Back in January, when I was reviewing episode 9.10 I praised Andrew Dabb for his unassuming, uncluttered, character driven writing and took him off of my should-be-fired list. Then he wrote and promoted Bloodlines and I re-examined my position because…well, we all watched Bloodlines.
With 9.22 he gained his status back as the writer who is a head and a tiny shoulder above the rest of Carver’s staff.
Don’t get me wrong, the episode still had a ton of problems, many of which were his doing. But he also did one thing no writer this season cared or dared to do: he pitted a character against the plot and let the character win.
The scene I’m talking about is the angels seizing Dean and asking Castiel to choose between him and their loyalty.
Hard-Choice scenes are some of the best in stories. An entire book could lead to one and end after its resolution is decided. Dean choosing Sam by making a deal with a crossroads demon was the centerpiece of seasons 1-3. Everything that came before or after hinged on it. Similarly the entire arcs of seasons 4&5 were centered on Dean, Sam and Cas rejecting Heaven and Hell and choosing free will.
The reason such scenes are powerful is because they bring a character’s core to the front and challenge it. The character has to choose, and their choice is bound by who and what they are. The decision they make steers the plot, sometimes to one of two possible directions, sometimes to a whole new one. But regardless where the plot ends, it will be because of what the character decides, which in turn depends on who the character really is deep inside, in other words character driven storytelling.
That scene in Stairway To Heaven was such a scene. It was a risky one and I got nervous when it started, hoping Dabb would remember Castiel’s core psychology shown to us over 6 seasons. If Castiel had killed Dean, or even made a attempt to kill Dean all would have been lost. It would have made the writers and showrunner disrespectful toward their own canon since it was during Carver’s reign that Naomi’s Manchurian Candidate plot was produced.
Thankfully Dabb didn’t and the penultimate episode was saved. What followed were pleasant Team Free Will undertones, at least to this Team Free Will fan who loved seeing all three boys under the same roof. It still had a lot of rough edges that I will address shortly, but at least it didn’t hurt, not as much as it would have had the runaway plot steamrolled all over everything we knew and loved about Castiel and Dean and ruined what was left of this season.
Gripe #1 – Metatron, again!
It’s safe to say the storyline we’re going into the finale with is Dean losing his mind to the Mark of Cain (therein referred to as the mark,) with Metatron as the final boss. Before I get to the mark and all its problems let’s talk about Metatron as the season’s main and final villain.
I’ve already talked extensively about why he’s a weak antagonist in the previous reviews. He is not scary, or funny, or witty, or domineering, or smart, or powerful, or scheming. The only thing that makes so many hate him (and not in the love-to-hate kind of way) is that he is annoying. What I want to talk about though is why he isn’t enough to fuel a ‘blind rage’ storyline such as the one we’re being lead to.
Usually when a character shows uncontrolled anger toward a villain it’s because of some personal experience. You barely see a hero loose his cool because a villain started a big war, massacred a population, or ran a drug cartel. Most times it’s because a home is lost in the war, a loved one killed in the massacre, or a life ruined due to drugs. Universal bad behavior isn’t as good a motivation for becoming Vader in fiction as personal suffering is.
Look at the two instances we had on Supernatural. Season 4 Sam went darkside because Lilith tore his brother to shreds in front of him. Season 6 Castiel chose the wrong path because Raphael aimed to destroy everything he loved and fought for since season 4. Both made sense in their madness.
This isn’t true about Dean and Metatron. I can’t tell what Metatron has done to Dean that has him so hell bent on killing him. I said the same thing about Dean and Abaddon several episodes ago, when she was his prime target and Metatron was an afterthought. I didn’t know what his grudge against her was then, and I don’t know what his grudge against Metatron is now.
You could say Metatron killed Kevin. The show even made an attempt to remind us of it in one of the recaps. But the problem still is that Dean didn’t care about it until now. If Dean hadn’t focused on Abaddon so much, if he’d been all about Metatron – or Gadreel – all this time, I would’ve bought this reasoning. But he acted at peace after Kevin’s ghost talked to him, and didn’t bother with Metatron until this episode. How am I supposed to know how he feels when those feelings shift according to the most immediate plot?
And there is our real culprit again: the plot. The reason Dean’s Mark of Cain storyline has a weak motive is because it’s largely plot oriented. It is not pointed toward a single goal based on Dean’s inner struggle and personal hang up. It oscillates to point in whatever direction the writer-of-the-moment wants it to.
Gripe #2 – What is this mark business?
Cain gave Dean the mark when Crowley talked him into finding a way to kill Abaddon. Let’s forget about Gripe #1 and the question of why Dean would care about that, and assume it’s the mark – and not a strong personal drive – that causes Dean to go after bad guys.
That brings us to the subject of the mark, and what effect it has on the bearer.
The backstory of the mark is a bit murky. If I recall correctly Cain received it to keep his arrogant brother out of hell, which was a noble act. Cain himself appeared very calm and in control the first time we met him, and when he gave the mark to Dean, for several episodes after that Dean was calm too.
Then we hit the final stretch of the season, and are finished with werewolf Garth and Annie Vampire, and the mark starts acting up. It’s as if the writers ignored it until they needed it to advance the final plot, and they suddenly turned it on. That inconsistency, coupled with the fact that we have no clue – neither from the backstory, nor from Cain himself– what the mark does to the person wearing it, makes its story confusing.
Despite being an undefined piece of the mythology the mark is now the center of this season’s main storyline. Not having a definitive description of its effect frees the writers from having to limit themselves to canon restrictions and allows them to use it in whatever fashion they want, making the story hard to predict and giving rise to problems such as Gripe #7.
Gripe #3 – Sam and Cas go to Disneyland
Just as it bothered me that Sam took a basement trip in the last episode so Dean could be alone in his final Abaddon battle, I couldn’t understand the redundant part of this episode where Sam and Cas take a trip to a warded warehouse. I can’t even remember why they went there, which speaks volumes about how pointless the reason must have been. They enter a place that looks like a Haunted House at a Halloween fair, pass some Prince of Persia inspired traps, and end up on the set of “Carrie” before the prom sequence.
The other problem with all this, aside from it being entirely pointless, is that it’s also incredibly boring and without tension. There are the blades of course, but only a child would think they present any form of danger to two main characters. They don’t encounter any enemies, or surprises, or revelations, and the end is a giant letdown. They neither learn nor gain anything. It’s all a huge time filler to keep Sam and Castiel occupied while Dean tackles the real plot with Tessa.
Gripe #4 – The disaster that was Tessa
Do I even need to talk about this one? What a sad ending for Tessa, the beautiful, respectable and beloved reaper who was a precious relic from season 2 and introduced us to the entire species. At least Ellen, Jo, Pamella, Sarah and even Meg went out with dignity.
First they change her species (though I hear they claim reapers are angels now,) then they make her crazy and suicidal. If there’s one thing that was established about Tessa in the previous seasons was that she was as duty bound and no nonsense as Death himself. She didn’t mess around, she didn’t let personal feelings or a little hardship get in the way of her job, and she taught these lessons to Dean.
How are we supposed to link that character – known by such strictly defined personality it was used twice in plot – to this brainwashed, out of control, suicide bomber? What happened to her? What happened to Death? If the souls are screaming so badly reapers are going insane, shouldn’t he show up and do something about it? Or is he on a trip to Disneyland too?
Gripe #5 – The flaky angels nobody likes
Since season 5 ended there’s always been voices who demanded the Heaven and Hell story to end and the angels taken off the show. Never before have those voices been as loud as this season, nor did I ever lean toward them as much as I do now.
These angels are ridiculous. I’ve said it before many times how much I despise their disjointed season 9 storyline, how inconsistent and feather brained they are, and how they have been reduced to mere shadows of the mighty, mythical creatures they once used to be.
But this episode was the straw that broke the camel’s back. After latching onto Castiel, who neither wanted to be their leader, nor showed any signs of strong leadership skills, they suddenly break off the agreement and join the other side after one chat with the enemy. They build a vast underground headquarters, assign ranks and responsibilities to individuals, draw charts and build war plans with sophisticated blinky lights, then collectively give up and leave because Metatron said some stuff over a video? Accusations for which he provided neither proof nor details? What kind of idiots are these creatures? Is there even a question why a large section of the fandom wants them off the screen?
The irony of this silly storyline is that it happened in the same episode where a bunch of these idiots were shown going off the rails due to too much devotion to Castiel. Apparently there’s no middle ground with them, they're either zealots or double-crossers, which makes one wonder if Castiel isn't better off without them. What's the use of an army of mercurial lunatics who could turn on him in the blink of an eye, for as flimsy a reason as “Metatron said so.”
Gripe #6 – The tropes that plague Castiel
It may seem hypocritical of me to slam the Choice scene after I spent the beginning of this review praising it. I have my reasons though, and while one writing choice could generate applause, it’s not unreasonable if coexisting ones generate criticism.
Some of those writing choices were those I talked about in the previous gripe. The fact that Castiel’s so-called army was so willing to drop everything and leave after one allegation was eyeroll inducing. This is not how a situation like this is handled in real life. Typically, if this happens in a real army, the commander is placed under arrest while a temporary one takes his place and starts investigating the case, which then leads to a trial.
But the bigger problem is Castiel himself, both how he acts in certain situations, and what is acted upon him.
Castiel’s deer-in-the-headlight reaction when someone puts him on the spot and accuses him of something bad dates back to season 6. It’s hardly out of character for him to say something stupid like “You don’t understand,” or “It’s complicated,” instead of articulating his reasons or defending his position with logic and confidence.
However this seems not to be treated as a flaw or weakness of his character by the show, rather a tool for the writers to use when they don’t want to complicate pathways where the accusations need to lead. It’s easier when he clams up and paves the way for his downfall, justified or not, than if he fights back.
In season 6 a lot of backstory was created for Castiel to show what precisely pushed him into doing the things he did – from Raphael’s promise to kill both him and his friends, to how he went to Dean but ended up not telling him the truth. None of it was presented to Dean, Sam and Bobby at his proverbial trial by fire, and hence their judgment of him was based on incomplete information. It made his condemnation and later his demise much easier.
Yet in Purgatory, when the story needed Dean to understand his reasons for leaving him, so that he would take him to the portal and face the rest of the drama together, Castiel suddenly finds the words and defends his actions eloquently.
In this episode Cas once again had to clam up. Had he told the angels to piss off and stop giving him ultimatums, or simply clarified the stolen grace accusation, it wouldn’t have been as easy to have them all join Metatron as it was this way. And since whatever is planned for the finale requires them to all be on Metatron’s side and not with Castiel, he had to play his part that way.
Not to mention Cas made a thankless sacrifice for the Winchesters again, which has become such a repeated trope it rivals Sam falling victim to some evil spell and Dean doing something reckless to rescue him.
Gripe #7 – The trouble with Dark Dean
This one is controversial and took me a while to formulate it objectively. It’s less about whether or not Dean’s actions in this episode were right or wrong (which is the focus of most of the arguments among fans,) and more about whether or not they were by his own will or side effects of the mark.
I already said in Gripe #2 that there’s a problem with the mark’s influence being mostly a mystery. We don’t know if it makes a bearer overly angry, or distrustful, or violent. We don’t know if it brings out hidden feelings and old grudges, or creates imaginary new ones that drive the bearer mad.
With Dean it’s even more complicated because he is the POV character and less morally compromised than the rest of them. We are used to believe Dean’s way is the right way in most situations. We defer to him when we want to know whose side to take. Obviously this isn’t true for everyone especially those leaning more toward Sam or Cas, but it seems to be the show’s opinion that is enforced by the writers and accepted by most casual viewers.
Now Dean is on the verge of a downfall and one wonders which of his actions are due to the mark’s effect (bad) and which are his usual behavior (not bad.) He gets overly angry at Cas because he is convinced he is the one behind the suicide bombings. Later in the car Cas describes him as being angrier than usual. Is the objective viewer supposed to believe Dean was angrier than usual, and unfair to Cas, due to being consumed by the mark's effect? Or were his actions his own and justified because Castiel is untrustworthy?
Similarly toward the end of the episode Dean lashes out at Sam for getting on his case about the blade. Again this could be seen as Dean acting out of control under the influence of the mark, or him finally having had enough of Sam bossing him around and deciding to stand up for himself.
The examples don’t end there: The attack on the nurse angel – good? because she was a self-rightous ‘dick,’ or bad because he was? Tessa’s murder – good? because of what she was doing and how she wanted to kill innocent people, or bad because he wasn’t supposed to have the blade with him and kill her like that? It goes on and on, and even though I have my own opinion about each of these (mostly not in favor of Dean I might add,) I don't know what we’re expected to believe objectively, because with Dean in the hot seat there’s no writer-approved moral compass to use as reference.
Next week is the finale and the previews are already out. Many seem less than enthusiastic about the story and the overall level of satisfaction seems at an all time low. While I don’t have any predictions about what will happen in the finale, I do have a wishlist of things I hope would not happen:
- No one, under no circumstances, should be possessed by Metatron.
- There shall be no scenarios or circumstances under which Metatron survives into the next season (please!)
- No one should pull anyone consumed by blind rage out of their blind rage by talking to them slowly and incoherently so they would remember good times.
- No one should sacrifice himself for another person and die, be grievously injured, or put on a countdown to death.
- Sam should stay healthy and whole for the entire finale and beyond. No more breaking Sammy for the sake of cranking up the tension and drama of the cliffhanger.
- No one should be unreasonably mean and hurtful to another person and break a relationship for flimsy, stupid reasons.
- No one who won't stay dead should die.
If you say I just denied the writers all possible go-to strategies for the final episode then you're right. It’s high time they pulled their heads out of the cheerleading social media sands and wrote something original.
See you on the other side of the finale. Don’t forget to sound off in the comments.
Tessa
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Excellent review as usual. Although I disagree with #2. I think maybe the reason why it wasn't acting up as much was because perhaps it gets worse the more he kills? maybe that coupled with his anger increases exponentially the closer he gets to the first blade?
ReplyDeleteI seem to have bigger issues with Tessa than you do as well. I wrote this comment a few days ago somewhere else and I hope you don't mind if I repost it here, I'm still annoyed about it and I need to vent. Let's have a look at reasons why it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that Reapers are
now Angels (this is off the top of my head so please correct me if I'm wrong).
- They have their own true form, which is like some floaty ghost thing.
- Only dead people/Angels can see them (like when Cas saw 100's in that city standing on rooftops and stuff and nobody else could see them)
- Dean had to die in order to summon Tessa
- They can be 'chained' to people and forced to do their will
- They work for Death, not God. Death doesn't work for God
- Anti-angel sigils don't work on them
- Tessa was scared of angels
- Tessa was possessed by a demonI
I know it seems like I'm nitpicking, but this is a stupid thing to retcon on. Especially just to bring back the third longest surviving character (after Sam and Dean), and the longest surviving female character just to kill her after two scenes.
I would have been less annoyed if Dean had killed her properly. To show how the mark was taking over him and stuff like that because like I said, she is the longest surviving character after the boys, so her death at deans intentional hands due to the mark would have had far more weight behind it. But her being back and dying the way she did was just not needed. There was no point for her coming back. When it was first announced that she was returning I thought it was great. I loved her character and I loved the reapers, and I thought she was coming back to the show so we could see how crowded the afterlife was getting with souls not being able to move on, I thought that we were going to experience and see it somehow and in my head it was going to be creepy and epic. But that whole storyline was mentioned pretty much offhand and that was all we got. It's just a shame really. So yeah, I have major issues with Tessa's storyline this week and I can't really see past that haha. Thanks for posting these reviews to give me a place to rant.
very good observations.The writing has become very lacklustre and tedious.I hope they can explore dean's progress towards darkness well.And,yes,keep sam unbroken for one season at least.This card has been played way too many times.That being said,i am hoping they can tie up all the loose ends of this season by this finale.Metatron has to die,like now.he has become beyond irritating!!
ReplyDeleteNot to mention that they wiped out a whole separate species of mythology and now demons can possess angels (YED possessing Tessa in 2.01), which makes demons the most powerful supernatural in the universe and God weaker than the King of Hell.
ReplyDeleteI had massive dislike for what the Nepotism Duo did in Taxi Driver, and Dabb just double-downed on it.
Thank you for the comment. I agree with everything you said about Tessa and the total deconstruction of the reaper mythology. But it didn't just happen this episode. It started as far back as season 8 with Taxi Driver when Sam and Dean suddenly walked up to a rogue reaper and saw him without being dead, a reaper who could operate outside Death's command,(which begged the question, how is that even possible which such an entity as Death?) and be killed with an angel blade.
ReplyDeleteSo no, you are not nitpicking. Canon is there for a reason otherwise every fanfiction writer could become a show writer and really, why not? At the level and quality the storytelling and dialogues have sunk I could see it happening. You don't even have to have watched the show to write for it when it clearly doesn't matter how much you know about what happened so far.
There was no point for her coming back.
My guess it they needed a familiar face to front the suicide bomber squad and couldn't find anyone since all angel characters were dead thanks to them (Anna, Rachel, Hester, any of them would have been a better choice.) So they brought back Tessa, erased her character sheet, her background and even her species, and treated her like a set piece.
I thought she was coming back to the show so we could see how crowded the afterlife was getting with souls not being able to move on.
You're thinking based on canon that happened before, not canon the writers want to go next. In my last review I said that is the cause of most story problems we are facing now. The writers want the plot to go somewhere and they are not afraid to trample over past characters and established canon to get there.
Thank you, to be honest I don't want anyone to be broken in the finale because I want my Team Free Will together and strong. But I made a special rule for Sammy because I've been enjoying him (and Jared's good looks) these past couple of episodes and don't want them to make him look emancipated again. He seems to be their chosen one for that and it's getting really really old.
ReplyDeleteAlso no Cas becoming human again please, but I left that out because it has only happened once or twice.
Tessa didn't introduce us to reapers, it was in 1x12 "Faith" that did this as well as in this episode, it is subtly mentioned that reapers are indeed angels because during Sam and Dean's conversation, they mentioned the "angel of death" name for the reaper. Reapers must be some sort of offset of an angel with their own rules and guidelines, which, I think after thinking over it for a couple of days, I am less an less irritated about the change.
ReplyDeletePeople who are alive can see angels("Taxi Driver").
ReplyDeleteTessa was the first reaper with dialogue so in a way she introduced us to the species. The other reaper we only saw. Just like you could see someone on the street but not be introduced to them until you talk to them.
ReplyDeleteThere are massive canon problems with them being offshoots of angels, particularly the fact that angels need vessels and reapers don't. They also are not supposed to be seen unless you are dead or close to dying. Tessa being dragged around and interviewed by Dean is retconning everything that happened in "Death Takes a Holiday" and "Appointment in Samara." They could call them angels or whatever they like, but they have to either stick to the canon they have established so far or come up with an explanation why reapers are suddenly different.
My issue with Gripe #2 is that this has been a season of exposition, exposition and some more exposition. Seriously it's been so bad it's starting to become annoying just how much they give. Specially with villain character in MOTW or Abaddon/Metatron. I joked already that Dean and Sam don't even have to investigate cases anymore because the bad guy is just going to show up and tell them /exactly/ everything they need to know with even extra unnecessary information.
ReplyDeleteYet the Mark of Cain, which is the one thing that should be getting some form of exposition or information on what it does/is, gets nothing! Why the hell do we need to know some character who will be in the show or 10 minutes life story, yet The Mark of Cain gets a line in passing from Sam or Castiel.
Interesting opening paragraph. I see your point, and I agree that is what the scene was meant to do. Cas has been shown to be indecisive and a reluctant leader, yet in this scene’ he chose Dean, his friend (and his personal contact to humanity) over a bunch of pathetic schizoid angels. I am going to
ReplyDeletereserve judgment on that scene. Based on what I saw in the extended promo for the finale, I am not sure that this isn’t going to turn out like the ending brother moment in 8.23, which was immediately
erased in 9.01.
Before I get into my feelings on the episode (and what’s wrong with the season as a whole), I just want to say that in Gripe #7, Dean did not murder Tessa – she killed herself. Tessa was magically turned into another mindless angel who chose to become a suicide bomber, hell-bent on killing angels, humans, and herself, and she ended up killing herself. I don’t want to argue the point, however, because the whole Tessa thing made me mad as hell. I will ask, though, who was the mole in Cas’ camp that killed Ezra in King of the Damned? Finding out who the mole was in Cas’ camp is the reason the brothers were there at Cas’ camp to begin with?
The real point I am making here fits into your Gripe #7: The writers have failed to form an actual
story with an actual beginning, middle, end, resolution of plots, character conflict or growth and development and they sure as hell don't want to have the brothers split up because most fans want them together. These failures are showing up in every episode this season and has resulted in unexplained conflict with the characters, sniping at each other one week and working together okay the next, no insight into what the characters are thinking, no tension, no clues, and sub-text can’t be trusted because it is either forgotten or done away with in the next episode. The viewers can’t see or read what is going on with any of the characters because of this failure, and that belittles the
characters (Sam not researching the MoC and Sam/Cas thinking Dean is just more 'tense'), which appear to have lost their skills, intelligence and knowledge over the last two years, and it belittles the audience by denying them the chance to live the episodes with the characters. The viewers have been turned into robots, just watching, guessing, and speculating as to what something means.
Dean’s MoC story is obviously a poached Sam S4 demon blood story, but the two situations, motivations, and characters are entirely different. Dean’s MoC story should be his internal struggle
with his dark feelings and the resolution should be that he gets over his lack of self-worth and feelings of unwarranted guilt, while Sam’s struggle was a straight addiction story.
I won’t even begin to speculate on what the finale might hold. Without letting the characters and audience know at least a little of what the Mark is supposedly capable of, no one can predict what might happen. It can literally be anything the writer decides to come up with.
What we have this season is an epic fail on the writers part, despite the acting by the two leads still being stellar. They are trying very hard to salvage the poor writing skills they are left to act out and make believable….and that is why I am still hanging with the show. I love the work these two guys give us fans.
Let's just hope Kripke comes back now that Revolution is dead. I know Edlund say he isn't coming back, but I still have hope for Kripke.
ReplyDeleteThe Nepotism duo. I like that. That made me laugh quite a bit thanks haha
ReplyDeleteFor the wishlist of things I hope will not happen, I would add: Kill off a female character.
ReplyDeleteI don't really think this is a problem though. Are there any women still alive that have been on more than 1 episode? They had to dig pretty far back to find Tessa. Maybe they will kill off Mrs. Tran. They will make it epic by killing off both actresses who played her at the same time.
This is my first time expressing my opinion over the internet. But I have to tell you that I really enjoy so much your grip review. Agreed with you mostly all the time. However about the grip #1 we can not forget that Dean is still a hunter. He went after Abadon because she was a demon, a powerful one. And one that probably they were going to have big problems because of the all the men of letters issues she had with them and because Sam made a personal damage to her at the end of season 8. The hunt for Metraton is a little harder to explain now that all angels are welcome back in heaven under Metratons rules. Yet theres the souls of people roaming the earth with no place to rest in peace. Probably at some point they will become angry spirits they will have to battle later.
ReplyDeleteI am no writer and english is not my primary language. Apologies if I don't something doesn't make sence.
In that kind of mindset, it would be suggested that we haven't really been introduced to the Wendigo either unless they speak, lol. It is in the episode "Faith" that we know about the lore of the species and what they are, where it is mentioned that they are angels of death.
ReplyDelete"particularly the fact that angels need vessels and reapers don't."
I'm pretty sure the Cupid didn't need a vessel in "My Bloody Valentine" as it would seem utterly disturbing that the vessel would just disrobe and walk around with undies.
"They also are not supposed to be seen unless you are dead or close to dying."
That is changed in "Taxi Driver", so it wouldn't even be this episode's fault for that change.
"Tessa being dragged around and interviewed by Dean is retconning everything that happened in "Death Takes a Holiday" and "Appointment in Samara.""
They can be seen by someone and we DO know that reapers can be bound by spell and necromancy as seen in "Faith". It's not too out there at all that Dean has handcuffs to bound a reaper as they can with demons and angels too.
I wrote a long reply which never posted (said being held) so here's a short one: I agree with your gripe about the angels. I dearly hope that on Tuesday when/if Dean goes after Metratron there is a score or so of angels for him to plow thru to get to Metatron.
ReplyDeleteThe angels are the worst. Demons are evil but angels are over-involved NASTY.
Lol @ the comment about MRS. Trans. I don't think there are any female characters left who are involved with the main plot enough to show up in the finale. In fact the amount of X chromosomes on the show is so low they had to flip a reaper to an angel so she could be the next one fridged.
ReplyDeletehi again, another awesome review! i agree 1-5 and 7, especially the wishlist there, see you next weekend
ReplyDelete- No one, under no circumstances, should be possessed by Metatron
ReplyDelete(That made me laugh out loud)
They could still kill off Jodi. Or Amelia.
ReplyDeleteI am going to belabor this point about reapers being angels, because I think it is
ReplyDeleteimportant, and that point is that by trashing canon and not sticking to the rules of their own show, it creates a mess. More than that, either fans can watch the episodes like robots, or they can dream up whatever they want to make the show make sense, or they can be mad about trashed canon and hold writers accountable for what they do.
Tessa was introduced in S2 In My Time of Dying as a reaper, and NOT corporeal. We were told in that episode that reapers could manifest themselves into whatever they wanted you to see. In other words, Tessa was a separate species entirely from angels, and we saw her true form before she manifested into a pretty young woman for Dean. Two more times Dean saw Tessa: Death Takes a Holiday and Appointment in Samarra. In both episodes, Dean killed himself and was in the veil before he could talk to Tessa.
More than that point, though, is Tessa’s characterization before she was turned into a mindless suicide bomber. The one thing that was established about Tessa in the previous seasons was that she had a strictly defined characterization. She worked for Death. She was duty bound. She had one job and she was going to do
it. There was no nonsense and no personal feelings involved, and she taught Dean a lesson about the natural order of things (Appointment in Samarra).
From Death Takes a Holiday when Dean tells her he wishes he had gone with, Tessa says:
Tessa: What? Your whole angel-demon dance-off? I could care less. I just want to do my job.
From Appointment in Samarra:
Tessa: Dean? What the hell? (She went on to say she was in the Sudan when he called, indicating that she was the reaper assigned to Dean.)
Dean: Tessa, I need a favor.
Tessa: Oh, you're kidding. You died to ask me --
Dean: Tell your boss I need to talk to him.
Tessa: No.
Dean: Please?
Tessa: Where do you get the nerve?
Dean: Desperate times.
Tessa: He calls us. We don't call him.
Dean: You make an exception!
Tessa: I can't.
Dean: Can't or won't?!
Tessa: Both!
Death: All right, Tessa. Thank you very much.
Hello, Dean.
That’s enough to get my points across, but there is more. IF you believe reapers have always been angels, then that not only wipes out a separate and distinct supernatural species, it means that demons can possess angels, because that’s what the YED did in In My Time of Dying to bring Dean back to life. Which also means that demons are more powerful than angels and the King of Hell is more powerful than God, since he controls demons. Which also means that Dean should be going after Crowley, not Metatron, because Crowley is the biggest fish in the pond.
Dabb was not the first one to trash the reaper canon; that was the Nepotism Duo in Taxi Driver, but he doubled-down on that trashed canon in this episode and, in doing so, completely ruined a well-defined, long-time character.
Nothing about this episode really changed anything about reapers, okay they are angels, but they clearly have their own forms and don't need to manifest in vessels. Reapers can alter perception, allow people to see what they want to see, so why shouldn't they be able to male themselves visible at will? Yeah, Dean had to "die" o get in touch with Tessa, mostly because that's the only way he would have been able to get in touch with her.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Tessa being possessed by Azazel in 2x01 never made sense to me when reapers were just reapers.
You gripe about the show doing too much telling and not enough subtly. And when we get the MoC story which has been been done with such a subtle matter through Jensen's acting, you gripe about that,. I just can't wrap my head around it.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair Azazel possessing Tessa never really made sense even in the context of reapers being a separate species.
ReplyDeleteLoved the episode, love the show and can't wait for the finale on Tuesday. Still the only show I have to watch as soon as I can and I am loving the MOC story liine. Love Sam and Cass being worried over Dean.
ReplyDeleteAnd when we get the MoC story which has been been done with such a subtle matter through Jensen's acting
ReplyDeleteThere you have it, Jensen once again doing all the heavy lifting through his subtle acting. What are the writers doing? What consistency of action have we seen in the way the mark affects Dean? I bet even Jensen doesn't know. If you do please enlighten me.
Sam and Cas worried over Dean is the best part of the MoC storyline. I love it. I'm just too sad it involves him getting overly angry at them, which tears the team apart. For once I want someone to give compassion and the other receive it without any bumps.
ReplyDeleteGreat stuff Tessa. I agree with almost everything you have said. Wanted to give my impressions and interpretations on a few things. Because the show did a terrible job with describing the effects of the Mark of Cain, I am more or less guessing as to what's going on.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the effects of the MoC started out very slowly. More or less a tiny bad feeling or craving here and there. You could definitely see as time went on that the effects started to heighten. Some of Dean's actions were more intense then usual. For example him killing the human in the Thinman episode as easily as he did or the way he decapitated the vampire with all of his force in the Annie episode. I do believe that the effects kept growing on him. Might be lazy writing but it started to expand and get worse later into the season. Also using the First Blade speeds up the effects rapidly which is why he began to really lose it after finishing off Abaddon. Again it's lazy writing but that seems to be indicative as to how Dean got to the dark place he is currently in.
For most of the time, I did NOT care about Metatron and in fact still today they have not given him much direction. I do partially like the madness of the character and actually liked him in Meta Fiction quite a bit. That being said most of the episode focusing on Metatron were not very well done and therefore the character has never properly developed. Wasted potential. I was more interested in Magnus who was offed 10 minutes after his reveal by Dean and the First Blade.
The Sam and Cas in the warehouse thing was just retarded and completely useless just to move the plot. I agree with you there.
Tessa was the worse thing to come of the episode. I say this almost every episode of every season past the Kripke years. Why does the show insist on killing off or destroying every single character? There is nearly nobody left from any of the earlier seasons and for a show that has almost 200 episodes, that's pretty crazy. Changing her into an angel was equally ridiculous and made no sense whatsoever. I'm still confused by the "Why"! They have written off or killed all of the fan favorite characters and for what reason? Why wouldn't they want a supporting cast for potential future episodes? I fully expect Sheriff Mills to die sometime next season. She is I believe one of the last remaining characters who have not been killed or written off yet.
As for the angels, nearly everyone is sick of them and what's worse is they went from serious to brain dead comic-relief characters. I have zero interest in the angel/demon story now. Especially when none of the characters are interesting and none of the mythology matters anymore.
Castiel's case is interesting. The writing for his character has been as shaky as the show itself. Some seasons I love him, some I hate him. Really liked the direction of him being human and possibly becoming a hunter early on in season 9 but once he got his Grace back he became the boring Castiel we no longer want. It's sad when Castiel's story lines keep giving you Deja Vu because they keep giving him the same plots from previous seasons.
Evil Dean, not sure what to make of this. It all depends what happens in the finale and if speculation of Dean or even Sam going full darkside next season happens.
I don't usually waggle around fan fiction as I don't care about that stuff but Tessa, if you are interested, someone wrote a really well done "season finale" and "season 10" plot that is lightyears better then what the writers will actually give us but is completely plausible and doable on the show's terrible budget:
Season finale: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=112216633&postcount=1909
Season 10: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=112226710&postcount=1911
This guy whipped up a better series arc then any of the writers could do. Pretty sad!
I really enjoyed reading your review.
ReplyDeleteOne point in particular with
which I totally agree is that the angel storyline played itself out a
long time ago. I believe the biggest reason the angels, and more
specifically, Castiel, are still a constant presence is because of the
huge following Misha Collins has garnered since he first became a
recurring cast member. His followers are a very vocal group. For the record, I have absolutely nothing against Misha or the character he portrays. I just believe the angel storyline died awhile ago.
I
also take issue with reapers being converted to angels. It was established early in her character's
development that Tessa was an entity which existed outside the realm of
heaven . Tessa and her kind answer to Death, and
Death answers to no one. Death himself said "In the end, I will reap
God, too."
In "Appointment in Samarra," Dean had to die in order
to talk to Tessa so that Tessa could summon her boss for him. The minute
he took off Death's ring, he lost access to Tessa. But in "Taxi
Driver," season 8, Dean and Sam walk up to a "rogue" reaper who drives a
taxi cab in his off time. He was killed by a knife through his back
courtesy of the King of Hell. And in season 9, Dean tracks Tessa down in
the street and then drags her through Command Central by the arm before
handcuffing her to a chair. Then it's Death by Angel Blade. But
wait...according to the Hunters' Bible aka John's Journal, reapers cannot be killed. You can try to run
from them when they come for you. You can try to hide from them when
they come for you. But you can't kill them. Maybe if the writers were required to actually watch previous episodes, there would be fewer incongruities.
I'm
really nervous about what we're going to be left with during the summer
hiatus. I could not agree more with the list of scenarios you don't
want to see in the finale. However, I'm a little low on optimism when it
comes to the potential direction in which the writers will take us.
Having
said all of this, I love this show in spite of the
inconsistencies, and I will watch faithfully until the bitter end. During the course of 9 seasons, these characters have endeared themselves to me. Jensen and Jared are phenomenal actors regardless of the storyline they are asked to portray and the evolution of their character and of them as actors has been a true pleasure to watch.
"Compassion without bumps". Well put! It would be so refreshing to get even a tiny taste of that...reminiscent of the earlier days when the brothers visibly cared about each other.
ReplyDeleteKripke definitely will not be coming back. For many reasons. There isn't even a chance. Same with Ben Edlund.
ReplyDeleteThese are the only recurring characters left alive.
ReplyDeleteCrowley, Metatron, Gadreel, Garth, Professor Morrison, Alpha Vampire, Ghostfacers, Ben.
Jody, Linda, Charlie, Krissy, Hannah, Becky, Amelia, Lisa.
Jensen said the Mark has been affecting Dean much in the same way as a low dose steroid, gradually amping up his aggression.
ReplyDeleteAzazel was way overly-powered for his own good, and can be viewed as being even more powerful than the likes of Lilith, Alastair and Crowley, so why would it be illogical for Azazel to take control of a reaper? I'm not saying Tessa is exactly like an angel, but with a reaper being some sort of offset, I'm sure there are guidelines that are much different. Look at the Rit Zien for example, no angel wings when he was stabbed by the angel sword.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I did my own research and it was the reaper in "Faith" was was seen by people alive and well. Andrew Dabb didn't write that episode.
Agreed. Also, Dean had no other way to contact Tessa in "Appointment in Samarra". At least with this case, he was flat out told what Tessa has been doing around town. It's it that much of a stretch now that Dean can walk up to Tessa after being told where she'd be?
ReplyDeleteIt was something that the writers thought would be cool when they had yet to really flesh out the mythos about any species, really. Azazel himself way portrayed as being WAY too powerful for his own good.
ReplyDeleteWith regards to the reaper in "Faith," people will say, "Well, they could see the reaper because they were about to die." When really, they weren't dying a natural death, they were being killed by the reaper, and it chose to reveal itself to the people it was killing.
ReplyDeleteAnd in the same episode Tessa is shown to both not have a corporeal body and a physical one, since she was able to be possessed by Azazel.
ReplyDeleteNo, I believe Sam saw the reaper when it killed the pastor's wife, as well as the pastor's wife herself before the reaper killed her. And didn't the runner and the swimmer even spot the reaper?
ReplyDeleteThey never cut to back to him when the reaper is killing the woman. Although he is looking straight ahead towards the reaper when it appears in the distance, whether he sees the reaper is up for interpretation.
ReplyDeleteI freely admit that I am only about halfway through with the review, but a few things seem to be pretty clear.
ReplyDeleteFirst, (just to get it out of the way) the writers hate female characters in the universe of their show, and do whatever they feel they need to to kill them off. I am sure that when story ideas run low, one by one, ever female monster will need to be put down, and every human will meet with a foul end. I am surprised the sheriff has lasted this long, I give her one or two more occurrences..
Second, Sam and Dean are from a mixed marriage. Sam takes after the Men of Letters side of the family, and Dean takes after the hunter side. The Blade and The Mark work together along with Dean's killer instincts. Cain was only mellow because he had been separated from the blade for quite a while. Flashbacks have shown us he was a killing machine before he got talked into getting rid of The Blade by his wife (who promptly died after serving her purpose).
Also, Metatron should have never been a villain, but should have just been used creatively from time to time, like Death. Having him be the writers surrogate in the story was just their way of rubbing the audience's nose in their just writing what they pleased for their own self righteous purposes.
Finally, the only reasons for Cas reluctantly building an army only to have them disperse like a wisp of smoke just before the ending was just Metatron (the writers) giving him something to do before the end of the season without it getting in the way of the finale.
Thank you!!! I tried to explain this in the other review but apparently only a select few get that reapers are angels. Finally I have found someone that gets it..
ReplyDeleteNice to know there are a few fans out there with an open mind. I just don't get this mantra of 'Reapers's are not angels'. Supernatural and it's writers past and present follow folklore and the bible for their story lines. I'm an atheist but jeez even I know reapers are angels.
ReplyDeleteOn this show, they are NOT angels. They have never been angels until a man screwed up their mythology and refused to acknowledge his mistake. If reapers are angels, then why was Tessa afraid of angels and unaffected by the angel sigil?
ReplyDeleteReapers are not angels.
Tessa was never afraid of the angels, she just told Dean not to trust them, she in no way showed any fear of angels in "Death Takes a Holiday."
ReplyDeleteWho are you talking about? I've looked at all the writers that are on Twitter and none of them make any reference to what you are saying.
ReplyDeleteThere's also the whole angels not being a loud on Earth for 2,000 years thing, people have been saying about the reapers. And to that I say cupids.
ReplyDeleteSeriously you and I think alike. I agree with everything you said. There is dumbing down Sam when the plot needs it and there is making Sam a complete imbecile, when he didn't take the blade or hide it from Dean.
ReplyDeleteThe dictatorship scene: like I said before,I was really expecting Sam standing up for himself, because that is what he is doing all season after he learned his brother helped an angel to take his autonomy. He was punishing Dean because of it, but suddenly Sam is a wuss and a teenager. Frustrating indeed.
Y'all keep talking about canon, I just want to know what canon you're talking about? Canon has been DEAD since Carver took over. As far as the writers and Carver are concerned they just started a whole new series(and BTW that is the way I am looking at it now) and don't care about what happened the first GOOD years. No I don't like it, and the show is just a husk of what it used to be, but I will watch as long as Jared & Jensen stay around.
ReplyDeleteGood review, but don't understand if there is this much wrong with the ep, how you can put Dabb at the top of Carver's writers, I know there are not that many good ones left, but really Dabb at the top? I would put most of the blame on Carver and Singer, they control the direction the show goes and it has not been in the right direction. ;)
ReplyDeleteTo me Metatron is just crazy and that is what makes him scary, never knowing what he will do. I do enjoy the character because he IS so batsh*t crazy.
Only the people the Reaper was after could see him. When Sam was trying to help the guy, Sam could not see the reaper.
ReplyDeleteThat is not a fair statement. YED was a very interesting and good big bad (unlike Metatron), very powerful; yes, but that made the Winchesters' goal interesting and worthy for the viewers to invest in. Like all of the big bads, he underestimated the Winchesters and got killed (pride goes before the fall, they say.
ReplyDeleteAzazel possessing Tessa did not eliminate any supernatural species, trash any character or canon, give irrelevance to another iconic character (Death), or diminish one of the two evils on Earth -- the angels themselves who are supposed to be God's warriors, but demons are now more powerful than them..
By making Tessa an angel, these writers have put the entire series into fanfic territory. Anything they come up with from here on out coincides with fanfic rules, meaning anything goes.
Whoever wrote TD. I'm not on Twitt error but I remember reading g about it because viewers confronted him about the whole rogue thing.
ReplyDeleteSo, don't trust herself?!?!
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure why you insist on saying the mythology wasn't drastically changed, but I'm not going to argue with you about it.
The backstory of the mark is a bit murky. If I recall correctly Cain
ReplyDeletereceived it to keep his arrogant brother out of hell, which was a noble
act. Cain himself appeared very calm and in control the first time we
met him, and when he gave the mark to Dean, for several episodes after
that Dean was calm too.
I want to defend poor Abel here. First Cain murdered him, so you can't call him a reliable narrator. Here's Cain's story Abel wasn't talking to God. He was talking to Lucifer. Lucifer was gonna
make my brother into his pet. I couldn't bear to watch him be
corrupted, so I offered a deal -- Abel's soul in heaven for my soul in
hell. He didn't ask Abel what Lucifer was saying. He didn't find out if Abel was telling Lucifer to go jump in a lake. We really don't know what Abel was doing, except through the eyes of the guy who decided to kill him. We do know from Cain's story that Lucifer WAS GOING to make Abel his pet, so Abel hadn't done anything to make that happen. Yes, he was talking to Lucifer, but we have seen that telling Lucifer to go away didn't have much effect at all. Sam said he'd kill himself rather than say yes to Lucifer and Lucifer said he'd just bring Sam back. So even if Abel said "no thanks" Lucifer would continue talking. Cain decided Abel was too weak. Cain decided the only way to save Abel was to kill him, as opposed to talking to him,or telling their parents so everyone could stage an intervention. I just don't see Abel was arrogant in any of this.
http://www.innsmouthfreepress.com/blog/retro-recap-and-review-supernatural-1-12-faith/
ReplyDeleteIt shows a picture of Sam looking at the reaper.
I think it could have worked either way, but even with Dean calling Tessa, a reaper, an angel, it doesn't go against even the introduction of angels back in first season's "Faith".
ReplyDeleteHave a link of the writer saying he didn't understand the difference? Or just making stuff up?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.innsmouthfreepress.com/blog/retro-recap-and-review-supernatural-1-12-faith/
ReplyDeleteHe saw the reaper killing the pastor's wife.
It's okay if you don't want to accept it, no one is trying to make you.
ReplyDeleteReapers are an offset of angels. You're not going to get the nightmare-inducing Djinn to talk about the other kind of Djinn and said "You must fear us" if one were to talk about the other Djinn and not themselves.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, but I give credit to narrative, which becomes canon, and not the 'what if's and maybe's.' What if's, maybe's, and could be's are nothing more than fanwanking. I do not want to see Cain going to talk to Adam and Eve, or any reality intervention on Supernatural and I don't want to have to dream up that scenario in my head to disparage or justify any characters story.
ReplyDeleteI am reading this post as you are saying Abel not being arrogant is a smoke screen for saying that Sam was not arrogant when he chose Ruby and the demon blood over every single other character in S4.
The problem with Metatron isn't that he is crazy; it's that the writers have made him God by having him write his own story with him as the hero. That pretty much means that the writers can do anything they wish to do with every character in the show and with all of the canon of the show, meaning there are no boundaries within which they have to stay while supposedly telling a season's story. That puts the whole thing into fan fiction territory.
ReplyDeleteI'm delighted that you enjoy the reviews and decided to comment here. I write these reviews for the comments because I love reading other people's takes on each episode outside the character/pairing obsessed chambers of the fandom and the cheerleader filled official pages.
ReplyDeleteYet theres the souls of people roaming the earth with no place to rest in peace. Probably at some point they will become angry spirits they will have to battle later.
That's a valid reason. However we have no idea what Metatron will do when he takes the angels back to heaven and opens the gates. Chances are he would let the souls in because, as I remember, those souls acted like power sources for the place.
The problem isn't just that Dean has no obvious reason for going after Metatron. It's that he has no personal reason to do it. If they had built on the Dean+Cas friendship this season, and really sold the idea that Dean cared about Cas, then they could have used that as an excuse for why Dean hated Metatron so much. But they didn't. They started with Dean throwing Cas out of the bunker and kept them apart for most of the season. Now they don't have that tool to use.
I am no writer and english is not my primary language. Apologies if I don't something doesn't make sence.
You make perfect sense and your English is very good. Thank you again for leaving a comment and please feel free to do so again.
Yeah . . . I'm just making it up b/c I care that much!
ReplyDeleteI have no link. I remember reading about it last year after TD aired. Believe me or not. . . I don't care.
No link, no proof…you're making it up.
ReplyDeleteI don't accept it. And I esp. hate that Tessa's species was changed to bring her back to die a pointless death. Why was Tessa necessary in this episode? Any old angel could have been on a suicide mission, but it had to be Tessa?!?!? Who isn't even an angel?
ReplyDeleteThis entire regime is horrible, IMO.
Not in my mind.
ReplyDeleteReapers and angels are two different creatures and always were until last year when some writer made a mistake, and since the showrunner couldn't care less about the show, that mistake was never corrected.
You may still be enjoying Supernatural, which is good. I wish I could enjoy the show, but I see these canon failures as evidence of the decreasing quality of the show. This is one of the only shows I had a true, special love for, which is why it's been more difficult for me to outright drop. I would like to know how their story ends but this regime is making that next to impossible for me.
Again, if you enjoy the show, that's cool.
Once again, reapers can easily be an offset of angels when even going back to season one's "Faith", as well as a review was just made about how symbolic Tessa's death was to Dean.
ReplyDelete"Not in my mind. "
ReplyDelete*Bane's voice* Of course.
Also, when I see actual canon failures, maybe I'll start to hate the show as you seem to do.
And, once again, I disagree w/you. They were never angels until last year. That's facts. They were never presented as angels or had anything to do w/angels until last year.
ReplyDeleteIf you personally think that reapers should have always been angels, fine. At least acknowledge that they were NOT presented as angels. That's all I'm saying.
I also think you should reach Chris's review about the other problems this whole reaper/angel fiasco presents in this universe.
Well, you're seeing one now (the reaper/angel fiasco) that you're ignoring for some odd reason so I doubt it.
ReplyDeleteAs I said, if canon fails and retcons don't bother you, that's cool. This one has clearly bothered the majority of viewers, incl. those who review the show.
As I said, believe what you want. It's not my fault you don't remember the controversy on Twitter w/someone associated w/this show after that episode.
ReplyDeleteAgain, when I see a canon failure, I may hate the show as you do now.
ReplyDeleteYou're confusing the ideas of what is fact and what is not when you say "That's facts." without actually giving facts. "Faith" hints at reapers being angels of death, so why is it that much of a stretch if reapers are an offset of angels? They have their own rules and guidelines, and so do Cupids and Rit Zien, who's also angels.
ReplyDeleteAnd no, nothing is confirmed about Cupids needing a vessel, as for an example, the Cupid in "My Bloody Valentine". I'm sure you'll say the writer of that episode went on Twitter and spoke of that "mistake" too.
http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Reaper
ReplyDeleteNot that it matters but I am with you on this.
It is your fault for making crap up. Can't even admit you're trying to make stuff up either.
ReplyDeleteEugenie Ross-Leming and Brad Buckner don't even have Twitter accounts and lala can't even admit that she was making it up.
ReplyDeleteSweetie, I'm not making up anything. I remember reading about this. I'm not on Twitter so I can't provide you w/any links. It doesn't help that I can't remember who asked what Supernatural writer/producer about the angel-reaper lore. Maybe someone who does remember will come along w/some details.
ReplyDeleteThanks :-)
ReplyDeleteReapers have never been angels!
The writers of Taxi Driver do not have Twitter. You're making crap up already by saying the writer(just one) talked about the reaper/angel confusion when both writers of the episode do not have Twitter. Robbie Thompson does and he acknowledged his mistake from "Goodbye Stranger". The writers of "Taxi Driver" did not.
ReplyDeleteNope. Not making it up. It took me forever to find but I had the wrong episode, It wasn't TD. It was "I'm No Angel."
ReplyDeletehttp://fandomdebunker.tumblr.com/post/64860502869/regarding-chad-kennedy
Nothing about confusing reapers as angels are on there. This Chad Kennedy, who didn't even write "I'm No Angel" is suggesting that the idea to make reapers as angels was always an idea.
ReplyDeleteWhatever helps you sleep at night. Now, you know where I got what I was talking about. This guy claimed that reapers were always angels, and that he was going to come back w/the proof . . . instead he deleted his account. LOL!
ReplyDeleteI guess he couldn't find that proof, so I'm right. It has been fun playing and winning :-)
The first thought I had when I watched this scene was "What about Abel's side of the story?" The impression I got was that Cain and Dean are big brothers, so of course they think they know better. They didn't bond just because both are killers.
ReplyDeleteIt's an entirely fair statement. It's still makes no sense, no corporeal body in the beginning of the episode, but at the end she apparently has one that can be possessed by a demon.
ReplyDeleteReapers have not been eliminated, reapers are still reapers. They go around ferrying the souls to the afterlife. Nothing has changed with them.
Yes, don't trust what the angels have in store for him. I mean did Anna exactly trust the angels?
ReplyDeleteYou keep saying someone made a mistake, but it's clear it was actually a conscience decision by the show to change the reaper mythology.
ReplyDeleteThe show does that from time to time, from what Azazel's plan was to what Lilith's plan was to even angels dying in season 4. Retconning is nothing new, and in the grand scheme of the show, changing reapers into angels is no where near as bad as the three things I listed.
I think I know who she's talking about, there was a CW executive that's like a liaison with the show, mentioned the reaper/angel thing before he got chased off Twitter for saying Destiel wasn't going to happen.
ReplyDeleteBut yeah, the guy was not a writer.
Yes, I didn't get that part right, but he is (was?) connected w/the show I believe.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you remember that controversy too.
Touche :-)
ReplyDeleteI hated Anna so I try to forget her parts of the show. Haha.
We can just agree to disagree about this. I see it as a huge change in canon, and you do not. The world would be boring if we all agreed on everything!
Hmmm. . . . I guess I'd prefer to think it was an error rather than a conscious decision b/c making reapers into angels messes up - for me and many others it seems - seven years of established history. I don't think that is the best way to tell a genre show like this. If you can't trust canon, if everything changes on a whim, then everything is meaningless.
ReplyDeleteAt least that's how I see it. We can respectfully disagree. See, the reaper into angel thing is much more offensive to me than YED's and Lilith's plans changing, but we're different people so different things bother us, which is okay.
I would like to thank your for presenting your thoughts and opinions in a respectful way. That was much appreciated!
Yeah, he's a CW executive that acts as a liaison between the show and the network, I think. He's not a decision maker or anything.
ReplyDeleteIt was a retcon. But if I got pissed about every retcon the show made, I would have stopped watching back in season 4.
ReplyDeleteI loved Anna and was so happy to see the backseat of Baby being used. ;)
ReplyDeleteThe first ep of season 8 broke Sam's canon so badly that it will never be the show it was for me again. For me the last 2 years have just been a new series and I don't worry about past canon. A pox on Carver and Singer.
ReplyDeleteOk. Thanks! I just remember all the fuss about his reaper comments. I had forgotten about the Destiel stuff - probably b/c I don't ship them - until I read that site. People were upset w/him after that episode aired.
ReplyDeleteSeasons 1-7 back up the FACT that reapers were not presented as angels. You act as if I am the only person saying there's a change in the reaper mythology. I'm not. A LOT of people agree the mythology's changed. And not just on this site. On various sites across the fandom.
ReplyDeleteI didn't mention anything about Cupid (and don't remember much if anything that was said about him) so I'm not sure what you're talking about.
Oh no!! Don't remind me :-)
ReplyDeleteSorry, but I just hated the fact of an angel having sex. I've always found that squicky. It didn't help that JA had zero chemistry w/the actress playing Anna. One minute they're talking, the next Anna is like, "You wanna have sex?" Dean shrugs his shoulders and is like, "Sure. Why not?"
Haha! I know that's not the right dialogue, but that's how it felt to me!
I understand. It is different for everyone, and we all have our own unique breaking points.
ReplyDeleteThere were no massive canon changes that truly bothered me until this reaper/angel deal and Bad Boys but that's different post for a different day. Granted, I hated how John steadily became a worse father over the years, but Adam didn't bother me. I thought the whole Cupid set up John/Mary thing was stupid, but again, I wasn't incensed by it. And to be honest, I wasn't upset at TD last year. I didn't like the episode, but the rogue reaper thing didn't bother me that much.
For whatever reason, I am really bothered by this angel/reaper deal. I didn't like it in INA, and I hated it here. To me, it would be like Death returning but as a shapeshifter instead of an angel. That's how I see this angel/reaper fiasco.
But like I said, we all have things that annoy us. This happens to be mine. Apparently, yours occurred back in S4. Thanks for acknowledging it as a complete retcon though.
That is definitely one way to look at it. There are the Supernatural years(1-7) and the Carver years (8-10).
ReplyDeleteOr black smoke can inhibit the manifestation of the reaper.
ReplyDeleteI'm not going to argue with you about it. Procreating werewolves, not influenced by the moon in any manner, reapers are angels and can be seen by anyone, not establishing any rules for the stories they write, having each episode's story drive the characters, instead of the characters driving the season's plot, making Metatron God by the power of the pen means the writers can do anything they want (that's fanfic territory). All of that leaves the viewers robots watching whatever each writer comes up with and not actively following the story as it unfolds. The only active part the viewers have is dreaming up their own interpretations for what is going on or filling in the blanks because the writers have failed to outline the rules within which they are telling a story and do their jobs properly.
Many are okay with that and don't hold the writers accountable. I am not okay with it, and I do hold them accountable. I want to be actively engaged in a story and how it affects the Winchesters, not guessing at what the writers mean and what is going on.
Might be lazy writing but it started to expand and get worse later into the season.
ReplyDeleteThis is more or less true and I did notice it in Annie more than Tinman, particularly because of Sam's reactions. I'm mostly comparing it to Sam's blood addiction in season 4 (and later 5) that was a running theme throughout the season. No matter if we were in a mythology or a monster of the week episode, it was always there in the background. The writers and actors made sure to remind us of it in subtle ways. Dean's MoC transformation on the other hand seems to be on a sine wave instead of a steady climb.
They have written off or killed all of the fan favorite characters and for what reason? Why wouldn't they want a supporting cast for potential future episodes?
The showrunners and writers seem to have a thing for bringing back earlier characters. They announce it with fanfare in interviews and on social media, then kill off the returned character nearly 2/3 of the time. What I don't get is not just the massacre, but the fascination with pulling characters out of the trunk and dangling them in front of the fans, as if this is a rock concert and those are veteran artists we've been dying to see. Personally if the story is good I don't care if it's only got new faces, and if it's bad I don't want a past favorite to be involved in it.
As for the angels, nearly everyone is sick of them and what's worse is they went from serious to brain dead comic-relief characters.
There was probably no one who loved the angels more than I did in seasons 4-6, and if even I can't stand them anymore it means they have sunk to impressive lows. What saddens me most is that the only way to remedy the disaster is to take them off the show which means I will have to mourn the loss of those great and powerful creatures and never get them back.
Really liked the direction of him being human and possibly becoming a hunter early on in season 9 but once he got his Grace back he became the boring Castiel we no longer want.
I wished I could say the same thing but human Castiel this season was as boring as stolen grace Castiel to me. I was excited about an identity struggle with him coupled with a drive to fix what he inadvertently caused. Instead I got toothpaste jokes and Cas running after women.
Thanks for the fanfiction recommendations. I'll take a look at those. My major problem is though , since I started studying writing I'm plagued with the side effect of not being able to enjoy most unpublished work. I'm desperate for well written material that also has a good story.
Everyone working on Supernatural right now is phoning it in other then maybe the actors who still seem to care about the show and the fans (going by video interviews I see of them).
I hate to say it but it might be the ratings. Back when the show was struggling they ran a tight ship and produced excellent stuff. Now that Supernatural is the most watched show on the CW and gets a prime time spot during the week they put minimum effort and still get good ratings. Bloodlines had the best A18-34 index for example. It's like people watch anything, even if they dress Sam and Dean in monkey costumes and have them dance around the set.
Also why have we not seen Cain again? First Born was one of the best episodes of season nine and it was because the actor played Cain so damn well. Was really hoping to see him again.
Who knows? Misha is a regular and he was only in a handful of episodes this season. Why won't they use good actors on the show but bring back the Ghostfacers and Garth is a mystery.
I wish I could "thumbs up" articles! Great post, Tessa!
ReplyDelete*Blushes* Thank you!
There is subtle, and then there's stalling for the sake of stalling to drag out a story. IMO, we're seeing more of the latter than any purposeful storytelling.
Amen, I said in another comment that it was presented so minimally I didn't even suspect it to be anything more than a minor storyline, until Blade Runners.
I told someone a few weeks back that it was hard for me to get all jazzed up and worried about the Mark when none of the characters are worried or concerned.
Same here. When Sam was soulless or on demon blood Dean strived to fix him every episode. Now Sam only mentions the blade every once in a while and gives up as soon as Dean snaps at him, and Castiel doesn't even seem to notice anything.
I have is I have seen Dean viciously kill before (S2), viciously beat up people before (S6), and be depressed/melancholy (S2-5), so how am I supposed to know if what I'm seeing (i.e., the Thinman kill, the vamp kill) is a result of the Mark or just typical Dean behavior?
Exactly. This is what I mean in Gripe #7. Before, when it was Sam or Cas, we could at least look at Dean and judge by his reaction whether the other person't behavior was a result of their affliction that had to be stopped. Now we can't tell, and it's throwing the fandom into a spin. One person may say something Dean did was because of the mark. Another would jump down their throat because they believe it was Dean being Dean and acting tough or standing up for himself.
Is Dean drinking in the bar or staring at his reflection in the bathroom supposed to be telling me something? If so, what? Is Dean in a bloodlust? Is he sad? Angry? Indifferent?
Yes, absolutely agree.
If Sam is so concerned about the Blade and its effect on Dean, can someone please explain to me why he did not keep it w/him?
Because that would make things too complicated for the writers. It's a situation similar to Gripe #6 in which Castiel refuses to make his case because it would present a roadblock in the path the writers intend to take the plot. Sam and Cas have to become handicapped so Carver's minions could write their story with minimal effort.
The Dean dictatorship scene: I found that entire scene to be very off. Seeing Dean bounce from being very upset to completely chill was just weird.
I was waiting for Castiel to ask him what that was all about but he once again acted like he was completely in his own world (the way he's been acting this entire season) and asks Dean if he still distrusts him. Seriously what is with these two and trust? It's like the writers can't come up with a better excuse to create friction between them.
We all knew Cas wasn't going to kill Dean.
We don't know with these writers. I guess I was so sure they would screw it up and make Cas completely OOC that I was actually surprised it went the other way.
Of course I knew he wouldn't 'kill' Dean but I was expecting something like him making an attempt and being stopped by someone or something. It would have been a perfect excuse to split him and the brothers up which is what they love to do.
I know there are not that many good ones left, but really Dabb at the top?
ReplyDeleteWho would you put at the top? Glass and his ego that's so big he inserts things from his own life into his scripts, then brags about it? Thompson who took it one step further and inserted a gender-swapped version of himself called Charlie? Berens who wrote the yawn fest called Captives? Or the canon crushing dreadful duo? The picking has become so slim I had to go with the choice I disliked the least.
I think what Percy is demonstrating though is how bad exposition is because it's always one character's point of view. When one uses a character as the narrator of big chunks of the story they expose the story to the possibility of the character lying. The narrative could be retconned anytime later with that excuse, resulting in an unreliable canon.
ReplyDeleteAs far as Castiel go, I will admit that is kind of a blind spot. Where do we take his character now? The writers have struggled with this very question and to be honest, I myself am not sure what they should do with him moving forward. What would you like to see them do with Castiel?
ReplyDeleteTBH I had a better idea in the previous seasons than I have now. They've done such irreparable damage to his character that I'm not sure what his internal conflict is anymore to come up with a story for him.
After season 6 my choice had always been to make Castiel so guilt ridden he would refuse to use his powers for any reason, then have him travel with the boys and work on cases ( Free Will all the way.) His struggle would be to resist using his powers even when the boys need him and their struggle regarding him would be accepting the fact that Castiel is no longer an easy way out and they need to stop seeing him as a handy tool and start accepting him as a friend.
Anyways that was my idea but like I said, the writers pretty much wiped out everything about Castiel's inner story this season and gave him new troubles and goals that changed from episode to episode so I don't think my plot idea works anymore.
Is that a bad thing or a good thing?
ReplyDeleteI wonder if the writing quality is down not because the writers are bad writers but instead because maybe they themselves are equally bored of the angel/demon stuff. Maybe they are both tired of the same plotlines as well as running out of good angel/demom stories to tell.
ReplyDeleteI honestly believe that if they ended the angel/demon plots and started a completely new story (ie: Men of Letters perhaps with the nazi necromancer arc) that they themselves would be both more excited to write better episodes but would also have some better ideas.
I think the quality of the show would greatly improve even with the same showrunner and writers if they completely revamped the show with a fresh new story. It might not ever be able to reach Kripke level quality again but could be a lot more interesting and better written then what we got the last few seasons.
That was always my problem with every character. Every writer writes the characters differently to the point where they characters act irregular all the time. This bothered me about Metatron. One episode he is talking about everything being part of his story and how in control he is and then the next time we see him he doesn't even mention creating the story or anything. The characters are all acting different every episode. Completely inconsistent across the board.
ReplyDeleteOK, you pick the lesser evil, I can understand that. lol
ReplyDeleteIsn't that Carver's job, keeping the story running smoothly and moving forward. Wonder if he even reads the scripts. Loved most of his eps but don't think he was up for show runner.
ReplyDeleteI thought Cain was used as an exposition character, although Tim O. did a great job while doing that, but I note your point about unreliable canon. The problem is, though, that the canon has been trashed so badly by these writers that it is all unreliable now....and that brings me back to my point of the audience ends up putting their own spin on everything by filling in the blanks.
ReplyDeleteThe level of exposition these writers use is way beyond what should be used, but it seems that they either don't know how to put sub-text in and rely on the actors to give it the meaning intended, or they think the audience is stupid and need the exposition to explain things clearly.
Exactly my problem with Cas -- his character has been ruined and they are making up stories for him just to be on the show, because he purpose ended in S4. Cas keeps the angel story going, and after how they depicted angels this year, I need Cas to be gone so that the angels will be gone.
ReplyDeleteThey did the same thing with Bobby; ruined his character to the point that I was not upset when the finally killed him off -- and I loved Bobby. They were on the verge of doing the same thing with Crowley for two season, but I have not got a read on him this season to say what is going on with the character now.
Yeah. Metatron was first depicted as a lover of books and as a writer, but in this episode, he was spouting quotes from movies.
ReplyDelete"Disturbing to whom? The vessel? I'm sure cupid doesn't care since none of the other angels did."
ReplyDeleteSo you don't find the idea disturbing? Well then, I suppose Lucifer should have taken off his clothes and walked around while his vessel was deteriorating. And then also with Cupids, they have to be asked to be showed to humans. Sound familiar?
"I'm sorry. I don't even consider Taxi Driver canon. That was the most canon disrespect I had seen from any writer and those two should be fired for that episode alone. Thank God I wasn't writing the Gripe Review then or my arms would have fallen off."
"Then how come no one chains reapers in order to stop them from reaping their loved ones?"
You really want to see such a boring storyline? That's hypothetical just like asking why Zachariah never kept repeatedly going back in time over and over just to finally reach a moment in the past where Dean would say yes to Michael without having to use Adam(since we know Zachariah isn't afraid to go to extremes to get what he wants).
"Why were they introduced as such unstoppable forces before?"
"Faith" sure didn't seem like they were so unstoppable with being trapped by necromancy.
"Why did Alistair need a special scythe to kill them?"
Death's scythe isn't a "special" scythe. It's what can kill Death himself so of course it would kill reapers, and also, why bring up angel swords when it was the next episode that introduced the episode? Blame it on the writers for not introducing the angel sword an episode earlier.
"Why did Sam and Dean need to temporarily die to see them?"
Because reapers didn't choose to let Sam and Dean see them otherwise.
"And why would Tessa disappear in appointment in Samarra as soon as Dean takes off Death's ring?"
Because she chose too.
"Well, they didn't used to with angels."
And they didn't use to with demons either.
"Or they could have left that cheesy line out of the script."
No, the script was needed because they had to use an angel that Dean could connect to and understand why the angels are becoming suicide bombers. Two birds with one stone by using Tessa and killing her off in a manner that is almost symbolic for having Dean being the killer, even if it was forced upon since Tessa stabbed herself into the First Blade.
Benny isn't necessarily "alive".
ReplyDeleteI completely agree and loved your comments so much I saved them to my computer.
ReplyDeleteI also completely agree that I want Dean to overcome these on his own through his own strength of character because I know he has it within him to do this.
Plus, the current writers have yet to make me believe any of the last minute end of the season speeches, despite Jensen's and Jared's excellent performances. It's just not believable that after months of being at odds, a quick 5 minute (or less) speech makes everything okay, mainly because the fans (or writers, I'm not sure which) can't stand the boys to be at odds over the hiatus, despite the fact that they will tear the relationship up at the beginning of the next season.
I disagree based on previous experience. They tried to step away from the angel/demon storyline in season six, first by introducing the Campbells, then the alphas, then the Mother of All. They failed to create a compelling story on all counts and had to run back to the angels, and sacrifice Castiel in order to save the season. Then in season 7, possibly thinking Castiel was the problem, they dropped him too and spent the bigger part of the season with no angels at all before they hit another creative dead-end and had to fish Cas out of the lake. They had their chance and they messed it up. The problem isn't the subject matter, it's the staff. It's like if The Walking Dead writers complained about having to write about zombies all the time and wanted to writer about something else. It'sis their jobs FGS, what they are paid for. If they can't come up with interesting stories using the show's mythology they have no business writing for it.
ReplyDeleteWe can agree to disagree.
ReplyDelete"God appearing in next week's finale to end the angel/demon war would make for a fantastic closure to he arc"
ReplyDeleteThat would be a terrible ending. There is a reason why the trope "deus ex machina" is so hated - it means that the writers have put themselves in a corner and can't think of a reasonable way out, so they pull something out of their asses. So far, the entire series has been about humans struggling against much greater forces - ending it with a divine intervention would render it meaningless.
Sorry, but that explanation doesn't fly. Reapers have been to different from angels for too long for it to be anything but a retcon.
ReplyDelete1. The "angel of death" thing was mentioned as a part of lore - not enough to establish that reapers are, in fact, a sub-species of angels.
2. Their spiritual form could be seen by people about to die - but seeing the angels would burn a human's eyes out.
3. They are not affected by angel wardings.
4. They follow orders from Death - and they stayed neutral in the apocalypse.
5. Every time someone lists "things this weapon can kill" - reapers and angels are listed separately.
6. Until Taxi-Driver, they didn't need to possess humans.
7. The last time Dean wanted to contact Tessa, he had to almost die and say a spell. Now, he just walked up to her in front of a theatre.
8. Azazel was able to possess Tessa - but demons possessing angels makes no sense at all.
9. We've seen a reaper die before - in season 4. He didn't leave the huge wing-shadow. Nor did the one in Taxi-driver.
Their similarities are:
1. They can die by the angel sword - but then, so can demons.
2. Their dying gives off the similar looking light as angels - but that's not enough to prove they are angels.
Reapers and angels have been so different for so long that saying they are "angels with a different set of rules" isn't enough - they are different altogether and making them the same at this stage is a retcon.
"I'm pretty sure the Cupid didn't need a vessel..."
ReplyDeleteHe did.
"That is changed in "Taxi Driver", so it wouldn't even be this episode's fault for that change."
The question isn't whether they can have a vessel - it is whether they NEED one.
It was established before that angels can't work in their natural forms - it'd burn the eyes out of anyone who saw them. Reapers, on the other hand, could do their job without a vessel. The dude in taxi-driver had a vessel because he was a rogue reaper. But why did Tessa need a vessel?
"They can be seen by someone..."
Their spiritual form is only seen by someone who is about to die (or someone about to get a second dose of life). Binding by spell and necromancy wouldn't require seeing them.
Also, while binding a reaper has been shown to be possible, binding an angel by spell hasn't been done on the show.
Dean calling Tessa and angel is the retcon we are talking about. Other than that, there is no evidence that Tessa is an angel. There is a real possibility that angel armies are now recruiting reapers as well.
"Well, they didn't used to with angels. That's what the holy oil was for,
ReplyDeletebut I guess they figured they pissed all over canon once why not have a
go at it again."
Actually, this point is defensible. They found the handcuffs in MoL bunker. They didn't have those before.
"Then you shouldn't consider "Faith" canon either when Sam saw the reaper at the very end killing the pastor's wife."
ReplyDeleteSam didn't see the reaper then - he just saw the wife dying.
"Because reapers didn't choose to let Sam and Dean see them otherwise."
But according to this episode, the choice is not up to them.
"No, the script was needed because they had to use an angel that Dean
could connect to and understand why the angels are becoming suicide
bombers."
I agree - the script needed a pre-established angel for Dean to connect to, but they didn't have one. So, they retconned Tessa into one.
I don't think they were described as a "subset of angels" prior to last episode.
ReplyDeleteThe reference cited for that statement is episode 9.22 - which indicates that the edit was made after that episode.
" I'm not saying Tessa is exactly like an angel, but with a reaper being
ReplyDeletesome sort of offset, I'm sure there are guidelines that are much
different."
An offset with no similarities is not an offset at all, but something different.
" Look at the Rit Zien for example, no angel wings when he was stabbed by the angel sword."
That's because a lot of the angels lost their wings in the fall. We didn't see the angel wings with Bartholomew or the ones killed last episode either.
"Also, I did some research and re-evaluated season one a bit earlier and
it was the reaper in "Faith" that was seen by people alive and well."
Nope, he was only seen by those he was going to affect.
Except, unlike angels, reapers make an appearance in many other folklore as well. Something that was mentioned in Supernatural.
ReplyDelete"Faith" did not hunt at reapers being angels.
ReplyDeleteHaving different rules and guidelines wouldn't change who they are fundamentally. Cupids and Rit Zien served heaven - the reapers did not.
"Faith" talked about how the Christian lore considered reapers as angels - more specifically, how THE GRIM REAPER was considered an angel. But we know for a FACT that he isn't one. Calling them angels doesn't make it so.
ReplyDelete"The Cupid in "My Bloody Valentine" was portrayed as an angel that didn't need a vessel."
No, he wasn't.
"Faith" indeed hinted at reaper beings angel with even the reference of THE Grim Reaper being an angel of death. Dean making the statement of many reapers and not just one doesn't contradict the idea that reapers can be ANGELS of death.
ReplyDeleteAnd how do we know who the reapers serve? We only know what their jobs are, much as Rit Zien's job is to "relieve" dying/injured angels.
"An offset with no similarities is not an offset at all, but something different."
ReplyDeleteOh really? Death by the angel sword, and a bright blue light when they do die. Teleportation. Able to stop time. Telekinesis. That's about enough similarities as much as differing the two kinds of Djinn as the only thing that makes them similar are tattoos over their bodies.
"That's because a lot of the angels lost their wings in the fall. We didn't see the angel wings with Bartholomew or the ones killed last episode either."
HUGE assumption to just say that's the reason why the Rit Zien didn't have his wings, especially when there were still angels that had their wings, albeit tarnished like Gadreel as seen in "Devil May Care".
In "Stairway to Heaven", what wings did you expect to see after their deaths? In "King of the Damned", we did see the wings of the dead angels.
"Nope, he was only seen by those he was going to affect."
I didn't know Sam was dying when the reaper killed the pastor's wife.
"Sam didn't see the reaper then - he just saw the wife dying."
ReplyDeleteSam did see the reaper right there killing the pastor's wife.
"But according to this episode, the choice is not up to them."
How do you know? The episode didn't establish this at all.
"I agree - the script needed a pre-established angel for Dean to connect to, but they didn't have one. So, they retconned Tessa into one."
I'm glad they didn't retcon it.
"He did."
ReplyDeleteNo, he did not. No angel has ever been shown to have taken a vessel and then become invisible until asked to him himself. The Cupid having to show himself contradicts the idea that he even needs a vessel.
"The question isn't whether they can have a vessel - it is whether they NEED one."
And I believe they don't. They obviously can still appear as humans, otherwise explain "Abandon All Hope…" and "Two Minutes to Midnight" when Castiel and Crowley notices hordes of reapers as human beings. If that was the angel and demon respectively seeing through the veil, why would the reapers be looked at human beings? One can easily suggest that even when Sam and Dean see them, it's not vessels but just created bodies for these reapers, like the Cupid.
"Their spiritual form is only seen by someone who is about to die"
Which has been changed already in the past.
"Also, while binding a reaper has been shown to be possible, binding an angel by spell hasn't been done on the show."
"Meta Fiction" says otherwise where Sam and Dean were able to blind Gadreel through handcuffs.
"Dean calling Tessa and angel is the retcon we are talking about."
And I continue to not understand people calling that a retcon. There's many similarities to angels as well as even in "Faith" when it could easily be suggested that all reapers are angels of death.
"Christian lore doesn't state someone called "The Grim Reaper" as an angel."
ReplyDeleteYes it does. From wiki - "In Jewish tradition, Death was referred to as the Angel of Death (Malach HaMavet) or the Angel of dark and light stemming from the Bible and Talmudic lore. The Bible itself does refer to "The Angel of Death" when he reaps Egypt's firstborns."
"Also, yes, the Cupid was indeed portrayed as not needing a vessel as he was asked to show himself to Sam and Dean."
Nope - he was in a vessel. If he had been in his spiritual form, Sam and Dean's eyes would've burned out.
" We have never seen an angel that have taken a vessel and become invisible to the human eye. "
Yes, we have. Every time Cas was spying on the brothers in season six, he was invisible to them.
"Reapers do, and they don't need vessels either, unless you believe the
corporeal bodies seen in "Taxi Driver", "I'm No Angel" and "Stairway to
Heaven" are reapers using corporeal bodies."
Yes, reapers are using vessels then. The reaper who took Bobby looked different from the one in Taxi-Driver and yet they were supposed to be the same guy. Which indicates that he took a vessel.
""Faith" indeed hinted at reapers being angels with even the reference of THE Grim Reaper being an angel of death."
ReplyDeleteThat was a reference to the position of Death within the Cristian lore - not a factual statement about the show's mythology.
" Dean making the statement of many reapers and not just one doesn't contradict the idea that reapers can be ANGELS of death. "
No, but the fact that they were nothing like angels for 7.5 seasons does contradict the idea that reapers can be angels of death.
"Even THE Grim Reaper himself, Death, is seen by humans alive and well."
But he doesn't fall into the same category as the rest of the reapers.
"And how do we know who the reapers serve?"
Because it was made clear in seasons 4 and 6. They were not affiliated with heaven or hell, they had no stake in the apocalypse and they answer to Death who isn't affiliated with either.
"We only know what their jobs are, much as Rit Zien's job is to "relieve" dying/injured angels."
And their job tells us who they are affiliated with.
"1. The "angel of death" thing was mentioned as a part of lore - not enough to establish that reapers are, in fact, a sub-species of angels."
ReplyDeleteYou previously mentioned that this was Christian lore, and this is wrong as it has never been said that The Grim Reaper is the angel of death. This is the view of people looking at Christian lore and not knowing what's what. The angel of death has been viewed as actually being Michael or even Azrael, names that do not actually go along with SPN's mythos.
"2. Their spiritual form could be seen by people about to die - but seeing the angels would burn a human's eyes out."
Which has been changed, even in "Faith". Also, we know what reapers actually look like and being an offset of angels, it's quite ridiculous to say every single type of angel HAS to look like its the size of the Chrysler Building.
"3. They are not affected by angel wardings."
And being an offset of angels, why would they when they have their own guidelines and rules?
"4. They follow orders from Death - and they stayed neutral in the apocalypse."
Do they? Rogue reapers follow orders from Death? And can we firmly say Death created the reapers even? Why would Death even create reapers when God is meant to be the one who created everything as he personifies creation and life as much as Death personifies, well, death.
"5. Every time someone lists "things this weapon can kill" - reapers and angels are listed separately."
So are angels and archangels and nothing is much different from those two.
"6. Until Taxi-Driver, they didn't need to possess humans."
And nothing confirms that reapers need to. There's no proof that those were vessels.
"7. The last time Dean wanted to contact Tessa, he had to almost die and say a spell. Now, he just walked up to her in front of a theatre."
Because he knows Tessa is around that area and doing her "work".
"8. Azazel was able to possess Tessa - but demons possessing angels makes no sense at all."
Oh yes, the overly-powered demon that really had no limits or boundaries. SPN didn't have any of their stuff together at all from binding a reaper with necromancy to an overly-powered demon possessing a reaper to even other demons having to just bump against humans to possessing them. Really want that to be one of your reasons?
"9. We've seen a reaper die before - in season 4. He didn't leave the huge wing-shadow. Nor did the one in Taxi-driver."
And why would they?
You don't seem to get my point even for saying reapers as being an offset of angels doesn't mean they're going to be EXACTLY like angels.
"10. Sam and Dean didn't think angels existed till season 4. Yet they'd met reapers before."
But they know that reapers are a form of angels of death.
"11. Cas said in season 4 that angels haven't been active for 2000 years - but we know that reapers have been."
Explain Cupids. Explain "The Song Remains The Same".
And I have mentioned the similarities to angels and reapers and no one else, or you, have really changed my point of view that this is not a retcon.
"Yes it does. From wiki - "In Jewish tradition, Death was referred to as the Angel of Death (Malach HaMavet) or the Angel of dark and light stemming from the Bible and Talmudic lore. The Bible itself does refer to "The Angel of Death" when he reaps Egypt's firstborns.""
ReplyDeleteThat says nothing about connecting "The Angel of Death" to the cultured term of "The Grim Reaper". The Angel of Death is actually known as other names like Michael and Azrael. The term "The Grim Reaper" is not one of them.
"Nope - he was in a vessel. If he had been in his spiritual form, Sam and Dean's eyes would've burned out."
And you expect that's the only way an angel has to be shown if not in their true form? With the CW budget, I guess one could assume such, but when you assume…
The Cupid didn't need a vessel, but that was his form that he appears in. It's only speculation to say he took in a vessel. Look up cherubs and that's only an accurate take. Now look up seraph and how much of an image that is which is what Castiel and Zachariah are.
"Yes, we have. Every time Cas was spying on the brothers in season six, he was invisible to them."
Ahh, yes, I remember that. I still don't think of that being the same thing as The Cupid's example, though.
"Yes, reapers are using vessels then. The reaper who took Bobby looked different from the one in Taxi-Driver and yet they were supposed to be the same guy. Which indicates that he took a vessel."
They were not meant to be the same guy. What's your reasoning of this?
"That was a reference to the position of Death within the Cristian lore - not a factual statement about the show's mythology."
ReplyDeleteOnce more, this is inaccurate. The Grim Reaper is not a name for the Christian angel of death as that is Michael or Azrael.
"No, but the fact that they were nothing like angels for 7.5 seasons does contradict the idea that reapers can be angels of death."
Except they have never changed. We have never seen them being attacked by the angel sword until season eight and that's the only change besides a sector becoming rogue after the Apocalypse.
"But he doesn't fall into the same category as the rest of the reapers."
Why not? Bobby does refer to him as the "big daddy reaper".
"Because it was made clear in seasons 4 and 6. They were not affiliated with heaven or hell, they had no stake in the apocalypse and they answer to Death who isn't affiliated with either."
Nothing is made clear. The reapers do their jobs but nothing has been clear to who they serve, only what their jobs are.
Ben Braeden.
ReplyDelete"Oh really? Death by the angel sword, and a bright blue light when they
ReplyDeletedo die. Teleportation. Able to stop time. Telekinesis. That's about
enough similarities as much as differing the two kinds of Djinn as the
only thing that makes them similar are tattoos over their bodies."
Angel swords can kill a lot of other things as well. Demons can teleport and have telekinesis. The blue-death-light is the only thing so far that is exclusively common to reapers and that bit of retcon was only introduced only in season 9. The reaper who died in season 4 didn't leave any wing imprints and didn't give out any blue light.
The similarities are superficial at best and the differences are too many to be ignored.
"HUGE assumption to just say that's the reason why the Rit Zien didn't
have his wings, especially when there were still angels that had their
wings, albeit tarnished like Gadreel as seen in "Devil May Care"."
Its not an assumption. The angel who died in episode one did not leave the wing imprints either. Nor did the various angels who died in different massacres in episode 9. Bartholomew in episode 14, "captives", didn't leave any wing imprints either. Repeated mentions have been made of how the angels have lost their wings and most of them seem incapable of traveling via teleportation. Both Gadreel and Cas have to use cars.
You may not have been paying attention, but very few angels leave a wing imprint this season - and when they do, those wings appear tattered and broken. Saying that Ritzien have the special property of not leaving the wing imprints ever has no basis for it and using it as evidence that reapers are angels is even more far-fetched.
"In "Stairway to Heaven", what wings did you expect to see after their
deaths? In "King of the Damned", we did see the wings of the dead
angels."
No, we didn't. 4 angels died in "King of the Damned" and none of them left a shadow.
"I didn't know Sam was dying when the reaper killed the pastor's wife."
He wasn't. Which is why he didn't see the reaper.
So do angels.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel
"Sam did see the reaper right there killing the pastor's wife."
ReplyDeleteNo, he didn't.
"How do you know? The episode didn't establish this at all."
If it was up to them to disappear at will, then Tessa wouldn't have let Dean catch her.
"I'm glad they didn't retcon it."
Reapers weren't angels before - now they are. That's a retcon.
"No, he did not. No angel has ever been shown to have taken a vessel and
ReplyDeletethen become invisible until asked to show himself. The Cupid having to
show himself contradicts the idea that he even needs a vessel."
Yes he did. And Castiel has taken a vessel and become invisible when and as he wanted. Just like Cupid. It all fits.
"And I believe they don't. "
And I agree. Reapers don't need vessels. Angels do. Cupids do. Therefore, reapers are not angels. Simple logic.
"Which has been changed already in the past."
Not till season 8.
""Meta Fiction" says otherwise where Sam and Dean were able to blind Gadreel through handcuffs."
There is a difference between imprisoning and binding. Binding would require them to control Gadreel, which they could not do.
"And I continue to not understand people calling that a retcon. There's
many similarities to angels as well as even in "Faith" when it could
easily be suggested that all reapers are angels of death."
It is a retcon because there are way too many differences between the two categories. Who they serve, how they behave, how they operate, where their loyalties lie, how they die, the nature of their appearence etc. have all been so different that they've been regarded as separate species throughout the show's run. Saying they are the same now is retcon by definition.
"Angel swords can kill a lot of other things as well. Demons can teleport and have telekinesis. The blue-death-light is the only thing so far that is exclusively common to reapers and that bit of retcon was only introduced only in season 9. The reaper who died in season 4 didn't leave any wing imprints and didn't give out any blue light."
ReplyDeleteAngel swords can only kill anything related to Heaven and Hell. Only higher-powered demons can teleport as I believe, the only one we've seen doing this is Crowley and when he makes his minions do the same(correct me if I'm wrong). Also, one can suggest that when the scythe killed the reaper as well as it being part of a spell, the reaper wasn't meant to give off that blue light during death, as well as we have already discussed this: reapers are not going to be EXACTLY like angels and now die with the appearance of wings as they are NOT that kind of angel.
It is indeed a huge assumption to say the Rit Zien's wings were just broken off. He was very powerful already and could have at least tarnished wings as Gadreel who was powerful with tarnished wings. From what we've seen this season, we also see the weak angels who have no wings.
"No, we didn't. 4 angels died in "King of the Damned" and none of them left a shadow."
I don't recall any angels dying in that episode wing-less.
"He wasn't. Which is why he didn't see the reaper."
He must've when he did see the reaper.
Do you really go by Supernatural Wiki?
ReplyDeleteHeck, even if people don't agree with my views, I will never try to use a fan page wiki site to back up my ideas.
"No, he didn't."
ReplyDeletehttp://www.tvrage.com/Supernatural/episodes/304793
"If it was up to them to disappear at will, then Tessa wouldn't have let Dean catch her."
When Dean puts those handcuffs on her to bind her, she would have no choice.
"Reapers weren't angels before - now they are. That's a retcon."
Reapers were already mentioned as being angels of death. Not a retcon. We can keep this up all night if you want to, I'm not budging.
"Yes he did. And Castiel has taken a vessel and become invisible when and as he wanted. Just like Cupid. It all fits"
ReplyDeleteNo, The Cupid did not have a vessel. I even when on your beloved supernaturalwiki sit and it even says it's unconfirmed if Cupid had a vessel. Won't you trust the website you seem to go by?
Also don't think it's the same deal at all with Castiel being invisible and Cupid.
"And I agree. Reapers don't need vessels. Angels do. Cupids do. Therefore, reapers are not angels. Simple logic."
At least we agree with something; reapers don't need vessels, and what we have seen doesn't show such. They are only seen as "humans" simply because the writers got sloppy with this, even in season five when we have Castiel and Crowley looking through the veil and seeing reapers as nicely-dresssed humans.
"Not till season 1."
Now that's fixed, lol.
"There is a difference between imprisoning and binding. Binding would require them to control Gadreel, which they could not do."
Binding/imprisoning. That's the same word usage to me. In that case, where are you saying that Sam and Dean have ever bound angels or reapers? If you're calling those handcuffs imprisoning, then we have only seen them imprison angels and reapers. I'm confused with what you're trying to get to now.
"It is a retcon because there are way too many differences between the two categories. Who they serve, how they behave, how they operate, where their loyalties lie, how they die, the nature of their appearence etc. have all been so different that they've been regarded as separate species throughout the show's run. Saying they are the same now is retcon by definition."
I have yet to hear about so many differences between the two. They're obviously not going to be exactly the same as reapers have their own rules.
"You previously mentioned that this was Christian lore, and this is wrong
ReplyDeleteas it has never been said that The Grim Reaper is the angel of death. "
I've already given you the wiki reference that proves that I'm right.
"Names that do not actually go along with SPN's mythos."
It doesn't have to fit the mythos - just reference the lore. Not everything in the lore becomes a part of SPN mythology. For example, Sam and Dean discuss Christian lore talking about Grim Reaper as an angel, but reapers as angel was not a part of SPN mythology for until a retcon 8 seasons later.
"Which has been changed, even in "Faith"..."
We didn't see any angels in Faith and no-one who the reaper did not affect saw him either. If reapers were angels then seeing one's true form should burn every dying human's eyes out - it doesn't, so they aren't. The size itself is irrelevant.
"And being an offset of angels, why would they when they have their own guidelines and rules?"
Because if they are angels, then the rules applicable to angels should apply to them as well.
Your statement is like saying "Oranges are an offset of Apples - just with different rules Which is why they look different and feel different and taste different and grow on different trees. But otherwise, oranges are basically apples."
"Do they?.."
Yes. The answer is in the word "rogue". And who created them does not dictate who they follow - therefore that is irrelevant.
"So are angels and archangels..."
Archangels are not listed separately.
"And nothing confirms that reapers need to. There's no proof that those were vessels."
The fact that Bobby's reaper looked different in his corporeal form from the time he was in Bobby's head proves that it was a vessel.
"Because he knows Tessa is around that area and doing her "work"."
And if he can just catch a reaper at his work, then Dean should've gone to a hospital in season 6. He didn't need to give himself a heart-attack.
" Really want that to be one of your reasons?"
Sure do. It proves that reapers are a different species with their own set of rules and weaknesses and those are not applicable to angels or demons.
"You don't seem to get my point even for saying reapers as being an
offset of angels doesn't mean they're going to be EXACTLY like angels."
They're not ANYTHING like angels. Apples and Oranges. If the reapers were angels then the common basic characteristics applicable to all angels would be applicable to them as well.
"But they know that reapers are a form of angels of death."
Nope. They didn't categorize reapers as angels.
"Explain Cupids. Explain "The Song Remains The Same"."
Already done. Cas didn't need to know about either since angels were kept on a need-to-know basis.
"And I have mentioned the similarities to angels and reapers and no one
else, or you, have really changed my point of view that this is not a
retcon."
Your similarities are superficial and as long as you remain blind to the differences, no one will be able to convince you of the retcon.
"That says nothing about connecting "The Angel of Death" to the cultured
ReplyDeleteterm of "The Grim Reaper"..."
THE STATEMENTS ARE FROM A PAGE ABOUT GRIM REAPER. THAT'S THE CONNECTION.
"The Cupid didn't need a vessel, but that was his form that he appears
in. It's only speculation to say he took in a vessel. Look up cherubs
and that's only an accurate take. Now look up seraph and how much of an
image that is which is what Castiel and Zachariah are."
I did look up a "cherub" on the wiki and this is what I found:
"Cherubim feature at some length in the Book of Ezekiel. When they first appear in chapter one, when Ezekiel was "by the river Chebar", they are not called cherubim
until chapter 10, but he saw "the likeness of four living creatures".
(Ezekiel 1:5) Each of them had four faces and four wings, with straight
feet with a sole like the sole of a calf's foot, and "hands of a man"
under their wings. Each had four faces: The face of a man, the face of a
lion on the right side, the face of an ox on the left side, and the
face of an eagle. (Ezekiel 1:6-10)"
Since the cupid did not have those characteristics, my money is on a vessel.
"Ahh, yes, I remember that. I still don't think of that being the same thing as The Cupid's example, though."
So, you were proven wrong, but you still don't think its the same. Well, if you insist on being blind I can't show you the facts.
"They were not meant to be the same guy. What's your reasoning of this?"
It was the same guy. He said he was the reaper to reaped Bobby.
"I've already given you the wiki reference that proves that I'm right."
ReplyDeleteYou mean you proved that you were wrong. The pop culture name of "The Grim Reaper" has nothing to do with what Christian lore gives the name to the angel of death which is either Michael or Azrael.
"It doesn't have to fit the mythos - just reference the lore. Not everything in the lore becomes a part of SPN mythology. For example, Sam and Dean discuss Christian lore talking about Grim Reaper as an angel, but reapers as angel was not a part of SPN mythology for until a retcon 8 seasons later."
And it didn't fit with the mythos, so I hope that you know that you are continuing to prove your own self wrong by saying that SPN spoke about "Christian lore" with the name of the Grim Reaper.
Also, it is not a retcon.
"We didn't see any angels in Faith and no-one who the reaper did not affect saw him either. If reapers were angels then seeing one's true form should burn every dying human's eyes out - it doesn't, so they aren't. The size itself is irrelevant."
I have already shown you a link that showed a promo pic of Sam seeing the reaper.
"Because if they are angels, then the rules applicable to angels should apply to them as well."
Says who exactly? Why do reapers have to go by the same set of rules that angels do? Hellhounds are a form of demon, but they run by their own rules with being sentinels of death and the same applies with reapers.
"Yes. The answer is in the word "rogue". And who created them does not dictate who they follow - therefore that is irrelevant."
If they follow only one purpose, they wouldn't move on to become "rogues".
"Archangels are not listed separately."
Kali calls Gabriel's sword "an archangel's sword" when they look exactly the same.
"The fact that Bobby's reaper looked different in his corporeal form from the time he was in Bobby's head proves that it was a vessel."
No, that is incorrect. "Ajay"'s mannerisms were far different than Bobby's reaper. In fact, you're the first person I've actually spoke to that believes both were the same reaper and I'm baffled by it. Heck, if we're even going by with Tessa, the reaper in"Death's Door" should have looked the same going by that theory.
"And if he can just catch a reaper at his work, then Dean should've gone to a hospital in season 6. He didn't need to give himself a heart-attack."
And now Dean all of a sudden wanted to speak to any ol' reaper?
"Sure do. It proves that reapers are a different species with their own set of rules and weaknesses and those are not applicable to angels or demons."
And it also proves how overly-powerful the writers made a demon that shouldn't be so powerful. That is an awful reason, imo.
"They're not ANYTHING like angels. Apples and Oranges. If the reapers were angels then the common basic characteristics applicable to all angels would be applicable to them as well."
I'm going in circles here. I've brought up their similarities like three times already.
"Nope. They didn't categorize reapers as angels."
"Faith".
"Already done. Cas didn't need to know about either since angels were kept on a need-to-know basis."
Says who? Who said that Cupids were only on a need-to-know basis?
"Your similarities are superficial and as long as you remain blind to the differences, no one will be able to convince you of the retcon."
I can say the same thing about trying to bring up Azazel when the whole character was written to be more powerful than anything else we've seen.
In my mind, that Ben is dead too :)
ReplyDelete"Once more, this is inaccurate..."
ReplyDeleteOnce more, you are wrong. Try looking it up yourself. I've provided the info twice already.
"Except they have never changed. We have never seen them being attacked
by the angel sword until season eight and that's the only change besides
a sector becoming rogue after the Apocalypse."
It has been previously established that the angel sword can kill demons and hellhounds as well - so adding reapers to the list isn't a big deal. Also, I agree, there hasn't been much of a change in reapers - they are still as different form the angels as they ever were. Which is why calling them angels is a retcon.
"Why not? Bobby does refer to him as the "big daddy reaper"."
And angels call god their father. And demons call Lucifer their father. And Eve was the mother of all monsters. Clearly, being the father of a species doesn't mean you belong to that species.
"Nothing is made clear. The reapers do their jobs but nothing has been clear to who they serve, only what their jobs are."
It was made clear. Their job was to ferry souls and preserve the natural order and they served Death. Just because you blind yourself to facts doesn't mean the rest of us do.
Only the ones with Abrahamic roots.
ReplyDelete"THE STATEMENTS ARE FROM A PAGE ABOUT GRIM REAPER. THAT'S THE CONNECTION."
ReplyDeleteThat's not a connection. The Grim Reaper is NOT a term for Christian lore but you suspect that Sam was speaking of Christian lore on a reaper. The Grim Reaper as a name is a pop culture term for the angel of death, NOT Christian lore. I'd use all caps too, but I won't.
"Since the cupid did not have those characteristics, my money is on a vessel."
That is the seraph. Even SPN used that description as seraphs. Cherubs are commonly known as baby-like angels, which is why they used that similarity for their version of Cupids. I mean, I'm sure you'll want to be right.
"So, you were proven wrong, but you still don't think its the same. Well, if you insist on being blind I can't show you the facts."
How is that a fact?
"It was the same guy. He said he was the reaper to reaped Bobby."
Of course he would say that since he collected Bobby's soul after he finally moved on.
"Once more, you are wrong. Try looking it up yourself. I've provided the info twice already."
ReplyDeleteI know the information. CHRISTIAN lore speaks of Michael or Azrael as the angel of death, not some title of "The Grim Reaper". Know the difference between CHRISTIAN lore and pop culture before you say one thing is referring to CHRISTIAN lore.
I'm also glad you mentioned that there hasn't been much of a change with reapers, which is why it isn't a retcon.
"Clearly, being the father of a species doesn't mean you belong to that species."
And yet you suspect that Death created the reapers….
"It was made clear. Their job was to ferry souls and preserve the natural order and they served Death. Just because you blind yourself to facts doesn't mean the rest of us do."
Perserving the natural order does not mean they serve death. Fate preserves the natural order so does she serve Death too?
Angels are known as many other names, just like reaper in other folklore. In fact DEATH appears in folklore rather than the term REAPER.
ReplyDelete"Angel swords can only kill anything related to Heaven and Hell...."
ReplyDeleteReapers are related to heaven and hell since they ferry souls. And if the reaper of season 4 was an angel, then he'd have given off blue light upon dying. And if the reapers die without showing wings then they are NOTHING like angels, which means, they are NOT angels.
"It is indeed a huge assumption to say the Rit Zien's wings were just broken off."
Its not an assumption - it has been stated repeatedly that a lot of the fallen angels lost their wings.
Its not a hard concept to understand:
Before: Every dead angel left a wing imprint.
During: The fall, all the angel wings were being burnt away.
After: Hardly any angel leaves a wing imprint anymore.
Conclusion: Most of the angels lost their wings in the fall.
"I don't recall any angels dying in that episode wing-less."
Ezra didn't leave an imprint. Later 2 guys attacked Cas and his soldier - all three dies without leaving the wing imprints. Go see the episode again if you can't recall.
"He must've when he did see the reaper."
But he didn't see the reaper.
Nope. I'm just saying that the page history there proves the retcon.
ReplyDeleteA week ago there was no mention anywhere of Reapers of SPNverse being angels. Now there is. That's classic retcon.
"http://www.tvrage.com/Supernat..."
ReplyDeleteWhat is this supposed to prove? I couldn't find any mention of Sam seeing the reaper anywhere.
"When Dean puts those handcuffs on her to bind her, she would have no choice."
But she did have a choice before he put those handcuffs on.
"Reapers were already mentioned as being angels of death. Not a retcon.
We can keep this up all night if you want to, I'm not budging."
No, they weren't. And keep it up if you want. I enjoy demolishing shoddy rationalizations. Budging you is not my goal - only to shoot down all your arguments.
"No, The Cupid did not have a vessel."
ReplyDeleteProve it then.
"Also don't think it's the same deal at all with Castiel being invisible and Cupid."
Prove that as well.
"At least we agree with something; reapers don't need vessels, and what
we have seen doesn't show such. They are only seen as "humans" simply
because the writers got sloppy with this, even in season five when we
have Castiel and Crowley looking through the veil and seeing reapers as
nicely-dresssed humans."
And so the rest of my logic follows - res ipsa and so on.
"I'm confused with what you're trying to get to now."
I'm saying that if the pastor's wife could bind a reaper into doing her bidding and if reapers were angels, then it'd be possible to do the same with other angels as well. And if the demons knew a way to do so - possible, since a pastor's wife knew - then they'd have had a huge advantage over the angels in the war.
However, if reapers are not angels, then binding them serves no purpose and demons are already more powerful since they could possess the reapers.
"I have yet to hear about so many differences between the two. "
I gave you a list of 11. And all you replied them with were shoddy rationalizations.
"Reapers are related to heaven and hell since they ferry souls. And if the reaper of season 4 was an angel, then he'd have given off blue light upon dying. And if the reapers die without showing wings then they are NOTHING like angels, which means, they are NOT angels."
ReplyDeleteMan, you're getting there!
As I've said, reapers are not EXACTLY like angels.
"Its not an assumption - it has been stated repeatedly that a lot of the fallen angels lost their wings."
Many did, yes, but the real powerful ones like Gadreel, have only tarnished wings and the Rit Zien should have had them too as he was very powerful. All other angels we've seen have had no wings and only through time we've seen angels growing their wings back.
"Ezra didn't leave an imprint. Later 2 guys attacked Cas and his soldier - all three dies without leaving the wing imprints. Go see the episode again if you can't recall."
Ezra also died in a manner that doesn't call for the imprint as the only way we've seen the wings appear is when they've died via angel sword.
I also don't even remember getting a full view of the dead angels that Castiel was fighting.
"But he didn't see the reaper."
I've already shown you a promo pic of Sam seeing the reaper.
Additional retcon isn't the same as substitutional retcon.
ReplyDelete"What is this supposed to prove? I couldn't find any mention of Sam seeing the reaper anywhere."
ReplyDeleteThe promotional picture of Sam seeing the reaper.
"But she did have a choice before he put those handcuffs on."
She did, but she didn't go invisible. That should be a complaint with the writing.
"No, they weren't. And keep it up if you want. I enjoy demolishing shoddy rationalizations. Budging you is not my goal - only to shoot down all your arguments."
I will indeed keep it up. It's quite fun talking to someone that think's he right. It's hilarious because I actually found someone so pompous on here.
"You mean you proved that you were wrong. The pop culture name of "The
ReplyDeleteGrim Reaper" has nothing to do with what Christian lore gives the name
to the angel of death which is either Michael or Azrael."
Except, the part about Christian lore was from the wiki entry about the grim reaper. But like I said - willful blindness and all.
"And it didn't fit with the mythos,"
Exactly - the Christian lore about the Grim Reaper being an angel does not fit the Supernatural mythos. Which is why its a retcon.
"I have already shown you a link that showed a promo pic of Sam seeing the reaper."
That was Jared seeing the actor playing the reaper. That particular shot was never in the show itself.
"Says who exactly?"
Says the law of identity.
"Why do reapers have to go by the same set of rules that angels do?"
Only if they are to be classified as angels. If the defining rules of being an angel are not applicable to reapers, then they are not angels.
"Hellhounds are a form of demon"
Are they? Prove it.
"If they follow only one purpose, they wouldn't move on to become "rogues"."
What are you babbling about? Its when they don't follow their given purpose that they become rogues.
"No, that is incorrect. "Ajay"'s mannerisms were far different than
Bobby's reaper. In fact, you're the first person I've actually spoke to
that believes both were the same reaper and I'm baffled by it. Heck,
if we're even going by with Tessa, the reaper in"Death's Door" should
have looked the same going by that theory."
Except, Ajay said he reaped Bobby and we saw the reaper who reaped Bobby and they looked and acted different. So, I'm guessing he took one form in Bobby's head and then took on a vessel in the real world.
"And now Dean all of a sudden wanted to speak to any ol' reaper?"
He wanted to speak to Death - the the way to Death was through any ol' reaper, since all of them answer to him.
"And it also proves how overly-powerful the writers made a demon that shouldn't be so powerful. That is an awful reason, imo."
Or maybe they just made reapers weak - which would be fine if they weren't going to retcon them into angels down the line.
"I'm going in circles here. I've brought up their similarities like three times already."
Superficial similarities and defining differences. Just because both are sweet, both turn black when they rot and both grow on trees does not mean that apples are a subset of oranges. Similarly, just because reapers share a few of angelic powers and glow when they die does not make them angels.
"Says who? Who said that Cupids were only on a need-to-know basis?"
Cupids weren't - their missions were. Since publicly heaven had to maintain the position that it was trying to avoid the apocalypse.
"I can say the same thing about trying to bring up Azazel when the whole
character was written to be more powerful than anything else we've seen."
Was he all that powerful? He died before the rest of the power-players came into the picture.
"Prove it then."
ReplyDeleteLet's go to your beloved website:
http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Vessel
"In 5.14 My Bloody Valentine, Castiel demands that a Cupid reveals itself, and it instantly appears in human form. Whether or not it needed a vessel is unknown."
Now prove that the Cupid WAS using a vessel.
"And so the rest of my logic follows - res ipsa and so on."
The rest of your logic? So does you "logic", or what you'd like to call it, explain the reapers appearing human in the veil?
"I'm saying that if the pastor's wife could bind a reaper into doing her bidding and if reapers were angels, then it'd be possible to do the same with other angels as well. And if the demons knew a way to do so - possible, since a pastor's wife knew - then they'd have had a huge advantage over the angels in the war."
And that would be a fantastic idea for the series.
"I gave you a list of 11. And all you replied them with were shoddy rationalizations."
Speaking of shoddy, that list of 11 "reasons" were completely shoddy indeed.
"That's not a connection...."
ReplyDeleteThis shouldn't be that hard to understand. Grim Reaper refers to personification of death. Death has been personified as different things withing different lores - which is why Grim Reaper serves as a collective term to reference all those personifications. Within the Christian lore, death is personified as an angel - therefore, Grim Reaper is a reference to the Christian angel of death as well. That is what Sam was talking about. He was not calling reapers angels. I cannot put it more simply than this.
"That is the seraph."
Nope. That description was on a page for cherubs.
"How is that a fact?"
It is a fact that just like the cupid, Castiel could make himself invisible and manifest when he wanted. It is also a fact that while these two things are alike, you think of them as different. Q.E.D.
"I know the information. CHRISTIAN lore speaks of Michael or Azrael as
ReplyDeletethe angel of death, not some title of "The Grim Reaper". Know the
difference between CHRISTIAN lore and pop culture before you say one
thing is referring to CHRISTIAN lore."
And the Grim Reaper is the collective term for personification of death through different lores - including the Christian lore.
"I'm also glad you mentioned that there hasn't been much of a change with reapers, which is why it isn't a retcon."
The change in classification qualifies as a retcon.
"And yet you suspect that Death created the reapers…."
I have no opinion on the matter. i consider it irrelevant.
"Perserving the natural order does not mean they serve Death. Fate preserves the natural order so does she serve Death too?"
The part of natural order they preserve is within Death's domain.
Yes, in different Abrahamic cultures, they are known by different names, but they don't appear at all in many other lore. But reapers are not limited to the lore with Abrahamic roots.
ReplyDelete"Except, the part about Christian lore was from the wiki entry about the grim reaper. But like I said - willful blindness and all."
ReplyDeleteTrusting a wikipedia page. Yep, willful blindness indeed. I could go on and say the Tooth Fairy is real and you'd believe it.
What you posted was talking about the angel of death. The term "Grim Reaper" is NEVER a name associated to true Christianity lore.
"Exactly - the Christian lore about the Grim Reaper being an angel does not fit the Supernatural mythos. Which is why its a retcon."
Christian lore doesn't name the Grim Reaper as a title for the angel of death.
"That was Jared seeing the actor playing the reaper. That particular shot was never in the show itself."
That was a promotional picture that was in the episode.
"Says the law of identity."
Or what you'd like to believe is the "law of identity".
"Only if they are to be classified as angels. If the defining rules of being an angel are not applicable to reapers, then they are not angels."
There are no defining rules. How many times do I need to tell you that reapers are a TYPE of angels that don't need to go by the same rules as other angels.
"Are they? Prove it."
"Crossroad Blues":
"SAM - They're seeing dogs, all right. But not Black Dogs, they're seeing Hellhounds. Demonic pit bulls."
The word "demonic" is a clue.
"What are you babbling about? Its when they don't follow their given purpose that they become rogues."
If they are only created to serve ONE purpose, which is to ferry souls, why in the hell would they even have the mind to become rogue? Imo, they are not created by Death and do not serve one main purpose.
"Except, Ajay said he reaped Bobby and we saw the reaper who reaped Bobby and they looked and acted different. So, I'm guessing he took one form in Bobby's head and then took on a vessel in the real world."
Bit of a stretch when Tessa has already been seen as looking the same in both the real world and the veil. Also, Ajay did indeed reap Bobby's soul, into Hell.
"He wanted to speak to Death - the the way to Death was through any ol' reaper, since all of them answer to him."
Quite an assumption, but Dean was focused on finding Tessa.
"Or maybe they just made reapers weak - which would be fine if they weren't going to retcon them into angels down the line."
Of course they made reapers weak as you can control one through necromancy, but they indeed over-powered Azazel.
"Cupids weren't - their missions were. Since publicly heaven had to maintain the position that it was trying to avoid the apocalypse."
Wait, what? What proof do you have that angels were on a need-to-know basis with Cupids?
"Was he all that powerful? He died before the rest of the power-players came into the picture."
Taking over a reaper when no other entity has says yes, he was over-powered.
"As I've said, reapers are not EXACTLY like angels."
ReplyDeleteIf they don't share the defining angel characteristics, then any similarities are incidental and thus they are NOT ANGELS.
"Many did, yes, but the real powerful ones like Gadreel, have only
tarnished wings and the Rit Zien should have had them too as he was very
powerful. All other angels we've seen have had no wings and only
through time we've seen angels growing their wings back."
Wrong. Power has nothing to do with it. In the beginning of Meta-Fiction, when Cas found the site of another angel massacre, some of the angels there did have the tattered wing imprint. Since they weren't powerful (they got killed en masse), your hypothesis is incorrect. Rit Zien lost his wings in the fall. Reapers don't have wings because they are not angels.
"Ezra also died in a manner that doesn't call for the imprint as the only
way we've seen the wings appear is when they've died via angel sword."
He was stabbed. So yeah, he died by an angel sword.
"I also don't even remember getting a full view of the dead angels that Castiel was fighting."
We got the side view - when Cas threw one of the angels to the ground and stabbed him.
"I've already shown you a promo pic of Sam seeing the reaper."
Since the pic wasn't from the episode itself, its not a part of canon.
Retcon is retcon.
ReplyDeleteBahai Faith, Neoplatonism, Zoroastrianism, Sikhism, Brahma Kumaris, Hermetic Qabalah
ReplyDelete"The promotional picture of Sam seeing the reaper."
ReplyDeleteAh.. Sorry, not in the episode.
"She did, but she didn't go invisible. That should be a complaint with the writing."
Why would she go visible in the first place?
"I will indeed keep it up. It's quite fun talking to someone that
think's he's right. It's hilarious because I actually found someone so
pompous on here."
Being right and having evidence proving me right gives me quite an ego boost.
"And the Grim Reaper is the collective term for personification of death through different lores - including the Christian lore."
ReplyDeleteIncorrect. Christian lore never uses the term "The Grim Reaper". The angel of death, yes.
"The change in classification qualifies as a retcon."
It's not a change in classification because a reaper is still a reaper and I as many others, are fine that reapers are a type of angel. Obviously you don't when you can keep commenting about this topic.
"I have no opinion on the matter. i consider it irrelevant."
So you don't believe Death created reapers then?
"The part of natural order they preserve is within Death's domain."
So does Fate, but again, Fate doesn't serve Death.
"This shouldn't be that hard to understand. Grim Reaper refers to personification of death. Death has been personified as different things withing different lores - which is why Grim Reaper serves as a collective term to reference all those personifications. Within the Christian lore, death is personified as an angel - therefore, Grim Reaper is a reference to the Christian angel of death as well. That is what Sam was talking about. He was not calling reapers angels. I cannot put it more simply than this."
ReplyDeleteLol, this is quite embarrassing. There is no "therefore". You're connecting way too much. Christian lore does not use the term "Grim Reaper". PLEASE get that through your skull.
"Nope. That description was on a page for cherubs."
And as I said, the description is used for seraphs, which is far more accessible to what the people behind SPN prefer since cherubs are the baby-like angels as we even see in "My Bloody Valentine" which a rather "big" guy in a diaper.
"It is a fact that just like the cupid, Castiel could make himself invisible and manifest when he wanted. It is also a fact that while these two things are alike, you think of them as different. Q.E.D."
They are very well alike, but not done right as the same exact thing.
"Let's go to your beloved website:"
ReplyDeleteWeren't you the one who said that evidence from fan-wiki is unreliable?
As for my own proof:
1. You failed to prove that it wasn't a vessel. All you did was hint at the possibility.
2. Angel's spiritual form is detrimental to humans - which means cupids would've required a vessel.
3. We've never seen a spiritual entity interact in the world without a vessel.
Q.E.D
"The rest of your logic? So does you "logic", or what you'd like to call it, explain the reapers appearing human in the veil?"
They didn't want to appear as floating ghosts. Like the reaper from season 1, they prefer the mortician appearance.
"And that would be a fantastic idea for the series."
And if reapers were angels, they would've made use of it.
"Speaking of shoddy, that list of 11 "reasons" were completely shoddy indeed."
Those weren't "reasons" - those were factual differences.
"If they don't share the defining angel characteristics, then any similarities are incidental and thus they are NOT ANGELS."
ReplyDeleteOne fan of the series to another, but what you view as the reapers having to have define angel characteristics, reapers bear enough similarities as a TYPE of angel, imo.
"Wrong. Power has nothing to do with it. In the beginning of Meta-Fiction, when Cas found the site of another angel massacre, some of the angels there did have the tattered wing imprint. Since they weren't powerful (they got killed en masse), your hypothesis is incorrect. Rit Zien lost his wings in the fall. Reapers don't have wings because they are not angels."
Of course they had wings as throughout the season, we saw more angels having wings again, as I said, through the course of the season, angels grew their wings back.
"He was stabbed. So yeah, he died by an angel sword."
Weren't only his destroyed eyes shown?
"We got the side view - when Cas threw one of the angels to the ground and stabbed him."
When I watch it again tomorrow, I'll see for myself.
"Since the pic wasn't from the episode itself, its not a part of canon."
Since it was a promotion pic, it is canon.
In the broadest view, then sure.
ReplyDelete"Ah.. Sorry, not in the episode."
ReplyDeleteAhhh, sorry, but it was.
"Why would she go visible in the first place?"
Since she was about to destroy herself, she wanted to be seen as she was about to die.
"Being right and having evidence proving me right gives me quite an ego boost."
When you're right and with evidence, then you have the right to have an ego boost, but not right now. Sorry :)
"Weren't you the one who said that evidence from fan-wiki is unreliable?"
ReplyDeleteOf course, but what else DO I have besides the fact that nothing suggest it was a vessel. Besides some blowhard as yourself talking, there is nothing to show it was a vessel at all, so I posted from your beloved website.
Q.E.D. indeed with reading your comments, but I'm more than done for tonight.
"Those weren't "reasons" - those were factual differences."
Now you need to know the difference when it comes to actual facts.
"Trusting a wikipedia page. Yep, willful blindness indeed. I could go on and say the Tooth Fairy is real and you'd believe it."
ReplyDeleteThen by all means - provide your own references. Just make sure they are peer-reviewed.
"What you posted was talking about the angel of death. The term "Grim
Reaper" is NEVER a name associated to true Christianity lore."
It is associated to the Christian lore in the wiki entry about the Grim Reaper. And talking about the "true" Christian lore is a "no true scotsman" fallacy.
"Christian lore doesn't name the Grim Reaper as a title for the angel of death."
No, that's just what the angel of death within the Christian lore is popularly known as.
"That was a promotional picture that was in the episode."
No, it wasn't. I checked. From the moment the reaper was close enough to lay hands on Sue-Ann to the moment of her death - Sam was nowhere in the picture.
"Or what you'd like to believe is the "law of identity"."
That is not dependent upon my belief. Or yours.
"There are no defining rules. How many times do I need to tell you that
reapers are a TYPE of angels that don't need to go by the same rules as
other angels."
And oranges are just a type of apples that don't need to go by the same rules as other apples.
That's how ridiculous your argument is.
"The word "demonic" is a clue."
But not proof that they are indeed demons. You still need to prove it.
"If they are only created to serve ONE purpose, which is to ferry souls,
why in the hell would they even have the mind to become rogue?"
Because the events of the apocalypse taught them that they do not have to limit themselves to the purpose they were created for. Free-will and all that.
"Quite an assumption, but Dean was focused on finding Tessa."
Why would he be? If he could catch one at the local hospital?
"Of course they made reapers weak as you can control one through necromancy, but they indeed over-powered Azazel."
If they made reapers weak, how did they make Azazel powerful?
"Wait, what? What proof do you have that angels were on a need-to-know basis with Cupids?"
Here's the line of evidence:
1. Cupid's mission was to ensure the birth of apocaluptic vessels - the guy who'd break the first seal and the guy who'd break the last.
2. Publicly, their position was that they want to avoid the apocalypse.
3. Cupid's mission was contradictory to the public position.
4. Common knowledge of Cupid's mission would've resulted in some of angels to figure things out.
5. So, it makes sense for them to keep it on a need-to-know basis.
"Taking over a reaper when no other entity has says yes, he was over-powered."
But reapers were weak. And other entities could possibly do so as well - we just haven't seen them try.
Bahai - Developed under Ottomans - abrahamic roots.
ReplyDeleteNeoplatonism - developed under 4th century Christianity.
Zoroastrianism - The odd one out.
Sikhism - That wiki entry is unreliable - as indicated by a note above that entry. Sikhism was influenced by Islam, but there is no specific concept of angels in it.
Brahma Kumaris - The word doesn't mean the same thing.
Hermetic Qabalah - Developed alongside Christianity.
"Incorrect. Christian lore never uses the term "The Grim Reaper". The angel of death, yes."
ReplyDeleteIncorrect. The Christian lore doesn't have to use the term "The Grim Reaper" for that term to apply to the angel of death in Christian lore.
"It's not a change in classification..."
It is a change of classification if reapers are now classified as a subset of angels where they weren't before.
"So you don't believe Death created reapers then?"
I don't believe one way or the other.
"So does Fate, but again, Fate doesn't serve Death."
That's because the natural order within Fate's domain is not wholly within Death's.
"Lol, this is quite embarrassing. There is no "therefore". You're
ReplyDeleteconnecting way too much. Christian lore does not use the term "Grim
Reaper". PLEASE get that through your skull."
It doesn't have to for the term to apply to Christian lore. PLEASE get that through your skull.
"And as I said, the description is used for seraphs,"
And as I said, you are wrong. That description was on the Cherub page and therefore it is used for Cherubs.
"They are very well alike, but not done right as the same exact thing."
So, it proves that you were wrong. Angels can use vessels and remain invisible.
"One fan of the series to another, but what you view as the reapers
ReplyDeletehaving to have define angel characteristics, reapers bear enough
similarities as a TYPE of angel, imo."
Glowing blue when they die is not enough.
"Of course they had wings as throughout the season, we saw more angels
having wings again, as I said, through the course of the season, angels
grew their wings back."
Thus establishing that the Rit Zien would have wings in their normal form and only lost them in the fall and are therefore correctly classified as angels. Unlike the reapers who don't have wings and therefore should not be classified as angels.
"Weren't only his destroyed eyes shown?"
There was a stab wound on the chest as well.
"Since it was a promotional pic, it is canon."
Not if it doesn't happen on the show.
Glad we finally agree that making reapers as angels is a retcon.
ReplyDelete"Ahhh, sorry, but it was."
ReplyDeleteNo, it wasn't.
"Since she was about to destroy herself, she wanted to be seen as she was about to die."
But she wasn't about to destroy herself - not until she got in.
"When you're right and with evidence, then you have the right to have an ego boost, but not right now. Sorry :)"
Since I am right and have repeatedly given evidence.....
"Of course, but what else DO I have besides the fact that nothing suggests it was a vessel."
ReplyDeleteActually, you have nothing. Canon suggests that it was a vessel and you have nothing to contradict it.
"there is nothing to show it was a vessel at all, so I posted from your beloved website."
A website you consider unreliable - thus undercutting your own argument.
Maybe I'm in the minority but as excited as I was hen Sara Gamble left I can easily say that I liked season six and seven a lot more then Carver's eight and nine. The stories were more interesting to me. Even with all the problems like soul less Sam plot fizzling out (lame ending to the Eve and Leviathon stuff) it was STILL better then the angel stuff we get now.
ReplyDeleteI'm tired of the formula being to introduce new bad angels and demons early on, have them elude Sam/Dean the entire season, throw some brother drama in and then have Sam and Dean finish off the bad guys at the end of the season. Rinse repeat.
Season 8 plot was them trying to close the Gates of Hell all season long just to go lol nope at the very last moments of the season which was also completely out of character since the Sam and Dean Of yesteryear would gladly sacrifice their lives for something that big. They wanted to close off Hell practically the entire season and have sacrificed themselves for far less.
Season 8 could be completely erased and it wouldn't even matter as nothing of consequence happened other the casting the angels out of Heaven.
---
I still like the ida of god showing up to end things if nothing more then to allow us to move on from the angel/demon storyline. If they could end the story better then go for it.
"Season 8 plot was them trying to close the Gates of Hell all season long
ReplyDeletejust to go lol nope at the very last moments of the season which was
also completely out of character"
That was the biggest problem of season 8. They were making a bold plot move. The whole season, everyone was talking about how now instead of being on the defensive and reacting the new big bad, the Winchesters were going on the offensive.
I didn't expect them to shut the gates of hell - the demons are too valuable a source of villainy for that - but I was hoping they'd defy those expectations. That one ending could've salvaged season 8 and set a new direction for season 9. Instead, we got an excuse about how Sam would die if the trials were completed (he almost ended up dead anyway) and now the Winchesters are back playing defensive.
" But according to the Hunters' Bible aka John's Journal, reapers cannot
ReplyDeletebe killed--a fact we learn in Season 2's "In My Time of Dying". You can
try to run from them when they come for you. You can try to hide from
them when they come for you. But you can't kill them."
This is the only point I disagree with. John's Journal became outdated ages ago, with all the new information they've found since then. A lot of new weapons came into play after his death - there is the Colt that he thought could kill anything, but he didn't know about its limitations, the demon-knife, angel blades, Death's scythe and now, the First Blade.
John's Journal isn't a Hunter Bible - it does not contain all possible information about the supernatural. Its just what one man was able to learn during his time hunting. I think the fact that the boys no longer refer to his journal shows that they've surpassed John in knowledge and skills and have become better hunters than him.
"If reapers are angels who are visible to everyone and could be chained
ReplyDeleteto chairs and killed by angel blades, then what would stop the loved
ones of every dying person to off every reaper that comes after them and
keep them alive indefinitely?"
The following things:
1. Angels don't have to be visible all the time.
2. They cannot be chained easily - even if you have chains to do so.
3. They cannot be killed easily - even if you have the blades to do so.
4. Finding the chains and the blades is not an easy task either.
5. Warding may work for a while, but both angels and reapers have ways around it.
"It doesn't have to for the term to apply to Christian lore. PLEASE get that through your skull."
ReplyDeleteWHEN YOU SAY IT'S FROM CHRISTIAN LORE, YOU'RE SAYING THE NAME "GRIM REAPER" IS COINED FROM CHRISTIAN LORE.
And that is where you constantly fail. Get THAT through your skull.
"And as I said, you are wrong. That description was on the Cherub page and therefore it is used for Cherubs."
And as I said, you are incorrect. Cherubs are widely more known as the baby-like angels where seraphs are known as being a much more majestic look, which is what SPN went with.
"So, it proves that you were wrong. Angels can use vessels and remain invisible."
Alike = same thing apparently to you?
I guess if you'd want to be right so much, you'd like to pretend that.
"Incorrect. The Christian lore doesn't have to use the term "The Grim Reaper" for that term to apply to the angel of death in Christian lore."
ReplyDeleteThis is where ignorance is bliss I suppose. You just typed it all out, but yet you continue to say the "The Grim Reaper" is Christian lore. Read what you just said, very slowly if need be, then come back to me. THE ANGEL OF DEATH is Christian lore, as DEATH itself is used in many religious and even non-religious lore, the term of THE GRIM REAPER is not and yet you continuously use that name like it is. THAT'S the stem of this topic. You can't say it's "Christian lore" when you continue to say that name is used when it's not.
"It is a change of classification if reapers are now classified as a subset of angels where they weren't before."
And yet they can still be called reapers. Castiel can be called a seraph, Zachariah can be called a seraph, Cupids can be called cherubs and reapers can still be called reapers even if they are angels. Just take out Thrones or Dominions that will never be used and add reaper as a classification for the plethora of angels. It's not complicated ;)
"That's because the natural order within Fate's domain is not wholly within Death's."
Fate focuses on the natural order as much as reapers do.
I've taken course on religion, I didn't just follow what the wiki page says. And even if it's under old Abrahamic roots, they are not wrapped around what people see the Abrahamic religions as of today, which is Christianity, Judaism and Islam.
ReplyDelete"Glowing blue when they die is not enough."
ReplyDeleteIf that was the only similarity, I'd agree.
"Thus establishing that the Rit Zien would have wings in their normal form and only lost them in the fall and are therefore correctly classified as angels. Unlike the reapers who don't have wings and therefore should not be classified as angels."
It COULD, yes, but I don't think it didn't have wings because of the fall. The Rit Zien was a newly-created type of angel that I view that didn't have wings.
"There was a stab wound on the chest as well."
Well, I'm seeing the repeat tonight, so I'll see who's right.
"Not if it doesn't happen on the show."
It did, though.
Only that you feel all retcons are the same. In that case, SPN has been full of retcons since season three when the types of retcons go over your head.
ReplyDelete"No, it wasn't."
ReplyDeleteYes, it was.
"But she wasn't about to destroy herself - not until she got in."
So you wanted her to be invisible until she walked in? Getting a bit fickle with what you're asking for, aren't you?
"Since I am right and have repeatedly given evidence….."
Lol, keep telling yourself that.
"Actually, you have nothing. Canon suggests that it was a vessel and you have nothing to contradict it."
ReplyDeleteCanon also suggests that angels don't need to become invisible, and the example of Castiel is much different because he was spying on the brothers.
"A website you consider unreliable - thus undercutting your own argument."
No, my argument is perfectly fine. There is nothing to prove that it was a vessel either. Only positing the link you seemingly go to to prove that your arguments are flat when you post them.