CJ and The ODI discuss a hot topic online right now which is the effect fandom, shipping and social media effect a show and fans experience. Can these aspects effect your viewing of a show. We also take a look at the weeks TV including Game of Thrones, Person of Interest and more
Welcome to a special 3rd birthday podcast where we discuss a hot topic right now and how fandom can effect shows for positive and negative reasons. Does social media discussion effect peoples opinions and spoilers ruin shows for others.
We also round up some of our favourite shows to watch including Game of Thrones, Person of interest, The Following and more.
Can we also take this opportunity to thank all of the listeners, guests and staff on the site for supporting us for the past 3 years. Without all of you we would not be doing this podcast and continuing to do so.
As a birthday present and a BIG BIG favour to us could you visit our itunes pages and subscribe and review our podcast, it really does help us.Go to audio podcast on itunes
As a birthday present and a BIG BIG favour to us could you visit our itunes pages and subscribe and review our podcast, it really does help us.Go to audio podcast on itunes
and help us move up the TV&Movie charts . Also don't forget to subscribe and review!
Please enjoy and follow us all on our Facebook page, Twitter or email us at cjsonic@spoilertv.com
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@STV_Podcast | @TheODI | @CJSonic | @AdDHarris
Can we please ask everyone to listen to the debate section before commenting below where we discuss and explain the topic in more detail and our thoughts and feelings. Please be respectful of peoples opinions in the comments below.
Podcast recorded on Saturday 20th April 2014
0.00 - Introduction / latest news
0.09 - Game of Thrones
0.29 - Person of Interest
0.42 - The Following
0.55 - DEBATE: Can fandom, shipping and social media ruin a show
1.23 - End
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I've had this argument a lot of times. For some reason the majority of people believe that shipping doesn't effect a show one way or the other. In some cases that's actually true. For big shows that can afford to lose the viewers if they piss them off.
ReplyDeleteHart of Dixie is doing worse than ever before. Why? Because they spent the entirety of this season actively pissing off every ship that has ever existed on this show. They brought in two characters that barely anyone cared about to split apart the show's main ship, and it's having an effect.
Now before people hit me with that same tired, and I believe broken logic they keep giving me, I do believe pissing off shippers has a detrimental effect on shows that can't afford to lose the viewers. Does it have a huge effect on big shows like NCIS? Not really. Does it have an effect on smaller shows like Hart of Dixie? Hell yes.
It baffles me how people constantly choose to ignore that. Most spoilers are about ships, most discussions on fan forums, tumblr, twitter, and pretty much every form of social interaction on the internet that has to do with television dominated quite a bit by shippers. Almost all of the fan made videos you'll find on websites like youtube are about relationships between characters.
And yet I've been told over and over again that ALL of that doesn't matter. Whenever I point this out, someone usually tries to shut me down by saying that not everyone who watches a show ships characters. I KNOW that, hence my comment above about a big show like NCIS barely being effected after Tiva was ruined. That's kinda obvious. But it's still a significant number that anti-shippers choose to be willfully ignorant of.
HOWEVER, and this is the important part, I don't believe shippers have the ability to alter the story of a show in any significant way. Anti-shippers like to say things like "They're changing Arrow to appeal to the Olicity shippers" which is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. How exactly have they changed it? By having Oliver sleep with multiple women? Yeah, Olicity shippers are REALLY taking this show in a bad direction.
Just to expand upon that, how many big ships last year ended almost as soon as they began? Almost all of them. So by the anti-shippers amazing logic, writers are giving in to the demands of shippers everywhere by...ruining the ships? Yeah...the complexity of the anti-shipper logic must be far above and beyond my understanding, because that doesn't make a single bit of sense to me. I do kinda find that funny though. Anti-shippers believe that shippers aren't big enough to influence the numbers for a show, but they are big enough to influence the the writing for the show. How does that even work?
If you want the cliff notes version of what I said:
*Shippers can influence the viewership of a show depending on its size.
*Shippers don't have as much influence as anti-shippers think they do, because every ship that was pushed for last year ended in the very same season. Usually within 4-6 episodes.
The same can be said for Vampire Diaries. The lower ratings show fans aren't happy.
ReplyDeleteI think it can go either way. I've seen fans who have hated tv versions of shows and it did seem to affect if the show was canceled after season one or not. Blade The Series and Terminator Sarah Connor are two shows like that. Fans hated them, off they went. But I've also seen where the fans were rabidly passionate about renewing a show, like the original La Femme Nikita. Didn't matter at all. They threw the fans a few badly written eps and still canceled it for good.
I think it depends on who is in charge and whether or not they are sympathetic to fans or even fans of the show themselves. And sometimes, I think things go on behind the scenes that none of us are aware of us and that also affects why a show is canceled. Alot of people were shocked when Angel got canceled. It wasn't just a fan favorite and doing well, it was a media favorite. The press loved it. Still got canned. Sometimes good shows do get canceled, leaving everyone involved puzzled. And I guess that's just the nature of the business. But it leaves fans hesitant to get attached to new shows because we never know if we'll get one or more seasons of it.
For me, personally, if I like a show I'll like it no matter how rabid the shippers for said show might be, and I just try and find quiet, non-drama oriented corners of the fandom to hang out in (not on Tumblr or Twitter, so that knocks two big areas out right there!). I've talked with fans about certain pairings and their good/bad points, but we don't chop each other's heads off for our preferences. So far, it's generally been working for me *Knocks on wood*.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I do find the incessant ship wars obnoxious, and I can see why it would drive some fans away from a show, or affect the quality of the series (for them). I will never understand why people feel the need to insult each other or argue over their favorite pairings. One person likes a pairing, another person doesn't. And some people don't want any characters on certain shows to hook up at all. Not a crime, any of that. Just a difference of opinion. Life will not end if x couple does or doesn't get together on a show, so people need to grow up and move on and support their pairings in peace.
(I read a complaint from someone once where they were upset about a show "shoving" a certain pairing in their face because one of the actors was taking a silly photo with another actor on set. Yeah...that's not "shoving" anything, pal. That's just cast members having fun and taking goofy photos of each other. Learn the difference.)
And I think a lot of fans really need to learn that writers/producers/etc. will always tease the shipper fanbases. They know their comments will get people talking. That's the only reason why they say a great deal of the things they do, make the "promises" they do about a couple (or potential couple). People need to learn to tell when someone is joking and pulling their legs.
Now, having said that, do I think it's annoying when people who work on the show know their comments will stir people up and say them anyway? Yes. Focus on telling your story, guys, quit egging on the obnoxiousness amongst fans. I get they want people talking about the shows...but that's not the kind of talk they should be aiming for. They should be getting talked about for their amazing plots, or well-written characters, or emotionally moving stories, not dumb ship wars. On the one hand, I love that we live in an age where fans can interact more with their favorite actors/writers of TV shows. It is fun to get a true behind-the-scenes glimpse of things, be privy to some fun information, and if the fans, actors and writers are kind in their interactions, then all the better.
But on the other hand, I can see why some people want that fourth wall back up, too. There are some things it's probably better NOT to know about people or shows-not knowing how the sausage is made, so to speak.
Personally I think the showrunners and writers should listen to the fans but if they listen to the fans too much the shows end up being a mess (like it happened with TVD and Once Upon a Time).
ReplyDeleteBut where do you cross the line into "too much"?
ReplyDeleteNCIS isn't a show about romance but I get why Hart of Dixie would lose viewers if they were screwing the main couple for the sake of drama.
ReplyDeletePersonally I don't ship anyone in Arrow and I don't mind Olicity or Olicity happening in the future but it's really annoying that SOME Olicity fans seem to only care about the ship and whine everytime they don't get scenes or Oliver has other love interest. Besides hating every single woman in the show that isn't related to Oliver it's also annoying.
But the Olicity haters are delusional if they think the show is catering to the Olicity shippers. They obviously know the ship is popular because some of their scenes have been more intimate but they haven't taken over the show like some people say.
Good question :) I think it's good to listen to the fans and consider their opinions but it's still the writers story. They shouldn't try to cater to the loudest online fandom every time they want something or complain about something.
ReplyDeleteYou can't try to please everyone because your show ends up being a huge mess.
I agree. It gets so messy when shows end up baiting every and any group within a fandom.
ReplyDeleteHappy birthday guys
ReplyDeleteI can't really listen to the podcast, but I'll give my two cents here: Yes, shipping and fandoms can ruin a show, especcially lately! Because everyone likes the main male character hooking up with the main female character and they like that all the heroes live and all the villains loses and they like black and white, while gray pisses them off, unexpected ships piss them off, storyline twists piss them off. Honestly, I read so many comments of people dismissing those kinds of good writing as bad writing, and vice versa!
ReplyDeleteFor exemple, Game of Thrones: did you guys read the comments on Twitter after the Red Wedding? People hated that storyline twist, saying they'd stop watching Game of Thrones, despite this being the most impressive storyline twist we could ever observe in modern television.
For more recent exemples: Community, 2 episodes ago, 2 characters who weren't really romantically involved declared they wanted to get married. Now, one episode later and this idea was dismissed, it was only to bring up a deeper point (when things go crazy, people tend to find a safe exit) but, until that was revealed, people hated that wedding idea, mostly because of shipping, really. They didn't even bothered to wait and see where the writers were going with it.
Another recent exemple, Agents of SHIELD: One of the main character has been revealed a traitor. And it goes in the way of one of the ship (canon ship may I add) of the show, because now one of the two member of that ship is evil! And guess what: Some people complain about that! While it would make a much more interesting story if the character remained a villain, died a villain and that ship sank; it would create a much better emotional response, both from shippers and non-shippers.
I could go on and on about this.
In the end, writers are the one with experience, they know how to create characters, impressive plot twists, and heck, even actual ships! They should have the liberty to follow their show's vision. Sadly, T.V. is bound to ratings, and ratings are bound to people wanting easy resolutions and all-around happy ships that never sink. So, yeah, in that system, fandoms are ruining shows.
Yes. Example: Beauty & The Beast.
ReplyDeleteNothing has ever turned me off a show quicker than #BATB. Hashtags outside of twitter make me so unreasonably angry.
Yes you are correct, it is a small minority that sometimes give fandoms a bad name and I hope the Networks are wise enough to recognise this. With regards to the article that you mentioned I think that you are missing one vital piece of background information, the writer was once a HUGE shipper of BATB and then once Star Crossed was released she jumped ship. Yes she is well within her rights to do this but I think a lot of Beasties felt betrayed. There was also a lot of upset because she had a go at Beasties for trending on a Monday night when BATB was not airing as this was Star Crossed night. Beasties have had a Monday night trend without fail since S2 and felt no reason to stop the trend. She then called out a star of the show for re-tweeting about the trend - this upset Beasties again because the star in question is such a genuine guy. But thanks for pointing out that 99% of Beasties support the show in the right way.
ReplyDeleteExtreme fandoms and shipping can definitely ruin a persons enjoyment of the show. I've also seen people send rude messages to actors and writers it almost turns into a sort of crazed cult. But for those fans whom aren't crazy it can be good to support a show as a show with a firm fan base can last a long time e.g Grey's anatomy or Supernatural(although I cannot watch that show as the fan base are so annoying). Fandoms can also generate excitement for a storyline or finale which gives actors and the rest of the team a sort of charge.
ReplyDeleteNothing turns me off a show more then when their fandom promotes boycotting other shows. It seems to be happening a lot more of late, and in the past three months I've stopped watching two shows I used to enjoy because of it.
ReplyDeleteTo me the whole "shipping" thing's worst side is that it is usually about quantity over quality and especially the quantity of specific scenes over anything else. The "how", "why" and "why now" became unimportant, reducing the show to an animgif fodder. If there are "shipper moments" the fandom starts fainting over the perfectness of the show, overlooking anything and everything else. In worst cases the creators use this narrow sighted demand to cover their laziness - they know it is enough to throw a bone to the fandom and they will happily forget and forgive everything what happened in the episode or in the story arc.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, happy birthday! :)
ReplyDeleteSecond - gosh, yes, shipping can absolutely ruin a show for me. In the worst cases, the writers are aware of the most radical & active shipper fractions, and try to keep their attention, while at the same time trying to stick to their own story - Once Upon a Time, Supernatural, How I Met Your Mother being the prime examples. And then there's Lost Girl, which tried to couple up all the core characters - an unfortunate experiment which, I dare say, all fans wish to forget.
But even if the writers ignore the shippers and stick to the story they wish to tell, obsessed angry fandoms are a major turn-off for me. Honestly, the immature attitude of some shippers is astounding, and my negative reaction to the shippers translates into a negative reaction to any scenes between the shipped characters. :(
haha as a BATB fanatic i even dislike hashtags in twitter to be honest- but i do think its only a minority who use them unnecessarily :)
ReplyDeleteGret podcast guys and happy 3 years. I'd just like to point out how incredible it is that CJ picks a topic that he knows he will win because it is only really about common sense in that fandoms promote a show in the right way, which is to say not sending death threats to people etc.
ReplyDeleteShipping and fandoms etc can even be done in the wrong way, even when it's being done in the right way. I don't see it very much anymore but a year or so ago I would see the occasional (and I'm not just fixated on pointing this fandom out, it's just what I saw) Beauty and the Beast fan putting #BATB etc etc. on articles that weren't even referencing the show. Now, I like fandoms that are passionate as you guys said, but if I'm reading an article about Arrow, for example, when I go into the comments I want to read comments about Arrow, not other shows. I haven't seen this for a while, as I say, but this wasn't something that would make me want to watch the show. This kind of promotion on general social media (i.e. Twitter) or on articles that are, even remotely about the show is great though, and I don't discourage people from doing it.
As for sending death threats... it's just illogical. As the ODI said it isn't something you want to be associated with. If you don't like something, there's no need to be overly rude, you just have to say 'I don't agree with this article/I don't like this storyline' etc. and you can actually have some good, fun, interesting conversations about that topic - everyone can give their honest opinions and, other than obviously watching an episode, it is the most enjoyable thing about a TV show because you discuss what you love so much. No one wants to be spending half an hour telling their cat why the latest Person of Interest, Game of Thrones, Walking Dead etc. was so incredible, you want to talk to other fans. It's why I love SpoilerTV so much because there are so many people on the site that you can comment and interact with, and even when I'm writing reviews: my latest Person of Interest review is at over 1800 views, yet only 72 comments (of which about 30 are me replying to people). Even if people don't respond, people do read things and can come up with their own opinions, even if they don't put it out there.
As the ODI touched on, social media isn't great when you're watching a show after it's aired, but, as I learned the hard way, if you don't want spoilers of any sort, just don't go on social media, TV sites etc. It is great fun to use social media to interact with people as you're watching, but it is quite dangerous in terms of spoilers.
Anyway, congratulations on three years, and I'm looking forward to seeing what the next three years have in store.
Shipping pisses me off to no end. Some are responsible about it, but some folks forget that there's a larger story involved & all they care about is orgying & over-analyzing minute glances & smiles of their crushes.
ReplyDeleteWell, you don't have to let them ruin your experience. Although I kinda have to admit how fandom can be annoying (BatB anyone?). But I usually only stop watching when a particular show continues to be irritating and frustrating to me. I stopped watching BatB because of that, and The Mindy Project, and Glee. But I will never let an annoying fandom ruin my TV experience for me.
ReplyDeleteI think the writers should listen to fans if it benefits the show and if the people being shipped adds instead of takes away from a story. It really depends on a show, and whether or not getting two people being shipped together makes sense and doesn't dumb down the characters or make them annoying (cough Elena (TVD) cough).
ReplyDeleteThe Game of Thrones thing is kind of funny. Everytime somebody dies the fans throw a huge tantrum but keep watching. The thing is that cable is different from network tv. In cable the writers/showrunners have a lot more control of the show.
ReplyDeleteAnnoying fanbases do that. I was never planning to watch BatB but I now I hope the show gets canceled so the annoying fans can go away. Some other fandoms are also annoying but the BatB fans are everywhere and it's really annoying that they post the same comments over and over again and get incredible angry everytime somebody says they don't like the show.
ReplyDeleteCrazy shippers are the worst. Especially the ones that hope the actors get together in real life and send death threats to the actors that according to the them are an "obstacle" to their ship.
ReplyDeleteThat's true, but she didn't do a U turn in personality because of it. When Klaus isn't around I really like and respect Caroline. She can be a bit judgmental at times, but that fits with her personality she had before she became a vampire and most of the time it's because she's looking out for a friend.
ReplyDeleteElena has been most effected by shipping. She's gone from smart and wise for her age to a desperate person who can't make up her mind if she wants to be with someone who has a temper tantrum and kills innocents every time they don't get their way or not. I have a hard time believing turning into a vampire would make her so weak minded, no matter the excuses.
I rather her be weak physically than mentally.
Yeah boycotting a show just to spite the fandom is nearly just as bad as boycotting a show to protect a show you love.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is not everyone in a "crazy" fandom is crazy. I've been around plenty of Supernatural fans who are just fine. It's the constantly negative and extreme shippers that drive me crazy. But then I just don't read the comments. If I do and reply, I try not to do it for long.
ReplyDeleteIt's as easy as that.
I ran a BATB twitter with 6500 followers. I also run a Star-Crossed twitter with 3700 followers. I thought it would be nice to get the fans of the two shows together to promote CW Monday nights. The Star-Crossed fandom was all for it. The BATB fandom told me that I had one chance in hell to get their co-operation because they were boycotting Star-Crossed. My interest in BATB = zero since that experience.
ReplyDeletePeople just want things to go THEIR WAY. Any other way they're going to complain.
ReplyDeleteI have to admit I myself do it at times. Not often though. I've been pretty lucky where most of the time my "ships" end up together, mostly because I don't go for long-shots.
It's quite bitter to say that. There's always going to be annoying fanbases, and not all the fans in them are annoying. I find a lot of Supernatural and Beauty and the Beast fans annoying but I still watch. I haven't been in the comment sections much anymore though. (I also find Castle fans annoying, but I've never watched the show and with or without the fandom would not cause it's not tempting enough for me to start.)
ReplyDeleteSome people need to get a life.
ReplyDeleteholy shit, HOLY SHIT what an amazing post and I absolutely agree. I'm actually OK with the idea of Swan Queen, I would be ok with Outlaw Queen too, because I'm a grown up person. LOL. With better writing I would be ok with everything! But I still think you nailed it!
ReplyDeletethis part is absolutely spot on:
"I think it's maybe a sign of bad writing if you can't create characters and situations that are compelling enough on their own to incite conversation and passion among fans. If people are only watching your show to see if X and Y will hook up you've made some mistakes."
I feel the same way!
Fantastic post!
ReplyDeleteI agree. Real life is different than fiction and personally I hate when real life affects fiction. For example people getting together in a tv show just because they are dating in real life.
ReplyDeleteHappy Birthday podcasters!
ReplyDeletehttp://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljxlmtHxOe1qeawdho1_r1_500.jpg
Thank you :)
ReplyDeleteMy main problem with the Swan Queen thing is that, and I could be wrong, it really feels like this is an example of a show that's had to add something in to address an ongoing issue in the "fandom".
They could have introduced a new character, had them interact with Regina, allow things to happen naturally and a realistic amount of time down the road have them become romantically involved. Instead they've introduced a story line with the sole purpose of shutting down any possibility of another ship. It's annoying to me that they'd do this instead of just allowing the story to progress how they'd intended and letting the angry mob stew in their online rage. It's also annoying that they'd insult a viewers intelligence with a literal "because of reasons" explanation for something like this.
I don't get the Swan Queen thing at all. They have great chemistry as two characters that antagonize each other and it's fun to watch but again it seems like they've had to cut back on how much screen time Emma and Regina share because of the reaction those scenes will get.
To me it's a prime example of a "fandom" or "shippers" having way too much influence on a show.
Why is Supernatural tagged on this one? :o
ReplyDelete[kidding - you don't have to answer]
Wow, they're horrible! But I don't think you were missing out on a lot. I watched the first episode of second season, the writing was as horrible as the second part of the first season.
ReplyDeleteTrue. I am generally a difficult person to leave a show, I usually stick even if the writing deteriorates a bit in the name of loyalty and with a hope that the writing gets better and the show returns to the glory it had on its earlier run (like SHIELD which I am glad to be loyal to because now it's amazing, Revolution, and some others). But some shows are just persistently bad and terrible (like the shows I mentioned above) and there's nothing I can do but to stop.
ReplyDeleteThe most important thing to remember when you are on any social media site is that you have to be mindful and respectful of the show you are representing on that site. The same is true for any fandom of a show.
ReplyDelete"IMO, if the creative team are dead-set on keeping their vision for the story moving, they won't bother about ships and stuff. Sure, you can give the fans a bone once in a while, but if you give them too much, they'll just want more."
ReplyDeleteI think this is a relevant point and speaks to the point I made about shows ultimately being responsible for creating an environment that allows these type of fans to exist. I have no problem with shows, be it writers, producers, cast, crew etc. interacting with and acknowledging these fan groups in real life but it should never cross over into the actual TV show. It just tells them that if they're loud enough they'll get their way and encourages them to spam twitter accounts, or message boards with their demands.
Tiny little bones thrown to fans are fine. I think in the Vampire Diaries they included a scene of Damon eating an orange because it was something that appeared in the books that fans really really loved so eventually they put it in. But it was a tiny little part of a bigger scene. A blink and you'll miss it kind of thing. It's when they start adding whole story lines or having people do things completely out of character to allow something to happen that you have to start worrying about who is actually steering the ship.
That's fine in terms of maintaining your own sanity and ensuring you can keep enjoying whatever show it is you're enjoying. The problem is that you ignoring the crazies doesn't necessarily mean the powers that be will ignore them and it can still end up ruining your show.
ReplyDeleteMost writers know to ignore the truly crazy people.
ReplyDeleteIf the show is ruined by them, then I'll stop watching if I really don't like it. Or I might just wait it out like I'm doing with a few of my shows, just to see the ending.
I'll stop watching because of what the writers choose to write, not because the fans are talking. I'm not going to jump the gun.
I tend to stick with shows through thick and thin. I like to finish things. But I do have a number of shows right now that I am not happy with. I just want to see the ending if it's good.
ReplyDeleteWell put. All I want to add is that there isn't a single romantic relationship on OUAT which happens naturally after a realistic amount of time. Snow/Charming - was it even a day after they decided they were in love? The Genie/Sidney/The Mirror was in love with Regina from the moment he saw her, but at least the "I want to look upon your face always" line was a hint that he was quite superficial. Hook was pretty much infatuated with Emma after the beanstalk adventure and conveniently turned into the scorned lover getting back at her by helping Cora. Then we have Ariel who fell in love with Eric after seeing him from afar (the most ridiculous one to date). And then there's Cora and the gardner, Leopold and Cora, Zelena and Rumple...
ReplyDeleteIf you think about it, Regina/Robin is actually taking things slow by OUAT standards.
A lot of OUAT relationships remind me of the fairytales though. The traditional fairytales are just as unrealistic. Guess that's the whole reason OUAT isn't either.
ReplyDeleteWell yes, as I said, Once Upon A Time set itself up for this kind of fandom by focusing so much on the fairy tale idea of "true love". None of the relationships are realistic. Apart from the year that Emma and Henry were in NY over the Winter break the whole show has taken place in the space of about 2 or 3 months.
ReplyDeleteAgain this brings me back to the point that ultimately the writers are responsible for the reaction their shows get. You introduce romantic pairings in your pilot episode and you're done for. People have decided from the very start who they're getting behind. If your writing is good enough you can find a way out of this, develop the characters enough to make people rethink their initial opinions and maybe you'll be fine. However, play up the "ships" too much and you've got a show that is bogged down in romantic couplings and all your audience wants to see is scenes between various pairings, regardless of what's going on in the scenes.
There's a post on here, I can't find it now, where someone mentioned quantity over quality. That's exactly right. So many fan groups will put up with any old nonsense as long as they get a scene between their two favourites. Again OUAT is a perfect example of this. People don't seem to care about characters as individuals and are only capable of thinking of them as part of a couple. I mean, maybe Emma should take 5 minutes to process the fact she's found her parents, they're having another baby, a baby that will get all the things she missed out on, she's found her son, a son who got all the things she couldn't give him from someone else. She found the guy who left her pregnant and in jail for some ridiculous reason and now he's dead and maybe, just maybe, she doesn't actually need to be in any kind of romantic relationship right now?!
I'm rambling now again but.... it annoys me too that so many shows have the potential for exploring other relationships. Friends, parents, siblings etc. etc. but they seem to always punt for the romantic ones.
I'm surprised Scandal isn't tagged in this & The Following is. Folks don't actually ship Ryan & Joe do they?
ReplyDeletePersonally, I've always felt that being in a fandom is a double edged sword. On one hand, you get to meet people who share your interest in a show and its fun to analyze sometimes. On the other hand, fandom can bring out the batsh*t crazies in some people especially on Tumblr. There's ship bashing where people attack members of other ships and then there's the overly nitpicky, PC people who complain about EVERYTHING. It's too bad though that shipping/fandom gets a bad reputation in general because of extra enthusiastic people who ruin things for casual viewers.
ReplyDeleteIf you read the description above or listened to the podcast you'll see we actually talk about the following episode :) that is why it is tagged. Funny thing is we do actually joke about Ryan and Joe getting together during the podcast
ReplyDeleteWell I hope you enjoyed the podcast being a first time listener and great comment, thanks for sharing :)
ReplyDeleteWe may even invite you back at some point over the next few years Bradley LOL on a serious note thanks for joining and listening for so long :)
ReplyDeleteThanks, I feel like I have two birthdays now haha
ReplyDeleteHaha you know I'm your favourite really ;)
ReplyDeleteAlways fun to listen.
True I am friends with supernatural fans and they are completely fine. Sadly it's the crazy fans whom give fandoms a bad name and seem to think they speak for everyone.
ReplyDeleteI'm also surprised Sherlock wasn't talked about. The Johnlock shippers are quite vocal.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Euphemia 100% - and that should show how irritating it is. Wishing a show would be canceled so the fans would go away shows how annoying the fans are.. she's not being bitter she is trying to get her point across... Wishing BATB would get cancelled has little benefits to me other than the stupid fans go away and the fact I will never have to fight the urge to throw my laptop on the floor when I read 20 versions of #BATB, #RENEWEPICBATB & #CATnVIN4EVA etc.
ReplyDeleteI thought the same about the Castle fans - any show that wins every single poll grates on my nerves weather I watch it or how good it is but Castle is a good show but the most significant different is how mature the Castle fans are.. they vote in the polls and comment how much they love their show.. they don't spam comments to 'renew' the show, prattle on about how amazing it is in a spammy/hashtaggy way or argue with people who disagree in a juvenile way.
So yeah. BATB irritate me.
Exactly. Last season every poll and every article about bubble shows had at least 30 different comments with those stupid BatB hashtags. It was incredible annoying.
ReplyDeleteYeah, some fans/fandoms are toxic and ruin shows
ReplyDeleteArrow - Olicity fans
Beauty and the beast - Beasties fans
Vampire Diaries - Stelena/Delena fans
Teen Wolf - Sterek fans
Social Media - twitter has become the major culprity.
You must not watch Arrow very often if you dont think that the show panders ( excessively) to Olicity fans. There is nothing delusional about seeing what is obvious. I dont even dislike Olicity, I just dislike the way they are written to please the fandom, its no longer organic or realistically developed. Thats not just annoying to non fans and affect show quality its also a loss to the ship, even though some of the rabid shippers dont realise how they are screwing up their own ship by being so demanding and entitled to the writers.
ReplyDeleteOh, I see. My sound system's a bit fried, so I couldn't hear it. Thanks for clearing it up.
ReplyDeleteI wanted to bang my head against the wall when "Community" fans got in a tizzy about that finale and storyline. I'd been lucky enough to avoid that part of the fandom up to that point and then it was right there and...ugh.
ReplyDeleteThat is truly terrifying, and is a perfect example of the point when you need to sit those fans down and tell them that it's just a TV show, and the actors are not the characters. I know some people get offended when you point that out to them, but it's only because some fail to realize that obvious fact.
ReplyDeleteI can't imagine anyone shipping Ryan & Joe! Haha!
ReplyDeleteI would get so embarrassed when I would see "Community" fans make the most elitist, condescending, obnoxious comments towards "Big Bang Theory" fans. I definitely think that did not help matters in terms of trying to recruit more viewers for "Community". And then I'd have to try and explain to people that not all the show's fans were like that.
ReplyDeleteI'm like that, too. I can't quit a show-even if I'm not fond of the writing or whatever, if I like the characters/actors, that's enough to keep me going.
ReplyDeleteBut I do understand why some people bail, and that's fine, too. Everyone has their limit.
Ugh, that sucks. I think that's a great idea-build up a strong night full of programming to keep people watching their favorite shows AND check out others along the way. It's a shame one fandom wasn't on board for it.
ReplyDeleteWell said. Genuine romantic moments and relationships cannot be boiled down to one gif or one scene. The entire experience, the reasons behind them getting together (and staying together), are what make such romantic stories so beautiful.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think that's why so many romances on TV are doomed when they happen. They deal with the buildup and the "moments", but don't know how to continue that long-term.
Happy birthday!
ReplyDeleteNow, I like fandoms that are passionate as you guys said, but if I'm reading an article about Arrow, for example, when I go into the comments I want to read comments about Arrow, not other shows.
ReplyDeleteI've been feeling this way about the "NCIS" fandom within the last year. I'll go into a thread that talks about various shows, including ones I watch, and suddenly I find myself having to scroll through an endless debate amongst pro/anti-Ziva/Tiva fans along the way. And maybe I'll be lucky to find one post that actually discusses the show I want to talk about. It gets very old, very fast.
Excellent post.
ReplyDeleteOne of my favorite shows has a pairing I love that I know is practically nil in terms of ever actually happening. Would I like to see it happen? Sure, and if, by some miracle, it did happen, that'd be fantastic! Am I going to have a fit that it's not happening? No (especially since I do like the guy the girl in question is already with, so it's not even like it's a question of, "Well, this guy's a total jerk and she should clearly be with the one I want her to be with!")*. I'll just read/write fanfiction about them getting together when I need that itch scratched, and let the show do its thing (incidentally, the show is one that's never once put any of its main characters in a romantic relationship, which I think is quite a rarity).
*That's another thing, too. When it comes to love triangles, if a show must do those, I much prefer it when the person who has to choose between two people actually has a tough choice to make. If you make one guy completely good and one guy a total jerk, it makes the choice too obvious (at least, to me...there are some people who would want the person to go with the bad guy/girl, so...). Let them both be shades of good and bad, and make it an actual, suspenseful debate.
Can we make copies of this post, with the words in bold, and send them out to everyone who has any interaction with social media and make them stick it somewhere where they have to se it every day?
ReplyDeleteI got out of the whole fandom thing when multiple Destiel shippers sent me death threats for asking why they thought Destiel was canon.
ReplyDeleteI have watched every Arrow episode since it started and I don't see this constant fan pandering. They barely interacted in the last episode. They have been some intimate moments and some moments who were obviously written just for their shippers but so far they haven't managed to ruin the show. If they writers actually listened to the Olicity fans they would be together by now and this show would be a romantic one instead of action/superhero show.
ReplyDeletewhy so much attention for a minor group of people who sent unacceptable messages but so little about the majorety of the batb fandom who raised > 15 000 $ for diabetic research, who sent > 30 000 tweets last weekend just to thank the crew, who were having a rose campagn for several weeks now, ...
ReplyDeleteOne of the problems is that the media heavily focuses on "shippers" or on "crazy fans," and that becomes the reality. The truth is that yes, there are "shippers," and I ship some things too, so I'm among them, but this would not get as much attention if the media did not focus on it.
ReplyDeleteI also think some shows embrace "shipping" to try to raise their profiles (Teen Wolf), which opens a huge can of worms, as one of the main couples in fandom (Sterek) is one that the show essentially baited fans over to try to get buzz, and then backed away from once the show became more established. Shows need to take a firm line instead of trying to have it so many ways.
The worse Star-Crossed does in the ratings, the better chance (we know there's almost zero chance, but still…) that BATB has of being renewed.
ReplyDeleteIf it was a solid show, and was not fighting for a spot on the CW lineup, I'm sure the BATB fandom would be more than up for your idea, but as things are, surely you cannot a) be surprised by a response like that or b) blame them?
Pretend it's your favourite show of all time, against a newbie that may take the place of your show in the lineup. Can you honestly say you would react differently? It's always good to see both sides, and to be brutally honest with yourself in doing so.
The CW is more likely to renew a show if it has a strong pairing with another show. It shows that their is a potential audience and lead in. The CW relies on these pairings and BATB being alone and not supporting other shows will possibly lead to its cancellation.
ReplyDeleteAh, the voice of reason. Put that way, you make a very valid point. That's what I like about these forums, they force you to broaden your viewpoint.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately for BATB, it's probably too late but ya just never know...
Cheers
A lot of people loved Terminator the Sarah Conner Chronicles.
ReplyDeleteMost likely because Johnlock shippers are not exactly a good example for the actual theme, which was less shipping and more toxic fandoms. The Sherlock fandom is very "loud" mostly because it is so big, but the majority of it has very strict ideas about what is okay and what isn't. When there were threats send over the inclusion of Amanda Abbington as Mary Morstan, other fans immediately started a supportive campaign.
ReplyDeleteClearly you aren't on tumblr because imo, Sherlock is definitely one of the more toxic fandoms. I can't even begin to count how many times people get accuse of homophobia in that fandom because they don't ship JohnLock but I guess it's not entirely bad.
ReplyDeleteMedia wouldn't focus on these crazy fans if they weren't so freaking vocal everywhere. If you watch OUAT and ever read the comment section of their recaps, its constant flaming over ships and debate over fan service. And maybe it's just me but Sterek was never hinted on the show. I never even knew it was a thing until I joined tumblr and people were losing their mind over it.
ReplyDeleteLike I said: Large fandom. Believing that those are a representation of the Sherlock fans is like believing that all Harry Potter fans are obsessed Harmioneons. I think one should see those people as what they are, small groups which are not regarded particularly highly by their own fandom either. A fandom is than toxic when this minority is so powerful that they dominate the fandom.
ReplyDeleteThere are nice little Sherlock groups away from tumblr and from what I have heard (yes, I'm not as tumblr or twitter, I can't stand the drama, no matter what fandom), even nice little groups at tumblr who stay away from this kind of nonsense.
BTW: Not all Sherlock fans are Johnlock-shipper. Sherlock/Molly is popular, Sherlock/Janine is on the rise, Sherlock/Irene, naturally, and a large fraction of "Sherlock is asexual" supporters. And there is a group which doesn't ship at all but just enjoy the show.
I think he is talking about the fact the show runner/the actors talked about Sterek and bait the fans but they never intended to make it happen.
ReplyDeleteOUAT is one of the worst fandoms right now. But it's also the show runners fault for listening to the fans way too much.
The WD "love triangle" is incredible stupid and the ship war has gotten incredible nasty to the point of insulting the actress who plays the character you don't like. I hope Daryl never gets together with either of them because the shippers are just incredible annoying.
What? That's pathetic. Especially because you asked a legit question.
ReplyDeleteI never said you were wrong though. Of course, in every fandom there are the crazies and the normal, regular fans. On tumblr though, Johnlock is insanely popular and it's not just an outspoken few. Obviously, I'm not slamming the entire fandom. I was stating what I have observed from tumblr. .
ReplyDeleteYou met the wrong people, I'm sorry!
ReplyDeleteIf you ask me, the answer is "because misha and jensen are really really good at eye fucking, and jared is adorkable when he is in the middle and watch the other two rolling his eyes".
;)
Then the showrunners dare to complain when fans are frustrated about their ship not becoming canon. The more I think about it, the more I realize showrunners who interact too much with their fans are actually part of the problem.
ReplyDeleteI agree. I think show runners/writers shouldn't use twitter so much and should stop trying to please everyone. But it's more pathetic when they fight with the fans like Ryan Murphy or Julie Plec. They should just ignore all of that and focus on writing the story.
ReplyDeleteDeath threats because of a ship are pathetic even if the question isn't legit at all...it's an "otp", ffs, not everyone has to see it by definition!
ReplyDeleteBut I think that those who write such anonymous threats are just a very annoying and noisy minority...I know a lot of destiel shippers, both in tumblr and in real life, and no one would ever threaten or insult a non-destiel shipper.
You forgot those who ship all the ships ;)
ReplyDeleteI mean he didn't insult them or anything. I have seen many people insulting popular and controversial ships on tumblr just so they can get attention.
ReplyDeletehow sad ;)
ReplyDeleteI tried to avoid commenting here since any conversation about extreme fans and shipping makes me feel dirty and leaves me with a desire to locate the short term memory part of my brain and scrub with bleach and steel wool!
ReplyDeleteThat said... I think major issues with showrunners listening to fans in anyway whatsoever! Period!
Showrunners show have their vision for their show and stick to it instead of raising their finger to the Twitter wind trying to discern which way it blows on any given day.
That does not mean showrunners should never adjust their stories though. Crazy as it sounds to some, writers and showrunners can sense when something is not working for one reason or another even without fans enlightening them on their errors.
Thankfully most shows I watch are on cable or premium cable where this is almost a non-issue because seasons are filmed almost entirely before the season premiere on TV.
I think the bigger issue in all of this, and one many simply do not want to hear, is the sense of entitlement among some fans has gotten out of control! The instant gratification of social media makes people think their opinion actually matters when it relates to a show they love. Love and enjoyment does not equate to ownership.
It would make me laugh if it was not such a sad thing.
Any show that changes their story because of fan reactions is just not a show I want to watch!
I hear you...my main point is, though, that big fandoms always have more of the crazies. For example, if there is one crazy one under hundred fans, a fandom with one million active fans has to deal with 1.000 fanatics. Because of that, I don't automatically consider a fandom toxic because of some louder fans, as long as I know that there are much more sane fans to balance the crazies out. What is so puzzling about BatB is that a comparable small fandom is so annoying, and not just as tumblr, but also at other websites.
ReplyDeleteThat's simply nuts!
ReplyDeleteFar as I'm concerned, it would be a bit sad if asking the question even angered people...Name calling or threats cross any line of sanity IMO.
I watch a lot of TV, heck a HELL of a lot, and I'm gonna say that in my opinion ships, and the shippers, most definitely can ruin a show. As many people have already said, The Vampire Diaries and Once Upon A Time have become victims to the shipping wars. I've given up on tvd now (cause of the horrible writing more than anything) but I continue to watch ouat. But the ship wars a seriously some of the worst things to ever come out of tv shows. It's vile sometimes.
ReplyDeleteIt's probably with every show that I've seen - even if it's with one pairing. Though The Walking Dead probably not so much - though I have seen one Daryl/Carol + Daryl/Beth argument *sigh*. But that show isn't ship driven, it's plot driven and it's my most favourite show. But then some shows aren't even plot driven, like Supernatural and Sherlock, and yet the fans are out of hand sometimes.
I personally think ships/shippers can ruin a show. TVD and OUAT are big enough example of that.
I was going to watch BatB, but the 'beasties' kept me from watching it; they're so annoying
ReplyDeleteEven Norman Reedus (who did do a fair amount of teasing about these ships in interviews) had enough, as it veered into heavy actor bashing this past season.
ReplyDeleteSterek - yes. They hinted to fans in panels and such that it might become canon or that Stiles might be bi. And then this season, once the show was more established, that went out the window and I think someone at the show even said Stiles was definitely not bi. Yet even then they had a moment for the characters in the finale. It's just kind of unfair to those fans.
Really? You allow the posts of some extreme fans to sway your decisions regarding what you will and will not watch?
ReplyDeleteSome shows (BATB, Supernatural) have quite a few extreme fans, some can certainly be annoying, but I find it very easy to ignore their posts and read only what interests me. I would never let others opinions or personality traits dictate what I watch...
Potentially dumb request: Define "shipping" as it's used in this context please. After listening, I'm still not quite sure what exactly it is.
ReplyDeleteShipping is when fans support or follow a type of relationSHIP on a show. In most cases a lots of "ships" are characters that are not together but fans would like to see them together
ReplyDeleteSo Caskett (Castle/Beckett) and Huddy (House/Cuddy) as examples.
ReplyDeleteIn both of these cases, the couples did eventually get together.
Thanks for clearing that up. I'm usually one of the last people to catch on to the jargon.
Can fandom, shipping and social media ruin a show? YES. Exhibit number 1; Glee. Exhibit N° 2; most teen dramas. I also wonder why the most popular ships are hella problematic (Klaine and Chair, as an example, have very dark undertones). OUAT is a partial example, since the ships are thankfully not a major part of the series and they don't rush them.
ReplyDeleteI felt the need to come back and say what's on my mind:
ReplyDeleteFirst I need to say I believe they can ruin a show, specially since it's the freshest one I'm talking about Beauty and the Beast, maybe they got another season but they also ruined the show for me, I used to watch it, I actually watched the entire last season (mostly cause I thought it'd be cancelled and I wanted to know how they were going to end it) and was annoyed at the amount of fanservice that ruined characters and plots on its way, when it got renewed I just realized I couldn't take another season of trying to debate with passionate people but finding meaningless hashtags and praise to the show in articles where that wasn't even the subject.
Also I got so mad when I found out it was between BATB and The Tomorrow People and they chose BATB just because of the fanbase. I'm perfectly fine with fanbases but those that are only focused on shipping and see nothing else annoy me. Also there is a difference between let's say Hannibal (which ratings aren't that great either because it's not everybody's cup of tea but its quality is out of this world) and BATB which can be fine and enjoiable but you can never say it's a good quality show in an objective way.
Overall that's my opinion, when they get so annoying and/or extreme they surpass the enjoyment of the show that's when they make people tune off. I for one I'm not watching next season and I owe it all to them.
Maybe, but the truth is one watches what one really wants to watch. I for instance watch the shows I really want to disregarding other people's opinions, but some of us, when we're not sure wether to watch it or not we let other things help make our minds, and seriously in my opinion BATB is not a good enough show to make me watch it in spite of annoying comments, it's just not worth it to me.
ReplyDelete