“This episode was quite an exercise in writer/showrunner hubris, I thought, via Metatron's endless exposition.” –spn_djinn, IMDB forums
“Metatron thinks he's God, and Thompson thinks he's Edlund.” – tikistitch, IMDB forums
“Nothing happened in this episode.” –various
“Metatron burning the Winchester Gospels is a slap in the face to Kripke from Carver, imo. Also, this means canon is no more and they can continue to make it up as they go along.” –Anonymous, spn-gossip forums
The above are quotes from online fans about episode 18. They reflect some of the thoughts I have about this episode, and about what Carver and his writers are doing to the show.
Welcome to the 13th Gripe Review. This week the subject is Episode 18, an episode in which the writers talk directly to us via Metatron (ironic considering how unpleasant his character is) and reveal to us their god complex.
No wonder there’s no improvement in writing after all the criticism. And even though the downward slide in the ratings could be attributed more to the hiatus and spring hours than quality of the show, the sharpness of the drop (from 1.1 steadily to 0.7) could be correlated to a lack of interest in the show’s current story. It is anecdotal evidence but when my coworker, who defines casual viewer, DVRs the episode and falls asleep watching it, you know there’s a problem.
I won’t diagnose that problem here. It’s the topic of another review, hopefully happening at the end of the season. In this review, as always, I will list the problems I, and other viewers including my casual viewer friend, had with this episode.
Gripe #1 – This guy, talking to the camera
Edlund did it once, in an episode which could be considered his masterpiece. We had waited a whole season for Castiel to explain himself, to tell us what happened to get him to that point - where he would consider betraying his human friends - and after they found out about it.
“Let me tell you my story,” he says as he raises his eyes to the camera, “let me tell you everything.”
The effect was electrifying. I still remember the chills I got before the title card splashed in front of my eyes. Everything about that very brief shattering of the fourth wall, from dialogue, to direction to the story that came before it, was done well. To do it again you needed a writer with the caliber of Edlund, and an actor as skilled and at home in his role as Misha.
Robbie Thompson is not Ben Edlund. He isn’t even in the vicinity of Edlund's school. Curtis Armstrong, decent actor he is, does not have the familiarity and command over Metatron that Misha had over Castiel. Castiel is a complex, multi-dimensional and highly popular character whom we would want to listen to. Metatron is a one-note yapper who has no personality layers or likability to draw from. You couldn't even call him a villain, not in the same way you would Azazel, Lucifer or Abaddon. I’m not even sure what his plan on the show is, to know why I should care about him. His boring monologue about writing and writers this episode didn’t give any clue.
Gripe #2 – This guy, just this guy
I already ranted about Metatron in the last gripe, but he is such an integral cause of grief in this episode that I'm not ready yet to let him go.
In addition to copyright infringing Edlund’s Castiel, Metatron’s monologue this episode was a cheap rip off of Swan Song’s poignant and masterful narration by Chuck. He, being a real writer, knew you shouldn’t talk about writing when your audience isn’t a group of literature students but a bunch of people , there to be entertained. He knew you had to tell a story and make it engaging. He knew the way you told it had to be skillful, that it was how you told it that grabbed an audience in your spell.
Metatron’s monologue was not entertaining. If anything it distracted from the main plot of the episode. It was a bunch of jargon about writing and storytelling which had no context in the show and nothing to engage an audience with. It wasn’t funny, or terrifying, or poetic, or emotional. It didn’t even make sense.
Exposition – having a character sit another character down and explain the plot to him – is a bad practice in general. Exposition that has no context, and makes no sense, i.e. doesn’t tell the viewer anything about plot or character is worse. You’re not only telling, but what you are telling is unnecessary and bland, especially when delivered by a character like Metatron. It means you, the writer, are committing three crimes at once: telling instead of showing, supplying useless information, and boring your audience's heads off.
Gripe #3 – This awesome storyline, thrown in trash
For a while watching this episode I felt excited. I almost had the same kind of anticipation mixed with joy I used to feel when I watched the earlier seasons.
It happened when Gabriel showed up and told Castiel he was done slacking off and would lead the angels against Metatron.
Let me tell you why that is a good story. It has nearly all of the ingredients of a classic hero’s journey. A reluctant hero (Castiel), a mentor (Gabriel), a goal (taking Heaven back), a villain (Metatron), and the possibility of a team of heroes (like the Avengers) if they got together with Sam and Dean. It all would have worked so much better had they put it in the script instead of debunking it as a lol!dream.
The real ongoing story not only featured another boring exposition by a villain to a tied up hero (imagine how many times we’ve had that this season,) it also got me confused. As off now I’ve watched Metatron’s dialogue twice and I still can’t tell what his plan is. All I know is that he wants to write a story with Castiel as the villain and himself as the hero. What he wants to achieve with that story is a mystery. Does he want to return to Heaven? Board Heaven up? Become God? I don’t know. There wasn’t a hint. And if they are intentionally keeping it a secret to keep us on our toes they failed. No one I know of is on his or her toes, though some are passed out on their couches, sleeping.
Gripe #4 – This scenario, going the opposite way
When the brothers captured Gadreel, and Sam snarled at him, “Remember me?” I cheered. Gadreel had done everyone, but mostly Sam, a lot of wrong. Now it was time for him to pay and I couldn’t wait for Sam to deal him his comeuppance. I could almost taste that conversation, with Sam now having the upper hand and Gadreel at his mercy instead of the other way around.
There was something else I was looking forward to since the beginning of the episode. I wanted to see Cas and Dean reunite and for Cas to find out about the Mark of Cain. I was interested to hear the conversation that would follow seeing as Cas probably knew a lot about the mark and its side effects.
Neither scenario happened. Instead Dean told Sam he was too close to the case (So what? He might beat the guy to a pulp, like Dean did?) and sends him off to find Castiel. He himself stayed behind to interrogate Gadreel. The result is yet another case of minimal interaction between the three main characters – since Sam doesn’t find Cas – adding further to the disjointed feeling of the episode, and yet another reminder of how much Sam doesn’t care about Dean via Gadreel.
So in summary, the writer and director of this episode chose to separate the brothers, not give Dean and Cas a reunion, not give Sam a chance to have his well-deserved chat, but found it necessary to remind us one more time how divided and cold the brothers are.
Before you say it was because of the Mark of Cain I say I know. They wanted to emphasize the Mark's effect. But in their single minded joy at finding something that worked with the audience, and their absolute inability to show more than one layer of a story at a time, they tossed the resolution of the first half of the season, and a chance to bring some heart back into the show, out the window.
Gripe #5 – The angel mythology, going everywhere
Honestly what’s happening with the angels? Their canon is getting even more convoluted than the reapers’. First it was the glowing smoke that entered bodies like demons did, then they stole each other’s graces, now you can trap them inside a symbol, like a Devil’s Trap? Where did that come from, and if it existed (which Cas would have known about) why did the boys keep bothering with oil and fire all this time?
It goes on. Why would an angel sport a black eye? Why didn’t Castiel ask himself that question when he met the last survivor of that massacre? Why didn’t he ask her? If Castiel, with his borrowed grace, that according to Metatron was burning out, could heal her wound why couldn't she herself do it? Since none of this is going to be answered on the show could Carver kindly outline his version of the angel lore in a future interview?
I’m not going to bother asking how Dean managed to punch an angel into unconsciousness. As with everything else these days “the Mark of Cain did it,” will be the answer.
Gripe #6 – This formerly awesome team, working separately
I am a Team Free Will fan. If it were up to me every episode would have Sam, Dean and Castiel traveling the country and kicking demon and evil angel asses. My idea of season nine, after watching the season 8 finale and knowing that Misha was still a regular, was exactly that.
To see how it turned out, how even in episodes when they communicate they lead separate stories, and don't get together until the last few minutes only to get separated again, it disheartening. I say that on behalf of all TFW fans. And since Dean+Cas fans are disappointed because the two barely share scenes, and the Dean+Sam fans are disappointed because they only act as coworkers now, and Sam reportedly doesn’t care about Dean, and Impala fans are disappointed because the brothers no longer travel the country, the only ones not complaining are the casual viewers who, according to one sample at least, are fast asleep at their TVs.
Personal Gripe – No room for human (and angel) emotions?
There was a particular gripe I had with this episode that I brought up with some fans and encountered some resistance. Therefore I am listing it as a personal, could-be-just-me gripe.
I didn’t like the way Sam and Dean talked about the situation after Metatron told Sam he had Castiel. When Sam told Dean about the trade his response was, “We can’t trust Metatron,” and Sam’s response was to convince him to go there and try to trap Metatron. This is all well and good in terms of plot, and in character for the most part. My problem is that nowhere in that conversation did either of them mention the danger to Castiel’s life. Dean may not have known about Metatron’s promise to kill Castiel, but Sam did. Why not have him say to Dean, “I know (we can’t trust Metatron,) but he’ll kill Cas if we don’t go?” Why act like their friend’s life means nothing to them? Are we supposed to believe Sam cares for no one now? Or is it a Castiel thing to be considered dispensable?
And what about Cas’ reaction toward Dean’s mark? Since when does he see trouble in Winchester land and lets them go by themselves. He tells Sam, “Keep an eye on him.” Why? Has the tales of Sam Winchester, the brother who does not care reached so far and wide that someone has to remind him to watch over Dean? And how does that help? Sam doesn’t have superpowers. If the Mark acts up and Dean attacks Sam who’s going to protect the two of them? Cas always had this natural instinct to stick around in such situations. He even used to watch over Dean while he slept. I guess he smoked the same joint the brothers did and decided that going back to his motel room in time to be absent for the next couple of episodes was the right course of action in this heartless landscape.
Kudos – Richard Speight Jr aka Gabriel
I already said how much I enjoyed the part with Gabriel. I accredit most of it to the excellent way RSJ plays Gabriel and the seamless chemistry he has with Misha Collins. It’s a shame we didn’t get to see him interact with the rest of the cast.
He was able to make the script’s awkward dialogue sound natural (seriously, what was the deal with all the Downton Abbey references?) and feel at home even when he was dropped in the show after so long. Why the show refuses to bring his character back while it keeps Charlie, Garth, the Ghost Facers and Krissy around is beyond me.
This is the first review after a long hiatus. Like the show’s ratings I don’t expect it to get that many views. But if you happen to get this far without falling asleep please don’t hesitate to post your thoughts in the comment section.
Tessa
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twitter.com/tessa_marlene
Tessa, I liked the episode 'WAY more than you did, like a lot.
ReplyDeleteRSJ was GREAT playing somebody playing the character he played because he IS
In retrospect I agree, I want my three boys together and I was pissed off Castiel did not mention to Sam what the hooey the Mark WAS or was DOING TO DEAN.
Hey, JA's shoulders made ME happy.
I think Sam is finding out that being angry all the time is no way to live and the fact that Dean has removed himself personally from the equation is not playing to Sam's preconceived idea of Dean begging for his forgiveness. Dean is not engaging at all with Sam as his brother. Matter of fact, if Benny were to come back he would be engaging with him more personally I think.
Metatron is wrong in the original premise of his script: he is not nor ever can be the Hero. He is not Hero material. YEARS ago I was watching Young and the Restless (back when it started, back when the sisters whose last name I can't remember were the Stars) and one sister was a writer who wrote a book about her family. She was always in conflict with her elder sister who was kind gentle and everybody loved her but she was FRAGILE. Anyway, sister wrote a book and she was supposed to be the heroine, and everybody could see she was shunted aside for older sister. She took it to her publisher who said the emphasis was all wrong, the heroine was the older sister that everybody would care what happened to her, the younger sister had let her life be ruled by jealousy and that was never attractive. Younger sister was stunned (editor thought it was a work of enhanced fiction based on family, NOT family history). I don't remember how it turned out.'
Anyway, even in the story Metatron was revealing to us, he is NOT the Hero. He is having angels trapped and murdered. He is personally repulsive in how he views others-not-himself.
Who reading this story would find him a hero? Even if Castiel AND the brothers lost and this was the only history, who would see Metatron as hero?
I think the whole premise points to the fact that any author may be blinded to WHAT he is writing and/or HOW he is writing it, to HOW it is perceived.
I usually agree with you, but here we're at complete odds - I think you've made some valid points = but I loved this episode and was gripped, entertained and intrigued.
ReplyDeleteI've watched it 3x, and still noticing tiny things that make me squeal with delight - the goods in the anonymous GasNSip all having their branding removed, the giant glass tray next to Castiel, Metatron's aping of Hugh Heffner and Sherlock Holmes. The manual typewriter affectation. There were great dialogue moments too "I'm an entity of my word" and "I hate continuity errors".
I watched it all through the narcissistic eyes of Metatron and his vanity was everywhere. I can't wait for him to be hoist on his own petard.
Thanks for the comment. I'm glad you liked the episode. This past couple of days I've been only reading complaints.
ReplyDeleteDean is not engaging at all with Sam as his brother. Matter of fact, if Benny were to come back he would be engaging with him more personally I think.
This is something else I don't understand, and posted in the previous review. How did they both flip so abruptly and without a transition? Please don't say because of the Mark, I see that used a lot these days every time I ask a question about a plothole or characters acting OOC.
Metatron is wrong in the original premise of his script: he is not nor ever can be the Hero. He is not Hero material.
I agree. But my question still is, what's his end game? I can't imagine he wants to take the book to a publisher and print it because he is jealous of Cas or the Winchesters. So what does writing a book establish for him?
I think the whole premise points to the fact that any author may be blinded to WHAT he is writing and/or HOW he is writing it, to HOW it is perceived.
I'd like to think that's the case, which means the SPN writers inadvertently criticized themselves. :D
Thanks for the comment. Your disagreement is duly noted.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I noticed though is that you viewed the episode as its own entity and enjoyed the tiny details and innuendos within its scope. I saw it as part of a whole, and the problems with it being a part of that whole and not adding much to it, looking for things to advance the overall plot as opposed to serve the episode itself, annoyed me.
I didn't hate the episode but was left, as usual, feeling dissatisfied. Watching SN reminds me of when I used to watch soap operas and why I stopped watching soap operas. There's too much 'set-up' and not enough 'pay-off'. It's always, 'if you want to see what happens, tune into the next episode', then you tune in and you're stuck with the same thing; waiting. Early seasons of SN followed the big story throughout the season but the writers still found ways to entertain and move the audience in individual episodes. There were ambitious storylines with writers who had the skill to carry them off and a showrunner who kept everything focused. I still hope that, somehow, things will improve but I don't see how it can unless they bring in new, highly skilled writers.
ReplyDeleteI can see where you are coming from but I took all the Metatron influencing the story quite differently. He is a bad fanfic writer, writing himself in as an all powerful Gary Sue and who can't see he is not even the villain at this point but an irritant to over come. Cas isn't really going after Metatron he is leading the angels to get back into heaven. If Metatron dies in the process then fine but it is getting the angels home, not having them massacred in someone's petty game and heaven settled that is the priority before his grace burns out.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Winchesters, sure they'll help Cas but the civil war in hell and between them is their main concerns.
Metatron can't even push the plot of his own story along without using proxies, Gadreel, Cas and Gabriel. He admits he steal from better writers and can't see the audiences they were going for. He's annoyed that Crowley and Abaddon are stealing his thunder.
As for Sam, even though I would have loved him and Gadreel talking about what the later saw in the formers head but I am hoping that we see something later on. That it has gotten to the point where he realises that the his side of his and Dean's relationship is so out of whack that his own friends feel he does need reminding to look after his brother.
Thanks for the comment. I agree that Metatron isn't even the villain but an irritant. But if that's true then who is the villain? And what is stopping the angels to get back to Heaven?
ReplyDeleteAll this writing a story stuff came from the left field. Metatron hadn't mentioned his love for storytelling since his first appearance in season 8. He's been all about murdering prophets and recruiting his own team. Now all of a sudden he is a writer? To what end? What would that achieve that we aren't shown or even told about?
As for the Winchesters, sure they'll help Cas but the civil war in hell and between them is their main concerns.
I know they have their own show and were just guest starring in Cas'. [eyeroll emoticon.]
As for Sam, even though I would have loved him and Gadreel talking about what the later saw in the formers head but I am hoping that we see something later on. That it has gotten to the point where he realises that the his side of his and Dean's relationship is so out of whack that his own friends feel he does need reminding to look after his brother.
I have the same hope.
Thanks fort the comment. I didn't 'hate' the episode either. Just felt indifferent about it even though as a TFW fan I should have loved it.
ReplyDeleteThere's too much 'set-up' and not enough 'pay-off'.
This is one of my major problems too. The same thing that happened with the Naomi story in S8. There was so much set up about her controlling Castiel and using him to spy on the Winchesters and it all ended in a big, fat nothing.
The thing that is stopping the angels getting into heaven is themselves really. If there is a stairway and they stopped fighting among themselves then they could find it. Or settle on Earth.
ReplyDeleteMetatron just didn't think through his revenge too well. Once in heaven you really think he'd be able to stop them?
As for writing stories, no he didn't mention it in season 8. But I'm guessing seeing how revenge isn't as satisfying as he thought (well you'd think he'd realise that after reading all those stories without revenge being truly satisfying) he wants to make his life better and writing is what he knows. Like a bad fanfiction writer - I didn't like where the story went so I'll rewrite it to make it satisfy my whims and everyone else will love it too. But in truth they don't. His aim is simply to justify his own actions and make himself feel better.
As for Sam and Dean's relationship. I'm hoping that we will get more on that next episode because I'm thinking that is going to be the other half of the anvil that was dropped in Thinman.
I guess I didn't phrase my question well. If Metatron is writing a fanfiction to make himself feel better and satisfy his whims I understand. What I'm asking is what this writing will achieve within the world of Supernatural. We all know Chuck's writing made things happen in the real world (or he had visions about the things that would happen in the real world and wrote them, I'm not sure.) But what about Metatron? is his writing supposed to do anything beyond satisfying his Mary Sue tendencies? Will it help him win through magical means?
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with Plato, loved the ep and since I was devastated with what they did to Sam in season 8, I have started doing it ep by ep. Carver has totally trashed the SPN that I had loved, but since I still love the characters and Sam seemed his old self this ep, worried about Dean, I will take what I can get.
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed Metatron trying to be Chuck and just knowing free will is going to win out, unless Carver gets in the way, I liked him thinking he is a "hero".
Gabriel was awesome and loved the way it was played.
My favorite Angel, Castiel is getting his flock together and hopefully not leading them to slaughter. FREE WILL CAS, just remember FREE WILL. ;)
I think that in Metatron's head his writing is going the same thing. The thing is that it isn't really. He didn't know that Gadreel had been taken and he mentions that he has to do rewrites because of his well drawn characters surprising him and not to mention he isn't publishing the first draft like God did. But to god and Chuck the first draft is it because that is what happened.
ReplyDeleteMetatron is acting like he is god, in his writing he is God, but he doesn't truly have the confidence to believe that he is, because unlike God or when Cas was God he can't get a handle on people having free will to surprise him and not focus on him. Think about it, he came back after millennium of hiding, kicked the angels out of heaven and have one made a move to get back in, or try to contact him? Not that we've seen, they seem to be more fighting among themselves. The hunters are focusing on hell, sure it is because Crowley said there was no way to reverse Metatron's spell but they haven't called Crowley on that and now they are dealing with Crowley and Abaddon not him. He gets Gadreel to kill Kevin and stopped having anymore prophets but it is Gadreel that the Winchesters seem more intent on getting their hands on, because they haven't made a move on getting the angel tablet back or seeing if ghost Kevin remembers anything on that tablet.
His writing to satisfy his Mary Sue tendencies just show us how delusional and out of his depth he is while the trappings of that room, the smoking jacket and the mentions of Downtown Abbey are to tell us that somehow he is giving off the illusion of being above all the pettyness when all he wants is to be the centre of attention.
I'd love to know where people are getting the idea that Sam doesn't care for Dean (or Castiel, but that probably is just you. Sam instantly agreed to the trade and had no hesitation giving up his chance for revenge). Is it because Sam didn't instantly forgive and forget what Dean did, or because he's standing his ground and refusing to allow himself to be treated like a piece of property? Is it Sam saying that he wouldn't subject Dean to the same thing that Dean subjected him to (despite knowing that Dean wouldn't want it)? Is it the asking him how he is or ringing him when he's on a hunt or the looks of concern or doing research on the Mark of Cain? He hasn't given him the cold shoulder, he hasn't thrown Deans actions in his face again and again and said that he wouldn't be trusted. I'd really love to know exactly what it is that, for some people, shows that Sam doesn't care. Or is that just going to be the stick by which to beat Sam with this season?
ReplyDeleteDitto on Sam being his old self. I hope they keep him that way and not inflict another supernatural/psychological/biological condition on him again. I wished he was the one who got to beat up Gadreel. That bastard deserved it.
ReplyDeleteYour post just reminded me of something. Didn't Castiel get his flock together last time he appeared on the show? IIRC after Bartholomew was killed his followers made Cas their leader
I'd love to know where people are getting the idea that Sam doesn't care for Dean
ReplyDeleteFunny you ask after this episode.
From Meta Fiction transcript:
Gadreel - I have been in your brother's body, Dean.He would not trade his life for yours.
Dean - Well, thanks for the rerun, pal. Sam's already told me all that crap.
Wanna guess who told him that crap and how people found out about it?
As for Castiel, I thought I made my case clear in the review. Sam knew Cas would be killed if they didn't make the trade. But when Dean said they couldn't trust Metatron he didn't say the price of not going was Cas' life. Usually when a life is in the balance the Winchesters rush to the rescue no matter what. They don't sit around arguing if it's strategically viable to do so. Remember last season when Crowley wanted the demon tablet and started killing all those people? Did the brothers talk about how they couldn't trust Crowley when they ran to save Sarah, or the cupcake girl? No. It's just Cas who apparently is expendable. That's not a criticism of Sam but that whole dialogue plus the fact that they didn't inquire about their friend when they met Metatron later. Apparently trapping M was more important than making sure their friend was safe.
Except that's not what Sam said, and if Dean unclogged the wax of self pity out of his ears he's actually manage to hear what his brother was saying. Sam didn't say he wouldn't trade his life for Dean (and Dean didn't trade his life for Sam here), he said that under the same circumstances he wouldn't do the same thing that Dean did at the start of the season ie despite knowing his brothers wishes trick him into possession by an angel (and following a buttload of pins in the brain torture, a demon). He wouldn't gaslight him for months or make him believe he was losing his mind, and he certainly wouldn't do it again.
ReplyDeleteAnd if Sam did trade his life for Dean is this what Dean would want? Perhaps Sam should try it out. Let him kill a buttload of people as part of some ritual to 'save' his brother. This ritual will also take the MoC off Dean and transfer it onto Sam. Of course, Sam would do this knowing that he'd end up in hell and because they are Winchesters, there would be far reaching consequences to this ie Michael and Lucifer set free etc. And as soon as Dean starts complaining about it and telling Sam how selfish he is for doing it (and rest assured Dean will), Sam can just turn to Dean and say 'This is what you wanted. This is the big sacrifice you wanted and now you got it. Does this prove I 'care'?' It would be interesting to see how Dean would react to that.
If Castiel was expendable then they wouldn't have made the trade. The bad guys always say they'll kill the hostage, that's what makes them bad guys. Would you have preferred it if they just jumped in with no plan and hoped Metatron was not going to go back on his word?
I really wan't surprised when Sam wasn't the one to beat up Gadreel. They were planning to 'beat some answers' out of him so it was pretty obvious that it was going to be Dean. We've seen in the past that torture and physical interrogation in Dean's thing, not Sams.
ReplyDeleteI did find it funny (and very annoying) when Dean saw fit to order Sam out because he was 'too close' to it and Sam just left ,because I remember what happened the last time a Winchester was told they were 'too close' to a case!
And even though the downward slide in the ratings could be attributed more to the hiatus and spring hours than quality of the show, the sharpness of the drop (from 1.1 steadily to 0.7) could be correlated to a lack of interest in the show’s current story.
ReplyDeleteIt actually hasn't been that steady. They were 1.0 in their last episode. While I'm sure some fans have lost interest, I'm not really sure what to correlate it too, as all the highest-rated CW shows this week were .7.
And what about Cas’ reaction toward Dean’s mark? Since when does he see trouble in Winchester land and lets them go by themselves. He tells Sam, “Keep an eye on him.” Why? Has the tales of Sam Winchester, the brother who does not care reached so far and wide that someone has to remind him to watch over Dean? And how does that help? Sam doesn’t have superpowers. If the Mark acts up and Dean attacks Sam who’s going to protect the two of them? Cas always had this natural instinct to stick around in such situations. He even used to watch over Dean while he slept.
Cas watching over Dean as he slept was played as a joke. We only saw him do that twice, and both times were when he needed Dean's help for something, not because he was protecting Dean. He "watched over" Dean once when Dean was with Lisa, and protected him (or so he thought, anyway), but that was when he could teleport.
Cas has always left Dean and Sam behind, just as they've always left him behind. It's a function of Misha being in a limited amount of episodes per season. It's annoying, but I don't think it's "heartless," at least not in this instance. Cas has a lot of stuff going on.
Cas also can't teleport anymore, so he can't just pop in on Dean and then pop back out.
I also wanted to say that, while I realize it's your review and I respect that 100%, I'm wary of using posts from other forums to back up an opinion. Sometimes other forums have their own agenda that doesn't really match up to the quality of an episode. Some of the forums you mentioned likely hated everything about most of "The Man Who Would Be King," and likely hated most of what Ben Edlund wrote for Cas. I can't say they're now right just because they also disliked this episode.
Do you really think that Carver was trying to insult Kripke? Do you think he included a scene with burning a Carver/Edlund solely to insult Kripke and insult fans? Does he seem that petty to you? I don't know the man, and I don't agree with all the decisions he's made, but I don't feel comfortable assuming that about him, that he's so petty he would burn a book to take a shot at the man who hired him and a man we've never really heard about him being on bad terms with.
As off now I’ve watched Metatron’s dialogue twice and I still can’t tell what his plan is. All I know is that he wants to write a story with Castiel as the villain and himself as the hero. What he wants to achieve with that story is a mystery. Does he want to return to Heaven? Board Heaven up? Become God? I don’t know. There wasn’t a hint.
ReplyDeleteI doubt he has a plan. His plan is mostly getting revenge and showing everyone how awesome he is. He's a lunatic. I guess he could get something together soon and we will hear it in more expository dialogue like he was spewing in this episode, but I think if you asked him what his plan was, he wouldn't know either.
It goes on. Why would an angel sport a black eye? Why didn’t Castiel ask himself that question when he met the last survivor of that massacre? Why didn’t he ask her? If Castiel, with his borrowed grace, that according to Metatron was burning out, could heal her wound why couldn't she herself do it?
She looked disfigured to me, more than just having a black eye. He probably assumed she'd been maimed while the others had been killed.
Cas was on a higher level than many other angels. I'm not sure he still is, but frankly, I think even if they tried to answer, people would say it was a canon violation. People say anything with the angels violates canon. The show has been rewriting angel canon since season 5, if not sooner, so they may as well avoid some of the overexplaining that never makes sense anyway.
He was able to make the script’s awkward dialogue sound natural (seriously, what was the deal with all the Downton Abbey references?)
I thought that was clever. It wasn't what Gabriel would have said. It was a script from Metatron, who likely just saw Gabriel as a pop culture idiot who would now sacrifice himself for Cas.
One of the reasons I struggled with what Gabriel was doing was because I never saw Gabriel as the type who would come out of the shadows to lead a battle. He was afraid, and his dying at Lucifer's hand would likely just reinforce that fear if he was still alive. So I sort of liked that it was a trick.
To be honest with you, I had mixed feelings about the episode - I felt that nothing happened, and I thought there was too much time spent on Metatron talking and not enough on giving Gadreel a POV or characterization.
I have seen a positive reaction to it online though, so I don't think that most people hated it or that the ratings mean most people hated it. I think it was probably a polarizing episode. But I didn't take any of it as a personal attack. To me, most of the personal attacks were in seasons 5 and 7.
This is what bothers me most about Carvers Dean, no-one knows what he wants, himself included. Last season he completely talked down Sam's normal life. He made it perfectly clear that Sam was letting people down by not hunting, that it was his duty to hunt, people were dying by him not hunting. This halfway through the season it was a case that Dean wanted to die so that Sam could have that normal life that he didn't want Sam having at the start of the season!
ReplyDeleteNow we don't know what Dean wants if he dies. At some stage before season 8 there was an agreement made between Sam and Dean that if one died there would be no deals etc. Sam believed Dean was dead, kept to that and Dean was furious so did he want Sam to make a deal (whether for information or Dean life) or go to great, dangerous lengths to get him back?
Now this season he's disappointed and believes that Sam doesn't love him because Sam won't do what Dean seemingly doesn't want him to do! So what on earth does Dean want??
This is what bothers me most about Carvers Dean, no-one knows what he wants, himself included.
ReplyDeleteHe wanted his family and friends to be close to him. He felt personally rejected and abandoned on multiple levels when he came back from Purgatory.
This halfway through the season it was a case that Dean wanted to die so that Sam could have that normal life that he didn't want Sam having at the start of the season!
He didn't want to die. He knew he probably would die. That's the life of a hunter. He knew Sam didn't want to be a hunter. He decided he'd rather die on a big quest that would help people than just get killed by some monster at random.
Sam didn't understand what he meant, because Sam just thought they could both survive the trials and both be happy. They couldn't.
Now we don't know what Dean wants if he dies.
He doesn't want anything. He feels worthless and he feels that his only value is in killing Abaddon, because he's going to Hell anyway, he might as well make it count.
At some stage before season 8 there was an agreement made between Sam and Dean that if one died there would be no deals etc. Sam believed Dean was dead, kept to that and Dean was furious so did he want Sam to make a deal (whether for information or Dean life) or go to great, dangerous lengths to get him back?
Dean wasn't dead and in his mind there was no reason to believe he was dead. When he clearly was dead, at the end of season 3, he wasn't angry or hurt when he realized Sam hadn't brought him back.
I think Dean sees his main goal in life, beyond hunting, as protecting Sam. He feels that was his only sense of worth, especially when everything else was taken away from him in season 8 (Cas, Benny) and early season 9 (Cas, Charlie, Kevin, etc.). So when Sam says he wouldn't do the same for Dean, even if Sam does still love and care about him, Dean takes it as a rejection, because mentally, he can't take it any other way. He can't help seeing it as a rejection, because of what he's been conditioned to be from 4 years old.
I'm wary of using posts from other forums to back up an opinion.
ReplyDeleteSometimes other forums have their own agenda that doesn't really match
up to the quality of an episode. Some of the forums you mentioned likely
hated everything about most of "The Man Who Would Be King," and likely
hated most of what Ben Edlund wrote for Cas.
***
Hiya! I know what you're saying. But I'm on one of those forums that Tessa posts to, and just wanted to say, you really can't say we have an "agenda" over there. In fact, it's a pretty lively mix of opinions. I for one am a big Cas fan as well as a huge Edlund fan. But we also have Sam girls and Dean girls and the rest. And a lot of us are getting a bit annoyed at this season.
I had a real mixed reaction to this episode, and I think one of my big gripes, as Tessa pointed out, is that it's a pale copy of Edlund's TMWWBK. This was a chance to finally drill down on some stuff, and a big one was finally finding out Metatron's true motivation, which to me at least has always been a bit elusive. I wanted to see something in his past, a reason why he had built up such resentment against the other angels. This was a great opportunity: he had mentioned at one point that he especially disliked the archangels, and here was Gabriel popping up for an episode. But instead we got Metatron prattling on about writing? It was kinda bizarre. After Man Who Would Be King, I didn't like what Cas was doing, but I darned well understood why he felt driven to do it. After this episode, well, Metatron's still a cipher. An annoying cipher, but a cipher nonetheless.
I'm glad to hear that. I wasn't really speaking of IMDB, but I apologize if you took it that way.
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of forums have different opinions, but ultimately I feel like a certain group of fans will mostly populate a certain place. It's almost instinctual. Cas fans are at some boards. Dean fans at some boards. I'd say there are a lot of Sam fans here. Of course some boards do have a mix, so I'm sure the IMDB forums do too, but I feel like ultimately most SPN forums have a distinct tone.
I intensely disliked much of season 5. And when I go and read the TWOP forums (while they're still around) for season 5, I see posts that tear the show to pieces for much of what I disliked. Yet, if I was going to write season 5 reviews, I wouldn't cite TWOP posts to reinforce my opinion, just because I feel like a forum has a certain culture that is its own, on its own terms, and doesn't necessarily translate to a review.
I had a real mixed reaction to this episode, and I think one of my big gripes, as Tessa pointed out, is that it's a pale copy of Edlund's TMWWBK.
I guess to me the only real similarity is that they had someone narrating. I thought of Chuck more than Cas, because Chuck was also a narrator, ultimately an impartial one, whereas Metatron is very biased, and very disturbed. I can see some similarities now, when I read your post, but at the time I didn't think of Edlund once, or feel that Robbie Thompson was disparaging Edlund.
I do agree that Metatron needs more motivation if they are going to show him more often. He works best as a barely seen menace whose motives are unclear and whose presence is short but brutal. When he starts talking, and talking, then I lose interest.
The book he burned was Tall Tales, which was the first Trickster episode. You could look at the book being burned as symbolic, they made the Trickster into Gabriel essentially destroying the canon of the character set-up in that episode.
ReplyDeleteThat's a good thought. I hadn't considered it, but yes. It's funny because a lot of fans don't use that when they talk about destroying canon (personally I preferred Gabriel as The Trickster), because they didn't mind the change. Yet it was a huge retcon.
ReplyDeleteOther than Metatron talking to the camera (which was later revealed to be Castiel), it was nothing like TMWWBK, like at all. That episode was about Castiel telling his side of what happened, this episode is really about Metatron trying to get Castiel to work with him.
ReplyDeleteThe angel stuff getting rewritten goes back to season 4 actually.
ReplyDeleteFirst it was the glowing smoke that entered bodies like demons did, then they stole each other’s graces.
ReplyDeleteThat was obviously done because it makes for a better visual than a beam of light. It's not the first time the show has done something like this, they did it with the look of demons in season 1.
now you can trap them inside a symbol, like a Devil’s Trap? Where did that come from, and if it existed (which Cas would have known about) why did the boys keep bothering with oil and fire all this time?
I would assume they got it from Kevin's notes from the angel tablet, in which case Castiel wouldn't be aware of it. Let's face it, they needed a cheap way to keep Gadreel a prison, and CG fire isn't cheap.
Oh, no offense taken! I do know what you're talking about, and I tend to avoid forums at are too attached to one viewpoint. As a Cas fan, I have to steer clear places where they hate on Cas, but I also dislike forums that snark on Sam too much for my liking (one reason I never posted to TWOP).
ReplyDeleteMy take was that Robbie wasn't so much disparaging Edlund as trying to write like him. And I don't think that's his strength. But, yeah, I agree, we either need to see a lot more of Metatron (and get some grounding on why he's doing what he's doing) or a lot less. This one seemed to be mostly wheel-spinning. "I'm the villain because Cas needs something to do" kind of doesn't cut it. At least for me: I realize some people really loved this episode. I liked aspects of it, but this storyline just strikes me as kind of weak.
Who cares if Dean and Cas didn't reunite in this episode? The writers have their own plans for the characters which involve them in their own story arcs.
ReplyDeleteHi Peter,
ReplyDeleteI have to run out so I'll reply to your longer posts later. Just wanted to say I didn't use those quotes to back up my opinion. I used two distinctly different forums (IMDB and spn-gossip) which are opposed in every way and posted similar quotes from them. My intention was to show others what I saw, that some of the problems with the show have become so obvious they pop up on two opposite poles. I wouldn't make any comments about either forum (although I'm an active member of IMDB, and used those quotes with permission.) But my intention definitely wasn't to point and say, "Hey, look how people from all these forums agree with me."
I would assume they got it from Kevin's notes from the angel tablet, in which case Castiel wouldn't be aware of it. Let's face it, they needed a cheap way to keep Gadreel a prison, and CG fire isn't cheap.
ReplyDeleteThey could've explained it though, like they did with the angel banishing sigil. A quick shot of Sam and Dean going over Kevin's notes while chatting about trapping angels would have done the trick. What ruffles my feathers is that these days, the writers act like everything goes. They don't bother to writer within the boundaries of established mythology and we have to scramble our brains trying to find an excuse for the things they write to fit their scripts.
Of course they have. However, it's not always the best plan and sometimes results in badly developed story arcs that go nowhere. Having Cas and Dean reunite would have made for a better discovery scene for the Mark of Cain, leading to Cas getting more involved with the brothers and the ongoing storyline. I think it goes without saying that at this point in the show pulling all the characters together onto one unified plot that marches toward the end is a better idea than having them do things separately. Of course opinions differ.
ReplyDeleteThank you for clarifying. I wasn't sure what you meant. I apologize for the confusion. I have gone to IMDB a few times (I don't go to spn gossip very often as the tone of the board is not for me and it often goes into personal talk about the actors) but not enough to see they were that disparate in their opinions.
ReplyDeleteRemember this ep was up against The Agent of SHIELD, so I feel sure that could cause the ratings drop. Next week SHIELD will be back at its regular time.
ReplyDeleteI do think that's part of it. Of course it could be at this rating or lower next week, especially if people don't think the episode is important to the story. I don't know. I think it might get .8-.9. But SPN did have new, tough competition this week, and thanks for pointing it out.
ReplyDeleteThat is my point: Metatron THINKS he is writing a wonderful story which he comes out as GOD but he's not because writers are not always actually aware of what they are really saying.
ReplyDeleteI agree. The Metatron story has never done a lot for me. I appreciate the idea of Metatron (chaos, madness, spite - a spoiled child), but I don't think he works as a villain and I don't think he should be written as one. I prefer thinking of him as a very evil Mr. Mysxpikalik, or however you spell it, from the old Superman comics.
ReplyDeleteI also think Robbie Thompson sometimes gets too lost in his own cleverness and meta. It's one of the reasons I don't love him as many do, although I do think he's a good writer and has some original flourishes. I generally have liked the work from Robert Berens and Adam Glass (surprisingly) this season, and Andrew Dabb. But I know Thompson is more of the fandom favorite.
Peter, thank you for saying this I agree 100%.
ReplyDeleteWhat Dean WANTS is to protect other people. He has said from like the first/ second episodes of the show was that he was a freak, his life was screwed the moment YED attacked his family. He KNOWS what's out there. He can NEVER have a "normal" life because he can never not know what he knows. The only thing that gives worth to his life is saving others. He expects to die bloody and with a gun in his hand.
I guess if he wanted anything else for himself he would want to be an amnesiac and forget EVERYTHING his life has taught him and then have a family. But he wouldn't even wish for that because he would know that something supernatural could come and take it all away at any moment. He really is stuck in a loop, he has no self-worth in himself, his only worth is saving others, he cannot even want to not know what he knows.
Also forgot to mention that I think most of the good writers have left the show. So even if Carver was replaced with a better producer, it might not be enough. The good writing team the show started with has probably moved on to other projects leaving the bottom-of-the-barrel writers to carry the show forward.
ReplyDeleteLastly it seems like these newer writers didn't do enough to keep up with the shows mythology and lore which would explain all the plotholes and inconsistencies we get these days. Same happened to Smallville in it's later seasons.
Lastly it seems like these newer writers didn't do enough to keep up with the shows mythology and lore which would explain all the plotholes and inconsistencies we get these days.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's that lore and mythology isn't kept up as much as it's Kripke set a precedent in seasons 4 and 5 of rewriting whatever mythology and lore you wanted to rewrite, and that's been true ever since.
As for the good writers - to be honest I don't think the show ever had a ton of great writers. I think that they were better in the first 4 seasons, but from early on it was mostly a few standouts (I'd say Raelle Tucker + Sera Gamble [other than Dean's djinn episode I didn't like Tucker's solo work, and I didn't like most of Gamble's solo work], Edlund, Carver). People like John Shibhan, Cathryn Humphris, a lot of Dabb + Loflin stuff (I prefer Dabb on his own), even Kripke himself, is just not very good. They were certainly better than the likes of Jenny Klein and Ross-Leming/Buckner, but they weren't good.
The show has always worked best based on the performances and sometimes the central idea, on individual scenes and moments.
What the show is missing, for me, is focus, and better energy and pacing. That's why the first 3 seasons, especially the first 2 seasons, are the best for me. After that, everything just started grinding down.
But still, I think Thompson, Robert Berens, Adam Glass (this season anyway) and Dabb are pretty decent writers. I just want a few more decent writers.
I don't think that's controversial. Gamble was always popular with some fans, and then now that she's gone, and someone else is having to deal with the problems she dealt with (I'd say a lot of that is on Singer), they're the new Gamble. The main difference for me is that I actually recognize Dean again, although the writing for Sam is poor.
ReplyDeleteI think unless Singer moves on to another show some things may never change.
I still really like the show and want it to succeed but they really need to start moving the plot forward again. Carver says he has a 3-year plan and we are almost 2 years into that plan and I still don't have any idea what his "plan" is. Everything story wise seems to just be spinning in circles at this point. An endless loop as if the Trickster himself is writing the story now...
ReplyDeleteI mostly see the plan with Dean. Cas and Sam, I really don't. I think some of the ideas worked, some, the execution was a mess. I think there's a lot of stuff that looked good on paper but they should have thought more about how it would be onscreen.
ReplyDeleteI do think they need to have better pacing and a more obvious plot. Most of the conflicts are internal, and I kind of like that, but if they're internal, we should get more focus on that and less villains, because when the villains disappear for a long period of time, then fans say, "Nothing is happening!"
So if you want to have internal conflict, maybe do that with more MOTW episodes and less villains.
Come on. I just had to jump in because IMDB is generally known as the MOST Dean-centered site out there. I'm a Sam girl who would never ever post because the posters there are definitely attached to one viewpoint, and his name is Dean. These days, the Sam "snark" is worse at IMDB than at TWOP, in my opinion. Those poor Sam girls can only post in that one thread dedicated to Sam and even there they regularly get jumped on.
ReplyDeleteTessa, I think that your reviews are negatively influenced by spending so much time there. Your comment about Sam not trading his life for Dean for example reflects the beliefs at IMBD, totally disregarding what Sam really said, like Nick mentioned out there. Away from IMBD, people actually think that it's obvious that Sam cares about Dean and will do everything he can to save him, short of starting WW3 or tricking him and lying afterwards.
If Bloodlines is ordered to series I think Supernatural will lose Singer to the spinoff; if so, hopefully he takes the Nep Duo will him to make up all the 'canon' they want.
ReplyDeleteA part of me feels like Singer will be there to the end, but if he and that duo go, I think it would be a breath of fresh air.
ReplyDeleteYep. This. I'm still wondering if/when the brothers gave Cas the materials that Gadreel obtained for the "Horn of Gabriel" spell that gathered the angels to Cas's motel door at the end of the episode.
ReplyDeleteGood review, Tessa. The only I can make all the disparate parts of the episode come together (except Sam may as well not have been in the episode) is to consider there's a lot more to the episode. That is more to the episode concerning Dean, Cas, Gadreel and Metatron.
Now that Cas has his 'flock' he will have to think of a way NOT to have them killed by Metatron - a 'loophole' - like he did in The Monster at the End of the Book.
I agree you completely on this point. The writers are not working within the established mythology and they have set no boundaries for new mythology (if that is what they are attempting to do). The result is that the story can go all over the place, characterization is hit or miss, sub-text cannot be trusted, and the individual writers can do anything they want because nobody, including the viewers, have any rules to follow. It causes complete confusion. I honestly thought that was what Thompson was trying to tell the viewers: We're the writers, we right the stories, and you viewers can give it any interpretation (meaning) you want.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I am not a Thompson or a Glass fan. Very briefly, I don't like Thompson's dialogue. I don't like Glass' tendency for 'writer insert,' and I don't like either of their tendency to write more for support characters than for the Winchesters.
ReplyDeleteI think you have a good point about both of those. I do think their material can vary. For instance, I thought Mother's Little Helper had some awesome stuff for Sam. Way better than I would have expected from Glass. And, although I know some fans felt that Bad Boys was writer insert replacing Dean, and it ignored canon, I was so much happier with that interpretation of Dean than the trashy and miserable writing they had in After School Special. So I think it's a mixed bag. I think Robbie Thompson can be a great writer but I think he's become a little bit, for lack of a better word, precious, in his material.
ReplyDeleteYou know, I have read through most of the comments and it's all circular. That is what happens when the story is not clear, there are no parameters set within which to tell the story or for the mythology used.
ReplyDeleteAs for the episode, I will say that I agree with most of it. We are almost done with the season and I do not know what Metatron's goal is. It doesn't matter whether he is writing a story or not. What matters is what is the point of what he is doing.
If he is writing a story, is he just now trying to fill up his cast of characters? Is that why he was trying to manipulate Cas? What happens if his "ending" works out as he plans? Is he trying to kill off the angels against him and then pick and choose which angels he will populate Heaven with? If so, won't he just become bored and want to write another story? Does he have any interest in the Wiinchesters? It doesn't appear so at this late date in the game. If he does, then how? If he does not, then what why is he a character in the season, or why are the Winchesters included in the season? I assume that Metatron wants to be the new God in Heaven, and then what? How are the Winchesters connected to that?
Why is Metatron, a scribe, so powerful? Is he being fueled by the human souls in Heaven, or can he just be this powerful because he is writing his own story and makes himself that way? That makes no sense at all. Is he getting powers from the angel tablet? If so, please tell me show -- or better yet, show me in some way.
As for Gabriel, I like Richard Speight, but bringing him back was cheap fan service. The one problem I have with the character is that Gabriel and Loki are played exactly the same way, and I feel there should be some slight difference in the character since Gabriel was just playing at being Loki. That said, I would not have minded if he had really been there to be the angel leader in taking on Metatron.
All I am going to say about Cas is that I am not a big fan. I love the Dean/Cas scenes together, but that is the only time the character works for me. I liked his phone call with Dean and I liked that he recognized something was wrong with Dean. Other than that, I am sick of the dragging angel story and wished it would go away permanently, but I don't want to see Cas as a third Winchester riding in the back seat of the Impala every episode either.
Gadreel was the only character that left me curious. I wished we would see more of him and so much less of Metatron. My thoughts on Metatron is that he isn't evil, scary, or charming. He's just a slimy character that I will be very happy to see go away and; for once, please show, don't feel the need to bring the character back next season.
We are almost done with the season and I classify it in the Big Mess category.
Sam also said he wanted to die; that he was ready to die. If he is so ticked off about the possession and the lying that was done to save his life, why didn't he off himself once Gad was gone instead of dispossess Dean as a brother, yet stay with him so that he could achieve...what? Killing Gadreel will make up for him being alive and for what he's so ticked off at Dean for?
ReplyDeleteI have felt for years and years now that the "brother's bond" is the biggest myth the show has ever promoted.
Actually, I thought Sam had the angel blade in his hand, hit Gad with it, and was going to kill Gadreel and that is when Dean stepped in, because they needed to interrogate him.
ReplyDeleteKripke said he had a five year, but going by the first three years could predict angels and the Apocalypse? And the answer would be no, because three years in there was no plans to introduce angels.
ReplyDelete@Metatron
ReplyDeleteI'd say his god-complex is pretty consistent with real world mythologies. In a lot of mythological stories, no matter how atrociously a god acts or how immoral his acts are by any sane and rational standards - within the context of the story he is treated as the "hero" or the "good guy" because he is a god and anyone opposing him is villain for the simple reason that they are opposing him.
Remember last season when Crowley wanted the tablet....
ReplyDeleteThe Winchesters wanted a demon and they thought that demons were killing all those people - so they rushed to catch themselves one. With the cupcake girl, they expected a trap and with Sarah, they laid a few. And when they had a breather, they made a plan to catch Crowley.
Except, Sam has already shown that he is unwilling to cross lines to save Dean when he left his brother in Purgatory. Whether or not that is a good thing is up for debate.
ReplyDeleteSam never said he wanted to die - he said he was ready for it. Two very different things.
ReplyDeleteThere wouldn't be much point in Sam killing himself because Dean would just bring him back. There would, of course, be consequences to that, and this is what Sam wants to avoid.
ReplyDeleteWhen did he dispossess Dean as a brother? Was it when he said 'If you want to be brothers'? Why is that considered dispossession or turning his back on the brotherhood? Are we going to discuss the numerous amount of times that Dean turned his back on his brother and their brotherhood or is it a case that they don't matter at all because it was Dean that did it.
Perhaps Sam stays with Dean because he loves his brother and wants their relationship to work. However, blindly accepting what Dean does and not standing up for himself will not make their relationship work. Sam wants to fix the relationship, Dean just wants the same old same old.
Kevin asked him to kill Gadreel. Setting boundaries with Dean might help with what he's 'ticked off at Dean for'.
You're right about the myth of the 'brother's bond' though.
That's even worse. Dean suddenly disappears without a trace and Sam doesn't even bother to find out what happened? He just takes the demon-king's word for it?
ReplyDelete" and to me what Sam said meant he wouldn't trade his life for Dean"
ReplyDeleteProbably because the last thing Dean wants is Sam trading his life for his. It's remarkable how doing what Dean wants is presented as Sam not caring.
You know, I have read through most of the comments and it's all circular. That is what happens when the story is not clear, there are no parameters set within which to tell the story or for the mythology used.
ReplyDeleteI think that's just Internet discussion in general. I rarely see a show that doesn't have circular arguments and debates. Even the alleged glory days of SPN had endless debates over the same one or two topics.
The one problem I have with the character is that Gabriel and Loki are played exactly the same way, and I feel there should be some slight difference in the character since Gabriel was just playing at being Loki.
I thought RSJ always played The Trickster with more of a dark humor and malice, whereas Gabriel, that was still there, but he had more sorrow and vulnerability.
With that said, I agree that his return was mostly fanservice. I thought it worked, and the door was left open for a more substantive return, but I sure wish that characters who were royally screwed over but weren't fan favorites, like Anna, got that type of return.
I'd say this was even more of an example of the clusterfuck of angel mythology.
ReplyDeleteFirst, Cas needs heaven's permission to heal people (like when Dean was beaten up by Alastair). Then, he can't heal Bobby when he is cut off from heaven. But lately, no matter what the situation with heaven, angels seem to be able to heal and bring back the dead as and when they want. And yet, for some reason, Dean doesn't try to get Castiel to bring Kevin back once Gadreel had killed him. Also, in the alternate future, Cas said that once heaven retreated, he gradually lost his powers and became human. So, canonically, the thing that makes most sense is that angels who are connected to heaven - those who can come and go as they please - can use the full extent of their powers and recharge as they wish. Once they get thrown out, they have to judiciously use what they have until they run out.
As for Gadreel:
1. Demons and reapers are not exactly "invulnerable". Unlike angels, the Winchesters can take demons on in a fight - & I'm not touching the reapers here.
The other two reasons might work. Though, I'm still not sure why Dean, after beating him unconscious, would drag him out of the nice, protective sigil and into a corner.
It's a tad more complex than that. Sam said that he imploded, that he just drove around, presumably for days or months on end with all these things rolling around in his head, and then he hit a dog. Perhaps Sam was so messed up (and who wouldn't be considering the cumulative effect of all that he had been through at that stage) that he convinced himself that Dean was dead. That's the problem on a show when people get brought back from the dead with such ease, no-one is ever really dead and gone until you believe they are and you decide to not bring them back.
ReplyDeleteIt's also the problem when you've the ability to do whatever you want to get whatever you want. How far should Sam have gone to 'look'? I'm assuming a quick, cursory glance around the building wouldn't have sufficed so should he have started dealing in black magic, white magic, demon deals, angels deals etc in order to 'look'?
If Crowley told Sam that Dean was alive and well then should Sam have believed him? What if an angel told Sam that Dean was dead, should he have believed him/her? In other words, who can you trust to tell you the truth when you've been lied to (and manipulated for a purpose) your entire life? What if going gung-ho to find Dean was what Crowley wanted?
Exactly what was rolling around in his head? I thought the implosion was because he thought Dean was dead and there was no reason for him to think that - except for the word of a lying liar who lies.
ReplyDeleteEven if, for some reason, Sam had a nervous breakdown in the immediate aftermath - which we have not seen - he was mentally stable long before Dean got back. He could've done a lot of things to figure out what happened to Dean. He could've researched Kevin's notes on the Leviathan weapon. He could've tried to save Kevin and asked him for more details (something he should've done anyway). He could've done some research - say, in the Campbell library. He could've talked to psychics or tried contacting angels - after all, Cas went missing too. Also, prophets are the responsibility of angels - so bringing them in then would've been a good idea.
What could be going through his head? Things like 'Is Dean dead, is he not dead, what should I do, what should I not do, who do I contact, are they genuine (ie psychic), would they know anything, would they lie to me, should I contact someone else, where should I start to look, should I start on earth, in heaven, in hell, in Purgatory (and why would Dean be in Purgatory. Purgatory was for monsters. So its possible Sam thought going through Kevin's notes could have been an absolute waste of time, time that could have been spent doing something that might be more successful, I don't know, maybe interrogating a demon. And regardless of what that demon tells him Sam still won't know if it's the truth.), how far should I go to find him? Should I start using demon blood again, torture a few souls/angels/demons, what if that is what Crowley wants? Should I find an archangel and make a deal for Michael/Lucifer in exchange for Dean. Should I look for Kevin first instead of Dean?'
ReplyDeleteThere are umpteen things that Sam could have done, that's the problem when what you have access to is limitless. Where do you start? Like I said; heaven, hell, earth, Purgatory. Jeez, outer space! How do you decide which one to start with? Should he have concentrated on hell, because that's Crowleys domain, what if he was wrong? Should he have focused on heaven because Castiel was with him and he's an angel? You jumped straight onto Purgatory but why focus on that one? If the audience hadn't seen the last show in season 8, then very few of us would have guessed Purgatory.
And demons will often tell the truth if they think it would hurt more. Why would Crowley keep Dean alive? He has been a thorn in Crowley's side for years now.
Mental stability isn't something that you can just turn on and turn off at the drop of a hat. A hell of a lot had happened to Sam prior to that that he never had the time to deal with, the loss of Dean added to that, hence the breakdown. Sam might have been coping better before Dean got back but there's nothing to say that he was perfectly fine when Dean got back. However, hypothetical speaking, lets say Sam got over his breakdown easily. Should he then have been stable enough to look for Dean? Months had passed at this stage and no sight nor sound from Dean or Castiel. Would this have also played into Sam's belief that Dean was dead. If he was alive then Dean or Castiel would have tried to contact him, there would have been something. Instead there was nothing.
Just because we didn't see a breakdown doesn't mean that it didn't happen. It was acknowledged on screen more than once. We didn't see Dean crying in the corner at the loss of Sam or collecting those hundreds of books either but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Okay, so maybe I wasn't done with my two cents. I have a few more gripes I want to get in.
ReplyDeleteShower Scene - That was extremely disappointing.
Supernatural does not do gratuitous fanservice. Okay, that's fine. While on other CW shows, everyone is working out shirtless or fighting shirtless or getting tied up shirtless or having simulated sex with faux-nudity every other episode - on Supernatural you have to wait seasons for a little fanservice form the cast.
Which is okay. As standards go, Supernatural can have better ones, but they've apparently chosen this one and they stick to it. Probably the only one they stick to.
But the shower scene here was plot-relevant - I think. It was supposed to represent Dean's struggle with the effects of the MoC or something - I'm not sure. But it was there and the least they could've done is gotten some decent fanservice out of it. Would it have killed them to zoom out just a little, instead keeping the camera focused on his face and upper shoulders? The whole thing felt like such a terrible waste.
Pointless Intrigue - So, Sam is rushing back after hearing Metatron out, desperately trying to call Dean and Dean strides purposefully towards their prisoner - seemingly intent killing him. Sam rushes in and finds Gadreel missing, blood everywhere, with Dean slumped against the corner.
What has happened? Did Dean kill Gadreel? Did they lose their bargaining chip against Metatron? Do they now have to come up with another plan to save Cas? Or is it something else? Did Gadreel escape? Has he hurt Dean? Is Dean okay? Or is it possible that Dean had some kind of epiphany about Gadreel? That Dean - no stranger to self-loathing and death-wishes - figured out a way to get through to the fallen angel?
For all the expectations this scene setup - with just few establishing shots and no dialogue - the payoff was woefully pathetic. Those two might as well have been playing Jenga when Sam came it. I enjoy intriguing setups like this one, but when they end up leading nowhere, the whole thing just seems - pointless.
Winchester Traps - Most of the time, the traps these guys setup are pretty great. There is the let-the-demon-follow-you trap (Meg and Ruby), the I-know-where-you-will-ambush-me trap (Raphael), the double-bluff they use against the crossroads demon - great ones. Then there is my personal favorite - egging-Eve-after-drinking-her-poison trap.
The one here was not a good one. They should've expected that Metatron was watching. Putting on a simple ring of oil - that was poorly done. Even if they didn't know all his tricks like blowing off the holy fire, they should've prepared better for the ambush. Atleast, based on their past record.
You make Sam sound like a hysterical 13-year old girl. He is a hunter, for crying out loud. And this isn't the first time Dean has gone "missing - presumed dead". Sam has been able to keep a level head and start looking before - why not this time? And while there may be many things he could do - he would, normally, start with the most obvious choices.
ReplyDeleteFirst option - Dean disappeared while dealing with Leviathan's - so capture a few of them and start torturing them for information. Get as much info as you can and see if there is any consistency - if there is anything there that could be useful.
Second option - If the first one doesn't pan out, go after Kevin and the tablet. After all, that's where they got the weapon to begin with.
Third option - Try contacting angels. And if you tell them about the prophet, they'd likely answer.
Trying out these three in order would've been a good start. If nothing else, if all three sources led him to the same conclusion - that Dean was dead - then he would have had a good excuse to stop looking.
That is how an in-character Sam acts. He can keep a level head and try to figure out a way to find Dean even when Lucifer is screaming in his ear. And he was certainly better off at the end of the season than he was in the middle of it before Castiel took on his "affliction" from hell. If he could focus on looking for Dean then, he could've focused now.
However, if your assessment is correct and Sam did not look for Dean because he, all of a sudden, turned into a hysterical teenager, incapable of prioritizing or even thinking straight - well, then the character has been done a great disservice, the likes of which cannot be corrected.
Oh-oh - one more gripe.
ReplyDeleteWhy exactly did Metatron think that Gabriel was good at teaching lessons?
He didn't teach any lessons in Tall Tales - he killed two people and traumatized a third.
In Mystery Spot, he killed another innocent man and tried teaching Sam to let his brother go - a lesson that was not learned.
And again, he killed another guy in Changing Channels before trying to teach the Winchesters a lesson about playing their roles and they ended up teaching him about standing up to his family.
A lesson that ultimately resulted in him siding with humanity and sort-of made up for all the innocent people he'd killed over the years for laughs for which he continued to show no remorse.
So, apart from being popular among fans, what exactly makes him such a good teacher?
I personally loved the episode. I think that this is my first time reading a Gripe review, and although you didn't enjoy the episode, I enjoyed reading your thoughts. Supernatural is a multi-genre show, it is a horror show as much as it is a psychological one, but it is also a philosophical show! This episode reminded me of chess. All throughout this season, the writers selected the chess pieces, polished them and set them up on the board. In this episode they both decided their strategy and started building it up via the chess pieces (the characters). They chose a method that has been, done before, it might not have been perfected like that of Edlunds or Kripke, but it was still good and interesting to watch. The script was not poetic or terrifying, but it was philosophical, it was strategic, it voiced the viewers, wonders and current problems with the show. Now all I wish is that we see the themes of this episode controlling the episodes to come. I want to have Metratrons script running through my head, even when he is not in the episode. I want to see them like puppets going through the motions, I want to question wether their choices are really theirs or Metatrons. They did this last season, with Naomi and Castiel, and it worked......it was CHILLING.
ReplyDeleteSo, someone who has a mental breakdown = hysterical 13 year old girl for you. Nice! That sort of attitude is why I'm so glad they didn't show the breakdown on screen.
ReplyDeleteThe last time Dean 'went missing' Sam had something to work with. When Dean was 'presumed dead' at the end of Season 3, Sam went psycho trying to get him back which culminated in the Apocalypse. Would that be preferable to you? Would that show you how much Sam 'cares'?
The most obvious choice would be Crowley, whose plan they were following. Crowley told Sam that he was now completely on his own. And how much time should he commit to that before going after Kevin and the tablet? Would a week, a month suffice? A year, two? What if Sam tortured a hundred Leviathans or demons (and their vessels) and got nothing, but he would have gotten something if he tortured on more. Should he keep torturing until he got the answer he wanted, regardless of whether or not it was true?
An 'in-character- Sam is not a Sam who had a breakdown. Robot Sam, devoid of emotion, is the type of Sam who would be able to logically categorise all the things that you say he should have done. What a pity Sam is just a human. If I can put that on another character, an 'in-character' Dean would have contacted Bobby or summoned Castiel or gone after a demon for information when Sam was in the Cage, why didn't he?
Look, Martin Anders, I'll stick to my belief that Sam had a very human breakdown when Dean disappeared which left him in such a mess. He believed that Dean was dead and so adhered to his wishes and didn't try and bring him back. I'm not sure what it is that you believe about Sam that throws light on his words and actions in that time.
I'm glad they didn't show Sam's hysterical breakdown on the Show too - because then, it wouldn't simply be a part of your imagination.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, I would've preferred the psycho, desperate Sam of post-season 3. Or better still, the psycho, obsessed Sam of Mystery Spot. That would've shown me how much Sam cares. Because the way they handled season 8, it seemed as if he didn't care at all - and that is OOC.
And no, Crowley is not the obvious choice because they were not following his plan. He was no more knowledgeable about the Leviathans than the rest, he had no deep insight into the working of the anti-Dick weapon and so there is little reason to think that he'd know anything about its side-effects.
Also, Sam is quite capable of multi-tasking and prioritizing - at the end of the season, Crowley had absconded with Kevin - so, until he got a whiff of demonic activity, he could go after the Leviathans. There was no need for a specific time limit and as it turned out, Kevin wasn't helpless either.
As for torturing Leviathans, he just had to do that until he got a clear picture of what they know. The number would've been up to Sam's judgment. If he got the same answer everywhere - that they don't know, then he'd have to move on to option two - even if that wasn't the answer he wanted.
And robot!Sam is not in-character. That's an explicitly stated aberration that lasted half a season. You know how I know that? Because the biggest clue that Sam was missing his soul was that "he wasn't acting like himself".
The in-character Sam is the guy who obsessively hunted the Trickster for six months. Who got drunk and tried to make a deal for his brother. Who let his hell-memories in to wake up and help his brother and who later accepted the Satan in his head to do the same. In short, the in-character Sam is a guy who cares about his brother so much, that he would never simply assume that Dean was dead and let it go.
And yes, you can believe Sam had a breakdown if you want and you can believe that Amelia was a witch who hexed him - neither is consistent with Sam's character.
Believing Dean to be dead without any evidence makes Sam look like an idiot. Not trying to even confirm any of it makes him look callous. And a nervous breakdown of the kind you suggest makes him look weak. Also, being rational enough to respect Dean's wishes while being in a stupidity spiral of taking Crowley at his word makes him look inconsistent. And the showrunners not shedding any light on his actions during the gap and acting as if what he did was in-character makes me feel sorry for the character.
And yes, Dean not actively looking for Sam was OOC as well. It'd make sense that he wouldn't go to Bobby or Castiel if he thought they'd try to dissuade him (and argue that he should respect Sam's wishes) - but otherwise, I fully expected him to be doing more that looking at some books.
If that is the case then PLEASE pickup Bloodlines. I was hoping if Revolution was not renewed, maybe Kripke would come back..I know wishful thinking and I love Revolution.
ReplyDeleteIn Time After Time, Dean disappeared and Sam looked for him, getting Jody to help. Season 8 Sam was so out of character that I don't want to watch that season again. I did not even like Sam last season, he was nothing like the SPN Sam of 7 years. His rant in the church was like a teenager and I was screaming at the TV...ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS..poor baby so mistreated. Last season was so bad that is makes this year seem good and I have lowered my expectations for the show and now just enjoy the actors and hope for a decent ep.
ReplyDeleteThank you Peter for phrasing exactly my take on Dean and Sam.
ReplyDeleteDean is who he is and that just won't change, because all he ever was taught is:
1.You know what lurks out there, go fight it, protect those who are unaware.
2. Protect Sam, no matter what.
All Dean heard Sam saying was, that Dean failed on both.
And now we have a really dangerous Dean on our hands: he thinks he has nothing left to loose, so all that is left is go out in a big bang....killing Abaddon.
Sam also still is who he always was, he wants out of the hunter life, he wants a normal life, but all he ends up with is being shown over and over again, that he can only be 2 things in life:
1. A hunter who protects those who can't do it themselves.
2. Deans brother with all good and bad that entails.
He still wants to fight that on some level, but like Dean he simply has no chance, no other way, that is his life.
That was what he wanted to tell Dean, but for someone who was a pre-law he didn't find the right words to get to Dean, he only hurt him.
In the end what keeps the grounded is that they have each other. Of course the fight, bitch and do all the stuff siblings do to each other, but together they are truly invincible.
Now if they only would both come to this conclusion....*sigh*
No lesson was learned and Sam let Dean go and stay in Purgatory for a year.
ReplyDeleteSam said he imploded so it’s not part of my imagination. And hysterics wouldn’t come into it (so don’t worry, he wouldn’t have acted like a 13 year old girl). Perhaps you should do some research on the subject because you'd realise that breakdown are not stereotypically crying and rocking in the corner etc. People can be an absolute mess and be clueless about how to act etc on the inside while on the surface acting totally fine.
ReplyDeleteTo revisit the' psycho, desperate, do anything to bring his brother back from the
dead Sam' would be a Sam who has not learned a single lesson from the past.
That would be OCC of him. And not doing what Dean wanted him to do (or didn't want him to do, who knows at this stage) doesn't mean that he didn't care.
No, Kevin wasn’t helpless and was probably better off without the interference of the Winchesters. And yes, Sam is quite capable of multi-tasking and prioritising. He’s also quite capable of doing terrible things for his brother. Perhaps he was
fearful of going down that route again.
Crowley is just as much, if not a more obvious, choice than the Leviathans. He knew what was going on and he has his fingers in a lot more pies than the Leviathans had. He's also had plenty of past experience in manipulating the Winchesters into doing what he wants.
In relation to torturing the Leviathans, and if they know nothing wouldn’t it have been a tremendous waste of valuable time? And as you said there, ‘the answer he wanted’. It doesn’t have to be the truth, it just has to be what Sam wants to hear.
Robot Sam seems to be what you want. You expect Sam, in the aftermath of all that happened to him, in the aftermath of Dean’s disappearance, to be able to sit
down and logically go through different scenarios. That would be quite emotionless, and Sam is not emotionless.
The Sam who obsessively hunted the Trickster etc is the Sam before Dean went to hell, before the hellucinations, before the Cage etc. That Sam is long gone. He’s learned and he’s grown. He won’t put what he wants first, and certainly not before the welfare of others. It’s remarkable though, Sam has done all the things you mentioned for his brother yet people are so quick to believe ‘Sam doesn’t care’! Perhaps Dean believes Sam doesn't care because he doesn't know about most of these things either. Dean really should go and read Chucks books. He’d learn a hell of a lot.
Sam had a breakdown of sorts during Mystery Spot, it’s not entirely out of character. No idea where you got the idea that Amelia is a witch from.
So does believing that Mrs Tran was dead without any evidence make Dean
look like an idiot and not trying to confirm any of it make him look callous? It's strange how the show hasn't touched that (and probably never will).
A nervous breakdown (or implosion as he called it) would not make him look weak, it would make him look human. Every human has a breaking point, that was Sam's.
It all goes back to believing Dean was dead. If you have the ability to bring someone back from the dead then no one is really dead. So someone has to decide 'Stop, he's really gone'. Sam did.
So Dean wouldn’t go to Bobby or Castiel because they might tell him something he didn’t want to hear? Dean at the end of season 5 was a Dean who, like Sam now, had learned an awful lot from his past experiences. And did Dean even look at those books? He just said he collected them. Imagine if he found something in a book that showed him how to get Sam out but would also release Michael and Lucifer. Then Dean would have to make the conscious decision as to whether or not he should go ahead (and free Sam, Lucifer and Michael) or leave him where he is (for the good of the world). Sometimes knowing is far worse than not knowing.
In Time After Time they were working a case. They had something to go on. Do you think that Sam should have hauled Jody back in to help him look for Dean. He'd have had to start by teaching her Latin and other ancient languages, self defense, loads of exorcism rituals etc, so as to be able to protect her while she's working with him. There would be a long time passed before they could even start looking for Dean.
ReplyDeleteIn relation to the 'rant in the church' where he was 'like a teenager', this was action. He wanted to show Dean that he 'wouldn't let him down again' (and Dean had made it perfectly clear that this is all Sam does). He's done the apologies in the past, he's done the atonement, he's done all he can to built trust but unfortunately, Deans 'What you should confess to' showed Sam that all the apologies, all the atonement etc meant nothing to Dean. He knew Dean wouldn't ever forgive him, wouldn't ever trust him .
However, Dean has to realise that the world does not revolve around him, that when people do things he doesn't want them to do or he disagrees with, it's not a slight on him, it's not a betrayal of him. People can exist independently of Dean. Sam went with Ruby to try and stop the Apocalypse. Did Dean really expect Sam to put his feelings over the lives of 6bn people? Dean seems incapable of looking at things from Sam's POV and because of that, for him, all Sam does is 'betray him'. That Dean is so insular in his thinking is what is bothering me hugely at the moment. He's meant to be the POV character but he never considers anyone elses POV.
Dean not being willing to change is partly the problem. His knows how his actions affect his brother but he won't change them. Deans actions make Sam less than a person, they make him an object. He's not Sam Winchester, he's 'Sammy', the baby brother who needs to be protected and kept in the dark etc. He's the baby brother who can't be trusted with the truth, with big decisions, to do the right thing, the one that these things must be done for. But Sam is not just a baby brother, so he needs to stop being treated like that is all he is. Sam is also an adult and a hunter. Dean needs to see that, and let Sam be that.
ReplyDeleteDean can get out of the life, so can Sam. We saw that with Ben and Lisa, and with Amelia. That doesn't mean to say they forget what they've learned or they're not aware of dangers, it just means that they don't go hunting danger down. Monsters will always be there but so will other hunters. The unfortunate thing is that in past seasons, Dean and Sam doing what they do, has very often made things worse and have to spend the following season cleaning things up. Nowadays, Sam and Dean are often the problem, not the solution, and they are the problem because of what they are willing to do for each other.
To be honest, comicfangirl, I'm not really bothered that Sam's words 'hurt' Dean. Often the truth does hurt (it hurts the most), that doesn't mean there is no truth in what Sam said. Dean sees himself as Sam's hero, but is he? You said above that Dean's role is to 'Protect Sam, no matter what'. Denying him his chance at peace and rest and dragging him back into a world of death, pain, loss and destruction is not protecting him. A determination to keep on hunting is not protecting him.
Add to that, there have been copious times in the past, last season in particular, where Dean has said and done things that hurt Sam, deliberately and otherwise. I don't think Sam's words should just be dismissed because Dean was hurt by them.
Aline, the truth of that "year-off" was that Sam ALSO left KEVIN who was their charge. He was a kid in 'WAY over his head.
ReplyDeleteIn the first conversation they had when Dean got back was "what about Kevin what about Meg (she also rode with them into RRE in Survival of the Fittest)" and here Sam had no answer. I can accept that Sam had a nervous breakdown after a year in which Bobby died and then Dean/Cas/Kevin/Meg disappeared before I can "buy" the this agreement nobody saw them make.
He did NOT see Dean die; he saw him disappear.
But he KNEW Kevin was alive.
And I thought Sam's response to finding out Kevin had escaped from Crowley was just weak. Oh yeah.
In that episode I actually felt rather than Sam's maturity we got to realize that Sam was not self-motivated. Dean said let's find Kevin. And they did.
But Kevin was in the way of Sam running away from Hunting.
But when Dean said, In or out. Halfway gets you killed. THEN Sam decided to hunt.
I just think that whole arc was written poorly (sort of like Metatron's novel!) because I can understand Sam wanting out. I can. But walking away from Kevin was the WORSE than Ruby and her demon blood for me.
When did Dean turn his back on Sam? I remember the break-up after s5e2 but Sam was the one who said I have to leave and Dean said ok; Sam was surprised.
ReplyDeleteSam left Dean s4e22 after he beat the ever-living crap out of him and then Bobby convinced Dean there was too much at stake for him not to try to get Sam back onto the right path.
S6e1 when he said he was staying the Lisa and Ben because now he had a commitment to them as well as to Sam, Sam HAD hunting partners, and Lisa and Ben had to be protected?
It's early, I may have sleep-blinkers on but really, when did Dean leave Sam?
I have been following this discussion and both of you are arguing your points very well.
ReplyDeleteBut Dean PRESUMED DEAD s3e16? PRESUMED? They knew it was the end of Dean's deal. Sam SAW Dean ripped to shreds by a hellhound (or two, I was never sure how many were at the door). Dean WAS dead.
And Sam tried to make a deal himself. Now he would never have succeeded in bringing his brother back so he was going to kill Lillith in revenge for Dean's death.
Maybe the rules changed when Metatron closed off heaven?
ReplyDeleteAlso didn't they have Sam/Gadreel locked into a chair in Road Trip? It seemed he was chained to a chair to me. Did they have an "angel-restraint" sigil like in this one?
I agree I don't know where it came from.
I agree with your idea on what Thompson was saying (writers are god) BUT I got that writers sometimes aren't aware of what message their writing actually conveys. As in Metatron can NEVER be a hero because he's an asshole.
He sees himself as a poor misunderstood guy who's been wronged by all the other mean angels. He has learned nothing from life and wants to spread the suffering.
However, while there are ways and means of bringing a person back from the dead then no-one is ever really dead. Like you said, Sam tried to make a deal. If it worked then Dean would not be dead so, for Sam, Dean was not really dead. When he realised that there was no bringing Dean back from the dead (at least by the way he was doing things, his knowledge was limited at that stage) he fixated on revenge, a path that almost led the world to burn.
ReplyDeleteThere's more than one way to turn your back on a person. There's emotionally as well as physically. I'm not too pushed about physically because when either Sam or Dean leave physically it's for a reason. Sam wanted to go to university, he wasn't just going to sit on his heels in the aftermath of finding out about what John said about him, he left to go kill Lilith etc. Dean left because he felt that he brought danger to people, he felt it best to stay with Ben and Lisa, he wanted to research the MoC (or go to the pub, either or).
ReplyDeleteHowever, emotionally, Dean has turned his back on his brother quite often. He threw the amulet in the bin, he believed an angel over him in season 4, picked a vampire over him in season 8, declared that Benny was more of a brother to him than Sam had ever been in season 8. On numerous occasions he hasn't trusted Sam, and hasn't been shy about telling him that. When Sam brings it up then Dean dismisses it as 'not being true'. However, it's true for Sam, it drives his actions, so it can't just be that easily dismissed.
They also poured a truckload of cement into the storm drain to trap the serial killer.
ReplyDeleteI thought the solution for Doc Benton was good. His parts would wear out and he would be powerless pretty quickly (didn't Dean stab him in the heart and he needed a new heart like immediately?).
Cutting up Abaddon into multiple parts and burying them in various places was a good plan and might've worked; she was trapped in that body by the magic bullet. But maybe she could possess another body?
So you're "right" that these solutions were for "human" time not "immortal" time. But we don't know HOW these being experience time. Trapped in that fridge still seemed tough to me.
I think Metatron's pretense of geniality doesn't work for me because he is so smarmy.
He reminds me of Uriah Heep; so self-effacing but with "plans" to get his revenge.
I think he just does not "see" that he is NOT a hero. NEVER can be a hero. The hero has to has some charisma in some way.
The rest of your discussion is so true; but for me you never get real finality in life. You never know how things turn out, not really. And asking things to make sense every step of the way is reasonable but not possible. Something always doesn't fit.
I see what you mean: Dean was dead but Sam believed he had the means to bring him back (his body was never burned). So he was not DEAD. Just sort of in hell for the time being. I don't agree BUT this is an arguable point.
ReplyDeleteThrowing the amulet away was a rejection of a God who did not care, not a rejection of Sam's love (he gave Dean the amulet because he realized Dean was the one who cared for him).
ReplyDeleteHe believed an angel in season 4: well, you got me. Castiel told Dean that Sam was doing something awful, Dean found him drinking demon blood (and the LOOK on Sam's face while he was slurping has STAYED with me) and put him in a panic room. BUT it turned out Cas was lying about other stuff. So Dean believed in Cas in what he could see Sam doing, and then managed to turn Cas to his own side in Lucifer Rising for the rest of the series (it seems).
Benny WAS an uncomplicated "brother" he did not have to feel conflicted about but he never picked him over Sam; he protected Benny FROM Sam because Sam was wrong about Benny.
BUT while I disagree with you in how these things shook out, I agree Sam might've felt differently. He might've felt rejected when Dean threw away the amulet. I just thought the entire conversation was about "dead-beat Dad/GOD" and not Sam (BUT I agree it might've meant something else and that would HURT).
i like supernatural. BUT i loved it when they were hunting thing, saving people, family business ;) or something like that. after the whole lucifer and death stuff i felt like there was really no more point. they dragged it with the leviathan and now the angels etc. they shouldve just done it how they did in the first couple of seasons and kept that layout whilst doing the whole lucifer thing in the background until the end. castiel is cool but the rest of this angel storyline stuff is lame.
ReplyDeleteThe amulet was given by Sam, not by God. It was a symbol of their brotherhood, of their bond. It was never given to find God. Dean knew that Sam was looking at him, he held it over the bin for a moment before declaring it worthless. Dean knew what the amulet meant. Sam wore it while Dean was in hell and it was the first thing he returned to him when he got back.
ReplyDeleteFrom the moment the angels were telling him things about Sam he believed them. He never gave Sam the benefit of the doubt. He never considered Sam's reasons why Sam was doing, he just deemed it wrong and acted accordingly. Strangely though, this season, we've seen Dean grasp at the power that was available to him whether that be Gadreels powers of resurrection, or the MoC, so he's not all that different from Sam and his motivations in season 4. Perhaps this season might help Dean understand Sam a little better.
In Torn and Frayed,Sam issued Dean with an ultimatum "It depends on you. On whether or not you're done with him'. Dean said he didn't know, then that he was glad he made the drive and he walked out the door. This is almost identical to When the Levee Breaks ie when Sam chose a demon before his brother. Later on in that episode he stopped Castiel from getting Sam.
(In relation to Sam and Benny, why didn't Dean tell Sam about Benny in the first place? This is another one of the things that the show has never addressed. Of all people, Sam would understand, he'd be grateful to Benny and he'd welcome him with open arms. Instead, Dean decided to keep him like a dirty little secret. Why would he do that if he trusted Benny?)
It took me a long time to figure out, but I think Tessa showed me.
ReplyDeleteYou put and then you put your text and then < (backslash)>
I wouldn't mind seeing Edlund come back if Revolution is done, although I'm not expecting him back.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Sam tried to get Dean out of hell after the supposed teaching indicates a different cause for that.
ReplyDeleteMy problem is, why do Winchesters think of it as a viable option? Cement can crumble and any seepage might wash away the salt. Ans even if the magic bullet kept Abbadon there, the bullet itself wouldn't last a century. I feel like whoever they threaten to "imprison forever" should be saying "you mean like a 1000 years or so? Sure, I could do with a nap."
ReplyDeleteHere's another possibility - are we sure that the sigil on the floor was an angel trap?
ReplyDeleteWe know that angel wards can weaken the angel and maybe that's all there is to it. When Crowley had Samandriel, he didn't keep him captive using holy fire but with bindings made of (probably) the stuff they use to make angel swords. Maybe the Winchesters learned a few things from him when they had Gadreel the first time.
You've got your Sam blinders on.
ReplyDeleteYes, Sam could've enlisted Jody's help or asked any other hunter - he chose not to. And no, he would not have to "start" with extensive coaching. Jody is a a cop and she could shoot - that's good enough to start with and the rest she could learn on the job. They could've started looking immediately.
I don't see Sam's speech as at the end as teenage angst - he has made mistakes, he feels guilty about them and he wants to make up for them. That is very much how he should be thinking. He has apologized for them, but never truly atoned. Maybe because of lack of opportunities, but Sam is far from having made up for his mistakes. And any one of those would've been enough to create a permanent rift between the two - that Dean only occasionally holds them against Sam is pretty understandable.
And did you just try to make excuses of Sam's behalf about him choosing Ruby over his brother?
Heehee, no, I didn't mind the little quote. It was a surprise, but a nice one. I've been reading along these reviews but having hopped into the discussion yet, so this gave me a little nudge.
ReplyDeleteSam "said" he imploded - but the way flashbacks showed him, he seemed just fine. That just sounds like a poor excuse for not looking.
ReplyDeleteTaking a demon's word regarding Dean's death ad never doing anything to confirm it - that's what makes it look like he didn't care.
Fearful enough to simply give up on Dean? You make him sound less and less caring by the second.
Crowley was incidental to the whole fight with Leviathans - no matter how many pies he has, having knowledge about newly created divine weapons and their effects is not something he was an expert on. So no, he wasn't as viable an option. Sam should've gone after him regardless.
Whether or not the torture would've been a waste of time, the effort itself would've made him sympathetic and caring. It is the absence of any effort at all that is being held against him.
I expected him to show some evidence of caring. He didn't have to be logical and list out the possibilities immediately - but I did expect him to start looking immediately, instead of running away. He could've made a few futile attempts - then calmed down and reasoned a way out - anything would've been better than what happened.
And is that Sam supposed to be the one who grew up and learned? He cares about others' welfare so he doesn't look for his brother, doesn't look for the demon-kidnapped prophet and stops hunting altogether? That sounds like he doesn't care about anyone's welfare at all. You are right - in previous seasons, we do see that Sam cares deeply about his brother. But for some reason, after Dick dies, Sam magically stops caring - atleast that's what the show tells us.
And Sam's breakdown in Mystery Spot is one I can get behind - this supposed one sounds like a poor excuse.
And yes, it does make Dean look a bit heartless. He does have more to go on - Crowley had claimed to have killed her himself, whereas he was - at best - guessing that Dean was dead. And he should've used her as a bargaining chip long before his capture - if she was truly alive. Doing it from a dungeon cell looked like a desperate ploy. But if it had been Sam, Dean would've gone looking - the way Kevin wanted to. So convincing Kevin otherwise was a bit callous.
No, a breakdown at that point would make him look weak. At that time he had no blood addiction, no looming destiny, he had his soul and his memories minus any the damage from hell - he was in a much better place - mentally - than he had been in in years. So a breakdown then would be weak. Especially a breakdown that leaves him perfectly capable of flirting with hot doctors.
And why did Sam believe Dean was dead? Because Crowley said so - that was stupid.
And what exactly is your argument in the last part?
Julia: I won't spend too much time defending Tessa, since she's fine doing that on her own. I will say I've watched her on the forums though, and it's pretty darned clear she's got her own opinions, and sticks by them. I don't think IMDB could brainwash her: I know it hasn't done it to me, I still adore Sam!
ReplyDeleteI will say, I hope the "Sam girls" who felt out of place on IMDB will come back, if that's what's been happening. I definitely agree we've got some pretty passionate Dean girls there, but hey, these characters generate a lot of passion, don't they? I genuinely don't think it's as bad as TWOP got to be - there it seemed every episode review would boil down to someone raving about how Sam Winchester was responsible for hangnails and migraine headaches. Like, ugh. I don't care for how Sam's been written the past couple of seasons (HE WOULD HAVE LOOKED FOR DEAN DANGIT), but that's sort of different.
Few things:
ReplyDeleteDean stopped believing in Sam (and himself and the rest of the free-will stuff) for a period in season 5 - but he had ample reason to do so and he cjanged his stance a few episodes later. However, he did not "believe" in an angel over him in season 4.
Dean also did not pick Benny over Sam in season 8 - he explicitly did the opposite. And declarations made under ghost influence are not binding.
Dean doesn't trust Sam's judgment from time to time - with good reason. That doesn't mean he doesn't trust Sam.
Finally, no matter what issues of trust between them, Dean always chooses Sam over everyone else - a trait sorely lacking in Sam.
"The amulet....got back."
ReplyDeleteI agree, Dean stopped believing in Sam at that point and with good reason. He was still not over Sam's betrayal with Ruby and the recent events in heaven showed him that the things Sam cherished most had nothing to do with family. If there ever was a reason to think that your brother doesn't truly care about you, this would be it.
And Dean didn't take anyone's word on what Sam was doing. The angels didn't tell him anything, they showed him. And Sam was given the benefit of doubt at every turn.
And in Torn and Frayed, Dean chose Sam over Benny - that is how the episode became the opposite of Levee Breaks.
I know a season isn't working when I have to look up the episode to see what it was about. Jeez.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Mother's Little Helper was one of the better episodes of the season. I thought it was clear in showing both of the brothers dealing with their internal struggle, despite the fact that a couple of episodes before that it was Dean trying to talk to Sam and Sam wouldn't have anything to do with Dean. In this one, it was Sam trying to connect with Dean, with Dean having none of it. That could be considered a slight continuity error, but I'll chalk that up to the MoC. The thing is, though, if it is chalked up to the MoC, that puts everything about between the brothers on the MoC and ignores everything that has come before it concerning the rift between them. I think Meta Fiction reinforced that view, because the question becomes has Sam's concern for Dean now overcome his anger?
Despite Mothers Little Helper being a decent episode, it still displayed Glass' tendency for unending exposition and his one-dimensional writing style (I point to the evil exposition nun).
I remember ending the episode thinking that Mothers Little Helper was a retelling for Dean of either Cas's downfall (S6) or Sam's downfall (S4), and that leads me to wonder once again if the writers have any creativity at all.
As far as Thompson's dialogue (and this is not limited to Thompson alone), I specifically recall Gadreel's line, "Was the Winchesters grabbing me part of your plan?" If the characters are "well-defined," I do not think an angel who has been imprisoned since the beginning of humanity would use the word "grabbed." A small point, but it goes to a larger point of the constant current pop culture references being thrown around these days.
Dean supposedly learned his pop culture language from growing up around John and living in seedy motels with limited access to TV stations. The language Dean used was a characteristic, a language that was understood by Sam. Now, not only does these current pop culture references date the show, everyone and their mother uses them. For me, it something that has been taken away from Dean and from Sam and Dean. It is something that bugs me (and I don't understand most of the current ones -- I have to Goggle them to figure it out or read posts from others who do understand them). And, seriously, do the brothers really have time while saving the world to spend in front of TV or go to a lot of movies?
However,
The way Deans flashbacks went they showed him 'not caring' either. Hell, he was living a happy, normal life. Sometimes you have to try and look a little deeper. Hell, it's done for Dean. Why shouldn't it be done for Sam? Sure, it takes a little more effort because the show is from Dean's POV but that doesn't mean viewers shouldn't at least try.
ReplyDeleteWhat should Sam have done to confirm it, ask another demon? And if that demon said that he was dead then should Sam believe him?
Fearful enough of what he's capable of doing, where that will lead him and the consequences of same. Would Sam have looked 'sympathetic' if he started sucking down demon blood again or killed a nurse? Nope, those who want to bash would just use that as the latest reason to bash.
So he should have pointlessly gone after Crowley or pointlessly tortured a few Leviathans? And I really doubt that pointlessly torturing monsters would have made Sam sympathetic to those who are determined to believe that he is unsympathetic. At the time Sam and Dean were in the middle of a war of which there were umpteen innocent casualties. Sam stopped the war by not fighting any more. He believed Dean was dead and he chose to stop fighting.
If Sam looked in the trunk of the car and drove around the block for a bit looking for Dean, would that have sufficed? If he collected a few books, would that have sufficed? Not bloody likely. And he imploded, he didn't get a fright. It's not as simple as he needed to 'calm down'.
Sam cares about the consequenes to others so he doesn’t repeat the mistakes of the past. They were in the middle of a war that, if he continued to keep fighting, there would be more innocent casualties. Sam stopped fighting. Do you think he should have torn open the gates of Heaven, Hell and Purgatory to get Dean out, to hell with the consequences to everyone else? Would that have made him ‘sympathetic’, or would that have made him selfish and foolish?
Sam's breakdown in Mystery Spot also shows us that Sam having a breakdown is not as OCC as you're constantly saying.
And I got it, mental health problems = weak person. I completely understand now why people don't talk about their problems.
Does there always need to be outside sources to have a breakdown? Sam never got to deal with anything of the stuff that you mentioned, it was simply pushed down the river. That had to come to a head, and it did. Do you really believe that he was in a good place when he went frantically flying into the vets?
Maybe Sam believed Dean was dead because he disappeared without a trace. Maybe he believed he was dead because of Crowleys words (and Crowleys capabilities. Why would Crowley want to leave Dean alive? ). Maybe he convinced himself he was dead and in a better place so that Sam himself could go on. Like I said, Sam isn't a robot.
My argument in the last part is that sometimes it's better not knowing, especially if you're capable of doing the things that Sam and Dean are capable of doing. Like I posed earlier, if Dean knew how to get Sam out of hell but it released Michael and Lucifer as well, then he'd have to make a decision about whether or not he should get him out. Choosing to leave him there (because it's necessary) would be infinitely worse than not knowing how to get him out in the first place.
There's always a reason for Dean to stop believing in Sam. He stops believing in Sam every time Sam doesn't act as he wants him to act. It probable he still doesn't understand why Sam chose to go with Ruby (and lets not forget that Sam asked Dean to go with them first and Dean said no) ie to stop Lucifer from rising. The mention of Dark Side of the Moon indicates exactly what is wrong with their relationship at the moment. Dean sees Sam as nothing more than a symbol or a role. I mean, how dare Sam have happy memories that don't include Dean. It's funny, in the memory of Dean that Sam saw he wasn't there either, it was just Dean and his mother yet Sam didn't use that to reject his brother.
ReplyDeleteThe angels were whispering in Dean's ear from the moment they were introduced (and they were introduced to be Dean's Ruby) in an attempt to turn the brothers against each other and prep them for the roles they were to play in the Apocalypse.
In Torn and Frayed Dean walked out the door when the ultimatum was issued so it's the same as When the Levee Breaks. At the end of the episode Dean took his own advice, both feet in or both feet out.
Dean has stopped believing in Sam more times than that, going back to pres-series, when Sam went to Stanford.
ReplyDeleteAnd in relation to 'with good reason', has Dean forgotten that he wanted the exact same thing as Sam? He wanted to kill Lilith as well. He and Bobby were preparing to kill her while Sam was locked up in the panic room. So if Sam can't be trusted 'with good reason', then neither can Dean. And don't forget Dean's actions led to the first seal being broken so can his judgment be trusted?
Why are declarations made under ghost influence not binding? Even if you want to ignore what he said, everything Dean said while under the influence he also said or alluded to over the rest of the season (and in seasons past).
No, he doesn't trust Sam. It's the big brother - baby brother mentality. Big brother always knows best, big brother is always right. Big brothers decisions must always be trusted and never questioned. Unfortunately on the flip side of that is the mentality that the baby brother cannot be trusted etc because they're too young, too inexperienced etc. Oh, he'll trust Sam in certain things, following his orders, having his back on a hunt, but trusting him to make his own decisions about what he wants, his judgment etc, the incidents of that are few and far between.
Dean choosing Sam over everyone else is the problem. Sam doesn't want him choosing him over everyone else, especially when there are huge consequences to that. Dean doesn't want Sam choosing Dean over everyone else (but then he gets pissy when he doesn't). Love is supposed to be freely given, it's not meant to come with conditions. The question is should Sam always choose Dean over everyone and everything else, to hell with the consequences?
Martin Anders, you do realise that trying to discuss Sam's actions does not mean I have blinders on. I'm sorry I'm not just blindly agreeing with your 'Sam is oh so stupid and selfish and weak and petty and never does anything right' stance but if any character on the show was as bad as you're persistently making Sam out to be then he wouldn't be on the show.
ReplyDeleteShooting a gun is entirely ineffective against Leviathans and demons. Had she done that then there's a very good chance that she too would be dead. When you learn on the job you start with small jobs, not the highly dangerous jobs the Winchesters are involved in. And it would be rather difficult to learn Latin etc 'on the job'. Nothing like a mispronounced exorcism to ensure your death.
Sam has apologised for what he has done, profusely. He did everything he could possibly do to make it up to his brother and I'm sorry that a couple of hundred years in the Cage isn't enough for you but there's really not much more than Sam can do. Sam tried to ensure that he wouldn't 'let Dean down any more' (how disturbing that 'letting someone down' means not doing what they want you to do). Dean's spiels in season 8 meant that Sam knew that apologies are no good, trying to atone is no good so he did what he could and tried to take himself out of the picture so that he couldn't let Dean down any more.
About the 'mistake' that Sam made in believing that Dean was dead, what exactly would sate you, public flogging, back in the Pit, ending the world for Dean, a declaration to be Dean's subservient little dog forever?
I'm also wondering, at any stage are you going to discuss Dean's mistakes, and the rifts they have put between the brothers, or are you going to focus solely on how the good and noble and oh so righteous Dean always graciously (supposedly) forgives his errant brother for everything he's ever done? I know the show has whitewashed most of what Dean does wrong (ie his role in starting the Apocalypse, not trying to get Castiel out of Purgatory despite believing he was responsible for leaving him there, not telling Sam about Benny, preventing Kevin from looking for his mother, and with the last episode, putting what was done to Sam entirely on Gadreel, eschewing all responsibility he had in the act) but do the fans have to do it as well?
And there's a difference between explaining and making excuses. I'm sorry that trying to explain Sam's actions bothers you so much.
Thanks,/i.
ReplyDeleteI would have been much more receptive to Bloodlines, IF they had not tacked the Supernatural tag on it. Or if they had used some of our SPN characters, like the Rabbi & the Golan, or Jody Mills, or Benny.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree. The principle reason that gave TO an edge that TO was founded on established characters on TVD. And, ratings-wise, TO isn't exactly on fire as it was when the series premiered. So whomever is accessing the spinoffs might be taking declining TO ratings into account, too. Who knows?
ReplyDeleteDeadline's report doesn't necessarily mean SPN:BL is not going to be ordered to series. Much of the online fandom has voiced similar concerns, hence the online fandom's cool reception to the spinoff. But online concerns are not always Nielsen viewers concerns, for take the example the opportunity for more lol!canon; 1) the SPN Nielsen viewers may not care as much as "we do" and 2) maybe the CW plan is to attract fans who've never seen any of SPN but I have watched TVD/TO/Being Human/Grimm/Sleepy Hollow, etc.
I don't really have any one theory why BL seems to be cooling off.
Yes I give every supernatural show a few eps, it just irks me using Supernatural in the name. ;_ If it is any good it should stand on its own.
ReplyDeleteI just assumed Gadreel got most of that language from being in Sam.
ReplyDeleteFor me Sam's always been a little worried about Dean (the start of The Purge), and it's just that as Dean has gotten worse, Sam has become more concerned. I don't think Sam's forgotten, but I don't think Sam ever wanted his brother to feel completely alone. For me it's not a continuity error, it's just gradual. And if they tried to explain it onscreen it would seem awkward.
Yes, I'll give BL several watches if picked up and I think (if picked up) the SPN - part will be eventually be dropped.
ReplyDeleteI mostly miss how he was as a showrunner in the first two seasons. I'm not sure where that Kripke went. Maybe it was Kim Manners, I don't know.
ReplyDeleteI always thought Sera was an overrated writer, to be honest (and she did the same speechifying that people now deride in the show), although she had her moments, especially in the first season.
I wouldn't mind having people like Matt Whitten come back - they weren't great, but they tried something different.
I guess they might feel that the SPN fans won't support a spinoff, but then, they must not have been that compelled to draw SPN fans anyway as the shows are similar in name only.
ReplyDeleteIf they're only going to pick up a certain amount of shows, then The Flash and one or two new pilots (according to that article, The Messengers and iZombie) may be all they want. I have a feeling that the heavy drops for all their new shows this season may make them wary of ordering too many new shows.
But online concerns are not always Nielsen viewers concerns, for take the example the opportunity for more lol!canon; 1) the SPN Nielsen viewers may not care as much as "we do"
The amount of viewers online who care about "lolcanon" is also not as wide as it would seem. There have been a number of times this season (like that episode where Cas took the grace) where I kept hearing about how outraged I was supposed to be over canon violations, and I didn't see them. I still don't. "lolcanon" has become a fancy way of saying, "I don't like this."
I get the feeling the CW saw these characters or all SPN characters as uncool or what have you. It's too bad.
ReplyDeleteSee, we're different as I liked all of Sera's episodes at least on some level. I agree that as showrunner she was lacking but I have to point out that she started with pretty much a blank slate and no certainty that the show was going to keep on being renewed - or if J2 would sign on for more seasons because they had 6 year contracts and were under no obligation to re-up.
ReplyDeleteMatt Witten as a writer or co - showrunner IF Singer leaves? Even though I wasn't a big fan of the two episodes he wrote, I did admire the way he was quite even in the way the handled writing both Sam and Dean - no excessive fanboying of either character or actor. . He does have quite a lot of producing experience so I wouldn't opposed if he returned in a writer or co-showunner position.
I think in shower scene we've been allowed to see as much as Jensen wanted us to see. Somehow I feel Js are not a big fans of taking their clothes off, especially Jensen, he seems like very unsecure about his body. In the latest NYT interview Jared proudly stated that in like 190 episodes he took his shirt off less then 10 times. They like to think people watch not because of they flashing their naked torsos on tv screen every week (not that I have anything against it LOL)
ReplyDeleteAnd Jensen's face is so expressive (and ridiculously handsome) that it screams close-ups. I did not have a problem with shower scene, I've seen what I had to: exhausted, tired Dean hoping to wash his sins out and erased that image of a stranger from the dim mirror.
He didn't want his brother to feel alone? He was willing to cut him deep with his deepest insecurities, invalidated his life's work by telling Dean that everything he has done has been for himself, that he has done more harm than good in his life, and it is all because they are brothers.
ReplyDeleteGadreel, who "spent countless thousands of years locked in Heaven's darkest dungeon (Metatron from Holy Terror); since the beginning of humankind, in fact, and then went directly into Sam's body and mind knows these are Dean's deepest thoughts about himself? Again, in Holy Terror, Gadreel says, "I know. Sam Winchester... It is a mess in here. And the brother – I do not know where to start." The only way Gadreel would know Dean's hang-ups is from Sam's thoughts. Sam, who supposedly knows Dean better than anyone, had to be deliberately mean and intending hurt by saying those things to Dean's face.
This viewer needs resolution to all of what Sam thinks about Dean by the time the season is over. Just saying Sam is worried about Dean because of the MoC, or having Sam rush in to save Dean from some dire circumstance, is not going to be enough. Since this is what Sam thinks of Dean, it needs to somehow be shown if and what changes Sam's mind -- if it changes. If it doesn't, then Dean needs to come to terms with the fact that Sam is never going to love him the way Dean loves Sam and turn it loose.
He didn't want his brother to feel alone? He was willing to cut him deep with his deepest insecurities, invalidated his life's work by telling Dean that everything he has done has been for himself, that he has done more harm than good in his life, and it is all because they are brothers.
ReplyDeleteHe said this after Dean repeatedly acted like nothing had changed and said that he'd do it all over again, and that Sam would do the same for him. I never thought it was out of a place of not caring or wanting to isolate Dean.
I do think the writing needs more clarification, but I don't feel like they ever said Sam didn't care about Dean.
Gadreel, who "spent countless thousands of years locked in Heaven's darkest dungeon (Metatron from Holy Terror); since the beginning of humankind, in fact, and then went directly into Sam's body and mind knows these are Dean's deepest thoughts about himself?
He has Sam's memories, and he spent a lot of time around Dean for months, if not longer. I don't think that means it's what Sam actually felt about Dean.
I had a lot of issues with some of her episodes - even ones that otherwise were perfect would get bogged down by bad, clumsy speechifying (the episode where Gordon became a vampire), although she did have some solid work. I suppose I'm somewhat sour because I really was not crazy about her last episodes as a writer. If I rewatch again I'm sure I will have a better opinion. For me her best work was with Raelle Tucker, especially Faith.
ReplyDeleteI meant Whitten returning as a writer with or without Singer. I don't know his showrunning history. I just liked how he didn't fall into the usual traps of Dean and Sam that were prevalent even at that point. No Exit didn't work, but it was something different at least. Playthings I actually enjoyed quite a bit.
I just had to jump in because IMDB is generally known as the MOST
ReplyDeleteDean-centered site out there. I'm a Sam girl who would never ever post
because the posters there are definitely attached to one viewpoint, and
his name is Dean.
Gotta chime in and agree w/Julia on the Supernatural IMDb forums. They are very anti-Sam/Jared. It is almost a very Dean/Jensen centric site.
Most Sam/bi-bro fans jumped ship on IMDb years ago. I browse every once in a while to see if the forums have changed any, but they are always the same.
ReplyDeleteWell I guess we agree to disagree and I guess you somewhat misunderstood most of my points. ;)
ReplyDeleteDean can't change, those 2 points I made were ingrained him since he was 4, and knowing real people who are as obsessed as Dean, he will just stay that way. All that "he has to change" is a nice theory, but simply won't happen, because Deans self worth depends on being the protector and hunter. Sad, but thats how it is.
Same with Sam, he will probably rattle his cage so to speak, until his dying day trying to get out of the hunter lifestyle. But like Dean, no chance for that.
Sam and Dean can try and get out of the hunter life....usually when the other has disappeared or something like that, guess why, but in the end neither Lisa and Ben nor Amelia worked.
Has anyone ever believed they would? Of course not, that was never their intended role. And ultimately, neither Sam nor Dean are really made for the dull and boring normal life, the show made that pretty clear.
I never said Dean and Sam haven't hurt each other they have in the past, they have and will so in the future.
But like Bobby said, that is what family does to you, sometimes that is what they are there for, or so it seems.
Family are also the only people that can forgive you almost anything you've done, especially if you hurt them.
So I doubt we see much change in Sam and Dean until the series finale, and that's fine with me.
Haha! Ginger, as I was reading Peter's post, I thought to myself, "What was Mother's Little Helper about again?" LOL!
ReplyDeleteUnlike you, I have not looked it up yet so I'm still in the dark w/r/t that episode. I do know that I didn't like any episode that aired the past few weeks so I'm thinking I didn't like MLH either.
The only good episode - for me - this year was the one where they got Gadreel out of Sam's body. I remember liking that episode.
Agreed!
ReplyDeleteCarver's done a real number on Sam, and the audience needs to hear from Sam how he feels about Dean. As a long time bi-bro fan, I honestly don't know what to think. And that's b/c of the hatchet job Carver's done on the character. Would Sam save Dean? I don't know at this point. Maybe if it wasn't too involved . . . he might do it.
Under Kripke, there was no doubt as to what Sam would do if Dean was in trouble, and there was no doubt about his love for his brother.
Ready, willing, able...whatever. I was under the assumption that Sam chose death and is mad at Dean because he did not let him die. Choosing may not, however, equate to 'wanting.' Perhaps Sam thought that a big self-sacrifice is the only thing that would make his life count for something?
ReplyDeleteNo, that can't be right, because he did not complete the third trial. Hell is not closed.
Perhaps he was 'ready,' because he had let Dean down too many times?
No, that can't be right, because he told Dean he was selfish and nothing he has ever done has made things better.
Does that mean he was 'ready' to die, because nothing he has done has counted for anything?
I don't have a clue as to why Sam was willing, or ready, or chose death. What I know is that he is mad at Dean, because Dean did not let him die.
From Road Trip: Sam: I was ready to die, Dean!
Dean: I was ready to die, Dean!
Sam: So, what? You decide to trick me into being possessed by some... psycho angel?
Dean: He saved your life.
Sam: So what? I was willing to die.
I ask again, why was Sam willing to die? It's not because his death at the beginning of the season would mean anything. How did Sam get from choosing to live in Sacrifice and fight with his brother to willing to die in I Think I Am Going to Like It Here.
Again, no parameters to the story. Dean saved his life; Sam wanted, was ready, or chose death, Sam is PO'd and told Dean they could not be brothers, that Dean was selfish, afraid to be alone, and has never made things better (that, BTW, means disowning Dean as a brother to me).
Carver definitely did a disservice to Sam last year. Even Jared found the arc/story completely OOC and unbelievable! Jared knows Sam would have looked for his brother!
ReplyDeleteIt's ridiculous that Carver skipped the part of the story that explains WHY Sam thought Dean was dead since as you pointed out, Dean's disappeared before but not been dead!
I disagree w/you about Sacrifice, but agree wholeheartedly that early S8 Sam (i.e., anything before ATGB) was horribly OOC.
ReplyDeleteBelieving Dean to be dead without any evidence makes Sam look like an
ReplyDeleteidiot. Not trying to even confirm any of it makes him look callous.
I couldn't agree more w/this. This was the failing in the story. This was the reason Carver was asked numerous times and well into the second half of the season if there was ever going to be an explanation for why Sam didn't look for Dean.
The story simply didn't make sense. Carver never even attempted to tell that story. I'm not sure why researching his brother's disappearance, coming to the conclusion that Dean was dead, and moving on w/his life would have been seen as immature but I don't understand Carver's idea of "maturity."
No, they have not narratively said that Sam does not love Dean, but there is show and there is tell. It does not work for me for the show to tell us something, but show us something else. Other than that, I do not think it is fighting fair to strike out at a person's basic human's foundations and personality; especially if you supposedly LOVE that person. But Sam did, and he knew it would cut deeply. It did and Dean is responding like he would to any other Tom, Dick or stranger. Sam no longer holds the "family" card, or "big brother protector" card over Dean.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Carver, the brothers chose each other over the mission for the first time at the end of S8. Not what I am seeing this season. Carver is telling us this season that the brothers' love for each other is deeper than they think. He will have to fudge really hard to come up with a resolution this time, because I am a fan who is done with the brothers' love for each other crap. Personally, I would be happy if they were separated next season, because I am tired of the unending teenage angst.
Yes, Gad has all of Sam's memories and thoughts, but I would seriously find it OOC for Dean to share his deepest secrets knowing that Gadreel is in Sam. Hell, he doesn't even share them with Sam.
Now put it that way, the whole "not looking" makes a lot more sense to me, thanks Nick.
ReplyDeleteThe producers and directors did a poor job telling the viewers that Sam suffered a "silent breakdown" they could have made it more clear, by one or two sentences.
The look of despair Sam showed after Dean and Dick Roman vanished at the lab, the panic he showed when he took the dog he hit to the vet, the guilty and nervous look when he saw Dean again at the remote cabin.....in the context of a breakdown it makes much more sense.
Sam was so in denial over Dean just vanishing that every time he thought what happened he just froze (not literally of course), driving around aimlessly....just to be moving, not to settle and take a few minutes to think about Dean, about Kevin or anything to do with hunting or family or friends.
Denial all over and running from himself, his responsibilities, the hunter life......because otherwise he would have to stop and face the unthinkable, Dean might be dead once again, and Sam would be helpless to do anything about it. So he practically just ran, even Ameila was just a another form of running, and not thinking back.......Sam only stopped running when Dean called him.
Again, the producers and directors didn't emphasize it enough to make it clear. Such a major plot point and as a viewer you have to find your own answers? Totally unprofessional and inexcusable, sorry.
I wish Titan Books would still publish the Official Companions for Supernatural, they stopped with season 7 it seems. A companion would have been a good place the sum up such a major plot point executed so poorly that the audience mostly missed it.
"The way Deans flashbacks..."
ReplyDeleteWhat flashbacks?
And yes, I would love to take a deeper look into Sam's psyche and come up with excuses as to why he is not the cold/callous/weak or uncaring guy - but that's all they would be - excuses. The show has given us nothing to hang our hat on.
"What should Sam..."
I've already given a list of options all of which Sam was quite capable of thinking himself.
"Fearful enough of..."
Except, none of the options listed would've ended there. You don't stop driving because you are afraid you might run someone over - you just drive carefully.
"So he should have.."
He had no reason to think all those options would be pointless. In fact, you have no reason to think they would've been pointless. And yes, killing monsters makes the character sympathetic - that's the bedrock of the show.
And what war exactly did he stop? The fighting went on without him. Innocent lives were still being lost. And believing Dean to be dead was stupid to begin with.
"If Sam looked in...selfish and foolish?"
These two paragraphs have to be the most ridiculous I've read. They were not in the middle of war- the war was over when Dean killed Dick. And even if they had been in the middle of the war - abandoning it midway is a sure way to get more people killer, not less. By giving up, Sam gave up on all the lives he could've saved in an year's worth of hunting.
And how many times I have to list the viable options available to Sam. He didn't have to tear open any gates.
"Sam's breakdown..."
No, it just shows that Sam is quite capable of working through his breakdown to save his brother.
"Does there always...into the vets?"
He was in a better place he had been previously in the season.
"Maybe Sam believed..."
That was stupid. Sudden disappearance does not equal death - as Sam well knows from "Time after time". And Crowley had plenty of reasons to lie - he wanted Sam to go after Dean, he wanted Sam to try and make a deal, he wanted Sam to give up, he wanted Sam in revenge mode and going after Leviathans, he wanted Sam's attention away from Kevin. Som believing Crowley was stupid too. And simply convincing himself that Dean was dead? Why would he want that? Does he not want his brother by his side?
"My argument in the last part..."
That argument does Sam's character no favors at all. Rather than facing the possibility of having to make a hard choice, you are saying Sam would rather not know anything, bury his head in sand and go on believing Dean was dead? That, more than anything else, would make him a coward.
Actually, the only times Dean doesn't believe in Sam are when Sam chooses or trusts someone or something else over his own family. Like choosing Ruby over Dean. Or, in the memory land, thanksgiving - a time to be spent with family - being spent with someone else's family. Or the time he ran away from his family. Or the time he left them for Stanford.
ReplyDeleteAnd what exactly were the angels "whispering"? Whatever rift came between them was Sam's doing - that is one thing you cannot blame on angels.
As for Torn and Frayed vs Levee - In Levee, Sam chose Ruby over Dean,Ruby betrayed him and then Sam decided to "come back" to Dean. In T&F Dean did not make the choice - he postponed making of that choice to the end of the episode, at which point he chose Sam over Benny - like he always does. Thus, these two are opposite cases.
"Dean has stopped believing in Sam..."
ReplyDeleteWrong - if he didn't believe in Sam, he wouldn't have gone there to get him in the Pilot.
"And in relation..."
It wasn't so much what he wanted, it was how. It was the same with Castiel - defeating Raphael or Lillith are fine goals, but if you do it the wrong way (drink demon blood or absorb souls), then you are likely to make things worse. Which is why Sam couldn't be trusted and Dean could.
"Why are declarations..."
Because under that influence, the negative emotions are heightened to irrational limits and the usual counterpoints take a backseat. Unless you think Sam's words in "Asylum" were an accurate representation of his take on Dean, you cannot regard Dean's statements under the influence as accurate either.
If Dean had said the same thing outside the influence, then it'd matter, but he didn't.
"No, he doesn't trust Sam..."
Given the enormity of mistakes Sam has made in the past, I'd say Dean would be justified in placing far less trust in Sam than he currently does.
"Dean choosing Sam over..."
& what exactly are the conditions set by Dean?
I'd like to see Sam choose Dean over someone else - even if not everyone else.
"you do realise that trying..."
ReplyDeleteI'm not the one making Sam look "stupid and selfish and weak and petty" - you are. And the fact that you don't see it is why I said you had blinders on.
My position is - season 8 Sam was OOC. His actions and motivations were not consistent with the character we knew before. There were no excuses of justification given to even make them seem in-character. The only excuse there is that Sam was badly written as a plot device for the sake of drama and all I can hope is that they do not repeat the mistake.
You are the one trying to "justify" his actions - or, more specifically, his inaction. And your justifications make him sound "stupid and selfish and weak and petty".
"Shooting a gun is entirely..."
Except for the fact that the three "newbies" of last season, Mills, Charlie and Kevin, all started with facing Leviathans. Give her a little more credit.
"Sam has apologised..."
Which apologies were these "profuse apologies" in? I don't recall Sam ever saying "I'm sorry for choosing Ruby over you."
All I remember is Sam apologizing for letting Lucifer free - not for choosing Ruby over Dean.
"About the 'mistake'..."
Let's start with not making the assumption that makes an ass out of you.
"I'm also wondering,..."
If you want to start on it in a separate discussion - sure.
"And there's a difference..."
It bothers me that your "explanations" (excuses) show Sam in such a poor light.
I'll try to explain in a series of Q&A hypothetically posed to Sam
ReplyDeleteQ: You can save uncountable lives by sacrificing yourself to this cause - would you?
A: Sure.
Q: But your brother would be devastated. He'd beg you not to throw yourself away and assure you he'd find another way to save those lives - what about now?
A: Well, I love my brother and don't want to hurt him - so no, I'd rather fight to live.
Q: Too bad, the fight is over. You lost. Its your time to go. You coming?
A: No, I don't want to leave my brother in a lurch.
Q: Suit yourself, but you know what happens to people who stick around after their time. It always ends badly. Care to reconsider?
A: You are right, that would be worse. I'll go.
Q: Wait a sec, your brother has found a way to save you after all. What about now?
A: Well, if he can save me without hurting anyone, ofcourse I'd rather be with him. So, I'll live.
Q: Wait, I didn't say it'd be without price. It will cost you, as heavily as such things have cost you in the past.
A: I don't want either me or my brother to bear a burden like that again - I'd rather go.
Remove the last question and that was Sam before he knew about possession and the last one was after.
You know, I was hoping for some revelation of this kind.
ReplyDeleteIn my head!canon during the season, I figured Sam did look for Dean. He tried to find Kevin for some answers, while keeping the other avenues open - and Crowley couldn't have that. So the King set up a con where an angel would tell Sam about Dean being in heaven (he did have some of those in his pay) and giving him the sadistic choice - do something that'd get a lot of people killed in exchange for your brother.
Now that would've been maturity - Sam, having learned from their past mistakes - choosing to let his brother rest. And at that point, he was so tired and afraid that he might not be able to stick to that choice that he simply gave up hunting altogether.
Now that Dean is back and the truth about purgatory is out, Sam is angry at himself for being fooled and feels guilty about leaving Dean there. So, instead of explaining himself, he'd rather weather Dean's anger and disappointment because he feels he deserves it. Because he feels he let his brother down.
And the thing is - this wouldn't have taken much. They could've covered this in one episode - instead of the insipid Amelia flashbacks, show the flashbacks of the time before. Would that have been so hard?
I don't think they were considering Castiel expendable. They just began to discuss strategy. I believe firmly that there was never any doubt that they were going to trade for Castiel. I think Castiel is so important to them that they did not have to discuss it.
ReplyDeleteBasically, what you are saying is that Sam was ready to give up...again. I can buy that, since it is in Sam's nature to quit or walk away. Sam not wanting to bear the burden and being "ready" to die, however, would not solve the problem of Dean being left alone to carry the burden himself. The Show has always told us that Dean is a born hunter and will always hunt.
ReplyDeleteNeither would it relieve Dean of the heartache and pain of Sam dying, or of the hurt Sam caused by telling Dean they could no longer be brothers. Dean loves Sam, will always protect Sam, and would feel like he failed if he at least did not do everything in his power for Sam to live...well, he would have before Sam disowned him and made him feel worthless as hell.
Look, I know the Show is about two brothers, who love each other, blah, blah, blah. What I am saying is that the Show has not shown that abiding love for years and years now, and it certainly is not showing it this season. Sam is mad because Dean saved his life, or you could take that further and say that Sam is mad because Dean saved his life by allowing possession. Sam was ready to die for no apparent gain of anything. Hell was not closed and fallen angels were all over the planet. Had Sam died, Dean would have been left with the mess on his own and Sam would have had the outcome of his choice. That just sounds screwy.
Nor do I think that Sam has always loved Dean as Dean does Sam. IMO, the brotherhood, the brother's profound bond, is a myth, and I am over it.
With Mystery Spot, isn't that more Sam's inability to get the Trickster's (I refuse to call him Gabriel) point than the Trickster not being a good teacher? There's only so much a teacher can do for a student if the student simply ignores the lesson or refuses to learn it.
ReplyDeleteSo, Dean doesn't believe in Sam when chooses someone else? It's got nothing to do with what he does (because Dean does the same thing), it's the fact that Dean expects to be put first and foremost every time, and if he's not then he withdraws trust and belief. So I'm guessing if Sam had married Jessica than Dean wouldn't have believed in him any more, or if Sam decides he wants out of hunting then Dean won't believe in him any more.
ReplyDeleteYou don't know the circumstances behind Sam's memories ie why he went to that house for Thanksgiving. Perhaps John and Dean were on a hunt. You don't know why he ran away
The angels were whispering in Dean's ear about Sam needing to be stopped (despite the fact they wanted him to do it) from the moment they got back. Dean already had suspicions about Sam going darkside because of all the earlier incidents (the visions, being 'different' when he got back from hell, being sympathetic towards monsters etc). He had no belief in Sam and his ability to do right. Compare this to the belief that Sam had in Dean in season 5, when Dean wanted to say yes to Michael. Sam's belief in Dean is unconditional, even when Dean does wrong or has bad intentions. He doesn't withdraw and hold it over his brothers head like Dean does.
And why did Sam chose Ruby? Because she had the intel needed to kill Lilith and prevent Lucifer from rising.
Well then, going by your 'logic' Sam didn't choose Ruby either, he just postponed it until the job was done. You know, after the Apocalypse was over. And the fact that Dean expected Sam to put his woobie feelings before saving the world speaks volumes about Dean.
I'm with you about the Trickster. It really pissed me off when they retconned him into Gabriel. I just refuse to accept that as canon. Not because I particularly cared for the character that much, just the retcon pissed me off that much.
ReplyDeleteReally, what place isn't lately? Early in the show, when I was a HUUUUUGE Dean girl who HATED Sam, love for Sam seemed to be pretty evenly paced with Dean. These days ... it's like everyone's against him. Even the writers on his own show. If they want to make him that unlikable to the point he's almost not redeemable to fans, why don't they just write him off the series? Jared's contract is up after season ten, isn't it? I'm sure he can find work doing something else.
ReplyDeleteI agree you with 100% plus 1. I think in that NYTimes article they were trying to say that THIS show at least does not have to sell us as naked cowboys. I also think that they don't particularly WANT to show their bodies off. And I don't know if SHOW agrees with them or the network itself (it is so funny when you read network memos to SHOW about making the coat Dean wears more fear-inspiring or something I mean they discuss their clothes (why aren't they in sleep clothes?) the way the car looks, just wacky stuff (I never saw one which discussed the plot though, I guess those aren't leaked).
ReplyDeleteDean went to get Sam in the Pilot because he didn't want to 'do this on his own'. Sam going to Stanford was, in Dean's mind, the first betrayal. This was the first reason he couldn't be fully trusted, because he wasn't as committed to hunting as Dean was. You said it yourself up above, whenever Sam puts someone or something else over Dean he stops believing in him.
ReplyDeleteA goal is a goal, the end result is the same. What difference would it make to anyone if Sam died as long as the goal was met?
The thoughts were there (Dr. Ellicots words have been used against Sam multiple times). And Dean's said, or alluded to the same thing, when he wasn't under the influence ie 'Sacrifice, and the big list of Sam's 'sins' (some of which Dean himself did, one of which Sam didn't do at all).
The enormity of the mistakes would be what? Going to college, wanting out of hunting, trying to stop the Apocalypse? Was it just the drinking blood and using the powers that were his biggest mistakes? Once again, you really should look at the why Sam did those things ie to save lives and to stop the Apocalypse. Or was Sams biggest mistake was that he doesn't put Dean first and foremost every single time? I guess Sam has to think about the welfare of other people, because if Dean only focuses on Sam, then someone has to.
The conditions re those that you laid out about.
Learning is a two-way street. Sam's inability to learn the lesson makes him a bad student as much as it makes the Trickster a bad teacher.
ReplyDeleteI know, right? Over on Supernatural.tv, there was a huge post titled, "The Writers Don't Care About Sam?" I believed that then, and I still believe it now. I'm still shocked at the huge disservice Carver did to Sam last year and this year. It's like the writers don't see how their material for Sam comes off to a lot of viewers.
ReplyDeleteApologies, the scenes of Dean with Ben and Lisa.
ReplyDelete"And yes, I would love to take a deeper look into Sam's psyche
and come up with excuses as to why he is not the cold/callous/weak or uncaring
guy - but that's all they would be - excuses. The show has given us nothing to
hang our hat on."
This line right here shows that regardless of what Sam did, or what 'excuses' he had, you're determined to think of him in a certain way. Any argument that seeks to explain his actions is readily dismissed by you. Is that because you want to think of him as 'cold/callous/weak and uncaring'.
You've given me a list of things that you yourself have admitted would be pointless.
The options I've listed would most likely have ended in something bad happening. This is SPN, and generally actions don't have positive consequences.
The show has gone to great lengths to show us that killing monsters is not always black and white. So that's not the bedrock of the story.
As long as Sam kept fighting, then the war would keep going on. In fact, if he kept fighting (ie making deals, dealing with demons etc for Dean) then the war would probably escalate and there would be more innocent casualties. Sam stopped fighting, no Apocalypse part deux. Compare that to what happened when Dean came back and they jumped into the fray again; death and chaos (so those two paragraphs are not actually 'ridiculous'. If nobody ever holds up the white flag, then there will be more death.
In relation to Sam 'gave up on all the lives that he coud've saved in an year's worth of fighting',( I'll ignore the fact that people were also dying when Dean spent his year with Ben and Lisa), as Sam said there will always be other hunters. Yes, people died, and they'll continue to die long after Sam and Dean are gone. They'll continue to be saved long after Sam and Dean are gone. However, small hunts are just that; small. What the Winchesters get involved in are huge Apocalyptic battles. Add to that, if Sam was capable of hunting then he'd be capable of searching. He wasn't, so he didn't.
Sam's 'working through his breakdown' involved him killing 'Bobby'.
The previous season he had there there as his 'stone number one'.
In Time After Time, they had something to go on. They were in the middle of a case when Dean disappeared. You've also listed out plenty of reasons why Crowley would lie, and why he would tell the truth. Perhaps Crowley has the same mindset as you, he expected Sam to react in a certain way after he told him that Sam was well and truly on his own because he wanted Sam to do certain things (like in season 6). Playing Crowleys game also had bad end results, so Sam didn't play.
Martin Anders, I'm long past the stage where I think anything I say to you will do the character of Sam 'any favours'! Your determination to think the very worst of him in all situations show shown me how futile that is. However, once again, compare it to Dean 'collecting books'. Note, he never said he read them, we never saw him do one iota of research re the Cage. He never contacted Bobby or Castiel, the two characters who knew as much, if not more, about the situation than he did. Perhaps Dean wanted to avoid a situation whereby he'd have to make that choice. Dean has always been better at lying to himself than Sam has. Perhaps he knew that collecting books would be as 'pointless' as Sam torturing Leviathans for information, but by collecting the books then at least he felt like he was doing something, that he hadn't given up hope. It's an awful shame that no-one ever questions Dean further on these kind of statement, they just take him at his word. I think if Dean did have to explain himself, and many of his actions, he'd realise that he and Sam aren't all that different.
It wouldn't have been hard at all, and I was hoping that would be the story as well but I knew we weren't ever getting a real reason for Sam not looking. Carver thought we'd all be satisfied with the "Sam thought Dean died" angle so he didn't bother to flesh out his story, which says a lot about his skills as a writer and his understanding of this show, the audience, and the character of Sam.
ReplyDeleteNope, I’m discussing his actions and why they’re not entirely OCC. And Martin Anders, to say that someone has blinders on because they don’t see things the same way as you is phenomenally arrogant. Sam not acting as you expect him or want him to act does not mean that he’s OCC.
ReplyDeleteJody dealt with the Leviathans by calling Bobby and getting out of there. With Charlie, Sam and Dean did their utmost to keep her out of direct danger.
And here we go. It’s not that Sam didn’t apologise, it’s that he didn’t apologise enough or specifically enough for you. Hey, you’re the one who wanted actions, not words. Aside from the verbal apology, Sam spent the season having his actions apologise.
I've already mentioned it. On more than one occasion, Sam and Dean have done the exact same thing with the exact same goal. However, your argument is that when Dean does it then it's different or it doesn't count.
You see Sam in poor light anyway so I don't know why my explanations bother you so much.
I think it was more of a case that Sam chose Dean because he 'didn't want to let Dean down again'. If Sam decided to go ahead with closing the gates of hell then he'd be letting Dean down again because it wasn't what Dean wanted him to do.
ReplyDeleteThat's why I think the brothers vs hunters argument is there this season. If it was any other person there bar Sam, then Dean wound't have stopped them because it would be worth the sacrifice. If it was Dean there instead of Sam and Sam was begging him to stop, then Dean wouldn't have stopped. It calls their ability to hunt into question when they are unwilling to allow the other to make the sacrifices necessary for them to do their job.
It's also what makes Deans statement about how he'd do it again worrying. Bringing people back from the dead is a triviality for Dean, because the consequences rarely fall on him. I doubt it would bother him all that much if some random stranger died as long as he got what he wanted. Sure, he'd feel guilty, but he wouldn't feel guilty enough to not do it again so that's a pretty superficial guilt.
I think the failing in the story was not the actions they took, but they didn't invest enough time in it. Unfortunately, they were onto a losing battle from the onset because the negativity and criticism about the storyline started during the hiatus when many posters decided that it was OCC ever before the story made it to the screen.
ReplyDeleteHad they given more of Sam's POV and let of Dean's judgment of Sam then I'm sure that more (but certainly not all) viewers would have found the story more palatable and understandable.
Even if the audience hears from Sam as to how he feels about Dean, a good chunk of the audience would just ignore it. Sam tells Dean constantly how postively he thinks about him but as soon as Sam says something Dean doesn't want to hear then they latch onto that as being all that Sam thinks.
ReplyDeleteSam didn't say that he wouldn't save Dean. He said, in the same circumstances he wouldn't do the same as Dean. And why would he? He loves and respects his brother enough to not do the same thing to Dean as Dean did to him. If he knew that Dean wanted to go then he'd let him go, because Sam doesn't show his love for his brother by putting a noose around his neck to keep him close, he shows it by letting him go if that's what Dean wants.
He also knows Dean pretty well. He knows that Dean would not want some sort of deal to bring him back (well, Dean in the past did. Dean this season seems to expect it, to hell with the consequences) so he won't go against his wishes.
That being said, I think we will see Sam trade his life for Dean before the end of next season. As I said, Dean expects it and it seems this is the only acceptable way to show that you 'love' your brother, regardless of what your brother wants or how they feel about it. It was foreshadowed in this episode when Gadreel told Dean that Sam would not trade his life for Deans. So expect Sam to trade his life for Dean, and/or go to hell for Dean to save Dean from the MoC.
(And if the show is renewed for an 11th season, then expect to see Dean tell Sam how selfish he is for doing that because Sam should have known that Dean would never want that, and so it will all begin again!)
There's a difference between Dean fans and Sam haters (the vast majority of Dean fans love Sam and have no problem discussing him) and unfortunately, IMDB has its fair share of the latter. It's not a safe or comfortable place for Sam fans and I doubt it ever will be. Unfortunately, the one thread where Sam could be discussed freely (the Sam squad) has now been infested by two posters who crap all over posters there, calling them trolls and a variety of nasty names.
ReplyDeleteThere was a comment made a while ago though, that 'Dean fans' on IMDB are obsessed with Sam and it's a pretty accurate assessment. The majority of threads descend into Sam criticism, even the seemingly innocuous ones. It ties in with how Sam is written ambiguously. Comments that solidify his viewpoint (ie, that he is worried about Dean) or entire scenes that justify his actions (ie that Benny was indeed killing again) are cut out, and because of that, it gives more than enough opportunity to criticise him. It's always easier to hate than to love and understand and as long as the audience are talking then TPTB don't give a crap!
I don't think it's a case that the writers don't care about Sam. The writers are writing for him but unfortunately, many of the scenes or lines that offer insight into the character are cut. This is obviously being done intentionally.
ReplyDeleteDean has always been the POV character and because of that we never really have to think about his actions etc. Anything he does is blindly accepted by the audience. Sam is the opposite, he's the character who challenges the audience. He's the one we look at and we're shocked by what he does but when we really think about it we say 'Jeez, was that actually the best course of action? Dang, if I was Sam would I have done the same thing etc?' and if you consider it truthfully then you might just say 'Yes, I would' and then Sam's actions become more understandable. This is what inspires the discussion and passion (and love and hate are both passion). Look at this thread, the bulk of the discussion is about Sam, not Dean. On many occasions the writers have written Dean doing and saying identical things in the last two seasons yet all the discussion is still focused on Sam and why Sam said it and how mean Sam is that he said it etc, not on Dean who says/does the same thing!
This is, for me, where the show has failed Dean. I'll be honest, Carvers Dean bores me. He doesn't challenge me because nothing he does is ever questioned, or dealt with. It's just automatically accepted as being the right thing to say/do because it's Dean who says/does it. The extent of the whitewashing of Dean is gone beyond irritating and is now comical, and it's doing a serious disservice to Dean's character because it bring about the idea that what he does can't be explained so it's just ignored. That sort of laziness when it come to writing Dean (Ah, we won't bother explaining what he means because it's not as if the audience will question it) has led to a stage where I don't expect any better from the writing for Dean.
Sam is often considered insensitive or cold because the audience only consider the effect his words/actions have on the POV character, not the actual words themselves. Case in point is this season, Sam says that in the same circumstances, he wouldn't do the same thing that Dean did, and automatically it's considered was the cold, heartless, cruel thing to say. I mean, how dare he!! But what was actually wrong with what Sam said? Would it not have been worse if Sam said he wanted Dean to makes deals etc for him?
In relation to showing 'concern for his brother', like anything, that's open for debate, especially since Carver took over. There have been plenty of times in the past where Dean has shown zero concern for Sam, especially Sam as a person, an individual. Has Dean even asked Sam how he was after the double possession and torture? Dean never even asked Sam the name of the woman he got a place with.
Sam is often considered by Dean to be some sort of job, a goal, someone he has to do all these things 'for', as if Sam wants or needs these things. Yet when Sam doesn't want the things that Dean decides that Sam wants or needs, then Sam in the insensitive one!
But Sam eventually learned the lesson (via experience, not being told it) and let his brother go the next time he died and for the fans, that makes him a bad person!
ReplyDeletePeople certainly can change, but they have to want to. However, if Dean's inability/unwillingness to change is affecting his brother and Dean knows it, should he not at least try and change? We're not talking about Dean using Sam's computer to watch his porn, we're talking about Dean feeling that he, and only he, has to right to make decisions (or have free will) in relation to Sam's life. If Dean knows that Sam doesn't want that, and would never want that, then can he really be surprised or offended if Sam distances himself from both Dean and hunting? Dean (and Sam) have to find worth in themselves; it should not be dependent on other people.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Sam and Dean can get out of the hunting life, if that is what they want. All they have to do is say 'I'm not doing this any more'. That doesn't mean that if danger comes to them they just sit back and let it happen, it just means they don't go chasing it down. Other hunters will take their place, other hunters will save lives. Will those other hunters save everyone? No, but neither have Sam or Dean.
I find the reference to Bobby interesting. I mean, Bobby killed his father because of what he was doing to himself and his mother. He didn't accept that this is what family does to you, what they are there for etc. Surely if someone is hurting you (whether it be physically, psychologically or emotionally) then you should take measures to stop that hurt from happening again. Now, before anyone jumps all over me, I'm not saying that Sam and Dean should kill each other (though I'm intrigued by the idea of Sam or Dean killing the other in order to save them. I mean, this is what Cain said he did re Abel. Perhaps the only way to save Dean and free him from the MoC would be to kill him and send him to heaven, and Sam would go to hell for it. Double whammy, Dean will be saved and Sam will have made the sacrifice!) I just think that, like Bobby, if you're uncomfortable with a situation then you should take steps to try and rectify it, ideally without a shotgun!.
I know that things can't change until the series finale. It is a show about hunting so while the show is on the air they have to hunt but in the finale, I would love to see Sam getting out of hunting. Let Dean continue hunting if that is what he wants, he's always enjoyed it more than Sam. Or if he wants let him get out as well. Free will, yadda yadda! The brothers doing different things with their lives doesn't mean they're not brothers or they care about each other any less, it just means they're not doing the thing that has constantly driven a wedge between them (actually, getting out of hunting would probably be far better for their relationship than staying in hunting).
Why would Sam off himself? There's a difference between being willing to die and wanting to die.
ReplyDeletePlus, as Nick said, there would be no point in 'offing himself', Dean would just bring him back. And so the cycle would continue.
It also calls into question why Dean wants to kill Gadreel. After all, he merely did what Dean wanted him to do.
For me, the brothers' relationship is the foundation of the show, so I don't think it is good that Carver has made it so one-sided. As of now, Dean is the one willing to take all the risks. Dean is the one willing to sacrifice everything while Sam just sits back and does nothing.
ReplyDeleteSam was NOT that way under Kripke so I don't appreciate Carver making him this way. I don't want to have to wonder if Sam will save Dean. That doesn't make him interesting or intriguing to me. That makes him wildly OOC. Everything Carver has done has been OOC, IMO.
I'm a bi-bro fan, and I'm sick of having to defend Sam or reading about how much Sam doesn't care about Dean. It doesn't help when Carver writes Sam in such a way that one could really believe that Sam doesn't care. How in the world did the sympathy turn to Dean when Sam was the one wronged? It's because Sam was given a hateful, cruel, OTT speech - TWICE.
But that's just how I see it. You may see it differently!
Well, aren't we saying the same thing? Not investing any time or thought into the actual story is an action.
ReplyDeleteWhat I'm saying is Carver was stupid to think the audience could buy that Sam Winchester - a very knowledgeable hunter of the supernatural - would automatically believe his brother was dead when no body was present. Dean has disappeared on Sam before w/o being dead. No time was spent on why Sam reached this conclusion, and that was the problem.
It didn't help that, according to Carver, Sam hopped in the Impala two seconds after Dean disappeared, got it fixed up, and then drove around for a couple of months until he hit a dog. I'm sorry but that tale makes no sense given Sam's background and makes Sam seem really indifferent. Then, Dean returns and Sam's all like, "Why don't you hunt by yourself" and doesn't seem happy to see Dean at all. He acted as if Dean interrupted his awesome life!
For me, nothing about Carver's take on Sam and the brothers' relationship makes any sense to me at all. It never will.
I'm saying that Sam wanted to live - as long as his life didn't come at a great cost. The "burden" here was the cost of saving Sam's life - one that both of them now bear.
ReplyDeleteSam was ready to die because he thought that the cost of saving his life would be too high. In Sam's opinion, even though there was no gain in dying, the loss from staying alive could've been great - as it always is - which is why Sam didn't want to choose that option. If Dean had found a way to save Sam without having to pay that cost, I doubt if Sam would've been angry.
No, his believing Dean dead without any evidence and simply running away from it all is what would make him a bad person - if that is what happened. There is a big difference between letting it go and throwing it away.
ReplyDelete"So, Dean doesn't believe ..."
ReplyDeleteDean doesn't believe in Sam when Sam chooses someone else OVER FAMILY. So no, he didn't stop believing in Sam when Sam quit hunting and he wouldn't have stopped if Sam married Jessica.
"You don't know..."
Irrelevant. The fact that he cherishes the moments when he chose others over his family would not change.
"The angels were..."
The angels weren't saying anything that their dad or even Sam hadn't said before. The fact that Dean kept ignoring all of them means he did trust Sam to do the right thing - a trust that Sam betrayed when he went with Ruby.
Sam, on the other hand, had no reason to disbelieve in Dean.
"And why did..."
Sam chose Ruby for the power she gave him.
"Well then, going by your 'logic'..."
Except, he had no intention of cutting ties with Ruby. That's making a choice - not postponing one.
Like I said we agree to disagree, or to be more blunt: No matter what you say, I'm a Winchester fangirl. Nothing you say will make me a Sam girl and condemn Dean, just to let you know.
ReplyDeleteThe show says it over and over again, for 9 years now, that Dean is who he is, and that he won't change. So all the would, should, could.....well whatever floats your boat, I don't think we'll ever see that on the show.
Same goes for Sam and Dean getting a normal, dull life, also not in their stars, but if you want to hope for it, do so. I find a discussion on that somewhat pointless.
I like both brothers, I do see that both made tons of mistakes over the years, I see the stubbornness, the inability to talk, the sometimes totally lack of understanding in each other, and sometimes I just want to beat some sense into them, and then lock them up in the bunker until they finally have a real talk about just everything, that has happened since Dean asked Sam to join him to look for John. ;)
And after I got over that impulse, I just continue to watch the show and seeing them for what they are. Brothers who fight like siblings do. Does it get ugly and hurtful? You bet, but that is how they are. And in the long run they stick together, whether that might be good or bad for them, its just how things are.
As for Bobby, really? You think what he said as 50-something on family, especially the Winchesters has to be consistent with what he did to protect his Mom from and himself from his abusive Dad? Sorry, I think these are two very different situations. Bobby has changed his point of view how family conflict should be solved over the years, and I doubt he would kill a family member now, if he still were alive and had a family, mind you.
I'm glad SPN hasn't turned into one of the zillion other bimbo shows out there.
Were everything is so disgustingly and falsely happy and glamorous, and all are holding hands and singing Kumba Ya all day (I'm exaggerating of course) while cheat on their lovers, business partners and so on.
Those shows are not worth my time, I prefer to see well acted drama and conflict, and within a family conflict mostly works best. Family does forgive you more likely then anyone else, sometimes even those things none else would. ;) I do believe Bobby was right on that.
"Dean went to get Sam..."
ReplyDeleteAnd the fact that he went to Sam and not to Bobby or Pastor Jim or any of their numerous hunter friends still alive at the moment means that he believed in Sam and he trusted him.
"A goal is a goal,.."
And that attitude is what has led to most of the problems that Winchesters face.
"The thoughts were there..."
That's the point - just because those thoughts are there does not mean they dictate how you think about a person. And in 'Sacrifice', Dean did point out Sam's list of sins but he didn;t say he believed in Sam any less because of them.
"The enormity of the mistakes..."
Trusting Ruby. Drinking demon blood. Not trusting his brother.
And yes, Sam should trust his brother first and foremost. Dean has earned that much from him.
"And Sam chose..."
And he made the right choice then.
Doesn't erase the wrong choices you said he made earlier.
"Apologies,.."
ReplyDeleteYou mean the one where he wakes up remembering his promise to Sam and then goes through the motions of the day while his mind keeps going back to the time when he was hunting with Sam?
"This line right here shows..."
I'd like to think of Sam as a good hunter, who is very much aware of his past mistakes and let-downs and wants to do better by his brother - but I'm not seeing the evidence for it.
"You've given me ..."
And where did I admit that?
"The options I've listed ..."
Not just that, they don't make much sense either. So, its a good thing Sam wouldn't have had to go with your options.
"As long as Sam kept fighting,.."
The war would go on with or without Sam. Monsters didn't stop eating people and Crowley didn't stop making deals. The war went on and people kept dying. When they jumped back into the fray, they actually started saving people.
"In relation to Sam..."
The apocalyptic battles didn't stop either. Naomi's rise to power and Crowley's machinations took place in that 1-year gap. And yes, if Dean hadn't left hunting to honor Sam's wish, he'd have figured out he soulless situation much sooner and probably kept Cas from making a deal with Crowley - and that just makes my point for me. Giving up hunting does not save lives.
"Sam's..."
Not Bobby, Trickster.
"The previous season..."
And once he didn't need that stone, he didn't care anymore?
"In Time After Time..."
He had a lot to go on here as well. He just didn't.
And Sam did play Crowley's game. He left Crowley in peace to torment Kevin and extract all the info out of him - which is what Crowley wanted.
"I'm long past..."
The problem is, I can't think of Sam as being as bad as you are making him out to be.
As for Dean and cage - he didn't avoid the situation. When the time came to get Sam's soul, he figured out a great way to get it out. That shows me he did do research and he did figure a lot of stuff out.
But the point here is that is tried to look for Sam and he tried to find a way to get him out. Something that Sam did not do.
"Sam not acting as you expect him to act does not mean that he’s OCC."
ReplyDeleteActually, that's exactly what it means. I expect Sam to act in-character. If he is not acting in-character then he is acting out-of-character.
"To say that someone..."
You don't have to see things my way - you just to see the implications of your own way of looking at it.
If, as you insist, it is in-character for Sam to take Crowley at his word, the Sam is stupid.
If it is in-character for him not even to try and confirm - then he is callous.
If it is in-character for him to be afraid of being presented with a hard choice - then he is a coward.
If it is in-character for him to have a breakdown and give up every time something bad happens - then he is weak.
I don't think Sam is stupid or callous or cowardly or weak. Which is why I regard all of these things as out-of-character.
"Jody dealt with the Leviathans..."
And then she found out, with Bobby, that Borax hurts them. And then she got rid of the head. And Charlie upgraded to hunting status pretty quickly as well. I'd say both were well-qualified to be the support while Sam looked for Dean.
"And here we go..."
That'd be the case if he was presented with a similar choice in the season and he chose opposite - he never was.
And yes, I'd like to see a specific apology (in words or in actions) regarding choosing Ruby over Dean. We didn't see that in season 5 or in season 6.
"I've already mentioned it... "
I don't remember Dean ever drinking demon blood. So no, they have not done "the exact same thing".
"You see Sam..."
They bother me because your explanations are the ones that show Sam in a poor light.
You do realise that Sam's family included John, and a mother who sold him out.
ReplyDeleteAnd that's what I meant by Dean's belief being conditional. The circumstances are irrelevant, once Sam 'chooses' someone else over Dean, then the belief is gone. Yet more than once Dean has chosen someone over Sam, by the belief in his brother remains. What a shame that Dean can't see Sam as an individual.
And yes, Sam cherished those moments. And I don't blame him. They represented the one thing he never had, freedom and choice. Dean can't ever understand that, so he instead condemns him for his happy memories.
Trust seems to be very black and white to you. If Sam does something Dean doesn't like then he withdraws trust. However, if Dean doesn't something Sam doesn't like then he should still trust him.
Yes, the power to save lives and kill Lilith. Remarkably like Dean this season.
Sam said more than once he didn't trust Ruby and that she was a means to an end. What makes you think he wouldn't have cut ties with her after the job was done? Would Dean have cut ties with Benny were it not for what happened with Castiel and Samandriel?
I agree with most of it - I was trying to give an explanation about how Sam being ready to die is not the same thing as wanting to die.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I disagree with "bringing back the dead" being a triviality. Dean brought Sam back exactly once - when he made the demon-deal - and he had to bear the consequences.
I'd say that a lot of other consequences fall on him as well - he simply believes that they are worth it as long as Sam is around.
Or just that he wanted Sam back in hunting, and this was his way of getting him back. He did expect him to stay with him after the initial hunt.
ReplyDeleteThat's the lesson Sam learned that sometimes the end don't justify the means. Which should make his decision to not try and bring Dean back from the dead all the more understandable.
Dean has spent the last few seasons showing Sam that he believed in his less because of them.
Trusting Ruby is pretty irrelevant now that Dean has trusted and worked with demons more than once. Drinking demon blood he did for a reason. It's not as if he was bored and decided to try it out. Not trusting his brother who wanted to do the same thing that he wanted to do?
Why should Sam trust his brother first and foremost? Dean has made just as many mistakes as Dean, it's just that Sam never shoves them in Dean's face tp the extent that Dean does Sams. And why is choosing Dean the right choice then? Choosing Dean then, and choosing to follow him, led them to the situation they're in now.
"And that's what I meant by..."
ReplyDeleteOfcourse Dean's belief is conditional - why wouldn't it be?
And when has Dean chosen someone else over Sam?
"And yes,..."
Sam has always had freedom and choice with Dean as well. The fact that Sam believed otherwise is not Dean's fault.
"Trust seems to be..."
More like, if Sam makes the wrong choice and/or trusts the wrong person...
Sam has done plenty of things that Dean did not like - that, by itself, is not enough to make Dean doubt his brother.
"Yes, the power..."
And if Sam chooses to point that out - who could blame him?
"Sam said more than..."
Sam "said". Like addicts say that they can stop whenever they like.
Sam trusted Ruby to help him kill Lillith more than he trusted Dean. That was a betrayal.
As for the last question - the answer is yes. Dean always chooses Sam - that's the cornerstone of his identity.
Jeez, I wasn't trying to make you a 'Sam girl' or get you to 'condemn Dean'. I replied to a comment you made, that was obviously a mistake.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the conversation but I'm stepping out now.
That's the one. We knew that internally Dean was suffering from the loss of his brother. We also knew that internally Sam was suffering from the loss of his brother. We saw this in his conversations with Amelia and her father. Externally, they both appeared to be fine.
ReplyDeleteHe is a good hunter, but he's also human (aka 'weak'). And Sam was trying to do better by his brother, that's why he didn't try and bring him back. Because he knew that Dean wouldn't want to be brought back. That was why they made the deal.
You admitted the pointlessness in torturing Leviathans.
He didn't go with your options either. And by doing things his own way he prevented catastrophic consequences to others.
People don't stop dying, but there will always be other hunters. Should those in the army stay in the army until they die or at some stage can they say 'I've given enough'.
That's why the 'Bobby' was in italics. Sam believed he was killing Bobby.
Once the stone was gone, he couldn't go on any more.
Yet, he had endless stuff to go on. So much stuff he didn't even know where to start. Heaven, hell, Purgatory, the earth, bottom of the ocean. leviathan, angel, demon, human, trickster, black magic, white magic, no magic, use powers, don't use powers. It's really no wonder Sam imploded.
Hey, I'm just saying that maybe Sam wasn't written as OCC as you believe he is. His actions can be explained. You don't have to accept them.
"Or just that..."
ReplyDeleteWhy would he want Sam back if he didn't believe in him?
"That's the lesson..."
Not without any exposition on the means. If he had looked into it and found that all means available to him were unjustifiable, then his position would be understandable. But according to you, he was simply worried that the means might be unjustifiable and gave up altogether.
"Dean has spent.."
No, he hasn't.
"Trusting Ruby is pretty..."
Working with demons is not the same as trusting them. And what those demons are making you do matters as well.
"Why should Sam... "
Because Dean hasn't made as many mistakes. Because Dean is a better judge of character when it comes to who to trust. And because Dean has proven himself, over and over again, as being capable of making the right choice when it comes to hunting.
Bar Castiel, Crowley, a siren and he's also chosen Crowley once or twice when Sam asked him not to.
ReplyDeleteAnd he's always been roundly condemned for exerting that 'choice', whether he be not hunting or not listening to Dean.
Dean trusted Castiel all the way through season 4, at the same time that he was working with the angels to bring about the Apocalypse. So, is Castiel worthy of trust?
Sam did point it out (that he was saving lives). It was deemed unimportant.
Yes, Sam said that he didn't trust Ruby. However, they shared a common goal, so they worked together. Dean doesn't trust Crowley, or Meg, yet they often share a common goal and work together.
Ruby had the intel on where Lilith was, and blood. What did Dean have? Nada.
Well, he always chooses Sam, except when he doesn't.
Get him back on side, to see the 'right' way of thinking etc.
ReplyDeleteYou don't think that breaking the final seal and going into the Cage was exposition enough for Sam to learn that the ends don't justify the means?
Not to you, he hasn't. However, keeping Sam on a leash, keeping him in the dark, constantly not trusting him to do the right thing, he has for me.
Sam said he didn't trust Ruby, that he was working with her. However, for both Sam and Dean, choosing to work with someone has to involve a certain amount of trust.
Dean has made plenty of mistakes, they're just never given the same exposition that Sam's have. Nowadays, they're just outright ignored. However, that doesn't mean he hasn't made mistakes.
"That's the one..."
ReplyDeleteExcept, Dean had given up hunting only due to Sam's wishes and he kept looking for Sam.
"He is a good hunter..."
Doing better by his brother would mean looking for his brother and stopping only when he found out that the cost of going further would be too high. Not even trying is just not caring.
"You admitted the pointlessness in torturing Leviathans."
No, I didn't.
"He didn't go with..."
What catastrophic events did he prevent that would've been the necessary consequence of him looking?
"People don't stop dying..."
They can give up whenever they want and for whatever reason they want - but don't pretend they are "saving lives" by giving up.
"That's why the 'Bobby' was in italics. Sam believed he was killing Bobby."
No, he didn't.
"Once the..."
Except he didn't need the stone anymore once Cas took on his damage. So there is no reason why should be unable to go on.
"Yet, he had endless stuff to go on..."
He is a hunter. They always have endless stuff to go on. They figure it out and prioritize - that's what they've done all their lives. That'd be a pretty pathetic excuse for an implosion.
"Hey, I'm just saying..."
And according to your "explanations", Sam is weak and stupid. Sorry, I don't accept that. I'd rather go with him being OOC.
"Bar Castiel,..."
ReplyDeleteSam didn't ask Dean not to choose Castiel and the siren was not a choice. Choosing Crowley might be valid, but they were out of options then.
"And he's always been..."
Only when it led to bad results. Which is as it should be. Freedom of choice does not mean you won't be judged on its consequences.
"Dean trusted Castiel..."
Yes, because a) Dean didn't trust Castiel implicitly - he kept on being vary of what the angels were after and b) once Cas learned the truth, he put his trust in Dean and rebelled.
"Sam did point it out..."
That's because the relevant issue there was "how".
"Yes, Sam said that..."
Except Ruby's goal didn't make sense on the face of it. She is a demon but wants to help humans because she is "good"? And she wants to kill Lillith because....? The others were pretty clear. Crowley was after survival. Meg wanted to dethrone Crowley and gain power.
"Ruby had the intel..."
So what?
"Well, he always..."
And he always does - so the last part is moot.
"Get him back..."
ReplyDeleteThat makes no sense.
"You don't think that..."
No, because all that wouldn't have helped him much in getting Dean out of purgatory.
"Not to you,.."
Still not seeing any dark or leashes or mistrust.
"Sam said he didn't trust Ruby,.."
Yeah, but he didn't mean it.
"Dean has made plenty..."
Such as...?
These were Sam's wishes because he knew that Dean would try and get him back, and there would be huge consequences to that.
ReplyDeleteWhat would make the cost too high? I mean, if the cost was to sacrifice an innocent person, would that be too high? If the cost was to release Lucifer would that be too high? I mean, he did defeat him before. Should he release him now in order to save Dean and then believe he could put him back in the Cage again?
The catastrophic events he would have prevented would have been the end result of however far he was willing to go to get Dean.
The ritual involved blood. 'Bobby' offered it up. Sam staked him. He wasn't certain it wasn't Bobby. And as the Trickster said, "This obsession to save Dean? The way you two keep sacrificing yourselves for each other? Nothing good comes out of it. Just blood and pain. Dean's your weakness. And the bad guys know it, too. It's gonna be the death of you, Sam. Sometimes you just gotta let people go." Seems that Sam did learn the Tricksters lessons.
When they hunt, they usually have a direction to go in. May I ask, have you ever found yourself the night before a hugely important exam and you've a multitude of books in front of you and you don't even know where to start?
Well, then Sam is OCC again this season, because he's said that, in the same circumstances, he wouldn't do the same thing that Dean did.
The Sam of season 8 is not the same Sam of season 3. And he shouldn't be expected to be.
ReplyDeleteSam suffered a breakdown. I don't think he's weak or callous or stupid or whatever, I think he's human.
She found out about the Borax while washing the floor, not on a hunt. Charlie is Charlie. There's no explaining how she went to being the superdedooperest hunter on the planet.
Nor have we seen an apology from Dean for choosing Benny. Sam show Dean via his actions. Dean merely denied he did it.
This season Dean very willingly took on the Mark of Cain, a supernatural power, like Sam. He, like Sam, was unaware of the consequences. Unlike Sam, Dean didn't need any persuading.
To me, they present Sam and his actions in an understandable light. I get a bit bored of hearing 'He's OCC' the whole time when it comes to Sam. There have been volumes written about Sam not looking for Dean, and it's not all 'Oh, he's OCC'.
"These were Sam's..."
ReplyDeleteSo?
"What would make..."
Let's say killing an innocent person would be the high cost - but Sam there is no indication that Sam would've had to do that.
"The catastrophic events..."
And as it turns out, there were no catastrophic results from getting Dean back - so there was nothing to worry about.
"The ritual involved blood... "
And while he staked him, he was sure that it was the trickster.
"When they hunt,..."
I have and I figure it out by judging what's relevant and prioritizing - something that Sam should've done instead of skipping the exam altogether.
"Well, then Sam is..."
His actions this season say the opposite.
To get him back into hunting. For Dean hunting was the best thing out there, he couldn't understand why Sam didn't like it. So he brought him back on a hunt.
ReplyDeleteIt did show Sam about monumental consequences.
That's fine, I do.
How do you know he didn't mean it? Is it because he didn't say it?
Such as making the deal in the first place, the deal that kicked the whole thing off?
"The Sam of season 8..."
ReplyDeleteCan we atleast expect him to be similar to the Sam of season 7?
"Sam suffered a breakdown..."
A breakdown for no good reason and one completely different from his previous ones? That's a poor excuse.
"She found out..."
So? All it says is that they were good options for backup.
"Nor have we seen..."
Because Dean didn't choose Benny. Nothing to apologize for.
"This season Dean very... "
So he might be making the same mistake that Sam did back in season 4 - but what he might be doing now does not affect his record of previous seasons.
"To me, they present..."
Which means, in your view, Sam is stupid and weak and cowardly - and that is OOC for me.
And when Lucifer rising was happening imminently, and Dean had no plan and no intel, do you not think they were also out of options then?
ReplyDeleteSo intentions don't matter, just consequences? That's pretty sad. So Dean wouldn't have been bothered if Sam did 'chose' Ruby if it did in fact stop Lucifer from rising?
Castiel knew the truth long before he got his final fit of conscience.
Yes, because for Sam then, the ends justified the means.
She's a demon who wanted Lilith dead. Sounds pretty demony to me. Crowley was a demon who wanted Lucifer gone. How does that make any more sense than Ruby wan't Lilith dead?
In order to stop Lilith they had to know where Lilith was. Ruby knew.
The last part was a paradox. There have been times when Dean didn't chose Sam, just as there have been times when Sam didn't chose Dean. With both characters, they've had reasons for that.
I hated that retcon too!
ReplyDelete"To get him back into hunting..."
ReplyDeleteBut why would he want that if he didn't believe in Sam?
"It did show Sam about monumental consequences."
But it didn't tell him anything about any consequences of looking for Dean. Which means he had no reason to think that there would be any monumental consequences.
"How do you know..."
Because he trusted Ruby over Dean. If he truly meant what he said about not trusting her, he wouldn't have chosen her over Dean.
"Such as making the deal..."
And why was that a mistake? The apocalypse was going to happen either way - the demons already had their righteous soul to break, they had the way to free Lillith and they had the alternate vessel for Lucifer.
The Sam of season 7 is the result of Sam of season 3. It's cumulative.
ReplyDeleteA breakdown at the loss of his brother. And yes, different. Like I said, people aren't robots. They don't do the same thing the whole time.
Jody was, for me, not a good option. She's have been more of a hindrance than a help. And dragging her into a fight she was not trained for would have pretty much guaranteed her death.
That right, I forgot you don't think that Dean walking out the door when Sam gave Dean the ultimatum means that he chose Benny. I'd beg to differ. A similar ultimatum, a similar action = a similar result.
Well, if you're saying the MoC doesn't count, then Dean dealt a demon long before Sam dealt with a demon. He knew it was wrong to do so and he did it anyway. Does that count?
You say stupid, weak and cowardly, I say human.
"And when Lucifer..."
ReplyDeleteClearly no - since Sam spent a lot of time researching where Lillith was.
"So intentions don't matter..."
Betraying your brother is a bad result which matters on its own.
"Castiel knew the truth..."
No, he didn't.
"Yes, because for Sam then..."
Which was a mistake on his part.
"She's a demon who wanted Lilith dead...."
Because there was no motivation behind it.
"Ruby knew."
No she didn't, or atleast, she didn't tell Sam that. They had to figure it out.
"The last part was a paradox..."
That's not a paradox. And Dean has always chosen Sam.
So, it shows that Sam considers consequences of actions.
ReplyDeleteAnd if he was presented with that scenario what should he have done? One stranger vs the life of Dean? Hell, a mini-Apocalypse vs the life of Dean.
Dean got back from the inside, Purgatory wasn't ripped open and there were no deals etc made so he could get out.
He was half sure it was the Trickster, he wasn't convinced.
How do you what's relevant and what to prioritise?
He hasn't been presented with the same opportunity as Dean this season so his actions can't say opposite.
"The Sam of season 7"
ReplyDeleteAnd Sam of season 7 doesn't abandon his brother.
"A breakdown..."
A breakdown that was causeless and OOC.
"Jody was..."
She was trained as a cop and the rest she seems capable of picking up quickly.
"That right, I forgot..."
Beg all you like, its still different. Benny wasn't outside the door at the time.
"Well, if you're saying..."
A deal doesn't count either. Making a desperate deal with an enemy you don't trust for your brother's sake is not the same as trusting a demon over your brother.
"You say stupid..."
Then you have a dim view of humanity, if you think being human means being weak and stupid and cowardly.
To work with him. Sure, Sam can be trusted to watch his back on a hunt but until he was fully committed to hunting, until he had both feet in, until he had the same beliefs as Dean then he could he be trusted to do the 'right' thing?
ReplyDeleteThere are always monumental consequences to what they do. 9 years of the show has shown us that.
He worked with her. He trusted Ruby to help him kill Lilith, and she did. That doesn't mean to say that he trusted her wholly.
Making a deal with a demon led to the first seal being broken, the same was as working with Ruby led to the final seal being broken. If it was a mistake for Sam then it was a mistake for Dean.
All the research on Lilith did not tell them when or where. Ruby did.
ReplyDeleteBetraying your brother by not choosing him over trying to prevent the Apocalypse? Question, when Dean made his deal with the crossroads demon, then couldn't it also be said that he betrayed Sam? Dean knew that Sam would never want what Dean did, but he did it anyway.
Castiel let Sam out of the panic room, he knew what he was doing. He knew where Sam would go, he knew the end result, he knew the angels plan. That's how he was able to tell Dean, too late.
Would the end have justified the means if killing Lilith didn't bring about the Apocalypse? One life vs the lives of 6bn?
Wasn't Lilith the demon who Ruby said tortured her? Surely that's motivation.
If Ruby didn't know then how did she tell Sam? The entire thing was planned down to the last minute. She couldn't tell him too soon because she feared Sam would involve Dean. And even with all their precise timing the angels had to get involved via manipulating the voicemail.
A contradictory statement = paradox. You say Dean has always chosen Sam, I beg to differ. The crossroads deal was not made for Sam, or with Sam's best interests at heart, it was made so that Dean couldn't live with Sam being dead so he did something that made him feel better. He had no problem condemning his brother to a world where he would be riddled with the same guilt that he had with John's deal. The angelic possession wasn't done with Sam's best interest at heart, it was done because Dean couldn't do without his brother.
Neither did the Sam of season 8. He believed Dean was dead.
ReplyDeleteNo breakdown is causeless. I've gone through causes earlier, but you might need to scroll around for a bit if you want to be recapped. And Sam did have a breakdown of sorts prior to that, so it's not exactly OCC.
She's a cop, not a hunter. Being able to shoot a gun does not make her capable of facing what they would have been facing. If it was that easy there would be hunters hanging round every street corner.
Ruby wasn't waiting outside the door either. You don't need to be in the immediate vicinity in order to choose someone.
Man, there's a whole lot that 'doesn't count' for you when it comes to Dean! Dean didn't do make the deal for Sam's sake, he did it because he couldn't live without his brother. Sam would never have wanted it, so he didn't do it 'for' Sam. Dean 'trusted' the crossroads demon because she could help him achieve something that he wanted, Sam did the same with Ruby.
On the contrary, I've a very positive view of humanity. I just don't think someone having a breakdown means that they are weak, I don't think being fearful or wary of consequences means that someone is cowardly and I don't think that wanting to stop fighting means that they are stupid.
Thanks for your
ReplyDeletereview. I agree with you on a lot of it. Though I don't think they're gripes, they're
just a weariness with what I'm watching.
For me the biggest problem with Metatron writing
the story is that it calls into question pretty much everything that has
happened on the show since Metatron was introduced, and even before it. If he's
writing the story, or manipulating the situation so that he can write the
story, I don't know which it is, then how long has he been doing it? Has
everything been a set up, or only what happened with Castiel. And if it's only
with Castiel then what about Sam and Dean? It reminds me of three rats in a
maze, going through tricks to get to the prize at the end, which makes the
story very questionable. I don't want to have to watch a show and constantly be
thinking if what I'm watching is real.
Personally I thought Metatrons dialogue at the
start came across as the writers simply dismissing the viewers concerns and
saying 'Well if you like it then it's canon and if you don't its not. If you
don't like it then it's your own fault' and so on.
Metatron might be delightfully devious but I
think he comes across as a cartoon character. He's like a caricature of the
villains you read about (appropriate!) but as a threat to the Winchester I
think he's a bit of a joke and as a 'story' it's boringly predictable because it's been told loads of times.
Dean being the one to interrogate Gadreel wasn't
a surprise. As soon as they started talking about beating the answers out of
him then I knew it was going to be Dean. I was disappointed, but not surprised,
that Sam got sent out of the room when Dean did it because being sent out of
the room, being knocked out and being tied up is all Sam has done this season.
I'm very disappointed with Dean putting sole responsibility for Sam's
possession on someone else. However, once again, I'm not surprised. The show
has a long history of brushing aside what Dean does or putting it on someone
else. I don't see why they should change it now. It also wraps up the possession storyline.
Maybe later in the season Gadreel will come to
Sam for help and they'll work together. Dean is already working with Crowley so
it would be a reversal of season 4 (and I think Carver is all about taking
stories from past seasons!)
The angel storyline and mythology is a mess, and has been for
a long time. Maybe Castiel as the 'leader' was able to heal her or he has
special grace, I don't know. I've got nothing when it comes to the angels. I'm
convinced that the only reason Castiel is the leader is because he's the only
angel whose name we now remember. The rest of the angels all seem to blend into
one. There's 'Castiel' and 'not Castiel'.
About Dean punching an angel unconscious, I
don't know if that was the MoC as opposed to Dean's natural aggression. I don't
think the MoC makes him stronger, it just heightens what is already there (like
Sam and his powers). We've seen it before when Dean beat Soulless Sam past
unconsciousness and he wasn't even breathing heavy at the end of it. Carvers
angels are a lot weaker than Kripkes and Gambles. Sam even managed to rattle
and bloody Gadreel with his single punch. I think what exhausted Dean at the
end was the effort it took to stop beating him.
I don't think that Sam cares for no-one. (On the
contrary I think it's the opposite.) We saw Sam's concern for Castiel in the
speed with which he agreed to the trade. Ditto with Castiel's reaction to the
MoC. I think an OTT reaction to it would have been completely out of character.
Whenever anything major happens now I'm reminded of Dean's 'I guess I'm a
little numb to the earth-shattering revelations at this point." Too much has happened to them to expect something else to not happen to them.
If Dean can't change or won't change then it would be in everyone's best interests if Sam and Dean parted ways permanently. Dean told Sam he'd do the same thing to him again even though he knew that Sam wouldn't want it and knowing that there are always consequences to that. This time what Dean did only affected Sam and Kevin, the next time it could be a whole lot more and a whole lot worse. So Dean's 'This is who I am' is very dangerous. It also shows that Sam was right when he said that free will is just for Deanbecause Dean feels that only he has the right to decide what Sam should do, to the extent that he now controls whether or not Sam can die.
ReplyDeleteBobby might not have killed his father now but he'd have done everything he could to get his himself and his mother away from 'family'. He definitely wouldn't have passed it off by saying 'Well this is who he is. He's been like this for years so he can't change.'
And while family might forgive you, that doesn't mean that you then keep on doing the same thing again and again because the more often you intentionally do it the harder it is to forgive. Being 'family' shouldn't give you a free pass on what you do.
And just to let you know, all I'm doing is commenting on your comment. I'm not trying to convert you to some sort of dreaded dark side.
I think someone went through the episodes and Dean has taken his shirt off ten times, Sam nine times and Castiel three times. Gratuitous deshirting doesn't really fit this show.
ReplyDeleteExperience really is the best teacher!
ReplyDeleteYou're entitled to your opinion, as I am.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to have almost the same opinion as Aline on the Winchesters and Bobby, and I have mine.
I really see no common ground or need for a discussion since each of us sticks rather vehemently with their point of view.