I first intended to make this a distillation of all views I collected from fans across the board. I gave up on that idea due to the vast number of contradictory views and decided to stick to my own truth while letting others speak theirs in the comments. What will follow is an account of my experience with the characters of Supernatural in season 9. It will likely be different from yours, or anyone else’s. That doesn’t make it right or wrong. It just makes it the one I wrote.
Characters of Season 9
A few years ago, if someone asked me what Supernatural's best quality was I would have said its characters. They were all archetypes. Dean the self-loathing, nurturing messiah who was raised as a soldier but had to be the leader time and time again to keep his family safe. Sam the reluctant hero who rebelled for his freedom against life and all the bad things it subjected him to, and wasn’t beyond flirting with darkness if it meant getting what he wanted. And Castiel, the one with immeasurable power and a weakness for humanity, who left his family and duties in a quest to find God, and found home and heart with the Winchesters instead. I used to think this show had the best cast of characters a TV show could have.
Sadly, I no longer think that way. In recent years new people took over, whose vision didn’t match my archetypal vision of the dream team. They had other ideas on how to tell their story. Instead of putting characters first and moving the story through their arcs, they bound the characters to their plots and dragged them through scripts, changing their personalities and arcs as they went. This was practiced at full force in season 9 when even the most fundamental traits of some characters disappeared, or got replaced by something else in the space of one or two episodes, for plot related excuses such as receiving a mark or losing a plume of grace.
What bothered me the most this season was that shaping and reshaping of characters and their arcs based on the ongoing story. I see that as lazy writing. It’s easy to say Dean turned from gallant protector to angry dictator because he was hit by a curse. It’s harder to come up with an internal conflict that resulted in that change, something we could identify with and deeply care about, like what Edlund did with Castiel in season 6. (Some might say it was the brothers' rift, but is that really true? Is it enough? What concrete evidence do we have when we never got a Man Who Would be King type episode for Dean?)
This is what we take with us to season 10, characters with vague motives and personalities that come and go like fashion trends, so much so we can’t remember if they resolved one or buried it before moving on to the next. Is Dean still suffering from baseless self-loathing? Does Sam still want to live a free, independent life? Is Castiel still looking for redemption or Dean’s approval in the place of God’s? As of season 9’s finale I can’t say I know, because nothing is steady. They could bring back any or all these issues in season 10, or start the characters like new. When writers don’t feel obligated to stay true to character profiles and histories anything goes.
Dean:
I mourned for Dean this season. He used to be my favorite character, the type of damaged hero who put on a brave, brash front to hide the pain inside, and who put everyone’s wellbeing ahead of his own, not because he was a philanthropist, but because he thought he didn't deserve better. My long time wish for him was that eventually Sam, or Castiel, or both, showed him how valuable he was to the family and the humanity he constantly saved.
The last vestiges of that dream disappeared in season 9, with the manipulation of the brotherly bond in the earlier parts, and the complete trashing of the Dean and Castiel relationship (which even Mr. Ackles confessed to) followed by the Mark of Cain insta-twist.
As you may know, I was never a fan of Dean’s extreme obsession with Sam in the later seasons, when his maxim changed from “everyone’s valuable except me,” to “everyone’s expendable except Sam.” Carver took that to new heights with Dean’s treatment of Benny, Gadreel, and Castiel. He changed Dean from selfless hero to single minded zealot. It went so far even Sam got turned off by it. I was willing to stay with the story in hopes that this was all part of Dean’s journey from a state of living only as a parent to Sam to realizing childhood was over and the need babysit his little brother was long gone.
But that wasn’t Carver’s plan; in fact it wasn’t even on the horizon of his plans. His only reason to put us through the labor pains of Sam railing on Dean, calling off the brotherly bond, and creating a rift as large as the Grand Canyon between them was apparently to fill Dean up to brim with bitterness. On top of that he broke off the Dean and Castiel relationship – the only other bond Dean had in his life – to use Castiel as yet another punching bag for post MoC Dean. He completely isolated Dean, pushed him to the brink of despair, then put a mark on him and called it character development.
I have seen many Dean fans happy with the Mark of Cain storyline. They cheered that he traded his Sam-nursing apron for a badass blade. I can't say I blame them, but for me that was not enough, maybe because I always valued character over story. I mourn the loss of the archetype Dean was, the traits that made him unique and captivating. His care for every living being, his wrongful self-belittlement begging to be refuted through love and understanding, and the righteousness that haloed him even among such holy entities as angels and priests. That was the majesty of Dean, and that is the loss I grieve. Because even if Dean-as-a-demon has the potential to have a great plot all to himself, it came at the cost of his most valuable relationships, and some of his most endearing, noble traits, turning him into something else long before his eyes turned black.
Sam:
Sam started the season in familiar turf: being afflicted by something paranormal and dying from it. In my years with the show I have seen Sam more in this state – dying or not – than as a healthy, self-aware human being. I sometimes wonder if the writers are handed a sheet labelled “acceptable Sam storylines” and told to create a combo of sick, possessed, angry at Dean, slowly dying, or prophesied to save the world soup using that sheet. What isn’t however on that list, and I’m suspecting never will be, is getting the POV.
To me, Sam being close to death made little sense in the beginning of the season, since I recall he stopped the trials last season exactly to prevent that outcome. I’m guessing the writers needed an excuse to have Gadreel possess him so they ignored that little fact and went ahead with dying Sam. They also made a point to show us how ready Sam was to die even though he hadn’t been through anything worse than what he had experienced many times before.
Sam stopped the trials because he wanted to live with Dean. There was no justification behind him wanting to check out after that except it was needed to rationalize his later anger and want for separation from Dean. The rift that formed as a result caused Dean to slip farther and faster under the influence of the Mark. In other words Sam’s character arc was used to serve Dean’s ultimate plot.
Once the Mark of Cain ball started rolling everything stopped with Sam. He no longer argued with Dean, no longer demanded a new definition of their relationship, no longer ran to his room slamming the door. His character was reset to his pre-season 8 persona, the loving, caring, slightly worried brother whose most severe reactions were along the line of warning Dean about taking the First Blade to places. We never got any information about how he felt about the Mark, or Dean’s affliction with it. We never saw him research it, or have a serious talk about it. He didn’t pursue his revenge on Gadreel. He didn’t defend himself when Dean started using him as a dart board for his pumped up anger. Sam became a blank slate as soon as Dean got his storyline.
Jared’s acting labored most of Sam’s presence on the show post MoC, when writers gave him little to do. Some argue the Sam-light script was fair considering so many previous ones focused on his journey, suffering and transformation. I'd say not quite, because in those stories Dean still had the POV and the role of the concerned brother. It felt as if the writers didn’t want to give Sam the chance to show his inner self, or his softer side, or whatever was going through his head while his brother went through his plot based changes.
Despite all that I liked Sam better in the second half of the season than the first, when he showed the occasional concern for Dean. Sadly the change that simultaneously happened in Dean ruined the pleasure because they still didn’t become loving brothers and the rift stayed, compounded by Dean’s fondness for aggression and authority. It spoiled the emotional impact of the brotherly moments in the finale because, in my mind, they felt out of context.
I want Sam to have the POV next season. Just as Dean going through a change and becoming the main protagonist was long overdue, so is seeing the story through Sam’s eyes. I doubt it will happen though. The writers will most likely follow Dean’s journey as a demon through Dean's eyes and have Sam react to it. Still I think Dean’s storyline would be served much better if they removed the view point from him for a change and made Sam more sympathetic and more active toward his plight.
Castiel:
Despite my grief over Dean, the character portrayal that hurt me the most this season was Castiel’s. What I saw of him on screen either bored me, saddened me, or made me want to smash my TV. It got to a point where I, for the first time, wished him off the show and into his own if possible, somewhere he would be treated with care and respect.
In the earlier seasons, two things always bothered me about Castiel. One was that no one seemed to care about his injuries or woes. He could suffer terrible wounds, get beaten to within an inch of his life, or have tablets dug out of his stomach yet Sam and Dean wouldn’t even ask how he was feeling. Where Dean razed heaven and earth if Sam got so much as a cut on his finger, he was completely oblivious to any damage – physical or emotional – Castiel suffered.
After discussing this with some fans I received a semi-satisfactory explanation. Castiel was a being with immense power who had less need for comfort than his human companions. He could heal in the blink of an eye and not suffer too much psychological damage since his Empire State building wavelength of celestial intent wasn’t as fragile as a human's mind. Being an angel gave him an edge over other characters and in turn made their concern for him seem like a bunch of kittens worrying about a mountain lion.
A similar rationalization was offered for my second concern: the fact that Castiel was barely on the show even when Misha was a regular. The explanation again was that his powers would act as a problem solving Swiss Army knife for the brothers and resolve all their challenges, creating endless plotholes if he was with them 24/7.
When Castiel became human in season 9 those arguments became void. There was no explanation why Dean shouldn’t care about him being on the street, without money or shelter, and hunted by angels. He was no longer powerful or self-sufficient. He no longer could play deus ex machina in the Winchester storyline either (that role was handed to Gadreel,) therefore I saw no reason for him getting constantly separated from them in such questionable ways as Gadreel demanding it.
This became the root of Castiel’s problem on the show and why so many felt frustrated with his story. His story didn’t add anything to the Winchester story. It was a tale of its own. Yet because it didn't receive equal time and attention as the other tale, it felt like a time waster instead of a part of the narrative.
What this set up did to Castiel, aside from keeping him away from the screen for most of the season, was to treat him like a tool, both by the writers and other characters. Since he wasn’t there with them at all times they had to have a reason to call him for him to show up. And since the writers refused to make that reason Sam and/or Dean’s concern for Castiel it always came down to what he could do for them, which extended to what he could do for the writers to advance their current script, effectively turning him into a servant of the plot.
I said I wished Castiel could be off the show and on his own show because I don’t see any character development or real story arc for him the way things are. He would be forever a tool, used by Sam and Dean whenever they need him, and discarded after they are done, regardless of his state of being. His challenges – be it him becoming human, losing his grace, or struggling in life threatening situations in his divorced storyline – would be of no concern to them and hence of no concern to the audience. If he had his own show and functioned as a fully realized protagonist of the main storyline then the other characters would value his presence beyond just a weird dude with an army of angels. The writers would care about him, might allow him to win for once, or have him make an honest friend. Real people (not a horde of zombie angels) might look up to him and talk about him like a valued player whose health and feelings mattered beyond what he did for the plot.
Crowley:
Crowley got the same deal as Castiel, except he got to stay in the bunker. Most of the time he was stashed away until the Winchesters/the script needed him. He got a more active role toward the end of the season but the constant plot servitude he suffered made him as unbalanced as his angel counterpart.
That seemed to be Crowley’s deal from the beginning. He would play the reluctant ally/ sly businessman one season, then the bloodthirsty tyrant the next. This season he got an extra storyline in his human blood addiction that was supposed to smooth him out. Unfortunately, like most storylines this year, that idea was put on the back burner indefinitely so I couldn’t tell where in his humanity attaining arc he was at any point. Some take his concern for his son as a sign of getting closer to becoming human, but we saw him release Dean from the panic room and lead him to his death and subsequent transformation into a demon, as if that was his plan all along. Where was his half baked humanity midst all that? Will it come back next season? What difference did it make this season?
Gadreel
Gadreel’s story was similar to Sam’s in that he played a role in the first half of the season, then flipped to another one with barely a transition in the second half. We saw some doubt and hesitation in the middle, but it wasn’t vivid enough to justify the devoted ally he became at the end of the mytharc compared to the controlling, spiteful being he was when he possessed Sam.
The biggest problem with Gadreel is that he killed Kevin. Killing a major friend of the protagonists in cold blood is an unforgivable crime, especially since Gadreel didn’t have a personal excuse for it beyond Metatron telling him to do it. I couldn’t see any trauma or pain, need for revenge, grudge, or other psychological or emotional hang ups that would drive him to kill Kevin, hence I couldn’t sympathize with him on any level. Disregarding the fact that he was a useful comrade in defeating Metatron I saw no fault in Dean trying to gut him when he showed up in the bunker. I’m not even sure we were supposed to feel sorry for him or think justice was served, because so little time was spent on his development.
Metatron
I already talked enough about Metatron in my weekly reviews, how he was annoying, witless, humorless, and an overall awful villain. Since then I read another fan’s analysis about how he was a chess player type villain instead of an aggressive one and that made me think. Though there’s some truth in that assessment, Metatron's flaw is that the writers tried too much with him. They might have planned to make him a Moriarty type villain, but they also made him pathetic. A cursory observation of scheming villains shows that most of them are calm, collected and confident characters. One has to be that way in order to play a game. Metatron’s desperation to be worshiped and loved ran counter against his calculating antagonist persona.
This doesn’t mean there are no pathetic conniving characters in stories. They do exist, but they are usually secondary villains or side characters who throw road blocks in the protagonist’s path, instead of being the final boss of their game. An example is Lord Varys from the Game of Thrones series. He isn’t even pathetic like Metatron, just small fry. A pitiful, unconfident weasel doesn’t provide enough danger and malice to play major bad guy for two seasons.
Abaddon
“Abaddon was wasted,” is the most common criticism of the character. What that criticism misses though is that she wasn’t developed enough to be wasted. I’d go as far as to say she wasn’t even a character.
Abaddon’s vessel Josie was an interesting woman. In the few glimpses we had of her we got the intimations of a fully developed character. She was faithful to her cause, devoted to the Men of Letters, and had feelings for Henry Winchester to the point of sacrificing herself for him.
Abaddon the Knight of Hell unfortunately had little of that. She only showed one trait and that was being crazy evil. We never got a back story for why she was so crazy or evil and had to rely on the idea that Knights of Hell were generally like that. That reduced Abaddon from a character to a concept. She wasn’t a threat because of who she was, she was one rather because of what she was.
Had they given us more information about her inner thoughts and feelings, or provided a semblance of an arc for her, this may not have been the case. As it was, we didn’t get to see much evidence of her evil nature either. We had to rely on the testimony of a red-shirt demon nun whose truthfulness was in question. We watched Abaddon kill Henry and the Men of Letters last season. But as far as season 9 went there was little action or personality development to expand Abaddon beyond anything more than a being like the Eye Of Sauron from Lord of the Rings.
Cain
I didn’t pay Cain much attention when I reviewed the only episode he appeared in. I complained about too much exposition, but for the most part I considered him a one-off character. Now that I know the Mark of Cain was made the main story arc of the season I wished there was more of him on screen. The writers truly needed to develop and present him better since Dean, the main player of the final arc, was supposed to parallel his storyline. The full effect of such a parallel gets lost when most of the first narrative – the one the present one is supposed to emulate – is told in dialogue in the span of just one episode. Had the writers thought this through (i.e. had they planned the MoC storyline from the beginning and not as something they threw at the audience to see if it would stick) they could have showed Cain much earlier iand let his story sink in and resonate with us for better impact at the end.
I plan on writing a second article about the many plots of season 9. I am sure more discussion on characters will come up in that one. This analysis is hence far from over. Again I want to stress that these are only my ideas and not the fandom’s collective opinion. I am aware that most of what I say here carries a negative pitch but this is the Gripe Review. By nature it leans more toward the negative than the positive, along with the fact that I sincerely found little good in my favorite characters this season. As far as character portrayals went this was the lowest point for me in the entire history of the show.
You are more than welcome to agree or disagree, and I encourage you to voice your opinion in the comment section. I look forward to your arguments and hope some of them change my outlook of the show so I don't run the risk of quitting it next season.
Tessa
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I've only read the sections about Sam and Dean (pushed for time and not hugely invested in any of the others) but just wanted to say that I agree with a lot of what you said.
ReplyDeleteWe differ I think (correct me if I'm wrong) in our views of the brothers bond pre s8 which you saw as one-sided/unhealthy, whereas I believe it has always been their greatest strength and was a positive thing. However, we do largely agree about the damage done to the characters of Sam and Dean and the very poor way the relationship has been depicted and (mis)used entirely to create plotlines since JC took over. It started with the idiotically ooc decision to have Sam not look for Dean and (apart from the latter half of s8) has gone downhill from there. Your analysis of the stupidity of the bro conflict this season (as a not very credible excuse for Dean to take on the MoC no questions asked), and the problems caused by the complete lack of Sam pov are spot on.
Primarily we agree on the huge importance of good and consistent characterisation to good writing. For me it is, pretty much, everything. I'll forgive no end of daft motw eps, lame villains or poorly paced myth arcs if I can see the REAL Sam and Dean, and the REAL brotherly bond on my screen.
I have lost all faith in the writing team under JC. I am dreading rather than looking forward to s10. I've learned by bitter experience that if there are a number of ways for a story to go JC will pick the one that does the most damage to Sam's character and to the brothers bond. So I'm braced for a whole season of demon Dean. I'm at the stage now that if demon Dean drags on for more than and ep or 2 I'm done!
Metatron is indeed a chess player. He is pathetic, and that is because he is a sociopath rather than a psychopath. Psychopaths are charming and likable like Ted Bundy who lure girls to their car with an arm sling. Sociopaths instinctively make your skin crawl just by sitting next to you.
ReplyDeleteIf you look at cult leaders, their followers will give away their homes and money to their leaders and even have sex with them for whatever feel-good sensations their leaders offer them. Jim Jones persuaded his followers to die for him. Metatron has no such allure. His followers were attracted by promises of power and return to the home to which they were already entitled. If he had the appeal of a psychopath, they would be enchanted by him, not his promises, though the promises help.
I wish you'd made note just what a complete waste most of the returning and new guest stars where, but I understand sticking to the main players. I feel like a lot of those characters (even old ones like Jody who out of the bunch was the best, Garth, Charlie, etc.) was the writers going to TV tropes and writing a character based on the article they read that day. Long past are the days of season one where even the "victims" of the week had more personality that our two main villains this season.
ReplyDeleteExcellent article, thanks.
ReplyDeleteDean: I mostly disagree, except the part of him abandoning his morals and sacrificing the world for Sam, which is sth that was more prominent in S8 than S9.
Sam: Completely agreed.
Cas: Agreed. Of course he had character development (more compassionate, not getting power-corrupted,...), but like you I always felt saddened by how his human friends, esp. Dean, are unconcerned about his well-being. Kicking him out of the bunker was the most outrageous and cruel thing, even for Carver's Dean who's all about Sam, it was OOC. I wish we could see Dean shows the same devotion Cas has for him. I believe in two-sided relationship (it also goes for Dean&Sam).
Gadreel: I think he was too crushed to have a stable mindset. What I got was he always wanted to do good, he got tricked by Met but went back to his own road. What I don't understand is how Sam suddenly got that trusting w/ him! (I know, plot calls!!!)
Metatron: He was a good and unique villain, but in small dosage.
Abaddon: Agreed. She was never meant to be a big villain. She was defeated once w/o so much hassle. She started a promising story in 9x02, which never developed. Her death was anticlimactic too.
Cain: Agreed, aside from the fact he was such an awesome character, we needed to know him better for the sake of enriching the plot (if the writers knew what they were going to do!).
Exactly. Cult leaders and sociopaths are charismatic. Their allure is the larger than life way they speak to those followers that gets them to do what they want. Neither Castiel, nor Metatron had such charisma this season, so it was an infinite mystery to me why they, and not some other angel, managed to attract all those followers. Promises are only good if you could convince your flock you could keep them. Metatron's insecure bearing and nonesense speeches never gave me such an impression.
ReplyDeleteExcellent article, thanks.
ReplyDeleteDean: I mostly disagree, except the part of him abandoning his morals and sacrificing the world for Sam, which is sth that was more prominent in S8 than S9.
Sam: Completely agreed.
Cas: Agreed. Of course he had character development (more compassionate, not getting power-corrupted,...), but like you I always felt saddened by how his human friends, esp. Dean, are unconcerned about his well-being. Kicking him out of the bunker was the most outrageous and cruel thing, even for Carver's Dean who's all about Sam, it was OOC. I wish we could see Dean shows the same devotion Cas has for him. I believe in two-sided relationship (it also goes for Dean&Sam).
Gadreel: I think he was too crushed to have a stable mindset. What I got was he always wanted to do good, he got tricked by Met but went back to his own road. What I don't understand is how Sam suddenly got that trusting w/ him! (I know, plot calls!!!)
Metatron: He was a good and unique villain, but in small dosage.
Abaddon: Agreed. She was never meant to be a big villain. She was defeated once w/o so much hassle. She started a promising story in 9x02, which never developed. Her death was anticlimactic too.
Cain: Agreed, aside from the fact he was such an awesome character, we needed to know
him better for the sake of enriching the plot (if the writers knew what they were going to do!).
Thanks for the comment. It's interesting to see we agree on so much considering the difference in opinion you mentioned in your post. Goes to show how off Carver has been in his handling of pretty much everything this season.
ReplyDeleteI'm a big fan of the D/C relationship and I can say this word for word for Castiel and that bond:
I've learned by bitter experience that if there are a number of ways for a story to go JC will pick the one that does the most damage to Sam's character and to the brothers bond.
I Carver had ruined the D/C connection but did right by the brotherly bond I would have forgiven him. I would have been sad but accepted that at least part of the show was saved, might have even turned to that part as compensation. But he didn't even do that. So I'm left with nothing. No Sam and Dean, no Dean and Cas, nor Sam and Cas. They are all in their own personal bubbles now, quite an achievement for a show runner who runs a show so heavily reliant on its relationships.
It must have been desperation. The other factions had died off, which left Metatron and Castiel. Tell me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Metatron the only one promising to return them to Heaven? It was nonsensical that anybody would follow Castiel after all the angels he killed, and I am a true blue Cas lover. The angels seemed to know about Cas' part in the fall, but did they know about Metatron's?
ReplyDeleteLol, I had plans to do that. And also to write about how caricaturish the bit characters in the Monster of the Week episodes were. But this article got way too long and I got way too tired and ran out of time. So I stuck to the main players.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment and for adding to the ideas.
Where was his half baked humanity midst all that?“
ReplyDeleteIt seems like Crowley thinks that his existence is more fun than Dean working one case after another with his little brother, eating burgers and hitting on waitresses. It didn’t seem like he wanted to change Dean out of spite.
“Listen to me, Dean Winchester, what you're feeling right now -- it's not death. It's life -- a new kind of life. Open your eyes, Dean. See what I see. Feel what I feel. And let's go take a howl at that moon.”
To me the most intriguing part about Crowley was his relationship with Sam because there were small little moments when I felt that Crowley was being sincere. I was curious to find out what Crowley wanted from Sam. Was he after Sam’s blood? He was working really hard to get on Sam’s good side in “Blade Runners”. I don’t see much point in Crowley going as far as insisting that he and Sam are bonded etc. if his endgame was always to get Dean to be his “BFF” because Crowley doesn’t need Sam’s approval for that.
I wish the dynamic between Sam and Crowley had been developed further. Now it seems that season 10 will be more about Crowley and Dean. I also wanted to see Crowley take advantage of hearing the brothers bare their souls to each other at the church.
You know things are bad in the writing department when your villains are sitting the heroes down to tell them all their big "evil" plans (not that Metatron and Abaddon weren't guilty of that too). Exposition has been in an all time low this season.
ReplyDeletePretty much the entire thing...I disagree with it. Heavily.
ReplyDeleteSam not having the POV ? I think you pretty much missed 70% of the season with Sams angel struggle there.
This was the first season Dean had more focus and suddenly Sam fanatics are jumping on it.
Fantastic Sam-view though
and Cas off the show ? Wonderfull, just wonderfull
I know the writer of this article from another site and she is by no means a huge Sam fan so you are barking up the wrong tree there. This article is about s9, so what has happened in previous seasons is pretty much irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the article that in this season the lack of Sam's pov, the poor treatment of his character (the real, in character, Sam would never have claimed to have wanted death in ep 1 or said the terrible things he said to Dean in The Purge, or....I could go on listing but we'd be here all night), the just plain wrong depiction of the brothers bond, and the not-at-all-believable rationale for Dean accepting supernatural powers ie the MoC, to get revenge without asking to see the small print (exactly what he criticised Sam for in s4) have all combined to create a poorly written, not credible plot that failed to generate much of an emotional resonance with many fans because it felt repetitive of previous stories and yet unconvincing.
I think if we each said how we want the show to go our visions would look very different. You know I don't care about the Dean/Cas relationship (although I like Cas), which you do, while I watch for Sam & Dean which you are less invested in. But the show is currently so poorly written it is not giving either of us a satisfying viewing experience.
ReplyDeleteIt's the third time I'm posting it, hope spoilertv delete the previous ones, or simply not bother to post them!
ReplyDeleteExcellent article, thanks.
Dean: I mostly disagree, except the part of him abandoning his morals and sacrificing the world for Sam, which is sth that was more prominent in S8 than S9.
Sam: Completely agreed, and plz a caring, kind and devoting brother POV, unlike S8&9!
Cas: He had character development (more compassionate, not getting power-corrupted, ...), but like you I always felt saddened by how his human friends, esp. Dean, are unconcerned about his well-being. Kicking him out of the bunker was the most outrageous and cruel thing, even for Carver's Dean who's all about Sam, it was OOC. I wish we could see Dean shows the same devotion Cas has for him. I believe in two-sided relationship (it also goes for Dean&Sam).
Crowley: I disagree, he had a steady role and character development.
Gadreel: I think he was too crushed to have a stable mindset. What I got was he always wanted to do good, he got tricked by Met but went back to his own road. What I don't understand is how Sam suddenly got that trusting w/ him! (I know, plot calls!!!)
Metatron: He was a good and unique villain, but in small dosage.
Abaddon: Agreed. She was never meant to be a big villain. She was defeated once w/o so much hassle. She started a promising story in 9x02, which never developed. Her death was anticlimactic too.
Cain: Agreed, aside from the fact he was such an awesome character, we needed to know him better for the sake of enriching the plot (if the writers knew what they were going to do!).
Sam not having the POV ? I think you pretty much missed 70% of the season with Sams angel struggle there.
ReplyDeleteI'm suspecting you confuse POV with being the center of the story. A character could be the center of a story and not have the POV. Having the POV means we see the story through that character's eyes, are privy to that character's thoughts, and experience the plot with their opinions and inner feelings. Sam's angel possession storyline was the exact opposite of that because not only did we not see the story through him, he wasn't even there half the time to even participate in it, just like when he was soulless, or possessed by Lucifer.
I am probably the farthest you could get from a Sam fanatic. If I were to choose a team it would be Castiel's. But I even check that hat at the door when I write these articles so I'd be able to writer things like "his story didn't contribute to the show," or "he is used as a tool." I was also one of the most avid supporters of Dean getting a mytharc. But I wasn't willing to sell him or Sam short just to get it. I wanted an engaging, carefully thought of storyline that gave him, Sam and Castiel opportunities to shine and develop. Do you think that's what we got in the MoC storyline?
and Cas off the show ? Wonderfull, just wonderfull
Wonderful as in you want him off the show or are you criticizing me for saying such a thing? If it's the former then having him on his own show gives people like you the option to not watch while people like me get to enjoy their favorite character. If it's the latter, again I have to point out that I'm his biggest fan. I just don't think the way he is being written is conducive to his character or the show.
On the part about Sam stopping the trials to save himself. He was still dieing and no one had healed previously correct? But still Sam could of been absent from this season, and I don't think anyone would have noticed at all.
ReplyDeleteLol, I kept replying to your post and it kept telling me the post wasn't active. Then I would refresh and the comment would be gone. I'm glad it was sorted out.
ReplyDeleteKicking him out of the bunker was the most outrageous and cruel thing, even for Carver's Dean who's all about Sam, it was OOC.
I think I more or less implied that in the review. That was the lowest point in the show for me too, along with them joking about April and her reaper who had just raped both Cas and her human vessel. I understand they did it to keep Cas off screen (some say to give J2M more time off while the other picks up the slack) but Dean could have easily hidden him in the bunker somewhere and kept him safe. He wasn't an angel so there was no way for Gadreel to find out, and like Crowley they could have dug him out whenever they needed him, plus it would have provided him with a much better storyline than working at a gas station with God knows what credentials and toward what purpose.
The deal last season, the way I understood it, was that if Sam finished he trials he'd die. That was the whole point behind Dean begging him to stop them and him agreeing. Carver said it multiple times himself, they chose each other over closing the gates of hell and trapping all demons. If Sam was really that hell bent on dying that would have been the perfect time. His death would have achieved something and rid the world of all demon-kind. To me it made no sense for them to not do that last season, then have to jump through so many hoops and be at odds with this season so that Dean could get what Sam had already given him in the church in Sacrifice, and be blamed for it.
ReplyDeleteIn Blade Runner Crowley WAS sucking up to Sam, but I thought it was because he knew that once Dean got The Blade Crowley himself was expendable. He "felt" that Dean was keeping him alive to bring out Abaddon but that Sam was SO unremittedly pro-killing Crowley and that Dean would do what Sam told him to do.
ReplyDeleteHe saw Dean "obey" Sam and drop the Blade after killing Magnus. (Of course most of the sucking up was before that point, but Crowley I think KNEW that Dean would kill whoever got in his way re The Blade OR threatened Sam.)
Personally I felt that Crowley spent most of the season trying to get on Dean's good side.
But I also think the Mark of Cain/First Blade arc was all a long-con on Dean. Dean said it best in Survival of the Fittest: Crowley will always bone you. And, yes, Dean: Crowley did.
Part of me thought his monologue at the end of Do You Believe in Miracles? was to get Dean into his camp (just what every King of Hell needs, his own Knight) more than actually being sorry that this had happened to Dean.
I like the actor very much, but today I am in full hate of the character.
But it was strange indeed to me that when Dean called Castiel (at least I think he did) when Gadreel killed Kevin and took off in Sam, Castiel was 1000% supportive.
ReplyDeleteDean apologized for the unceremonious kick-out, Castiel acted like he totally understood that Sam would do anything for Dean and he was A-OK with that. Not a moment of irritation about sleeping in the store-room of a Gas-N-Sip.
I really really like Dean/Cas as profound bond people (I know that means different things to different people but I totally believe that Castiel is a different species and human psychology does not correspond for him - he NEEDS someone to love since God isn't there and for now that is Dean - agape or eros, take your pick) and I think the show is splitting them up 'WAY too much to dampen the romance talk. Well, guess what, writers, you wrote what most people see as SOME kind of romance.
Maloose, I agree about Cain; I don't know if he WILL come back because Tim Omundson has a new series this fall, but I hope they get him for some MUCH needed explanation.
Yeah, I don't know WHY Dean didn't do that or at least tell Castiel WHY he had to go.
ReplyDeleteThat was the biggest scratch-my-head moment of the season.
Metatron had negative charisma. He was a crap**** (I don't want to give offense but I mean it).
ReplyDeleteOn the recently0departed Television Without Pity (much missed by me) his character thread was Metatron: Shithead. Perfect.
From what I have heard, and I really don't know if that is true) Carver believes he is going to "fix" the brother bond from being co-dependent.
ReplyDeleteI don't know how he can do that.
The way they were raised would create this claustrophic relationship as the only means to hunt and survive in the supernatural world. I try to see a different outcome and I canNOT make it work in my mind.
I literally cannot imagine a Sam or a Dean who would not do ANYTHING they know they can do (I mean, killing yourself to reach DEATH? was JUST as weird as selling your soul and I believe the Sam from Mystery Spot was the Sam who would exist if Dean died for good -- he'd search out anyone or anything that could/would bring Dean back).
This is what they ARE. How can you "fix" that?
A superb analysis and I agree with almost every word. I hope the writers see this and hang their heads in shame.
ReplyDeleteYou've identified every flaw character wise in S9 - and why I truly dislike it. I remain a hopeful fan of SPN, but it's leaking away.
The sire bond of Damon or Klaus in TVD was a great example of the cult leader persona - neither are psychopaths since they have *feelings* - but otherwise their followers are controlled by their charisma or fear...
ReplyDeletePlease give Castiel his own show, so that you and his other fans can watch it and I can avoid it (and I can stop fast-forwarding through all the angel scenes on SPN). Win-win situation.
ReplyDelete"This is what they ARE. How can you "fix" that?"
ReplyDeleteMore importantly, why would you want too?
If Sam and Dean were real people, were my friends, and they were - let's say - insurance salesmen or mechanics, I might be concerned about how co-dependent they are. However they are fictional, live in a world where there are monsters bent on world domination, are heroes constantly in danger and putting others safety before their own. They had a bizarrely isolated (from others outside their little family) upbringing where they were essentially raised in a foxhole during a lifelong battle. That, plus being brothers, created a hothouse atmosphere and forged an incredibly strong, close bond. Yes they are co dependent but IMO that has been a strength NOT weakness and certainly not something that needs 'fixing'. That JC - who wrote some of the best eps for the brothers; MS, PONR, AVSC - could so poorly understand the brothers characters and relationship has been a huge surprise and disappointment.
Yes, maybe he was just trying to see whether he could get Sam to lay off killing him so he would be able to control Dean better.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I felt that Crowley was sincere in 9.10 when he said, “You didn’t [kill Kevin], he did” and also a bit at the end of Blade Runners when he told Sam, “Sadly, I can't trust you, either.” It was of course manipulative in a sense that Crowley was putting it on Sam that he was taking the Blade away but I felt that there was also some truth to his words.
Amen, and if these same writers are writing for Sam and Dean then I could stop watching SPN and stick to the Castiel show. Win win indeed.
ReplyDeleteI simply cannot understand how writers at the network TV level can be so bad at their craft. Of
ReplyDeletecourse, characterization suffers the worst when they seem to not know even the basics of Writing 101 – the characters should ALWAYS drive the plot -- but everything else related to storytelling is piled on top of that – the story structure: no parameters (boundaries) within which the story is told. What is the MoC exactly? How does it work? How does it just magically make a demon? It took right up to the end of the season before we found out what Metatron wanted. I could go on. The plotting was awful, the pacing was awful, dialogue was often terrible, and that goes back to the lack f paying attention to characterization (Metatron was hiding away from humans, in isolation, for centuries, reading books, but in the finale, all of his pop culture references were movie references…or how about Dean caring or even knowing who Bernie Madoff is).
I was happy to finally have Dean be…what I thought anyway…a part of the story, and based on that last scene in the finale, I’m still not sure that the MoC isn’t Crowley’s story. Now that the writers turned Dean into Demon!Dean, I am very, very worried – actually dreading S10, instead of looking forward to it. I am afraid the whole Winchester story will be completely ruined in the coming season while the network tries to develop another series.
Dean has always been the one reliable character through which the audience viewed the show. Now
that he is a demon, he is no longer a reliable character or the moral center. That changes the landscape entirely. In fact, Crowley is now the only reliable character there is, because he keeps his word, is evil, admits it, and loves it. Sam has shifted between so many versions for years; mood swings and stomping off and never being consistent in his actions or feelings. Cas is a weak character that gets his feelings hurt when Dean gets horsey, besides having several different versions of him through the years, too. To put a support character, Crowley or Cas, as the POV character will tick me off. Whose show is this again? And what characters and actors made the show the flagship of the network? It wasn’t Cas and it wasn’t Crowley. Who is going to be the moral center? It can’t be Sam, because there is too much history of being otherwise for that character.
It can’t be Cas, because he is a weak character. And as a demon, it can’t be Dean. I’ll also say that I don’t think any of the writers even realize this problem yet.
I have nothing to base my suspicion on, but I think S10 will be used to develop Cas’ character in order to make him the lead in the spin-off the network is hoping to cash in on from Supernatural. I am basing that suspicion solely on the fact that the writers have no interest in either of the Winchester characters. The first spin-off attempt didn’t work, so I think they will go with putting a familiar face in on the next attempt. If not Cas, then we are going to get some young CW-type recurring several times next season and then moved over. As a viewer since the Pilot (never missed a live airing), I feel that I am being used by the network.
I now watch only to see JA perform, but if his character is trashed like Sam’s was with the Ruby storyline, I’ll give up on a show I have invested a decade in.
One other point regarding Sam. I absolutely had to have some explanation for his hateful words attacking Dean's very character foundation and his life's work, and that did not happen. His "I lied," just wasn't enough for me.
"His "I lied," just wasn't enough for me"
ReplyDeleteSame here. I have no idea what he was referring to here. I "assumed" it was simply the comment about not trying to save Dean but it seems like the author thought it was the whole Purge speech. I just can't buy that considering how much character assassination was directed at Dean then.
For Dean, I was extremely glad he finally got a sl but I didn't like the end of the finale and am very worried about the potential damage that can be done with this. Yes, it's time to shake things up a bit because the writing has become very stagnant but to make him into the one thing he hates and fears the most . . . Of course, the writers are probably just giving us a "be careful what you wish for" lesson.
Sam: Can't say much about him. For me, his character's been slowly degrading for years now. I just don't want another season of sick Sam or something's wrong with Sam because I really can't care much after all the times they've gone there. Would I like to see a sympathetic, concerned brotherly Sam? Sure, but I was also hoping for that most of the second half of this season after he found out about the Mark. A few concerned glances here and there doesn't really do it for me. Neither does an occasional comment here in there about "Dean seems different" then moving on to the next plot, hunt, or whatever. I don't know that they can write it believable for me anymore.
Cas: I loved season 4 and 5 Cas and wish that we could get him back. I also loved the D/C profound bond but it doesn't look like we will get that back either. It makes me very sad.
Crowley: is about the only one who seemed to stay in character.
Abaddon was a waste to me. She had so much more potential.
Metatron made me want to barf or break the TV.
Gadreel, I really liked especially in the end. I do think he redeemed himself but I hate that he died. At this point, he's the most interesting angel out of all of them and it really hurts me to say that because I really loved Cas.
Like a poster above, I mainly watch the show for JA now. Oh, and I'm clinically insane because I keep expecting to see the show and characters I loved in spite of the repeated not so good eps recently.
Then don't watch it im looking forward to demon dean and Sam is a big baby he 30 really Azazel is dead and Lucifer is locked away he dosn't need to be looked after any more that's my look at it, there are many other shows you can watch not being rude just saying!
ReplyDeleteWay too much talk and not enough action from the evil doers. Meanwhile Sam, Dean and Castiel... we have no clue what's going on in their heads.
ReplyDeleteThis is right on so many levels and pretty much describes everyrhing I've felt about this season. Can't wait to read your next one.
ReplyDeleteAnd let's hope they fix Sam next season too (and everything else. But Sam's lack of POV is the thing that annoys me more than anything)
Pity me Abaddon - she was very hot.
ReplyDeleteTheresa, there is supposed to be some theme for Dean as the Righteous Man: his judgment is absolute. 'WAY back in Season 1, Dean promised Meg that if a demon killed his dad he would go to hell and kill "everyone of you sons-of-bitches." Now that Dean is Marked and Bladed he could go to Hell and kill every single demon down there. It would be the literal equivalent of closing the Gates of Hell if no demons could come to earth and do evil or seduce humans to sell their soul.
ReplyDeleteI THINK show mythology has it that humans turn into demons in hell just by the interaction with the place. Being in hell makes you a demon, eventually. But it would take a hellalong time for a soul to be transformed without the torture and all (which I am sure Abaddon reinstituted after Crowley went to the long queues for mental rather than physical torture).
I would love to know or hear that Dean killed all demons. And I would like it if he found Meg in hell, that Crowley had never killed her, just stabbed her.
I hope hope hope that Dean will start Season 10 by taking the Blade and killing every demon.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that when they go into the meta of Dean's character as The Righteous Man it is that his judgment is absolute, and in Season 1 he told Meg that if a demon killed his father he would go to hell and kill every son-of-a-bitch demon down there. Now that he has the Mark and the Blade he can do just that.
From what I gather of the show mythology being in hell itself changes the souls of the unjustified into demons eventually. The tortures just speed up the process. Abaddon I betcha reinstituted the physical tortures that Crowley ceased (remember he put in psychological torture like endless lines) to ramp up demon-processing. No demons, there will still be souls that eventually turn into demons but that could take a long time.
Rather than closing the Gates of Hell, harrowing all the demons in hell would do the trick for a while anyway.
Crowley would have a kingdom with no citizenry.
I have alway been the type of fan that accepts that while stories are written for me to enjoy that they are ultimately the writes stories. I don't always think it's a good thing for the writers to abandon the stories they want to tell because of fanmail. Granted there are times (lots) when a story isn't working, but that's different than making changes purely to appease fans. (top on the list for me is character hookups...especially of professionals working together...when its not part of the story's initial design.)
ReplyDeleteAll of that said changing the fundamental building blocks of a character is something that should never never never happen - unless, the character isn't working for one reason or another. That wasn't the case here; especially with the brothers. I strongly agree with you that it's usually a sign of lazy writing. If you decide to tell a specific story but you have to make your character behave in an unnatural way...then you need to work a little harder and find the path to your goal that is in character. If it doesn't exist...the story needs to be rethought.
My biggest issue with Sam this season was his anger at Dean..and the rift. I couldn't find the sense in it. I literally fast forward through all of their bickering scenes. A first for me with this series. I agree with a lot of your points. Good article.
The last vestiges of that dream disappeared in season 9, with the manipulation of the brotherly bond in the earlier parts, and the complete trashing of the Dean and Castiel relationship (which even Mr. Ackles confessed to) followed by the Mark of Cain insta-twist.
ReplyDeleteI don't remember Jensen ever "confessing" to anything about Dean and Cas. He said, jokingly (? I don't know) that he was glad they hadn't spent that much time together. He was mostly talking about fan interpretation of their relationship. He then praised their relationship.
As you may know, I was never a fan of Dean’s extreme obsession with Sam in the later seasons, when his maxim changed from “everyone’s valuable except me,” to “everyone’s expendable except Sam.” Carver took that to new heights with Dean’s treatment of Benny, Gadreel, and Castiel. He changed Dean from selfless hero to single minded zealot. It went so far even Sam got turned off by it. I was willing to stay with the story in hopes that this was all part of Dean’s journey from a state of living only as a parent to Sam to realizing childhood was over and the need babysit his little brother was long gone.
I'm confused by this. Dean treated Gadreel perfectly fine until Gadreel murdered a friend right before Dean's eyes.
Dean generally treated Cas fine as well. When influenced by the mark, he was snappish toward him and brought up some old hurts that had never healed. The rest of the season he was fine with Cas. He threw him out of the bunker, but that was for Sam. Dean has chosen Sam over everyone from the beginnings of the show, so Carver has little to do with that idea.
What this set up did to Castiel, aside from keeping him away from the screen for most of the season, was to treat him like a tool, both by the writers and other characters. Since he wasn’t there with them at all times they had to have a reason to call him for him to show up. And since the writers refused to make that reason Sam and/or Dean’s concern for Castiel it always came down to what he could do for them, which extended to what he could do for the writers to advance their current script, effectively turning him into a servant of the plot.
This sounds far more like season 6 to me.
Going through some of the material this season:
- episode 1 had Cas calling Dean to check in with him. Dean wanted nothing from him other than for him to join them at the bunker. Dean was very concerned for Cas.
- episode 3 had Dean and Sam going to find Cas. He only left because Dean knew Sam would die otherwise. Dean was very concerned for Cas. So was Sam.
- episode 6 had Cas again calling Dean to talk to him about a case. Dean wanted Cas to help him on the case (the case Cas told him about), but that was it. No great need of Cas. No using him as a tool. Dean was very concerned about him.
- episode 9 had Cas running into Dean and Sam accidentally. They needed nothing from him. Yet again Cas called Dean at the end. Sam and Dean were concerned about him.
- episode 10 had Dean calling Cas, when he was at an all time low after what happened to Kevin and Sam. If that counts as Cas being a "tool," then so be it, I guess.
- episode 11 had Cas choosing to stay with Sam and help him, then leaving.
- episode 14 had Cas totally on his own
- episode 18 had, although I can't remember 100%, Cas contacting Sam and Dean because they had a mutual problem
- episode 20 had Cas contacting Sam and Dean about their mutual problem
- episode 21 had Sam and Dean trying to help Cas (interrogating an angel for him)
- episode 22 had Sam and Dean trying to help Cas.
- episode 23 had...Sam and Dean trying to help Cas.
If the show was trying to write it as Cas being a tool for Dean and Sam, I'd say they did a poor job.
Dean has chosen Sam over everyone from the beginnings of the show, so Carver has little to do with that idea.
ReplyDeleteExactly and I don’t think Cas feels the need to come between that. He has many times put a mission before Dean. I think Cas could’ve been justified in being more upset about how Dean had said that Cas couldn’t stay at the bunker but I think it reflected well on his character that he didn’t hold grudges. Cas knows that Sam’s life had been on the line. Thus Dean couldn’t take any chances. Dean had already made a huge decision when he tricked Sam into letting an angel possess him. If Dean had tried to play games with Gadreel and let Cas stay in secret etc., I think it would have been a very dubious storyline for the character. Either Dean is totally committed to Sam staying alive (even if it means Sam has to be possessed) or he agrees that Sam going out peacefully is the best that a hunter could hope for.
I'm confused by this. Dean treated Gadreel perfectly fine until Gadreel murdered a friend right before Dean's eyes.
ReplyDeleteWith Gadreel I meant the opposite, as in he let Gad walk all over him. I already said I approved of Dean attacking Gadreel at the end.
Dean has chosen Sam over everyone from the beginnings of the show, so Carver has little to do with that idea.Not quite. He didn't sacrifice the virgin in Jus in Bello, even though it meant putting Sam in danger. And he didn't just hand Anna over to the angels when they threatened Sam. He acted smart and found an alternative plan. The problem with Carver is that he is applying the same over simplification on Dean's character that you are. That if it's for Sam Dean would have no wit or moral compass and would sacrifice everyone and everything without a second thought. That's a mighty low opinion of a protagonist. Dean could still do "everything" for Sam and be a decent human being by using his brain. It's not that hard to come up with plots that support that.
As for the list, it's all interpretation. I, or another fan, could make the same list and come up with a completely different interpretation that supports the idea of Cas being a tool. But it's unnecessary because what I meant by tool was more a tool for the ongoing plot rather than Sam and Dean, even though that role usually ends up making him a tool for them, as well as an occasional tool for the bad guys as we saw with Metatron last season.
That seemed to be Crowley’s deal from the beginning. He would play the reluctant ally/ sly businessman one season, then the bloodthirsty tyrant the next. This season he got an extra storyline in his human blood addiction that was supposed to smooth him out. Unfortunately, like most storylines this year, that idea was put on the back burner indefinitely so I couldn’t tell where in his humanity attaining arc he was at any point. Some take his concern for his son as a sign of getting closer to becoming human, but we saw him release Dean from the panic room and lead him to his death and subsequent transformation into a demon, as if that was his plan all along. Where was his half baked humanity midst all that? Will it come back next season? What difference did it make this season?
ReplyDeleteI see your point, but I don't think "humanity" was ever intended to mean "good." When Crowley was human, he was a greedy, abusive monster. Humanity meant emotions. Crowley's relationship with Dean was very different before he got his humanity. He always avoided Dean other than as a means to an end, because he knew Dean was dangerous. This season, he went out of his way to win Dean to his side, and a large part of this is that he wants Dean as some sort of companion, not just a tool (Dean is the worst type of person to keep around to use for your agenda [and the Mark of Cain is obviously a big part of Crowley's agenda], because he tends to rebel and question).
I do agree with you about Gadreel and Abaddon. I wanted to care about Gadreel, but we barely saw him in the back half of the season.
Not quite. He didn't sacrifice the virgin in Jus in Bello, even though it meant putting Sam in danger. And he didn't just hand Anna over to the angels when they threatened Sam. He acted smart and found an alternative plan. The problem with Carver is that he is applying the same over simplification on Dean's character that you are. That if it's for Sam Dean would have no wit or moral compass and would sacrifice everyone and everything without a second thought. That's a mighty low opinion of a protagonist. Dean could still do "everything" for Sam and be a decent human being by using his brain. It's not that hard to come up with plots that support that.
ReplyDeleteI see your point, but Dean has also put other people over Sam this season. Gadreel told him if he brought Charlie back to life, he would be weakened and he would be less able to heal Sam. Dean still chose to put Charlie first. As a result, Sam and Dean nearly died. Yet the risk was worth it in his mind.
To me the show has always sent out mixed messages about whether Dean should put other people first. Gamble's script had Ruby as the righteous voice damning Dean for not sacrificing the virgin. Dean was, in the show's eyes, wrong and weak in that moment. After that Dean began to care less about "saving people", with a steady decline through each passing season.
Dean said it himself - "you're my weak spot." He started the apocalypse and helped cause countless deaths because of his need for Sam to be alive. I don't think it takes away from his heroism, it just shows some of his weakness. I'm mostly glad the show is finally addressing it instead of giving it a cuddle. I just hope they know where they're going.
As for the list, it's all interpretation. I, or another fan, could make the same list and come up with a completely different interpretation that supports the idea of Cas being a tool. But it's unnecessary because what I meant by tool was more a tool for the ongoing plot rather than Sam and Dean, even though that role usually ends up making him a tool for them, as well as an occasional tool for the bad guys as we saw with Metatron last season.
I guess from my POV, Cas was fairly free of plot device status this season. Contrasted to last season, where he lost any sense he had to go around with Metatron stalking and killing people, or season 7, where he only existed to heal Sam/kill Dick, or season 6, where he only showed up to be berated for not helping more and then became the big villain, I thought he was much more actively involved in the material and in making decisions on his own terms.
I didn't mean to be so picky, it's just that as much as some of Cas' story this season disgusted me (especially episode 3), I felt like they got this part right.
The show does seem to have a foggy idea about what humanity really means. For Cas it meant being attracted to random females and low wage jobs. For Crowley..., I guess being less of a sadistic a-hole. I still don't see how it affected anything on the show since he was even more marginalized than Cas or Gadreel, and only showed up at the end to get Dean from point A to point B and give a final Muhaha speech to explain his transformation.
ReplyDeleteI still don't see how it affected anything on the show since he was even more marginalized than Cas or Gadreel
ReplyDeleteTo me they had Crowley in a pretty central role compared to most of his past material. He was a little marginalized in the first half (although season 8 had damaged the character enough that he needed the downtime, I think), then he helped get Sam back in exchange for freedom, and then we saw the battle for Hell through his eyes and we saw him slowly leading Dean down the dark path.
I don't feel like the show needs Crowley, and I wish they'd write him out, but in terms of story material I thought this was one of his better seasons.
I have nothing to base my suspicion on, but I think S10 will be used to develop Cas’ character in order to make him the lead in the spin-off the network is hoping to cash in on from Supernatural. I am basing that suspicion solely on the fact that the writers have no interest in either of the Winchester characters. The first spin-off attempt didn’t work, so I think they will go with putting a familiar face in on the next attempt. If not Cas, then we are going to get some young CW-type recurring several times next season and then moved over. As a viewer since the Pilot (never missed a live airing), I feel that I am being used by the network.
ReplyDeleteIn January 2013 Mark Pedowitz specifically said no SPN characters could carry a spinoff (this was when he was asked about a Cas spinoff).
The CW now says they would consider a spinoff with existing characters, but I have a hard time believing the CW, of all networks, would center a spinoff on a 40-year old actor.
People have been saying characters are just there for spinoff reasons for so long now that it's tough for me to react. I remember when some fans kept saying we should hate Krissy because she was just there for a spinoff. Apparently not.
Dean has always been the one reliable character through which the audience viewed the show. Now that he is a demon, he is no longer a reliable character or the moral center. That changes the landscape entirely.
In that sense I think it needed to be changed. The show lost much of its heart and moral compass in the apocalypse seasons and Dean's role has mostly been reacting to the people around him falling apart. I don't think another scene where a loved one beats him up so he can bring them back would have worked.
I'm wary too, don't get me wrong, but I feel like they're breaking Dean down in a way he's needed as a character for some years now. I think they are going to rebuild him too. I don't see him being in any villainous role for long at all.
You know things are bad in the writing department when your villains are sitting the heroes down to tell them all their big "evil" plans
ReplyDeleteThe show has always done this. Azazel did this over and over.
To me Metatron was never presented as a cult leader per se. Angels only worked with him when they had no other options. That's why he went to go manipulate homeless people who were scared and eager for any support.
ReplyDeleteAnd a clumsy one which would satisfy neither. Guess we already figured out which one Carver chose.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if we can judge merit of a story on fan response. I've seen about 95% fan complaints for every season since season 3. Fans are in a hivemind. Some stuff from Carver has worked, some has been atrocious, but I don't base that on fan complaints.
I agree with parts of what you said. The boys' relationship was badly damaged this season. Much of what you had to say was true, but, in my opinion, not all of it. I don't believe the boys' relationship was totally lost or stumbling until season 9.
ReplyDeleteWhat I do disagree with wholeheartedly is giving up on the show ever. I won't quit following it.
Maybe Colllins could carry a show as a lead, but I personally don't think so. I would expect, if Collins is moved to a spin-off, he would be surrounded by CW types in an ensemble case.
ReplyDeleteThere is a difference between reacting to the people around him, having a part in the storyline, and tearing a character down to build him back up. I have no faith that this group of writers have the ability to bring someone back, using Sam's character as an example.
I don't know exactly what you mean by the show losing much of its heart and moral compass in the apocalypse, but I don't think I agree with that. I think the apocalypse story, and specifically the Ruby 2 storyline, is what started destroying Sam's character, and for me, he has never come back from that. I do wish they would do something for Sam's character...like decide what kind of a character they want him to be...but I don't want them ruining Dean's character to build Sam back up, and that I am very much afraid of that under the current direction and writing team. They seem to only be capable of poaching previous stories.
If Cas not being allowed to stay at the bunker was a deal breaker to Dean when tricking Sam into letting an angel possess him wasn’t, it wouldn’t have been good for Dean as a character at all.
ReplyDeleteI think the possession had to be shown as Dean taking an extreme measure to save Sam. He found out that Gadreel would leave if Cas stayed but Sam was not well enough to survive on his own. If Dean still had let Cas stay, it would have made Dean seem pretty callous about what he had done to Sam. When possession is in the picture, there really is no room for trying to have your cake and eating it, too. In essence Dean would have attempted just that if he had hidden Cas despite the direct threat that posed for Sam’s life. Cas was not facing such certain death as Sam.
Gadreel finding out that Cas is still at the bunker would result in Gadreel leaving as far as Dean knew. Thus Sam would end up being in pain and dying yet again and not even at a hospital where people would make his last moments as comfortable for him as possible. Originally Sam could’ve left with Death by his own choice and feeling good about it. Dean would be taking all that away from Sam and gambling it so his friend could stay at the bunker. That would harm what it means for Sam and Dean to be brothers.
That's what I said in my post. I like the character more for potential than realization, and I like the actor.
ReplyDeleteMaybe Colllins could carry a show as a lead, but I personally don't think so. I would expect, if Collins is moved to a spin-off, he would be surrounded by CW types in an ensemble case.
ReplyDeleteMost CW shows have actors who either are young or can play young (or try to pretend, like Ian Somerhalder). Collins can't really do that. He would at best be in a mentor role. I can't see the CW going for that.
There is a difference between reacting to the people around him, having a part in the storyline, and tearing a character down to build him back up. I have no faith that this group of writers have the ability to bring someone back, using Sam's character as an example.
I agree, but I feel like so far the show has managed to break Dean down without destroying who he is. I think there's a chance that can continue. If I compare the writing for this story to the writing for Sam's demon blood story, I feel like it's night and day. Dean has a POV and they didn't have him go way over the line in order to shock viewers with a "dark" arc, as they did with Sam in late season 4. They still could, I just don't think they have yet.
I don't know exactly what you mean by the show losing much of its heart and moral compass in the apocalypse, but I don't think I agree with that
Everything became so bleak. Saving people became a bad thing, a burden, a naive mistake (Jus in Belo). The people around them were just there to die. There was no good or bad in the apocalypse stakes. We were supposed to root for the brotherly bond after the show had taken out its heart and just left us with, "They can't have anybody else, so hey, they have each other," as if that's something to be happy about. They thought Lucifer beating Dean near-death, Sam killing himself, etc. was some type of meaningful ending for the plot. I'll never understand it, especially all the pointless added angst of things like John being a deadbeat while Mary was still alive.
I agree with you that they have not yet taken Dean too far, but it is my worry that the writers will. For that reason, I remain very hesitant about the Demon!Dean storyline. IMO, they went so far dark with Sam's character with the Ruby 2 story, that they ruined his character. I got no satisfaction from Swan Song -- almost quit the show at that point, in fact. I was so hoping that in S6, we would get a better view of Sam, but that did not happen. I think now that the writers have to decide what to do with Sam's character; what they want him to be, and quit giving us all these different versions that (for me) put Sam in an unredeemable spot almost.
ReplyDeleteI also think the "brother bond" was something made up in fandom and the writers took it up until now it's the whole focal point of the show. Personally, I have never seen the unbreakable brother bond in the show, but I have seen two brothers, raised in isolation from both civilians and hunters, having to depend solely on each other.
Agree totally with your last paragraph. Again for me, the show has made hunting a bad thing to do. The writers have gone to the extreme to show that hunting only results in loss, disappointment, and death. The quest only results in something worse happening. How are viewers supposed to root for the 'heroes,' instead of wonder why they just don't quit. The personal stakes for the Winchesters simply is not there, especially in this last season where Cas handled the big angel mytharc alone.
The point of all of this is that there is a serious problem in the writers' room. I don't even believe there is a writers' room per se. I think each writer goes to their office and dream up some story to tell for the episode they are assigned, which results in lack of story structure, plotting, pacing, and most of all...characterization. There is never any excuse that the two leads in this show are constantly depicted out of character (Sam not looking for Dean and his personal attack on Dean this season). The viewers were given no satisfactory reasons for either of those, and that is inexcusable for writers at the TV network level.
Thanks for the comment. I fully understand not wanting to give up on the show. I don't want that either. This show gave me some of my best remembered moments on TV. Giving up on it would be like giving up on childhood memories. But there's also the risk of spoiling those memories. If it ever gets to a point where I see continuing with the show might hurt my past experience and love for it I might consider quitting to preserve the image of it imprinted in my mind.
ReplyDeleteIf Dean still had let Cas stay, it would have made Dean seem pretty callous about what he had done to Sam.
ReplyDeleteThere's a difference. What Dean did to Sam was for Sam. A callous act is slightly more forgivable if the person being hurt from it is the person the act is supposed to help. Sure Sam was lied to and lost his agency, but he also got to live. No one could call Dean a total douche for saving his brother by dealing him some pain. In his eyes it was probably like injecting him with medicine, it's painful but it heals.
It's a whole different business if a character railroads a third party just to get what he wants, a party that has no stakes in the deal. It rubbed me the wrong way because I know (and it was proven in 9x22) that Cas never would have done the same to Dean. It's true that finding an alternative way involved risks (in this case Gadreel leaving,) but that's a choice a character makes to be classified as a hero. Heroes take risks, like Dean did with the virgin, and with Anna. But those were in seasons 1-5. In Carver's seasons Dead abandoned Benny to get out of a row with Sam, and abandoned Castiel to not get into a row with the parasite possessing Sam. That's not the conduct of a hero and definitely not in character for Dean who used to avoid it with complete strangers let alone friends and brothers in arms.
I agree with you. Fans should not decide where a story goes mainly because they don't know the whole picture. The only person that has full access to that picture and hence full authority over it is the original author.
ReplyDeleteThis however gets complicated with TV shows that run for several years, have their staff changed and different groups of people running them at different times. Some of the most recent writers admitted they hadn't watched all the seasons of before they came on board. In this case fans who have watched those seasons might have a better understanding of the show's canon and universe than those writers. Their complaint about the way the story is written could be not because they aren't getting what they want, but because what they are getting might be outside the acceptable boundaries of the original concept and affecting the quality of the product.
There's even a situation where fans could legitimately complain about hookups they expect. If a show runner builds up a relationship and chemistry between two characters then leaves before it comes to fruition, and the new person in charge doesn't agree with the hookup and destroys the relationship then fans are allowed to complain. They were led to believe those characters were going somewhere and if they suddenly don't because the new show runner doesn't agree with it is like taking their emotional investment in the story the way it was presented and throwing it in the dumpster.
What fans make up in their heads should not have a bearing on the show. I fully agree with that. What they get from the show's history however, and what they are led to believe and like, is sacred and every writer taking the position to add to it must familiarize himself/herself with it and honor it no matter what they personally want or like. That doesn't mean they cannot change the direction of the story and take it to their favorite place. It means they should do it by finding ways to stay true to character personalities and past events.
Thank you. I hope they fix Sam too. His lack of POV has made him inaccessible to me and I don't like that at all. More importantly, since Dean would be going to dark places next season it's nice to have a POV in the light to be able to feel his loss through Sam's emotions and thoughts.
ReplyDeleteI'd look up the term 'codependent' if I were you. There's a difference between a strong sibling bond and an unhealthy one. A lot of viewers want to see characters that care deeply about each other - but still have a moral compass, self-worth, and the ability to care about people other than their brother.
ReplyDeleteI always hate this argument - that their background makes it impossible to have a healthy adulthood. There are plenty of people who grew up with neglectful parents, or in poverty, or in jeopardy... and a lot of them end up as excellent adults - ones who've learned from the examples of what not to do.
I think you see that in Dean - he might have idolized his father - but in many ways he is diametrically opposite him. He was cleaning up his messes even when his mother was alive, as we saw in DSoTM.
You can't look at the characters in the last few seasons where the 'brother bond' was central to the show and think that it makes the characters happy.
Personally, I want Dean and Sam to have more people in their life, to find happiness, to find a calling beyond that of hunting that makes Dean feel like he's worth something and gives Sam some of the dream of normality (possibly as a MoL) that he's always had. Dean was always in hunting to keep his family together - give him another job where he is uniquely qualified to do it and where he gets to be with the people he loves - and you'd see a great show and a healthier character. This doesn't mean suburbia - the Purgatory storyline was a great example of this. People loved it, even the brother fans, even though they weren't together. If the Sam side of the storyline had been equally action-packed and interesting it would have been an uncontested winner
I think they are afraid to let other people in now, it's like that everybody they meet dies sooner or sooner due to some creature/demon/angel trying to get to THEM.
ReplyDeleteSo I think personally they are afraid on a deep level of bringing danger to others and that the only way to protect others is to stay together under the radar taking out everything they can.
I don't understand however why they are not part of the larger hunting world.
Those people are already in danger doing dangerous work killing dangerous things.
They didn't protect Meg, even after all she'd done for them.
ReplyDeleteMeg had never really done anything for them. She'd worked with them out of mutual interest after terrorizing them for years.
I was a fan of Meg's, but they owed her nothing. She would have done the same.
They left Jo and Ellen to die.
Jo was already dying and Ellen asked them to leave because she wanted to die too.
I agree with you about Kevin, and they did treat Cas poorly in the past, but not as much in recent seasons.
But of course, Cas is 'just a tool', who doesn't deserve any consideration and gets kicked to the curb just when he needs help the most.
They didn't treat him as a tool this season. Dean knew Sam would die if Cas stayed. That was the only reason he kicked Cas out.
Your example about the writers is an example of what I mean when I say lazy writing. The job of a writer on a television series is to fit seamlessly into the fabric of the show. If you're not willing to do the homework and/or research to make that happen then you (IMHO) shouldn't get the job.
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