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Supernatural – Do You Believe in Miracles – Review : “Ain’t It a Bitch”

May 24, 2014

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This one needed to be processed for a bit. My first impression was that the episode itself was a little lackluster for a finale. It was nicely filled in with a lot of callbacks to previous seasons, such as locking Dean up in the panic room/dungeon and Metatron walking around healing the injured as a new God, like Cas did in season 7. And we had some standout scenes - Crowley's soliloquy over Dean's body, Sam and Dean's goodbye, and watching Sam grieve his brother alone in the bunker. But it had its flaws. There was too much angel jabber (the uninteresting Metatron kind). Dean turning into a demon wasn’t much of a surprise to a lot of people who participate in online discussions. It’s hard to take a Winchester dying seriously at this point. There was Sam’s last-minute turnaround (summoning Crowley to make a deal), invalidating everything he has said this season. And finally there was Carver’s confirmation that Cas only cares about one Winchester. Thanks for that.

It took a third watch and a few days before I realized I needed to rewrite a lot of the thoughts I had previously jotted down, and I actually started to become a little excited about potential that the set-up left us with.

Dean as a Demon

Yes, it happened. Dean became a demon. It’s something that’s been foreshadowed for years. He’s always had trouble looking at himself in the mirror because his mirror image shows him a darker view of himself.  This has been true metaphorically, in his habit of deflection whenever prompted (mostly by Sam) to face his own emotions, and symbolically as he faced down his nightmare vision of himself as a demon in Dream a Little Dream of Me. There have been a number of camera shots throughout the series of Dean staring back at his own reflection in mirrors, always in connection to darkness: In Lazarus Rising as he stared into a bathroom mirror and remembered Hell, in Meta Fiction as he was starting to feel the effects of the Mark of Cain, and again in this episode as Dean looked at himself in the mirror and saw the effects of his own illness caused by the blade.

Ruby said in season 3 that souls become demons after being tortured in Hell for centuries and forgetting what it’s like to be human. Along with the physical torture in Hell, Dean’s presence on the show has been marked by one long exercise in emotional self-torture – so I’ll give him time served in that area.

For Dean, being human has always been about family, mostly Sam, and that relationship had been strained over the past two seasons.  When Dean isn’t close to Sam, he’s very much alone. But their relationship is always going to be strained until he can finally accepts Sam as an equal, rather than his little brother who needs to be protected. And he’s always struggled to truly trust in Sam.  It’s not a coincidence that Dean’s downfall was proceeded by Dean’s robbing Sam the right to control his own body, Dean’s dictatorship speech, and finally his rejection of Sam’s suggestion that the two face Metatron together. It's an arrogance of thinking he's stronger than Sam that mirror's Sam's own thoughts in season 4.  “It’s not your fight,” Dean said to an unconscious Sam after he knocked him out.  But there was a lesson to be learned with the apocalypse, and that is that they are only strong when they are working as equal partners.

Now Dean’s following in the footsteps of a powerful demon who it appears also fell because he couldn’t trust his brother.  It's interesting that Cain seemed very curious about why Dean didn't kill Sam.  Could it be that Cain judged Dean worthy of bearing the mark because Dean had trusted Sam once, and Cain saw potential to break the pattern?

So now we’re left with Dean – unsuccessful in killing Metatron and unsuccessful in avoiding turning into a very powerful weapon. He’s likely lost much of his humanity, and he’s ripe for manipulation by one of their biggest enemies – Crowley. What will Demon Dean look like? He could be funny like Soulless Sam was in season 6. He could be a good, soulful monster like Benny was in season 8. But when Crowley was monologuing, I got the sense that this was just as much Carver using Crowley as narrator as it was Crowley speaking. Crowley gave Dean an invitation to let go of all of the monotony of their lives and join him in howling at the moon. Dean’s always been a pressure-cooker of angst and suffering, ready to blow. Dean’s apparent acceptance of Crowley’s invitation by reawaking as a demon seemed to indicate that we’re going to see him, at least initially, turn off the emotions and do some howling.

Also, the curing of Crowley story seems to imply that while demons can attach to and love an individual, they're not capable of the full gamut of human emotions and are evil by nature.  It's a physical thing, not a choice, so the likelihood is that Dean will become a very dangerous demon before we're done.

So where does Dean go from here? The demon part can likely be cured through the conveniently inserted demon cure spell the Winchesters stumbled upon last season. But the rub is that Dean, as we’re told by Crowley, will only be strong enough to have control over the mark if he’s a demon. Making him human turns him back into an out-of-control weapon.

Sam – “I Lied” 

I’m not going to lie and say I had kind words to say about this part of the story after my first watch, but what happened deserves more examination. This is the first time since Mystery Spot that we’ve seen Sam in the immediate aftermath after losing his brother. We saw pieces in season 4 through flashbacks, and we were told vague and suspicious statements about what Sam did in season 8 that frankly never really added up. He’s insisted to Dean this season that under the same circumstances, he wouldn’t have done “anything” to bring Dean back. But when Dean said to Sam in this episode, “What happened with you being ok with this?,” and Sam responded, “I lied,” I took that as a hint and unconfirmed admission that Sam that had lied about not looking for Dean while Dean was in Purgatory too. Crowley's statement that Sam summoning him was predictable also implies that Sam always follows this pattern.

Why would Sam lie? Although Dean seems to have made peace with their dysfunctional relationship and the damage it does to others, such as the collateral damage caused by the apocalypse, which was caused by Sam and Dean refusing to let each other die, Sam seems to be in the position of seeing it all, not being OK with it.  But as we saw in this episode, he's not being able to break free either. We didn’t actually see Sam try to make a deal with Crowley, but as I mentioned earlier, I think Crowley was acting as part narrator when he had his soliloquy over Dean’s dead body, and that he was speaking correctly when he said Sam was summoning him to make a deal.

Cas and “The Mission”

This was the part that I struggled most with interpreting, because Cas has been through so many changes over the seasons. Frankly, I’ve lost track with keeping up. But what was said here between Cas and Gadreel might be the most unexpected and interesting development to come from this episode. Cas has struggled for a long time with coming to terms with his own individuality post season 5, understanding what the role of angels should be post God’s desertion, learning what leadership and power feels like, and balancing the conflict between between his attachment to Dean and his duty as an angel. Gadreel, before he died, gained clarity about the angel mission, and his speech to Cas is important in understanding where Cas ended the episode.

Gadreel tells Cas that he thought of nothing other than his own cause – redemption – but since has come to realize that the only thing that matters now is the mission: “protecting those who would not or could not protect themselves – the humans.”

The key point here is that the mission is more important than any one individual. It’s more important than killing Metatron. It’s more important than Gadreel’s redemption arc. It’s more important that Cas’s redemption arc. And it’s more important than saving Dean. As long as Dean bears the mark, he is weapon. This puts curing him without a plan to remove the mark in direct conflict with the angel mission.  Also, in the past couple of episodes, we've seen other angels imply that Cas's attachment to Dean compromises him as an angel. Of course Cas's grace is said to be burning out, so he might end up a human in the end, but in this episode Cas stated that he wants to be an angel.

So where does this leave us? As far as we know, the only way to get rid of the mark seems to be to transfer it to someone else, or to kill the demon that bears it if possible. In the inevitable discussions about transfering the mark I'm sure will follow (because we know Dean’s not being written off the show), I’m betting Crowley will be first in line to volunteer to take on the “burden,” and the power. But to say Crowley is untrustworthy, and transferring the mark would create an extremely dangerous monster, is a huge understatement. If they knew someone who was sort of a human-demon hybrid, and had been conditioned since he was an infant to be able to contain great evil, and who has also to shown that he can handle it, that might work too. But that would involve placing trust in that person.

What did you think of the episode? As always, sound off in the comments.

152 comments:

  1. For me it was an average episode with a twist that will only be worthwhile if season 10 is written well an interesting.

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  2. I think they're going to probably spend next season trying to cure Dean (or at least Sam & Castiel will). They sort of set that up at the end of last year when they were trying to cure Crowley and he wound up getting addicted to human blood and having issues with his humanity coming back. I wasn't that surprised by the ending because I saw a lot of speculation online about it - and it turned out that a lot of the fans guessed right about the ending and saw it coming.

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  3. Yes, exactly. There's some interesting set up here, but it will all come down to what if anything is done with it. They better not start with a time jump.

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  4. After watching the season finale, you really start to get a sense of how Dean's been written in the past and not just during Carver's era, but beforehand too. In season six, episode six("You Can't Handle The Truth"), Dean's truth was astounding to hear and really gives one a sense of how he feels about himself deep inside: "DEAN: You're covered in blood until you're covered in your own blood. Half the time, you're about to die. Like right now. I told myself I wanted out... that I wanted a family. VERITAS :But you were lying. DEAN: No. But what I'm good at... is slicing throats. I ain't a father. I'm a killer. And there's no changing that. I know that now." and not only this, but it has always been felt as if Dean was going to end up becoming a monster ever since he was rescued from Hell by Castiel. He tries to live a normal life as Sam wanted him to, but couldn't; when the world needed to be saved again, the inner inhibitions of Dean didn't seem to care at all("How To Make Friends and Influence Monsters") and when he was sent to Purgatory, he called it 'pure'. Now that's taken to Mark of Cain, it has finally let this monster out of him, which ironically, is a demon seeing as how he felt as if he'd always become a demon("Dream A Little Dream Of Me") even if he kept fighting that destiny, while fighting others and even his own brother's. I really feel as if the series HAD to come to this milestone in this development of both Sam and Dean and as it took Sam's storyline seven seasons(and yes, I do count Gamble's era as pivotal moments for Sam's story arc), Dean has to come to some conclusion, but some part of me tells me Dean may stay as a demon.

    Also, I think Demon!Dean will be a lot of Soulless Sam. Think of Dean in the beginning of season three, but ten times as worse in just wanting to do whatever he wants in life.

    I like this review, but I don't agree with the possible idea that Sam tried to look for Dean after season seven's finale. I felt like, unlike "Mystery Spot", this episode or what happened after the season three finale, there was nothing Sam could literally do to find Dean. Leviathans have no soul so it would be a snowball's guess to assume Dean and Cas, along with Dick, would be sent back into Purgatory and with no body, I thought it was natural that Sam decided to move on. Without his brother, he has no reason for the hunting life and the same with Dean. In these other moments where Sam has tried to bring back Dean, he is aware of what has happened to his brother.

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  5. The only kicker is the possibility, that like Cain, Dean has become a Knight of Hell, which one can presume Dean has become. The spell to cure a demon may only work on just a regular demon. I wouldn't be surprised if Sam and Castiel tries to cure Dean, but it doesn't work.

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  6. I think trying to save Dean is a given, especially where Sam is. The question is how easy that will be. Dean might be extremely dangerous and not want to be cured. And they not only have the demon issue to deal with but the mark of Cain part too. If Dean becomes a big threat though, and is targeted by the angels who are recommitted to their "mission" of protecting humans, that could put Cas in a difficult spot.

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  7. I think Jared or Jensen said it will start right after.

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  8. Off topic for a bit, but I just love the idea that the angels might all share one similar goal, which what once was, and that is protecting humans, the ones that God loved the most, and it's great to see Gadreel mention that and something all the angels could be focused on from here on out as well.

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  9. "Without his brother, he has no reason for the hunting life and the same with Dean."
    I have to disagree with you on the second half of this. While I agree that Sam would retire from hunting to a normal life without Dean (just as he always wanted), Dean has always embraced the hunting life and can't stand for innocents to die on his watch. The only time he tried for a normal life was because of a dying promise to Sam after "Swan Song" and even then he kept researching how to get Sam back and was checking into a potential case in his area when he was poisoned by the Djinn. Dean will always be a hunter.

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  10. I didn't take it as a hint that Sam also looked for Dean when he was in purgatory.

    More that he was pissed at his brother and hit out in the way that little brothers could - the worse way possible because they can take a small seed of known truth and use it to hit in the worse place it could imaginably hit. Sam knew that Dean wouldn't want him to bring him back if he knew the possibility of hurting someone else - he had seen Dean's reaction when he did it in Faith but at the same time just saying he wouldn't do something to save his brother hit at every abandonment and family issue that Dean had. Then he didn't know how to take it back until it was too late because like it or not his words did mean Dean wallowed in his own self loathing, gave him less reason to fight against the mark. Sam's actions in not researching anything about the mark, when he first knew about its affects on Dean (like when he first got told Dean had gotten a mark from the father of murder) meant that the only source Dean had to go to on the mark was Crowley.

    When Sam was using his powers or was soulless you had Dean not sure of what was happening to his brother or how to take it when something didn't feel right, it translated to Sam as not trusting Sam as a person. But this time Sam being pissed and lashing out with anything he had translated to Dean as not caring at all and only really wanting to interact when they were working, Seeds that like it or not Sam sowed and never fully resolved with his brother considering Dean has the evidence to back up Sam's words about not doing what he had to to save him if he needed it - he didn't look for him while in purgatory.

    Now I got that Sam needed time to work through what happened to him, but by the same token it isn't like the rest of the universe sits back and will wait on it. As you said the boys work better together, Sam held Dean at arms length once he found out about Gadreel so you can't be surprised that Dean stayed at arms length after Sam told him that they weren't brothers but just coworkers. You can't blame Dean for the bromance with Crowley over the blade when Sam wasn't exactly telling Dean he was interested in it other than getting Abaddon, because really who did Dean have to talk to about the effects of it without feeling he was being judged, just like Sam felt with Ruby and his powers.

    They are both as bad as each other with regard to communicating, just with who they are a lot of damage can be done through it.

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  11. That is what kind of scares me, DemonDean in a chair while Sam has to try and cure him sounds to me that Dean is not going to have a filter to bury his feelings. All the issues he has with regard to his brother are going to come out and be amplified through the words of demon Dean.

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  12. That's why I suggested that the Mark likely has to be removed or transferred to 'someone else' before a 'cure' is attempted on our other discussion. As a matter of 'fact' :D I would like Sam and Cas to meet Cain somehow.

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  13. IIRC in interviews both Jared and Misha said S10 would pick up right after the ending of S9 with no annoying time jumps.

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  14. For me the only way season 10 will be interesting is if Dean stays as a demon for longer then just a few episodes. This should at least encompass the entire season. I want to see Crowley and Dean doing many bad things with the eventually Dean backstabbing Crowley to take his place as the new King of Hell.

    It would be cool to see Sam and Castiel working more closely together, going on hunts together, etc with the main missions being to save Dean. I don't want an easy fix though to happen either.

    I just want season 10 to be good at this point and not "more of the same". Do something ballsy with demon Dean that fans will say, "I can't believe they actually went there".

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  15. The idea of Sam lying about not looking for Dean interests me. I think Carver had him not look to try to say that Sam sees the need for independence, while Dean can't, but then we've repeatedly seen signs that Sam can't really deal with independence either (both season finales), so I don't know.


    I don't think Cas really wants to be an angel anymore, he just feels he has no choice, and now has nothing else to live for.


    I appreciate how much time you take with these thoughtful reviews. They've been a real highlight this season. Thank you.

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  16. A conversation between Sam and Cain would be amazing, because it would fit the parallels of Cain talking to someone that reflects Abel and Sam talking to someone that now reflects Dean.


    Perhaps the Mark needs to be transferred to someone else, and if it happens to be Cain again, I think he will end up becoming a baddie for the Winchester Brothers.

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  17. Possibly. IF Dean goes back on his "promise" to kill Cain.

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  18. I think it might depend on when Cain makes his appearance and if that's his only appearance in the series' run. And if Crowley/Demon Dean are only one of the Big Bads in S10 (I'm trying not think that show will go the predictable route and have Metatron escape, especially as the Angel Tablet is broken).

    For all we know at the moment, you may be right and around maybe mid-seasonish 'cured' Dean will give the FB back to Cain rather than killing him. Crowley and Dean may re- team up with Sam and Cas to defeat enraged Cain, First Blade in hand again, the Cain who slew thousands before meeting Colette.

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  19. That suggestion is if only Cain has to take the Mark back and Dean can't kill Cain that way, so maybe Cain ends up becoming a baddie through that way.

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  20. Who knows, Cain could team up with Metatron(if he were to escape).

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  21. I am not happy to see it because http://bit.ly/1jP7iTj

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  22. Cain still has his mark; he duplicated it on Dean's arm. In First Born after the scene where he gives Dean the Mark and demons were attacking them, Cain teleports Dean & Crowley outside, rolls his sleeves up and you can see his own Mark.

    I agree Cain can become a SPN future Baddie especially if DD manages to trick Cain by getting him to agree to remove the Mark if DD kills Cain. At that moment KoHDemon Dean could be more powerful than Cain or something may interfere with his intention to keep his promise and he can't kill Cain at that time. Cain hasn't held the FB in ~ 150 years since Colette's death and a fresh urge to kill may overcome him.

    The way I'd like an appearance by Cain to go is something like this: Cain learns Dean is dead and has become a demon because of the MoC/First Blade.

    He seeks out Sam (or vice versa, Sam seeks Cain out for help with 'saving Dean') and the rest plays out as you said. Sam explains how he overcame Lucifer only because he had his brother Dean's love - maybe Cain agrees to help with Dean to partially redeem himself for making a deal with Lucifer without waiting to see what Abel did first.

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  23. Ahhh.... just no ;) Magnificent Demon Cain teamed with Metatron the weasel angel... quickly crosses self :D

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  24. I know that Cain still has his mark, but he would still have to be the only one to take it back from Dean, and I agree with the idea that maybe taking The First Blade once again, he'll have that urge as fresh as Dean had once he held the blade. It could easily make sense to because as you mentioned, it's been more than a century since he used the blade.

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  25. Weasel angel?


    Cain as the muscle and Metatron as the brains…why not?

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  26. But Dean was keeping a promise to Sam. The way the season played out, he DID want Lisa and Ben. Sam was surprised at the end of Exile on Main Street that Dean wouldn't be going with him.


    Maybe Dean "could" have been happy with Lisa and Ben if he knew Sam was ok (like if Castiel had gotten Sam out and taken his soul to heaven) but Dean could never ever be happy knowing Sam was in the cage.

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  27. Gosh, Peter, that is so right. Sam absolutely fell apart when Dean died in Season 3. Absolutely.

    I think people WANT to think Sam looked for Dean after Season 7; I would prefer that he had but ran out of ideas pretty quickly (no Bobby, no Castiel, no Balthazar, no DEAN to bounce things off of). Situation reversed, if Sam disappeared Dean would've tortured demons until he got some answers he could use. Of course the Leviathans CAME from Purgatory so that might've been a place to start but my hindsight is of no use to Sam.


    I actually think the writers have trashed Sam so much these last two years. I want the Sam I love back.

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  28. Hasn't Dean already 'unloaded', and more than once, last season? Once with the coin, and then in Sacrifice. He also 'unloads' regularly throughout the season.

    What might be good, if Dean is tied to the chair or whatnot, is if, if Dean decides to unload again, Sam can reply, and tell him what he has already told him and Dean didn't hear/ignored/misinterpreted ie he believed he was dead, that he didn't say they weren't brothers (and he didn't say that), he didn't say that he'd just let him die (he said that in the same circumstances he would do the same thing Dean did ie trick him into being possessed and then lying to him about it for months). Demon Dean probably won't care but hopefully, when Dean is cured, he'll remember it and take it on board. From there, Dean can start considering Sam as an equal and less like a piece of property, which will do wonders for their relationship.

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  29. I don't count Scarifice as Dean unloading, it wa a speech of reassurance after Sam unloaded about how Sam is the most important thing in the world to him.


    As for the coin look at everything that came up during that, stuff that at the time Dean started to try and work through and then was told to suck it up. The only closure he got on any of his issues was with his father and that was due to Henry being flung in his face. A Henry that didn't give him a suck it up Princess speech or as Sam told him just after the coin to let the purgatory thing go or he'll walk. Henry took it and afterwards Dean's feeling with regard to both Henry and John felt better informed.


    There is a habit when Dean unloads he gets hit with suck it or that other things are more important or with the purgatory stuff, Sam will walk. But that doesn't mean that Dean feels he is heard or that he actually resolves things. Sam may have said where he was coming from with regard to purgatory, but Dean told him where he was coming from with the possession. Sam was allowed to be pissed, he had reason to even though he knew where Dean was coming from. Didn't Dean have the same right to hang onto that anger until he worked through it, just like Sam did with Gadreel?


    Both Sam and Dean are bad at communicating, both are bad at seeing where the other one comes from because both run back to the mode they are use to playing. When the going gets tough Dean tries to take control (the dictatorship comment, the bossing Sam around) but by the same token Sam acts like a little brother (the speech at the end of Sacrifice, the words in the purge worded in a way that he knew how Dean would take it, using the cavaet about the agreement in his reasoning for not looking because thinking Dean is dead is enough reason not to look, but to throw the agreement in means that he was also telling Dean it was his own fault that Sam didn't look. Sam was just following what his big brother told him to do).


    Both have to properly clear the air without either holding back to get to a point where they can both be emotional equals. Sam is a little brother, it gives him the get out clause to fall back on old traits not to take full responsibility sometimes and can issue threats about walking to get his brother to drop things he doesn't want to talk about. Just like Dean is a big brother and a control freak. Neither are good at clearing that air properly and JC did seem to imply they had more to fight about before that punch. A demonDean won't be shut up by Sam saying drop it or he'll walk. Sam needs to hear Dean's full feelings and wrath so he can actually work through that too and deal with it so he can show Dean he is a full emotional equal just like Dean needs to say it to show he considers Sam an equal because holding back means that he is frightened how Sam will take things.

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  30. I have so much hopes for Cain storyline and appearance of Abel somehow at some point would be awesome.

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  31. Exactley, stop the fight and finally unite the angels over one goal - saving humanity. That would be great, yes, but hope not without some bursts of individuality complex: some angels just like it here.

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  32. In Sacrifice, Dean listed out all the things Sam needed to 'confess', even though he had long atoned for most of them, and one of which he didn't even do.


    In the coin thing, Dean once again brought up stuff that Sam had long atoned for, spent hundreds of years in the Cage for.


    The problem is not that Sam threatens to walk, it's that Dean never stops unloading. He had been 'unloading' for almost half a season at that stage. Sam already told him where he was coming from, why he didn't look, and still Dean kept on 'unloading'. Dean certainly had the right to be angry, and he was. However, at some stage he has to think about why other people do what they do, and if he wants to, use that to get over his anger. Note I said 'if he wants to', I doubt he wants to. Dean holds a grudge like no man, because this allows him to be that 'dictator'. His anger at others allows him to keep them in line.


    Yes, Dean told him why he did what he did. Unfortunately, he didn't all ow Sam to get angry. Initially, he left, then he tried to blame outside circumstances, then he pulled out the Dean pity party, claiming he was poison. At no stage did he allow Sam to get angry. At no stage did he accept that what he did was wrong, or that he had let his brother down, or that he needed to make things right with Sam for what he did. It seems that this, in most instances, is something that is reserved for Sam and Sam alone to do. On the contrary. Dean said he would do it again.


    Sam never said it was Dean's fault that he was left in Purgatory. Dean didn't tell him to do it. The deal was made by both of them and agreed to by bother of them because their line of work makes it necessary. Sam and Dean have the ability to do damn near anything to bring the other back. That doesn't mean they should. As hunters, and as men, they have a responsibility to think about the impact of their actions on others. They cannot put themselves before the welfare of others. Unfortunately, the show now presents it that this is what they should do because this is what 'brothers' do.


    I've yet to see Sam fall back on 'old traits' in not taking responsibility. I've only seen Sam take responsibility for the Apocalypse, despite the fact that Dean played a equal role in it. I don't see Sam denying that he chose a supernatural entity over his brother, which is something Dean has also done. I don't see Dean seeking to make amends to Castiel for leaving him in Purgatory, or Mrs. Tran for believing she was dead when she was not. Dean is a control freak, but he does not get to control his brother. If Dean truly believes in free will, then he has to show that to his brother. You can be a control freak without going that far.


    If DemonDean does get to 'unload', and presumably he will because that's all that he does, then I hope DemonDean also gets to listen. Perhaps when he's pumped with Sam's blood he might, for once.


    Sam knows how much of a bastard he is, how selfish he is, how all he's ever done is let Dean down, how a vampire is a better brother than he ever was etc. I don't think Dean has ever had a problem 'holding back'. it's restraining himself is Dean's problem.

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  33. Look at the tone that Dean lists that stuff that isn't unloading, that isn't said in a tone that he and Sam are actually getting it off their chest to move forward because Sam's comment at the end is the girl that was mentioned was Dean's thing not his.


    As for Dean and the Ruby thing. Sam in the cage, well that is Sam atoning for letting Lucifer out. In Dean's head they have never fully resolved Sam choosing Ruby over his brother, it doesn't matter if Sam makes a big attonement for it in a cosmic sense in a human sense, in a brotherly sense it has never been resolved. In fallen Idols Sam told him that he went with Ruby because he felt it gave him power and then told Dean if he didn't trust him it wouldn't work and he'd be better gone. Atonement and resolution are two different things and it ties into Dean feeling that anytime Sam doesn't get what Sam wants he runs. John atoned for his treatment of Dean by giving his life for his son, but that didn't actually resolve anything with regard to Dean's feelings about the man. There is a difference between atoning and apologising or even getting to work through how someone else's action affect you.


    That is part of the problem, Dean tries to unload and gets told to stick it because other things are going on or Sam threatens to walk and he never gets to work through it the only real time he got to storm out was when he had a confrontation with Henry. Everyother time it is Sam, Bobby or someone else telling him to shut up. It isn't healthy for either him or Sam. Sam feels he lets Dean down, let Dean be disappointed until he can get through his anger to let it go properly.


    Telling him to stick it or turning and saying he made him do it and if he doesn't shut up he'll go somewhere else doesn't resolve anything it causes things to fester, for grudges to be held and low self worth to be wallowed in because really if you feel you aren't listened to when you continually say the same thing you just feel worthless.


    As for Sam not being allowed to be angry. Well didn't Sam do the same thing, blame circumstance, blame the agreement, not accept that he was wrong not to look for Dean. He let Dean be angry at him ditching Kevin but got his nose put out of joint when Dean was pissed about Sam ditching him. The brothers are as bad as each other.

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  34. Well Sam said that he tried looking but, yes, didn't have friends to support him with ideas. He didn't have a map to Purgatory. He tried but found nothing and being emotionally damaged by that and previouse events he just stoped at some point... maybe just for a while... but then he met the girl. And yet I awlays felt his guilt even when he tried to be with her. Dean is more of an action guy while Sam is of analyzer so for him coming to terms that he had no data, no family or friends to back him up on searching for Dean he just found an easy way - to stop and to convince himself that he coudn't do anything at all at that point. We were not shown but maybe, in a while, he would have been back on track for Dean's whereabouts. As said many, many times it's their curse to always save/find each other cause the only death they would accept if it was of natural causes and every once and a while it's allowed for them to catch a break to sort everything out before getting back on the road.

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  35. Sam didn't say he tried to look, he said he didn't know where to start looking and no friends to help him.


    There is a difference.

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  36. Thanks for review, liked yours more, many toughts alike. I personally was quite satisfied with the finale. At least for me it felt more epick then any other shows' final eps I watch. I must say this year many of them have felt so completely out of finale characteristics... good example Grimm... that once again I've been proved how good and fan related Supernatural show is. It does have some issues but which of them does not? 10 year run is a big achievement and I still wanna be on the road with the whole supenatural family tree, their friends and foes. The ending just cemented for me that wish, helped to see all previose seasons under a new light brinning on the table a new beggining cause I really, really wanna know what will happen next.

    Regarding the words which Metatron said of Cas willing to save one human. I belive his speach was quite related to the previouse episode 9.22 when Cas was asked to punish Dean for presumably killing Tessa. Metatron had the tablet so of course he knew of that story finale - Cas refused to kill a friend, his human brother and "gave up the whole army for just one guy" - so Metatron made fun of Cas' decision as a leader and a savor of the day saying that he tried so hard and yet accomplished nothing but handcuffs and a dead friend as a result of his doings. As I said somehere else every supernatural thing on the show met Dean and liked or respected him from the start which can't be said of Sam who had to grow on them so it was natural to meantion Dean cause Cas was his guarding angel so to say. As odinary humans we wish to have such a thing like guarding angel on our shoulder, right? So what Gadriel said about saving humanity backs up what Metatron said - Cas failed his missioon as an angel: to keep human he was tasked with by higher power safe, to help and to be a friend. Cas was resurrected by unknown force we all consider as God for many times now. Why? To protect. I belive by protecting HIS human he protects all the humanity. So i am not suprised that as a higher being and an ancient one he does really love his human as a human, his soul in general, not that stupid gay thing (no offence to gay people, really).

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  37. There's also the fact that if Dean is cured he may still die. Because demons don't heal, and he's a walking corpse.

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  38. For God's sake guys. we loved the show for the brothers... I am really tired of all the drama between them. I don't care how but it will be frustrating to see them again apart for a lot of episodes. we are all talking about scenarios we like but I think we all forget that the brothers made the show what it is. that unconditionally love that true care for each other. I want them together and all the rest afterwards. I mean ok I love gas and finally more Crowley is great but I can't stand again 10 episodes or half a season with the brothers apart again. remember please a little why we all loved the show and became crazy fans about it

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  39. Also it's either stay an angel, or die with the burning grace.

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  40. I like to think the saving Riot was sort of a way for him to deal, the dog was in that moment something that he could save.

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  41. Even if he said "he didn't know where to start" he could say that if he made the first step in trying, right? But he soon understood there was nothing and no one to help. Well at least that is how I saw his actions at that time otherwise he would be a complete salfish ass who I am sure he was and is not. The caracter could be deeper if he is tired and feels powerless to help his brother. The situation was quite different from Dean's just dying, that time he vanished, got into realm no one knew about. There was more info of hell and heven then Purgatory in the books and scrolls. No one knew what and where Purgatory was to begging full gun search. I just can't belive that wright on his brother vanishing Same desided to stop, not to look after nd not to do anything. At least he valued his options and actions which for me is quite trying. :)

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  42. Couldn't Cass cope with the effects of the mark of cain as he is an angel. Maybe he could take it from Dean and they cna then cure him of being a demon and the fact that his bodyis actually dead is not really that much of a probelm for them all. I am sure they can find a way to heal him.

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  43. But he didn't. He said he didn't know where to start, had no friends to help him and there was an agreement not to look and he thought Dean was dead.


    All of that thrown together in a really short space of time buzzing around in Dean's head means, Dean disappeared and Sam took off and didn't bother. To Dean he came off as that salfish ass because remember when Dean got zapped back in time, Sam looked. He didn't know where Dean was but he looked.


    There was no guarantee Dean was in purgatory, he could have been in heaven or hell. He could have been unconscious in Montana for Sam knew, Cas carved a sigil on his chest and didn't end up in heaven, he ended up on the other side of the US.


    All of Sam's reasonings thrown together at the same time got diluted into Dean hearing one real thing - Sam didn't look because he is saying Dean told him not to and he just went along with that and hit a dog and got a life. Dean was out of Sam's sight so was out of Sam's mind while he was fighting to get home. Sam didn't really try to make Dean understand about how broken he was before he hit Riot, what his and Amelia's relationship was based on. He held onto that agreement and Dean was 'dead' with no evidence. It is his right but by the same token he can't dictate how Dean will take that if he isn't telling Dean in terms he'll get the whole story. He may have explained it to Kevin but he didn't explain it to Dean so they could both resolve things.

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  44. If Dean has to consent to transferring the mark of cain, I wonder if he would though, while still a demon. Cain did but that was only after a long reign of terror. While the writing is a little inconsistent on this, I don't think demons are supposed to have the full gamut of human emotions.

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  45. I could definitely see Sam seeking out Cain as one of his next steps in learning more about the mark. I have Crowley, rather than Cain, pegged as the next big bad (after Dean), but who knows?

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  46. I'm really tired of this warring and would welcome a change to where they a united faction with an interest in all of this that's maybe somewhat aligned, but also conflicting in parts, with the Winchesters. One of the key difference between humanity and angels has been that humans put more importance on the individual and emotions. I'd love to see angels good again, but having adopted more of distanced, guardians, big-picture role.

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  47. The idea of "curing" a demon never made a lot of sense given what we knew about demons from Ruby, so you have a point about them being walking corpses. But there's been a lot of changes to the mythology recently that don't match up to what we learned in earlier years. I've given up fighting most of it.


    It's possible Dean could still die I suppose, but Crowley didn't seem physically weakened by the partial curing experience, and I can't image that the show wouldn't use this spell to fix Dean before the end - since it was so obviously inserted for this very situation.

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  48. The idea of no filter scares me a little too, but I think for different reasons. I think Sam is used to Dean unloading and can handle it. I'm not sure that I want to sit through episode after episode of Dean sorting through all of his childhood trauma. We got 1.5 episode for Sam to process and react to his soullessness period. I'm hoping for the same with Dean, or else this show just gets buried in too much angst.

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  49. Yes! They used to have discussions where the articulated their thoughts (which weren't always about blaming each other for everything) and heard each other. And they remembered what they heard into the next episode. I'd love to get back to having an occasional one like that every now and again.

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  50. I've always thought of Dean as very repressed and masking a very deep darkness with his attitude and jokes. It was interesting how dark the Veritas episode was. The Gamble era really emphasized hunting seem like a bloody, damaging, self-destructive path rather than something noble - as we were led to believe in earlier years. Another example was Appointment in Samarra, when we learned that their actions continually disrupt the natural order and set off a ripple effect of despair. While it was interesting to see the other side, it started to make me wonder whether I should really be rooting for Sam and Dean.


    On the Sam looking part, a lot of what Sam did or didn't do has been left so vague, that there's still room for elaboration without undermining the story that Sam did at some point hit a dog and move on. I thought Crowley here was implying that Sam's first reaction when Dean disappeared was to try to make a deal. And Sam's "I lied" comment, while typically vague, opened up the door that he may have been misleading Dean about a lot more of what happened in these past couple of seasons.

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  51. I think Sam intentionally said some things that he knew would hurt Dean after finding out about the Gadreel possession in part because he was lashing out in anger, and in part because Dean didn't seem to be getting the point that Sam has been making since season 5, and that is he can't keep treating Sam like a five-year-old. Making a deal with Gadreel was one thing, but lying to Sam for weeks or months as if Sam isn't an adult capable of making his own decisions is a big root of the problem. Dean needs to start seeing Sam as an adult. And Dean knocking Sam out in this episode demonstrated that even now, Dean still doesn't get it.


    While Sam's "I lied" comment was very vague, I thought that by Crowley saying that Sam summoning him was "expected" implied that Sam tried to make a deal after Dean disappeared into Purgatory.


    I'm not sure what you mean about Sam not researching the mark. Sam reacted when he first heard about the mark with surprise/concern (until he got distracted by a comment Dean made about Crowley), and we saw at least one scene of Sam researching the mark on the Internet. We saw Dean was researching it more, but Sam was still angry with Dean and I'm not sure fully realized what was happening. I thought his reaction was realistic.


    I agree with you that Crowley has played a similar role to Dean this season as Ruby played to Sam in season 4, and that they have both become very poor communicators.

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  52. Thank you for the nice words! And thank you for coming by most weeks to talk about the reviews! It gets lonely if no one wants to talk to you about them, and I appreciate your efforts in commenting.


    On the Sam/Dean part, this gets to the root of the co-dependence. It may start with an unhealthy need/response from one person (in this case Dean's refusal to let Sam grow up), but it has an effect on the other person and changes them. They may want to break free, but they're emotionally tied to an unhealthy degree to the other out of guilt and a sense of responsibility. Hence, the "co" in co-dependence.


    I felt like Cas has been struggling with the question of whether he wanted to be an angel (as well as a leader) for a few seasons now, but Gadreel's speech made Cas realize that he did. But we'll have to see how this falls out in the next season. These things have a tendency to change.

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  53. I don't understand why he can't physically remove his grace (like Metatron removed his original grace) and become human again. Anna is another example of an angel who ripped out her own grace.

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  54. That is my point his reaction to the mark was one that was realistic for someone who is pissed. He noted it but that was really it, we didn't see him researching it from the get go. Whenever Sam is hurting or has something supernatural happening to him that Dean has a name for, Dean does something proactive.


    Sam and the trials, which were obviously changing him Dean made soup, tended to Sam etc but Sam could see the mark and the blade effects and his solution lock the blade up where it is still in reach of Dean and use it for big bads. Until they knew that the blade shouldn't have been 100miles near Dean after him going postal on Magnus and it taking time for him to drop it infront of Sam.


    Sam saw what it did to Dean and we didn't get to see him do much with regard to researching things in fact I can't mind him actually researching the mark so if you can let us know the episode it would be great.


    As for the 'it's expected' part from Crowley, I didn't take it for anything to do with purgatory I took it is Sam just watched his brother die and has a body, he's feeling guilty about it - he'll ask. Nothing to do with purgatory.


    Both guys are bad at communicating as much as Sam needs to be seen as an adult, Dean also needs to be seen as a person too. Sam kind of sees him as this semi parental figure due to their upbringing, but Dean is only four years older than him. He is not Sam's father, he can't be simply expected to drop his issues so Sam can feel that his are being addressed.


    There is a point when you grow up when you realise that the adults in your lives are as flawed as you, crave the same things as you, need the same stability as you. Sam needs Dean to accept him as an equal be able to deal with him as an equal, well Dean needs the same thing. He needs Sam to accept him as an equal, that Sam can accept him as a human being that needs stability in the form of familiar bonds because right now even though Sam has every right to be pissed about the lying about the possession Dean had a right to be pissed last season and Sam's response wasn't to really get that Dean would eventually work through it, it was to tell him that if he didn't suck it up he'd walk.


    Neither are communicating in terms that the other gets.

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  55. Thanks for commenting. I guess I was struck by how much emphasis the writers seemed to be putting on the angels' reactions (not just Metatron's, but the Hannah group as well) that Cas's relationship with Dean compromises him and pulls him away from the mission. That and the fact that Dean is a weapon and there doesn't seem to be an easy fix to this situation. I made a comparison in my review of last week's episode of Dean being weaponized with the angels becoming suicide bombers. I thought they were symbolic of what was going on with Dean. The weapon language was again used in this episode, with Sam objecting to using Dean as a weapon. If Cas hasn't already made a choice, I think he's going to have to soon - support Dean or fully commit to the angel mission.

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  56. I love the brothers too, but I'd actually welcome some time apart if the two are shown as still being strongly connected and focused on each other. One thing I liked about this episode is that it had a strong brother focus - some negative, some positive - but still driving the episode.

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  57. This is one scenario I don't want to see. We already had the Cas instant fix with Sam in season 7. Cas should be something other than a first aid kit.


    Although I don't know if transferring the mark is even possible (other posters pointed out that Cain still appeared to have the mark at the end of the earlier episode), I thought transferring it to Sam it would serve as a fitting conclusion to both Dean and Sam's current character arcs - Dean would have to come to trust in Sam as an adult and equal, and Sam would be able to see his "curse" (the demon blood) as something positive that could save his brother, rather than something that's only evil.

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  58. Thats how I see it. First of all its about tryng to rescue and save Dean with Crowley trying to turn him to the dark side then when Dean is human again the boys go all out after Crowley and he is the big bad. Dean can use his demon knowledge against Crowley.
    The problem I think the show has with the big bad is that at first it was demons and then the devil himself. After that any villian is going to seem a bit of a let down, as the most dangerous creatures and biggest threats are the demons as they appear have an endless supply. And you can't get more threatening than the apocalypse. So it's hard to get a sense of danger from any of them. Crowley would make a great big bad as he is the king of hell and so all demons.

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  59. We saw Sam researching the Mark of Cain in Blade Runners.

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  60. So after he decided that Abaddon was a big threat and they needed to kill her which would mean the blade?


    So after Dean coldly killed the guy in #Thinman and after Cas reacted to Dean having the mark?


    Sorry it doesn't paint Sam as proactively looking into the mark to see how the mark would simply affect Dean. I get a lot of it was that Sam was angry but it also tied into Dean feeling that Sam didn't view him as a brother seeing how he didn't make much of a fuss about it.

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  61. I don't think continually upping the danger by the big bads is the solution. The show should have strong character stories to carry it, with the big bad used a device to create tension and put the characters in situations that challenge them and build on to their character stories. In fact, when the big bads get too big, the problem arises that it becomes unrealistic for the human leads to be able to defeat them.


    Then we have a different problem, and that is that secondary characters are needed to actually do the fighting, and the story gets away from what should be the focus, which is the character stories of the main cast.

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  62. I think Sam started becoming becoming suspicious and more actively researching the mark when he started noticing changes in Dean. That makes sense to me. Cas didn't become aware of the mark until much later - episode 21 I think.

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  63. I think that's the hard choice Cas has already made particularly when Metatron told him the one human he cared for was dead. To hang to 'life' as long as he could and die with dignity getting the 'angel mission' (to protect humanity) back on track.

    But I doubt S10 will play out that way. Early in the season, likely the premiere, I think Sam will discover Dean's body is gone and the last place he knew Cas and Gadreel went was Heaven. He may 'pray' to Cas or just possibly Cas will come to Sam to for confirmation of Dean's death.

    Cas may decide that finding out what happened to Dean is worth accepting other angel juice and I think Metatron is an acceptable source until Cas and the other angels find his original grace - Metatron would become 'human'/mortal just as he did to Cas in the S8 finale (I'm just assuming his original grace wasn't used up in the spell that cast the angels out -otherwise in helping Sam find Dean - speculation - might require multiple recharges).

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  64. But how would Sam be able to cope with the mark as he is also human, not a demon!

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  65. I'm shaky on that point myself. When Metatron cut Cas's throat in the S8 finale and Cas's flowed into M's vial, M healed Cas and sent C back to earth full grown, more like "The End" Cas who told Dean that his angel mojo just drained away when the angels 'left'. Maybe it (cutting grace out to 'fall' ) works differently when an angel in Heaven does this - maybe the angel has to literally be reborn as a human.

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  66. Dean knocking Crowley off the throne and taking it for himself would be interesting -- especially since that was supposed to be Sam's destiny. It makes sense too. Abaddon challenged Crowley, why not Dean?

    On the other hand, I have zero interest in the Sam and Cas show, but then I don't have all that much interest in Cas, so there's that.

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  67. But if the big bad is not that much of a threat then it cannot cause much tension. I am not implying that the big bads become too big, just that it needs to be a threat that has real consequences. My comment was that after the apocalypse how much more of a threat can the boys face so it must be difficult to try to create a big bad that gives them a believable motive for eveything.

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  68. Of course the Leviathans CAME from Purgatory so that might've been a place to start but my hindsight is of no use to Sam.

    Even if Sam did come to the logical conclusion that the blast sent Dean and Cas to Purgatory, he had no reason to just assume Dean was alive; to that point both bros had to actually die to get into Heaven/Hell/The Cage and the Alpha Vamp confirmed Bobby's research that Purgatory was filled with 'Monster Souls' not living Monsters.

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  69. Maybe Cas found out about it then. The problem is Sam researching the mark is ambiguous, it is definitely after him coming round to hunting Abaddon, it definitely after Dean kills someone in Thinman and yet we don't really hear him challenge Dean about the changes the mark maybe doing to him until after Abaddon. Sure he looked worried in Blade Runners but he didn't voice it to Dean in fact he was happy for Dean to try and decapitate Crowley not too long after seeing Dean had to fight to drop the thing.


    Carver did a number on Sam, I get it was to make the last episode more dramatic but you had a number of episodes of Dean picking up after Sam in the trials and then when Dean announces he has a supernatural mark from the father of murder and working with Crowley, Sam isn't actually seen (which is the important thing) to do much until he can put a personal face on what Abaddon is doing.


    It does mean that Sam can be accused of not really caring. It makes Dean hitting him to knock him out so he can go fight Metatron alone understandable, not simply arrogant. It's Dean fight, he doesn't see himself walking out of it, he's the weapon and the blunt instrument, he is the nuclear weapon that everyone is agreed is going to go off and he sees very little to fight to stay in this world for because they all have other stuff to focus on. Just use the mark to get a job done and that will be it. No point of putting anyone he cares about in way to get hurt from either him or Metatron.


    Now Sam may have said he didn't want that to Cas and Gadreel, but he didn't say that to Dean he didn't remind Dean that he wasn't a weapon but his brother. He said they'd do things together but that didn't imply that he doesn't expect Dean to survive especially when Dean tells him he's doing it no matter the consequences, Dean was telling him he didn't expect to come out. In fact he tells him his real friends are doing things - well Gadreel hasn't acted as a real friend to Dean, Sam wakes up to Kevin's blood on his hands but as Sam pointed out Dean let him in the front door, he's the one Gadreel also tricked, he's got a different type of guilt from Gadreel At least he knew what he was getting from Crowley.

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  70. To be fair, they knew from "Faith" on exactly what the consequences were. "Appointment in Samarra" was only a reminder in a much more hands on sense of what those consequences were.

    I agree about Sam's season eight backstory being vague. I'd go so far as to say that he didn't really move on. It's suggested in "Hunteri Heroici" that he was living in a kind of dream world -- avoiding rather than facing his grief and his "real" life.

    I know a lot of fans who say that Sam thought Dean was dead, he did say that, or just wouldn't have known where to look. I don't buy that. There was no body to indicate that for sure he was dead, and it seems pretty logical that Dick Roman would have been pulled back into purgatory. It's getting Dean out and the consequences that would have caused Sam problems. I can see him driving the country doing research and seeking advice becoming more and more desperate and despondent -- unable to fix the problem -- when he hit the dog and found things that he could "fix" a fan, a hurt dog, a grieving widow. Wait .. who's writing this story? LOL

    Or maybe we're giving Carver more credit for long-term planning and nuance than he deserves.

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  71. I agree w/all your comments, but think it really comes down to the (usual) bad writing and lack of POV Sam gets. Nothing Sam did in S8 made sense or was in character for Sam, but Carver wrote it that way anyway. Even Jared found Sam highly OOC last year.

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  72. He's got demon blood in him. The trials started to purify that but they were abandoned. It was established in season 5 that the purpose of the demon blood was to make his body strong enough to contain Lucifer,and not start to come apart like Lucifer's first vessel did. The mark came from Lucifer, so I'm thinking it's the same idea.

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  73. Yeah . . . Carver trashed Sam for the past two seasons. I'm not shocked. That's the pattern w/Sam: shoddy, inconsistent writing.



    You'd think w/Dean having the mytharc, we'd see a reversal and give Sam the POV about Dean's mytharc but we got nothing. As you pointed out, no scenes (that I can recall) of Sam researching the MoC, talking to Castiel in detail about it, worrying about Dean, talking to Dean about how Dean feels, etc.


    The writers didn't bother to write for Sam . . . as usual.

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  74. It seems Sam no longer cares about the possession (i.e., Gad was a "real" friend), and Sam most certainly did say they were NOT brothers.



    S: I thought you were still upset about last night.
    D: You mean, the part where you said we weren't brothers.

    S: Yeah.
    D: No. I don't break that easy.


    That was from my memory but that's how I remember that conversation going. Why would Dean NOT think Sam doesn't want to be brothers? Sam doesn't clarify. He agrees w/Dean's interpretation of his words so I think Dean got it right.



    Having said that, I had a problem w/the writing, not Sam in those two episodes. I thought Sam had every right to be upset w/Dean, but the actual things he said could have been written in a better way. That, however, was not the point. It seems the point was to make Dean even more susceptible to the MoC and the Blade so Sam was an afterthought . . . as usual.



    The writing for Sam is awful, IMO.

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  75. Hopefully we'll get his POV next season unless Carer decides we are to empathise more with Demon Dean.


    It does seem that is the aim Dean got his mytharc but for it to organically go to Sam's POV we'd have to have a reason not to focus on Dean's viewing of the situation.

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  76. If that is the case I would not like to see that. As the Mark of Cain turns people into demons what would it do to Sam, and yes he may be strong enough to cope but then we would be back in the same situation again with Sam trying to stay human and Dean looking after huim. I want an answer that does not involve Sam taking over the mark from Dean as i do not think that would do Dean's low self-esteem any good, knowin his little brother can cope witht he mark when he coldn't, even if it is because of the demon blood. I want to see Sam saving Dean but not by taking on the mark, and if Cass took it it would not be really him as a first aid kit as they would stillhave to deal with Dean beign a demon and his body being dead.
    Maybe the whole story this season will be Crowley trying to take the Mark from Dean as it would probably make him more powerful than ever and would ensure no one ever tried to take over hell agin. He could try to persuade Dean to give him the mark.

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  77. Well, if Sam doesn't have the POV or the mytharc, then he'll have nothing like he did for most of this season. I don't expect him to get the POV though. I have long since believed the writers see Sam as a plot point and don't care much about his character, and my view hasn't changed.



    I expect the POV to remain w/Dean, which makes sense b/c the arc is happening to him but that's not how the story has been told in the past. When something crazy was happening to Sam, we mostly saw it through Dean's eyes so people expected to see Dean's story through Sam's eyes. So far, that hasn't happened, and I highly doubt it will. I'm sure the POV will stay w/Dean. Jared will likely have an easy year next year b/c I don't anticipate him doing much.

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  78. Sam's already a human-demon hybrid. There would be no need for the mark to turn him into a full demon. The idea with Dean trusting Sam to take it on wouldn't be to get Dean worrying about, but to come to realize that he doesn't need to worry as much as he does.

    While I agree Dean has self-esteem issues, Dean has never had a problem with putting himself as a leader / hero / martyr role. His struggle has been with accepting that he deserves a happy ending. Dean being left as a demon or with the mark does nothing to pull him out of the martyr role. And if his actions create a bigger evil in Crowley, that does nothing to help either. But we agree to disagree here.

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  79. The bottom line is this for me: I'm tired of conflict between the Winchesters being the driving force in the narrative. While demon Dean is an interesting idea, I don't want to see it drawn out. I'm not interested in the Sam & Cas and Dean & Crowley show.



    Sam and Dean will always have their disagreements, but I'd like to see them actually learn from their mistakes -- lying and keeping secrets always comes back to bite them on the ass.They are stronger together than apart. I want to see them working as a team. Why is that too much to ask?

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  80. That is the kicker fot me, too... demon Dean might not want the mark removed if he's a full- powered KOH now. Maybe this is where Cain can intercede on DD's behalf. He might not to have ever wanted Dean to die and become a demon in the first place. And it might depend on how much influence Sam still has on Dean. I have no idea how the demon Dean storyline will play out.

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  81. Can't stand Metatron - he makes my skin crawl, lol

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  82. I think we're in agreement here. The threat and the consequences should be real and personal, but they don't need to top the apocalypse to accomplish that.

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  83. The problem as the posters see it is will Demon Dean want to give up the mark (transfer the Mark back to Cain) to anyone else - demon (Crowley/Cain/ other demon) or human? MoC canon as defined so far says the Mark can only be given to someone 'worthy' - a killer like Cain and what Dean saw himself as. Sure, Demon Dean can transfer the Mark to Crowley as a prelude to be cured - and add a magnitude to Crowley's destructive strength - but I doubt the Mark could just be transferred to Sam or Cas.

    That's even IF the show considers the Mark a problem at all as far as the 'demon cure ritual' goes - we may be over thinking again and to the show a 'demon is a demon' no matter how powerful.

    I think Cain might have to be tricked somehow into taking back the mark and then he would make a great baddie. We already know that Crowley will volunteer to take the MoC but that's too easy a solution.

    That's if the season plays out 'this way' - Demon Dean & Crowley might trick Sam as other posters have suggested but getting past Cas may be a problem.

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  84. Imo, that makes for an amazing villain.

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  85. Considering how many times Dean has rejected the brotherhood (dumping the amulet, saying they'll never be the same again, saying Benny was more of a brother than Sam had ever been, can it even be said they were brothers at the time Sam said this?

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  86. As the first person that carried the Mark, MAYBE canon can be bent in that Cain could forcefully take the Mark back from Dean, and that would be something I wouldn't question if that's how the story goes.


    I do hope that carrying the Mark, being a possible Knight of Hell puts a wrench in the whole "cure a demon" spell. Going that route of just curing Dean would be way too easy and almost laughable that Carver even goes that direction.

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  87. Abel appearing as a spirit, or maybe during a visit to Heaven and speaking to him, that would be pretty awesome.

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  88. Crowley being a baddie is so old after we've seen seasons six and eight, imo. I would hope Crowley remains in the 'middle ground' until his death or the series ends, lol.

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  89. I don't think Dean could even stay happy living a normal life. That's really the biggest difference with Sam and Dean in that Sam can see himself moving on, living a normal life when Dean can't see that other path in his life at all.

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  90. I think what hunters do is noble, but I feel that a lot of them do feel that what they do is very bloody work and is also depressing. The viewer can even tell how depressing that lifestyle is after watching the series for nine years and it definitely reflects how they think of their lives when we have seen characters that think what Sam and Dean go is for the good of all mankind(for example, Charlie).

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  91. Agree. The Leviathans were sent to Purgatory from God, but Purgatory is known to be a place for the souls of monsters, which Leviathans do not have. It's not an easy assumption to say Dean and Cas are sent to Purgatory when the "Alpha" Leviathan didn't have a soul; by killing the Leviathan with the weapon, that's what sent them all packing to Purgatory where the master Leviathan now rests once more.

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  92. I can't say Dean has ever really dumped the brotherhood, so we will have to just agree to disagree.

    I hated, and I mean absolutely HATED, when Dean dumped that amulet in Sam's face. I thought that was awful. In fact, I hated DSOTM for the very slanted view it gave of their Heavens, and the fact that I was supposed to believe that those three memories comprised ALL of Sam's Heaven or that Dean doesn't have any happy memories w/o Sam. Come on! That episode was manipulative crap, IMO. But we see at the end of that Sam that Dean is willing to die right along w/Sam. He sticks by his brother so Sam doesn't have to die alone.

    And I hated the Benny line too but given the context and circumstances - Sam not looking for Dean and seemingly upset w/Dean's return (again my issue in S8 is w/Carver and the writers not Sam as he was completely OOC and unrecognizable until ATGB) - I can't say I don't understand why Dean felt that way. Regardless, at the end of the season, Dean made it very clear that no one - incl. Benny and Castiel and anyone else - came before Sam for him. Dean made it clear that Sam came first.

    My intent w/the prior post was to highlight the crappy, inconsistent, bad writing for Sam. I still love Sam just as much as I love Dean. I wish Carver would leave and Kripke would return.

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  93. I liked that line, Peter, but I wish everything wouldn't be left to the last episode when it comes to Sam. It makes it all seem like an afterthought or that it was just thrown in for no reason.



    For instance, why didn't Sam mention the nightmares to Castiel when he was removing the grace for him or during one of his arguments w/Dean? Why? Is there some rule against fleshing out the story when it comes to Sam and his POV? Haha! This happened to Sam at the end of the Gadreel possession. I think the episode right before Kevin was killed, Sam mentions losing time! Why would Carver wait until the story is over to drop that nugget?!?!?! How is this good storytelling?


    I'd love an episode about Sam, but you're right in that we probably won't get one.

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  94. I would love Cain to return to Supernatural because I love Tim Omundson. He has been cast in a leading role in Galivant, a show that has been picked up on ABC, so there will be scheduling issues to work around.

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  95. I think the Cain thing was just a gaff.

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  96. I like conflict and dramatic development but too much is too much, agree on that. Can't say I was too tied of their struggle but 9 season's rift was a bit too much to handle especially since it just kept on and on (starting in season 8; two seasons is quite enough!). I understand the need of this frigging snowball in order to tear the boys apart and to reach the finale of the season but that should really be it! - the culmination to overcome next season and to bring the guys together. I am sure it won't be easy and probably we'll see quite a lot of angst but at least I wanna see real steps and actions to bring Sam and Dean back together: to mutual respect, acceptance and stronger bro-bond. Guess you have to fell deep before rising higher...

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  97. That was my hope in season 7 and 8 too, but to be honest, at this point I've given up. I'm so tired of the toxic atmosphere, I'm starting to welcome a change.

    I'm wondering what evil Dean would look like. While people are expecting a lot of Dean-Crowley bro moments, maybe we'll find Dean's just not that into Crowley. Dean was pretty obsessed with Sam in life. What would that look like after death. My ideal scenario would be an Angelus/Buffy dynamic (without the romantic overtones).

    People are expecting a lot of pairing up between Sam and Cas, but a more interesting scenario is season 4, where Cas was conflicted by his duty as an angel and his personal feelings (imagine the conflict if Dean ends up #1 on the angels' most wanted list) and Sam partners up with someone new (preferably female). Sam's usually written as a much smarter, more competent hunter when the writers aren't dumbing him down to make someone else look better or help a villain get away.

    Then there are the questions of how far Sam would go with Dean as the monster? Dean struggled with this question through a good part of the early series, so it would be interesting to see this turned around.

    What I don't want:
    - Dean as a good monster who continues to hunt
    - No additional focus on Sam as his own individual
    - Cas or the angels sweeping in as the heroes in this story

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  98. I hope you're right because there needs to be some way to remove that thing. When I don't want is Dean cured as a demon and the mark dropped as a lost plot point. Or angels healing it.

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  99. Yes, there was an understanding back in season 1 and 2 that it was wrong to mess with the supernatural. It was what separated the hunters from the monsters. I think that message got lost over the seasons though, as Sam and Dean started developing more and more alliances and friendships with supernatural creatures.

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  100. I like conflict and dramatic development but too much is too much for sure! I can't say I was too tied of boys' struggle but it has been on and on for quite some time now (since season 8, maybe started earlier a bit), like a frigging snowball, and two seasons of angst is quite enough, yes. It reached culmination in season 9 finale so next season should be definitely a new beginning. I understand the need to tear Sam and Dean apart bad enough in order to move to a new direction and to start a new kinda story, to see known facts or events of the previouse years under a new and unexpected light and maybe start a new myth but I want boys back on track as well. I am sure such a big deal as demon nature and earlier fights can't be resolved so easy and for sure we will see a lot of angst but at least there should be tries and hope to repair the damage. I guess they had to fall pretty deep to rise and to find that wonderful bro-bond once again. As for the hopes of this new beginning, me too do jot want to sea Dean all that goody handsom demon, I want his struggle with the nature, maybe give in at some point but yet return from that dark side. I hope for a good portion of Sam to deal with the consequences of his words last season and a great need to bring Dean back while his own struggle wheath

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  101. Aren't Crowley told him that Dean ended at Purgatory in the finale? I forgot... cause I thought he did. Anyway I guess my hopes for Sam are still high, I just couldn't and actually can't believe he didn't even try to resurch.

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  102. The main problem I see is that no matter what they are going to do with the story we have at least 4 months to wait to find out! Not sure how I am going to cope.

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  103. Ha! Good answer!

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  104. As for season 10th hopes I also hope that show runners won't go easy on the mark just being removed cause it would be easy and would cross the words said by Cain to Dean that he was worthy of that mark. We know for sure that Knights of Hell didn't have that mark or any other kind; it was only Cain, whom Crowley called "the best at being the worst". The way I see it the Mark could either choose a person or reject, by its own will so to say. If so even if Dean tried to pass it on Crowley it would be possible for the Mark just not to accept him: either not to transfer at all or to kill. Yes, that goes with "chosen one" stuff and bla, bla... and I do not say the creators of the show should go there at full speed but if the Mark had deeper meaning to Dean's transformation it would be quite interesting. It was cool when Sam and Dean’s story was compared to Cain and Abel's. All that vibe of their destiny repeating itself, trying to break a curse of running in circles, set their lives free and choose at will… Those were
    the ideas I liked so much in seasons 5 and later, occasionally it happened, at 8 and now 9 so far.

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  105. Yes, I am sure Sam would love to help but by higher
    power (that would be creators) it seems that Dean had so much on his shoulders all
    that time while Sam was quite rebellious and ignorant quite often. Too many cases of Sam
    being in trouble! Dean had so much to clean up: obsession with Sam’s safety, worries
    of the world spinning around, saving good people. I think Sam accepted his
    brother’s very existence just as due too often which is why I want him to
    grow as a character by understanding what it’s like to take a responsibility
    for another person’s life and actions, to walk in Dean’s shoes for once to feel
    the deal of unconditional love for his sibling and why Dean would never let him
    go if there was a simple chance to save his little bro. I was pissed so much when Sam said that he wanted them to be just colleagues! I do not accept such conditions between siblings! By setting Lucifer free Sam screwed up unbelievably! And yet Dean accepted him back without any buts, especially learning his lesson of possiable future. Sam didn't have that luxury but now he has a chance and fully become an equal.

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  106. Don't tell me! No! Time will be a chewing gum... At least I have books about another pair of cool bros to kill the time. )))

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  107. I wish I could believe that the showrunner/writers were as thoughtful and creative as you. I'm not holding my breath on that though.

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  108. we all know its going to be the Dean and Crowley show, Sam and Cas have to have something to do or the actors may as well have been released from their contracts.

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  109. Thats avery one sided view of the show. Dean has plenty of lessons to learn from what has happened.
    IMO Sam's role next season will be to either save Dean or kill him. After all he knows Dean has become something he doesnt want to be. When Dean was faced with the choice to either let Sam die or have him live with an angel possessing him (which is something Dean knew Sam wouldnt want) Dean chose to override Sam's automony. Sam will now be faced with either letting Dean live as something he would hate, saving him or killing him if he cant. There in lies Sam's lesson. My guess is Sam will try to save Dean but he wont be successful for at least half the season, he may have to face the very real possibility that killing Dean is his only option because he knows Dean wouldnt want to be a demon. He will at some point decide to honour Dean's wishes and then there will be a real last minute save/miracle and Dean will be saved. Also if Sam wants to make sure Dean doesnt become the thing he loathes the most/his fear of being a killer, Sam will have to keep Dean by his side and be his moral compass. I think that way Sam and Dean stay together for the season (we know keeping them apart for more than an episode doesnt actually work), the writers can still have MOTW episodes, Crowley and Cas arent in every episode (which they wont be anyway) and Dean doesnt become something he wont be able to come back from.

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  110. I think that ship has sailed. They've dealt with that part of the storyline and moved on now. There wont be any Sam centric episodes next season and I dont think there will be a shift from the Dean POV.

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  111. Dean wants a life outside of hunting just like Sam but where Sam sometimes has hope he can have it Dean usually only sees despair. He clings to hunting because he doesnt think normal is acheievable for him. Arguably he also dissmisses Sam's hope for a life outside of hunting because he feels like he himself cant have it so he doesnt want Sam to have it either even though he sometimes says he does want that for Sam his actions and words when Sam does go after it suggest otherwise.

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  112. Yeah thats going to happen, I fully expect it will be a Dean mytharc and Dean POV season much like it was this season.

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  113. No, no, I agree with you. They both had plenty on their plates to deal with and to learn from (they keep doing it, at different speed, at different angles…) so I have never said Dean was the only one to learn or Sam was. That is not what this all about. I merely stressed that I would like Sam to walk in Dean’s shoes while Sam in Dean’s. We do not say words “big brother” or “little brother” just for nothing, just to state who was the first to born, right? They mean to a person more deeper approach I guess. Like the older the person the wiser he or she is. It doesn’t necessary mean true but it is how our society in general works and vice versa. It goes somewhat with trust and protection I think. Younger people look up to older ones in their belief of having an answer and making it better by a good advice. The same goes with Dean and Sam. While Sam has always had someone to put trust and hopes in we can’t say the same for Dean so that’s why he always thought of himself as Sammy’s protector only and nothing more, that he didn’t have much of a choice of being one. It is somewhat true because of his deep love for his brother in parts of not having a choice and bearing the responsibility for the younger sibling. Sam, on the other hand, has always been behind his older
    brother’s back and support that sometimes I feel he accepts it just due. I am
    not saying that he should go with “thank you that I have big brother” kinda
    thing all the time because such a connection is just is, and you can’t ask for a
    person to realize it rather than feel it, but Sam from my point of view doesn’t
    understand (and lately doesn’t try to) why Dean does what he does because he does not know what is like to be the oldest in their family or any other one alike and what it is like to HAVE that genetic level of need to look after someone of the same blood because he has never done or had a chance to because there is no younger brother or sister (alive at least). Dean does know that. I love those wonderful episodes of Dean, Sam and Adam interaction so much because we can see the range of Dean’s concern for Adam’s safety and wellbeing while Sam tasted just a fraction of that need to look after a younger sibling. My hopes as I said before for Sam to grow up in that regard and for Dean learn from his younger brother’s a bit similar experience in the past. Of course Dean’s demon nature will be quite tricky but… we’ll see how all will play itself out.

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  114. What makes you so sure he wants a life outside of hunting? What have we seen in the past? We have "The Kids Are Alright", where Dean looked on having a life outside the hunting lifestyle when he only had a year left to live(how convenient) and the time he tried to have a normal life, the truth was he knew he could never have one because he's a hunter("You Can't Handle The Truth"). Nothing suggests that Dean wants a normal life, or can even have one, and not as much as his brother, who, even if his time with Amelia did not work, he did have a life with Jess. The ONLY exception to how Dean is differed from Sam is "Bad Boys" but whatever happened in that time, it was pushed deep within Dean to the point that all he ever cares about is hunting as if he forgot about having a normal life and while he tried later on in his life with Lisa, it didn't work; even if Sam was dead, we know the truth from Dean, who didn't even mention Sam's name about how he views himself.

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  115. - Me, neither. 'Dean the good demon' as well as kickass 'good brother' should be confined to fanfics - I'm reading a few now and they're quite good, but should not be 'reality' even as defined by the show. Besides we've already had "Ruby the (fake) good demon. If the show made Dean not only a demon but one equipped with First Blade and the MoC to harness it I want to see full out Evil Dean even if only for half a season or so (sort like the Soulless Sam arc).

    - I want Sam to not only his full agency and intelligence restored, I want him to get sympathetic writing for the character and want him to network with other hunters to try to trap Demon Dean unharmed. (What I and many others wanted Sam to do in S8!) I don't want Sam being forced by the writers to have Cas as his sole contact and ally although I expect Sam to call or pray to Cas in the S10 premiere.

    - I agree. Just a big NO! If Cas gets a grace recharge he can resurrect 'cured' human Dean or something to that effect.

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  116. Yeah, Death told Sam and Dean the Leviathans prehistory. If I was (non Carver) Sam 'searching for Purgatory' would be a good place to start and he had a contact - the Alpha Vamp who could have helped if willing. But alas Carver's Mature!Sam wouldn't even make a deal with the AV to get Dean's remains 'home' much less alive and well.

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  117. While that would be a good place to start, I don't think Sam would even consider, imo. Leviathans have no soul, so by killing a monster that would still send them back to Purgatory would seem like an assumption that's kinda way out there, imo. He might have contacted the Alpha Vamp to see if Dean would have indeed be in Purgatory, and while that would be a nice thing to find out if we ever see the Alpha Vamp again, I just never thought that was a possibility.

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  118. It is mid season filler. I didn't mean to say they can't make it work, and I love Tim Omundson, so I want him and Cain back badly, It's just going to take some work to coordinate. Now they managed to coordinate Mark Sheppard this year even though he was Warehouse 13 AND White Collar, so it's certainly possible. I expect (hope) to see Cain again. He seems like an integral part of this whole storyline. Frankly, if Galivant doesn't work out, I'd love Cain to be a big bad, and used more than Abaddon.

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  119. Maybe get Michael to possess Dean can heal the MoC.
    Sam and Cas and all the angels somehow would free the Archangel from the cage then trick Demon Dean into saying yes. That would be a nice parallel to S9 and how Dean freed Sam from being possessed by Gadreel.
    Michael can go lead the angels and we're back to two HUMAN brothers fighting the good fight, doing the family business. My 2cents.

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  120. I wonder if Cas didn't kill Dean because he knew the Marc would turn him into a demon. Cas could have stabbed Dean then resurrect him later.

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  121. I have faith next season is about Sam doing whatever he can to get his brother human again AND staying human himself. Hopefully :)

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  122. I'm not sure that the Leviathans don't have 'something equivalent' to human (or "monster") soul or an Angel's grace - 'something' that can be separated from the whole entity and while removing 'it' changes the entity mostly for the worse, doesn't necessarily kill the entity immediately. Bobby and the boys killed a number of Leviathans in S7 and there were Leviathans in Purgatory in S8. Were the Leviathans Dean/Benny/Cas encountered in Purgatory the equivalent of Leviathan 'souls"? Or did 'Godstiel' just miss a good many 'resident' Leviathans when he was gulping down millions of 'monster souls' as well as an unknown number of Leviathans?

    Anyway, I don't know what Sera intended for Sam's initial storyline in S8; I never bought the S7 Companion Book and maybe it says something about it. (Maybe someone who bought the Companion or otherwise knows more about SG's 'cocktail napkin' plan for early S8 was and can 'spill' ;) ).

    But bringing back the AV might have been a possibility since the AV told the boys in 7.22 "See you next season" and I think a post season 7 Rick Worthy interview hinted that his character was going to fleshed out a little more than just in 7.22.

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  123. Yeah, I've been feeling gloomy about S10 (with respect to Sam's storyline), too. Like others when Dean acquired the MoC I expected a gradual shift to Sam's POV/POV looking at Dean through Sam's eyes and perspective but it never happened. From JiB5, Jared wants to 'save Dean' but as we've observed the POV switch never happened in S9. Who knows what Carver will do to Sam's character in S10 if he again centers a majority of the 'pov' on 'Dean/Cas/Crowley'?

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  124. I always felt that, Dick Roman was indeed sent to Purgatory, but not because his 'soul' was sent there, but because as the "Alpha" Leviathan, he was sent packing there as he's the only one that can reproduce Leviathans. Look at "Survival of the Fittest" where we see Dick Roman copies, and I felt that it was because Dick able able to create more Leviathans, then have them take the appearance of Dick Roman using that leftover arm they had in storage. Imo, SPN definitely walks the line with killing off villains that could always come back and even more so now that they've been to Purgatory where you can encounter souls of monsters that have died and I think the best possible way to still show Leviathans attacking Dean/Cas/Benny is the way we got without having to really explain if Dick Roman is there or not.


    I have no clue what Sera intended for Sam as well, but I did believe that Jared thought that the Leviathan storyline would continue into S8 as he mentioned that he hopes to see the Leviathans flesh out more into the following season, so who knows…maybe Dean and Cas being sent to Purgatory was only a last change when Sera decided to leave the show.


    And you are right, Worthy did mention about seeing more of the Alpha Vamp in S8 and that was, again, probably in the original idea for S8 with Sera still in charge. I believe the same article spoke of how Rick knows the true name of the Alpha Vamp, and it's some sort of royal name that will further explain what the Alphas have been up to all these centuries. I have been thinking about the whole "Sam trying to get the Alpha Vamp's help" with Dean, and I actually thought of an episode this coming season in using the Alpha Vamp…the whole idea is pretty much the Alpha Vamp trying to continue the vampire race with kidnapping children and turning them into vampires from an early age which gets the boys' attention and when they encounter the Alpha Vamp, that's when we find out that Sam tried to get the Alpha's help in figuring out where Dean was sent to(before he finally decided to stop hunting altogether), and that idea could work with another I thought of in that, a cure won't help Dean, but trying to bring back his humanity through "feels" could, and finding out that Sam did indeed tried to look for him could start to "break away" the demon persona within him. But, in the end, Demon!Dean needs to end up killing the Alpha Vamp just because it's a loose plot thread, and would be interesting to see a powered up Dean going after an Alpha.

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  125. Yep, I am so tired of most angels being depicted as arrogant dbags - it's nice to 'hear a change in the wind blowing' particularly if the Angel storyline ends sometime before the series ends.

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  126. Yes, I've read this before and also said it myself - picking up on what Hellboy said - 'cured' Dean is still a walking corpse, but at least he's in his body not possession some other person. And Jensen said Dean's really dead so I'm assuming the First Blade doesn't have 'full resurrection but as a demon in your own body' in its portfolio.

    So (if the show re-uses the 'cure a demon' ritual' and I'm they will) Dead, but 'Cured' Dean needs to be resurrected (beyond getting rid of the Mark). Actually I would prefer Crowley to do it for "free" 'just 'cause' he owes Dean (big time!) for killling Abaddon. This is just my fantasy though and Demon Dean might even be 'cured' by the ritual.

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  127. That's my preference, too; Crowley is too darn entertaining for me to take him seriously as one of the 'Big Boss' baddies. If not Cain or Crowley, I can see KOHDemonDean as one of this season's baddies only with Sam and Cas wanting to 'save' Dean rather than kill him.

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  128. Have you read anything about the episode order for Galivant? I read "Agent Carter" S1 is getting 8 as a bridge between two 'halves' of MAOS.

    Yeah, Mark was a very busy beaver 'last' year. That's another great reason to have him under contract and I do adore Crowley.

    Yes, first choice (on the demon side at least, who knows whether the show will also have 'bad angels' again) would be full bore evil Cain again.

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  129. Yes, Cain might need to be convinced to take the mark off Dean. I just can't imagine a logical scenario in which DemonKnightDean would want the Mark removed once he sees the full benefits of being an a super powerful, immortal demon. Someone - Sam, Cas or even Crowley might have to appeal to Cain's 'Colette' gained humanity to remove the Mark.

    If Cain can only make one or two appearances in S10, the 'trio' can agree to do an equivalent of Cain's throwing the FB in the deepest ocean so Cain needn't be re-exposed as long as the 'trio' can get the FB away from 'Dean' in the first place. This is just a spec - outside of Tim O's tweet that he might make an appearance in S10 I have no idea how any of the 'DemonDean' storyline will play out.

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  130. Unless they have as much personality as Zachariah and are developed, please, please no more angel bad guys. I just want the angels to GO AWAY.

    No idea on the order number for Galivant, I would guess 13 at max. That was the order for OUAT in Wonderland when it was planned as a midseason bridge for OUAT.

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  131. I so want Abel to appear, tell Cain that NO, he wasn't cutting a deal with Lucifer. Lucifer was telling him how Luci was going to get Cain to become a demon and his "pet" and Abel was saying "no way! My big brother is too good and too smart to give into you!" Then he and Sam can go and commiserate about big brothers that rush in to protect them when they don't need it and work on matching bitchfaces.

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  132. And I think that's what it's about, really. Carver is most likely going to be coming to an end with the angel storyline and the best way to have it is by making the angels have one goal which is what it once was before this Apocalypse talk. Imo, the angel storyline's ending during Kripke's run was fine because we're left to an optimistic time of Castiel rebuilding Heaven and now we're at the point again. The only major thing, really, is what the angels will think of with Castiel's human friend being a demon now.

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  133. I would vote for Demon!Dean for perhaps half the season, if not less, and Cain being the main baddie unless S10 brings in a newcomer. I highly doubt it will be Crowley, or maybe it's just me not wanting to see him as the villain again.

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  134. I'm sure he will make an appearance as Cain, but my gut just tells me Cain will be in S10 and not just for one episode. I think this is a way of getting Cain "back on the horse". Over a century not holding the First Blade and it may have an effect on Cain once even he lays his eyes on it, and furthermore, there will also be this sympathetic side to that because we know there is some humanity within Cain.

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  135. I'd rather they have done more with Naomi. I don't think the show has known what to do with angels for a very long time. I always end up seeing Zachariah as the death of the interesting angels, because he was, to me, an idiot (dumbest plans ever) and a thug who got way too much airtime.

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  136. I think Carver intends to wrap the bulk of the angel/Heaven up this S10.

    Most of the 'surviving angels' who want to are going 'home' through Metatron's portal but I guess the "Gates" are still shut. Human souls are still trapped in the Veil. I think one of the topics of S10 will be finding a way to reverse Metatron's spell, possibly restoring the angels' wings and opening up Heaven so the souls can get in. The S9 finale already started making progress (on the angel side) - with the most of the Angels realizing they had lost the primary mission set by "God" - watching over and protecting humanity.

    At some point in early S10 - likely in the premiere - Sam will probably discover Dean's body gone (just as he guessed - and I guessed - at JiB5) and he will contact Cas or Cas will come to earth to verify what Metatron said. He will have to make a choice - lead and rebuild Heaven or appoint someone else (possibly Hannah if she recurs in S10) while he joins Sam in the hunt for 'Dean'.

    I don't think either Sam or Cas will know conclusively that Dean is a demon in the premiere yet; Sam might just guess that Crowley resurrected Dean for his own purposes. Both Crowley and Sam saw how Magnus 'controlled' Dean with a spell - if I was Sam that's the horrible conclusion I would jump to after discovering Dean's body gone. Who knows what Carver will write though.

    If Cas chooses hunting for Dean over restoring Heaven, the other angels may break with Cas again. But I think in S10 the show has to restore Heaven at least to the point where human souls can get in.

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  137. Well Carver did say he created an ending for S10 that could work as an ending for the series, but he can also continue afterwards and I think that part will definitely be true for the angel storyline, as it just feels like it NEEDS to end without treading the same waters as before(although S9 had its similarities with S6 in the whole "angel war" aspect).


    I'd prefer to see Inias running Heaven just because I want to see him return again, lol, but yah, Hannah may indeed have a role in S10, but I also believe while Cas chooses to help Sam with Dean, Hannah may end up deciding that Dean needs to die because their mission is to protect humanity from evil; Dean is evil at a broader level without knowing the whole situation.

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  138. I'd prefer Cain to one of the BB's in S10 but he goes back to killing he would be unstoppable with the First Blade. So the boys and whoever joins them would have to divert Cain's attention long enough for 'Dean' to grab the Blade and kill him. Or the show would have to go the sappy, predictable route and have 'Dean' appeal to Cain's 'humanity', have Cain give 'Dean' the Blade, Dean kills Cain as he had asked and the MoC disappears from Dean's arm.

    The problem with Cain recurring as a "BB" is Galavant as Percy said - I don't know if it's started filming yet - but I do know is "S1" is intended to bridge the two halves of S4 QUAT. But Mark S managed to juggle multiple recurring roles 'last year' - maybe Tim O could do the same. Most BB's don't have more than 4-ish appearances a season.

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  139. I don't want DD for more than half a season - but DD may be around the full season or even longer! As a "BroBond' fan much of S9 was very difficult to watch and at least part of S10 has the potential to be even worse especially the writers have Sam be an unsympathetic character again. But I realize that DD has loads of potential to be mined.

    I don't like Castiel and if he is the only character who's tapped (by Sam) for the finding Dean mission I'll have fits - episodes with Sam and Cas teaming up typically have Cas doing more of the talking.

    Similarly 'BroBond' fans are NOT thrilled at the prospect for the brothers to mostly separated for episodes on end. In most of Sam's alt version (or recovering DB junkie) episodes the brothers were never separated for more than an episode.

    If I could have confidence that S10 Sam would get an equally compelling storyline and sympathetic POV - AND equal screen time - as the show will devote to DD - the separation would be less a problem and BroBond fans would welcome a 'good brother doing what it takes to rescue Dean' for Sam. But I don't have confidence.

    Some other BB could be pulled out in S10 I suppose, like mostly red herring Eve in S6. But I'm mostly going going with with the 'bad' characters that have been a fixture of or introduced in S9: Crowley, DD, Cain, Metatron - although how powerful can M be now that the Angel Tablet has been destroyed, assuming the "AT' was also the source of Metatron's scribe powers as well as his 'god-like' powers?

    I do a question - what about Abaddon's 'soul mining' to create an army obedient to her? Do 'we' think it's going to be a dropped plot point?

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  140. I agree! Kripke's era produced the only angels with any personality. Gadreel had potential until the show solely aligned him with Castiel. "Metagod" always reminded me of SPN's "American Gods-ish "depiction of all 'pagan gods' as having to literally 'feed on something produced by humans" to get any 'power' or 'life'.

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  141. That's why I think Cain could easily be a villain and Tim has to only make 4,5,6 appearances total. Cain could easily go off and just kill and the part of the season where Cain becomes a baddie is just Sam and Dean on the trail, but on a literal trail, with trying to find Cain and stop him. I also don't have a problem with the "predictable" route. While, yes, it could be shown as predictable, it could lead to many parallels to Sam and Dean's story of one having to talk down the other and vice versa as we've seen in the past.

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  142. I think Demon!Dean definitely has potential, but part of me sees this as a reflection of the Soulless Sam storyline in which Dean's problem might be fixed by the end of the first half of the season. Unlike the SS storyline, though, I think Crowley will end up showing Dean the ropes of being a demon here and there while Sam tries to show Demon!Dean humanity's side of things while Castiel is figuring out how to fix this dilemma. I'm sure, at least the first half of things, all four of the main characters will have a strong role to play.


    In regards to that whole subplot of Abaddon's plan…sadly, I think it will indeed be a dropped plot point. Not only was it's Abaddon's plan, which Crowley will be against from the jump, but it also undermines this regal style of how Crowley wants demons to make deals with humans as "Heaven Can't Wait" really showed how much Crowley cares about the "legal" aspect when making a deal with humans, then taking the souls back after ten years. Heck, even in "Season Seven, Time For A Wedding", Crowley showed his disgust over those Crossroad Demons that weren't doing it fairly. As much as it should be something for Sam and Dean to try and handle, it will probably be a dropped idea and the idea will be "Crowley probably let the humans have their souls" kind of thing.

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  143. I'm sure Hannah will be in charge, but I just wanted to see Inias for continuity reasons, haha, and especially as the only living angel in Castiel's old garrison now…it's a shame we haven't seen him since S7, but yah, I'm sure Hannah will kick Castiel out to the curb and that might play along with Cas deciding not to return to Heaven if something happens to the rest of his grace. The angel/Heaven storyline may end with the gates of Heaven being opened and Hannah being the new leader if, as you mentioned, SPN doesn't bring up God.


    I do remember Robert Singer mentioning that if God ever showed up, it would be a female, so is this their plan of bringing in an angelic leader who's a female if they don't show God at all?

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  144. If Tim O can fit a slightly recurring role in S10 I only see a problem with the logistics triangle of one First Blade and two individuals with MoC's. - does Demon Dean want to give up his power, or does he have to 'cured first' (and resurrected?) Will Cain come looking for 'Dean'? Will Sam (and Cas?) go looking for Cain to ask for his help? So many possibilities.

    And you're right about the predicable route - by now it's gotta to be part of the "Winchester Handbook" in the chapter on "What to do if your brother turns evil in 3 easy steps" . Talking to Cain would probably work.

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  145. I think Sam and Cas will come look for Cain. I don't think in such an early stage, Demon!Dean will even think about giving the Mark away because of the power he's getting, or who knows….maybe my idea of Sam wanting Demon!Dean to feel emotions will actually happen and the human side of Dean will try to get Sam and Cas to find Cain before the demonic side truly takes over?

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  146. Yeah... read that Singer comment, too, which would completetely 'retcon' Metatron in 8.22 (I think) describing 'God' to Castiel as male 'and a bit of chauvinist'. Since the 'real SPN' is on earth per Joshua in DSOTM, it's entirely possible that 'he' will choose a female vessel - but I wouldn't be keen on that idea - it's too much of a ripoff of the end of the movie, Dogma. Which makes you right, why make the Leader of Heaven a female angel and then make 'God's vessel' also female?

    I don't know what will happen to Cas when/if his stolen grace 'burns out' but Metatron didn't make it seem like Cas would just turn human but that he and his vessel would die. Since Misha is a regular in S10 I think the show has to find some way of restoring Cas's original grace (or just replenishing it somehow). I got the impression from the finale and 9.22 that it's a matter of time before 'his grace' burns out but it diminishes more quickly if he uses 'angel powers'.

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  147. Assuming Carver sticks to his '3 year plan' - wraps it mostly up, leaving hints that follow into S11, starting theoretical S11 with the hints carried forward but essentially starting almost with blank slate (as Sera G had to in S6) DemonDean will have to be restored to a living human by the end of S10.



    At JiB5 last weekend Jensen said Dean is really dead and in his M&G he apparently said to fans something like 'don't worry, the real Dean will be back' (obviously I'm just paraphrasing here from the M&G panel I read) and that he hopes the writers do a decent job with the storyline including the 'resolve'. He referred specifically to the Soulless!Sam and Gadreel!Sam arc lengths (SS - 11, GS 10). So I'm guessing Jensen's thinking 10/11 episodes max. From his perspective, he's also aware that the show can't overdo one of the brothers' being 'non human' for long because that messes with the foundation the show has been built on.


    However, both J's have expressed hopes openly at Cons and 'semi-privately' in M&Gs at these pre-season Cons that haven't been the way the show 'went' as the showrunner and the writers have each season specifically (first ~ 4/5 episodes) to very crudely (episodes 20-23) mapped out. So while Jensen may be envisioning "DD" to be wrapped up in 9-11 episodes that not be part of Carver's '3 year plan' (i.e., I doubt that the "DD arc wrap-up timing" comes from Carver telling Jensen 'the plan'),



    I kind of figured the 'soul army' part of Abaddon's might be dropped; Crowley would regard it as cheating but DD might take the attitude 'Who cares? I have a ready made army that I can en-spell to make loyal only to me. Bwa ha ha!' DD will be more powerful than Crowley. That's assuming DD remembers the soul-mining at all - he likely won't which gives the show an easy way to drop the plot point without complicating the storyline more with Crowley's 'integrity issues'; Crowley doesn't know about 'Abaddon's army.'

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  148. I wouldn't mind God taking a female vessel after he was so sexist in the past, as it would be God "modernizing" with the times and realize his own mistakes, as how the human race have realized their own mistakes about race, religion, orientation, etc. I think it would be pretty cool, but it would indeed seem like a rip-off so maybe they won't go there…with Hannah, a female, being in charged of Heaven, that may signify that we won't be seeing God at all. While it's an important plot that should be tied up, perhaps by the end of the series, we'll just see a working Heaven that doesn't need God….I mean, to fit with SPN as it is, Sam and Dean have been fine without their father.


    Yah, I think if he uses less of his powers, his grace will be intact but I do believe that maybe Cas can at least stay human even if his grace fades away. I was thinking that perhaps Cas will finally decide to look for his grace now that he's running out of options(something I felt he should've done during S9).

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  149. I think Jensen is pretty on point with how long the Demon!Dean storyline will be. Imo, I have a feeling that Carver is going to have a contrast with the Demon!Dean storyline that we had with Soulless Sam. Although, I do wonder what Carver will do at the end of this three year plan going into S11, unless he added more to his arc much like Kripke added two extra seasons after S3.


    Don't think Demon!Dean will go THAT far with being a demon that he'll want to use the army for his own pleasures. Imo, this needs to be a more personal dilemma and not try to use Demon!Dean as some demon leading an army, but this personal problem for Sam and Cas as well as a building "bromance" for Demon!Dean and Crowley; make it more intimate, I say.

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  150. I am not so sure Cass knew of the impact the mark was really doing on Dean. It was said that no one knew of Cain killing all those knights except Abadon and himself, even the angels were not aware, at least at this point of the story it seems; that everybody just thought that the archangels did. Also I am not sure the angels knew the whole story behind Cain's transformation. I think every person thoght that due to the deal his soul was dragged to hell on his suicide and later turned into a demon and the mark was considered just a mark as a confirmation of the contract signed, from Lucy himself. Crowley was not sure either, he called the story a mear speculation and theory unconfirmed. At the moment I think every character thought of the mark as a Lucifer touch - pure and great force out there to ever exist (besides God, Michael and Death), a great evil so far.

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  151. Tessa and Castiel both seemed worried to see the mark on Dean's arm. Metatron made a comment about Dean being out of his mind and having 'Lord knows what's pumping through his veins' but, you are right, this doesn't tell us what the angels really know about the effects of the mark. And we have to wait for the season premiere or beyond to know more. Whoever called it a Hellatus was spot on :)

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  152. Belive they were just worried of unknown and all that mistery that surrounded the mark. Even Metatron having the tablet at his disposal was not sure of how to take on the mark, I mean he seemed of being really worried of inevitable encounter with Dean at first. So many questions! :) Hellatus!))) Very true! Especially this time around!

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