to be pardoned for The Undertaking in return for orchestrating Sarah's murder.

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  22. Joy HaldarJanuary 1, 2015 at 4:21 PM

    Season 3 is a little disorganized compared to the previous season.In season 2,we knew what the end goal of the team was but this season we have no idea where this is all going.As a non-comic book fan,i'm more puzzled than ever.

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  23. SparkyJanuary 1, 2015 at 4:59 PM

    I think this is the episode where we get to see Malcom in flashbacks and we will get appearance of young Nyssa. Berlanti teased not long ago that they are casting for a 9-12 year old girl to play young Nyssa. And he implied we will see that she picked up her skills from an early age.

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  24. MckGJanuary 1, 2015 at 5:03 PM

    I doubt it's going to be present day of what happens to Oliver's body, since he's going to be back at least 2 episodes before this...


    I still worry that they're going to do something unrealistic and stupid again for Oliver being rescued. I mean, Ra's would make most sense, but not if he's going to train Oliver as one of the League, so it should be something different.


    And as much as John Barrowman already made people think so, the WORST decision they could make at this point, is having Malcolm save Oliver or something.


    And I really don't hope this ep is going to show flashbacks from Malcolm, because I don't give a rat's ass about his backstory or whatever, just let that guy die already and stop making him so important. He isn't sad, I've never really felt bad for him, specially not since this show keeps just forgetting that it was Malcolm's fault about Tommy, and no one else's, but hey, it's Malcolm, so who gives a fuck, right?

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  25. KokyJanuary 1, 2015 at 5:04 PM

    We are going to need a whole bottle lol

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  26. MckGJanuary 1, 2015 at 5:06 PM

    Seriously? Well, that would totally prove once again that in the writer's and producers eyes, this show is 10 times more about Malcolm, than it ever is and will be about Oliver...


    Malcolm has been getting EXACTLY what he wants for almost 2 straight seasons now, something THAT stupid would be the downfall of this show.


    Like Malcolm saving Oliver, already VERY stupid if they really did that. Just let Ra's be impressed with Oliver, ressurrect him and him make a deal with Oliver to kill the plague that is Malcolm >.< And then Ra's betray him, even that would make a lot more difference than Oliver actually helping Malcolm in taking over the League, honestly.


    So I'm tettling you, if it starts with John Barrowman again being put in the center spotlight of this show, him being the one that saves Oliver and indeed something along the lines of what you said, would just be... Ugh.

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  27. MckGJanuary 1, 2015 at 5:09 PM

    Yeah, or on Thea as they were saying over and over again before the season started, how this was going to be her season. But really? This entire season has been mostly about Malcolm being overly awesome in their eyes, and everythign he's done just being forgiving or whatever, and ruinign Thea in the process. But seriously, Thea keeps being put in the background, while freaking Laurel of all people, next to Malcolm thus, gets the freaking spotlights.


    I REALLY hope they'll kill Malcolm off soon, because I'm really, really, really getting sick and tired of that guy. There is no logical reasoning for him. If you do this to your son first, knock him out and leave him to die basically, and then brainwashing your daughter into a killer. There is no possible logic to justify that. But they will try, head my words, they love john Barrowman SO much as an actor, they freaking will try.

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  28. AnnoDominiJanuary 1, 2015 at 6:26 PM

    I was thinking the same thing, as in a Merlyn-heavy episode. We had heard before that we'd get flashbacks of Merlyn's life because the audience doesn't know everything about him, such as his past.

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  29. GraydonJanuary 1, 2015 at 6:36 PM

    We had no idea at this point last year of what the team's end goal was last season except maybe Oliver being more heroic and taking down the man in the skull mask (as he was known as then). And right now there shouldn't really be one (except take Merlyn down maybe) anyway since Oliver's kinda dead.

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  30. Joy HaldarJanuary 1, 2015 at 6:50 PM

    I always knew slade will come back in present time to seek revenge When they started focusing too much on slade and oliver dynamic in the FBs last season,so i knew their primary goal was to take down slade by the season end being a team.The details in between was surprising & good hour of television.But that is just my POV,u don't have to see it the same way.I'm not too much invested in this show,i just watch and enjoy the show.For me,the FBs this season is also very weak compared to season 2.

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  31. Nicolás FestaJanuary 1, 2015 at 7:35 PM

    Well, i see Season 3 as The Full Circle. In Season 1 Merlyn told Oliver he couldn't beat him because he didn't knew what he was fighting for.
    I think Merlyn will be killed/taken prisoner by Ra's for good this Season. Oliver will beat him in fair game and will be the moment he becomes The Green Arrow.
    Oliver motivation's to exile Ra's are pretty obvious, once he finds out he's still alive Ra's will want him dead, and not forget Thea killing Sara.


    The thing is that it's just Season 3... It's way too early to make Oliver capable of defeating Ra's. THAT would be a total "jump the shark moment" for me.

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  32. Nicolás FestaJanuary 1, 2015 at 7:41 PM

    He still has his HIVE story, but the show has only 23 episodes of 43 minutes per Season and 7 characters. A charcater like Felicity needed a story off Team Arrow and we need to know more about Roy's perosnal life too. These two need to shine a bit and have some personal stories.
    Once those storylines are done, then we can expand characters already are explored.

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  33. MckGJanuary 1, 2015 at 9:26 PM

    It's still not particularly fair either dat Ra's would just kill Thea for something she had no control over and even no knowledge. Specially since he doen't actually care about Sara, but more about the image of the League.


    But that's exactly my point. I don't expect him to be able to beat Ra's, my problem is with Malcolm. I'm not going to be able to handle it too much longer with more team-ups of them and Malcolm saving him or whatever, but alsn not of all his mind-games ruining the characters kind of.

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  34. migotka21January 1, 2015 at 9:52 PM

    I DO hope so, he deserves a better season.

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  35. GraydonJanuary 2, 2015 at 1:50 AM

    That's a huge leap in logic to assume that. Did I know Slade was a villain and Oliver tried to kill him, at that point yes (though the wintergreen thing through that a bit), but besides that at this point last year we didn't know everything. The what?

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  36. ivanJanuary 2, 2015 at 2:38 AM

    oh ok then never mind LOL

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  37. Derek117January 2, 2015 at 5:47 AM

    Wow! Just read all the speculation about this episode...and so many of the comments make sense. Which is kind of a problem: as someone pointed out, the Arrow writers continuously throw snippets of plots out there, and then don't develop them. So, whenever a new arc begins, you have to wonder what string they're going to pick up.


    My Best Guess is that "Nanda Parbat" will go into a little more detail about how Oliver has come back to life (in episode #12). This is consistent with the show's style of not telling everything at once--and Oliver's return will be before "Nanda Parbat" but we won't know exactly how he survived/was resurrected.


    The other point that has been made by comments on this episode, has to do with "who" is this season's Big Bad? Malcolm or Ra's. I'm not sure the writers have made a clear decision, and may try to have them both as the season's villain. Certainly John Barrowman is a favorite of the writers, so he'll get a lot of air time.


    Finally, I can't even begin to think "when" the much-anticipated Showdown will occur between Thea and the newly-minted Laurel/Canary? Could be put off until next season. We'll see.

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  38. ivanJanuary 2, 2015 at 6:26 AM

    the creators confirmed Ra's Al Ghul is the Big Bad

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  39. Nicolás FestaJanuary 2, 2015 at 10:09 AM

    Ok, yeah... They also confirm Oliver is dead Jajaja They won't tell you their plan xD


    Your answear is hilarious xD

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  40. Nicolás FestaJanuary 2, 2015 at 10:26 AM

    The Ra's/Thea thing makes total sense, think of it this way: Merlyn has a video of Thea killing Sara. Oliver will tell him Merlyn made her do it, but he can't prove it and it's obvious he will say anything to save her. Sara was tracking Malcolm. Sara was a "problem" for Thea's new found dad.
    Ra's can't guess, he doesn't have that many patience... He would just kill the three of them and end it all. Oliver might be spared, but Thea will surely be killed.


    I really think this will be Malcolm's last Season. Oliver is willing to do whatever it takes to save Thea and aid Malcolm is his best chance.


    Also, Green Arrow doesn't have too many "cool" villains and now with Gotham, they can't use most of Batman's roster. Keeping The Magician for one more Season was wise. I'm biased since i'm a huge John Barrowman fan, so i might not the the best judge on that matter jejeje

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  41. lsbloomJanuary 2, 2015 at 3:44 PM

    We knew the mirakuru plot by now last season. There was a direction. Also they didn't totally undermine their hero arc last season, like they just did here.

    Oliver and the league have already come to a head. He was killed. Done. In fact the conflict with the league over Sara's death was so bad and nonsensical I never want to even hear of it again and it was the only plot going. They are in a horrible place writing-wise and with no Oliver for who knows how long I'm not sure when they are going to find the plot. They are trying to make this the season of secondary characters but all their secondary characters suck and aren't connected to anything but the terrible who killed Sara plot. And they are all in conflict with Oliver which they should have learned doesn't make for sympathetic storylines.

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  42. MckGJanuary 2, 2015 at 4:27 PM

    Seriously? Surely if Ra's is semi-omnipitent or however you write that, you'd think he can use his freaking eyes and see the hollow look in Thea's eyes. That a Master Assassin would freaking know about the method that Malcolm used. but no, because the only one in the Arrow-verse that usually has brains, voila, is Malcolm! >.<


    But I'm just saying, after all the ruining of Thea this season, I'm really starting to think that they're gonna be bastards and actually let Thea die this season by Ra's hands or something... Or like I've said before, Thea's gonna commit freaking suicide once she's seen the video and knows what she's done... Besides, they're still doing EVERY overly desperate attempt to NOT make her Speedy after all so... Killing her is proably not so far-fetched, even if it would mean that me and probably a couple of other people would never watch it ever again.


    Okay seriously, what kind of bullshit is that? I know that Gotham is DC too, but seriously? It's like 20/30 years or whatever in the past, it's on a different network, and in a city that hasn't been named in Arrow ever, so if DC really fucks up Arrow and takes away all the rest of the villains and stuff, then I suppose this is the last season we'll get from this show? If DC has a brain, and I hope they do, they just mix it up, and don't start being greedy now.


    I am and was a John Barrowman fan too, but honestly... After the whole hint from him that he might be the one saving Oliver and stuff... He's getting a little too full of himself if you ask me. As I said, we get it, this show is mostly about him, he doesn't have to keep rubbing it in... Just like how it was HIS idea that either Oliver or Thea would be Malcolm's kid, so, thanks for that ruining of characters... "Oeh yeah, I know your alive for five minutes, but since you said once that you care for Thea, I believe you instantly and make the League of Assassins enemies as I vow that you're under my protection." Honestly, the WORST and most fake decision they've ever made on this show.

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  43. MckGJanuary 2, 2015 at 4:33 PM

    Roy's had his season already ov development, even this season he's basically already been named Arsenal, so if you don't mind, his storyline should just fuck off for a while now and finally let the writers and producers keep to their word and NOT make this season about EVERY SINGLE PERSON in the Arrowverse to get development INSTEAD of Thea.


    And Felicity is just annoying the living crap out of me this season, her outbursts to Oliver are just... Totally weird and out of the blue, and then the next minute she's acting like she actually gives a crap, which I know she does, but still... I don't know, I mean, we've already gotten confirmed again that we're gonna get more Roy and Felicity the rest of the second half of the season, and still barely any actual word about Thea.


    The only thing I do know about Thea right now is that she's gonna suspect something more is behind Ollie's dissapearance and she's gonna ask the worst people psossible about it. The guy with the annoying smug face that I REALLY want to see shocked when he finally gets boned and killed.


    But so, you really think that it's only Felicity and Roy that need expanding, before we can go back in the circle and back to Diggle? No one or anythign else?

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  44. miracle2012January 2, 2015 at 5:18 PM

    Oliver will be back at the end of 3.12.

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  45. GraydonJanuary 2, 2015 at 8:56 PM

    They're not in a horrible place. Furthermore, no characters except Ra's are in conflict with Oliver except maybe Merlyn. You want to know the plot? Simple next episode will deal with the team grieving and defending Starling City in Oliver's absence, as well as Laurel beginning her journey as Black Canary while finding some peace over Sara's death (episodes 10, 11, 13 are called the Canary trilogy) then Oliver returns in episode 12 and stuff goes batshit crazy which will bring the conflict with Ra's to a head by the finale. Undermine the hero arc? Oliver just died saving his sister. That is the mark of a true hero, if you don't get that then you don't get superheroes. They're not making it a season of secondary characters, they're just giving them focus like every other season of Arrow has done.

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  46. MckGJanuary 4, 2015 at 3:54 PM

    Hm, yeah, if they want to ruin their characters even more, sure, let them fight, either this season or next season... But if they want to keep it realistic and grounded, like they said about this season, screw that and let them actually use their brains. Laurel loved/loves Thea, she practically admitted multiple times that she almost saw her like a sister. All she'll have to do is listen for a second to realize that Thea had no control over what happened, and just focus her attention on Malcolm instead. It's seriously about time that they let Thea get more toward joining the team, instead of Laurel AGAIn becoming super annoying and blinded by her rage and pushing her toward Malcolm even moe again >.<


    And yes, we've already established that John Barrowman is a favorite of the writers... I mean, why do you think they listened to him when they turned Thea into his daughter? Seriously... We get it, he's awesome, but Malcolm isn't, and I'm really getting sick and tired of this show becoming more and more about him every episode, and less about Oliver.


    I get what you mean, but let's not joke ourselves, they've never REALLY had Malcolm as a villain, from the first moment they introduced him, he's been some: 'Oh feel so bad for me!' Anti-hero bullshit or whatever... Just like he managed to do without much of any effort at all with Thea, the writers just expect us to do the same, just like with this episode most likely. More flashbacks probably about how we should feel bad for him, well no way. Just let him freaking die already, so that, you know, Oliver can have the only family he has left on his side, instead of ruining her even more and more and more every freaking episode too?


    And I was just starting to like Laurel, so... I REALLY hope that that showdown doesn't happen, because it's bullshit to blame Thea for something and "make her suffer" for something she didn't do and doesn't even freaking remember!

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  47. Derek117January 4, 2015 at 7:10 PM

    I feel your frustrations--but am not sure the writers will respond to them. My observation is that sometimes series' writers amp up the frustration of viewers as a way of creating buzz for the show. People posting comments on sites like this, positive or negative, creates buzz.

    BTW, I got the chance to chat, very briefly, with Willa Holland at last year's San Diego Comic-Con, and she's very excited about playing a Baddie this season. And, Katie Cassidy seemed happy to be getting the Canary role she was promised when she originally signed on to the show three years ago. So, having story arcs that lead to a Thea/Laurel fight is one way to give both of them more screen time, and more focus on their characters.

    Lastly, the writers probably feel that a Superhero has to have a Super-villain, which Slade definitely was last year. Slade's presence dominated many of the episodes of season 2. That has been missing in Season 3, and IMO the show has suffered. Either Malcolm or Ra's needs to fill this void.

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  48. MckGJanuary 5, 2015 at 12:42 AM

    I live in a country where the only way I can officially watch it is through my Xbox, apart from that nothing I do matters anyway, so I guess in a way sites like this is the only way I can do something.


    Yeah, maybe, but it will only show that Laurel is still just untrustworthy when it comes to the people she cares about, she can just flip a switch and suddenly hate your guts and lead you int oyour death. Not to mention that it means Malcolm is going to brainwash Thea more, which in my opnion still means that she's less and less likely to really ever recover and become Speedy, stuff like that gets to a person. Which I do recall reading an interview and watching one where she also said she really wanted to do that.


    Well, that's just it, isn't it? They've spent almost one and a half season now mostly protraying Malcolm as some... Anti-hero, not even but with lack of a better word, and Ra's just had his build up so will probably start filling it. But it's weird, because Malcolm, the Dark archer is supposed to be his nemesis, the whole Supervillain thing, while in a little accordance with the rest of the Green Arrow story, I thought Slade should be more of the anti-hero.

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  49. lsbloomJanuary 6, 2015 at 8:57 PM

    Hey let's just say you are being condescending and rude.


    The "hero arc" was last season's plot of Oliver trying to transition from vigilante to hero. At the mid-season finale you had a step forward on that character arc with the symbolic new mask. This season is the "identity arc" and after treading water barely accomplishing anything but showing a frustrated Oliver--they killed Oliver. And while dying for your sister might be heroic, it isn't exactly making positive progress on the "not dying down here" theme. As it is exactly the opposite. It has to affect him, and it can't logically be pushing him into the "you can be both" direction, it is a major step back and that's if, IF, they don't mess with his brain post-Lazarus Pit.


    None of the other character's are in conflict with Oliver? Merlyn's story is in conflict with Oliver because he killed Sara to manipulate Oliver and subsequently got him killed. Thea's story is in conflict with Oliver because she continues to align herself with a crazy psychopath against Oliver. Laurel's story is in conflict with Oliver because he doesn't want her to become a vigilante and start killing people. All of those stories center around Sara's death. That is bringing them together and that is putting them in conflict with Oliver.

    I'm talking about having an [i]overarching plot[/i], not one-off stories with secondary characters, which thanks so much for listing like I'm not regularly on SpoilerTV or not commenting on a episode title and therefore must be completely unaware of what is happening for the next few episodes. You said they didn't have one at this point last year, and I said yes they did. I went on to say, not only do they not have one yet, they're not going to get one with Oliver for a while, because even if he appears in an episode, we aren't just going to pick up where we left off. They're spinning tires in the mud trying to get something going without Oliver--what is that? Oliver is the show. He needs direction on both his main plot and his character arc.

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  50. lsbloomJanuary 6, 2015 at 9:03 PM

    Maybe? Maybe we just see him. Maybe he's deranged. Maybe he has memory loss. Maybe he's under the League's thrall. Who knows where they are going with the character, as they've completely undermined they road map from The Calm, so I have no clue when we'll see Oliver-Oliver back.

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  51. miracle2012January 6, 2015 at 9:57 PM

    But isn't that the theme of S3? Identity? We don't know who he will be when he's back, maybe even Oliver won't know who he is, what he wants, where he stands, what happened to him. I think it's a bit phoenix-like, to die or hopefully in Oliver's case nearly die and be resurrected to redefine himself. It's a part of his journey to find his identity, to find out if he's The Arrow or Oliver Queen or both. Or maybe I'm totally wrong. ;)

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  52. lsbloomJanuary 6, 2015 at 10:21 PM

    You may be right. I was certainly under the impression that S3 was supposed to be about identity--although we've seen very little to support that journey. Personally, adding a "phoenix" to the mix would be mixing a lot of metaphors for me. He's already been through a "crucible" and fought through hell in order to redefine himself. A lazarus pit or whatever at this stage seems cheap in comparison to that year's long journey. Additionally, using death (and death by sacrifice) as a catalyst to accepting being alive and part of society and an inspiration for hope is completely antithetical to why and how Oliver died.

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  53. GraydonJanuary 7, 2015 at 3:42 AM

    A) Oliver is a hero because he's self-sacrificing and courageous and protects others no matter what he's a hero. B) That theme of not dying down here was explored when he wrnt to Dig's for dinner, decorated a tree and spent time with Thea, and was going to tell Felicity his feelings for her. C) Dying for your sister (which wasn't his intention) demonstrates his connection to his humanity which he fears losing if he stays down there. D) Lazarus pits are temporarily as in minutes on the effect on people. Only worsen if a person has used them repeatedly over years. E) You're still assuming without any del evidence the pits will be involved. F) I mentioned Merlyn. Thea would count except hey she has no idea about ANYTHING Merlyn has done nor has she helped him. She's not involved at all. That's a conflict in desire but it's not actually affecting Oliver's story (though every season has had characters have that- it's essential to a show having a plot). You're really, really reaching here. zYou're basically mad that a show is branching off plots from one central one (which again Arrow has done so often in the past- hell with every major plot and arc and most shows do this even Seinfeld did that) Finally Oliver is not the sun. Other characters have plots importance and need focus like on every show and every other season of Arrow. If you don't like that they're devoting time away fine, but again just because Olive isn't in Starling City it doesn't mean he won't be off with his rescuer and he'll still be in flashbacks. Three last things, the show isn't spinning its tires it's establishing plot and character with Oliver's "death", and saving, the fallout of his death, the story and arcs of Ray and Laurel and of course it can't pick up where it left off exactly Oliver is presumed dead that will crush and alter the characters and story (as it should, if it didn't that'd be frankly ridiculous) . Also this season's arc is identity and it has built toward the idea that Oliver can be more than just the hood (his I don't wanna die here bit, the Barry moment, telling Felicity he loves her and spending time with Thea and his friends) it's all leading to the compromise at the end of the season. Look, I'm sorry don't wanna say this but a lot of your problems just seem really nitpicky and mad that Oliver isn't in the spotlight (even through he hasn't at times before) and you haven't even seen the next few episodes yet I just feel you're really overreacting (on the next three ones) based on preformed notions rather than giving it a shot. Honestly I'm getting really tired of arguing over this.

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  54. GraydonJanuary 7, 2015 at 4:10 AM

    He's not under their thrall (he's not with the league if Barrowman or the 3x10 promo is to be believed, well that and a picture from 3x12 shows him in costume with Arsenal). That and Ra's al Ghul would never do that (it would void his trial by combat and Ra's would never go back on such an agreement).

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  55. lsbloomJanuary 7, 2015 at 4:27 AM

    Well honestly, your "arguing" is pretty frustrating for me, too. Especially, as you aren't actually listening to what I'm saying. Maybe a list will help clarify. Maybe you are just determined to not understand what I am saying. Maybe I'm not being clear enough. IDK.

    A) No one is saying Oliver isn't a hero. I clarified my comment that you were confused by in my distinction between Oliver's character arc from S2 "hero arc" from his arc in S3 "identity arc"
    B/C) Yes, the theme of Oliver moving towards the light has been addressed in several instances over the first 9 episodes. IMO it was UNDERMINED when he was killed. For all intents and purposed he did just "die down there."
    D/E) You are right, I have no idea if or how the Lazarus pits will be used--which is why I used the word IF twice. But I know that dying will have an effect on Oliver, and it moving him in a positive direction towards balance and light is nonsensical.
    F) Thea knows that Merlyn is a mass murderer, who killed her father, theorized her mother, destroyed the glades, and killed Tommy. She has sided with him over Oliver's insistence that she cut ties more than once, including in ep 9 with "Don't ask me to choose." She has a clear idea of what Merlyn has done. And that allegiance has led to her helping him. And that allegiance led to Oliver's death to protect her from her bad decision-making, which IMO was a pretty big impact on Oliver's story. And that isn't reaching.
    G) I am annoyed that show has opened up so many secondary stories that don't tie to a greater story, that they are exploring in a disjointed manner with inconsistent characterization, with characters that are terrible and not worth watching. As I said IN THE BEGINNING. I'm worried that we aren't getting anywhere on having a main plot as I've said like three times now.


    If you wanted to talk to me about there being a main plot arc, great. If you wanted to tell me how you think Oliver's death will progress his search for identity, great. If you think we haven't jumped around so much that all the characters have whiplash, sure let's talk examples. But all you are doing is lecturing me on either things I've already said or plot summaries. Which, thanks but no thanks. I mean at one point you frustratingly lectured me about a point I'd already made as though I'd never made it. Really?

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  56. lsbloomJanuary 7, 2015 at 4:32 AM

    They aren't actual theories. They are examples of ideas that are possible to highlight that the state of Oliver as a character at this point is a complete unknown. He's dead. We don't know anything about where they are going or how it will impact him.


    And PS. You have no idea what Ra's will do. We have little to no information about him whatsoever other than he tends to make no logical sense in his actions.

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  57. GraydonJanuary 7, 2015 at 5:11 AM

    I know that Ra's would never do that since it would make no sense as to his actions during the fight. The respect, the prayer, the duel all of that points to a man of honour who refuses to break his word. He would not do that. Not after all that. Oliver isn't Batman. He's not Ras intended heir. Actually his actions do make sense (albeit in a twisted way) Ra's views all of humanity as a cancer on the Earth and viewing Merlyn as the worst of them all for his betrayal and therefore removed the evil of man by threatening to kill Starling City citizens believing it would force Oliver to hand over Merlyn (who he thought killed Sara, honestly her death was an excuse to kill him), but that didn't happen. Of course however Oliver surviving will break this contract (since it was a duel to the death and if either party lives the debt is unpaid) and lead him to return for Merlyn. Again Oliver's death (as pointed out by spoilers anne teases) is meant at least for the moment to affect the team. Of course it'll impact his identity and self but for now it's meant to survive as a crucible for Team Arrow to deal with. Leading them and Oliver to rise and deal with the inevitable consequences.

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  58. GraydonJanuary 7, 2015 at 5:16 AM

    Again she didn't help him willing. You can't say that if she's not acting within her own volition. He died that doesn't undermine character development at all, all it does is reaffirm he's a hero and refuses to give up his family and friends (which is Oliver's light) G) Okay I guess the main plot was Sara's death and the fallout which will lead into the conflict with Ra's that will be the main plot. We're getting there.

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  59. lsbloomJanuary 7, 2015 at 5:53 AM

    She went with him willingly. She lied to Oliver about knowing him, knowing he was alive, him training her, him bankrolling her taking back the club. She sided with him and willingly took his money. She willingly fought the Arrow to protect him "stay away from my father." The only thing she didn't willingly do was kill Sara. But all of her loyalty to Merlyn was willing and of her own volition. Her choosing him over Oliver was with her eyes open and her blood stream clear of mind control weeds. Oliver was justifiably concerned about coming between Thea and Malcolm--in the magician and again in the climb.


    Sacrificing his life as the Arrow is the opposite of finding a way for life and light as Oliver Queen. Yes, it was a noble sacrifice, but as far as furthering his identity search, it wasn't taking him to the light, if anything it was saying the only true light he could find was to die for the ones he loves (especially with the sun rising behind him as he flashes on his loves as he dies). That is not the hopeful duality we were looking for in the road map provided in the Calm. It was sad and poignant. But it was the antithesis of where we are hoping Oliver ends up, which is finding a way to fight for life outside of vigilantism, standing as a hero who inspires Starling City, not sacrifices his life for a city who will never know what he did (or for a sister who doesn't know who he is). But that is just my read. It was a stunning image and point, but it sent Oliver in the opposite direction from where he was supposed to be heading. We went from the fist-pumping yes, way to walk away from the cliche, when Sara died and Felicity/Diggle/himself convinced Oliver to not take it as evidence he should crawl further away from human connections but rather that he wanted more out of life than to die fighting Arrow's fight, to the totally typical, there's no way out except a noble death. And my heart sank. I want us back on track and it doesn't look to be happening anytime soon.

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  60. lsbloomJanuary 7, 2015 at 5:57 AM

    You are basing your opinion about Ra's and his actions on comics. This is not the comics.

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  61. miracle2012January 7, 2015 at 7:30 AM

    That's why I wrote "nearly die" and "healed by someone". I don't want a Lazarus Pit. At least not the "waking up the dead" kind. Though I know there's little to no chance that he's alive after the fall. If they have to bring in Lazarus Pits, please, just as a healing device like Oliver's herbs from Lian Yu, but more powerful. (Someone mentioned that the liquid of the Lazarus Pits may be the main ingredient of Mirakuru, which would explain the side effects.) If I'm right and they made him "climb" and "fall" so that he can "rise" again I hope they don't mess it up. For now, I can live with what they showed us.

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  62. lsbloomJanuary 7, 2015 at 8:35 AM

    :-) that's why I said "or whatever." Putting however he rises again against his island crucible seems like it would be quick fix for me if only because they don't have years over which to tell it.

    Hope it turns out how you want it to.

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  63. GraydonJanuary 9, 2015 at 12:28 AM

    No I'm basing them on all his actions and thoughts regarding Sara, Oliver and during the duel.

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  64. GraydonJanuary 9, 2015 at 12:42 AM

    That's still a massive stretch considering her loyalty is basically based off the notion that Merlyn isn't lying to her. She's an unwitting pawn at best and is only with him because he was honest and has no idea that Oliver's the Arrow or what Malcolm did to her. But Oliver's act proves again he's a hero. He sacrificed himself to save the city and those he loves- not for the glory of being a hero- but solely to protect those he loved. Being a hero isn't dependent on people knowing you're one. It's doing the right thing and giving yourself for others and to do what's right and that is what Oliver did. Again you're really presupposing where the story is going. If you're upset with it so far, okay fair that's your opinion. But I feel you should wait until Oliver returns and the second half kicks off and we confront the idea of Oliver's identity that you make such a judgement. It's gonna take some time to get there (he's not even Green Arrow yet) though I'd argue given he's officially now endorsed by the police that he must be inspiring to some level (but he puts arrows into people so even if he becomes more ligh-hearted he'll never inspire the way Barry will-dudes got super speed).

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  65. GraydonJanuary 9, 2015 at 12:46 AM

    And he defeated and stopped Deathstroke and his army (which the public knows about according to The Calm- so they must view him as some kind of hero.)

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  66. lsbloomJanuary 9, 2015 at 3:09 AM

    Did you not watch the Flash crossover and the entire discussion on how Arrow doesn't inspire? Plus, even if some do view him as a hero, they aren't going to know anything about the fight with Ra's.

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  67. lsbloomJanuary 9, 2015 at 3:14 AM

    Her loyalty is based off of reactionary stupidity in that Roy and Moira and Oliver lied to her and she hasn't figured out that mass-murdering, threatening, killer dad would (and did) as well--although why anyone with two brain cells to fire off would think he'd do anything else is just dumb. So, while she was completely witting, she was a pawn.


    Look, we can't say for sure where things are going. I know where I stand. And I know waiting for 3-6 episodes to find out is really going to piss me off. If I'm wrong, I say so. But I'm not going to say it based on the evidence I have at hand.

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  68. GraydonJanuary 9, 2015 at 4:32 PM

    I know. My point is that's not what makes him a hero. I even brought up that he doesn't inspire do to his tendencies to put arrows in people. But they do know and regard him as some kind of hero if they cops officially endorsed him (without any visible protest) as the city's protector. He's basically like how Gotham views Batman.

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  69. GraydonJanuary 9, 2015 at 4:43 PM

    That's not really fair to Thea, critiquing it as overly emotional and not the best reaction and a bad idea okay yeah that's a really fair argument (and one I can on some level get behind), but Malcolm did never give her any indication of lying to her and it's not like she admittedly trusted him. She shot him, and took moths to bond with him. And to be far, despite how awful he is and what she knew, he's her dad her last parent left, the kind of emotional crap that would give you would make anyone want some kind of connection. But when she finds out Merlyn will not be happy. And hopefully she'll become Speedy or Arrowette (given she's a composite of Roy and Mia Dearden and her middle name is Dearden). The story will continue to unfold to some extent without Oliver in Starling. Through Laurel, Diggle, Roy, Felicity, Merlyn and Thea. Yeah it will be

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