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Arrow - Episode 3.11 - Midnight City - Producer's Preview

Jan 23, 2015

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155 comments:

  1. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:08 PM

    I love how Team Arrow is written in the same douchy degrading way the fandom treats Laurel.


    Yeah Roy, talk down to her like that because you had so much training in season 2 before getting Mirakuru'd -,-

    ReplyDelete
  2. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:09 PM

    Looks awesome. Love the Roy and Diggle bit. Really looking forward to Laurel going from amateur vigilante who gets her butt kicked, to badass who can compete with Oliver, to (if they go with the comics) a better fighter than Oliver and most heroes. However long it takes.

    ReplyDelete
  3. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:10 PM

    Mac Roy has a point. He was an accomplished street fighter who could take thugs even in season one reasonably well. Then he was trained by arguably the third most badass character in the show for months. Laurel doesn't have any real combat experience Roy does have that. It's not douchey. It's an realistic point.

    ReplyDelete
  4. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:12 PM

    As could Laurel after kicking the butt of these club bodyguards while Tommy and Oliver struggled with them


    For all the training he's had little to nothing was shown and I'd buy it with Laurel the same way I'd do it with Roy but the way they pretty much voice the fandoms consensus ("You're not your sister" tell me that this isn't what most of the fandom has been saying for months) of Laurel "sucking"

    ReplyDelete
  5. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:17 PM

    love how they show her struggling with the staff. However Laurel was never a terrible fighter and could hold her own against others.

    Still not cool with Diggle and Roy voicing the fan consensus. Sounds like the writers bending their butt towards the fans direction to appease their bitching against the most hated Arrow character

    ReplyDelete
  6. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:18 PM

    This looks great. I liked the snippets of action scenes shown here. Her stubbornness to never back off will be her strength. I hope the dialogues are done well in this episode.

    ReplyDelete
  7. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:21 PM

    I'm not saying that. But it's one thing to get the drop on one guy or eat up bouncers and anthother to beat up hardened criminals who know you're there and several all around you. They were right. I like Laurel, but it's incredibly dangerous what she's doing. And she doesn't have the training, experience or support the others do.

    ReplyDelete
  8. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:22 PM

    But she's not her sister Mac. She's not trained by the league. She's an inexperienced lawyer with self-defence and some boxing training. Stop letting your dislike for the Arrow fandom colour your view of the character's dialogue.

    ReplyDelete
  9. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:23 PM

    She`s going up against all odds, what I like about the character.

    Also I'm not totally disagreeing with Team Arrow here. I'm pissed at the word-by-word copying of lines people have been saying on twitter,imdb and facebook ever since the Black Canary stills were released.


    Diggle I can respect


    Roy, the dude that had to jumpstart his fighting-street cred with Mirakuru does not

    ReplyDelete
  10. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:24 PM

    I treat these lines like the shows overall presence makes them appear to me. IMO they sound like the classic way of keeping a violent fandom at bay that I've seen in other fandoms as well.

    Little lines to keep fans happy

    ReplyDelete
  11. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:24 PM

    Roy and Diggle has never seen her in action before. On the other hand Diggle has helped Oliver save Laurel several times in the past 2 years.

    That being said I agree they are purposefully giving these dialogues so that later by next episode or this episode end they will accept that Laurel has value in the streets it will have more effect on the audience. Like it or not Team Arrow's approval matters to majority of audience.

    ReplyDelete
  12. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:24 PM

    Um Roy has taken Argus soldiers, criminals and has held his own against thugs since season on one. Plus he knows what it's like to take a beating. He knows what he's talking about.

    ReplyDelete
  13. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:25 PM

    I do hope that they don't drop her arc mid-way and resolve way too quick like they did it last year

    ReplyDelete
  14. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:26 PM

    Season 1-2 he got continouslly beaten by thugs and even had Thea save his a** once ;P
    Ever since season 3 it's like his Mirakuru powers never left, wich I call a writing ploy to warrant his presence

    ReplyDelete
  15. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:26 PM

    So what other line would you have Roy and Diggle tell her?

    ReplyDelete
  16. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:27 PM

    it's not Team Arrows acceptance that matters, it's the fans acceptance. And that's something I doubt the character will ever have.

    ReplyDelete
  17. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:28 PM

    He saved Thea in season one. Beat Argus soldiers in three using only marital arts and a macgiver bow, and many criminals and has had serious training from Oliver. He's earned his place Mac.

    ReplyDelete
  18. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:28 PM

    "Laurel, the streets cost your sisters life. You don't want to end like her"
    "Laurel, you have seen what these streets do to people, you don't deserve such cruelty"


    Putting in more genuine concern for her wellbeing than pulling a "hoe, U not as strong as yo sistah"

    ReplyDelete
  19. Helen SJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:29 PM

    Preach it!!!! It's laughable coming from Roy. Laurel is being trained by Ted Grant!!! And has had training before that! If they want to go out there they shouldn't stop anyone else since its Laurel's choice

    ReplyDelete
  20. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:29 PM

    Well it's Mac so Roy would say nothing and Diggle would pay her as being better than Sara.

    ReplyDelete
  21. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:29 PM

    I don't count post-Mirakuru Roy in that list. Season 1 Roy was inexperienced as hell

    ReplyDelete
  22. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:30 PM

    Okay. Oliver > Ted Grant. And Roy has actual combat experience and can take military soldiers. But sure why not.

    ReplyDelete
  23. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:30 PM

    eh, no. Why do you present me like the ultimate opinionated a**hole here dude? You keep pushing Roy onto a pedestreal while he hasn't really done much to prove his worth either but being injected with Mirakuru.


    People bought Roy being strong enough but have issues with Thea and Laurel. I call double standard here

    ReplyDelete
  24. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:31 PM

    I think after canaries they are going to stick Laurel with Nyssa and Ted Grant if he will be there as spoilers suggest. And I think that is good. Sometimes when there is fandom disapproval it will take time to change the opinion. I think by the season's most of the audience like me will be a convert as long as they don't make the story melodramatic. In short lots of beating less drama especially those that involves Oliver.

    ReplyDelete
  25. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:31 PM

    Military soldiers in season 3, the season that ignores his pre-existing strength and treats him as if he still had Mirakuru powers

    ReplyDelete
  26. arrowshieldfanJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:33 PM

    we get a producer preview but no comic preview yet!

    ReplyDelete
  27. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:33 PM

    Having or as much as I don't like the term with reference to Laurel "earning" Team Arrow's approval with her resolve will in turn help in gaining the approval of lot of fans.

    ReplyDelete
  28. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:36 PM

    Just in retrospect: Roy had trouble taking out street thugs in season 1 and also ended up in hospital in season 2. Up until that he was still on Laurels level. Then he got injected with Mirakuru, cut forward to now and he's all of a sudden treated as if he still had Mirakuru powers.


    It's a writing ploy, they showed him pulling bigger stunts with the Mirakuru so the transition was easier to buy.


    They overlooked a huge part in his training and Laurel/Thea getting flack for doing the EXACT some thing Roy did now is kind of pissing me off ROYally

    ReplyDelete
  29. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:36 PM

    Depends on what happened before this particular scene. Did she come close to dying? Did her intervention caused a failure in the mission? It all depends on the context. Also one more person dying is the last thing they all need. So tempers do fly in such conditions.

    ReplyDelete
  30. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:37 PM

    and yet these lines are word by word copies of the fandoms constant twitter rampages.


    Come on ODA, try to tell me that this wasn't put in there deliberately to appease them (wich is all I'm saying....also Roy not really having a point here)

    ReplyDelete
  31. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:38 PM

    Bad pun. And really dude you're problems with Roy this season fighting wise are bs.

    ReplyDelete
  32. tsukikomewJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:39 PM

    Marc Guggenheim said there isn't much if any left with Ted Grant because the actor is doing another show. They don't have the ability to finish out that story so Laurel will have to seek mentorship elsewhere.

    ReplyDelete
  33. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:40 PM

    Are they? Really?
    I raised my points. Roy went from street thug level to Mirakuru soldier to sidekick.
    We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. But, to me, Roy is the last person that gets to say that.


    Sara, Oliver, Diggle...hell even Malcolm would get to say that after having had a extensive ammount of training in their past. Roy however is the last person that gets to say something like that

    ReplyDelete
  34. Bruce_FJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:40 PM

    The people on Team Arrow have a point about Laurel's inexperience but the way they're talking to her about it is horrible. Rather than expressing genuine concern for their friend they're just being pissy and condescending.

    ReplyDelete
  35. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:40 PM

    Okay I have no problem with Thea. Laurel's I don't agree with most of the complaints but they have a point, Laurel doesn't have any actual combat experience in life or death. Self-defence training and boxing/ marital arts training from Ted are quite good (especially since he was a vigilante). But Roy unlike Laurel has been in real fights, and has trained with Oliver non-stop for months and has been a vigilante for months. You can't compare their situations. And Thea well Malcolm is Malcolm and was brutal in training her. I agree Laurel gets too much shit from fans, but Roy and Diggle have a point. Because you're shitting on Roy for no reason and mad that he writers are giving very in character reactions from Dig and Roy (yes they're not the sugar coating sort never have been.)

    ReplyDelete
  36. SparkyJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:41 PM

    The actor started filming his show in September. They have a 10 episode season. I would think he could be free soon for appearances on Arrow.

    ReplyDelete
  37. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:41 PM

    He was trained to be a vigilante and has served as a vigilante. He knows what it's like. Laurel doesn't. For God's sake Mac.

    ReplyDelete
  38. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:42 PM

    Still doesn't change the fact that he had experience in fighting and is an actual vigilante. Laurel doesn't have any of that.

    ReplyDelete
  39. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:43 PM

    Could be. But imo these dialogues fit here because suddenly she decided to put her sister's costume and go out on the streets to beat people up. Also you are not your sister is a recurring dialogue this season towards Laurel. Already Oliver, Quentin and Nyssa has said this to her. And according to MG before the season started that is Laurel's journey. Am I Laurel or am I my sister?

    ReplyDelete
  40. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:43 PM

    Laurel has been beaten up once, actually faced some Mirakuru soldiers and did get a bunch of solid beatings. She can handle the pressure.


    I agree that she doesen't have the training, this coming from Roy however is my issue here.

    I have nothing against Roy, I enjoy the stunts he pulls but I'm at least honest enough to admit that his power upgrade since the Mirakuru arc was just complete plot convenience to get him to a point he's actually usefull.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Bruce_FJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:45 PM

    I found that a bit funny too. Before Roy hitched his wagon to Team Arrow, the only things he was good at were stealing stuff and taking a punch.

    ReplyDelete
  42. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:45 PM

    Training and serving as a vigilante for five months at least makes him worthy. Yeah it's called a time jump. It's done so we could have Arsenal. Doesn't make Roy any less qualified (particularly since we've seen him fight well in three).

    ReplyDelete
  43. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:45 PM

    So?

    Because Laurel is doing the EXACT same Roy did in season 1/2 he gets to shit on her because he now gained a little experience?


    It's like a second grader degrading a freshman

    ReplyDelete
  44. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:46 PM

    Hey apparently he's Bruce Lee now

    ReplyDelete
  45. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:47 PM

    See the problem with Roy is they might have not shown us his training much and they have not given us any background history but it is implied that he has been a street rat and was a member of a gang before meeting Thea. So it is canon that Roy had some real life fighting experience before his introduction. That puts him above Laurel in the totem pole.

    ReplyDelete
  46. MurderMondaysJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:47 PM

    What is with all the Laurel apologists making crap up? She did not beat up bodyguards in S1. I see this everywhere from you people. She sucker punched the club owner in the kidneys, from behind, and then asked if he was going to sic his goons on her(the daughter of a cop).


    Laurel had minimal self-defense training. Enough of this revisionist history crap.

    ReplyDelete
  47. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:47 PM

    Inexperienced -> Mirakuru -> magically capable of sh*t


    I called bullsh*t back then but can accept this. However, such a character (one that requires a freaking time-jump to explain his purpose and abilities) does not get to degrade on that does the exact same

    ReplyDelete
  48. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:47 PM

    Jesus. This isn't some schoolyard bullying. This is fighting crime. A little he can take soldiers working for Waller, That's not a little.

    ReplyDelete
  49. ForouzanJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:48 PM

    For the God sakes don't hate Laurel this time.
    at least give time to the Show and her to show more of themselves in the new part of her character.


    if she just says Hi all the fans begin to complain about it like it's the bad line ever, could she die and blah, blah, blah.
    and don't get me wrong i'm an Olicity fan.

    ReplyDelete
  50. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:48 PM

    That and the whole beating Argus soldiers and actually being a vigilante for a while.

    ReplyDelete
  51. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:49 PM

    He's not degrading her, he's actually making sense.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Bruce_FJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:50 PM

    Seeing Roy trying to step up this week reminded me of when an adult puts their hand on the shoulder of a little boy and tells them "you're the man of the house now, son." Sorry. I just don't buy it that easily.

    ReplyDelete
  53. arrowshieldfanJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:50 PM

    if you think Diggle and Roy comment is wrong......wait till Oliver return.......he will be just as pissed

    ReplyDelete
  54. tsukikomewJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:50 PM

    Per MG's tumblr:

    queensmoakiin asked:

    I just wondering that... is there any chance to romance for Laurel half of the season with Ted Grant? Or another guy?

    That was the plan, but then the actor who plays Ted got cast on another show…

    Later he replied:

    phoenixashes003 asked:

    Please answer this! Do you plan on just recasting Wild Cat then? If not, how is Laurel going to be trained??

    Oh, we’ve got a plan…

    ReplyDelete
  55. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:50 PM

    "Show don't tell"


    and all the explaination we're given on Roy is being "told" that he evolved.


    Really...it's not good writing and coming from the last character that should get that line

    ReplyDelete
  56. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:51 PM

    But his will be more about her well-being.

    ReplyDelete
  57. BrianJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:51 PM

    I think Roy can be that way since he's young but Diggle should deal with it better.

    ReplyDelete
  58. tsukikomewJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:51 PM

    I think it's a timeline thing. Roy has grown up on the streets and at least has, I think, a better understanding of what is out there. On top of that he trained with Oliver under Mirakuru for a bit before training for a solid 8 months (per episode 10) after Slade Wilson. He's had 8 months of field experience that can at least account for his ability. Laurel (per comics and the show) has taken some self defense classes and some boxing classes. We've never actually seen Ted Grant train her in anything other than boxing. Other than that she hasn't actually faced a criminal willing to kill her outright. A man in a boxing ring or a mentor is typically not going to do that. I think the concern is realistic and the experience level is realistic. That is not to say I do not think she could be awesome in the field.


    We didn't really get to see Roy in the field as he was getting trained because he had the mirakuru or it happened during the summer hiatus. For all we know he was running around out there for months missing punches and falling and getting stabbed. Didn't he get shot in the comics? I think we're supposed to believe Roy and John and Oliver and Sara knew the world they were entering and made those decisions. I think they recognized the danger. Laurel is still, I think, unaware of exactly what it means to go out there every night and fight.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Bruce_FJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:51 PM

    You do have a point there. I shouldn't expect so much of Roy.

    ReplyDelete
  60. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:51 PM

    That's unfortunate. I had hoped at least he will be there for more episodes till this season end. Then they can write him out and bring someone else to train Laurel. MG said they are considering Lady Shiva along with some other options.

    ReplyDelete
  61. MurderMondaysJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:51 PM

    The writers are doing this all wrong. By having her in opposition to a fan favorite like Diggle people are not going to like her. And just having Digg say, "Guess I was wrong!" one episode later is not going to fix it.

    ReplyDelete
  62. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:51 PM

    I can live with it, however I'm having an issue with that character getting to sh*ttalk a character that goes through the exact same proccess...hell even a better one because with Laurel we're actually seeing the evolution

    ReplyDelete
  63. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:52 PM

    Diggle, Oliver...okay


    Roy is the last one that gets to be pissed

    ReplyDelete
  64. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:53 PM

    "Do as I say not as I do" is his mantra here because really....he did the exact same

    ReplyDelete
  65. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:53 PM

    But that just means romance is out now since the actor cannot recur for long time. May be he will be a presence in Laurel's story rest of the season without the romance and then he will be written out. It's like the character has bad luck.

    ReplyDelete
  66. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:54 PM

    Not, this is a television show that just decided that it gets to decide wich character is considered "worthy" and wich isn't while having had faulty writing for both characters.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Bruce_FJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:54 PM

    And Laurel had the good sense to find someone to train her after her first failed attempt at vigilantism rather than just go out into the street with a hoodie and take beatings repeatedly.

    ReplyDelete
  68. tsukikomewJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:55 PM

    I know he just confirmed they've been having serious discussions about introducing "Cheshire" for Roy's storyline.

    ReplyDelete
  69. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:55 PM

    "But he is a vigilante"


    NOW, not back then. And even if...his evolution has been lackluster as hell and left out vital parts. It's not about Roy, the person saying this. But Roy, the completely fu***ed up character they decided to jumpstart to a point he is usefull saying this.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Helen SJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:55 PM

    Ted Grant is a prized fighter who has been doing this all his life. Longer than Oliver. He nearly beat the crap out of Oliver who needed the arrow glove in order to defeat him.

    Secondly Laurel is being trained by him to be a vigilante. That means more than just boxing

    Now Roy had a week of training, slipped into a coma then was able to fight in the season finale. Yeah he can have himself a seat

    ReplyDelete
  71. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:55 PM

    Hey, I guess Roy gets to say this stuff though. What do I know? I'm just...Mac

    ReplyDelete
  72. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:56 PM

    Depends on how much trouble was she in before this scene. If she jumped out of the window on to a helicopter as per the spoilers then they would be freaked. Did she come close to dying? Did she put them in danger? Context matters. They just lost Oliver after all. I saw concern in those dialogues.

    ReplyDelete
  73. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:56 PM

    Not really. Even if you disregard Roy's experience and training, it's still a valid point. Any character should say what he said.

    ReplyDelete
  74. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:57 PM

    Oh that's good. But too many recurring characters already in this show.

    ReplyDelete
  75. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:57 PM

    Yes and Laurel's drug arc was so much better and good use of screen time.

    ReplyDelete
  76. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 7:58 PM

    Sure it's a valid point, however we're talking about character achetypes.

    You're seeing this within the shows context, where it does make sense
    I'm talking about this from a writers perspective, one where I have half-assed Roys evolution and am completely ignoring my faulty work to let that character degrade another one


    We're not talking within the shows universe but outside of it, from the writers view.

    ReplyDelete
  77. tsukikomewJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:00 PM

    What I can see has JR Ramirez slated for Episode 12 but I've seen things be wrong before. I was under the impression that might be his last appearance.

    ReplyDelete
  78. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:00 PM

    It wasn't, I'm the first one to say that her arc was ended aprubtly without any resolution. But that doesen't really have anything to do with this subject.


    We didn't see Roy train. We were told that he got better than ever off-screen. Wich is faulty writing, limiting his character...or better the writer, to certain dialogue options without disregarding the writers past faults.


    Roy is not the character that can say this because he was written just as faulty as she was. It reeks of using him as a vessel to transport a message.

    ReplyDelete
  79. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:02 PM

    Was romance ever on the table?

    ReplyDelete
  80. OreJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:03 PM

    that doesn't mean anything though. The thing is Roy has training and approval from Oliver. As far as he knows Laurel doesn't. It makes sense. Anyway everyone knows their disapproval is just so Laurel can prove him wrong AND Roy is the first one to accept her so I don't know why you are complaining about his so much.

    ReplyDelete
  81. BrianJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:03 PM

    Even Oliver did some crazy stuff that he wasn't ready for and got hurt. Like when he tried to save Shado and Slade tried to stop him because it was too dangerous. Only reason Laurel does what she does now is because she feels it has to be done. I don't what will happen in later episodes after Oliver is back. One of two things could happen. She continues doing BC stuff or Nyssa offers to train her. She could easily have 5 months or more better training.

    ReplyDelete
  82. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:04 PM

    But they have always told and never shown what is new here. The point is Roy grew up in rough circumstances facing these kinds of bad guys and surviving in these "horrible" conditions. This is not shown but it is canon. Where as Laurel even with her self defense and boxing has lived a sheltered life in the eyes of Roy and Diggle. They are worried about her. It is said due to concern.

    ReplyDelete
  83. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:04 PM

    Doesn't matter if you view Roy's journey as half-assed or not (it's subjective and talking about character archetypes is irrelevant here it has literally nothing to do with Roy's line or this scene). It's not whose worthy Mac. It's whose the one who has gone through this crap. Who knows what it's like. Roy does. Not Laurel. It's not because of the fandom or some preference you cling to you. It's the fact that because of their character histories and actions, Roy unlike Laurel knows more about this stuff. It doesn't make him more worthy it makes him more learned in the matter.

    ReplyDelete
  84. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:06 PM

    They were planning it and JRR became unavailable.

    ReplyDelete
  85. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:06 PM

    Of course this is the purpose for that line, however it's coming from the wrong character to say this.

    If I told the audience that Oliver had evolution without delivering it, it would be weird as well to claim that the character has any sort of experience because the audience simply has no reason to believe the characters statements being valid.


    To me this sounds like a writer remembering the shoehorning of Roys abilities and trying to make others forget about it by making him talk a big game

    ReplyDelete
  86. Kristi HungerfordJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:06 PM

    Never read the comics about black canary but since smallville ive loved the character im lookin forward to seein her become the black canary and to watch as laurels character begins to change but as for her bein a badass she always was she proved that season 1 to me

    ReplyDelete
  87. BrianJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:08 PM

    Laurel's response though is so predictable. "You think I don't know that " s exactly what I thought she would say.

    ReplyDelete
  88. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:08 PM

    Okay. We saw him train a bit in season two and in three and have seen him fight. Even then we didn't see Diggle train either when he was established as badass. Barely saw Laurel train (about as much as Roy). Or Sara. Or Malcolm. Or Maseo. Yet you accept that. Dude your cherry picking. You accept those characters because we've seen fights of skill from them and little training, yet we've seen the same of Roy and you say he can't say shit.

    ReplyDelete
  89. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:09 PM

    Oh I hope not unless they will bring some one else immediately.

    ReplyDelete
  90. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:09 PM

    I'd rather have a "Boy, you did the same sh*t back when, so don't scold me and treat others like you wanted to be treated, step down from your big horse" line


    because frankly this just sounds like Roy trying to appear badass

    ReplyDelete
  91. Spindae2January 23, 2015 at 8:11 PM

    I mean Roy's concern is that Laurel doesn't have in herself to do what needs to be done. Hurt the bad guys, cause she is a too good person.
    She isn't used to the cruelty and never had to choose to do the bad thing.
    Training wise I believe she is more or less on par with him. He was overpowered by Cupid howbstrong can he be.u I mean the boy got a bunch of pointy things with him so it makes him dangerous.

    Honestly I have to say I likebshe gets a bit smacked on her nose, both Roy and Thea would benefit from some smacks on the nose

    ReplyDelete
  92. BrianJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:12 PM

    That one is a bad example. The best one is in the Cyrus Vanch episode when she has to take on a bunch of guys before Vanch knocks her out.

    ReplyDelete
  93. maclivesJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:14 PM

    No, with Diggle/Sara/Malcolm we never saw a huge skill-gap


    Roy jumped from inexperience to superhero in about the blink of an eye. Right after the Mirakuru plot he took out some Mirakuru soldiers....and that was before the timejump.


    Roy simply was handled badly writing wise and is the last character that gets to talk down to another like that for doing the exact same stuff he did. It's agains his own character evolution (for whatever little character there is)


    I'm not even a Roy hater, I like the guy (hate Coltons performance and joke about it but he's a lovable guy) however the way he's written in this scene is against his entire character.


    And while I see that you're a big Roy fan I'm just trying to point out the opinionated fan-spirit reeking up through that line.


    I'll end this discussion here dude, not worth getting into a major fight

    ReplyDelete
  94. arrowshieldfanJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:17 PM

    if Laurel had the canary cry she would stand some chance against criminal carrying weapons instead of knives

    ReplyDelete
  95. BrianJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:22 PM

    Remember when Roy wanted to help Oliver before he knew who he was? Oliver was the same way with Roy. I think Oliver said he can't take a beating or something like that. The only reason they don't want Laurel doing anything is because of what happened to Sara. Ted Grant though sees potential in her and there's a hint that Nyssa does too.

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  96. Helen SJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:23 PM

    We have been TOLD she is being trained in more than just boxing. And Roy was getting his ass handed to him in s1 and s2. So he was far from strong. His flips can do only so much

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  97. GraydonJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:23 PM

    I'm actually not a big Roy fan (I like him this season a lot, was ambivalent in the last two though). I was just trying to point out why Roy had a point. But yeah let's just end it before it gets ugly.

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  98. tsukikomewJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:33 PM

    Hey I like Laurel. I'm just saying we're being told she got training. In what exactly? Was she shot at, stabbed, thrown off buildings, attacked by a group of street thugs? Has she had weapons training? How long has she been training? After all there were a few months between Slade and Sara's murder. Laurel didn't train all those months so we're talking maybe 3-4 months around her job as an ADA. How many hours is she training? Plus doesn't Ted Grant have other clients? Has she even been in the field?


    I want her to kick ass out there. I want the Canary to rise again. I think it's just completely realistic for her to fall on her ass a few times. I think we're supposed to believe Roy fell on his a bit before getting to where he is today. He's still not perfect but he has time on his side. He's had a lot more training that has been much more concentrated. He, not only trained in the Foundry but he was in the field every night for at least 8 months.


    I just think that it is realistic Roy feels he's better prepared than her.

    ReplyDelete
  99. whofanJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:36 PM

    Frankly I agree with Mac. The writers are using the rest of team arrow as the audience surrogate. Fans have doubts about her abilities and she is going to have to prove her worth. But any doubt from the fandom is mostly a result of the writers' own weird development of the character. Laurel was badass in season 1 and she was later retcon in favor making Sara seem all the more powerful. Another problem is the treatment given to Ted Grant. The way the show makes it seem Ted was just a washed up boxer and not the badass fighter that aside from training Canary also trained Batman. It can be debated that Ted is an even better fighter than Oliver yet because the show is called Arrow Oliver ended up winning their fight.

    ReplyDelete
  100. MeatyStakesJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:43 PM

    I really think we just have to see how it plays in the episode, no reason to start speculating beyond the episode when we don't know what the arc of the episode is.


    I think it's warranted both Roy and Digg being wary about the whole deal, having just loosing Oliver, and Sara a couple months ago. IMO it's more important how the episode will end, It's not fair to write off Digg and Roy's attitude from a sneak peek, specially when they have a good reason already.

    ReplyDelete
  101. MeatyStakesJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:46 PM

    If it plays by the team accepting that Laurel has the right to fight and support her, it would be a good way to deal with the meta of it.

    ReplyDelete
  102. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:50 PM

    I agree. I was not blaming any character. It is a sudden change and a shock for Diggle and Roy to see Laurel in Sara's costume. It's quite natural they will be upset given they can hardly stand against Brick's men. Until we see the scene and the context in which these things are said we cannot conclude it is unfair. They are mostly worried than pissed I think.

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  103. MeatyStakesJanuary 23, 2015 at 8:56 PM

    Exactly :)

    ReplyDelete
  104. KokyJanuary 23, 2015 at 9:05 PM

    I'm assuming those 103 comments (soon to be 104) are not happy comments, right?

    ReplyDelete
  105. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 9:20 PM

    Not really. Its just mac and some Laurel fans took offence to the way Diggle and Roy confronted Laurel. Some are taking offense atvthe harsh words used.

    ReplyDelete
  106. KokyJanuary 23, 2015 at 9:24 PM

    Hmmmm I see.

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  107. KokyJanuary 23, 2015 at 9:55 PM

    OK I'm not taking sides here but what harsh words?

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  108. Kathleen KervinJanuary 23, 2015 at 10:09 PM

    Laurel didn't take down the club bodyguards, she grabbed Max the owner from behind when he wasn't looking. Oliver of course was only pretending to struggle to keep his skills secret.


    When we met Roy, he was a street fighter and kept Thea from getting mugged by a number of thugs. Beyond that, he's been training with Oliver for the past year.


    When Laurel went up against the girlfriend beater 3 months ago, she ended up in the hospital. Yeah, she's been taking boxing lessons since then but she's nowhere in the Team Arrow level.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Silvia BianchiJanuary 23, 2015 at 10:11 PM

    I really don't care about Laurel! She is still annoying like hell! In my opinion she ruins the show!

    ReplyDelete
  110. Kathleen KervinJanuary 23, 2015 at 10:11 PM

    He kept Thea from getting mugged in season 1 and he was fighting a bunch of guys in the scene where we first saw the Canary.

    And even if he wasn't a great fighter before, he's been working with Oliver for a year now, compared to Laurel's 3 months of boxing lessons.

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  111. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 10:12 PM

    Some people think Roy does not have the right to use that tone with Laurel as he himself did the same thing last season. Then discussion about Roy's experience and background while starting in comparison to Laurel's now happened. Also the words you are not Sara. I was saying that is the recurring theme this season. Am I Laurel or am I my sister?

    On other note did you see EBR's bathroom therapy part II? On cwfantalk. It was adorable.

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  112. Kathleen KervinJanuary 23, 2015 at 10:17 PM

    Guggenheim: "If you're a Laurel Lance-Black Canary fan, this episode is going to make you insanely happy?"

    And what about the rest of the audience? Anything good for the rest of the characters or just the hagiography?

    It will be fun to see Cristina Cox again.though.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Bruce_FJanuary 23, 2015 at 10:17 PM

    Even civilians fight off common thugs now and then. You see it in the papers all the time. Not exactly a point in his favor. When Canary first made her appearance, Roy was trying to take on multiple guys by himself and getting his ass kicked for his troubles. It's a good example of his decision making prowess back then. So, as I was getting at, Roy is hardly the one to be lecturing Laurel about this stuff.

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  114. KokyJanuary 23, 2015 at 10:24 PM

    I see, thanks for telling me I didn't feel like reading the comments.


    Yeah I saw it but I don't get it. Why was she crying? What happened last week?

    ReplyDelete
  115. Kathleen KervinJanuary 23, 2015 at 10:25 PM

    We don't know the lead-up to the scenes. They may have started out concerned and this is the last card.

    Oliver already told her that she would get hurt out there and that Sara wouldn't have wanted this for her but she ignored that and signed up for boxing lessons.

    ReplyDelete
  116. Kathleen KervinJanuary 23, 2015 at 10:27 PM

    She's got the mechanizedl sonic cry that Sara used. Works like the one in the comics.

    ReplyDelete
  117. NickJanuary 23, 2015 at 10:34 PM

    Eventually Colton Haynes said he will be the one to back her up while Oliver and Diggle won't.

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  118. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 10:34 PM

    That was recorded after the mid season finale by emily I think. She is giving us therapy on how to cope with Oliver's death but in the end poor Robin died.

    ReplyDelete
  119. KokyJanuary 23, 2015 at 10:37 PM

    Oh I get it now. I didn't see the first part so I was lost. It was cute.

    ReplyDelete
  120. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 10:39 PM

    It's a part of a half an hour long show. They might explain more in the whole show which will be released on 28th I think.

    ReplyDelete
  121. KokyJanuary 23, 2015 at 10:41 PM

    Is it only Emily?

    ReplyDelete
  122. NickJanuary 23, 2015 at 10:41 PM

    Well, that really show they weren't kidding with the whole "she won't conect some punches". I don't know what the problem is. The did just lost Oliver and here comes this civilian that wants to fight criminals. It's ok for Diggle especially to be pissed off. Roy i don't see him as being mad, but he always speaks the truth(he was trained by Oliver for a year now and he already knew how to "fight" when we met him).


    Guess what happens in that meeting with the SCPDm the DA Office and Ray/Felicity will prompt Team Arrow(Digg, Felicity and Roy) to come back, while Laurel will follow them.


    I mean, they're giving us what we wanted, right? We all said "Laurel does not have that much experience", they say "okay, she will have a hard time". Would be just hilarious(in a bad way) if people complain because now she weems weak... That would be hate for the sake of hating.


    I've seen this and i'm really optimistic!

    ReplyDelete
  123. ShannonJanuary 23, 2015 at 10:45 PM

    Hahahahahahahahaha I was too busy laughing. Get we get this woman on an island please???

    ReplyDelete
  124. O D AJanuary 23, 2015 at 10:46 PM

    If you go to the youtube page Smiletime you can see the complete 1st episode. It's a once in a month web series kind of thing. 1st episode had Flash's cgi people, 3 fan artists creating fan art live (which included lord mesa) then some discusion between fans who were connected through Internet and then Emily's segment where she answered some funny q&a in the bathtub. It was fun. Check it out. You will get an idea of the format.

    ReplyDelete
  125. ShannonJanuary 23, 2015 at 10:50 PM

    LOL right??? I'm looking for something else.

    ReplyDelete
  126. Kathleen KervinJanuary 23, 2015 at 11:14 PM

    Or maybe he's the right person since he knows from experience that you need a lot of training to do what Laurel wants to do.

    He wasn't fighting them off to save himself though, Roy was taking on multiple guys to save a girl who was about to be attacked by them. It's not just Laurel's lack of fight training that's a problem for me in this arc, but her lack of will to save people who need saving. Other than two episodes in season 1, she either didn't care about the little guy or she was prosecuting them. Every other person on Team Arrow has a history of trying to protect or defend those who can't defend themselves -- Oliver and the notebook, Roy keeping people from getting beat up in the Glades, Sara saying "no woman should suffer at the hands of men", Diggle signing on to protect Oliver and do the right thing, even Felicity with her hactivist past. Laurel is doing a 180, presumably because she wants to be her sister.

    ReplyDelete
  127. Kathleen KervinJanuary 23, 2015 at 11:15 PM

    There's the Mysteries of Laura on at the same time.
    It's a plot by Greg Berlanti.

    ReplyDelete
  128. KokyJanuary 23, 2015 at 11:28 PM

    I like Greg Berlanti's shows but nothing can replace Arrow in my heart. I'm sure there are other things going on in the episode, so they need to stop promoting the it like it's a 42 mins documentary titled "A Day in the Life of the Black Canary" show us the fans who are sticking with the show in Oliver's absence something to get excited about as well.

    ReplyDelete
  129. Bruce_FJanuary 23, 2015 at 11:38 PM

    And as much as Team Arrow might want to believe otherwise, that is Laurel's prerogative. No one is required to go through Team Arrow to rubber stamp their vigilante license.

    ReplyDelete
  130. Bruce_FJanuary 23, 2015 at 11:40 PM

    Motivation is the furthest thing from the issue here. No one is bringing that up onscreen. This is about ability and decision-making. Any talk about something like that coming from Roy will fall on deaf ears for good reason.

    ReplyDelete
  131. KokyJanuary 23, 2015 at 11:40 PM

    You know I only read Olicity fanfic :\ my birthday is so far away, I'll come up with something just give me some time lol


    Well there are other things but they are not promoting them (for some weird unknown reason). I'm enjoying the brick storyline, we will get a Felicity/Lance scene, we will see Felicity going back to the team, CER will get beaten up (muahahahahaha), the Hong Kong flashbacks are finally interesting and like you said we will see Oliver in present day (yaaaaay) I was so happy that we got to see him wake up in the episode, I didn't expect that and I didn't see the Tatsu thing coming at all. But are we sure that he was dead for four days? Maybe all the scenes where Maseo was dragging him happened after the fight and they just showed them in parts and the only scene that took place four days later was him waking up. By the way, Oliver is coming back in 3x12.

    ReplyDelete
  132. whofanJanuary 24, 2015 at 12:08 AM

    Would it be possible for her to develop the actual canary cry after the three parter. Maybe after some trauma brought on by her time on the streets. In a way the opposite to how she lost the canary cry in the comics.

    ReplyDelete
  133. ShannonJanuary 24, 2015 at 12:45 AM

    Hence the "sorry" As in i'm not writing an Olicity one. Lol You buy me a new laptop then we'll talk. Haha

    Idc for Brick right now. Which is ironic b/c i was really looking forward to him. The Felicity/Lance scene, I forgot about so thank you for that. I do miss their scenes, but if she brings up "I know where to find the canary" at all with him, that would have completely ruined it for me (for many reasons I explained yesterday with ODA). Don't care about Ray. Eh, guess the HK flashbacks will be good. Yes I'm positive he was dead for 4 Days. And i'll still say ep 13, as him coming back at the end of 12, does not count for me. I don't need to see him as some cliffhanger appearance, no thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  134. KokyJanuary 24, 2015 at 1:09 AM

    I know and hence me thinking of ways to get you to write one lol. How about a new charger (preferably one that doesn't hate me lol)?


    I thought that he held his own and I'm looking forward to seeing how are they going to explain why the bullets don't hurt him. You're welcome and I hope she doesn't say that too. I don't want her to get involved with this lie and I don't want Laurel to pretend to be Sara, I know I agree with Laurel about not telling Lance but making him think that Sara is alive and well and back in Starling fighting and ignoring her father is just cruel and would feel like they are making Lance look like a fool. Watching someone beat the cr** out of Ray is something I'm definitely looking forward to lol. The flashbacks weren't as boring as they usually are so I'm hoping. Why are you positive? Did I miss a spoiler about that? It won't be a cliffhanger appearance. There were photos of Stephen shooting an action scene with Roy for episode 12.

    ReplyDelete
  135. KokyJanuary 24, 2015 at 1:17 AM

    Marc just posted this on Tumblr

    "Hello marc, I was wondering, did Oliver really die and come back to life or was he just badly hurt? I know Maseo Told Oliver "I asked her to come here so she could bring you back to life" but i don't know if he meant it. Will we get an open answer to that on the next episode? or ever?

    Just very badly hurt. Maseo was speaking poetically."

    ReplyDelete
  136. AnnoDominiJanuary 24, 2015 at 1:21 AM

    You do realize that Ollie didn't want to show off any of his abilities, right? I mean, Thea once said that she doubt Ollie ever got into a fight or could defend himself. Ollie has an image to uphold to the people who don't know what he does at nights.

    ReplyDelete
  137. ShannonJanuary 24, 2015 at 2:54 AM

    That's a stupid question. And that's even MORE of a stupid answer. Don't believe that at all, don't believe it's true, and i rolled my eyes.

    ReplyDelete
  138. KokyJanuary 24, 2015 at 3:00 AM

    He did say in another post that Tatsu operated on Oliver and we will the instrument she used next episode. I know that he likes to troll a lot but in that case I'm choosing to believe him mainly because I don't want anyone to come back from the dead, even Oliver.

    ReplyDelete
  139. ShannonJanuary 24, 2015 at 3:11 AM

    Well you believe him and i'll choose not to. Not about this. And he does like to troll. I'm bothered that he didn't come back with the pit. However, just b/c he didn't doesn't mean the pit does not exist. Which i strongly believe it does. They're just waiting to show it.

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  140. KokyJanuary 24, 2015 at 3:16 AM

    I know that the pit exists on the show.They already showed it. They stated that Ra's was using it in 3x04. I just don't want them to use it to bring anyone back because it will cheapen all the previous deaths and the sacrifices Robert and Moira did for their children. That's my opinion anyway.

    ReplyDelete
  141. ShannonJanuary 24, 2015 at 3:19 AM

    It won't happen. I need a new one altogether. Unfortunately. It's just sitting there collecting dust. sighhh.

    "Watching someone beat the crap out of Ray is something i'm looking forward to." hahaha that's funny. And you can say "crap" it's not a curse, you're not going to hell, i promise. smh. poor thing.

    I stopped reading after you said "there were photos" (sorry)....as i did not ask for confirmation on episode 12 or 13, i would consider that spoilery, and therefore stick to my theory, (or belief rather) so i can be shocked when he turns up.

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  142. KokyJanuary 24, 2015 at 3:28 AM

    OK then. Photos? What photos? There were no photos lol


    You think I don't curse because I'm afraid of going to hell?? Like I'm dying to use the words but stopping myself out of fear? lol no it's a personal choice. I don't like using bad words, it's just not me. I mean come on I censor the word a** you really think I'm going to say cr**? Are you new here? lol

    ReplyDelete
  143. ShannonJanuary 24, 2015 at 4:16 AM

    Hahahaha cute. "there were not photos" lol

    Censoring ass i can understand. Crap i do not. 4 yr olds use that word. LOL sooo soft you are. It's adorable.

    ReplyDelete
  144. ShannonJanuary 24, 2015 at 4:18 AM

    Idt they would do that. Not at all. I wouldn't like that either. (this isn't supernatural) But i still want to see the Pit. hahaha. I'll always want to see the pit. (it's the comic book fan inside me). = )

    ReplyDelete
  145. KokyJanuary 24, 2015 at 4:32 AM

    If they do then they are very very naughty and need a time out hahahahahahahaha sorry couldn't get through that one with a straight face lol believe me I'm not as cute and cuddly as you think.

    ReplyDelete
  146. KokyJanuary 24, 2015 at 4:36 AM

    I understand that. Well Ra's uses it. He said the last time someone challenged him to a duel was 67 years ago and we kind of saw him use it in 3x04, does that work for you?

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  147. ivanJanuary 24, 2015 at 4:52 AM

    who are the first two? LOL and yeah good points on Roy

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  148. ShannonJanuary 24, 2015 at 5:12 AM

    Yeah i know he did. And nope it doesn't. That's not enough at all.

    ReplyDelete
  149. ShannonJanuary 24, 2015 at 5:14 AM

    sureeee. Sigh...alrighty, i gotta go take a break. Be back in an hour.

    ReplyDelete
  150. lsbloomJanuary 24, 2015 at 7:45 AM

    Unlike anything since Al Capone? What is relevance? I mean, has he done more damage than the mirakuru soldiers? Is this Chicago all of a sudden? How does that reference apply? Why is the writing so terrible.


    I'm not fond of Laurel somehow dodging bullets fired from about 3-5 feet away. That is pathetic. I have a feeling this "learning curve" is going to remind me distinctly of why I quit watching Covert Affairs. Why or why couldn't they show at least 1 training scene with either Kung Fu or the bow staff? Anything that would give you a foundation. She is flailing and I'm not interested in watching her survive given the rest of the story is how highly trained individuals die when they get over their heads while Laurel gets a boo-boo. But somehow, we're supposed to separate Laurel and Ray from the rest of the message. You can't ask me as an audience member to have two sets of rules for my characters. 1 message, 1 set of rules. Being a vigilante is a suicide mission. The only way out is death. It eats away at your soul. It is a last resort path of redemption after your crucible.

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  151. Gaia Di LorenzoJanuary 24, 2015 at 8:30 AM

    yay so happy

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  152. JonJanuary 24, 2015 at 8:49 AM

    Plus the sonic device is very much comic canon too, it's what she used during the years she was without the Canary Cry due to injuries in The Longbow Hunters until it was restored via Lazarus Pit in Birds of Prey #34

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  153. MurderMondaysJanuary 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM

    Seriously. This whole "learn on the job" thing they're doing with Laurel makes no sense. Vigilantism is not a "learn on the job" vocation. There are serious consequences if you fail. In S1, when Oliver failed, people died or he missed his chance at rescue(on the island).


    She should have spent this whole season training. Instead we got to see her training a few nights a week after work. Frelling Thea had more intense training and she still isn't believable as a fighter.

    ReplyDelete
  154. MeatyStakesJanuary 24, 2015 at 8:15 PM

    Lol you are so pressed

    ReplyDelete
  155. miracle2012January 26, 2015 at 9:12 AM

    Finally, some more Laurel on the show! But she has a lot to learn.

    ReplyDelete

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