I am not a big fan of standalone episodes. I watch TV shows to follow a character's journey, or a bunch of characters’ journeys. One-off stories are not my thing. They are too short and mostly predictable. They tend to focus on side characters toward whom I feel no emotional attachment. That is one reason I didn’t like season one. It’s also why I don’t watch procedurals.
I went into this episode expecting to feel bored. This season didn’t have a stellar record of Monster of the Week episodes and I had no reason to think this episode would be different. I was also mad at Carver for putting a Monster episode at this point in the season. So close to the finish line the show should be firing on all cylinders toward the conclusion of the mythology and the tying of all its loose ends. Are we so on track with the main story arc that we could afford a side adventure?
But I got a surprise. I liked the episode, better than the last one. I blame it on a combination of the episode’s story not being too bad (although still quite predictable) and the current mythology not being that good. When the main story fails to impress, while the side story shines, that says something about the show.
While thinking about why this episode’s plot was good I came across a revelation about a major problem with the show. Alex Annie Alexis Ann was a good episode because it depicted an Inner Journey, something that used to make the show great before season 7.
Let’s do an observational recap: Seasons 1-5 were dedicated to Sam and Dean’s inner journeys. Mostly Sam’s as he navigated his way from carefree college student, through loss of loved ones, gain of power, lust and addiction, to finally becoming the hero that saved the world. Dean was along for the ride, but not left out. His inner journey involved coming out from under his father’s shadow and accepting choice and free will.
Season 6 was Castiel’s inner journey, but it wasn’t in hands as skillful and caring as Kripke’s and got mishandled and dropped before it could reach its end. After that the characters just existed, going in and out of stories with no personal arc to speak of. Things affected them on a surface level, but deep down, there was nothing.
Alex Annie Alexis Ann was the first episode this season that managed to show the inner journey of a character. Granted it wasn’t one of the main characters but Sheriff Jody Mills, and it came at the cost of a very questionable and unfortunate implication about the brothers, which will be discussed in Gripe #1. Still it was refreshing to see an episode finishing the personal growth arc of a character instead of telling just a random story, something the show denied long standing favorites such as Gabriel, Kevin, Meg, Crowley and even Castiel. One could argue that post season 5 Sam and Dean suffered the same.
Jody learned something in this episode. It made her a better person. I wished we could have the same good thing for our three main boys, instead of watching them hop from plot to plot, gain and lose purpose like bees covered in pollen that never fertilizes anything.
Gripe #1: No, you were wrong about the girl
As I said, Jody’s character growth came at the expense of a rather problematic suggestion about the brothers. I still don’t know what to make of it.
Here is the issue: When Alex’s abusive vampire brother suggests she liked luring victims, we are treated to a very disturbing flashback. A young version of Alex is ogled by a dirty old man. The old man then takes her to a house but before he could lay his hands on her he gets jumped by her “brothers.” All of this is accompanied by the vampire’s narration about how she is no better than the rest of them because she enjoyed doing what she did, even though none of that joy shows on her face.
It's absurd to suggest that an underage girl would enjoy an experience that made my skin crawl even watching it. Not even the payback she got afterwards was worth what she had to go through. The only reason I could imagine for her to go along with that plan was to impress her brothers because she was conditioned to do so.
I remember reading Jaycee Dugard’s memoir, the horrible things done to her, and how deeply she was brainwashed into wanting to please her abductors. She never thought of a life different from what they forced her into. If they wanted her to lure victims to their lair like these vampires did, I’m sure she would have done it. That wouldn’t have changed the fact though that she was an innocent victim.
Alex is no different, and that’s the sad thing about this story. When Sam and Dean hear what she has done, a story that might very well be a lie considering the source, their whole stance towards her changes. They go back to Jody and tell her Alex is an accomplice, and that she's worse than some of the monsters they've killed.
The only reason I’m not making a bigger deal about this is because of that last scene, in which Sam and Dean apologized to Jody for judging Alex. Regrettably she tells them they were right, that it was she who had issues and turned Alex into a symbol. The reason she is saying this – the same reason the writer added this piece of dialogue to the conversation – is to show her character growth. To display what she learned from this experience, because this is her episode.
But what about the brothers? Does that mean they were right after all? That the victim was truly as bad as her kidnappers and deserved to be treated like them? I hope that’s not true because if it is then we'll hit yet another moral low this season and God knows we already had enough of them.
Gripe #2 – Guest starring: The Winchesters
As I said, this was Jody’s episode. Sam and Dean were mostly there for support, except for that last bit of foreshadowing about the mark and what’s hopefully going to be a climax soon.
Whilst this is fine, and has been done before, it's missing an important element. When good shows diverge from their main stars to tell the story of another character it usually has some reflection in the main character’s life or personality arc. In season 4 for example, the episode Family Remains reminded Dean of his own beastly existence in hell, while season 2’s Simon Said paralleled Andy’s story with Sam’s.
I couldn’t find a parallel between Jody’s story and the current affairs of Sam and Dean. I’ve read the reviews about Alex’s situation being similar to Sam’s feelings about family in season one. That however is not current. I doubt Sam feels “trapped” by Dean now. Smothered maybe, lied to, yes. But trapped and helpless like Alex, no way.
Gripe #3 – Too much information
I hate spoon feeding. It’s always better when shows play it subtle and let the viewer make the connection than stating it straight up. This story was about Jody getting over her dead family. We could’ve gotten that without her final monologue to Sam and Dean. That was unnecessary exposition that potentially ruined the sweet taste of discovery in the smart viewer’s mouth. A better way of handling it would have been through a symbolic gesture, like Jody taking the pictures of her son and husband out of her wallet and leaving them somewhere. Sometimes I feel like this show has too much dialogue and not enough imagery.
I’d go as far as to say the revelation that the vampire mother too had a dead child, one she replaced with Alex, was redundant too. I would have left it up to the viewer to guess why she changed Annie’s name. Maybe she was ashamed of her theft after all. Maybe this was the name of her dead child. Or maybe, like in Jaycee’s case, she wanted to erase her past. It could have been a combination of all three, or none at all.
Sometimes saying less has the power to enrich a story by giving it more dimension and weight.
Mini Gripes:
1. Bad dialogue
“Sweet Ann, you got any idea what I’m going to do to you?”
Does anyone talk like that, even a lecherous child molester who thinks he’s going to get lucky? He deserved what he got if only for that line.
How about this line from Sam:
Dean - “You think they went back to the nest?”
Sam - “Of course they did, why wouldn’t they?”
A simple “yes” would have done the job. The way poor Jared quickly mumbled the line showed how even he felt its wordiness.
2. Return of Samuelope Pitstop
No episode would be complete without either Sam or Castiel tied to a chair. In Sam’s case some slow torture that would make him feel woozy in the end is usually in order. Or an agonizing procedure that would make him scrunch up his face and groan. Cas on the other hand always gets the boring Angel Blade bloodletting treatment.
3. “Yeah, I know, you wouldn’t have done the same for me.”
Was that really necessary? I know the writers like to remind us the brothers are at odds, but Dean saying that while Sam is feeling out of sorts due to blood loss is bad. Fans were debating Sam’s lack of denial after the episode was over, some worried because he didn’t even balk at the suggestion, while others cited his obviously condition.
Usually when such lines are uttered it is to make a point about a character, either the one uttering it or the one listening. A strong point would have been made here if Sam, despite his condition, mustered the strength to correct Dean by denying his assumption. That would have meant that Sam cared so much about Dean that the words penetrated the fog in his mind and resulted in a kneejerk reaction.
What we got on the other hand had no purpose. If Sam was too far gone to understand what Dean said then bringing it up in that situation was petty of Dean. If he wasn’t too far gone then not having a conditioned reaction to deny the accusation made Sam look bad. We would wonder if Sam truly wouldn’t do the same for Dean or that he was worried for Jody and had no time for a response.
Regardless, the only thing that came out of that line was more tension.
As always, you thoughts, suggestions and debates are welcom in the comments.
Tessa
tessa-marlene.tumblr.com/
twitter.com/tessa_marlene
Note: In last week’s review I posted quotes from both the IMDB forum and spn-gossip. As I said in the comments, my intention was to show how two vastly different message boards had similar reactions towards the episode. By no means did I mean to compare these two.
IMDB might be Dean centric, but nearly all discussions there are of a respectful and intelligent nature. Barely any insults toward groups of fans, actors, the actors’ families, or posters on the forum could be found. It’s a respectable and safe environment.
The same could not be said about spn-gossip. I only go there to read episode discussions, to cover the full spectrum of the fandom. The rest of the place isn't a good place, for me or anyone who isn’t comfortable with the nature of discussions there, or the type of language used. This is as polite as I could get describing my feelings about that forum. It is not in the same ballpark as IMDB, or Tumblr, or any other place where fans gather to discuss the show. I just thought I'd make that clear for those unfamiliar with these forums.
Thank you for the reply. I always enjoy reading your insightful comments.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the note about IMDB and the other site. I was the one who brought that up and as with last week I apologize for misunderstanding what you were saying.
No apology necessary. I just read over the review and comments from last week and realized there was a lot said about IMDB (which makes sense since more people visit that board) while nothing about the other forum. Thought I correct that. I don't have much respect for spn-gossip after all and didn't want to seem like I was endorsing it.
Most of the time the kids are brainwashed and conditioned into complicity.
I just thought Berens went overboard in showing just how much Sam and Dean mistrusted Alex. They kept going on about how she was no better than any monster. And based on what? The words of a monster who had oppressed her? The boys aren't dumb. They should know almost 90% on oppressors think their captive enjoys what is being done to them.
And what about Dean telling Jody cleaning the nest was priority #1 while Alex came second? When did "Saving people, hunting things," turn into "hunting things, then maybe, possibly, saving people?"
I think that Alex was quite similar to Dean in that Dean was conditioned into a life of servitude and a belief that he was worthless beyond that servitude.
But does that apply to current Dean? Is he still living a life of servitude?
I guess one could argue, considering how much he served Sam during the trials. But then, wouldn't that make Sam an abusive vampire brother?
No matter which angle I look at this from, it doesn't work for the current season.
My problem with Dean's inner journey in that season was that I felt like the entire season was devoted to telling Dean he had no real choice.
I agree with your observation re Dean's journey in season 5. My biggest problem with it was that it was quite abruptly dropped at episode 100 because they didn't have enough episodes left to finish Sam's. The girlfriend/child thing was their cop out way to cover the kick to the curb.
It was still better than what Castiel got in season 7: a lung full of murky water.
I do wish Sam had denied it,
One incredulous look would have been enough. Yes, Dean is in a bad place and Sam's words about not doing the same thing for him are front and center on his mind. But Sam is the one who complicates this scene, and creates unnecessary tension. Unless they are going somewhere with this (and it better be a good story) I don't get the insistent reminders.
I actually think Dean has had a strong and moving journey this season - one of continuous decay, rotting away on multiple levels
There's still potential for Dean's story to blow our minds, if they do it right. But I can't help to be skeptic. This is exactly how I felt about Castiel at the end of season 6 and we all saw how all that build up and character flaying went nowhere. I'm worried they're going to once again drop it at the last minute in favor of something new they pull out of their shiny black magician's hat.
I agree re the exposition and inclination to spoon feed. One of the biggest problems with TV
ReplyDeleteseries today is the lack of subtlety. We’re not dumb; we don’t always need conclusions supplied by the writing team.
Glad you liked the episode. I did too. But the finale is fast approaching and there's so much story left. Maybe the plan is to roll everything on over to season 10? Because they’re running out of time to do justice to the plethora of dilemmas.
Yes, that's my problem with the line too.
ReplyDeleteNot selling your soul, dying, or lying to everyone to bring back your dead brother is one thing. Not helping him when he's tied to a chair bleeding to death is another. What are we supposed to think when Sam didn't even look stunned at the accusation? That he agreed? That he was too far gone? He remembered Jody so he couldn't have been that woozy? So what? Did he not hear what Dean said?
Writers sometimes get too excited to drop hints and implicate something about a character (in this case Dean) yet they forget to do damage control to avoid opening a can of worms regarding the other characters in the scene (in this case Sam.)
I agree that TV goes overboard in using dialogue to tell stories. One argument I read in a writing book was that each TV show episode is only 45 minutes long and hence the writers dodn't have time to tell everything through showing.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand there are shows like Breaking Bad and Hannibal that do just that. I'm fascinated by how much these shows use imagery instead of dialogue and leave it to the viewer to decode what it means. You don't even need to be a college professor to understand the hints. The creators make sure to leave enough hints and implications so that the average viewer would "get it."
That's good TV. That's why these people are in charge of making these shows. If Carver and his writers can't do the same then why are they in charge of CW's most popular show?
Gripe 1 - I don't think the Winchesters were privy to the flashback scene so I can understand why they'd find it worse. Humans doing monstrous acts is worse than monsters doing what they can't help doing. We saw that with Jeffrey (?) who wanted to be possessed.
ReplyDeleteGripe 2 - I saw plenty of parallels between Jody and Sam & Dean ie grieving never stops but they have to move on from it, something both Winchesters need to learn. I also saw loads of parallels between Sam and Annie / Alec (and later Dean and Annie / Alec) and Dean and the family. Some of the lines spoken by the characters were identical. I think Sam does, to a cerain extent feel trapped. Not just by obligation but also by Dean. The guy has dictated that he has the right to decide when Sam lives or dies, FFS!
Gripe 3 - I liked the reveal about the mother vampire. It's almost a metaphor to Sam and Dean. Sammy really is no more. He's now Sam. He's the same guy but not really the same guy.
Re Deans line at the end. I think to a cerain extent he was trying to pick a fight. It also shows how twisted Deans mind is becoming, that he thinks that Sam won't do for him what he (Sam) has been doing for years.
Silly computer!
ReplyDeleteI think it's also setting up Deans headspace to be like Cain, who had to have been a tad messed up in the head to be able to justify what he did to his brother. (Too bad we'll probably never hear Abels side of the story.). Cain's self righteousness and self justification in that regard is close to Deans at the moment, especially in regard to Sam.
Opinions might vary but I'm afraid I wholly disagree with you about IMDB. Unless you're of the opinion that Sam is worth less than Deans toilet paper (and are vocal about it), then you're going to have a torrid time on that site. Positive discussion of Sam is quickly stomped upon as well as any discussion of Dean unless it's entirely positive (and/or puts the blame for Deans actions on Sam).
Hi Tessa, I enjoy reading your review and often agree with at least some of what you're saying. Had to respond to this part though:
ReplyDelete"I couldn’t find a parallel between Jody’s story and the current affairs of Sam and Dean. I’ve read the reviews about Alex’s situation being similar to Sam’s feelings about family in season one. That however is not current. I doubt Sam feels “trapped” by Dean now. Smothered maybe, lied to, yes. But trapped and helpless like Alex, no way."
It's current now because Sam was in a sense held captive throughout the first half of the season. That's what possession is, and the cause was Dean's refusal to let Sam go. I think it's important to put some context to why Sam is reacting to the possession the way he is, and I think that's what this episode attempted. I don't think Sam literally feels physically trapped like he did when he was 13 years old, but guilt is a different story. Does Dean use guilt to manipulate Sam? Look at Gripe #3. And in the end it was guilt that caused Alex to agree to be turned to a vamp. She told Jody should couldn't bear to disappoint her mother again.
Why are we getting Sam's issues with feeling trapped (which feeds into the control issues that were a big factor in season 4)? Why are still getting Dean's season 1 issues of low self-esteem and his fear of being alone? I think the writers are saying that these traits and emotional reactions are part of the characters' emotional DNA. I have mixed feelings about the writers' choice of this path for Sam and Dean. I'd prefer something that felt more forward moving rather than regressive, but it's not my story to tell.
I'm glad you brought up the implications of Sam and Dean unfairly judging Alex, but in fairness, they didn't see the flashback that we did, and they've had little chance to get to know Alex. They just heard that she had a dark side and were reacting cautiously.
I don't think the Winchesters were privy to the flashback scene so I can understand why they'd find it worse.
ReplyDeleteBut the source was a vampire who had kidnapped and possibly abused the girl. For them to so wholly swallow his story was out of character. It smelled too much of the writer doing it so it would serve Jody's story.
I think Sam does, to a cerain extent feel trapped. Not just by obligation but also by Dean. The guy has dictated that he has the right to decide when Sam lives or dies, FFS!
I disagree. It's too much of a stretch to say a brother that fights to keep his brother alive (by questionable means for sure, but the intent is the same, and out of pure love) is the same as a brother who sets his sister up as bait for slimy pedophiles.
Sammy really is no more. He's now Sam. He's the same guy but not really the same guy.
Interesting observation. Of course, we already knew the mother vampire changed Annie's name. What I meant was that we didn't really need to be spoon fed why she did it.
Re Deans line at the end. I think to a cerain extent he was trying to pick a fight. It also shows how twisted Deans mind is becoming, that he thinks that Sam won't do for him what he (Sam) has been doing for years.
That's why I think it was so important to get a reaction from Sam. Even a "Are you kidding me?" look would have done it, to confirm this is MoC Dean thinking and not how Sam feels.
I respectfully disagree about Sam. One could argue the possession, but that was due to Dean's mistake, not evil intent. He regretted it almost immediately after he saw what it did to Sam, something you can't say about the vampire mother and definitely not the brothers. In a sense he was as trapped by Gadreel as Sam was considering the angel dangled Sam's life over his head.
ReplyDeleteAs far as Sam's situation now goes, I don't see him trapped. He can leave any time he wants. If Sam truly does feel trapped by Dean then I'm confused why he isn't leaving him even for a short time, at the very least to clear his mind and have a break.
in fairness, they didn't see the flashback that we did, and they've had little chance to get to know Alex. They just heard that she had a dark side and were reacting cautiously.
True, but the source of that info was a vampire batting for his own team. Of course he would say she enjoyed it. That's the mindset of all abusers. My problem was the absoluteness of Sam and Dean's conviction about her guilt. The writer could have mixed in some doubt, to give the boys credit for all the experience they had under their belts.
Of course "mama" would also say she was trying to protect Alex and had only done what was best for her.
ReplyDeleteI think in a way an argument could be made that it Annie/Alex was a parallel for both boys.
ReplyDeleteThe more obvious Sam, by being trapped in a life she didn't want and not wanting to disappoint anyone and Dean being used as a lure to hold others in that life, feeling that there was no other life and the shame of it.
Yes Sam was held captive the first half of the season, but he said yes to Dean. Gadreel was only able to possess Sam because he used Dean just like those men got to become a snack because they were lured by Annie.
Was Dean or Annie a willing participate in it or just making the best out of a bad situation that lead them to feel shame regret and wish they could take back but did it to protect their family because both the men she lured and Sam could have said no to the lure put infront of them.
As for Sam, yes you have the parallels, the not wanting to share the same life as the family you have, being the black sheep, but if you scratch the surface you also have the consequences of Annie running away from her family shoved in her face which would also parallel Sam. Just like Sam running away from his in a non adult way would have caused. I'm not saying that the vampires dying was a bad thing, but there is the reminder that the struggle for independence just doesn't affect the person becoming independent but the others in the family around them too.
The main difference for me with Dean and Cas is I felt like they didn't do Cas' story until the end of the season, whereas with Dean I feel like it's been building up from early this season. For instance, Abaddon's behavior with Dean (which is where he's starting to go now). Or Dean, fascinated, watching the dogs rip that chef guy apart - sort of a hint of where he was going psychologically. But I know they could drop this or it could be nothing.
ReplyDeleteAnd what about Dean telling Jody cleaning the nest was priority #1 while Alex came second? When did "Saving people, hunting things," turn into "hunting things, then maybe, possibly, saving people?"
I think Dean wants to save people, but as he's no longer able to save himself, he's blocked more and more of that part of it out and is just focused on the killing.
I also think that is part of the servitude - he's in servitude to the vicious cycle that he has no role beyond protecting or killing; that even now, he would give up his life for Sam when he knows Sam wouldn't do the same for him (or so he thinks, anyway). He's not cowed by his father now, but still by those patterns.
I don't even think it was a Jodie episode, to me it was an Annie episode featuring Jodie.
ReplyDeleteI think Dean regretted that he felt he had to do it to keep Sam with him, but he lied to Sam about it for months, preventing Sam from expelling the angel, and I'm pretty certain Dean said he would do it again in that infamous conversation, before Sam said he wouldn't do it to Dean.
ReplyDeleteAs for why Sam doesn't leave, that probably goes back to the codependence and the role guilt plays in it. He's angry at Dean, but he does still care about Dean, worry about him, and he noticed the Mark of Cain.
Respectfully disagree about Sam and Dean being resolute about her guilt. I think they were trying to realistically set Jody's expectations. They were cynically assuming the worst, but I think they would have evaluated the Alex situation after they dealt with the vamps.
Well she did have an awakening so I credited the episode to her. :)
ReplyDeleteI personally like the line "Yeah, I know, you wouldn't have done the same for me." In my opinion it shows the progress that Dean made: From the lost and kicked puppy, who wanted to save Sams ass and now wants to be understood and Sams love, to "well, I know you don't appriciate what I've done for you and I sure as hell know that you wouldn't do the same for me."
ReplyDeleteIt also presents the effects of the mark: As Jensen in one interview said, Dean is becoming more and more emotionless and works more or less like a machine. He doesn't give a crap about emotions anymore and that development as an effect of the mark is pretty good shown in Deans line.
In my opinion it shows the progress that Dean made
ReplyDeleteRespectfully disagree. I think it shows the opposite, that he has made no progress at all and is still stuck in his doing-everything-for-Sam circle even if Sam wouldn't do the same for him. That's not progress, it's toxic thinking. I would take it more as the mark messing with his head and amplifying his hurt feelings.
I couldn't agree more w/you about IMDb. I also feel it is fine to insult Jared there. From his Twitter posts to his acting - he's always getting insulted in some way on that board.
ReplyDeleteAnd what do you think Sam would like ,what do you think he wants from Dean? Dean has never really been a kicked puppy nobody least of all Sam ever made him do anything. And Sam did not make him violate him to keep him alive. Dean is not the innocent party in this and MOC or not he has a way of coming out with spiteful remarks , he created the situation and he is reacting like he always does and he is not progressing .
ReplyDeleteI agree with everything you said. I think this season is going to finish with Dean becoming a Knight of Hell and/or joining up Crowley or Abaddon. I can't shake this off since that spoiler coming from Carver about uneasy alliances and shocking consequences. Which makes me think: if Dean becomes so dark they have to give Sam a POV, because Dean is not going to be a reliable source anymore. But somehow they are going to keep Dean's POV as the focus.
ReplyDeleteI do disagree with you re how Sam and Dean perceived Alex/Annie after coming back from Nebraska.
ReplyDeleteThey said the nest was priority #1. They said she could be dangerous.
But nobody charged at her with a machete. Nobody threatened to kill her. They told Jodi that her vampire brother gave them a slightly different take on her story and that she could be dangerous.
To me, the fact that she ran away meant she didn't want to LURE people to their deaths anymore. And Jodi already knew that she viewed the vampire who came to her in jail as her brother. The kid was conflicted. PERIOD. They were all going to have to deal with that.
Yeah, Sam had lost TWO buckets of blood. He was barely conscious. He actually showed no response to Dean, just sort of watched him kill Connor the vampire. He remembered the words. He just said "Jodi" meaning Jodi could be facing down more vamp(s) and Alex/Annie.
I don't think SHOW has been written that Sam has had to save Dean since The Purge speech by Sam. Am I remembering it wrong?
Why didn't Dean have any bruises after he got hit in the face by Vampire Brother #3 with a 2x4? JODI was done up in living technicolor. But Dean just had his usual pretty pretty face. Did you see something I didn't in the 3-way in the snow at the end?
He is really bad, isn't he? I know people complained about Sera, but I enjoyed S6. S7 was awful to me, but it was better than S8 or S9, IMO. But I was a huge fan of Soulless!Sam and that entire arc. I thought the start of S6 was great. Sera had a lot of good ideas, but they just weren't properly explored like the Campbells, the MOA, and the monsters building armies thing. I would take any and all of those plots over the angels falling or even the Crowley/Abbadon conflict that is apparently happening off-screen along w/everything else this year. Haha!
ReplyDeleteI'm not enjoying anything about Carver's run. Last year, there were only three episodes I honestly enjoyed: ATGB, EHH, and the one about Prometheus. This year, there are two: the one where Sam kicked Gadreel out of his body and the premiere was good. I don't even remember the names of the episodes like I used to. It's so ridiculous.
I'm very disenchanted w/Carver and his team. I'm not liking much of what they are producing.It's been a long time since I could say I loved an episode. Lately, I feel very "blah" and "meh" about all the episodes or I downright hate them like Bad Boys or Metafiction.
Your second gripe is a very major gripe for me too! I am beyond sick of the Winchesters guest starring in their own freakin' show. I can't enjoy the secondary characters like I normally would b/c I know they will undoubtedly overshadow the boys. I like Jodi, but I don't want to see an episode about Jodi and her grief. Id rather see an episode w/Sam researching the MOC or an episode solely focused on the Dean & the MOC. I'm glad you enjoyed the episode though. I don't expect to like any episodes at this point. I want to see how the season ends. I've been watching since this show premiered, and, unlike other shows, I had a particular love for Supernatural so it's been harder to just outright drop. It's the only current show where I owned (or used to own every season. I didn't get S8 and will not get S9. Depending on how this seasons ends, I may just give it up. There are so few episodes I like this year and they continue to mess w/the one constant on the show - the Sam/Dean relationship - so there is little reason for me to watch. I guess I've just wanted to see how the Winchester story ends.
Like you, I'm not very interested in seeing Dean become evil or the big bad for next year. There's only so far they can go w/that, IMO. I guess we'll see what happens.
Carver doesn't seem to have a big picture in mind like Kripke did, and he doesn't seem to pay as close attn to the end product as Kripke did. He just lets his writers write whatever they want, and that's why a lot - not all of course - but a lot of people who have watched since the premiere are no longer watching or are as disillusioned as me. I used to regularly post on the forums of Supernatural.tv but the place is a ghost town nowadays. Even the moderators who usually like everything aren't posting much about the show.
I feel like I'm rambling, so I'll just say I agree w/you. I look forward to your end of the year review :-)
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to tell Dean's story in Sam's POV. That simply ain't gonna happen. I've given up on getting Sam's POV. The writers don't care what Sam thinks about anything unless they want to use him to make Dean feel like dirt . . . then Sam can't shut up. It's so ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Dean may become evil at the end of the season, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. If he does, I'm sure it will be resolved in the first episode of S10. The showrunner has no vision, and the writers can't tell a story! Carver will run into the same problem Kripke did, and will not have Dean doing anything truly awful.
Your rambles are always welcome here. This is indeed the place for disillusioned fans to ramble and not get harassed or scolded by happy fans.
ReplyDeleteI'm a disillusioned fan too. When I was charged to review the show I thought, 'There's no way I could objectively analyse these stories. Unless I ignore my real feelings about the current state of the show all of my reviews will sound like gripes.' Then the idea came to me and I decided to go ahead with it. To say what was really on my mind and call it the Gripe Review and set the record straight. This way people knew what they were getting when they read the review and no one would accuse me of being a negative Nancy.
Wow, I'm actually surprised...(no hate is meant by this comment and I hope I get none in return), Bad Boys was one of my favorite episodes this season...I thought the kid who played younger Dean was fantastic and the scene at the end where young Dean chose Sam over his life at the home still brings me to tears, I thought it showed how deep he cared for him and how long Dean had always put Sam over everything including himself. Can you imagine if John would have left Dean there, how Sam would've grown up without Dean? And it was because of that devotion that he let "then Ezekiel" take over Sam's body so he wouldn't lose him. I don't know, I'm on the fence about Carver's story arcs. I kinda like the angel and demon stuff but I wish there was less of that and more just fighting monsters (like Bloodlines kinda looks like it'll be). BUT I ABSOLUTELY HATE HOW HE WROTE SAM'S CHARACTER! I agree with you how Carver doesn't seem to keep the big picture in mind like Kripke did/does (whatever say he has anymore in the show). The first seasons, the brothers relationship was either "we both go down or no one goes down" or "i would/will die for you" whereas that effing line about "I wouldn't do the same"...BULLS**T! I hope that freaking gets resolved soon! And I want to know more about that Mark of Cain...everyone seems to know about it in the show while the fans are kinda left in the dark. Yes, Dean's getting darker and more bloodthirsty, but it seems like there's supposed to be more to it considering Cas's reaction when he saw it...anyway...sorry about the mini rant as a response to your post...I hope that show has more amazing storylines ahead and will eventually go out with a bang with an ending that will satisfy the cast and crew but most importantly the fans (unlike HIMYM) :D
ReplyDeleteI think it's fan service: reminding us all of the brother-rift in case somebody missed an episode. It WAS sucky it was there. Sam was mostly incoherent. I LOVED how out of it he looked (that looked like ACTING rather than make-up) and that he nearly collapsed again when Dean helped him down the basement stairs. He was a mess.
ReplyDeleteCarver has a plan, you just don't like it. Fact is the Castiel/angel stuff ran it's course, and I think they realized that which is why it has been going on in the background rather than the focus. The fact is the season has always been about consequences and the destruction and rebuilding of Sam and Dean's relationship, you may not like that it's in a more slow burn approach, but it's been an element throughout the whole season.
ReplyDeleteSam has never really had much of a POV to begin with, mostly because the character is the more introverted of the two. And the fact is Sam and Dean are both pretty passive aggressive and hold grudges, so the fact that their reconciliation for something as big as what happen in the premiere is so slow is within character.
As for the lack of Abaddon or Metatron/Gadreel. The big bads have always made sparse appearances. Crowley in season 8 being the biggest exception.
Azazel - 6 episodes over 2 seasons.
Lilith - 4 episodes over 2 seasons
Lucifer - 6 episodes out of 22.
Dick Roman - 6 episodes out of 23
(2) Pacing - I hope you will do a gripe review of the entire season when it is complete b/c I feel the pacing for this season has been awful, esp. in this 2nd half of the season. We've had, IMO, several waste of time, filler episodes - many of which I can barely remember b/c nothing significant happened in any of them. Everything is dragging or seemingly on hold until the end of the season. This MOC story is moving, IMO, at a glacial pace. I can only assume it's carrying over to next year b/c nothing is happening. I like Jodi. I always have, but at this late date in the season, I'm not interested in more filler or episodes that focus on guest/secondary characters. I want more about the main arc/story of the season.
ReplyDeleteTo me this has little to do with the pacing for this season and is about the pacing for the show for many years now. To me every season from season 5 on has had this type of pacing. Compared to some stories over the years, I actually think the mark of Cain story has been relatively brisk - Dean just got it in episode 11, and there's been a slow and steady physical and mental decay from that point on. I'd say he's already changed quite a bit, only 8 episodes later.
(3) The MOC story - What is happening w/Dean and the Mark? Is he in a bloodlust? Is he desiring to kill any and everyone he sees? Is he consumed w/anger? Rage? Depression? Hate? I don't know. The show has not "told" us anything. Am I supposed to glean what Dean's feeling by the times he has looked at himself in the mirror, gotten drunk, or killed a vamp? Am I supposed to be worried about Dean right now? I know some others like myself thought Dean killing that vamp was just Dean killing a vamp. We've seen Dean enjoy killing before so what makes this so different?
It's not different. That's what makes this so frightening to me. This is the Dean we have seen at his lowest points, the Dean who pulls himself back together. With the mark, Dean can't, and won't, pull himself back together.
The show is kind of screwed both ways, because if they did tell us things about the mark, then they would be criticized for heavy-handed writing.
I think Dean has generally just become increasingly dead in his reactions, in how he focuses, in his coldness. He's also becoming stronger and stronger physically.
As I said in the review I went into this episode expecting to hate it. I'm with you that a filler this late is a bad move, but that's what we're getting because that's Carver's show running for you. Also the MoC story is really not jiving with me. Some fans are excited about it because Dean finally got a story of his own. But to me - even though I wanted a story for Dean for the longest time too - it was both too little too late and something that happened randomly. It doesn't resonate with his character's internal struggle at all .
ReplyDeleteWhen Sam became a demon blood addict in seasons 4 & 5 we already knew he was marked by hell through blood. We had seen him show greed for power. It was part of his character to go to the dark side. Dean on the other hand was touched by an angel so to say. His path seemed that of the righteous man. Even their poster showed Dean with a halo and Sam with a snake. To me Hell was always Sam's sandbox while Heaven was Dean's.
But Dean was never about Heaven. There was no "righteous man." It was a lie used by angels who wanted to manipulate him and start the apocalypse. The "touched by an angel" was more manipulation, which Cas eventually realized. He chose humanity, instead of Dean choosing Heaven.
The story was about Sam being lured toward Hell, but Dean always had a huge connection to Hell. He was the one who went to Hell first. He tortured in Hell. One of the most striking scenes in the history of the show was Dean seeing his demon self, taunting him, shaming him. Ditto for Alastair tormenting Dean in On the Head of a Pin.
I'd say this story fits with everything we've seen of Dean since season 1. His lack of self-worth. His abusive childhood. His obsessive need to protect Sam. I think it's one of the first stories since season 4 that actually is strongly character based.
Bottom line is, Carver had no plans for this season. He didn't have a clear storyline. He tried a bunch of things (like Sam's possession, Castiel's human plot, Abaddon, the Mark of Cain) and kept the ones fans didn't absolutely hate. That's why Sam and Cas are aimless now. Their stories didn't stick so they now have nothing to do other than watching Dean go through his glacial MoC plot they will drag because they're thrilled by its success.
I think he actually had quite a few plans. Some of them worked, some of them didn't, but I saw far less course correction this season than last season, where Amelia went from the love of Sam's life to never being mentioned again.
I don't see how they could have anticipated heavy fan backlash by the time they wrote and filmed the episode where those stories ended (episode 9). And Sam's possession story wasn't entirely hated by fans - many liked seeing Jared play "Ezekiel" and wondered where it might go (although I don't think it was as well utilized as it could have been).
I would say that even Cas' return to being an angel was planned, because we saw him trying to be human, feeling he was worthless, and attaching his self-worth to being an angel again, his sense of duty, etc. The human Cas story was poorly paced and poorly written, but I don't think it was dropped.
What did you think was a good idea with the Campbells? Just curious. I thought they absolutely butchered Samuel's character and the others were one-note sneer machines. I remember some fan saying that maybe the show assumed viewers would get a thrill out of all the machismo and the Dean hate, but it didn't come across well to me at all. I just wondered what the point was.
ReplyDeleteYeah I agree, Dean is definately " not the innocent party in this", but I think the way Sam responds to the current situation is unfair. Sam knows that Dean couldn't live without him (yeah, it's not an excuse for Deans bevaviour) and to be honest, Dean didn't have a lot of time to think of a solution. Sam was dying and Dean had to do something because there was not much time left, so he did what Zeke offered him.. He didn't have time to check Zekes background and think of other solutions..
ReplyDeleteOf course, I see your point and you're right, "it's toxic thinking". It's the toxic thinking he grew up with: John always told him to look at Sammy, to save his little baby brother even if it hurts himself. I guess it's really hard for Dean to change this old habit and he'll always put Sam over himself.. But what I wanted to say is that Dean finally understands, that Sam wouldn't do the same for him (well, that's what Sam's saying) - of course that is also an effect of the mark, but I think it's also a little progress.
ReplyDeleteBut Dean was never about Heaven. There was no "righteous man." It was a lie used by angels who wanted to manipulate him and start the apocalypse.
ReplyDeleteI think you're confusing this with another storyline. Dean was the righteous man. That's why he was responsible for breaking the first seal when he broke in hell and shed blood. That part wasn't a lie. His soul was also touched by an angel (Castiel) and it was the first mark he bore for a while before the makeup department forgot to put it on him. He was hinted to be a true servant of heaven in the episode 99 Problems when he killed the whore of Babylon.
The fact that he was Michael's vessel while Sam was Lucifer's is a good indication which brother had which afterlife resort membership.
think he actually had quite a few plans. Some of them worked, some of them didn't, but I saw far less course correction this season than last season, where Amelia went from the love of Sam's life to never being mentioned again.
But that's the problem with this show. You don't make plans, film and show them to the audience, then do "course correction" if they don't like it. A good storyteller knows that his/her story is going to work at the end. S/he doesn't panic and change things halfway if the audience doesn't like what's going on. The ending is what matters but if you keep changing the plan halfway through and looking for "something that sticks" then you end up with a story that's a mess and lose the audience's trust.
Look at good shows like Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, Hannibal and Homeland. They all know where they are heading. There may be a few bumps in the middle, a few dull moments or characters who drag the story down (nothing as disastrous as Amelia mind you,) but in the end there is a goal, a resolution that informs the entire season. No matter what happens throughout the season, that resolution is resolute, and is decided at the beginning of the season not close to end of it based on what storyline they ended up with.
RE: your gripes.
ReplyDelete1. I think there were other, better examples of lack of realism than the one you picked. They did show Sam being weak and woozy when they went to the basement to rescue Jody. And we don't know how much time had passed between the rescue and the last scene. And while we are at it, what did they do with all the blood that was extracted? Did they put it back?
2. My view on this is simple - the showrunners always give us a few MotW episodes before jumping into the mytharc. The fans may not like it, but that's the way they usually do it. I expect there to be a similar complaint for the next episode as well.
3. I think the whole MoC story is that Dean is becoming more bloodthirsty. We've seen it before - Dean after their dad died or future!Dean or back-from-Purgatory!Dean - and the theme here is similar. The lesson here is, in my opinion, that Sam keeps his brother from going over the edge and becoming a dark hunter like Gordon and with the MoC having that effect on him, Sam would need to let go of his anger and be Dean's brother again in order to save him.
4. I agree. The show used to have some great guest stars - even the ones that didn't show up again. Their quality has been declining of late.
5. I think that was just a reminder that the brothers were still at odds - because otherwise, their interaction in this episode made it look as if the feud was over.
"I'm with you that a filler this late is a bad move, but that's what we're getting because that's Carver's show running for you."
ReplyDeleteI disagree with you there. We've gotten a filler episode this late in the season since season 1. In fact, the only season where the last 5-6 episodes were focused on mytharc was season 5. You may not like it, but you can't blame Carver for it.
Thanks for the comments.
ReplyDeleteI still stand by my #1 gripe. Sam seemed perfectly fine as they were waiting for Jodi to return. That just defied all credibility, IMO. With the amount of blood those vamps extracted from Sam, he should have been on the brink of death, IMO. He certainly shouldn't have been standing up looking perfectly okay. I guess we can just agree to disagree.
I think the difference for me w/filler of past years and the current filler is that the past seasons were better overall. This is just my opinion. Maybe I'm too nostalgic but I thoroughly enjoyed the earlier seasons of the show. I never found myself bored during an episode or even calling it filler. All the episodes were good to me, and most filler seemed to relate back to the Winchesters and/or the overall mytharc in some way. This entire season has been composed of "filler" IMO. I'm sick of it. It's not clear to me what is going on w/this season anyway. There doesn't seem to be an overarching arc so I'd like them to move on w/the story. The constant breaks and filler has only made the season seem to drag. Again, that's all JMO.
I think the MOC plot is the ONLY interesting plot left on the show right now, and I'm not enjoying its execution. I think they could be doing this a lot better.
Honestly, I think their interaction over the past few episodes has been fairly normal and not indicative of a fight btw them. That goes back to my complaint about Carver not keeping a close eye on his writers. Do the writers even know what the boys are fighting about? Does Carver? Does he have an end goal?
Well, I can only speak for myself, but I had no huge pacing issue in this past. I don't recall thinking the pacing was off last year. This year, I esp. feel the pacing is horrible. Instead of picking up after Dean got the MOC . . . for me, it feels like everything has slowed down. I'm waiting for this MOC story to pick up; it feels to be moving at very slow pace IMO.
ReplyDeleteI wish I could see Dean as being colder or more "dead," but I don't. Honestly, he seems to be acting like Dean to me. I'm not noticing many, if any, differences in him, which is probably why this story - the only story in which I'm currently interested - is not doing anything for me.
Peter, I completely agree w/you about Samuel. His character was butchered w/that "must save Mary" nonsense but the idea of the Campbells was a good one. And before Sera gave Samuel that lame background, he could have been a good addition to the show. We knew that Mary was a hunter and thought her entire family had been killed so introducing them could have expanded the Winchesters' world just as much as adding Jodi or Garth (and I like both Jodi and Garth). Plus, I must say that I loved the idea of Sam getting some friends of his own, some people who knew him (yes, I know he was soulless at the time) and were bonded to him primarily instead of Dean. I love Dean, but the show acts like only Dean can have the friendships and bonds w/people. Prior to the Campbells, Sam had no one but Dean. And, no, I didn't consider Bobby Sam's friend or pseudo-father. Those two only interacted if Dean was around. I liked that the Campbells knew Sam and trusted him. I thought they could have made good allies. I liked them all, incl. Christian!
ReplyDeleteFor me, S4 & S5 set up Dean being aligned w/angels, and Sam being aligned w/demons. I felt really bad for Sam when he learned how demons had followed him all his life. Plus, Sam had the demon blood and was destined to be Lucifer's vessel. I think Kripke established the destinies quite well. I can't really picture Dean becoming a demon. I guess we'll see how it plays out. It might be interesting.
When I talk about the forums on Supernatural.tv, I mean the actual forums. I know the part of the board you're speaking about (the front page), and I mean the actual forums used to be more lively than they are now.
I agree w/Sheri's point about Jodi not earning her stripes. Are you sure Jodi's been in 8 episodes? There as WAB, the zombie one, the one where she went on a date w/Crowley, and this last one, right? In any event, I agree that no episode should be devoted to her. This will shock many, but I didn't love WAB though I liked Bobby and loved Rufus or the other Bobby-focused episodes like DD. Those episodes were okay, but I'm not watching to see secondary characters and their lives. I want to primarily see Sam and Dean. Nowadays, everyone BUT Sam and Dean is the focus on an episode.
It seems like you spent many years not enjoying the show if the last season you really liked was 2. I've enjoyed the show much longer than you. I didn't care for S7, but thought the set up for S8 was going to be good. I have hated S8 and can safely say I hate S9. As I said, I had a unique love for Supernatural so it's been a bit more difficult to dump but that's not to say I won't.
No hate from me :-)
ReplyDeleteWe'll just have to disagree about BB b/c I couldn't stand that episode.
I thought the emotional beats and characterization were off. It changed everything I thought I knew about Dean 9 years into the show. That is unacceptable. It made all those scenes where Dean spoke of his enthusiasm and love for hunting a lie, IMO. Why should I believe he developed a love for hunting at any point? The fight about Stanford? The fight to keep Sam w/the family? The fight against normal? What was all that?
From BB, it would seem Dean never liked hunting and probably still doesn’t. He hunts b/c he thinks it’s the only thing he can do. Okay. For me, that is a HUGE change in Dean's characterization.
The episode just didn’t work for me. It was, IMO, pointless filler that messed w/the characterization of the characters for no reason. And the idea that Dean got his first kiss at 16 is crazy to me? Wasn’t Dean dumping Sam at Plucky’s all across the nation when Sam was 11 so he could chase girls or go on dates?
And don't get me started on Sam. Sam was utterly trashed in that episode. Was I really supposed to believe that a 12-yr old Sam would be playing w/an airplane out of a window like a moron, completely clueless about where Dean had been when an 8-year old Sam in AVSC completely understood the dangers of hunting and would have been able to READ THE SIGN outside of Sonny's to see where Dean was?!?!?!?! That was just silly. Oh, and Dean never once asked about Sam in during his stay at Sonny's. He never expressed any worry about him. That didn't make sense to me either.
The whole episode was a mess, IMO. The kid who played Dean was good though.
"I still stand by my #1 gripe....."
ReplyDeleteSorry, but I can't get behind this one. I did a little googling and found out the depiction here wasn't that unrealistic after all. Someone of Sam's size should have about 12 pints of blood. A person can lose upto 30% - 3.6 pints or 1.7 liters, without losing consciousness. Assuming both of Sam's arms were tapped - one emptying into the glass jar of about 750 ml capacity and the other into the bucket - we saw that the vampire had filled one glass jar and had started to fill on another. The math works out - assuming same rate of flow for both arms, a little over 1.5L had been extracted and that would make Sam dizzy, but it won't knock him out. And it definitely won't bring him to the brink of death.
There are other factors to consider as well - Sam wasn't losing blood though a major arterial trauma - he was losing it through veins. And the method of extraction didn't involve a vaccuum, the blood was flowing out under its own pressure. And if the blood pressure decreases with blood loss, then the rate of blood loss should get slower with time. So, the total amount of blood lost wasn't as great as you seem to think.
Recovering from upto 30% of blood loss wouldn't be that big of a deal - especially when there aren't any other injuries to contend with. Proper rehydration to make up for the volume would have him up and about in a matter of hours. And, as I said before, we don't know how much time had passed between finishing the hunt and saying goodbye to Jody - but assuming that Sam drank a lot of fluids and rested a bit, it is entirely plausible that he was walking around comfortably. Sure, he'd probably get tired easily, feel lethargic and sleep more than usual with occasional headaches - and these symptoms might last a few days - and he probably should've looked a bit paler - but standing around comfortably isn't entirely implausible.
"I think the difference for me..."
Well, then there is the problem. You don't feel satisfied with how the mytharc is progressing and you think that the story development has been slow and choppy. Which is why you'd prefer that the showrunners focus on the mytharc and less on stand-alones. But that doesn't mean the season's structure has been changed to include more fillers.
Jody was in 1 season 5 episode, 1 season 6 episode, 3 season 7 episodes, 1 season 8 episode, 2 season 9 episodes.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like you spent many years not enjoying the show if the last season you really liked was 2.
When I talk about really like I mean as in, "I'm happy with where everything is going, this is great stuff." Starting in season 3, I got to a place where I had a lot of issues with how certain things were being presented, but there were other things I enjoyed, so I kept watching. And I've been there ever since. I liked a lot of parts of season 3, season 4, season 5 (although I'm sure I don't sound like it on here). The only time I got close enough to where I actively disliked enough to not watch was some of season 6 and then some of season 7 (as I had already stopped because of season 6 - I didn't go back and catch up until I started watching again).
I can understand why people have had enough. And I agree with some of those complaints. It's not so much that I think SPN has always sucked and people shouldn't feel like the show has let them down. It's more that the show and the fandom made me much more guarded and cynical a long time ago so I don't have the same ability to be disillusioned.
It's still there sometimes - I was really upset about Clip Show last season (the one where Sarah Blake died), and if we get more stuff like that, then I may quit watching again.
Agreed. I'm always confused when I see fans say this. Seasons 1, 2, 4 and 7 all had filler at this point in the season.
ReplyDeleteYes, everything I have written is my own opinion. How is that a problem? I stand by all my statements. No one has to agree w/me. I'm just writing my opinion of things.
ReplyDeleteI don't see where I've stated that you (or anyone) must share my opinion.
I think you're confusing this with another storyline. Dean was the righteous man.
ReplyDeleteFair point. I forgot about the whole seal thing. I was mostly disagreeing that he was designed for Heaven.
The fact that he was Michael's vessel while Sam was Lucifer's is a good indication which brother had which afterlife resort membership.
If Dean had actually become his vessel, I would agree, but most of the story was about Dean not being his vessel. And then the show said that Adam, who had no ties to Heaven and who had never been mentioned before as a possible vessel, was as good as Dean, so it just reinforced for me that Heaven wasn't about Dean.
I think the show could have gone there, and in season 8 I was hoping they would (with the angel tablet and Naomi wanting him dead), but I think Dean has always had huge ties to Hell. It's been in him since season 3 and it was always there, even when the show tried to pretend it wasn't. I think going back to that and tying it in with his longstanding issues was a great idea.
Look at good shows like Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, Hannibal and Homeland. They all know where they are heading.
But two of those are based on already existing material (and in GoT's case, they still made changes that destroyed a central character [Jaime Lannister]).
I'm not sure if you mean SPN in general, or just Carver, but while I agree that a show shouldn't course correct (unless they really have to), SPN has done this for a long time. Kripke dumped an interesting character (Bela Talbot) for no reason other than he didn't want this to become "The Bela Show." Kripke had planned to never have angels and then changed his mind after the strike. Even the myth arc material was something Kripke had never really had in mind - he'd originally wanted to focus more on MOTW, and then as the first season progressed, he changed course.
I could say that later showrunners were worse at making these changes less smooth, but i think Kripke set the patterns of where we are now.
And I don't really feel like anything has been changed this season, although I know we disagree on that.
I can't believe she was in that many episodes. I couldn't name a single S7 episode in which she appeared. I barely remember S7. Haha!
ReplyDeleteI understand a bit better now. I can say I loved S1-S4. I really hated Bela, but not enough to dislike the show. I liked KC's Ruby so I had no problem w/her. I didn't care for GP's Ruby but thought S4 was a blast!
I had a lot of issues w/S5. That's when I began to notice the lack of POV for Sam, and I felt the depiction of the Apocalypse was weak. That was also the first season where I felt some episode were "filler." I did really like Swan Song though. Given how I felt about S5, I didn't expect to enjoy S6 but I really did. I loved everything about the Soulless!Sam arc, and I really liked the Campbells as I mentioned before. For me, I can watch the first 13 episodes of S6 straight through. The second half of S6 wasn't as strong as the front half, IMO, but it was still loads better - again in MY opinion - than anything we're seeing now.
S7 could have been excellent if the Sam stuff was really explored, but I didn't appreciate it getting backburned for yet another Dean is depressed 18-episode arc. Plus, the Leviathans were a horrible enemy.
For me, the show didn't start to go downhill in a pretty consistent way until S7. And since S7, each season has gotten progressively worse.
[i]Again, this is ALL my opinion.[/b]
Statements regarding what is or isn't realistic are often not a matter of opinion.
ReplyDeleteClearly, you have a problem w/ me and my opinion, which is fine, but I'm not going to engage you any further.
ReplyDelete"Clearly, you have a problem w/ me and my opinion,"
ReplyDeleteOnly when its not an opinion.
Does it change things for you to know that Dean was actually supposed to be 14 and Sam 10 but they felt the actor looked older than 14 and had Jensen loop "I was 16" into the finalized show? Personally I thought the kid looked 14 or at least I wouldn't've quibbled about him being 14 because the kid they picked for Sam looked about 9-10. ALSO it could've been it was his first "nice girl" kiss so he might've thought about it as his first kiss.
ReplyDeleteSam might've been so glad to get his brother back he wasn't really noticing anything. I am surprised however that he didn't remember picking him up. Wasn't that weird? Kids forget and remember all kinds of strange things and the fact that Dean was LOST ON A HUNT should've put Sam on high alert.
So there WAS a big problem with Sam there. Remember something? He should've been terrified for his brother's life if he was lost on a hunt. Also Sam checks things out, shouldn't he have googled Dean's arrest record? These things get put on line.
So the story and Dean's devotion to his brother (and I felt that John did not want to stay another night so that Dean could go to the dance was because he did not want to spring for a motel room. Oh great now I'm getting mad.
John was a douchecanoe in that episode.
Again, you point out some things that make you feel discord with the story they were telling; I could get around them. And the 16 vs 14 yr old business did irk me.
Peter, I for one never understood that Sam told his asshole cousin Campbells that Dean had been in Hell, tortured, and broke.
ReplyDeleteAND I thought Gwen was hitting on him every time they were together (well she did complain about being left behind w/the reject when they took the Alpha Vampire but then covered for him to Grandpa Shady so whatever).
Was it Ruby? She appeared in Season 3. I hated Ruby, hated her like finding sour milk in my fridge and have to go get a new gallon asap. I hated Ruby.
ReplyDeleteEvery time she was on I just wanted to smack her.. I asked my husband who was doing a rewatch of season 3 with me what he thought of her. He said, I don't trust her. It made Sam into an idiot.
ALSO it was the real beginning of a divergence in the brothers. Season 2 was them coping TOGETHER after John died.
Season 3 brought in Ruby. She was just awful. EVERY incarnation was awful except for the maid at the hotel in I Know What You Did Last Summer. And that scene was less than 4 minutes.
Martin, thanks for looking all that up. I get weak whenever I give blood because I now have something wrong w/my veins and it is brutal.
ReplyDeleteBut Sam DOES appear to be healthy (hey Gadreel DID heal him for realz) and he could handle it. I liked that Dean wouldn't leave him and helped him down the stairs. He could not be sure how many vampires were in the basement. So he was protecting his brother again.
I understand that people can view it differently, but to me Dean's snarky line to Sam was said quickly, as Dean was going to untie Sam from the chair. It did not slow the "action" of getting Sam and going to aid Jodi at all. However hauling Sam around probably did. (Not that he was going to leave Sam.)
I got into the show watching TNT reruns last summer so this is the first time I am watching the show in "real" time and I cannot believe how antsy I am getting for the payoff here. (I am a person who reads mystery novels end pages to see WHO did it and then reads to find HOW they did it because that is what I am interesting in.)
Like Lala2 I have enjoyed every season for itself; the only time I got pissed was in season 5 when Adam got brought in to be Michael's vessel. But so what?
The season still worked for me. (And I think this business of Writer as God done by Chuck and now Metatron is kind of ok and kind of cheesy. Roger Ebert used to say he hated narration to explain the plot.)
Theresa, I like your comments. I had not thought of Dean;s comment to Sam to be a lame attempt at lightening the mood. That makes sense.
ReplyDeleteI just considered it fanwank, like sometime people have to keep repeating the basic plot just in case somebody missed an episode or two.
I think "look at me, bitch" was a pretty vivid line/scene; I don't understand why Sam was not confused about Dean's strength move there (the vampire was stunned that a human could overpower him) rather than that line. On the subject of strength, why didn't Dean have a sort of smushed in face from being hit by the 2x4? Is this some super-healing from the MOC deal?
Pretty much agree with everything you stated above. I didn't hate the episode as much as I thought I would. Mostly I was expecting Jodie to either be killed or turned into a vampire. Sad that I have to assume that but let's face Gamble and Carver have pretty much killed off or ruined almost every character in the show.
ReplyDeleteI also agree that this season has had way to much filler and I wouldn't even be as disappointed in that if the filler was at least better written and more interesting but much of it simply wasn't that well done.
Carver has stated in a March interview that all season 9 events will be wrapped up by the season finale and to be honest. I really hope that's the case. They screwed up and stretched out the main story arc to the point where I stopped caring. They only thing they can do now to fix this is to simply move onto a new story and hopefully not write it as if you're still in middle school.
Bring on a more coherent and evenly focused story for season 10 again and maybe just maybe I'll start caring again. Four episodes left for season 9 and I still don't even know Metatron's end game but the funnier part of this is neither does Metatron himself or the writers who write his character.
Why do you care? My opinion - right or wrong - should be of no concern to you.
ReplyDeleteHi Evave2 :-)
ReplyDeleteDoes it change things for you to know that Dean was actually supposed to be 14 and Sam 10 . . .
Not really. I heard that they thought the actor looked 16 rather than 14, but like you, I thought he could have easily passed for 14. That would have made the kissing thing go over better, but I still would have had issues w/the actual episode. I found it strange that Dean didn't talk about Sam at all during his time at Sonny's or wonder if Sam was okay. I just can't imagine the Dean we've watched over the years NOT worrying about his brother. Plus, the anvil of "Dean gives up normal yet again for Sam" was too much for me. I also think they messed w/9 years of characterization w/that whole "Dean doesn't like hunting" story. If Dean were 12 or even younger like 10, I could have bought the episode.
Making Dean 10 would have made much more sense to me, and the characterization for Sam would have worked better. I can imagine a 6-year old Sam being completely clueless as to what was happening around him more than an 8-yr old Sam whose world was shattered one Christmas. When present-day Sam nonchalantly mentioned, "Oh, that time you were missing," I rolled my eyes so hard they practically rolled out of my skull! Haha! His characterization was AWFUL. The writer didn't even try to get anything right about him in the past or the present.
Because while your opinion, on its own, might be insignificant, it does have the potential to influence others if I let it stand without comment. And if sufficient people somehow come to share your opinion, then the show might change accordingly and I don't want that.
ReplyDeleteDude, what are you talking about? None of the opinions shared on this message board will impact the writing of this show.
ReplyDeleteAnd would it really be that awful to show Sam sitting down while making his comments instead of standing up? Is the quality of the show at risk if the boys are shown to be HURT every once in a while. That's all I said! He could have been sitting down in the Impala or even lying down. What's the big deal?
Man, be quiet, you're going to change the trajectory of the show!!!
ReplyDeleteI don't know. You tell me. This is clearly a HUGE deal for you. I found it unbelievable that Sam needed help down the stairs in one scene, and in the very next scene, he's up and fine. I doubt a significant amt of time passed. He still should have been out of it, IMO.
ReplyDeleteIt was a continuity error. It's my gripe, and I'm not letting it go. Haha!
Hahaha! I never knew I was so powerful ;-)
ReplyDeleteIts not a big deal for me - if they'd shown Sam weak and lying down, I'd be fine with it.
ReplyDeleteMy gripe is that your gripe is factually incorrect. Its not a continuity error. A significant amount of time had passed between the scenes - they had to destroy the evidence of their activities, make the cure for Alex and get back to Jody's cabin in another town - more than enough time for Sam to rest up and recover.
Well, I disagree. I don't think enough time passed.
ReplyDeleteBased on what?
ReplyDeleteBased on how I feel about it.
ReplyDeleteSo, basically, your opinion based on nothing.
ReplyDeleteIf your gut reaction to a change of scene is that no time has passed, then following GoT must be especially tough for you.
On the other hand, there were indications that a whole day had passed since the last scene - Sam and Dean had changed their clothes, something they don't do very often. And given that it was probably a busy day with curing Alex and destroying evidence, you can't blame Sam for bringing it up after they are alone together.
It doesn't, actually. That's the whole point. If your opinion was based on what you saw then you could point it out to back up your opinion. But you didn't "see" the amount of blood taken from Sam and you didn't "see" the change of clothes indicating a passage of time. All you saw was that Sam lost a certain amount of blood and that is not sufficient to support the opinion that he should've been on the brink of death for the rest of the episode. Which is why your opinion doesn't stand.
ReplyDeleteFYI, I don't particularly care about changing your view. It just grates me when people say the wrong thing and try to defend it by saying "its just my opinion".
Why do I need to back up my opinion though? Why does it matter what I think about this? I understand you think I'm wrong, but at the end of the day, who cares? It's just a tv show.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I saw, an entire bucket was filled w/Sam's blood. He should have been a bit woozy at the end of the episode in MY opinion.
If you want your opinion to be valid, then you need to back it up. And if you don't care, why hold on to it?
ReplyDeleteYou should've seen further - like the size of the bucket and the passage of time. Which is why he doesn't have to feel woozy at the end and your opinion is wrong.
When did I say I wanted or needed my opinion to be valid? I never did. I just gave my opinion, which has not changed. I feel Sam should have still been feeling the effects of the blood loss at the end of the episode. That's my opinion. No one has to agree.
ReplyDeleteMy opinion is right to me, which is all that counts. You seem to have a need for everyone to feel the same as you and share your opinions on everything. I mean you're still engaging me about this two weeks later b/c I won't say I was wrong. I don't feel I am wrong. I feel I'm right. No one person reacts the same way to something so why couldn't Sam still have been woozy at the end of the episode? You, yourself, said you would have been fine if he had been so I'm not sure what your problem is.
Well, since you keep talking about how "your opinion is right to you" and how "your opinion is the only one that counts to you" and how "you are not wrong" and how "you are right" - Clearly, you do need your opinion to be valid. You don't want to hold that opinion irrespective of whether of not you are wrong - you want to hold that opinion while believing yourself to be right.
ReplyDeleteIf you had said "I don't care about the facts presented on the show - my opinion is that Sam should've been woozy & I'm sticking to that and nothing you say will change that" - then that would mean that you don't care about opinion being valid. But, as your argument stands, you do care about your opinion being valid and are getting defensive because it has been invalidated.
My need is to tear down invalid opinions presented before me. Whether you end up sharing my own opinions is irrelevant. However, both science and facts of the show bear out my opinion while you have nothing - which is why you ARE wrong.
What is so difficult to understand? To me, he should have been woozy. You keep fighting me on what I think. I don't need anyone to agree w/me on this. You started this whole thing by saying my gripe was wrong b/c of all this research you did. I said I didn't care about your research b/c I still thought he should have been woozy.
ReplyDeleteSince then, you've been trying to get me to change my opinion. You even suggested that my opinion would be seen by the writers (highly unlikely) and lead to all these massive changes in the writing. LOL! Really!?!?! Come on, man!
That's what I think. You haven't presented anything that changes my mind since everyone's body chemistry is different. I say he should have been woozy. You say he wouldn't have ever been woozy. Okay. Who cares? As I said a loooong time ago. you can disagree w/me. If science backs you up, cool. I still feel the way I feel. That seems to bother you for some reason but that's your issue dude! Haha!
Actually, I think you've accepted the things I wanted you to accept.
ReplyDeleteYou don't care about the facts. You don't care about any research. You have nothing to back up your opinion. You saw the episode, made a snap judgment and now you are sticking to it no matter what evidence is presented.
That is all I wanted you to accept - that you don't care about the facts of the matter or any reasonable arguments or evidence presented. Once you've formed an opinion, you'll stick to it and even when you are proven wrong, you'll keep insisting that you are right.
Sweetie, I'm not insisting I'm right. You're the one who is insisting that I'm right, which is why you've been hounding me about this for the past two weeks.
ReplyDeleteI gave an opinion. That's it. It was never meant to be anything more than my opinion, but you've made it into much more than that. You decided to do research to see if my opinion was correct b/c you cared that much. I didn't and don't.
I am not a medical prof'l nor will I ever be in the position to need to know how much blood can be drained from one's body before that person loses consciousness or collapses. You are the one who believed I was stating my opinion as absolute fact. You are the one who keeps harping on this b/c it means a lot to you.
I'm not going to lie. I didn't read your post w/the Google research b/c when I read the words "I did some research on Google to . . ." I realized you cared way too much about this for my taste so I skipped the rest of your post. And that's not b/c I hate to be proven wrong. You have been very defensive throughout this entire exchange. I'm not sure why.
I post for fun and to see if anyone shares my opinions about the overall show, not little details like this. This is a tv show. It is not meant to be taken quite as seriously as you are taking it. I know things don't have to be depicted realistically but there can be a happy medium. Here, I found it unrealistic for Sam to be struggling to stand in one scene and then upright and fine in the next scene. That's it. I didn't study the scene and the actors' clothing to gage if several hours passed. I didn't complete outside research to verify my opinion. I just gave my gripe about that scene. I found it strange, and I'm not the only one who felt that way about that scene. You blew this way up into something it didn't need to be.
"Sweetie, I'm not insisting..."
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure that I've been insisting that you are wrong.
"I gave an opinion...."
So we agree that your opinion is not based on facts and therefore not correct. Good.
"I am not a medical..."
Yes, whether or not what anyone says is based on truth is important to me. What of it?
"I'm not going to lie...."
On the contrary, I've been on the offensive. I've nothing to defend.
"I post for fun and to..."
Given the facts of the case, it is not unrealistic. The only reason I keep proving you wrong is because you keep insisting you are right.
We agree on nothing except that you are obsessed w/me and my opinion on this show. That's about all we agree on.
ReplyDeleteNow I'm curious to see how long this will go on for you . . . Guess what . . .
I am right. It was absolutely, unequivocally UNREALISTIC to NOT show Sam passed out at the end of the episode.
Yeah, especially since this the second time on the show that Sam has incurred a significant blood loss and not have to be transfused ... at least this time show had him stumble a bit on the stairs. What part of 'this one's tapped' (i.e.. nearly drained) does the poster who's confronting you not grasp?
ReplyDeleteClaps! An informal opinion doesn't require the presentation of detailed facts, it can be subjective, based only on observation and sometimes similar, personal experiences or persons who are known to you personal experiences.
ReplyDelete"We agree on nothing except that you are obsessed w/me and my opinion on this subject. That's about all on which we agree."
ReplyDeleteThat's not true. You agreed that science backs me up. You also agreed that you ignored canonical facts about the amount of blood and the passage of time. And, finally, you agreed that nothing will make you change your opinion.
"I am right. It was absolutely, unequivocally UNREALISTIC to NOT show Sam passed out at the end of the episode."
Then try proving it with facts. If you can't, then it is not absolute, it is not unequivocal and it is realistic.
Good summation, LaC. I liked 9.19 mostly because I love Jody; episodes ~17-20ish of past seasons have been comprised of at least 2 MOTW/2 Mytharc leading into the finale episodes of 21-22 or 23. I considered 9.19 sort of similar to the 'Charlie' episodes in S7 and 8, designed to learn more about an important 'guest' character in the Winchesters' lives.
ReplyDeleteThank you! I'm glad I wasn't the only one who understood that a significant amount of Sam's blood had been drained!
ReplyDeleteThanks again, Cyana :-)
ReplyDeleteMartin blew up my opinion into this huge thing when it was just that: an opinion. Anyway, I should probably stop engaging him about it, but thank you for the support!
Whatever, dude. I said IF science backed you up . . . .IF . . . I have no idea if it does b/c (1) I haven't researched it and (2) all people of the same height/weight don't react the same way to something.
ReplyDeleteI don't agree w/you at all. As someone else pointed out, the vamp mentioned starting in on Dean b/c Sam was "about tapped out." That says to me a significant amount of his blood was drained, which means he should have been in a much worse state than he was shown to be at the end of the episode. He couldn't stand in one scene and was fine in the other. It was unrealistic.
I'm not going to do research to prove anything b/c that is unnecessary. I've given my thought on the scene, and that's that. Have fun discussing this w/yourself b/c I'm done.
" I said IF science..."
ReplyDeleteIt is not up to you whether or not science backs me up - it does. If you have no idea whether or not it does, then that is due to your own willful ignorance - for which I am not responsible. You can lead the horse to the water, but you can't make it drink. And people reacting differently is irrelevant - if a sizable portion react the way Sam did to blood loss, then his reaction is realistic.
" As someone else pointed..."
Actually, what the vamp said was "Tapped this keg. Get the short-haired one ready". Which means they've started draining - not finished it. Which means you are wrong in the assumption that a significant amount of blood was lost. Which means you are wrong about his reaction being unrealistic.
"I'm not going to do research to prove anything..."
Then you have no business claiming you are right. With no evidence to back you up and all the evidence against you - that proves that you are wrong.
You're welcome. I highly recommend you disengage from responding further to this poster... this poster seems intent on cyber-stalking and bullying you into concession.
ReplyDeleteI know, right? Haha!
ReplyDeleteI knew that when I started w/him. I don't know why I indulged him as long as I did, but no more :-)
Sometimes it's great to engage in a debate over differing POV's on the same material, but this poster crossed lines of civil discussion when the poster started to and then kept mocking your sound opinions.
ReplyDeleteTrue! His anger about the whole situation was actually quite comical to me, but it was a pointless conversation that needed to end.
ReplyDeleteFor it to be a "sound" opinion, it would require facts backing it up. It doesn't, so it isn't.
ReplyDeleteSeems I missed this comment.
ReplyDelete1. When was the first time Sam incurred major blood loss?
2. Why do you consider the blood loss this time to be "significant"?
3. Why do you think "this keg's tapped" means he has been nearly drained? Tapping a keg simply means that you start draining.
I did ask about which "observations" this opinion was based on - but it wasn't based on that.
ReplyDeleteI think Cyber-stalking would require more than replying to comments made on a public forum. As for bullying - I don't consider presenting reasoned arguments qualifies.
ReplyDeleteMaybe its because you can't see me - but I'm not angry, I'm enjoying myself tremendously.
ReplyDelete