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Supernatural – Episode 9.15 – ‘#THINMAN’ Review

Mar 5, 2014

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There’s a scene in one of the earlier Gabriel/Trickster episodes where Dean is remembering what Sam said to him and hearing “blah, blah, blah …” This is how I feel during a portion of many of the case of the week episodes. I know there’s plot I should be paying attention to, but somehow I … just … can’t.

This was the case through probably a good three-quarters of this episode. I got to the end and couldn’t tell you who or what the thinman was, nor the subject of the drama between Harry and Ed. A second watch and the anvils helped some with the second part. Ed, the Dean in this scenario, lied to Harry about something and now Harry has learned about it and isn’t ready to forgive. I still don’t know what the thinman was though.

This was Sam and Dean’s story being played out by much less attractive and talented actors, set up against a MOTW plot, that unlike earlier Ghostfacer episodes, was neither funny nor scary. This week’s review is going to be uncharacteristically short because I’m going to focus on the only point that really matters, and that is the problems with how the Sam and Dean story is playing out. I usually have a section in my review titled “Good.” Both Jensen and Jared looked exceptionally good in this episode. The touch of stubble with the sleek suits worked well on them. I kept focusing on that. The plot and the anvils, however, need to fall under the “Bad” category.

Where’s the Growth?

Last week I commented that we should be seeing some learning and growth as Sam and Dean work through their issues. We just finished a full hour focused on Sam and Dean’s issues, and there was still nothing that hinted of anything learned. The problem may be that the point Jenny Klein, the writer for this episode, chose to focus on is exceptionally shallow. The betrayal and the loss of trust are the surface issues, and issues that I can’t imagine either Dean or Sam isn’t completely aware of by this point.

When your world is shaken by death, loss, or betrayal, you eventually reach the point of introspection. You look at regrets in your life, different paths that could have been chosen, and if you’re fortunate, you remember this lesson long enough to actually make some changes. There should be more to this story than recognizing that the deception was wrong.

On Sam’s side, maybe he needs to take a closer look at his decision to start hunting again, keep relationships at bay, or back off of missions like completing the trials, just to make Dean happy. We should be seeing Sam talking to someone about regrets he has (not just about Dean) and making some changes. On Dean’s side, he needs to look at why it’s still so important to him to keep Sam hunting by his side. His life is pretty empty, and like Sam, he needs to be thinking about making changes.

There was one point where I think the anvils brought some clarification to a point that’s been confusing for the fandom, and that is why Sam brought up Dean talking him out of completing the trials in a conversation about trust. Ed made up a mission to keep Harry by his side, rather than accepting Harry leaving to have a normal life with his girlfriend. I guess the story we’re being told is that Sam feels that Dean convinced him to commit to the trials to keep Sam hunting, even though Dean wasn’t fully committed to them himself – as became evident when Dean asked Sam to stop them. But anyway, the betrayal portion of this storyline has been obvious and not worth an episode of being replayed by two side characters, with Sam and Dean as the audience. The episode could have and should have tackled something more substantial.

Who Are These People?

The second big problem is with this storyline is what it is saying about Sam and Dean. To buy that Sam let Dean talk him out of continuing a relationship with Amelia, and then talk him out of closing the gates of Hell, is to seriously rewrite Sam’s character from being the independent-thinking and obsessively determined young man we met in season one, to one that is just drifting now without thoughts of his own.  What he wants for himself may not be clear to himself yet, but Sam has always owned his own decisions.  And what about the drama around Amelia’s husband returning? I thought part of why Sam left Amelia was that he didn’t feel comfortable breaking up their marriage. What was the point of that drama if it wasn’t a factor in the end?

On Dean’s side, in season 3, Dean didn’t need to be told that this decision to sell his soul for Sam wasn’t about doing what Sam wanted, it was about what he needed. Sam has been indirect lately, that much is true, but are we really to believe that Dean doesn’t understand that what he did was wrong?

So what are your thoughts about #THINMAN? Were you more generous than I was?

77 comments:

  1. I don't want to agree but the relationship between the boys is written so messed up lately, Dean is shown as the 'selfish brother that doesen't let his younger brother make his own decisions' and Sam is a 'goody two shoes that has never done anything to deserve this'.


    for me the excitement about the boys interactions is gone, I still cheerish the memory of the two bickering like actual brothers. Not Dean saying something and Sam making a sad face and doing a dramatic walk-off.


    I know some will disagree with me on that but lately I'm more looking forward to Crowley and Cas centric episodes

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  2. I'm pretty sure Ed and Harry aren't brothers. But yeah. The anvils did fall pretty hard this week which bugged me. Which was a shame because I've wanted a slenderman episode for ages. But the thinman ghost facer invention was pretty good (it's a shame they didn't mention creepy pasta though. Everyone loves slenderman haha). I liked it until the episode wouldn't stop throwing the comparisons in our face between Ed and Harry and Sam and Dean. We get it. This isn't a dumb audience.

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  3. That was the most boring episode of the whole series. And it's very sad, because the end of the season is close, and there still hasn't been any great and amazing episode yet. I'm sick of Being dissapointed. I know Carver said at the beginning that season 9 will practically be MOTW but c'mon! It's not scary, it's not horror it's only ridiculous monsters that supposed to be funny + no character developing because S and D cannot just sit and talk things out, they have to be angry with each other like a little children, or they will 'get over it' which is even worse.

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  4. 'Fraid not.
    There was nothing at all to be generous about.
    It was a useless ep, good only to showcase the ghostfacers and to reflect the problems the brothers have through two proxies, Ed and Harry.

    An exercise which I'm sure no-one needed to see.
    It would have been far better letting the brothers say these things to each other and ltry to talk through their problems face to face, but Carver doesn't seem to think that's a good idea!
    x
    The problem for me is that Carver is trying to portray the brothers as if they are run-of-the -mill suburban siblings.
    Sam and Dean aren't normal; they come with a backload of problems, problems that Ed anfd Harry for example, don't have.
    We know nothing of E&H's childhood, but Sam and Dean's is unique; include Hell and the Cage in all this, and we see that they cannot be compared to the ghostfacers in any way:
    x
    The truth is that Sam and Dean are wholly co-dependent on each other; if this were not the case, then they would not still be together, period.
    Tthey have had many occasions to go their own way but they have always ended up coming back to each other.
    Maybe that's the question they should be asking themselves. Why do we gripe, go off on pur own, yet end up back with each other?

    Even now, all Sam or Dean has to do is leave. Go off to pastures new. If neither of them do that, it's because, even with all their crap, they want to be together, betrayal or no betrayal.

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  5. This episode left me with a sense that the show is going strong with the whole “maturity” thing because the characters are aging. How Ed wanted to keep going like before even though they are at a point where many find a relationship, career etc. I get that some of these themes need to be addressed. Sam and Dean are in their thirties and it’s natural to question if they (Sam) want to keep living the way they do till they die or if they would like to have a family and so on. It’s sad though because I liked the whole two brothers on a road trip aspect to the series.

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  6. Thanks for the heads up. I'm going to fix that. It's been a long while since I watched Ghostfacers, and this episode was so heavy with the anvils, I just assumed they had to be brothers.

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  7. I don't think Ed and Harry are brothers?

    I don't think they were saying that Harry and his girlfriend were like Sam and Amelia. This episode was so clumsy that if they were, Sam would have said something. I think they had a girlfriend to give Harry a reason for wanting to leave, and for being more angry. Not because of Amelia.

    This was Sam and Dean’s story being played out by much less attractive and talented actors, set up against a MOTW plot, that unlike earlier Ghostfacer episodes, was neither funny nor scary.



    I think AJ Buckley and Travis Wester are attractive enough. I felt like Buckley struggled to get back into the role (he didn't remind me of Ed), but then there were almost no funny scenes for Ed. I thought Wester did a great job, with some terrible dialogue and lots of shifting emotions. He was my favorite part of the episode.


    I agree with a lot of your review. The episode felt slight.

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  8. I felt that way last season, but this season I haven't been as sure if Sam really wants a family or a life away. I couldn't tell if he was just kidding himself with Amelia and he realized that when he left her for good.


    I just wish they'd bring some happiness back if they're going to keep them together.

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  9. I think the writing tends to vary based on the episode. Last week the writing was very sympathetic to Dean and essentially said he was just like Kevin Tran's mother, doing the best he could with a son (brother) who was gone.


    It's all so inconsistent.


    I miss Cas too, and sometimes Crowley. I enjoy MOTW but they often seem so poorly written in recent years. This one had such poor dialogue and a lack of energy.

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  10. It was writing by numbers. I do need anivilicious episode's to that degree , I just want Sam to talk to somebody and a writer who can go there.

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  11. Haven't seen the episode yet but I am one of the fans of the shows earlier seasons who has started to binge watch S9 as in four or five episodes in a row, but feels that season 10 should be the end of the show.

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  12. I thought it was Amelia because of the parallels between the season 8 storyline and Ed making something up to keep him hunting. At the beginning of season 8, there was a lot of focus on Dean not being ok with Sam's decision not to hunt anymore, and Dean had to sell Sam to get him invested in the trials to close the gates of Hell. The fact that Harry's girlfriend represented a normal life seemed to be a heavy parallel to Sam's feelings about Amelia at the time. It's open to interpretation of course, but that was my thinking on this.

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  13. I'm still a big fan of watching Sam and Dean, and when I become bored with watching them, that will be the day I stop watching. There have been a number of episodes this season where the S/D story has been weak, but the interactions between them still good. This one didn't do it for me. I like Cas and Crowley too. Not sure they could carry the show for me though.

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  14. I see what you're saying, but Dean didn't lie to Sam at that time - Sam knew everything and chose to stay involved.


    Sam then chose to stay with Dean and leave Amelia behind, and hasn't mentioned her since.


    I feel like they were just referencing the lie and then stopping the trials, but you're far from the only one who thinks it was about Amelia.

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  15. I think it depends on what they have planned for season 10 and if they get better scriptwriters and better execution of stories. I have to admit I will be surprised if they go past 10 though.

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  16. The best words I can come up with for this ep, in fact the whole of seasons 8 & 9 is LAME, canon breaking, bad writing, drivel. I keep watching because I have loved these brothers so much and keep praying for a return to what started my love affair.....FAMILY.

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  17. I share your frustration.
    The show would still have so much to give if the writers put some heart, soul and passion into their work. :(

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  18. I hope to writers watch last 8 season to remember Sam and Dean characters and events of the series because i think them forget that ???!!!

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  19. I'm with you. I thought it was beyond awful.

    The brothers are being written so ooc I barely recognise them. The 10 ton anvils falling on our heads throughout screaming 'look - what's happening to the ghostfacers is just like S&D' added no insight whatsoever, were as subtle as a...well...a 10 ton anvil, and were clumsily done. I don't even buy that the situations were that similar. D&Ss issue was a life or death one. The GFs was just a lie about a fake case so one of them didn't dump his friend for a girl. Hardly comparable.

    The case itself was a sub par Scooby Doo plot. The story was amateurishly constructed. Did the apparently superfluous scene where the manager chewed out the waiter actually fool anyone? If the Thinman was human how exactly did he 'teleport' into the girls wardrobe from behind the girl, or into the diner from the car park etc? How could a weedy human hold his own against Dean?

    The D&S bits were as depressing, forced, confusing, lacking in pov and ooc as they have been for 4 eps now. We are just repeating a loop. Some external person (Kevin, Cas, Mrs Tran, the GFs) makes some comment or provides a clumsy point / comparison that we're meant to associate with the bro relationship; family is everything, you chose each other, cut the drama it's stupid, some lies are unforgivable yadda yadda. Except you're left confused by these. They shed no light on what the writers see as truth or how Dean or Sam are feeling. Sam acts like a bitter, grumpy child who doesn't care about Dean, only to go into blind panic mode when he thinks Dean is threatened. That has happened 4x in the last 3 eps now. Again anvil much? We get it. Sam still loves Dean. But so what if he can't say a civil word to him, is making no effort to fix things, yet isn't kicking Dean out either. What does he want? No clue. Why is Dean still there? Again no clue.

    We have seen zero, zilch, nada progress, insight or anything resembling the real characters of Sam and Dean (apart from the tiny scene in this ep where they recalled their childhood) for a long time now.

    On a wider note the pacing is all over the place. We are ramping up to the final act of the season and we've been treading (foul, dull, muddy) water for weeks. Are they ever going to mention the Mark of Cain? Where is Crowley? What about Abbaddon? What about Metatron, Gadreel, the angel war? It's been all MOTW plus D&Ss depressing angst-fest.

    I know I'm not the only fan who is completely out of patience with this. I didn't watch 9.14 til yesterday (I thought it was pretty poor but not as dire as this weeks effort). I haven't missed watching an ep within 2 or 3 hours of live since I started watching the show. I only watched this weeks in the vain hope of some light relief. I am on the verge of giving up and I have been a hugely loyal and passionate fan since almost the beginning. I know others feel the same.

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  20. It's good that found more in the episode to enjoy. This just felt flat to me and I needed for the episode to have more substance, but I'm often in the minority around here too in how I view episodes.

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  21. No, he didn't directly lie, unless you consider that Sam (I think) thought they had an agreement to follow the trials to the end - and that maybe Dean was never completely honest about what he was thinking around the trials (that he was only okay with the trials if he was the one who died). But the writing around this is murky. It's not totally clear why Sam left Amelia. According to Cas, Sam and Dean chose each other.

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  22. This was one of the weakest episodes for me. I need something - whether it's humor, realistic emotional development, mytharc, suspense - just something - and this one had none of the above. I liked the previous Ghostbusters episodes, but this didn't feel like much of a continuation of those stories. I think this episode would make it into my bottom 10 of the series list, if I were to compile such a list.

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  23. Last night was the first time I did not watch the ep live, did not watch until this morning, depressing as hell.

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  24. Sam acts like a bitter, grumpy child who doesn't care about Dean, only to go into blind panic mode when he thinks Dean is threatened. That has happened 4x in the last 3 eps now. Again anvil much? We get it. Sam still loves Dean. But so what if he can't say a civil word to him, is making no effort to fix things, yet isn't kicking Dean out either

    I thought Sam was pretty cordial with Dean in this episode. He wanted to work with him. They were able to have a friendly chat about the past. He didn't make any digs this time.

    Which parts seem out of character to you in their behavior? To me they're in character, the story just seems repetitive and depressing.

    If the Thinman was human how exactly did he 'teleport' into the girls wardrobe from behind the girl, or into the diner from the car park etc? How could a weedy human hold his own against Dean?



    Weren't they able to do those kills because there were two of them?


    Dean was likely still woozy from the taser, but I think he was able to take care of himself. If you mean when he was killing the guy at the end, he seemed to be doing that slowly just to do it.


    I do agree that the episodes aren't what they could be (although I really enjoyed last week's episode).


    Crowley and the mark will be back next week.

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  25. I liked some parts too. I think sometimes it's easier for people (well me, anyway) to remember the worst parts.

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  26. I disagree with a lot of this. I saw it differently. First off, I don't like the Ghostfacers but there were moments.The scene where Dean was going to hunt on his own was definitely pro Dean. Sam's eagerness surprised me. I enjoyed the Thinman to a point, but it was easy to know he was not real. Dean snarfing about the treasure trail and the lady gun was funny. I loved Dean's remembering them as boys. Sam really bothered me with I thought Sam''s desperation to save Dean was almost out of character for what he's been doing and saying. Maybe it's just me, but he cried out trying to stop them and he was working desperately to free them. What happened to I'll let you die and the noncaring attitude?


    The reminder of themselves at the end was good.

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  27. Sam was fine with Dean in this episode. Sam never said he would not save Dean he said under the same circumstances in other words he would not put Dean through what Dean did to him . And it is on Sam to fix things why ? also little point in moving forward if Dean is still 4 steps back in his thinking .

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  28. I liked the episode, but then I love the Ghostfacers. On first viewing, I thought I had a concussion from all the anvils that couldn't be avoided; but on second watch, I had different thoughts. I think Dean is digging in, isolating himself from Sam, Cas, and humanity in general. And Sam? He seems oblivious to that fact and just entrenched in his hurt feelings with a slight bit of thawing. Dean is giving Sam just what he wanted; a professional relationship, but I'm not so sure that Sam is happy with how that is working out.
    I can't help but think the heavy anvils were meant to mean something, and not just serve as a recap of the brothers latest spat. First impressions are usually right; I get that, but I kind of feel we are headed for a DarkDean driven by the Mark of Cain, in the finale. I don't expect much movement on that until then, though.
    Of course, I may be silly in thinking that the season has some meaning beyond a teenage coming of age Winchester story.

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  29. Great article, Chris! You touched on a lot that I agree with here.

    What is going on with Sam and Dean? What is Carver trying to accomplish w/this rift? Why is the rift being dragged out? I need some movement w/the story. The things you mentioned that the characters could be reflecting on were great. I would love to see some conversations around those questions.

    I feel we got a bit of movement, but it was abruptly cut off. The fact that Dean was prepared and ready to go off on his own on a hunt demonstrated a break in the stagnant nature of the current setup. I liked that he said he wasn't sure what Sam wanted b/c I honestly feel he doesn't know what Sam wants from him. Dean will never be sorry for saving Sam's life, and I think he would always try to save Sam so they may be at an impasse. I honestly don't see Dean budging on either of those points. But I did like how he was going to leave to do his own thing w/o Sam. That presented some movement in the story b/c the boys cannot continue to live down the hall from each other and not speak. I like that one was ready to do something new.

    I also hated the anvils and parallels. Other than Sam/Harry = right and Dean/Ed = wrong, I'm not sure what were supposed to get from the constant comparisons. I’m still not sure how Ed made Harry lose his girlfriend. It looks like Harry chose Ed over his girlfriend so instead of blaming Ed for
    that, he should really be blaming himself. If Ed presented Harry with a Ghostfacer opportunity and Harry took it, isn’t Harry making a choice? I know some will say, “But it was based on Ed’s lie,” but I would then argue that the Ghostfacers obviously had more appeal to Harry than the other job and his girlfriend. I guess that was supposed to be analogous to Sam stopping the trials or saying yes to GadZeke. . . . it wasn’t too clear. I didn't get an Amelia analogy at all.

    This show doesn’t seem to buy into the idea of personal responsibility. Everything is always someone else’s fault. Dean tricked Sam into stopping the trials. Ed tricked Harry into remaining with the Ghostfacers. What about Sam/Harry were presented with options and made choices? If this
    was really the “last” hunt for Harry, why did he and his girlfriend break up? I’m sure she could understand him wanting to placate his BFF this one last time, right?



    Anyway, great review!

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  30. Sam acts like a bitter, grumpy child who doesn't care about Dean, only
    to go into blind panic mode when he thinks Dean is threatened. That has
    happened 4x in the last 3 eps now. Again anvil much? We get it. Sam
    still loves Dean. But so what if he can't say a civil word to him, is
    making no effort to fix things, yet isn't kicking Dean out either. What
    does he want? No clue. Why is Dean still there? Again no clue.

    Awesome, awesome post! I could not agree more w/you! They had Sam say really harsh things and leave it like he would do nothing to save Dean to only have him flip out each time Dean's in danger?!?!?! We get it! You can stop now!

    As you said, I've been wondering since Sharp Teeth why the brothers are still together, and beyond an uncreative, unimaginative writing team, I still have no clue. I did like that Dean appeared to be ready to go off on his own hunt w/o Sam in the beginning of the episode. That made complete sense to me, and I liked that. I honestly don't see any one remaining in that type of living environment for long!

    On a wider note the pacing is all over the place. We are ramping up to
    the final act of the season and we've been treading (foul, dull, muddy)
    water for weeks. Are they ever going to mention the Mark of Cain? Where
    is Crowley? What about Abbaddon? What about Metatron, Gadreel, the angel
    war? It's been all MOTW plus D&Ss depressing angst-fest.

    Your post has so much truth! This season is beyond boring. Absolutely nothing is happening. All the arcs are either occurring off-screen or have been stalled.

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  31. I LOVED this episode. The return of the Ghostfacers made me happy. The return of guys from season 1 was very effective in consolidating a lot of issues that confront the Winchesters. I think using the two doofusses as ersatz Sam and Dean confronts the real S and D with the question of whether what they do is meaningful or ridiculous.

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  32. I don't know if Sam ever owned his own decisions, his life has been fraught with control and manipulation. From Azazel secretly controlling his life by having demons all around him manipulating him, to Ruby again manipulating him into killing Lilith. To simply John and Dean taking away some of his freedom of choice.

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  33. Since when does caring about and trying to protect someone you love backwards in thinking? I really don't understand how everyone is saying Dean was so wrong in what he did. In my opinion he did the only thing he could. He's not sorry for saving his brother and he shouldn't be...it is who he is. He's sorry for what happened after, but no one ever knows in advance what their actions will bring about. He did the best he could with what knowledge he had. And why is it that Sam (and all his fans) have absolutely no issue with Dean saving Sam all the numerous other times he has come to the rescue. It is only when the rescue goes bad or has unintentional consequences that Dean becomes the bad guy.
    So why does Sam need to be the one to fix it? Quite simply, because right now Sam is the one standing in the way of things getting fixed. His refusal to talk about things (besides wounding verbal jabs), his inmature whoe-is-me pity party, and juvenile silent treatment is all standing in the way of resolution. He has sent the message loud and clear that he doesn't WANT to resolve things. Maybe he can't forgive his brother...fine, but stop acting like your the completely innocent victim in the whole thing. Grow up, get over it, and for peat's sake, accept responsibility for your own actions!

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  34. I totally agree with this post. Of COURSE Dean saved Sam's life and of COURSE he'd do it again. How is that wrong?

    His mistake was in not telling Sam afterwards. But he had no way of knowing that Gadreel was a bad guy or that he'd kill Kevin.

    I love the real Sam. This isn't the real Sam. The Sam I know and love from s1-7 would have understood what Dean did, would have been angry but not like this, would NEVER have accused Dean of selfishness, doing more harm than good, of making him give up the trials etc (effectively wrongly rewriting their history) and, most egregious of all, he would never EVER in a million years not have looked for Dean when he went to Purgatory. JC just doesn't get D&S.

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  35. I agree w/you and Geordiegirl, but I think the idea is that Dean took away Sam's choice to die. Now, how Dean was supposed to know that Sam wanted to die is beyond me?


    Yes, Dean saw Sam willing to go w/Death, but accepting one's fate is different than wanting to die in my mind. The two things simply aren't the same, and I'm not sure how Dean was expected to know he was preventing a death Sam wanted.

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  36. JC just doesn't get D&S.

    No, he doesn't!

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  37. "The brothers situation is so much more complicated than a simple matter of lying and manipulation."


    I agree with this. A conflict of this magnitude could open so many avenues for exploring these characters, but I'm fearing that we'll get the three or four threads that have already been touched upon repeated over an over again for the remainder of the season or until the writers feel it's time to move to the next stage - and there will be nothing meaningful that will come out of this. Hoping I'm wrong, but I'm already seeing a pattern in how the show is dealing with this.

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  38. Sam owned his decisions. That of course doesn't mean that much of what has happened to him has been his decisions - but then a lot of the five-year arc with both Sam and Dean was uncovered to be angel/demon manipulation in the end.


    What I meant by the comment in my article was that if Sam decided to do something like get back into hunting, he would carefully consider it, make a decision, and then not deflect responsibility onto someone else. I think it's out of character that Sam would allow Dean to lead him down a path unless Sam decided to be led (Sam's too much of a thinker for that), and it would be OOC for Sam to blame someone else for a decision he made. Outright deception is another story though.

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  39. Glad you loved it. As they say, different strokes. Please feel free to elaborate what you loved about it.

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  40. I think Harry's anger came from becoming invested in a lie that came from someone he trusted, and making decisions based on that lie.

    I wrote an article a few weeks back that mentioned a string of comments like "I did what I had to do." At the time the line came from Dean, Gadreel, and maybe someone else too. I've forgotten. It was the review after the first episode back after the break, Road Trip. And I believe there was similar language before the break too. I think you might be onto something in saying that seems to be a theme this season - shifting responsibility. And that's fine, as long as the more major characters that we've come to know over the years aren't written out of character to achieve that end.

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  41. I agree that we're headed toward a dark Dean story arc. I have no idea how far they'll take that, but I think we were expected to connect the mark of Cain (murder) with Dean's killing of one of the human bad guys this episode.

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  42. I never saw Sam as being non-caring toward Dean. Being angry at someone isn't the same as not caring, and there have been signs all along that Sam was concerned about Dean. Glad you enjoyed the episode, and feel free to elaborate more on what you saw in it.

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  43. I'm not sure if we are supposed to connect it with the MoC or the fact that Dean has shut down in response to what is going on, or not going on rather, in his relationship with Sam. We saw in "The End" and several other eps. that Sam is something that keeps Dean 'human' and not full hunter mode. He doesn't have that right now so that could factor into what happened at the end of this ep.
    I agree that Dean is showing some movement in the fact that he was ready to go hunt w/o Sam and has shown some growth by telling Sam point blank that he has no idea what Sam wants from him or what to do to make things better. That was a great moment for something to happen. For them to talk. It was the second time that Dean has given Sam an opening to let him know that Dean's ready to listen, or talk. But once again, nothing happened on Sam's end, probably because TPTB need Dean to go darker by becoming even more isolated through all this.
    I have to admit that I didn't look forward to this ep because I'm not a GF fan but the MOTW got me interested as it reminded me of Blood Mary. So I was quickly caught and into it until TPTB decided to parallel the GF's story to S & D's difficulties. Between that and the constant anvils, I became offended quickly and bored.
    The offense was more on how they trivialized the major issues by playing them out with the GFs. I believe we all get that lying is bad. Duh. Even Dean knew that while he was doing it and started to come clean a few times before he was once again reminded of the possible price, Sam's life. To equate Sam's dilemma with Harry's, to me, was an insult to Sam because what happened to Sam, in Sam's opinion, was so very much worse and yet we are supposed to see it as a parallel. Relating Dean's dilemma to Ed's was even worse, IMHO.

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  44. Yeah, but at the end of the day, Harry CHOSE to go with Ed rather than take that corporate job. There must be something about the Ghostfacers and Ed that appealed to him more than the corporate job and his girlfriend.

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  45. Possum, I think Chris was being sincere in her post to you. Everyone has different thoughts, and if you loved the episode, that's cool. I didn't care for it myself, but miles vary as they say.

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  46. "Sam feels that Dean convinced him to commit to the trials to keep Sam hunting, even though Dean wasn’t fully committed to them himself – as became evident when Dean asked Sam to stop them."
    I have to disagree with you, and Sam if that's what he's thinking, on this. Dean was completely committed to the trials and insisted on doing them himself because he knew that death was a very real possibility and he didn't want Sam to die. He wanted Sam to have the life he always wanted if you review his little speech in "Trial and Error". He knew that he'd never be able to walk away from it but that Sam could because he has before, more than once. Dean was committed to the Trials until Sam's life was on the line because he's never been able to let Sam die. Sam was supposed to show him that the light at the end of the tunnel wasn't a train. AND they both made the decision to let it go at the church. Dean asked him and Sam agreed. Just like it was Sam's decision to LIVE through the trials.
    I knew the second that TPTB wrote that Sam killed that hell hound all this junk would happen, including all the Dean 'dislike' and fan-fighting over their favorites. I knew that Sam would be physically and probably mentally compromised and Dean would be driven to extremes to save his baby brother because that's all the life Dean had.
    I'm not saying Dean was right or didn't cross a line. I'm just say that Sam made decisions too and can't rewrite history because things didn't turn out the way he wanted. Yes, Sam has a reason to be upset over what happened and the secrets but he also should explain what he wants from Dean, even if it's nothing. That way we actually know what's going on.
    As sad as it was, I totally agreed with Dean's speech in "Trial and Error" (because that's the way they had been writing him) and thought, although it would have been very upsetting for me, that Dean's end at the end of S8 in that manner would have been for the best because then Sam could do what he always wanted and have a normal life. But we like the show too much and now here we are hoping that both the boys reach a happier, hopefully healthier relationship, although I don't really see that happening until after the MoC is resolved.

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  47. I agree with you. The issue isn't about saving Sam, it is about Dean lying about it. If he had only explained the situation to Sam and then let his brother make his own choice on the matter, than things would have been different. No excuses there. That was were Dean messed up...and big time. So Sam is angry, as he has a right to be. He's hurt...again, as he has a right. What I have issues with is the accusations he is throwing at his brother as well as the high horse he seems to be riding. As though he has never been the one who lied, or deceived, or manipulated his brother. It is all Dean's fault, and he is not taking any responsibility for his own actions/decisions...past or present.

    There are four statements that Sam has made that really got to me. First, stating that everything that is wrong between them is because they are family completely ignores all the heroic and wonderful things they have achieved BECAUSE they were a family…like saving the world from Armageddon, for instance. It’s ignoring/dismissing the positive in the face of the negative. And going on to blame Dean for all the decisions HE made didn't help matters any.
    Second, stating that Dean is happy playing hero as long as he isn’t the
    one getting hurt. Now that is just ignorant and stupid. Even if we ignore
    the whole going to hell issue, I can still argue that the consequences from
    saving Sam hurt Dean just as much, if not more, than it hurt Sam. Especially
    now that he is losing his brother because of it. Even before things went bad,
    Dean agonized and worried about it. It was not some easy, rash, spur-of-the-moment decision for him.
    Third, stating that Dean saved Sam simply for selfish reasons shows that Sam doesn’t really see and understand his brother at all. Not. At. All. Dean loves you, you idjit, and if that's a crime, then Dean is guilty a thousand times over. But I think the more he turns that into a negative thing and pushes Dean away, the more he's going to realize what a true gift he has and will eventually miss it when it's gone.
    Finally, telling Dean that he wouldn’t try to save him if the situation were reversed. I think I understand what he is saying here, but Dean most definitely didn’t. You could tell by his devastated look. And the fact that Sam let him believe that his life meant nothing to him is really upsetting. It shows that Sam wants to hurt Dean in return for the hurt he feels.
    I just can't get past those things. Trying...but so far failing.

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  48. I agree with all of this. This is my issue. I don't disagree that Sam has a right to be angry. I DO dispute that the real character of Sam would EVER say the things he said to Dean in that argument in 9.13. And I DO dispute this ooc retrofix they've come up with that Sam wanted to die. He didn't. He was ok with dying to close the gates ie for the greater good. He's a hero. That's how they roll. That is a very long way from actually wanting to die. And in 9.01 he agreed to Dean's plan for him to live without asking for the details. He did not want to die. That is stupid, ooc and illogical. So the premis of Sam's anger is inconsistent with his character and makes no sense. It is just drama created out of nothing to make the bris at odds - probably because the writers have run out of other ideas.

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  49. Ditto, very well said.

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  50. I’ll share what I liked about the episode.

    I wasn’t taken back by the parallels between the GF and the Winchesters, because I felt when the bad guys chose their ruse to be in the supernatural world, it called in the Winchesters, which places them squarely as
    inhabitants of that world. I have been unhappy for the last few years that the show has appeared to make hunting as something of a distasteful job; all
    their losses, moping over their job, moving the brothers into the very nice stationary set MoL bunker, both of them having girlfriends they lived with for a long stretch, Sam choosing to die rather than carry on – all of that made the brothers appear not to be committed to hunting, but rather hunting because they had nothing else to do. In this episode, with Ed making up his own
    monster that the two amateurs could pretend to chase after, and then the bad
    guys involving the supernatural, it called in the Winchester professionals.

    Also, despite the pounding anvils, I think the episode clearly differentiated between the GF and the Winchesters. Other than the obvious, that the GF are bumbling idiots, I felt the differentiation was made when Dean executed the bad guy in a clean, cold kill. Yeah, Harry had to kill one of them, because Sam ineffectually handled his bad guy by only knocking him out (or down?), leaving him in a position to kill both Ed and Sam, but the difference between Dean’s kill and Harry’s kill was stark.

    The other differentiation came with Harry having the choice to quit; to split up and leave, but the Winchesters are deep into it, and this is where the ‘establishing the Winchesters in the supernatural world’ comes in again. Granted, narratively speaking, Sam has the choice to walk away (and I don’t understand why he doesn’t at this point), but I think we are to believe that Sam has committed to hunting (perhaps last season in making the choice to stay with Dean and not return to Amelia – and then there is something about a legacy, apparently).

    Of course, the differentiation between the trivial making up a monster to keep the Ghostfacers together and Dean’s decisions this season are nowhere close to a parallel, but that; too, is a differentiation in and of itself.

    The one thing I did not like and am friggin’ up to my teeth sick of is that these two top-shelf hunters are repeatedly having to be saved by idiots, teenagers, civilians, or every Tom, Dick and Jane that appears on the show. Besides distracting the killers by noisily showing up at just the opportune time, Sam knocks a killer down and doesn’t incapacitate him, then just stands there while he gets the drop on them.

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  51. I may be wrong, but what I am seeing is that Sam is confused by Dean's reaction his latest pity party (the possession, the lying, Kevin's death, everything bad that has happened in his life -- I am as confused as Dean is as to what it is Sam wants or expects). I don't think Sam realizes that by disowning Dean as a brother, or confusing Dean as to what it is that Sam wants or expects from him, Sam has lost all of his mediating power over Dean. Dean is giving Sam what he asked for; a professional relationship, but Sam is either thawing on that stance or is confused by it.
    Wherever Sam's actions are coming from, he seems oblivious to the fact that Dean is moving on and spiraling downward.
    I don't expect the writers to take Dean all that dark, but I sure am ready for them to. I could use lots more action and lots less angsting, and sooner rather than later.

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  52. I think Sam's point is that for Winchesters anyway, it seems to be easier to die yourself than to watch a family member die. At the beginning of the season, Sam had left hunting but Dean convinced him to come back to help him close the gates of Hell. Sam did it, thinking that they were both in it until the end, however this played out. When by chance, or fate, it was set up that Sam alone could close the gates of Hell and would die, Dean backed out. That's what I meant by saying Dean wasn't fully committed, and I think this is where the resentment is coming from - in this area of the trials. The angel possession is a whole different issue.


    I agree that Sam made decisions, and I think it's more in character that Sam take more ownership of those decisions. But I think he trusted Dean - and a lot of the lessons around what happened in season 4 were around the importance of trust and the two brothers being on the same page - so it's understandable that Sam would have been torn on whether to listen to Dean or not. I think Sam now is regretting that he followed Dean and stopped the trials, against what he wanted to do himself, and it's part of why he's distancing himself from Dean - especially around the brother relationship. But the way Sam is wording this now is muddy and comes across as OOC.

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  53. The whole "I'll work with you but we can't be brothers" is a half-step and not clearly defined. This is what I'm having the biggest issue with because this feels the most OOC. I don't have a problem with Sam being angry, or even saying hurtful things. They're brothers, they get angry, and they have both on occasion said very hurtful things to each other. But I do have a problem with the indirectness of the way Sam has been written lately. Sam has always been the more direct, getting in John's face in season 1 and confronting Dean every time he thought Dean was wrong, so these conditions Sam set about working together as colleagues are confusing, and I can't blame for Dean being frustrated with that.

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  54. some really good points here about the characters. i just find so much of it difficult to understand and some stuff that was just dropped for no reason - i was so sure they were gonna bring up why sam didn't look for dean.

    but i did like the episode. i prefer MOW eps to the stupid angels storyline eps this season. so over then angels.
    great review overall
    would really appreciate it if you guys checked out my review here: http://laurenmidler.wordpress.com/2014/03/06/anvils-and-thinmen/

    would love you all forever :D

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  55. Remember the worst and/or watch the character we are currently angry at with eagle eyes for any more mistakes. I am guilty of that one. Sometimes I know my prejudice makes me misread some of Sam's actions or statements while also downplaying Dean's mistakes. Guilty and know it, but I still do it every week. I just wish the show would move us past this fighting and let me get back to loving both brothers...together. I really hope season ten isn't going to feature some big breakup between them...that might just be too much for me.

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  56. What I don't agree with in this is that Dean was not committed to the trials. How I see it is that Sam ended up being the grunt and Dean was the leader, the cheerleader keeping Sam moving forward on them (along with cheering on other characters) and, in the end, it was Dean that called a halt to them. If I don't believe it in this way, then JA might as well have had the last half of S8 off, because he would have been useless to the story.
    After the Kevin episode, it makes no sense that Sam would be mad about stopping the trials, as all evil people would be mixing it up in the veil, along with Sam. Maybe that is why they changed it this episode to Sam is mad about the lying. Personally, I am as confused as Dean is as to what Sam wants. He wants to die. He wants to live. He's mad about the lying, but Dean lies, Sam lies, hunter's lie. They are all thieves, liars, and con-men. The brothers have always lied to each other. If you think about it, it is when one of them tells the truth to each other is when the most poignant brother moments have happened.

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  57. Very well put, thank you.

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  58. Oh, I agree with this wholeheartedly, especially that Sam's parameters have not been set (a half-step as you say). That is why I am confused as to what he is really mad and/or hurt about.

    I strongly feel that this stable of writers have not bothered to get to know either of the lead characters and don't give the simple thought to "how would Sam/Dean react to this situation." It seems to me that all of them have a cardboard cutout idea of Sam and Dean that turns them into caricatures of what they once were: Sam is quiet, introverted, and thinks things through -- Dean says cultural quips, growls a lot, and likes drinks. That's as deep as they get.
    (Although, these days, any episode that has Dean saying, "SOB," is an winner for me, so kudos to Klein for that one.)

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  59. Do we know that the trials would have prevented bad people from going to Hell? What Metatron did in Heaven seemed to be different than what Sam and Dean were trying to accomplish with Hell. In fact, my memory is a little hazy, but I thought Cas came to the conclusion last season that he was duped, and what he was doing on Metatron's advice wasn't closing the Gates of Heaven but some other spell. But I agree the consequences of closing the Gates of Hell was never clearly defined, and it always bothered me that both Sam and Dean didn't ask more questions last year before committing to it, or at least have been more wary of unforeseen consequences given their history.


    I don't agree with your assessment that Dean was the leader here. This is supposed to be a partnership, and that's been Sam's point for years. It's true Dean had a lesser role in the last third of last season, but Sam had a lesser role in the first two thirds of the season, which focused mostly on Purgatory. The Amelia subplot had no tie to the supernatural. Sam has also had almost no tie to the mytharc this year. Personally I'd love to see the show getting back to writing that keeps storylines for both brothers moving consistently throughout the year.


    On the lying, I think there are different types of lies. Some are closer to white lies ("yes, I'll stay here" - and then immediately heading out the door), which Sam and Dean both seem to expect the other to do and don't get too offended when they tell them. But others cut deeply. For Dean, an example was Sam's decision to go with Ruby. With Sam, a lack of control, or agency, has been something that's scarred him for years with his history with the demon blood and possessions. Dean knew that, so that's why Sam wouldn't be able to forgive so easily.

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  60. Good points. I especially agree with your last paragraph. ;)

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  61. Good point about the emotional impact of the break in Dean's relationship with Sam affecting him. I think it's supposed to be a little of both, which is good to see. The show has always mixed the supernatural with the emotional elements, and that makes it a richer story.

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  62. I think I have some idea of where Sam has been coming from with his statements (and some of what he says I agree with), but that doesn't mean I agree with everything he says. As you mention, just looking at the one statement "that everything bad that has happened to them has been because they are family" (paraphrased) is much more complicated than that. But I don't think I (as a viewer) have to agree with the statement as a whole to be able to see where it is coming from, and accept that that's how Sam feels right now. One of the factors here is Sam is having an emotional reaction because he was hurt. We've seen the Winchesters react emotionally many times over the year. Dean's comments about Benny being a better brother than Sam was meant to hurt Sam because Dean was hurt by Sam's lack of effort in trying to rescue him for Purgatory.


    I think it's ok, and even good, that the characters are written to have emotional reactions. You can accept that they feel that way without accepting what they say as 100% truth.

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  63. Unfortunately, there is a segment of the audience that, um, didn't get it. I've heard plenty of fans raging about how ungrateful Sam is that Dean saved his life. So, yeah, maybe anvils are necessary since Dean apparently wasn't getting it either.

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  64. There are no scary monsters on the show anymore, which is sad. They're all "gray area." I had hopes for Abaddon last season, but now she just seems cranky.

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  65. I thought it was interesting that Ed tricked Harry into staying with him, but at the end, Harry revealed that he'd always imagined that he and Ed would be together when they were old men in rocking chairs. I wonder if this suggests that had Dean given Sam the option instead of tricking him, Sam would have chosen the possession. We'll never know, but it should make Dean realize that he hasn't been trusting Sam.

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  66. I thought it was a parallel to Dean tricking Sam into possession instead of being honest about the plan and trusting Sam to make the choice to stay with him. I mean, Harry at the end revealed that he'd always imagined him and Ed being together as old men in contrast to Ed's fears that Harry would leave him alone.

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  67. Well, if upcoming season/s are just going to be a lot more brother conflict, I'm not interested. This tearing up of their relationship, the lies and secrets, has lost its emotional pull and become tiresome.

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  68. So Sam asked for what happened to him then because Dean cannot help himself .So therefore according to alot of this fandom has no right to be hurt or angry at Dean and is the one standing in the way of Dean getting what he wants which is Sam by his side being fine with everything.

    Putting aside the indulgent victim blaming that this fandom has been doing lets take a look at this. Dean decides that Sam had to live and not for Sam but for Dean , then when Ezekiel /Gadreel comes along and offers him a chance decides that possession was the way to go . knowing full well given Sam's history and fear of not being in control , still does it , then tricks Sam into saying yes , then lies about it for months but thats ok because Sam is alive and over riding Sam's right over what happens to his own body is irrelavant , it doesnt matter because hey Dean will always save Sam .

    Then when Sam's body is used to kill Kevin and Gadreel will not get out Dean realizes it has all gone pear shaped so then decides torture or killing Sam is the answer , so we end up with a Sam with big needles sticking out of his head and two people inside of him at the same time. But it is ok because Dean just wanted Sam alive .

    So now we have a Sam who has woken up to possession by trickery , torture and Kevin dead by his hand but his reaction has not been tailored to Dean and the fandom's wants , Sam cannot hurt Dean's feelings so he must grow up and take responsibilty , or he is being childish , or it is your fault that the brother's relationship is in a mess or he is having a woe is me party .

    Yes I can see where Sam is so wrong for his over the top I hate you Dean reaction which is not happening is coming from because Dean could not help himself.

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  69. Oh, bad example. Dean was under the influence of an anger spirit, but it was still a true statement. Benny is the only person in Dean's life that has not let him down. I'm not sure there are a lot of fans that believe that being brothers is the root of everything bad that has ever happened to the Winchesters; because, even if it has been their greatest weakness, it has also been their greatest strength. Besides, the strength and love of family is what the show has always promoted as getting people through life's chaos, hurts, and hardship.
    It is not a matter of accepting what the character says as 100% truth or not at all. Sam discounted Dean as a person and everything he has ever done in his life. Dean has never made that kind of attack on Sam; and that kind of personal attack is hitting too low, no matter what it is Sam hopes to 'change' in their relationship so that they will be all grown up.

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  70. Good review, thanks.
    I'm glad you brought up Sam's character. That's right, they've turned him into a mindless lil bro who's being played and manipulated by the needy big bad bro!!! It's not Sam. That's the difference between Dean and Sam, Dean was a soldier to John, but for Sam even his love and trust for Dean wouldn't make him to 'obey' him unquestioningly. How can they dismiss his responsibility for his choices and actions here?!!

    They're making it like all the time they spent together wasn't b/c they loved each other, it was a big ugly manipulation. Sam chose to hunt and be w/ Dean b/c he enjoyed Dean's company as much
    as Dean enjoyed his. Except Stanford, his happiest times were when he
    was w/ Dean. We SAW it through 7 seasons.
    Sam had growth, at the end of S1 he accepted that family is more important than job, even the revenge he was so invested on. In S2, first by honoring John and then by finding out about his planed fate he embraced the hunting life. And after that just being w/ Dean was enough for him. There was never a word of normal life after S1. But all these things were thrown out of the window by S8!!!

    About the real reason Sam is angry, Jared said in a convention that Sam was upset b/c of the lying, and that he knows Dean meant well. I think it's true and it should be the problem not 'ready to die'. Of course a brother should save his brother, there's no question in that. I wished they hadn't made Sam suicidal b/c it kinda gave Dean some leverage for his lie (you really don't leave your suicidal loved one to do whatever he wants), but anyway he must have told him the truth and explain the situation to him.
    So why is Sam (read writers) circling this obvious and reasonable motive and suffocating us w/ bro/family-hating speeches? I'm afraid there's another repeat of the mushy-huh?-nonsense of S8 final ahead of us in that we're supposed to say: 'Oh! so that was Sam's problem. Poor thing, he thought Dean couldn't even trust him w/ his own life and it crushed him, so he lashed out like that'!!!!!

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  71. Thanks for the response. I'm a little puzzled why I've seen so much emphasis in fandom comments about Sam being "suicidal." I know the term has been mentioned in interviews, but we've really seen little of this on the show. There have only been a couple of lines from Sam indicating he was ready to move on at a point when he was near death anyway. To me, this was presented as being about choice and that he was denied the right to choose through deception (first by Dean letting Gadreel trick Sam into saying yes, and then by lying to Sam after the fact) - not about Sam being in a state of mind that most people associate with being "suicidal."


    I see the lying, not a separate issue, but as part of the same issue. The issue was that Sam was robbed of his choice - which is a big deal for a character who has a history of manipulation, possession, and control issues. The part about wanting to die was just the subject of the decision that was taken away from him. The lying was the method with which Sam was robbed of his choice.

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  72. I think it was more about the lie in general and consequences of it than a simple Sam/Amelia parallel. Ed and Dean both lied to keep Sam and Harry leaving, and that lie led some deaths that could have been prevented. If Sam was dead Kevin could still be alive, and Harry left the Ghostfacers, Ed wouldn't have made up Thinman and 4 people wouldn't have died. On top that Ed killed a person, which looked it screwed him up quite a bit.

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  73. If I may butt in here, I don't think the issue is that Dean tried to save Sam's life, or that he couldn't know what Sam wanted. The issue that a lot of us have objected to is that Dean seemed to believe that Sam would choose death over being possessed, and lied to Sam when Sam woke up from the coma, and for weeks after, to prevent Sam from being able to make a choice. Of course Dean couldn't have known Gadreel would kill Kevin! I don't think Sam thinks that Dean could have known that either.

    The comment that Sam made to Dean about Dean being afraid to be alone mirrored almost exactly the same conversation they had in 3.1, after Dean sold his soul to bring Sam back. I thought the comment about family causing more harm was about the cycle of the Winchester family sacrificing themselves, only to see a lot more people die in the end. And finally, I don't think Sam said he wouldn't have looked for Dean. He said he wouldn't have tricked Dean into be possessed to keep Dean alive if Dean wanted to die. I elaborated more on these issues in a recent article, if you're interested. http://www.spoilertv.com/2014/02/supernatural-episode-913-discussion.html

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  74. I didn't intend to be condescending at all. I often disagree with other opinions, but that doesn't mean discussion can't be enjoyable. I was just trying to encourage an exchange of opinions. I think you misunderstood my motives.

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  75. chris, please don't be so condescending. It makes you appear very unlikable, though I'm not sure you are not.

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  76. Yes I’m glad that Sam seems to be very motivated to hunt but showing Ed as someone who wants things to be like in season 1 makes me suspicious of where the show is going. Are they going to showcase the issue of “You didn't save me for me. You did it for you.” partly as Dean wanting to live in the past, not accepting change so he isn’t able to let Sam move on or something?

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  77. Geez, I didn't know I would be in the minority. All inconsistency aside, I thought the writing of the story made up for it, making it an enjoyable episode.
    The whole fabricating something up as the thinman online and watching the repercussions as two psychopaths take it up and murder people was heavy and you really felt for Ed. It was refreshing to see a HOTW instead of a MOTW - watching the brothers deal with just two effed up humans for once. Also, how about that cold look on Dean's face as he slid the knife into the kid.
    At this point in Supernatural I expect things to wear thin like any series, but there is still thoughtfulness and emotion behind it all in the writing. A filler episode, but better than a lot of the other filler episodes this season. Lastly, even though the whole brother conflict is getting repetitive, at least there is no chick flick moments! I find a lot of series tend to introduce a girl in the cast somewhere down the line to romance it up and provide some extra conflict. So looking on the bright side, at least Supernatural has stayed true to NCFM.

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