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SpoilerTV - TV Spoilers

POLL : What did you think of Supernatural - Paper Moon?

29 Oct 2014

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84 comments:

  1. chris68429 October 2014 at 02:03

    Yup, the season peaked in episode. A positive is that I thought Kate made a decent guest.

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  2. Judy Smith29 October 2014 at 02:07

    Great episode. I liked how it played on the struggle that Sam and Dean have had for the last few weeks. Unlike Kate, they didn't give up on each other and always find a way to bring each other back. Boys are doing a great job. Loving this season so far.

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  3. chris68429 October 2014 at 02:09

    I couldn't figure our which one was supposed to be Kate. I kept flipping back and forth between Dean and Sam through the whole episode.

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  4. Ambar Moreno Candelas29 October 2014 at 02:10

    Amazing!!! :D I love so much the scenes with Sam and Dean together !! :´) ♥ The Winchester are back !! :P

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  5. lala229 October 2014 at 02:12

    Haha . . . . so you didn't like it, huh?

    ReplyDelete
  6. Katherine29 October 2014 at 02:17

    I liked it but what was with the parallels between sam and dean and the girls. Kind of like that ghostfacers episode last season. Anyway i thought it was a decent episode.

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  7. kerinda29 October 2014 at 02:19

    I liked the Ep but it sad what Kate did too her Sister why can't people just let go all ready?

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  8. chris68429 October 2014 at 02:24

    It was just such a buzz kill. I have my usual list of criticisms. First is that I thought Dean was OOC in his drilling of Sam of what Sam did. Dean deflects and avoids. Sam confronts on the emotional stuff. Second, I thought the chick flick moment convo in the Impala was overdone. But that the big thing is that I want these two to have a STORY with plot twists and action. I don't want another season of nonstop emoting.

    But on the positive front, I was pleasantly surprised that I cared about Kate's story. And the OOC moments weren't as bad as they could have been.

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  9. lala229 October 2014 at 02:31

    Hmmm . . . I was watching AOS but flipped to a point where Dean was grilling Sam about what he had done to find him, and it annoyed me but I guess I should see it in context first.

    I hated "Bitten," so I am interested in whether I will care about Kate and her werewolf issues! I guess I'll watch this one shortly.

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  10. lala229 October 2014 at 02:32

    So, was it as anvilicious as that Ghostfacers episode? I sincerely hope not!

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  11. Donna C29 October 2014 at 02:37

    It's not really. And I'm a huge Marvel fan, both comics and the MCU. And I like most of the characters. It's just ... I don't know. They could do a lot more than what they are. At least it's better than it was last season.

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  12. chris68429 October 2014 at 02:39

    Good to know. Thanks!

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  13. Katherine29 October 2014 at 02:45

    It was pretty clear they were comparing deans struggle with being a monster to kate struggling, wanting to try anything to calm the beast inside her as with dean dealing with the mark i guess.

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  15. Christina29 October 2014 at 02:54

    I did not have to FW through boring the angel SL.

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  16. chris68429 October 2014 at 02:59

    I actually missed Cas and Hannah this week.

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  17. Peter J429 October 2014 at 03:01

    I thought that was sort of typical of Dean - he tends to get aggressive about Sam's mistakes when he's upset about his own. He learned that from John.


    I thought the episode was heavy-handed, but OK.

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  18. Peter J429 October 2014 at 03:02

    I thought they left it ambiguous (yet clumsy, as always), but I have a feeling Dean will be the one who has to kill Sam.

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  19. Peter J429 October 2014 at 03:02

    No. Not that clumsy.

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  20. lala229 October 2014 at 03:04

    That's good to know b/c that episode was horrible w/its anvils!

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  21. Shannon29 October 2014 at 03:05

    Umm yeahh, I'm gonna be honest, i stopped watching after ten minutes b/ it just wasn't pulling me in, and this is AFTER I rewinded it to pay full attention from the beginning. So yeahh i let it play but wasn't listening, i did however, look at the screen when they previews the promo. The promo alone seemed more entertaining than this entire episode. LOL...I'll try and watch the episode again tomorrow. Yay for DVR.

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  22. lala229 October 2014 at 03:12

    Okay. That sounds interesting. Thanks!

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  23. Christina29 October 2014 at 03:12

    THE CW PTB need to give you a Heaven and Hell spin off. The angel & demon SL is just a long drawn out boring soap opera & Supernatural is NOT a soap opera. Supernatural used to be a cool and unique show, sadly not anymore.

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  24. Peter J429 October 2014 at 03:12

    The episode was a mess and none of what the Ghostfacers were doing made any sense.


    This episode at least had more POV for both characters beyond whining or passive-aggressiveness, and Sam had a fair amount to do, so you may like it.

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  25. lala229 October 2014 at 03:13

    Hmm . . . I don't know if that's a good thing or not.
    I didn't dislike "Thinman" but the parallels or the attempted parallels were too obvious for me.

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  26. lala229 October 2014 at 03:14

    In general you feel that way? Or was it something about this episode that made you feel that way.



    I ask b/c ever since Carver returned, I have felt he has wanted to end the show w/Dean killing Sam, accepting Sam's death, and moving on w/his life.

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  27. Peter J429 October 2014 at 03:16

    The deal he made to keep Sam alive (twice now), and just the idea of Sam becoming darker. I feel like they are expecting us to believe Sam will have to kill Dean, and they will flip it.

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  28. lala229 October 2014 at 03:16

    Hahaha! I understand that. I would watch "Resurrection," but I already watch "The Walking Dean" and I refuse to pick up any more shows!

    If you liked the movie, "The Avengers," "Ironman," "Thor," or "Captain America," I think you would like AOS. I enjoy it.

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  29. lala229 October 2014 at 03:18

    I think it is an entertaining show. I enjoyed last season and this season is even better. I am not a huge Marvel fan though. I've never read the comics, but I have seen a lot of the movies - not all of them, but most of the recent ones.

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  30. lala229 October 2014 at 03:19

    Ahhh . . . I can believe that. I think Carver is still on his "maturity" kick so I'm sure he will have Sam dying in some way and Dean accepting Sam's death. I could see him doing that.

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  31. lala229 October 2014 at 03:20

    Thanks, Peter!



    There hasn't been one episode I really liked this year so hopefully this will be the one.

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  32. CGS29 October 2014 at 03:22

    My ex-boyfriend's half-sister's brother's daughter-in-law makes 89 an hour on the internet. Beat that bitch.

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  33. Katherine29 October 2014 at 03:31

    Maybe spn just doesn't do it for you anymore. My advice, stop watching altogether. Imo there have been other episodes more boring than this one. But then again it is your own opinion and choice to do and say as u please.

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  34. Shannon29 October 2014 at 03:43

    Well i've been watching for ten years it'd be pretty dumb to stop watching now. I didn't said i hated it i said i was bored with it. There's a difference. There's been plenty of boring episodes, i don't stop watching a series b/c it's boring. I'm more upset with the SL this season, even more so since last week.

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  35. Katherine29 October 2014 at 03:59

    Some people have quit even after 9 years watching but i cant do something like that. As for the episode, what bored you? Was it kates story or sam and dean convos? I actually liked their convos. I honestly dont know where the rest of the season is going to go but i would perfer less filler at this point. Can u believe its already been 10 years?

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  36. lala229 October 2014 at 04:06

    LOL :-)

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  37. Shannon29 October 2014 at 04:12

    Well that's just foolish. But w/e I could never do that. And i couldn't tell you, what turned me off was Kate, but i haven't been happy with the SL for DD since it started. And when i finally got a little glimpse of what i was hoping for, it was taken away. So seeing the boys sitting there on benches in sunglasses really wasn't working for me. I can't believe they LASTED 10 years. IMO they've should've stopped at season 7, but w/e. I still enjoy/love the show. but now i'm just waiting for it to end. Which will most likely be this season.

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  38. Katherine29 October 2014 at 04:46

    Most likely this won't be the last season. You're gonna have to wait a bit longer for the real end. Plus the writers are thinking of doing another attempt at a spin off.

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  39. Shannon29 October 2014 at 04:55

    Ha! we'll see. And if they're attempting another spin off they better do a better job than that trash they laid on us. And I don't count spin offs as the original series from which it started from.

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  40. Katherine29 October 2014 at 05:02

    I agree, bloodlines was just...ugh.
    Jeremy has said there might be another season after 10. Will u miss spn when it ends? I know i will

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  41. Peter J429 October 2014 at 05:07

    Mark Pedowitz said back in early 2013 that he couldn't see any SPN characters carrying a spinoff. Unless he's changed his mind I don't see that changing, sadly.

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  42. Shannon29 October 2014 at 06:05

    Shrugs, doesn't bother me. They tried with the one they just let out and it was horrendous! And quickly got "cancelled" after it aired. Pretty embarassing for a backdoor pilot. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't change their mind to NOT try again. However, if they did, i'd be all, "wow they really want a spinoff to succeed." I'd rather they just started a new show altogether from scratch.

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  43. Peter J429 October 2014 at 06:07

    Most backdoor pilots don't get picked up. I do tend to blame most of the episode's failure on the CW. None of the episode felt like SPN.


    They interviewed Carver and Kripke (who rarely speaks about the show in recent years, so that surprised me) about a spinoff, a week or two ago, and they mentioned J2 would also be involved in making decisions. If they do another I think it will be very different.

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  44. Shannon29 October 2014 at 06:12

    Oh yeah of course i'll miss it!! These are my boys ya know?? We've been through so much! I'll always love my SPN family. Today i watched the repeat of Death's Door, and cried my eyes out like i did the first time it aired. (I hated what they did with Bobby after that, except when he officially left that was the send off he should've gotten) But otoh, when it's time to wrap up, it's time to wrap up. I'll be very shocked if they get renewed for a season 11. All i ask is that they go out with a bang, i think we deserves that after all the so so/crappy seasons we had through recent years. I still won't change my mind that it needs to end, i'm on the side with half the fanbase saying "end it already" but i know the other half is saying "go for 11." But we'll see.

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  45. Shannon29 October 2014 at 06:37

    Personally I hate backdoor pilots, but if they work they work, if they don't then oh well. It's really a hit or miss, and this missed big time.

    I didn't see that interview but I too would've been surprised that he spoke up. IF they're to do another, they'd have no choice BUT to make it different if they want to be picked up.

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  46. Hellboy29 October 2014 at 06:47

    Yeah. They also said they were going be seeding various spin-off ideas throughout the season, so there apparently won't be a "Bloodlines" type of backdoor pilot episode.

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  47. Peter J429 October 2014 at 07:06

    A season 11 will probably depend on the ratings and the success of their other shows. I think the show going against SHIELD (which is very similar to CW shows in demo reach) may make the CW realize it won't get the same ratings it might have a year ago. Of course if they get a bunch of new hit shows that would make them more likely to move on. So far, other than Flash, they haven't.


    I'd just rather not see an ending where Sam and Dean die and it's so beautiful, or one lives and the other is in emo angst. I'd rather they both live.


    I think if they had a stronger recurring cast the show could go on for a while longer. I'll never know why they got rid of Kevin.


    As for "it's time to end" - everyone has their own opinion, of course. For me the show stopped being really good after season 2 and everything since then has been up and down. I take the good with the bad.

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  48. Peter J429 October 2014 at 07:49

    Beyond what was already talked about in other comments, I will say that I appreciated Kate's exit. I thought it was a nice callback to the moodier, noirish ambiguousness of the earlier seasons. I liked that she said she'd try, but that was the best she can do, and please leave her alone. I thought the walking into the night, the highway, was a good callback to her first exit, and a callback to Meg's classic entrance in the first season.


    I don't mind that Garth got a happy wolf family ending, but Kate being shipped off to them when she's not that type of character would have rang false to me. She's much closer to the personality type of someone like Dean, and that's an exit I could see Dean having if he'd stayed a vampire or what have you.

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  49. thesilentpoethosea29 October 2014 at 08:59

    Dean's drilling of Sam is not that out of character to be honest. He's done that on a number of occasions. What he deflects and avoids is his *own* actions. That's all consistent.

    That being said, I kinda hope they really get to the meat of the matter and resolve it so they can move on in a healthy fashion. But, knowing this show, what will probably happen is we'll get a few more scenes where they kind of dance around the topic then sweep it under the rug to focus on their case.

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  50. ParadiseHeat29 October 2014 at 09:13

    like transference? He feels guilty about his own mistakes but cant deal with his emotions so he deflacts by pointing out someone elses mistakes and making them feel like crap instead? I know Dean has always been a bit judgemental and self righteous but honestly the writers havent had him do too much wrong over the years so his agression towards others when they do stuff wrong isnt that noticable and actually quite justifiable. It just comes across as him questioning other peoples bad behaviour and like he's the moral centre of the show which he has been for years now. If they had him actually do questionable things which were backed as being questional by the writing instead of the writing saying he is always right than his deference would come across as more agressive and infair. I highly doubt many people thought Dean was wrong or in any way particularly agressive towards Sam when he was questioning his behaviour.
    Rememeber this is a case of Sam being wrong in what he did to find Dean and not a case of Dean looking at his actions last season (how he saved Sam) which the writers have already told us were right. We're supposed to be questioning Sam's actions unlike last season when we were supposed to agree with Dean's.

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  51. ParadiseHeat29 October 2014 at 09:14

    something to do with the MOC or just generally because of who/what Sam is generally?

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  52. ParadiseHeat29 October 2014 at 09:18

    I agree, I dont think Carver has much love for Sam and has been headed down the Dean killing Sam to 'save' him route since the start. It makes the whole Cain storyline more meaningful in the grand scheme and makes more sense why we never get Abel's side of the story. Cain is the good guy, the justified, the hero (Dean) and Abel is the bad guy who was duped and needed to die to be saved by his heroic sacrificial brother (Sam)?

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  53. ParadiseHeat29 October 2014 at 09:24

    OR the MOC will make Dean need to kill his brother to 'save' him like Cain, he'll try everything to justify his actions ie Sam becoming a monster/darker? Whether Sam really is a monster that needs putting down doesnt really matter anymore IMO I kinda feel like his fate has always been to die in order to seal Dean's status as the shows hero

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  54. ParadiseHeat29 October 2014 at 09:26

    funny how its mature and the right thing to do if Sam dies and Dean lets him and moves on but if Dean dies and Sam tries to move on he's wrong?

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  55. ParadiseHeat29 October 2014 at 09:28

    not touching that one with a barge pole

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  56. lala229 October 2014 at 12:21

    I would have missed it a few years ago, but now, I don't think I would. The quality has greatly declined, IMO. The Carver years have been the worst - in my eyes - for the show so I can't say I will miss his version of Supernatural.

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  57. lala229 October 2014 at 12:26

    I agree. Ever since Carver went on and on about Sam being the one to behave maturely in S8 by not looking for Dean, I've thought Carver wants Dean to learn how to let Sam go. I will not be surprised if the series ends in Sam's death and Dean letting him stay dead.

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  58. lala229 October 2014 at 12:54

    If they had him actually do questionable things which were backed as being questional by the writing. . .


    This! I really agree w/this. I found Dean's angst last night weird b/c he really didn't do very many questionable things as a "demon" unless there are things they will tell us later. He wasn't wreaking havoc on towns and killing innocents. He spent much of his time drinking, watching porn, killing other demons, and fighting random people. I don't know. Dean's time as a demon was pretty uneventful, IMO, so I'm not sure the angst is warranted. I wish the writing had allowed DD to do questionable things, but it didn't. Anyway, I agree that Dean's questioning of Sam's actions seemed a bit judgmental. It was also a huge deflection from what Sam was trying to talk about. The whole conversation pretty much fell flat to me given the overall weakness of the DD arc. That is a writing complaint, not an acting complaint BTW.

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  59. K Smith29 October 2014 at 13:11

    I was very disappointed with this episode. I hate that we lost Demon Dean for this crap. Adam Glass scripts are hit and miss for me, and this was definitely a "miss" for me.
    So, Sam pushing Dean to talk is okay, but Dean pushing Sam to talk is Dean being mean to Sam? Holy double standards, Batman.
    So Sam did bad stuff to save Dean this season, like Dean did last season. But, there is a difference in how the actions are being portrayed and how the saved brother deals with the other brother.

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  60. Shannon29 October 2014 at 13:43

    Actually there's a lot of CW shows in the works, so I wouldn't hold my breath for better ratings for SPN (as better as they could get anyway or a season 11 that's just me).

    I'd rather have both the brothers die. TThey've done the "one lives one dies" crap over and over and over again, it's stale. I'd rather they both die, which I actually think would be a nice ending for them OR they both live, and the last clip we see is them on the road and Dean saying, "Let's do it Sammy." Ya know some "happy ending" . I really didn't care much for Kevin, so I'll skip that. But ftr I wasn't relieved when he died either.

    As for my "It's time to end" comment, I strongly stand by it. True everyone has their own opinion, and half the fanbase would agree with me, and half wouldn't, that's fine. Personally I felt the show stopped being good at 6, then we had 7. And it should've ended after that. (How they made it to ten seasons iI'll still never understand I think it mostly has to do with the fans not wanting to let it go tbh) Yeah, that's my motto, good with bad, but this is so so to just plain awful. This is so far gone from the SPN we ALL grew to love, have the time idk what the writers are thinking. Sure i'mI'm a loyal devoted fan, doesn't mean iI have to be blind to the bad parts of the series.

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  61. chris68429 October 2014 at 14:18

    It's probably something I'd watch at a different time, but I feel like TV is oversaturated with superhero comic shows right now. I'll watch one, possibly two, at a time.

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  62. Audrey29 October 2014 at 14:24

    I didn't like Thinman because it was way way too obvious.
    But I loved this one, the parallells are here but I wouldn't say subtle, how to describe it ?
    I know, Sam and Dean didn't hide their feelings and talked about it directly, comparing the 2 situations. So it's not subtle or supposed to be hidden.
    I am not vey clear, right ?

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  63. Audrey29 October 2014 at 14:25

    You're kidding right ?

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  64. sharonally29 October 2014 at 15:11

    Yes.there is a world of difference in how Dean's actions are treated and how Sam's are.

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  65. Jackie29 October 2014 at 16:15

    Yes, Dean thanked Sam for saving him and Sam...didn't. I hope Sam, since he's now been put in the same desperate position as Dean was in, will tell Dean he understands why Dean did what he did and Sam admits he was wrong to say some of what Sam said in season 9, like how Dean only sacrifices when others get hurt.

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  66. Jackie29 October 2014 at 16:19

    I think the Gamble years are just as bad as the Carver years.

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  67. chris68429 October 2014 at 16:33

    Partially, because I get a little annoyed at the extreme reactions, and that includes those from the anti-angel factions. But with that said, my comment wasn't 100% untrue. I've always liked Cas, and Hannah is growing on me.


    My main annoyance with Cas and Hannah's journeys is that they've been inserted into episodes where there was a much more interesting story happening elsewhere. Yet we have these slower episodes with to much on-the-nose parallels drawn out over a whole episode to tell us things we've already pretty much figured out (there's tension in the Winchester relationship). I think the pacing would benefit by inserting the side stories into these MOTW episodes rather than heavier mytharc ones. If they wanted to be really clever, they could present a different angle to the monster theme by writing it into what is happening with Cas and Hannah that week.

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  68. chris68429 October 2014 at 16:36

    I still have seasons 1-3 Dean and Sam stuck in my head. I agree that Dean in recent seasons have been aggressive about pointing out Sam's mistakes (mostly in other Glass episodes), but I've been saying that's out of character for a few years now.

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  69. chris68429 October 2014 at 16:37

    "The Walking Dean"? haha

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  70. chris68429 October 2014 at 16:41

    I can't figure out where they're going here. I think the Mark's influence will continue to grow in making Dean want to kill Sam, but I can't believe that will be presented as a good thing. The problem with this parallel (Sam was the younger sister) is that the real Sam was never (even hopped up on demon blood) such a cold, stereotypical villain that needed to be killed. If they want to go there, they have a lot of work in transitioning Sam into what is basically what is a completely different person.

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  71. chris68429 October 2014 at 17:07

    Sam said Dean only sacrifices when others get hurt? Not a quote I remember.


    I think the differences here are 1) as a human, Dean doesn't want to be a murdering demon so he sees what Sam did as a good thing, whereas as a human, Sam wanted to stay human rather than be turned into a something Supernaturally possessed that was killing things, so he had issues with what Dean did 2) Dean lied to human Sam repeatedly about what was inside Sam's body to keep Sam from expelling the angel whereas Sam isn't lying to Dean about curing him.

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  72. Audrey29 October 2014 at 17:40

    I think too this part would be better in this kind of episodes but really, I can't stand Cass storyline since last season. I am very very bored by it and you are right, it breaks the mytharc episodes.
    I realize it's a low budget show and they can't pay Misha in all episodes so they keep him for the big mytharc episodes but it doesn't help the show and the story.
    To be honest, I don't even know if Cass still has a storyline since he got some grace back and the 2 angels are dead. Hannah doesn't bring me anything.
    So this episode was very refreshing for me without them.

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  73. Audrey29 October 2014 at 17:45

    Why do you say Dean is mean to Sam to push him to talk ?
    I think they have to learn to talk to each other and stop burry their feeling. And last night, they started it, it's a nice change.

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  74. Marinus January29 October 2014 at 18:12

    A bit disappointed with the ep, boring case the guys picked up but good bro/emotional stuff. SandD said more words to each other since that ugly rift in season 9. Good sign for them be back on the same road. And of course, that Sons of Anarchy reference! Made my evening! Awesome!!!

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  75. ScottA29 October 2014 at 18:21

    Once again, you hit the nail right on the head. It was the perfect episode for the "classic" episode fans but this damn story has got to move along. I wonder if Crowley could end up with the MoC before it all ends?

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  76. Alexis29 October 2014 at 18:22

    I liked it. I'm glad, they didn't turn Kate into a monster, and suddenly she has become one of my favorite character, I hope to see more of her. The ending was sad, Kate with her backpack like in the first episode of the season. I'd be fun, if she were some kinda sidekick.

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  77. K Smith29 October 2014 at 18:27

    I wasn't saying Dean was being mean to Sam, I was being sarcastic because other commenters here were implying Dean was being mean to Sam.

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  78. Audrey29 October 2014 at 19:47

    sorry, I knew you were sarcastic but I haven't read these comments.
    I think it's a good think because we finally have both points of view and it's a nice change.

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  79. lala229 October 2014 at 22:11

    Well, of her two seasons, I really enjoyed one: S6. Of Carver's two seasons, I have enjoyed none so Gamble wins over Carver for me.

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  80. lala229 October 2014 at 22:33

    Hahahaha!



    Did I really write that? Hilarious :-)

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  81. Katherine30 October 2014 at 23:33

    Even with Carver on the reign, i will still miss it dearly.

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  82. Ginger31 October 2014 at 15:42

    I agree with you, chris684. Dean would never push anyone, especially Sam, to open up, because he is afraid they will push back, so he deflects and avoids.
    As soon as Carver made it known that there was no mytharc for the season -- no through story, only 'personal journeys,' -- I knew we were in for another season of teenage angst and melodrama. When the writers start filling a show with 'fun' episodes and exploring inner feelings, all tension, drama, and suspense is taken out of it.
    Personally, it wasn't the worse episode ever, but I thought the basic premise for the falling anvils -- Kate turning Tasha and having to clean up her mess -- was completely false. Neither of the brothers would turn the other into a monsters; they would rather die themselves first. So, for me, not being able to buy into the story from the beginning allowed me to miss the falling anvils, but it also left me completely baffled by what this episode was supposed to be telling us about where each brother was. Sam is in denial that he did anything wrong....again...and Dean is embarrassed about...something...and has low self-esteem because everything he has ever done is wrong. How is that new and interesting?
    I did not wonder about or care about Kate at the ending of Bitten, and I still don't. Pretty run of the mill MotW episode, but I really, really, really despise that every time an episode is written specifically to bring back someone previously used, the brothers are turned into incompetent hunters. Dean, who two episodes ago, easily played with Cole using just his human skills, has cleaned out two vamp nests by himself, and can kill three demons at one time now has to be saved by a newbie teenage werewolf (Sam, too) and Dean can't make a kill on another newbie werewolf because he's 'rusty' (I guess). It is good to know that Sam, however, can now handle demons and monsters with one armed tied behind his back? I guess that makes him the best hunter on the planet and Dean is...well, I don't know what Dean is supposed to be now....the big brother who needs taken care of maybe.

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  83. evave21 November 2014 at 13:07

    Was Bobby's death a big surprise in Season 7?


    I was not watching at the time (I have now seen TNT rolling out three episodes a day and watched it happen at least three times now) and just wonder if people were surprised. I gather Dean's dying at the end of Season 3 was a HUGE surprise (everybody thought he would be saved at the last minute) and I can't imagine how wrecked fans were after the Hellhound ripped Dean to shreds, but I am now curious if Bobby's death was./was not spoiled.

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  84. Shannon1 November 2014 at 23:43

    To most fans, yes it was and very sad. A lot of fans cried. And me personally, I like to stay away from 90% of the spoilers with SPN(and most of my other shows) so it came as a big surprise for me. But i remember that night, when Death's Door aired, the shock factor was huge.

    ReplyDelete

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