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USD POLL : Game of Thrones - Was Jaime Lannister justified in killing [******]?
7 May 2014
Game of Thrones Polls USDPLet us know in the comments what you voted for and why?
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He was. But Robert was not justified in killing Jon's dad.
ReplyDeleteMost definitely, otherwise the whole of Kings Landing would have been destroyed and innocent people killed. He made the right choice. Heck whilst Robert Baratheon wasn't father or husband of the year his time as King was pretty stable compared to what came next.
ReplyDeleteNot sure why the title of this post acts like its spoiler when we find out he killed him pretty early on in S1!
Completely justified, King Aerys was insane and was going to slaughter the entire city.
ReplyDeleteNot sure why this is a spoiler as it's something that happened before years before Season 1 started.
Agree, I'd be interested to hear why some people have voted no tbh, to hear the other side of the argument.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it is people who don't like Jaime? or maybe the Mad King has some fans!
ReplyDeleteI was thinking it could be Targaryen fans in general, lol.
ReplyDeleteAhh might be!
ReplyDeleteYes, it was justified. They always call his the King Slayer, like he did something bad. In reality he saved the city.
ReplyDeleteYou know, I've heard it suggested before, but Dany might turn out to be kinda batty as well, given her lineage and her perspective toward the sack of K.L, the slaughter of her family. and the effect it had on her life.
ReplyDeleteI think she could definitely go a bit crazy - the Targaryens have crazy blood in them look at Viserys he was unhinged. All that close breeding probably hasn't helped.
ReplyDeleteMy theory for how the show/books end are that the main players like Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Stannis, hell maybe even Littlefinger realise that it is pointless taking control of Kings Landing when Westeros is about to be overtaken by the White Walkers. So uneasy alliances are formed to fight the bigger evil. I hope Dany's perspective changes when she actually gets to Westeros and finds out the reality of what has happened and learns that being a leader is less about revenge and more about saving the people from zombies!
Well, he could've knocked Aerys out, and he would've answered for his crimes. But sure he was, even though the timing is a little too convenient for my liking, with his father's army outside the gates and what they did to the city.
ReplyDeleteDaenerys fans most likely who perceive it as injustice against her family. Those usurper's dogs and their audacity, taking up arms against those who thought themselves as godlike and above mere humans.
ReplyDeleteI definitely think there's a good debate in asking if there is a difference between madness and greatness and/or where the line is in a world like this, but to be fair, despite Dany's "I will fight injustice with Justice line (which actually supports "yes" this question from Dany's own perspective + lets her brother be murdered), she turns around in the next episode and realizes that the Iron Throne isn't the most important thing to herself...she kind of deflected from that initial ideal by putting freedom first.
ReplyDeleteHowever, the books get a little more into the idea of fate and reincarnation, as Dany's dragons are...sometimes I think when she's on her high horse that she's literally an incarnate of someone else. And so my point is because there's an element of fate, crazy might be a 'natural' component of getting to where ever we are going....
That's true, but I think even Dany believes that you should fight "injustice with justice"....she allowed her own brother to die by her husband and has also decided at the moment that the Iron Throne isn't as important as the freedom she has brought to others
ReplyDelete" hope Dany's perspective changes when she actually gets to Westeros and finds out the reality of what has happened and learns that being a leader is less about revenge and more about saving the people from zombies!"
ReplyDeleteExactly. I def feel like that has to become the bigger picture....but also I think Dany's own ideals generally supports this argument anyways, and thus if she would still seek the throne for "revenge", than she becomes a serious hypocrite (allowed her own brother to die), but obviously she's currently decided that Freedom is better ideal...
Ha! XD
ReplyDeleteWithout a doubt the act was justified.
ReplyDeleteHer sense of justice is a little bit twisted if you ask me, but that's a whole other thing not appropriate to be discussed here. Bringing up the point about her standing idle and watching her own brother and only remaining relative die a horrible dead further proves what I'm saying. He wasn't a good person, but her apathy makes her cruel and vicious. It's her lust of revenge that drives her forward (righting the wrongs against her family which are based on false information)and the perception she has about how certain things should be. I mean take for instance the slave trade she tries so hard to abolish. It's vital in the economy of the free cities, but she can't see that because she's stubborn, which is also a little bit hypocritical. She has an army of slaves and their status hasn't changed that much. No rehabilitation, no nothing, they're still fighters with a master. But I am getting off topic here :p.. Anyways, while what happened to Aerys was just, the rest of the royal family didn't deserve their fate. And as for some who might have voted no based on how much they like Dany, I doubt they even know the whole story behind the rebellion.
ReplyDeleteI have faith she can be a great leader in the end, she is definitely learning how difficult it can be so hopefully this will all be put into action when she gets to her destination.
ReplyDeleteIt is one of those grey areas isn't it?
ReplyDeleteHer idea of justice is iron-fisted at best, retribution and revenge at its worst. Like you said, letting her brother die is much like letting the slavers die. The means are cruel, but the ends could be just if she becomes Queen and rules well.
The altruistic goal is great, but she would probably be able to more good faster if she became Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Staying in Meereen helps one city, but becoming Queen could in theory help the entire continent.
Meereen could be her turning point. Let's see what she does from now on, but so far she, but so far every place she has ruled was laid to waste. she has left a trail of chaos and destruction behind her.
The villages she liberated have returned to their old ways now that she has left.. What has she really accomplished so far?
To be fair he did beat him fair and square in a single combat. In his mind, he was more than just justified. He stole from him what he held more precious.
ReplyDeleteVery true, but I was laughing at the assertion of Jon's dad's identity more than whether or not it was just.
ReplyDeleteI think many (if not most) people agree believe R+L=J but it usually is not just flatly stated. It amused me :)
Well, while he might not have stolen her literally, he did steal her. I must note that I am a believer as well, I just felt like I had to add that Robert's win was justified even if he believed it was for different reasons. It just adds more irony and tragedy into our hero's story :p
ReplyDeleteSo true!
ReplyDeleteEach heroes story is just filled with tragedy, or at least could be if certain plot elements come to fruition! Jon, Dany, Jaime, Tyrion.... the lot of them!
Got is filled with drama and pain. While I have no illusions that this is gonna have a good ending, I just hope at least Tyrion gets to outlive them all. Poor guy deserves a disney ending. The other have their duties and sins to pay for, unfortunately.
ReplyDeleteI agree and that's why I brought it up, because the thing I like about GOT is that it raises some very controversial and IMO hard questions about leadership verses right of passages verses freedom in relation to how societies can run themselves.
ReplyDeleteLike even when we consider the prospect of freedom, there might be a debate (going with French Enlightenment) if someone is ever really free? The Wildings are such an interesting contrast to that Dany's movement, because even though they believe themselves free they still fight among themselves, are semi-disorderly, and live on a near uninhabitable land. So I think there's a statement here that maybe no one is ever free and just because you think your free, doesn't mean your "good".
I like Dany a lot, but I was glad in the last episode she took a moment to reflect on her ideals, as opposed to marching on without caring about her own accomplishments. Obviously the series could totally end in a horrific tragedy, but I'm still hopeful that White Walkers create a situation that leads to better world in the end.
"taying in Meereen helps one city, but becoming Queen could in theory help the entire continent"
ReplyDeleteRight! That's another good point.
It does stink (and realistic) that those cites have fallen. It's just so hard to say if Bannister's suggestion about mercy (taking the high road) will even come into play before the series ends, because for all of the potential cruelty she's caused, and freedom she's brought, it didn't make a dent. So is it that she needs to have a gentle heart or is that she needs to be meaner?
It all trial by error I suppose! XD
That's the irony of it sin't it?
ReplyDeleteDoing good things can easily lead to bad outcomes... To accomplish good you may need to do bad things.
It's a hard line to find and Dany has not learned the lesson yet. She has basically done the wrong thing in every situation attempting to achieve her ultimate goal. As a result most of her "good" acts are now overshadowed by the chaos and destruction she left behind her.
Well, at leas in the world of Westeros/ Essos. In the real world many people overlook that fact.
Does it matter - he pushed a child out of a window. There's no justifying that. Having said that I do love and enjoy his character :D
ReplyDelete"Doing good things can easily lead to bad outcomes... To accomplish good you may need to do bad things."
ReplyDeleteYes! And Dany's major flaw IMO is that she makes things so black and white with that halve's (masters) and the have-nots (slaves), because just because your a slave doesn't make you automatically a good person and just because your master doesn't necessarily mean your a bad person, despite that the majority of GOT's audience surely thinks slavery is wrong. People get into all kinds of situations for all kinds of reasons.
It's also for this reason I kind of get sick of sexism/feminism arguments people take with show, because despite that it's in mostly a male dominated world, and that woman actually do make stands, it's not necessarily always for the better of woman or mankind, so kind of the find the argument semi-moot, because it think it's so politically and morally complicated than just being about a woman's role and/or how they get portrayed in this particular world. Ok now I'm done with MY rant!! :D
Exactly!
ReplyDeleteThose slavers were not evil necessarily, but many were I'm sure. It just is not black and white like you said.
My view on the slavers is that you simply cannot call a person evil and blame them for doing what has always been done when it is and has been the social norm for centuries, but you have to acknowledge and celebrate the exceptional person that is willing to make a moral stand against tradition.
Am I the only one that does not look at Jaime as pure evil for pushing Bran out the window?
ReplyDeleteYes it was a heinous act, but he was protecting his family's name. After all, many of the acts taken in the series are for the good of that character's House and family. Many of the acts are quite terrible, but people look at them differently since the victim was an "evil" person.
Right! Exactly.
ReplyDeleteSometimes I feel like I live in a world where people don't value the concept of culture itself. So many times it feels like people tend to claim the Ethnocentrism card in regards to our own culture and can't see through the complexity of another society living a certain way for long periods of time and/or simply having a different value system in relation to in a belief purpose. Change usually takes a long time too...
It was a horrible act, but I do think he can redeem himself. I mean in all honesty, if we (as people) don't ever allow for some forgiveness and/or value an ability to change, then what's the point?
ReplyDeletePlus on the flip side of this, there is the fact that if this didn't happen to Bran, he might not have been on the path he is on, which in theory, could end up being important to the end of the story, since I think he's a character that more exclusively may tie back to this world's beginnings...
Why is the name hidden ? It's not a spoiler ! We never knew this character !
ReplyDeleteWhen I saw this pool I thought it was a spoiler from last episode and I was so afraid it could be Cersei because of the number of letters that I had to check. I'm so relieved.
I don't necessarily think it was right for him to have pushed Bran out of the window, but yes he was protecting his family name. Bran was also disobeying his mother, not for the first time, and should never have been there in the first place, dangerous things happen when you learn dangerous secrets, no matter what your age unfortunately. Plus it was something he had to go through in order for him to become what he is to become, and arguably Jamie too in some ways.
ReplyDeleteMy (somewhat tinfoil) theory is that Dany doesn't unite with Jon and the others but opposes them. Instead of her using the dragons to save Westeros from the White Walkers, Jon and the others use the White Walkers to save Westeros from Dany. She will bring nothing but destruction, or "fire and blood", in her quest for vengeance and power. Dany, and not the White Walkers, is being set up as the ultimate villain.
ReplyDeleteI like your tinfoil theory and Ican see it. I have my own very similar tinfoil theory!
ReplyDeleteThe White Walkers being associated with the First Men, the Seven, and the Starks are actually the "good guys" and the Targaryen invaders represented by Dany are the "bad guys" who bring chaos and disharmony to the natural balance of the Old Gods.
Not pure evil definitely, unlike Cersei. At first I thought he was a complete douche, but after having read his povs I don't think he's as bad as he tries to be. Of course the Lannisters are liars, treacherous and arrogant, and we can't debate whether it is his fault or not because of the way he was brought up and taught, but we know that he somewhere lost his way and that's not how he started out to be. So there's is that, but he's the same person who threw a 7 year old from the top of a tower, and later instead of admitting his fault he pretty much accused him for spying on him and Cersei. And the man who was going to murder a 9 year old without giving it a second thought to make Cersei happy. Sure nobody is perfect in Got or pure evil/good and he's no exception. While he's tried to change, his past and action don't simply get absolved. I get he is not bad or good either, but I've seen many people who try to make him look some kind of hero and all of his past has been automatically erased because of the true events behind Aerys's murder.
ReplyDeleteHa! Very true. He did help him actually without knowing it. I've seen people going as far as justifying the act on the pretense of that. Bran opening his third eye, which wouldn't have been otherwise possible. It just remains to be seen on what path he actually send him to. He could've helped him greatly, or doomed him depending on which side are TCOF and BR are actually on.
ReplyDeleteI think he was true grey with charcoal grey spots to begin with, but over the course of the 5 books those charcoal spots have lightened up to a light grey. Basically, the Lannister lion has changed his spots (apologies). He now tries to do more good than bad, but is still pretty grey in the center! XD
ReplyDeleteYeah think the major aspect that has changed is he now thinks and sympathizes before just acting on impulse. He was so accustomed to just following orders, going through the motions that he became callous and cold. Now he has started to realize he is more than just the cursed Kingslayer and is capable of selfless acts and doing good at times.
Like you said, that is unlike Cersei who is more nuanced on the TV series, but still more self-centered, bitter and power-hungry. It is hard to imagine Cersei sacrificing herself to save anyone other than her children.
That is a crazy theory and one possibility I never thought of but damn I kind of like it!
ReplyDeleteHe wasn´t, he had no right to kill the man or had to. Lets compare 18-year-old Jaime and old Aerys. He could have detain him until the trial. He swore to protect the royal family and instead of saving those children, he was murdering the king.
ReplyDelete