Demon Dean has the car and doesn't care as much as regular Dean does. #wbsdcc #Supernatural
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014Sam deals with how to rescue his bro from being a demon & Dean is struggling with what it means. Jensen directed Ep where they interact anew
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014Dean as a demon isn't a possession -it's his soul that is twisted and demonic, no possession is going on. #WBSDCC
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014Demon!Dean was tied up most of the time in Ep 3. #wbsdcc #Supernatural
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014Where is Castiel in the start of spn 10? His grace is fading he is less strong and less fun.
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014Castiel is trying to get Dean patched up - a priority over getting his own powers back. #wbsdcc
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014The 200th episode is musical-ish. #wbsdcc a love letter to the fans - with songs! There is also singing in the season opener.
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014There will also be rump-shaking. And demon!Dean may karaoke. #wbsdcc
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014Would @WilliamShatner have to audition to be on SPN? Misha says yes. #wbsdcc
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014What are we going to learn about Crowley? What is here left to learn, Mark asks. The world revolves around Crowley.
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014"Most of the other worlds revolve around Crowley." --Mark Sheppard
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014Jensen notes: everyone wants a piece of Dean. He's he guy you want around if you're in a jam. Mark likes Demon!Dean.
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014The interesting thing with Demon!Dean and Crowley is that eventually Crowley may think is is a bad idea. #wbsdcc
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014.@jarpad on Dean - the way he show was set up, Sam wanted to be a homebody and Dean was the Han Solo rambling man. That difference at cores-
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014-is why Dean has more relationships outside of Sam than Sam does outside of Dean. --@jarpad #Supernatural #wbsdcc
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014They get to do more of a thank you to the fans in Ep 200.
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014That was a juicy clip. Demon Dean and Sam are going at each other's throats. Demon Dean looks like so much fun. #supernatural #sdcc
— Vlada Gelman (@VladaGelman) July 27, 2014A Q from @OsricChau for Jeremy. When is Kevin coming back? Jeremy kinda refuses to answer. #wbsdcc OsricChau''s is in a Journey costume.
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014Mark's Bucket List is to try not to die in S10. Jared says Dean's bucket list is to kill Crowley.
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014Jeremy says Cas's bucket list is staying alive and finding dean. Jensen says: bucket list is Don't Kick the Bucket.
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014Q asks if there will be any female series regulars. Jared asks where's Felicia.
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014Jeremy says a series regular is a technical term and we'll have a lot of new & returning female characters is season.
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014Jensen is talking about fight scenes as Demon!Dean - it sounds like Dean will be possessing someone but it's unclear. Will ask later....
— Supernatural Wiki (@SuperWiki) July 27, 2014Jensen says demon dean does a lot of killing. Poor new stunt guy 'took it like a champ'. #ooooh #sdcc #supernatural
— Fangasm (@FangasmSPN) July 27, 2014
Demon!Dean doing karaoke? Yes please. And I'm getting more and more excited for the 200th episode.
ReplyDeleteThese all sound good!
I'm excited/scared/excited/scared/excited!!! GAH! IS IT OCTOBER 7TH YET!?!?!
ReplyDeleteI want to see the SPN comic-con clip like NOW!!
ReplyDelete"@jarpad on Dean - the way he show was set up, Sam wanted to be a homebody and Dean was the Han Solo rambling man. That difference at cores--is why Dean has more relationships outside of Sam than Sam does outside of Dean."
ReplyDeleteI'll wait for the tape and to hear the full quote, but this sounds like Jared was handed a pile of BS and a shovel by TPTB. That explains why Dean leaves a bar with more phone numbers, not why Dean has more long-term relationships.
"Castiel is trying to get Dean patched up - a priority over getting his own powers back."
This sounds like bad fanfic.
"That was a juicy clip. Demon Dean and Sam are going at each other's throats. Demon Dean looks like so much fun."
This sounds interesting.
Q asks if there will be any female series regulars. Jared asks where's Felicia.
God ... please ... no
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I've just seen it. It looks so freaking good! Winchesterbros just tweeted out a link.
ReplyDeletethis really does not sound good too me at all. more Bad its sad too see this show go this way but I try too keep watching and see if this story line works out but not getting the hopes up.
ReplyDeleteWhat specifically don't you like about demon Dean? Personally it's got me more excited for the new season in than I've been in a long time.
ReplyDeleteThis is very disappointing. I see all the actors talked about their characters in season 10 except Jared Padalecki who talked about grammar! That really says a lot. I don't know whats the point holding onto hope season after season for some bit of exploration or insightful writing for Sam when nothing ever comes of it, and going by this there's no reason to think this season will be any different.
ReplyDeleteI just think that they don't wanna spill anything. I watched the clip and it's pretty clear that Sam has been a very busy boy while trying to find Dean. And I don't think it'll end there. I guess we'll have to wait and see...
ReplyDeleteThis 'waiting to see' is the problem, I'm afraid. Season after season, there's a wait and see approach when it comes to Sam. Last season we were waiting to see how he'd react to being possessed, we got nothing bar 30 seconds in the last episode. Season 7 we were waiting to see why Sam didn't look or why he believed Dean was dead, we got nothing at all. I'm sorry for being cynical but I'm not expecting different this year. The show hadn't written for Sam, the character and not the plot point, since Carver took over, maybe even since Kripke left, so I don't believe they'll do it this season. Dean is the protagonist, he's the 'hero', everyone else is pretty much surplus to requirements.
ReplyDeleteI haven't watched the panel video if there's one out there yet, so I'm not getting the grammar reference, but the tweet about Jared talking about why Sam doesn't interact with other characters speaks volumes. It sounds like a PR spin (an answer Jared was told to give when asked that question) designed to set up expectations of little Sam interaction this season with other characters.
ReplyDeletePeople make the argument that the reason is Sam's nature, but the truth is that interaction with other characters is essential for getting any type of insight into a character's thoughts. Other characters reflect back what's going on - whether it's through comments that the central character makes, observations that the supporting character makes, or scenarios between the two that help set up the state of mind. Regardless of how good an actor is, you can't get enough context from emotional looks.
Plus, Sam had plenty of interaction with other characters in the earlier seasons, so that does sound like codswallop. 'Oh, he's an introvert' really is a good excuse to not write for Sam, instead giving all the focus to every other character, lead and guest.
ReplyDeleteYeah, the pilot showed Dean as the lone wolf while Sam was the one surrounded by friends. We're now supposed to buy that no one would be interested in being friends with the brother who is more sincere (using the Hans Solo/player comparison here) and empathetic?
ReplyDeleteI think they're setting up something, but they have a track record with Sam of setting up something that sounds very interesting at the start of the season, and then losing interest in writing out the story when the focus shifts from how that affects Dean to how it affects Sam.
ReplyDeleteI dislike the demon!dean thing so much. I don't know how to feel about SPN and Glee being the only two shows I have stopped watching.
ReplyDeleteThat was then, this is now. This is now Carvers SPN, so unfortunately we've no choice but to buy it.
ReplyDeleteExcept that this has been going on longer than Carver. When Sam came back soulless, no one cared about Sam except for Dean. Even Bobby, who was supposed to be Sam's surrogate father, seemed more like he was consulting on a hunting case as opposed to showing worry over his son, who was split in two with half of him still trapped in Hell. Cas, who we're supposed to believe is close to Sam too, was detached and analytical about soulless Sam, but he's now putting fixing Dean above his own life?
ReplyDeleteCurious why. Although I'm finding this twist a much needed change-of-pace, I can see a number of reasons why people might not like it. But I'm curious what your reasons are.
ReplyDeleteI know. I was trying to put that into my comment, that the last showrunner who seemed to give a crap about Sam as a viable character was Kripke, but my ipad was having a moment so I gave up! SPN really is the Dean show now. Characters flock of him while they are almost repelled by Sam. It's their goal to be accepted by/forgiven by/trusted by/approved by Dean. It's what drives the show. I don't know why because I don't think Carver has done Dean any favours since he took over but that's what is being shown in screen.
ReplyDeleteIt is very telling that despite Dean being a 'demon' that it seems Sam's actions to find Dean and help him are far more worrying. Not that is not a road well travelled on the show it just makes you wonder who they intended to be the 'monster' in this scenario.
ReplyDeleteA pile of BS that Sam knew about since season one? He even made the Han Solo connection, a connection made from the very beginning with Dean being Han and Sam being Luke, the homebody. If you find it to be BS, then that's you prerogative, but it certainly sounds accurate to the roots of Supernatual and who Sam and Dean were meant to be from the very beginning. Dean was always out there on the road, while Sam weren't for four years and tried to have a life with someone, rarely showing any signs of having a lot of friends outside of Jess. The way Sam has been throughout the series, it continues to resemble how Sam was even in the pilot episode.
ReplyDeleteIt looks phenomenal, I must say. Demon!Dean seems to be playing a mental and emotional game with Sam as all demons do, and reminded me of "Phantom Traveler" when the demon was talking about Jess. But now, Demon!Dean seems to be playing on the idea of what Sam has done in the past few months….perhaps taking demon blood?
ReplyDeleteTo you both: Yeah, this.. I expect there will be FBs of what Sam did - Jared said that there would be flashbacks in 10.03 - that caused (referring to the 10.03 clip) Demon Dean to snarl 'who's the biggest monster?' (paraphrased, obviously).
ReplyDeleteI'm still wondering where Sam's S9 "B Storyline' "mission to cure demons" went that both Jared and Carver/Singer spoke about at last year's SDCC.
I agree with everything you said, from Jared being handed PR crap. to shared groaning over FD . Carver said the would be strong, new and returning female characters and I bet FD's one of tem.
ReplyDeleteIt's just isn't working for me thematically, lorewise, nor structurally in the overall of the series.
ReplyDeleteThematically it kinda just sucks. Dean becoming a demon lacks any pathos as it was a external force what made it so, it voids the point that you turn yourself into a demon by your choices. By making it something that was thrown into him unwittingly (Through the mark and in order to kill Abbadon) The thing is, it doesn't either edge in "greater good" nor "obsession" leaving vague enough to just wiggle their way out of it.
Lorewise, it just bothers me how the blade even work, At the end it kinda just worked like a demon deal, why is it so powerful then? Why is it more powerful than an angel sword? is beacuse Lucifer made the deal? Also, it insta turns you into a deamon, no centuries of torture needed. It just doesn't work.
And at the ends, it just feels like another "oh, one brother is being controlled by something, let's save him" and we've had like 5 of those already; it's just trite, despise the coat of paint, it's the same dramatic structure just repeated again.
I'm not calling the Luke/Hans Solo comparison BS. I'm calling this being a reason why Sam wouldn't have friends BS. Did no one like Luke? I thought Lea liked him. And we met a few of Sam's college friends over the seasons. We saw Sam and Jess at a bar with one in the pilot. We were introduced to one in the S1 shapeshifter episode. And Brady (the one possessed by a demon who we met in S5) was Sam's best friend (before he was possessed).
ReplyDeleteAnd while I don't think it's accurate to call Sam the homebody since all we seem to learn about Sam is that he's not as interested in home and family as Dean, that's beside the point anyway. I don't see any connection between how focused you are on making a home and how many friends you have.
It was awesome X 100!
ReplyDeleteThat clip just strengthens my opinion that they should leave Dean a demon through the whole season, assuming there's a season 11 planned.
ReplyDeleteWatching the clip from ep 3 made me feel better about the Carver interview. The clip looked like Dean was trying to push Sam's buttons, and the term "monster" was selected by Dean to rattle Sam. Carver was just mimicking that. Have to see how it plays out.
ReplyDeleteDon't feel bad for being cynical. I'm right there w/you.
ReplyDeleteThe last two seasons have been downright AWFUL for Sam so there is really no reason to expect this upcoming season to be any better. When all Carver can say is the audience will be pondering who the real monster is btw Sam and a DEMON (who is either almost beating people to death or literally killing them) then you know nothing good is in store for Sam.
As I always say, I would love to be surprised but I'm not holding my breath!
Haha! That story got dropped right along w/Sam's feelings re: the possession. I don't feel we ever got to the "root" of his issue w/that but . . . . Carver's moved on I guess.
ReplyDeleteThanks for answering. I see the thematic part differently. I saw Dean seeking out a self-destructive act out of guilt from lying to Sam throughout the first half. In a metaphorical sense, Dean lost himself to his self-hatred demons. Can't argue the other parts though.
ReplyDeleteI thank Jared for warning us to not expect to see Sam interact w/anyone ever (other than Dean of course). I realized that a few seasons back when we kept failing to get his POV. I guess we'll never get it now unless he has a heart-to-heart w/Dean.
ReplyDeleteIt is such crap though. Sam was not a loner in college. He made friends. SS sought out the Campbells and bonded w/them in a way. This concept that Sam is a loner and introverted is simply an excuse the writers' dish out to explain their supreme laziness when it comes to Sam.
Well, I was going to upload the videos I took in the press room, but looks like there's no need....
ReplyDeleteWhat I find hilarious is even characters that bonded to Sam first - Chrissy, Gwen - barely acted like they knew him once introduced to Dean. It's ridiculous!
ReplyDeleteDon't get me wrong. I love Dean, but I love Sam too. It would be nice to give him a friend, but that just ain't gonna happen apparently.
And even if you accept that Sam is a somewhat closed-off character by nature, TV is full of introverted characters who have friendships and enough interaction with other characters to give them development. Don Draper on Mad Men is one example. Darryl, Michonne, and even Rick, are examples on the The Walking Dead. Reese on Person of Interest is another, and I could go on and on.
ReplyDeleteYup! Yet again, Sam is painted as the "evil" one. That will be three seasons in a row! And since they flat out refuse to give Sam a POV, his actions can't even be viewed in any context. I put nothing past Carver. He will have Sam murdering children while DD is beating to death rapists or some such nonsense. Just ugh!!!
ReplyDeleteExactly. Most of what Darryl does is grunt. And Rick too is introverted. The pilot has a scene of Rick and Shane sitting in the cruiser - Shane is telling stories but getting annoyed because Rick won't contribute to the conversation. Rick responds that that's what Lori says too, she's always complaining that he doesn't talk.
ReplyDeleteDid no one like Sam either all of a sudden?
ReplyDeleteJust because people are around Dean more doesn't mean literally no one likes Sam.
I didn't even say Sam didn't have one single friend outside of Jess. My quote was literally "...while Sam wasn't for four years and tried to have a life with someone, rarely showing any signs of having a lot of friends outside of Jess.".
Sam expressed both sadness and righteous anger at being tricked into possession but to most of online fandom - even according to some Bro fans, Sam should have felt nothing but gratitude for what Dean did, I think Carver pre- saw some of that initial reaction - there were spoilers and plenty of discussion for months before Road Trip and may have changed his mind about 'which bro done which wronger' *g*, for the rest of S9.
ReplyDeleteIn earlier interviews Carver stressed that Dean would be making mistakes, doing things he knew Sam wouldn't want (NOT blaming Dean for doing what was totally in character for him to do). Post Road Trio, expected show to lean a tiny bit more to 'Sam's side; and didn't get it, Blaming Carver (and writers) for once again not writing Sam sympathetically (as you said).
Carver should have stood firm to whatever story he was trying to tell. I tend to think Carver had no real clue why Sam was angry so he just skipped over that part. Haha! That's the cynical part of me.
ReplyDeleteWhile I completely understood why Dean what he did in the premiere, I also understood Sam was going to be upset. I wish we had explored why Sam found it so objectionable. It was never very clear to me, and I'm a bi-bro fan.
The interesting thing is the Amy arc had a similar pattern and that played out too quickly for the writing to have been influenced by fan reaction. I remember reading an interview before the fact where Sera was quoted saying something along the lines that following Cas's betrayal, Dean was questioning whether he could trust his own judgment. And then the Amy story happened. When it was wrapped up, it was made to look like Sam needed to realize that being a hunter sometimes meant making difficult decisions (when he had to kill the bad human). We never saw a connection back to Dean's post-Cas state of mind and a suggestion that that had colored his decision with Amy. I think there's a very pro-Dean bias among the staff that doesn't need fandom nudging to start proactively whitewashing things.
ReplyDeletePerhaps if we had a more solid idea of Singer's original plan to keep Sam soulless all season 6 as 'a model' of how the boys would interact with other. I'm afraid that the show would do a SS redux - with Sam trying to keep Demon Dean out of too much trouble until 'Dean' was back to normal. Carver has said that DD will last less than half season - but Carver also says the show leaves wiggle room for 'happy accidents'.
ReplyDeleteI think the Fall finale is long enough for Dean to be a demon but the MOC is entirely different and I think the mark could stay all season, maybe into 11 - it could be similar to Sam's DB addiction through S5. And Dean could slip up occasionally as Sam did. And Jared says (in interviews) that "Demonless Dean" = Dead Dean so that probably also has to solved in some way,
I'd feel different if the brothers were going to be separated again and again through the season; Sam (and Cas?) finds DD in 10.03 - and does what Jensen says DD is tied up. Does DD get away and the two show up separately in 10.05 (200th ep) and Dean gets away for several more episodes? This scenario just makes Sam look incompetent and I had enough of that in portions of S8/S9.
The truth is after last season I feel I've had about as much togetherness of Sam and Dean as I can stand. I'd love to see the writers break out of the mould of predictability and try writing a story for these two characters for a season where they're not tied at the hip, but are instead adversaries.
ReplyDeleteHave you seen the clip, lala ... it's Demon Dean who asks Sam 'who is the bigger monster'?.. But yes, I cannot think of a single act that's in most hunters' repertoire that will make Sam look worse than DD. Torture Demons and Angels/Reapers for info - normal Dean's done that; kill Demons/Angels - Dean's done that, too. Use dark or blood magic - yep again.(I know I don't sound like it atm but I do like Dean).
ReplyDeleteThe only thing I can think of is Sam will resume drinking DB to get stronger - Sam is 'injured' (looks like the show is going to work Jared's injury into the scripts ) and if Sam discovers (there's supposed to be flashback scenes) Dean is a demon with the MOC he might feel he has to 'pump up' to even the playing field to trap DD (as Cas is too weak to aid him much).
It MAY BE both Demon Dean (and Carver) just screwing with Sam's (our heads) and Sam did nothing that a hunter wouldn't do. '
Or it may be Sam did something 'bad' to catch DD but it's something totally different.
I do know maybe it about season 4 and season 5 when Dean keeps on saying we stay human and all and this happens and every one saying Oh this is going too be cool Demon Dean and Piss on Sam for taking demon blood that's what I do not like hey this could go bad or good but it make Dean fans happy I bet.
ReplyDeletethis is so true I that's why I will not like the DD you call it at all everyone think he is going to be bad ass and cool and then Piss on Sam for being evil with the DB and all that It just sucks ok.
ReplyDeleteI think Sam = introvert, dean = extrovert feels more accurate.
ReplyDeleteI think JP mentioned in an interview about (spoiler.....) doing things to humans, which would be something most hunters haven't done and would certainly make Sam look worse than demon Dean. While Deans actions have had repercussions for humans as well, the show has always been careful to not show him being the one to get his hands hands dirty. I doubt they'll take that same level of care with Sam.
ReplyDeleteBut didn't Dean take on the Mark of Cain by choice, so it kinda wasn't thrown into him.
ReplyDeleteI know that Dean is all 'I did what I had to do', but he didn't. He did what he chose to do, and then he chose to put it in external factors ('I'm poison' or 'I did what I had to do' etc.)
That being said, it (becoming a demon via the MoC) doesn't work for me wither. The reason why Dean took on the mark pure silly (to kill a demon they had put out of action with relative ease the season before and who was only back because Sam and Dean were idiotic enough to dig her up and leave her alone while they both went out to answer the same phone call.....), and it will only lead to more epic man-pain and angst from Dean, and we've had that since season 2. Unfortunately it also sounds like what Sam does in season 10 will lead him to be considered untrustworthy, and we've had that since season 1.
I mean it more in the sense of "reap what you sow" and punishment. Demons are basically created out of punishing of their sins. With the MoC it's like the side effect of a choice he made to kill a demon. You can even say that there was some self sacrificing going on there, so thematically it doesn't really work, less so after 9 years of mythology that really don't support that.
ReplyDeleteAnd yeah, turning Dean into a demon to off just one Knight of Hell after fighting Lucifer and the Archangels just seems like too much, specially when there were countless of ways to neutralize Abbadon permanently.
Also, keeping putting the brothers these speshul situations got ridiculous.
um maybe Sam tries to excorsize or cure Dean in episode 3 when they first meet for the season but it obviously doesnt work and Dean either takes off so they are seperated again or they are together from then or out, I know there is supposed to be some good brother stuff in episode 4 so I dont see why you're assuming that Sam is somehow incompetant? It seems to me they'll be back hunting together in episode 3 and onwards. Dean will have decided what kind of Demon he wants to be and I'm assuming they will have to deal with whatever the consequences of Sam's actions miight be? The synopsis of episode 5 makes it very likley that they will be going on MOTW hunts together.
ReplyDeleteI have no desire to see the brothers together again at all, but that would likely mean not a lot of Sam so I'll settle for them having to be together but without the passive agressiveness please. If they hate each other then just outright hate on each other.
ReplyDeleteI cant fathom how Sam taking demon blood would help him find Dean but it does seem like a possibility. How did this show go froma a story about two good guys to two demonic brothers who do whatever they want regardless of the consequences?
ReplyDeleteI'm guess the reasoning is that Sam puts down roots in places where as Dean puts his roots down in relationships? Sam and Dean have been on the road for probably the same number of years overall and they both have shown a desire/need to set down roots in a place. It was after all Dean who embraced the bunker as home where as Sam didnt. IMO this all sounds like a poor excuse for the writers to just not bother writing Sam as person outside of him being a plot device which is what they are pretty much doing again with Sam's storyline this season.
ReplyDeletePlus Sam was told again and again that having people in his life was a bad idea, then nearly everyone he knows dies. If Sam doesnt die bloody at the end of the series he'll end up dying a very lonely man.
ReplyDeleteSam's power was to control demons. If he's not getting the info he needs from demons through traditional means, he might be able to force them to give him that info using his powers. Ironically, that would mean Sam would be violating their agency by taking control over them and forcing them to do something they didn't want to do, so he'd be crossing that line. What I'm having a harder time making work is how Sam hurting innocent humans would help him find Dean, but that may be where we're going.
ReplyDeleteI don't see a lot of focus on Sam now, when he's in the room, so I don't see that much loss there. If anything, separating them would force the writers to think a little creatively about what they want to so with Sam. Right now they can get away with not giving Sam any thought and just having him react to whatever's going on. If he's on his own, they're forced to come up with a plan.
ReplyDeleteI am just worried about Castiel and Sam! I hate to see them sad .
ReplyDeleteTrue, but I think the comparison with Han Solo and Luke Skywalker hold true as it has since S1.
ReplyDeleteAlthough, I would say both Sam and Dean needs to die bloody side by side.
ReplyDeleteSam was able to control demons using his telekinesis early in S4 and then was able to control them even more to the point of destroying them as seen with Alastair and then Lilith. Theoretically, the idea would be that Sam could take control of the 'demon' that's inside Dean, at least for as long as they could cure him, which, the cure that was revealed in "Clip Show" could still play a hand in curing Dean. It may not, but Sam could definitely be a helping hand if he were powerful enough to actually stop Dean. There has been talk that before this even happens, Crowley could even try to make a dean with Sam to kill Dean, which he won't for obvious reasons.
ReplyDelete"What I'm having a harder time making work is how Sam hurting innocent humans would help him find Dean."
ReplyDeleteThat will be something that will make the viewer question as well, though. MAYBE Sam can control the demons and send them to Hell without killing the humans, but it's a 50/50 chance.
This sounds weird but I kinda hope that's how the show ends with a quick clip of them in Heaven with everyone who's ever been on the show ;)
ReplyDeleteWhen Dean wanted to call the bunker home, I viewed it as something that Dean would do, in the sense of picking just any place to call his home. While it's a work area for Sam, it's not A home. Yes, it has a bed, it has a shower, it has a kitchen, but it's not A home to have a wife and kids in, and that, I think, is something Sam has hoped for in the past and still do.
ReplyDeleteWhile a happy ending does sound amazing for once on this series, could it be thought of as 'jumping the shark' when the show has always been about the evil in the world?
ReplyDeleteTrue, it's been about the evil in the world, but it's also about finding the good in it. Like for the brothers it's each other. I think this is the only way they could end the show honestly, maybe not the Heaven part though I'd love to see past characters. Anyway, it's the only way I could see the show ending. We know that the brothers won't let the other die so only killing off one at the end would make no sense cuz the other would try to bring him back. If both were alive then that leads to more stories cuz there is no way they're just going to retire from hunting as we saw with Dean and Lisa and Sam and Amelia. So the only "logical" way for the show to end (in like five years or so) is for both to die in this huge epic battle, bloody and going down swinging.
ReplyDeleteI can't say I'm shocked, Aline. It's a shame when Dean - the demon - will be viewed better than Sam - the human. As you said, the show is real hesitant to "dirty up" Dean even when he's a demon but Sam can be shown in the most awful ways. They don't care how he is perceived, which is why I am not excited for any storyline where he "crosses the line."
ReplyDeleteI have seen the clip. I think I am more troubled by J2 and Carver also commenting on the audience not knowing who the real monster is btw a human and a demon. The answer to that should be fairly obvious. What exactly are they going to have Sam doing? I suspect nothing good.
ReplyDeleteAnd while I never had a problem w/the brothers going to the extreme for each other, doing so never involved intentionally and knowingly harming innocent humans in the past. That will be crossing a line, IMO. I could see them having Sam do something like that, but we probably will get little to no context for his actions. As Aline mentioned down below, they don't tend to write Sam w/the care that they do the other characters, IMO.
I just read the interviews earlier Lala and Aline and I'm infuriated again with Carver. The ONE TIME Sam gets the 'Big Dean Save' that was denied him since the Writers Strike of S3 and Carver and the writers won't give a 'clean save' - no they have to filthy Sam up again. I really wish Edlund/Gamble would come back to 'guest write' an episode - both wrote a multi- layered Sam so you could, well many fans could, feel Sam's internal struggles that went with his actions. Carver can do it - but Carver seems to the ringleader for bad, BAD Sam again.
ReplyDeleteIn another interview Demon Dean is said to beat up several people and kill some others. But he's a demon and will get the same 'pass' as Soulless Sam did - by the SHOW, not by a cadre of fans.
I don't know what the show will have Sam do - in Carver's Mystery Spot Sam was willing to kill a human for the blood to do the summoning spell. Faux!Bobby stopped him and offered himself up as the sacrifice but Sam was pretty certain that 'Bobby' was a fake by then ... maybe Sam will go through with harming/killing innocents for some similar purpose, tracking Demon Dean.
Sam will be vilified again by many in the online fandom.
A human Sam going out at doing things to human beings to find Dean is only going to end one way. I was all for Sam saving Dean but in a intelligent clean way using Sam's clever brain and Men of Letters resource'swithout resorting to cruel actions. The idea that the only way to prove your love in their relationship is to go to extremes and cross lines is not something I have ever believed .
ReplyDeleteSam didn't get a pass by the show for what he did when he was soulless. He tried hard to make amends for what he did, at great personal risk to himself. Dean also brought up Sam being soulless twice (Southern Comfort and Sacrifice) as part of Sam's biggest sins.
ReplyDeleteI do, however, agree that Dean will get a pass for anything he does while a demon, and the focus will be put on anything and everything Sam does to get him back.
I'm reading quotes and becoming more concerned myself. I believe shows can bring great characters to some really dark place as long as it's done with careful thought and planning, and it can be a good thing. The show has a history of not doing that with Sam though. It would be out of character for Sam to ever hurt an innocent human, even to save Dean, so the show would need to walk us through the steps so that we can completely see and understand how he gets there (as they did in Mystery Spot, where we saw Sam watch Dean die over and over in a kind of torture loop). But if the audience understands how Sam got there, that's pretty much in opposition to the writers being "excited" at the prospect of fans wondering if human Sam is more of a monster than demon Dean - to loosely quote Carver.
ReplyDeleteThat's not always the case though. Bela sold her soul to stop being abused. John sold his soul so Dean would not die. In Crossroad Blues, Ethan (Evan, Noel???) sold his soul to save his wife. Sure, some demons are made because of 'reap what you sow', but not all demons originated as nasty, evil little sods.
ReplyDeleteCain did find Dean 'worthy' of the mark. Perhaps this ties back to the sins that he committed on earth and also the 'sins' he committed in hell. He was pulled out of there before he could go fully demon. Add to that, if we just look at many of Dean's actions, and not his intentions, in the past few seasons, they haven't exactly been the nicest or best......
The 'speshul situtations' aspect is, I think, something that is here to stay on the show now. There seems to have been a concentrated move under Carver to sort of glam up the show and make the brothers and their friends extraordinary or 'speshul'. The opulent bunker has replaced Bobbys and motel rooms, Sam and Dean are now 'legacies', their friends are all angels or demons or werewolves or whatever etc.
Yeah, but there's the difference. In those cases everyone knew what they were getting into, they all knew they were going to end in hell. With the mark, it was all about the plot twist, meaning Dean was unaware of what his sacrifice meant. Which is sort of thematically bad, but I fear most that it will be the reason why it will be reversed (as everything in this show). But the thing is, if they don't stick with it (and I don't think they will) it's just half assed and meandering.
ReplyDeleteI don't hate the bunker either, cause at first it meant for me that there was this whole mythology hidden that could have brought more characters and remove the laser focus from the brothers. That didn't happen. But yeah, the fcat that the Winchesters keep being thrust in the middle of these cosmic problems, every single time got boring after season 5. after they made Castiel god at the end of season 6 you just knew it was all going to be about upping the stakes over and over again.
That excuse for why Sam doesn't interact with anyone else is the biggest bunch of HORSE**** I've ever read. I'm a homebody, but I still have effing FRIENDS.
ReplyDeleteSam was out in a bar with a bunch of friends AND his steady girlfriend, albeit though he didn't like it, on Halloween in the pilot. Yeah. He doesn't interact with anyone because he was the homebody and Dean was the party girl.
ReplyDeleteThat's because TWD has a crew of great writers who know what the hell character development is about.
ReplyDelete*What I find hilarious is even characters that bonded to Sam first -
ReplyDeleteChrissy, Gwen - barely acted like they knew him once they were
introduced to Dean. It's weird!*
The one that really bothers me in this scenario is MEG. She completely ignored him except for one scene in season six after she returned to the series in season five.
I thought Luke was the one who wanted to leave Tatooine for bigger and better things because he thought his life was sucky and going nowhere?
ReplyDeleteI should clarify. You're absolutely right, S6 Sam didn't give himself a pass - some great writing in those few episodes! Dean, however kept repeating that Sam wasn't to blame for anything that SS did because IT wasn't 'Sam'. The show has pretty much 'said' that as the primary POV character, Dean 'speaks' for and to the audience.
ReplyDeleteCome S8, it was if nothing substantive was 'remembered' from S6 - by 'Dean' - except ridiculously BLAMING Sam for 'losing his soul' as if it was Sam's fault that he was resurrected without a soul. I was gobsmacked by that poor writing. I get that under the cursed penny's influence Dean carried residual anger at being turned into a vampire by SS just standing by and letting in happen but to blame Sam for being in that condition ... I have no words.
Yes, and right again, the show may have DD kill human males, demons, angels but they'll never have him kill a (possessed) pediatric nurse. DD - as JA and Carver describe DD - is 'normal', pre- S4/5 Dean on steroids, with every emotion increased X-fold.
The show will give everything DD does a pass, however, unlike SS Dean chose to go down this path - to help Crowley kill Abaddon - regardless of the consequences . The same fandom which by and large gave Sam endless grief over consorting with Ruby is going 'give me more and more Crowley and Dean bromance'.
When he's de-demoned, Dean (spoilers say) will feel bad and 'own' all his bad deeds just as Sam felt he owned SS deeds and tried to fix them as you said. Bet the show gives Dean more than one fix-it/redemption episode though because Dean doesn't have a Wall that might crack like SS/Sam did.
I think "adversaries" is too strong and negative a term in this fandom - it brings back Cain/Abel and Michael/Lucifer and Good Son vs Bad Son and Sam; no matter what's going on with him at the time is ALWAYS the 'Bad Character" and Dean is ALWAYS the "Good" character - even as a demon.
ReplyDeleteI'm a Sam - leaning "BroBond Fan" but like you I've never felt the need voiced by some Bro Fans for Sam and Dean to behave like conjoined twins. I would be interested in the Cat and Mouse game the two are playing in the clip for half/3/4 season as long as there was strong writing for both characters in their prolonged separation but I can't count on strong writing for Sam for that long.
By strong writing I don't mean Sam is constantly (foolishly) falling for traps made by DD - I would want Sam depicted this over this theoretical longer haul as a smart & strong hunter; if DD is a super-strong and crafty Demon Sam will have to out-think DD at several points. I don't want Sam to have excessive help for Cas (or Crowley) - help from other sympathetic hunters ok.
Exactly! He was e-mailing friends in S1 too. And wasn't he friendly w/the kid at the hotel in S9? It's not like he was walking around w/his head down, talking to no one!
ReplyDeleteThey sure do! All the characters on TWD are developed and explored. None are flat out ignored or neglected!
ReplyDeleteIt is so very weird and strange! I recall Ellen only speaking to Dean when she ran into Sam and Dean in S5. It was weird. Wouldn't you say hi to both brothers? Acknowledge them both since you know both of them?
ReplyDeleteJust plain weird.
That's my concern, Cyana! In the hands of better writers, I might not be as worried but Carver has shown very little understanding of Sam or how Sam is perceived by the audience. I hate that it seems like Sam is being tossed under the bus again. As you said, we should have gotten a "clean" save, not one that causes you to question who's the real monster!?!?!
ReplyDeleteThat's just ridiculous!
You're right! I forgot about Bobby's vendetta against souled Sam for what SS did! He didn't give Sam a pass at all. Dean did until CARVER came along and rewrote that story w/his OTT, OOC crap!
ReplyDeleteThe Walkmen released an album with a title that seems to apply to Sam these days: Everyone Who Pretended To Like Me Is Gone.
ReplyDeleteHowever introvert doesn't mean not talking to anyone. It just means that he's not comfortable in crowds, he gets on better in small crowds or in one on one situations, and thinks before he says things. We saw this season, a few scant moments where Sam shone when he was in one on one situations (ie Julia). The problem is that the show rarely gives us these one on one situations any more.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Bobby had a vendetta against souled up Sam. Lets face it, the last time Bobby saw him, 'Sam' had him tied up and was standing over him with a knife about to kill him. Bobby's head might logically know that wasn't Sam but it takes a bit of time to get the head and heart back in line. I mean, if you were beaten up by someone, wouldn't you initially be hesitant or jumpy if you met their identical twin?
ReplyDeleteI'm also not too bothered about Dean with the coin bringing up Soulless Sam. Dean might logically know something (ie Soulless Sam was not Sam therefore Sam was not to blame) but in his heart he might be bitter about it ('if Sam loved me enough then soulless or not he'd have told me' etc). I imagine if the situation was reversed Sam would bring up Dean selling his soul as one of Dean's biggest sins, and one of the worst things he ever did to Sam. That was the catalyst that sent Sam on the downslide he's been paying for ever since. Logically he knows that Dean was not responsible for what he chose to do but the fact remains that without Dean doing what he did, things would have been very different for Sam. Chances are that he'd be happy and at peace in heaven, with Jessica or his parents, waiting for Dean.
What I am bothered about is that Dean didn't remember what he said while under the influence of the coin. Had he done so then he might have been able to address, even to himself, the huge issues that he has with accepting / trusting / forgiving Sam. He might be able to ask himself why can't he forgive him and why he so easily uses their brotherhood against Sam. Is it part of the 'dictatorship' mentality, that by focusing on someone else's mistakes and not acknowledging all they did to right the situation, by withholding trust forgiveness etc then you put yourself in a morally superior position to them and therefore you are right to do what you do ie 'All Sam does is mess up, therefore I am right to keep him on a leash' type thing?
I am also bothered by Dean's bringing it up in 8.23. This was soon after Sam had overheard Dean talk about how Sam needed a babysitter etc. Dean wasn't under the influence of anything then and still he brought up the same things. Sure, it was probably just bad writing and forgetting what happened in past seasons (nothing new there!) but Dean didn't even try to temper anything he said ie 'Look, I know you've done a hell of a lot of right' or 'I know that you made amends' or 'Hell, I've committed some pretty big sins in my time' etc, he just jumped straight in with 'These are your sins'. And by doing that, by keeping Sam's sins fresh (for want of a better word) it also reinforces the moral superiority or the 'dictatorship' brought up in season 9.
But did they know? (I'm soooo not too keen on doing a rewatch right now!) I know that with Mary the YED told her that he'd be back for a favour (or something) in ten years time but he didn't say what that was. I know that Crowley likes his demons to be fairly transparent, but all those crossroads demons in prior seasons, did they give full disclosure to their clients?
ReplyDeleteMay I ask, what do you mean by 'reversed'? As in, suddenly Dean won't be a demon any more or that the show (again) forgets its mythology?
I like the bunker as an idea. I like what it could have introduced to the show. It could have given the Winchesters a rich background and a sense of fitting in and belonging for both of them. However, what it is being used for is kind of a way for the show to save money. Instead of different sets for motel rooms and libraries and storage lockers etc there is now one set, and it does it all. Need an ancient artifact? It'll be in the bunker. Need weapons? They'll be in the bunker. Need a book? It'll be in the bunker. Now, I can't fault the show for that because that will save them money and it's all about the money at the end of the day, but it's becoming more and more obvious that this is all that the bunker is. The MoL really haven't added anything to the story because the 2 MoL's we are more acquainted with (Henry and Josie), we mostly see actively hunting.
I definitely agree that the upping the stakes over and over again has gotten boring and as a result the show has (for me) lost the intimacy that made it as rich as it was. Now it's all bash, bang, wallop, how OTT can we make things, including the characters reactions and non-reactions. It's like eating at McDonalds. It'll sate you for a while but you're always left kind of unsatisfied and wanting something with a bit more substance.
To a extent Bobby's reaction could be explained but when the identical twin had no knowledge of what the other one did then his reaction seemed to be aimed at the wrong person. Sam was still in the cage when Soulless was doing his thing what also bothered me was that there was a part of Bobby that seemed to believe that real Sam would act that way towards him .
ReplyDeleteDean is allowed to hold onto his hurts and grudges where Sam is concerned so the coin bring that to the surface was no surprise , disapponting but not surprising but then you fast forward to Sam last year and how his very justifiable feelings towards being possessed were treated by both show and fandom it is a big difference .
He is, and that is one of Dean's major flaws. He doesn't let things go, and he uses them to further his sense of entitlement, to get what he wants and/or to get a pass for what he does. It's extremely childish but he has been written that way for the last number of years, so I don't think it's going to change now.
ReplyDeleteIn relation to the safety net and how we see the two characters etc. For me, Dean is like easy listening. He's more popular but there is no depth to the writing for him any more. He does all these huge things but because they are whitewashed over or because he gets all woobie the audience gives him a pass. Therefore his actions don't get any discussion. Sam is the character who challenges the audience. He is the one who often makes them nervous and uncomfortable and makes them question themselves because we watch him and we think 'Holy crap, why did he do that?' or 'Oh, what a bastard' but then with deeper thought and discussion we might realise that he might not have been too far wrong, or we'd have done the same thing as him. This is what, for me, makes him more memorable. Dean is written as a stereotypical superhero, doing all these mad things because it's just 'what he does' but never hanging around to deal with the aftermath. Sam is written as the everyman hero (the irony!) the one who makes mistakes, very often with the best of intentions, does everything he can to fix them and strives to not make the same mistakes again.
This is one of the things that I'm dreading about season 10, that the show will try and turn Sam into a Dean part deux. That when they show him doing these monstrous things or the consequences of his actions he will just shrug it off with an 'I don't care. I got what I wanted and I'd do it again'. That, for me, is anything but heroic. And unfortunately, while I no longer expect better from Dean (thanks show!), I do expect better from Sam.
They did not know that they were going to become demons, but they were selling their souls to go to hell. Eternal punishment was the end line, and it was known. With Dean now was washy washy vagueness of "It will change uuuuuu"
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's what I mean with reversed, Dean will probably bounce back to humanity by mid season, and yet another threat will appear.
you are sot on with the MoL thing. At the end, its just such a wasted opportunity to add anything new.
Another thing that ahs turned me off the show, is how static all relationships are, there's no emotional development whatsoever anymore in this show, and that just accentuates the stagnation feeling.
There's so much awesomeness happening in tv that idk man, I just don't feel like wasting time on a show that just doesn't excites me anymore beyond the coolness factor (because SPN is still cool) but there are more things in tv and elsewhere that give me that coolness and an emotional investment.
I am really excited about season 10, but I wished they would bring back Cas as a warrior angle instead of the wuss they have made him appear to be lately. I like him as I first saw him, a warrior who didn't take any guff off anyone.
ReplyDeleteI get that, they always paint Sam as the bad guy, and sometimes Dean treats him really bad, and he is suppose care so much for his brother. I miss the comedy of the show, I love that part but haven't seen to much of it lately. I hope they will still include funny Dean although he is now Demon Dean.
ReplyDeleteGosh people I love this show so much, I hope it runs for a lot more years.
ReplyDeleteI am going to love it, I can't wait to see how Sam handles Dean, and what nasty things Dean has planned for Sam. I love the excitement of the show, and the comedy part as well, that is what makes it a great show. The many faces of Sam and Dean, love it.
ReplyDeleteGood for you? And I'm being polite here, cause literally those things sounds as fun as eating dirt to me.
ReplyDeleteI withhold the judgement of "what nasty things Dean has planned for Sam", just know that you are being judged. And I'm not even sure what you mean with "the excitement of the show" how it makes you excited? I don't really care about that. How it IS exciting? I certainly don't agree with that.
But go ahead, love it, I will not hinder your enjoyment of this newest season; that is, unless you engage me in conversation.
why do I always seem to attract crazies. Please don't engage me again.
ReplyDeleteI sure would Lisa
ReplyDelete