Mastodon Mastodon Mastodon Mastodon Mastodon Supernatural – Episode 9.13 – The Gripe Review


    Enable Dark Mode!

  • What's HOT
  • Premiere Calendar
  • Ratings News
  • Movies
  • YouTube Channel
  • Submit Scoop
  • Contact Us
  • Search
  • Privacy Policy
Support SpoilerTV
SpoilerTV.com is now available ad-free to for all premium subscribers. Thank you for considering becoming a SpoilerTV premium member!

SpoilerTV - TV Spoilers

Supernatural – Episode 9.13 – The Gripe Review

Feb 9, 2014

Share on Reddit

Oh Supernatural, how you make things hard for me.

Just as I think I have an easy review for the week – a harmless one-off episode everyone would enjoy and barely remember after – you shoot a torpedo in the last scene and flip the ocean liner upside down.

By now every reviewer and his/her Rottweiler must have chewed and spat out those last three minutes several times. People have discussed it more than they have discussed the theory of evolution. I’ve seen a few of those reviews and discussions and it’s like the rest of the episode doesn’t even exist.

Not in this sandbox. There was an entire episode attached to that last bit and, as God is my witness, I’m going to talk about it, because this is The Gripe Review and no writer is getting away with subpar delivery just because they blew up the cargo at the end. I’m going to talk about the tag too, but only after I listed the gripes related to the episode, even though I have the temptation to do what many have done and go straight to minute 39:00.

My thoughts on that are at the end of the article in case you like to skip.

Gripe #1 – Amnesia pill until the case of over



Call it professionalism; call it putting reality on hold. There’s still something not quite right about being so much at odds yet putting it all in a corner to hunt a monster in a spa. I’m not saying the brothers should sit around and bicker all day. But when something big happens between two people you expect to see shades of it in all their interactions, even if they are putting a normal front for the public.

In this episode, during the monster of the week segment, we see nothing that remotely indicates Sam and Dean are at odds, despite the last episode ending with a heated spat, and this one heading for a big one at the end. It’s as if they reverted to the Sam and Dean of the previous seasons. Sam even panics and searches for Dean  after he receives a roofied phone call from him. He turns every stone in the place to find and save him. Then at the end he says he would never do it, which makes me wonder if I’m watching two different shows.

Gripe #2 – Are we still Hunteri Heroicing?


As I was watching the episode I was reminded of something that bothered me a lot in the recent seasons: the bit characters and their stupid antics. For some inexplicable reason some of the supporting cast acts cartoonish without being possessed, and it happens quite frequently. This episode it was the husband of the Pishtaco. In the scene where he sits down with the boys his looney toons behavior is quite distracting. Even Sam and Dean were taken off guard by his sudden toon-outs. But then they keep going like nothing happened and I realize we’re supposed to do the same.

One thing I like about shows such as Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones is that even though some of their side characters have a level of wackiness in them, it is never presented as slapstick. The goofiness is part of the character’s personality and is observed, and at times addressed, by other characters. This makes characters real and prevents their actions to jolt the viewer out of their immersion in the show.

What Supernatural does however is like sitcom or anime. A character acts wacky and the only one who is supposed to notice is the audience, who is also expected to laugh. But since Supernatural isn’t a sitcom people don’t watch it with that mindset and scenes like this, or others that we’ve seen throughout the show, feel out of place.

Gripe #3 – Dean’s inconsistent monster prejudice


When Dean killed Amy in season 7 there were debates about his opinion on monsters. People wondered if he believed monsters should be killed even if they didn’t kill humans or were reformed into not killing humans. Since then the inconsistencies in regards to Dean’s view on the subject have been mounting, and the debate goes on.

Dean wouldn’t let Amy live but allowed the werewolf girl in Bitten to take off. That made people assume that his red line was killing people. Then he let the witches in Shut Up Doctor Phil live even though they had killed people, and fans assumed it was because they were simply too powerful. Then we had Garth and his family last episode and again, Dean only killed those of them who had spilled blood. That was when I made the conclusion that Dean only killed monsters who strayed from the straight and narrow path and spared the rest.

The last scene at the spa in this episode debunked that yet again. Maritza – the female Pishtaco – had not harmed any humans. She had even helped a few by giving them a knife-free liposuction. Why did Dean insist on killing her? And why was it Sam who talked him out of it, Sam who himself took such a strict stand against the vampire Benny?

If Dean still believed that no living monster was a good monster shouldn’t they have this conversation last episode? Shouldn’t there have been some kind of dispute over Garth? And shouldn’t Sam see the hypocrisy in his opinion with regards to Benny? Or are we dealing with writers who refuse to even remember what happened one episode ago?

And finally...

The Great Sam and Dean Clusterf*ck of Season 9

Those who have read my reviews know that I’m not particularly attached to a pairing or character. I like Sam, Dean and Castiel, and I like the various interactions between them. It’s these relationships that make the show strong. They have been the building blocks of the show for nine seasons.


I don’t consider breakups a bad thing. It doesn’t always mean the writers/creator are doing something wrong. I was a fan of Dean and Sam’s dispute is seasons 4 & 5, and Dean and Castiel’s fall out in season 6 before it was spoiled in season 7. Done well, break ups are the spice of relationships and have the potential to create riveting stories.

That is not what Carver is doing here, even though the responses I read from his writers on twitter indicate they think so. They reassure the fans that the drama they have created between Sam and Dean will pay off in the end if they just remain patient. Sadly they fail to see what a piss poor job they are doing at creating said drama and how, in the process, they are destroying not only the relationship between the brothers – one of the mainstays of the show- but the characters themselves.

I will try to approach this topic as objectively as I can, to show that the reason I have a gripe with it isn’t because I am hung up on the brotherly bond, but because I consider this bad storytelling on many fronts, and because it is something that can’t be fixed with a hug and make up scene at the end regardless of what the creators think. The writers may count on fans coming back when they finally reunite the brothers (if that is indeed what they plan to do.) But they are blowing such huge, irreparable holes in the ship that chances are, when they scramble to fix things up in the end, the vessel is at the bottom of the ocean where no fan could reach it.

Here are the reasons why I think this storyline will sink the USS Samn’Dean:

Lack of character consistency

Listening to Sam’s speeches this season has been like solving riddles. As I said many times in the past it has been hard to understand what exactly he is saying. After every encounter he had with Dean, a multitude of theories sprang up from fans, which ranged from Sam being angry at Dean to Sam being angry at himself for his failures.


This episode finally set things straight. Now we know what Sam says in clear, concise language. We know he doesn’t want the brotherly bond the way it is. We know he thinks Dean’s actions are selfish and aimed at keeping Dean safe from loneliness and pain, and that he, Sam, wouldn’t lift a finger to save Dean if it came to it.

I will resist the urge to debate why all these assertions are damaging to Sam’s character. I don’t want to turn this review into a Sam is right vs. Sam is wrong argument. The Gripe Review doesn’t gripe about characters but focuses on story and writing mistakes. If the story demands Sam to take that stand and say those words, yet upholds its quality and form nonetheless, I have no problem with it, no matter what the dialogue or action says about the character or what it means to the relationship. We all watched Castiel’s downfall before and that was a good story up until the time it was dropped.


Sam’s story doesn't seem like a good one so far, mainly because his actions and words don’t match what we've known and experienced of him. Sam tells Dean that if he ever got into trouble Sam would not come to his rescue. He doesn't say it in a heated way which could imply he doesn't mean it and is caught in the moment. He says it in a cold, rational tone, like speaking a fact. That fact however clashes with evidence we have seen in past episodes:

-In Bloody Mary Sam tells Dean, “Look, you're my brother, and I'd die for you.”

-In Faith he takes Dean to a shady priest and even when he knows something unethical is going on he doesn’t pull out.

-In All Hell Breaks Loose Part II he says to Dean, “You saved my life over and over, when you sacrificed everything for me. Don’t you think I’d do the same for you? You’re my big brother. There’s nothing I wouldn’t do for you."

-In I Know What You Did Last Summer he summons a crossroads demon to trade his soul for Dean.

-In Mystery Spot he almost turns into a psychopath to bring Dean back.

-In Time is on my Side he contemplates making a deal with Doc Benton to get the secrets or immortality and use them to keep Dean alive, even as a Frankenstein monster.

-In No Rest for the Wicked he fights to keep Dean from going to hell and when Dean resigns to his fate he yells, "I'm not letting you go to hell."


Does that sound like a guy who would refuse to interfere if his brother was in mortal danger? Sam is either lying or the writers have reinvented his character.

I know those were all from the earlier seasons and Sam could have changed his attitude in the interim. But there’s the episode Trial and Error, as recent as last season, in which Sam, after being chosen to perform the trials (a task which Dean insisted on taking) says, “I see light at the end of this tunnel. And I'm sorry you don't -- I am. But it's there. And if you come with me, I can take you to it.” Meaning Sam wants to save Dean not only from the trials but from his own darkness.

Where is his sudden cold attitude toward Dean coming from? Just the act of Dean letting Gadreel possess Sam isn’t enough to make the character do a 180. It didn’t happen to Dean when Sam conspired with Ruby and jump started the apocalypse. Their relationship is too strong in foundation for this to be plausible.

Lack of continuity

Let’s go back to Sam’s speech at the end of Trial and Error, because if the writers hadn’t forgotten it, they’d know that the latest development is in complete incongruence with it.
“I'm closing the gates. It's a suicide mission for you. I want to slam hell shut, too. But I want to survive it. I want to live, and so should you.”
When Sam started the trials he wanted to live. He even told Dean so. The only time he was willing to die was in the church when he was close to finishing them. Dean talked him out of it. Even though I had a hard time understanding the arguments (due to Sam’s cryptic dialogue) I understood that it was a mutual decision. This was later confirmed by the showrunner in various interviews, and recently in script by Castiel, in which they both said “Sam and Dean chose each other.”

If that’s the case then why are we hearing this from Sam now: “I was ready to die. I was ready. I should have died, but you... You didn't want to be alone, and that's what all this boils down to.” How does this work based on what we heard from him before?


I said many times that Sam has the right to be mad at Dean for tricking him into an angel possession. But’s that’s as far as Dean’s guilt in this situation goes. The rest of Sam’s accusations are groundless. Dean didn’t stop him from shutting the gates of hell. That was Sam’s own choice when Dean said he put him before everyone and everything. Dean also had no clue Sam wanted to die. That happened in Sam’s head when he was coma dreaming. How is Dean supposed to know what Sam said to imaginary Death and about his demand to die permanently?

Writers can and should let characters argue and be mad at each other for legitimate reasons. It’s when they throw in everything including the kitchen sink just to add more drama, while logic and continuity flies out the window, that the story falls apart.

Lack of an external story



Of course this is not the first time the brothers have argued. Season 4 had Sam  slowly turning into a demon blood junky and Dean  trying to stop him. In season 5  Sam was trying to keep Dean from saying yes to Michael and sacrificing himself. In both cases however the arguments were part of a larger storyline, one outside the brothers' relationship. The story was there to move things along while the boys struggled with their roles in it as well as their bond.

This season the bickering IS the story since all the other plots (Gadreel, the angel war, the Hell rivalry) are either already over or happening to someone else. It makes for an incredibly monotone adventure for Sam and Dean that has no stakes for the world and no sense of urgency. Why should the world care if the brothers are together or separated when all they do is go from one random case to the next? And what’s the point of watching them fight when nothing they do means anything? It’s as entertaining as watching a couple you’re friends with fight, and not being able to leave the room.

Lack of heart

Both in the Season 4 and Season 5 the fall out in the brotherly relationship had an element of compassion to it, one which made it less unpleasant to watch. When Dean was arguing against Ruby with Sam in Season 4 it wasn’t because Ruby was hurting Dean, but because her actions would eventually hurt Sam. Dean’s anger was for Sam, not against him. Same thing applied to Sam’s argument with Dean over his suicidal ideation in Season 5. Sam wasn’t hurt then. The reason he fought with Dean was because he didn’t want Dean to sacrifice himself by saying yes to an archangel.

Selflessness is a great way to endear a character to the audience. When characters fight, the smart strategy is to make it about them caring about each other instead of caring about themselves. It lessens the nastiness and keeps the viewers sympathetic to both sides. It turns a potentially ugly fight into a heartbreaking one.

Here the fight is just ugly. Sam is mad at Dean because Dean hurt him. Even if he has a right to it it’s a storyline the writers chose to give him. They could have made their fight about something else. Sam could have been mad that Dean once again put his own wellbeing on the line to save him, or that Dean was somehow in danger and acting reckless, and Sam wanted to protect him. Or even - do I dare - something original that was never done before. That kind of fight would have pulled at our heartstrings much stronger and kept us firmly invested in both characters. In contrast this fight is dry and hurtful and has a ton of logical and emotional problems.


When Sam tells Dean, “You are willing to do the sacrificing as long as you're not the one being hurt” it’s both untrue (he did get hurt when he went to hell,) and unnecessarily cruel. There is no point to an argument like this. No one wins and the only result is exhaustion and bitterness in the minds of the viewers.

I know I said I wanted the show to address the issue of the unhealthy codependency but this wasn’t what I had in mind. I wasn’t counting on the showrunner and the writers being incompetent in developing a story for it. If indeed that’s what they are trying to do they are doing a terrible job and should stop, just like anyone who attempts to create something artistic and ends up making a mess should.

This review is late and I don’t know if there’s anything left that the readers haven’t already talked about in other reviews or on various message boards and social media outlets. However if there is something here you want to discuss, acknowledge or dispute the comment section is open for you. It’s also there if you simply want to vent.


Tessa

tessa-marlene.tumblr.com/
twitter.com/tessa_marlene 

124 comments:

  1. "Dean also had no clue Sam wanted to die. That happened in Sam’s head when he was coma dreaming. How is Dean supposed to know what Sam said to imaginary Death and about his demand to die permanently?"
    Ezekiel/Gadreel showed Sam's converstion with Death to Dean.

    Also, I think Sam's words AGAIN can be explained differently.
    If he said just "No, I wouldn't" that would really mean that he would do nothing if his brother will be dying. But, he says "Same circumstances, I wouldn't". So, maybe he wouldn't save Dean if Dean wants to die, like him?
    Sorry for my English. Great review. Very accurate.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Also, I think Sam's words AGAIN can be explained differently.


    Of course, which just makes things even more difficult to analyse, and why I said I won't judge Sam for what he said. At least not until I am absolutely sure of what he said.


    Thanks for the comment.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Thanks for the review. Never thought about the external story and you're right, the bickering is the story. It's like being voyeur to a marriage breaking down. Sad all round and not much left for the audience to invest in. What I can honestly say is, I am no longer invested in them being together, what for? The heart of the show? Not any more.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I couldn't agree more w/you. I found their conversation quite devastating as a fan who has been invested in the show b/c of their relationship. As you said, there is not much for me to root for anymore, and I have no burning desire - at this point - to see them together. In fact, it's not clear to me why they are staying together. They should just separate and go their separate ways.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Couldn't agree more. The part that makes watching not fun is the heart that is missing (as I mentioned in the last part of the article.) None of them are doing this because they care for each other, or anyone else for that matter. Dean is obsessed with the idea of the brotherly bond and Sam is just pissed and hurtful. It's like a nasty breakup that gets worse as the show goes on.

    ReplyDelete
  6. " Sam, wouldn’t lift a finger to save Dean if it came to it." That is not what Sam is saying AT ALL, and I don't understand why anyone thinks this. He says specifically "Same circumstances, I wouldn't do it."

    Sam is standing up and saying you have to respect my boundaries and also saying I wouldn't *screw you over* just to save your life. I love him for saying these things, because they needed to be said. Unfortunately Sam doesn't have the words to make Dean understand that's what he's saying. (if such words exist considering how thick headed Dean is)



    Dean OTOH has me so angered, by his constant, obnoxious indifference to how much he's hurt his brother. The bottom line is- DEAN NEEDS TO CHANGE. If he can't see how these destructive behaviors poison his relationships (and not just with Sam either), and grow up and get past them, I'll lose what respect I have for Dean.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Excellent review. Somewhere along the line, this show started being less about the supernatural and more about The Great Winchester Train Wreck. Despite its flaws, I mostly enjoyed the episode until the perfunctory epilogue dropped its bomb on us. Nauseatingly manipulative, I feel TPTB are more concerned about ratings than the health of their fandom.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Gripe #1 - It does look like it's going to be hitting again from the trailer. It also seems to hit them in regards of the very important mission to kill Abaddon or find Metatron/Gadreel or the other Fallen Angels killing each other and innocent humans left and right.

    Gripe #2 - I've commented on this too many times already. But agree completely. I don't mind a little comedic relief here and there with characters like Ash and even Charlie in her first episode. But lately instead of getting a couple of laughs here and there, it happens in every episode. Even episodes who are supposed to be serious in nature. It's reached the point that I'm surprised when a character isn't given college humor shenanigans to do. Not just supporting characters, monsters and every other main antagonist is written like that now. And then they wonder why no one can take the likes of Metatron as a serious threat. Azazel had his funny moments, but he was still a believable dangerous and dark villain.

    Gripe #3 - They did it with Sam last season and now with Dean. Fanfiction writers have better consistency in AUs/OOC stories than these people.



    Excellent review as always.

    ReplyDelete
  9. " Sam, wouldn’t lift a finger to save Dean if it came to it." That is not what Sam is saying AT ALL, and I don't understand why anyone thinks this.


    Perhaps because more than by words, Sam has proven it by his actions. In season 8 Dean was sent to Purgatory and Sam didn't lift a finger to get him out. It's Sam's choice and I don't blame him for it, but he doesn't score brotherly brownie points either.


    I think your view re Sam vs. Dean is very skewed. Dean made one mistake (and that for the love he felt for his brother) and Sam is acting like everything he ever did was selfish and evil. What about throwing his childhood away to raise Sam? What about giving his food to him as seen in flashbacks? What about leaving Sonny and returning to his family and brother (Bad Boys)? He went to hell so that Sam gets to live and save the world in Swan Song. He stopped his own heart to return Sam's soul to his body. He put everything aside just to be the support Sam needed during the trials.


    Like I said, I understand Sam's outrage over the Gadreel thing, but I resent how much it's blown out of proportion and used to drive a stake between them. Dean did a bad thing this season, Sam did it last season. Why was the issue of Sam ignoring Dean and Kevin and the Leviathans and focusing on romance instead never addressed? How about his actions towards Benny that led to the death of Martin and the downfall of the softhearted vampire? No one put him on the stand for them because as soon as his screw ups were completed the show gave him a quest and everything else was swept under the rug.


    It's really hard for me to sympathize with someone blaming someone else who's pretty much dedicated his entire life to the other person's well being. I'm as against the codependency as Carver seems to be. I just don't agree with the approach he's taken to address it that puts all the blame on one brother, the selfless one.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Someone posted a theory I go along with more than anything else I've seen. The legend of the Mark of Cain states that anyone who bears the mark loses all family. It is possible Sam is under delusionment caused by the mark on Dean. Something big is going to have to happen to get that mark off Dean or for Sam to escape its power over them.

    ReplyDelete
  11. I hope you're right because that would mean an exciting external story and plausible rationale for Sam being this harsh. I could get behind that.


    Unfortunately part of me warns not to be optimistic because this is similar to what I thought about the Sam/Amelia storyline in season8. For the longest time I was certain she was a Siren who had bewitched Sam, which was why he was so obsessed with her and unfeeling toward everyone else. Sadly there was nothing there but a failed attempt at a love story.

    ReplyDelete
  12. I have to agree with Rick D, you are obviously completely misinterpreting Sam's words. Clearly Sam would risk his life to save Dean, and he has countless times over the seasons.


    Sam made a choice to sacrifice himself in order to save countless lives from all the douche bag angels on earth. Sam is right, Dean stopped that from happening out of pure selfishness.


    They have each done things that have led to the death of friends or innocents. One of the differences here is the scale. Sam was sacrificing himself to potentially save all of humanity from torture, enslavement and death at the hands of the angels. For the first time in his life, Sam was at peace. He was making a sacrifice that he felt would counter all the mistakes and blood on his hands.


    I don't care how many candy bars Dean gave Sam when they were kids, that doesn't make it ok for him to throw away Sam's sacrifice and peace of mind. As Sam said, he would not do that to Dean.


    If you watched Buffy, this is similar to when they pulled her back from heaven. At least there, they really needed Buffy, but they were sorry for ripping her out of heaven. Here, Dean's only reason was to protect his brother from harm and he isn't sorry at all, in fact he thinks Sam should be thanking him. Dean is completely oblivious to what he has done to his brother.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Benny is very good line why he never back ? he save Sam, Dean and Cas too , why Dean didn't think about him or didn't try to save him after what he sacrifice for him ???

    ReplyDelete
  14. Actually I was a bit unfair to Dean there. His motivation for "saving" Sam is his misguided sense of responsibility. His father told him to look after Sammy, and that has been his main motivation through all the seasons.


    Sam on the other hand has always been driven by guilt. Originally guilt over the death of his mother and fiancee. Over the seasons that guilt has grown as the deaths have continued to pile up.

    ReplyDelete
  15. I don't understand this mindset. Dean didn't hold a gun to Sam's head saying "Stop the trials or I'll shoot." (as ironic as that would be.) Nor did he put a spell on Sam to force his hand. All he did was talk to him and his talk was sincere not containing lies. It was Sam's own choice to stop the trials. I don't know why we have suddenly gone from blaming him for his mistake with Gadreel to blaming the failure of the trials on him. Is it because the Gadreel thing didn't entail "saving countless lives from all the douche bag angels on earth?"

    By the way you're confusing plotlines here. Sam's sacrifice wouldn't have potentially saved all of humanity from torture, enslavement and death at the hands of the angels. He wasn't closing the gates of Heaven. He was trapping demons so any harm the angels inflicted on earth would still have happened even if Sam finished the trials.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Do you think possibly love for Sam is also driving Dean's desire to "save" Sam? Is that a possibility for you?

    I know some have always stated that Dean's decision in AHBL II was selfish, but I thought it was both selfish and selfless. Yes, Dean wants Sam around, but he also didn't want Sam to be dead. Dean loves Sam and wanted to save his life. Here, Dean knew his brother stopped the trials to live, but was now dying. A supernatural way was offered to Dean, and he jumped at it. Why? Because he loves his brother and doesn't want his brother dead. I really don't think it has anything to do w/Dean not wanting to be alone.

    Anyway, I'm not saying it was the right choice, but I believe it was made b/c of love for his brother. If Cas had not vouched for Ezekiel, I honestly think Sam would be dead right now. I don't believe (if written in character) Dean would allow any only spirit/creature/monster/etc. inhabit his brother's body.

    JMO.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Just in two cases you may hear such lines: Stereotype teenage dramas in which the angry teenager answers his/her parents worries about his/her studies and friends w/ 'you're not worried about me, you're worried about your status'; And in serious cases of skepticism in which the cynical person always tries to find some ulterior motive behind people's kindness


    Very keen observation, and I agree. It's a very problematic line that ignores pretty much all history between them and simplifies their relationship to a teenage level spat. They are both better than this. I don't understand why the writers won't give Sam better dialogue that would express his frustration in a more mature way. Something that both shows his level of intelligence and the fact that deep down he still cares for his brother.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Great point! I'm not sure why stopping the trials is being "blamed" on Dean. Sam made a choice to stop the trials. There's really nothing stopping Sam from taking them up again if that's what he wants to do.

    ReplyDelete
  19. I don't understand why the writers won't give Sam better dialogue that
    would express his frustration in a more mature way. Something that both
    shows his level of intelligence and the fact that deep down he still
    cares for his brother.

    This is what I don't get either! Sam's dialogue was unnecessarily harsh and generally unproductive. That whole conversation was a waste of time! Dean didn't "learn" anything from that conversation other than Sam doesn't love him and wouldn't save him.

    I'm just beyond sick and tired of this forced, fake conflict btw the brothers! Can't we do something new w/them? Here's something - why not show them working together and fighting a common goal?!?!?!!

    ReplyDelete
  20. Ah yes, I am mixing things up there a bit. It was the hell trials, not heaven trials (Cas was woking on those). And Dean talked him out of it just before dropping into a death coma, not after. So, Dean did talk Sam out of his big sacrifice, but that is a different incident from his saving Sam's life against his will. Sam was dying and he was at peace with that, so I still understand Sam being upset about it.


    Still, Sam certainly did not say that he wouldn't lift a finger to save Dean's life. He will still risk his life to save Dean.


    Also, I think you are mixing things up about Benny. Sam now agrees that Benny is a good guy. He was ok with Dean not destroying Benny's body.

    ReplyDelete
  21. "Do you think possibly love for Sam is also driving Dean's desire to "save" Sam? Is that a possibility for you?"



    Absolutely, that is tied in with his sense of responsibility for Sam.

    ReplyDelete
  22. I have long suspected, maloose, there may be dysfunction in the writers' room by the way they continue to present the current brotherly bond as a normal and desirable relationship. Their poor, unprofessional communication skills on Twitter have convinced me that some writers lack the ability to write mature, adult dialogue for this show.

    ReplyDelete
  23. I'm glad you brought up the ep where Dean did Death's job for a day. He was able to make the right decision in regards to not screwing with the natural order when it was about people he wasn't personally connected to in the end. But I bet if they did that same story, where it was Sam who would've died instead, he would've fought tooth and nail against the lesson Death wanted to teach.

    ReplyDelete
  24. I doubt they can have dysfunction in the writer's room when most of them never met each other until that meeting Jared and Jensen called a while back to ask them what in the hell they were doing to the show.

    ReplyDelete
  25. I'm not talking about folie a deux or some other shared psychiatric condition. Roughly 60-70% of the children in America grow up in dysfunctional families. Odds are that some of those writers have either learned "normal" the hard way or not at all. It is not something you happen across. You have to fight for it.

    ReplyDelete
  26. I agree, I think "same circumstances" has to mean something like I wouldn't trick you into giving up your volition. I don't think it has anything to do with not saving Dean if he had the chance. Sam doesn't think his life is worth more than anybody else's, including Dean's.

    But again, multiple interpretations could be put on it.

    ReplyDelete
  27. I think his sense of responsibility for Sam is separate from his love for Sam. I don't think the two are directly related b/c he could feel responsible for Sam but not love him.



    JMO.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Dean does not seem to care how many people die if Sam lives.


    I don't believe this is accurate. Maybe it's just me, but I don't believe Dean would kill a million people just to save Sam's life. We have no evidence to support that statement. We do have evidence to support that Dean would kill Sam if necessary.



    In S4, Dean told Bobby that he would rather Sam die a human than live as a monster. In S6, I
    believe Dean was fully prepared and ready to kill Soulless!Sam after SS tried to kill Bobby. You could see it in his eyes. Dean was not going to allow SS to run around murdering innocent people. In this case, people gloss over Dean's chat w/Castiel in 9x01 but I think it was important. Castiel did vouch for "Ezekiel." I don't believe Dean would have agreed w/the plan if Castiel had told him that Ezekiel was like Uriel or Zachariah and couldn't be trusted.



    And if we examine the times Dean has saved Sam's life, who else has been in danger besides himself? The CRD only impacted Dean, physically. I know Sam was impacted, but I mean the deal only resulted in one person's death, and that was Dean. In S6, Dean killed himself to get Sam's soul back. Again, he was the only one physically impacted by that deal. And he locked up SS the minute he learned that SS tried to kill Bobby.



    I guess one could argue that since Dean encouraged Sam to not finish the trials, he is now solely responsible for every single demon death that occurs in the world, but I'm not willing to put that much weight on Dean. They stumbled across the trials. I see no reason why Sam or Dean should sacrifice themselves to shut down Hell. They didn't open Hell or do anything to cause demons to roam the Earth so why should it be on them to stop it.



    Anyway, my main point is there is no evidence to show that Dean is willing to kill and/o sacrifice living people to save his brother. None of the deals Dean has made in the past were made w/the knowledge that anyone besides Dean would be physically impacted. Maybe under Carver Dean would slaughter a nursery full of newborns for Sam, but the Dean I watched under Kripke and Sera would not.

    ReplyDelete
  29. There's a difference between Sam looking for Dean who is in apparently in danger and if push came to shove allowing him to die, instead making some deal that would have horrible consequences.

    ReplyDelete
  30. I agree. I also think it's easy to say that Sam should feel this way or that way because he wanted to live, when at the moment, Sam is still struggling with suicidal thoughts and feels that he should have died. No wonder he isn't going to say he wanted to live and that's not on Dean. In his mind, he didn't want to live, and he was manipulated into doing so. Until he starts to want to live, then he will likely keep this mindset.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Exactly, Sam won't cross that line that Dean did with Gadreel. He had a chance to save Dean from his crossroads when they found Doc Benton and his journal, but Dean said to that course of action, he would essentially become a monster, and Sam agreed to his wishes.

    ReplyDelete
  32. I think "same circumstances" is very literal in this case. I think Sam was trying to say he will save Dean most of the time. Just not like that.

    ReplyDelete
  33. I agree. I keep seeing season 3 mentioned, but season 3 was also about knowing when not to cross the line. Sam respected Dean's wishes not to be made into a monster. Dean did not do the same this season.

    ReplyDelete
  34. I think they care about each other. They show that in moments when they aren't having these arguments. It's just there is so much writing focus on the conflicts that it goes into a loop.

    I also don't agree that they don't care about anyone else. They care about plenty of people.

    ReplyDelete
  35. I hated what Sam did last season but Benny's downfall was his own responsibility.


    Sam has to live with seeing himself kill someone, someone he cared about, because of the deal Dean made. He's going to have a tough time getting past that.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Sam doesn't feel like it was his choice. He feels like he should have died and he was coerced into living. In time hopefully he will see he wanted to live. For now, he associates it with the coercion with Gadreel.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Also, there's a difference with Sam saying he didn't want to die in season 8, and finding out that he was indeed going to die in season 9, and accepting that. I mean friggin' Death was waiting for him. If you could think of a better sign that you were gonna die, Id like to hear it.


    Consciously he wanted to live, subconsciously he was ready to die. But in the end he did chose to live, only after he found out what Dean did does he realize it would have been the best thing if he closed the gates of hell and died, there might have been a lot less death in that scenario.

    ReplyDelete
  38. I actually think Metatron is a very serious threat. The character, for all his quirkiness, is very dangerous and disturbed.


    I much prefer this to eras like season 7 where you had Dick Roman and Crowley there to posture posture posture all day.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Jensen mostly called it because he wanted to make sure his story wasn't dropped. I'm not sure if Jared even had any real complaints, from what he said.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Those quotes from episodes she uses, are also 7/8-years-old. Sam's clearly a different person now, and he would come to Dean's aid in a fight to save him, but he's put a line in the sand now, dead means dead.

    ReplyDelete
  41. I feel like the show is saying that their currently bond isn't desirable or normal.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Most of what I remember about that episode was how it fetishized Dean committing suicide to save Sam.

    ReplyDelete
  43. And the great part of this is we can discuss it when we have differing views. I thought the ending dialogue added some necessary heart and emotion into an otherwise mundane episode. People, even brothers, grow up and sometimes apart. They also fight. And they fight a lot more than these two and a lot harder too.


    I remember having to tackle a brother at the reading of his dad's will because he was left the mitre saw and he wanted the table saw. Sam is evolving. Maybe he's the one now who makes a near fatal error that puts the world in jeopardy because his head may not be in it.

    ReplyDelete
  44. I did not make the absolute statement that the writers MUST be damaged. I said there MAY be dysfunction in the writers' room, and I am convinced SOME writers lack the ability to write mature, adult dialogue for this show.
    The brothers' bond was stressed but fairly functional until the season four strangulation scene. Kripke crossed a line he couldn't uncross with many viewers with that scene. Through the years, they have continued to up the stakes until Carver's Sam failed to look for Dean or help Kevin. Carver stated in an interview that that was mature on Sam's part.
    Sam has rarely had to pay for his actions, whether it is through shifting the blame onto external forces or onto his brother, he manages to skate. Having his irresponsibility deemed "mature" by the showrunner puts a tacit stamp of approval Sam and Dean's pathology.
    Dean doesn't get off scot free in this, either. He should never have violated his brother's choice and needs to make amends for it, but that doesn't excuse Sam's brutality at the end of the episode. Tearing people down to build them up only serves to devastate people.

    ReplyDelete
  45. I watched the show and my heart just sank - I waited until Sunday morning to watch it as I feared the worst. I ignored every review/comment about it until I could finally face it. And what a waste of time it was. An empty filler of a show that forgot everything we'd been told was important [if I'd not known Sam and Dean weren't bruvvers anymore - I'd never have known].

    The whole speech thing at the end had me totally lost - not so much about the lack of coherence with old season plots/emotions - but with what happened say in the last few weeks - or even as far back in series archaeology as S8...

    I really thought S9 had finally turned the corner after some highly disappointing tripe = and we get this disched up instead. Again. When a fan who got up at 3am to watch the latest show across the Atlantic deliberately waits 5 DAYS to see something she could've seen live - that tells me that the writers have lost the plot down the sofa cushions.

    Re good things - I'd the chubby female cop - she was totally wasted and downgraded to pointless donut eater. Err - I can't think of anything else positive to add from the episode. Everything else was padding. Oh, and the make-up staff need to give Sam and Dean a good wash - they look grubby, ill and smelly. I wouldn't want to be kissed by either of them.

    ReplyDelete
  46. I know those were all from the earlier seasons and Sam could have changed his attitude in the interim. But there’s the episode Trial and Error, as recent as last season, in which Sam, after being chosen to perform the trials (a task which Dean insisted on taking) says, “I see light at the end of this tunnel. And I'm sorry you don't -- I am. But it's there. And if you come with me, I can take you to it.” Meaning Sam wants to save Dean not only from the trials but from his own darkness.

    ReplyDelete
  47. No matter how screwed-up their relationship is, they're still human. It's not like b/c we are seeing supernatural creatures or unhealthy codependency, it means we can't expect rational explainable mindset or action. Emotions are parts of human being, like instincts, you don't need to define happiness or sadness, your body unconsciously answers them by laughing or crying, it's the same for love, heck even animals and plants recognize the kindness.


    Obviously Sam is not an angry unreasonable teenager, so he must be some wacko job to think like that, unless it's not the case and actually, in TPTB's eyes, it's called being matured, like how one can easily write off his only family as being dead b/c he vanishes (just imagine it happens to your sibling, could you be this accepting w/o any proof?!)


    We are talking about a TV show, of course it's full of fictional accidents or dramatic lines and actions, but it's still a TV show about supposedly sane humans, it's obvious we expect mature and reasonable mindsets according to our own beliefs and definition of sane human beings.

    Forget about the Winchester, I'm afraid they're trying to crush OUR concept of love and family and then rewriting it as they please.

    ReplyDelete
  48. ,blockquote>There's a difference between Sam looking for Dean who is apparently in danger and if push came to shove allowing him to die, instead making some deal that would have horrible consequences.


    I keep hearing this theory that it's all about deal or no deal, but that was not specifically said in the episode, so it's just a theory.


    And after Dean went to Purgatory it wasn't as if Sam tried everything until he reached a point that he had to make a deal with terrible consequences. Sam did nothing. He let Dean rot in that place. So I think it's fair to say even if Sam's words could be interpreted as something else, his actions point at what the review says, that he wouldn't lift a finger if Dean were the one close to death.

    ReplyDelete
  49. friggin' Death was waiting for him. If you could think of a better sign that you were gonna die, Id like to hear it.

    That was his imagination. He dreamed up that Death was there, just like he dreamed up Dean and Bobby.

    Consciously he wanted to live, subconsciously he was ready to die. But in the end he did chose to live



    So you're saying it was his choice after all. If that is true (and since it's choice it is of course done consciously,) then Dean is innocent. You can't expect him to read Sam's subconscious mind. As far as he, and we, are concerned Sam chose to live.

    ReplyDelete
  50. I'm not talking about the case part, just the arguments. Of course on the hunt they care about each other and other people. That's the inconsistency Gripe #1 talks about.

    ReplyDelete
  51. That was actually Death, not some manifestation of his mind.He was ready to die, in that moment he accepted that nothing could be done to save, then Dean/Gadreel shows up and tells him he way to save him, all he has to do is say "yes," so he does without knowing what.

    No matter how much someone accepts that their death is imminent, there's always that kernel of survival instinct left.

    Dean's not innocent at all. I doubt in a million years Sam could have guessed what Dean's method to save him involved, had Dean been upfront about it, Sam just as well would have said no to an angel possessing him.

    Dean's choice to save Sam, lead to the gates of Hell not being shut, Crowley being kidnapped leaving a void in Hell for Abaddon to exploit, and of course Kevin's death by Sam's hand.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Sam said similar circumstances. He may not have specifically said the deal, but he was saying there were times he would save Dean.

    ReplyDelete
  53. That's true, but I'm not really sure where that statement invalidates or is invalidated by what he said in The Purge. He has never said in the last two episodes that he doesn't care about helping Dean.

    ReplyDelete
  54. I don't think it's just being written as Sam being mature. We've seen far more focus on how this affects Dean and how this hurts Dean than we've seen on Sam. We've also seen that Sam is still suicidal. Only two episodes ago he was pushing for death, and Cas refused to go along.

    If my sibling was repeatedly taken from me and I'd never been able to get him back (other than once) and I'd lost everyone around me and felt like I'd always been a failure, which was Sam's situation at the time, then I'm not sure what my reaction would have been. The main problem I had with that story was, as always, poor POV for Sam.

    I don't think Sam is a "whack job" to feel the way he did. I think he's struggling with a lot of things and trying to process. He and Dean are both very damaged. I try not to put too much focus on their words, because if I did, then I would have stopped watching after Dean said he was going to kill Sam and then commit suicide.

    ReplyDelete
  55. I will never deny that Sam is right, but to say he wouldn't fight to save Dean is so close to what he did last year, is also right. No matter the reasons behind why they fight to save each other. Sam has done his share of that, This is just not like Sam at all. Not the Sam we all know and love.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Sam has every right to demand that Dean not bulldoze his wishes again, but I do believe he was purposely cruel. He did not state those words in an uncontrolled rage but with stone cold precision.
    Sam's weaknesses have to be written sympathetically for fans to care about him. Not everyone can feel generous toward a spoiled child throwing temper tantrums. We are reaching the point where Sam can't have any realistic character development in the time left to the series. They have destroyed this character for the sake of ratings.

    ReplyDelete
  57. I think Sam was trying to say what he could do convince Dean, and was also trying not to say certain things. I do wish it had been better written dialogue.

    I feel like we're at the point where no amount of writing will help Sam, because of the damage done to him for 5 or 6 seasons now. I feel like he's become a writer mouthpiece to try to address some of the codependency issues once and for all. Not so much for ratings, because I don't think they believe this conflict helps ratings, but because they wanted to start something last season and are now trying to finish it. I just wish they knew how to write any POV or characterization for Sam, or have him save Dean (without violating his consent). Of course now people would say they just did that because of backlash and it's not valid, but I still wish they'd try. I feel like they have gotten Dean's part of the story very much right, but not Sam's.

    ReplyDelete
  58. I will agree with you on some of these points.
    The dialogue should have been written better. There always seems to be something vague in these talks for fandom to bicker about.
    Sam meant this.
    No, he meant that.
    It happened in Sacrifice and it is happening again.
    I also agree that no amount of writing will help Sam. As of season 8, this character has gone past redemption for me. There is nothing they can do to fix what they have broken, but I would still like to see them try.
    All we need is for Sam to act like a normal guy. When they get along, I don't see fans complaining about it. That should be a clue right there.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Talk about blown out of proportion. Sam makes the one mistake of leaving the live behind that killed his entire family to be with Amelia, and suddenly some believe that Sam wouldn't even care if his brother was in danger- even though it's obvious in that very same episode.
    I can hardly believe that daring to have a life with a woman can be compared to gaslighting your own brother. And Sam was most definitely taken to task about that decision, much more harshly than was necessary.

    This is not about "blame" on the "selfless" one, as Dean is more martyr than selfless anyway- it's about getting Dean to finally recognize the very toxic and damaging ways he deals with people, and correcting some of his "I know better than anyone because I sacrifice more" attitude. Dean does this to more than just Sam, but most egregiously with Sam, because he thinks of Sam more like a possession than a brother.

    What if it had been a demon that came to the hospital? Dean has no problem removing Sam's tattoo. Would it be okay if Dean lied for months about a demon in Sam, having conversations with this demon and asking him for help without Sam's knowledge, all because Dean is so "selfless"?

    Everyone is so impatient for Sam to forgive his brother, and he's NOT EVEN SORRY. He says to Sams' FACE that he would do it AGAIN. Seriously, with that attitude, how is Sam supposed to trust Dean ever again? I think it was a mistake on Sam's part to let Dean know that he doesn't know what roofies look like. ;

    Frankly, this is more than one mistake on Dean's part anyway. It was a pattern of lying and intentional memory wiping that went on for some time. It can be understood why Dean did what he did in the hospital, as I'm sure Sam would have understood as well, if at any time Dean had decided to explain to him. The fact is, if Gadreel hadn't killed Kevin, it would still be going on, and Dean would still believe he's done nothing wrong. Not that Dean thinks he's done anything wrong anyway, even after Sam has told him how much this has hurt him.


    And I don't just mean the pattern of this incident either, it's a pattern of Dean deciding that what he wants is more important than the thoughts and feelings of the people he "cares" about. Did Dean give up his childhood and Cheerios to Lisa, Benny, Castiel, or Kevin? Is that why it's okay for him to erase *her* memories, or treat Benny like a dirty secret who then had to be sacrificed, or throw Cas out of the bunker without a dime to fend for himself, or treat Kevin like a spell producing mule?



    The fact is- Dean thinks that making these Big Decisions, usually against the express wishes of the people he's "doing it for" makes him a Big Damn Hero, because he considers the best part of himself to be his martyrdom. Unfortunately a large part of the fandom romanticized this about him, even more than he does himself. Dean needs to change, not just for Sam's sake and mental health and need to be able to trust his brother again, but for Dean's own sake.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Here's a question. What is it that Dean loves about Sam, that he is SO desperate to have Sam in his life?

    And I'm sorry, but "because he's his brother" is not an answer. Okay, it's an answer, but it's the selfish answer- as in "he's MINE, so I can do what I want."

    A selfless answer would be some quality in Sam that Dean thinks the world would be worse off without.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Dean didn't learn from that conversation because he refuses to, not because there was nothing to learn

    ReplyDelete
  62. Unfortunately the "Mark of Cain" just illustrates a repetition of Dean's toxic behavior. Cain kills his brother because he "loves him too much," without Cain ever asking Abel about what he was doing or why he was doing it. Maybe Abel knew what Lucifer was doing? Maybe Abel had a plan? We'll never know because big brother Cain decided he knew better, thus turning into a Knight of Hell, creating other Knights, and untold death and destruction. Because of his selfless "love."

    ReplyDelete
  63. Dean making amends to Sam- that's rich. Why would he?

    ReplyDelete
  64. If that was not Death then why was Dean so worried ? a image conjured in Sam's mind would not be a threat.

    ReplyDelete
  65. He said In the same circumstances Tessa and why do you think that would be then ? why do you think Sam would not allow a angel with no proper consent to possess his brother ? because he just as to keep Dean alive for his own selfish reasons .

    View Sam however you like but do not make out Dean to be a victim in any of this ,

    ReplyDelete
  66. Because what he did was wrong, in my opinion. He should have respected Sam's wishes and he didn't. Instead of apologizing, he said he would do it again.
    Granted, what he has done is a drop in the bucket compared to Sam, but that doesn't make it any more right. Because of Sam's history, my "sympathy" for him is purely academic, but that doesn't keep me from viewing their actions objectively.
    To clarify, Dean's guilt begins and ends with the angel possession. He has somewhat rectified it by having Sam dispossessed. He further intends to kill Gadreel. The final step involves acknowledging what he did was wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  67. evidently I didn't use my sarcasm font. I meant, Why would Dean make amends to Sam, if he doesn't think he's done anything wrong? What you list as the final step should actually be the First step. Instead it will probably never happen.
    And NO, this isn't a drop in the bucket compared to Sam. It's inconceivable to me that Sam, or anyone, who truly loves someone would do what Dean did. And then Dean joked about it, with his disgusting "teen mom" rape-y joke.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Exactly. That ep was all kinds of wrong

    ReplyDelete
  69. I agree, I think it was a personification or manifestation of Sam's mind when Death visited him. He finally understood he was dying and it would be his choice and it would mean no one else died for him to live.


    I would think if it was actually Death himself he would have appeared outside of the mind and talked to Sam's ghost form?



    But I think Dean was actually in Sam's head... didn't "Zeke" at the time touch both Dean's and Sam's foreheads to transport themselves into Sam's mind? I could be wrong. I thought it was actually Dean convincing Sam to choose life/Dean and "Zeke" hiding behind him (for lack of a better hiding place lol) and then as soon as Sam said yes the connection was broken? Though to be honest I have only watched the premiere once and can't remember anymore.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Selflessness is a great way to endear a character to the audience. When characters fight, the smart strategy is to make it about them caring about each other instead of caring about themselves. It lessens the nastiness and keeps the viewers sympathetic to both sides.

    Wow. Quite a viewpoint you have there. The person who was hurt should only care how it affects the one who was doing the hurting or otherwise that person is not selfless enough and not sympathetic. I hope you felt this way when it came to Dean in season 5.

    Sam is mad at Dean because Dean hurt him. Even if he has a right to it it’s a storyline the writers chose to give him. They could have made their fight about something else.

    So because Sam was hurt by his brother he has a right to be mad at Dean but he really shouldn't be because "it doesn't keep us firmly invested in both characters". Instead Sam should have concentrated on how "Dean once again put his own wellbeing on the line to save him, or that Dean was somehow in danger and acting reckless". Saint Dean syndrome projected onto Sam.

    ReplyDelete
  71. You're confusing who and what I'm criticizing here. It's my fault for not explaining it better.


    I'm not saying Sam isn't entitled to be hurt or that a person being hurt should care about the person who hurt him more. I'm saying this storyline in general isn't fun, and I wished they had given us something else instead. Something like season 3 when Dean let himself get hurt to save Sam and Sam was mad at him for it yet at the same time going out of his way to save him. I'm saying it's a lot more heartwarming when a character gets outraged and fights with the other because he cares about him, instead of when the fight is about them being hurt and punishing the other person for it. There are a million stories that could be told about these two. Why choose one that focuses on personal hurt instead of one that highlights how much they love each other?


    I know this may sound like my personal preference but the amount of problems the writers are running into in telling this story (mentioned in some of my gripes) and the number of fans who are unhappy with it proves otherwise. One reason Sam's dialogue recently has been so cryptic could be because the writers themselves are aware of how problematic their story is and are trying to avoid direct proclamations and character stands to skirt the responsibility. They let fans make speculations about what Sam is really saying so that no one can accuse them of the clusterf*ck and the issues I described in that section.

    ReplyDelete
  72. I'm saying this storyline in general isn't fun, and I wished they had given us something else instead. Something like season 3 when Dean let himself get hurt to save Sam and Sam was mad at him for it yet at the same time going out of his way to save him. I'm saying it's a lot more heartwarming when a character gets outraged and fights with the other because he cares about him, instead of when the fight is about them being hurt and punishing the other person for it.

    I hear ya but it's not that realistic for this possession storyline because ultimately it was Sam who got hurt. The season 3 comparison is more in line with the mark of Cain so when Sam finds out that the mark came originally from Lucifer, he'll be mad but it'll come from a place of concern. I agree with you that when they will be fighting, hopefully it'll be more about fighting for the other one because they believe that person deserves better.

    ReplyDelete
  73. I'm not sure about the Death thing, but I'm guessing Dean was just worried b/c Sam was giving up.

    ReplyDelete
  74. And what kind of message do you think the fandom is sending out by villianizing the victim because they did not like what he said or have choosen not to understand. IMO there is no excuse we may not get Sam's pov to the degree of Dean's but this fandom has not be living under a rock , it has seen what Sam has been put through it doesnt need a explanation. Sam was violated in a horrible way , his body used to kill Kevin , lied to and then ended up with screws sticking out of his head and two entity's in his body at the same time. What in words could those images not of told this fandom .

    If the fandom chooses not to sympathize with Sam that is up to them but in this single instance I think it is the wrong thing to do.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Well, I felt the same way when Dean gave his SC speech and his list of "sins" for Dean to confess last year, so I'm not just picking on one brother.
    My problem is w/Carver and this entire story. I find it forced and a fake conflict for the sake of conflict.
    And the main problem w/much of what Sam says is it's never clear. How often do we see the fandom debating Dean's words for days on end? Hardly ever. Why? Because Dean is given clear dialogue that doesn't leave room for debate.
    Sam, on the other hand, is given crap (IMO) dialogue that barely touches on his perspective and leaves him looking like a jerk. I think Sam's words are open for interpretation b/c that's how the writers wrote it.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Again, all I can tell you is I found the dialogue to be bad and not conducive to anyone "learning" anything. We just interpreted the scene and dialogue differently.
    Because of Sam's broad generalizations and overall indictment of Dean as a person it seemed, his message (whatever it was) was lost. I think Sam's dialogue could have been written much better and in a way that did not lead to many bibro fans like myself not caring if the brothers reconcile.
    But if you see it differently, that's cool. We can ATD.

    ReplyDelete
  77. In addition to being his brother, I'm sure Dean loves many aspects about Sam.
    I think we just fundamentally disagree on some things re: Dean. For instance, I don't believe he feels "ownership" over Sam. I see Sam as a man who can make his own decisions, and he has chosen to stay w/Dean over the years. Dean is not forcing him to stay.
    Honestly, your statement bugs me just as much as Dean fans who claim Sam is horrible for leaving when Dean upsets him b/c he knows Dean has abadonment issues. Uh . . . Sam has every right to leave if he doesn't want to hang around Dean, and if that's upsetting to Dean, then he needs to get over. Similarly, I would argue that if Sam is so put out by Dean and finds him so suffocating, then he should leave and stay gone.
    These are two grown men in their 30s. They have control over their own lives, and yes, I know Dean allowed an angel to possess Sam, and I am NOT saying that was right.
    But this idea that Dean feels like he owns Sam is just bizarre to me. I don't see it. I guess you do, but I do not. I don't think Dean's decision in 9x01 had anything to do w/a need to possess Sam, but that's my opinion. YMMV.

    ReplyDelete
  78. I almost missed your review. Is there a way to get a notification when you post a new one?
    I haven't read the comments yet, so hope I am not just repeating things already stated. My biggest problem with this season is that I don't think the writers can walk their way back from this one. I never saw the brothers' relationship as needing fixed. Sure, the bickering and their differences in character has always been there, but it ran in the background -- it wasn't the story. At this point, I want them permanently broke up. There is nothing that Sam can do between now and the end of the season that will make me like him, or trust him, as a character again. He was not honest, but more importantly, he was deliberately cruel and meant to be. Dean needs to get away from him as quickly as possible, and he needs to stay away.
    The problem I think the writers have established is that Sam wants to be removed from the story. He is willing to die (how he got there, I don't know), he doesn't want to be brothers, and family is the root of all evil. Go for it, Sam. Nobody is stopping you.
    Dean, apparently, in now defined as a character with one characteristic -- he is needy -- yet he is still being shown as being able to make connections with other people. He needs to say goodbye, and quickly, to Sam and go find people who will value him as a person.
    The logical progression of the show should have been that Dean increasingly becomes isolated from friends and family because of the Mark of Cain, but the Mark is barely being mentioned and seems to be having no affect on him at all.
    Honestly, I don't know what the show is doing, except that Carver seems to have a vision of the show and the characters that I do not share. I am one character away from quitting the show, and that will be based on what Carver's idea of the mature Dean is.

    ReplyDelete
  79. ...Maybe Abel had a plan? We'll never know...

    Exactly, we don't know what happened back then, whether Cain tried to reason w/ his brother (which I guess he did, it's just rational) or not, so how are you this sure he didn't?!
    The big brother bashing seems to be at full power here!

    This Cain story is out of topic here, but the first thing came to my mind about this parallel was the end of S4, when Dean tried everything he got and in the end he said he'd rather kill his brother than let him live as a monster, but well in the end the brothers had Bobby, Cas and even God to help them out.

    ReplyDelete
  80. I hear ya but it's not that realistic for this possession storyline


    Then why even go with a possession storyline? It's not terribly original, it hurt one of the brothers for no reason and no mistake of his own, it turned Dean's love to protect him into something ugly, and it had no benefit to the overall story other than to draw a rift between the two of them.


    That's what I meant when I said they could have chosen a million other storylines that could have made the show much better. Here's an example: how about getting Dean into trouble and this time letting Sam save him. I've been waiting for that one since season 3.

    ReplyDelete
  81. If Dean would not have allowed the possession, Sam would be in Heaven in Metatron's hand to use as he wished or he would be in Abaddon's hands to use as she pleased. That is the other side of the "Dean is so needy, he took away all of Sam's agency."

    ReplyDelete
  82. What happened to Sam is not a solitary event but one of a sequence of events over nine years. I passively judge what happened to him because my sympathy was lost long before the possession as a direct result of his actions. Had the show and Sam himself held him accountable for his behavior, I wouldn't feel outraged by the injustice of what he has gotten by with.
    I have held Dean accountable for his part. I can't be forced to feel sorry for Sam when he has caused so much misery of his own.

    ReplyDelete
  83. I don't even understand how Sam got from wanting to live and fighting the good fight to now wishing that he would die rather than having anyone else get hurt because of the Winchesters' actions. When did he lose the hope that Dean offered him in 8.23 and only to choose death in 9.01?
    It is hard for me to root for a hero who wants to retire his hunter hero role, and that is what accepting death over fighting the good fight is.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Dean loves the idea of family. The show's premise is always that the love of family is what allows people to overcome all the chaos and hurt that life offers, and Dean's character was the audiences' window into that premise. Dean has spent his whole life seeking love and acceptance for himself as a person equivalent to the love he holds dear for family YED's 'they don't need you as much as you need them'). Sam, as Dean's only living family member, the person he has protected and nurtured his whole life, has just gutted any idea of that ever happening.

    ReplyDelete
  85. I almost missed your review. Is there a way to get a notification when you post a new one?

    If you follow me or SpoilerTV on either Twitter or Tumblr we make a post as soon as a review appears. I usually post the reviews on the Saturday (or Sunday, depending on how busy my schedule that week is) so if you check back either of those days chances are it's there.

    I never saw the brothers' relationship as needing fixed.

    I was unhappy with it after what happened in Purgatory and with Benny. I had tons of problems with Sam not looking for Dean (if it's a relationship, it should go both ways,) Sam and Dean arguing over Benny, Dean killing Benny to save Sam (again) and showing very little remorse, then using it as evidence to prove how much he cared for Sam, as if it wasn't obvious already. By then I wanted there to be a change because I didn't enjoy the way the brotherly bond seemed to be only about Dean orbiting around Sam.

    But I didn't want them to do it this way. As you say this fight it just cruel and leaves a bad impression on both of them. It makes Sam look like a mean husband who is uncaring about his wife's feelings and says whatever comes to his mind no matter how much it hurts the other person. And it makes Dean look like a needy, obsessed wife who is refusing to accept that the marriage is over and the more the husband pushes her away the more she clings to him. I'm close to wishing he'd leave too, just to stop this and save us from having to watch it.

    The problem I think the writers have established is that Sam wants to be removed from the story.

    Thank you. Yes, that is a big problem. It's not that I'm not giving Sam the right to choose for himself. It's that all of his choices (living with Amelia, dying for or after the trials, not being brothers with Dean anymore) are aimed at remove him from the story.

    Carver seems to have a vision of the show and the characters that I do not share.



    Sadly I don't think he even has a solid vision. He seems to be throwing ideas at the show (Sam's possession, Heaven's battle, Hell's battle, human Castiel, reformed Crowley) and seeing what sticks. That's why I'm not as hopeful about the whole Mark of Cain thing as some other fans are. For all we know it may be dropped before the end of the season because Carver finds another shiny idea he would want to try out.

    ReplyDelete
  86. No, it wasn't Dean, Jensen said it was the angel that said 'there ain't no me... '. The idea was Dean didn't know how Sam was doing so Gadreel showed him his inner talk, and in return Gadreel told Dean's thoughts when he was convincing Sam to say yes.

    I agree about Death, still I think his highness would never bother himself to do a reaper job. lol

    ReplyDelete
  87. Sam chose to leave Amelia on his own, and he chose to keep hunting with Dean all on his own. What he did with Amelia was pick a Dean replacement, and dumped Dean, Kevin and Meg in the process.

    Sam's talk had nothing to do with anger. During the last little speech, Sam was calm, cold, and meaning to be hurtful.

    You can't say Dean is a martyr more than not and then claim that he knows he is better than everyone because he sacrifices more. I don't see how it can be viewed that Dean treats Sam as a possession when it has repeatedly been shown that Dean lets Sam make his own decisions (Swan Song and Amelia being two of those things -- and quitting the trials was all in Sam's hands and many times walking away, and always it was Sam's choice to return). If anything, everything in this series has shown Dean to be the most selfless person on the show.

    ReplyDelete
  88. ahh ok thanks, that makes sense too :)

    ReplyDelete
  89. I think the problem is that sometimes this nurturing crosses a line. Sam easily could have been a prisoner in his own body for many lifetimes thanks to what Dean did to keep him around. This is on top of other things that Sam had no power over and which in the long run damaged him psychologically, like the deal Dean made to go to Hell.


    At some point Dean's need to define himself by Sam's love began to eat him alive.

    ReplyDelete
  90. He only barely chose to survive at the end of 8.23. He was on his deathbed throughout 9.01. I think he likely just did not want to fight the inevitable.

    ReplyDelete
  91. I don't think he meant to hurt Dean. I think he was trying to protect himself.

    ReplyDelete
  92. They dropped him to recurring soon after season 6 finished airing. They had Cas doing things like torturing innocents (or presented as an innocent, anyway - Ellie Vysak) and had a big finale where Dean's best efforts couldn't save or stop Cas.


    I like your interpretation but I don't think it was ever their plan.

    ReplyDelete
  93. I'd say it's because they wanted to draw a line under just how damaged Dean is and how he needs to change. The show has claimed for many years that Dean's love for Sam is toxic and excessive, but then they always dance around it and fetishize it. This season they finally stopped.


    I would like to see Sam save Dean too, but not because he has to prove himself, as the writing has said in the past. I want him to save Dean just because he loves his brother. I hope they will do this eventually.

    ReplyDelete
  94. I want him to save Dean just because he loves his brother. I hope they will do this eventually.


    Same here. I want a return to the brothers loving each other normally without one of them being crazy obsessed with the other and the other pushing him away.

    ReplyDelete
  95. "I'm sure Dean loves many aspects about Sam. "
    For instance?

    ReplyDelete
  96. The Father of Murder is rational? Why, because of his parallels with Dean?

    I'm not the one drawing parallels of Dean and the Father of Murder, someone that even gave Crowley chills. The narrative is doing that, and I'm sure it's for a reason.

    Cain isn't the only parallel either- There were several distinct parallels with the werewolf stepmom- the one who fell back on "Father's old teachings" because of "revenge." This is all about a pattern of Dean's behavior- I'm just pointing it out.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Amen Peter. Especially since, when it comes to proving himself, what Sam does is never enough for fandom

    ReplyDelete
  98. sigh.. He wasn't born as father of murder, it was AFTER he killed Abel, he was a normal human and no human would want to condemn his own soul to hell, of course he'd try every other way to avoid it and killing his own brother, whom apparently he liked greatly. It's clearly obvious. It's a rational speculation.
    On the other hand I'm lost at how some people are this adamant sure Cain just straight went to kill w/o trying any other way! Why, because of his parallels with Dean?

    We all know there was a reason they altered Cain/Abel story, to draw parallel w/ the Winchester. That werewolf stepmom?!!! It was never meant to reflect Dean's actions, it's just your interpretation. It was the good Father who by not going after revenge did sth the human John Winchester couldn't.

    ReplyDelete
  99. I still don't understand how some are translating that into "wanting to die." Facing the inevitable and seeking out death are two different things in my mind. I guess what I'm saying is Carver failed to show me a "suicidal" Sam in the premiere. I saw a Sam that realized his body was dying, and there wasn't much he could do about it.

    ReplyDelete
  100. His bitchface moments, his puppy dogs eyes, how he doesn't laugh at Dean's bad jokes, his kindness, his compassion for people, probably his ability to get drunk off one beer, etc.

    I guess you don't believe Dean loves Sam, which is fine. I disagree. I think both brothers love each other. I always have. We've seen the moments where Dean misses Sam, and I think that feeling is genuine. He's not missing his "possession;" he's missing his brother.

    As I said, I love both brothers. They both make mistakes. They are both human. I am not a fan of just one brother, so I do not view the show w/that lens.

    ReplyDelete
  101. I am sorry, Peter J4, I don't understand what you are saying here.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Finally, the voice of sanity!
    As for your last paragraph, I sure hope we get option 1

    ReplyDelete
  103. How so? By end of season 8, beginning of 9, Sam has no use to either heaven or hell. Also, Death kind of guaranteed him in S09's pilot that if he dies this time, it's final, no can bring him back and no one gets hurt.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Well done. There are still some unexplained things like Sam's sore attitude and his insistence on returning to normal life after Dean came back, but that's the best explanation that could be presented if we think it was not some screw up OOC, and TPTB had actually though about what they were doing. (Though I still think they'd elaborate if they know what was going on, you give them too much credit. lol)

    ReplyDelete
  105. Thanks :-)

    I think Dean's attitude put him in a defensive position. Put in mind that Sam is very stubborn as well.

    I also didn't expect him to spring back into action the point Dean resurfaced. Sam was essentially depressed and spent. Knowing depression, I'd say it takes times --even when things get slightly better-- to respond or make a move.

    His life was empty, he thought he left it all behind, he was stuggling to recreate a meaning for his life, he was exhausted, then suddenly, Dean is back with a bang, a million questions, some accusations too, trying to shake him off his depression-induced apathy and pull him back into the quest again. It can be overwhelming, and disorienting. He needed a moment.

    And when push shoved, he chose Dean (again), and he even started seeing it from his brother's perspective (or at least appreciated how his decision during that year has affected his brother), and started harboring guilt for letting his brother down. Which we saw manifest in that church exchange end of season 8.

    ReplyDelete
  106. If you're interested, I also put together some musings and analysis re the Purge 9x13 here: http://storify.com/pakinamamer/my-thoughts-on-sam-dean-9-13-bro-conversation ... specifically regarding that heartbreaking conversation between the boys in the end. I'm a Dean-girl (religiously so), but in a first I feel that I know where Sam is coming from, and I understand the depth of his hurt.

    If you do read that, let me know what you think!

    ReplyDelete
  107. Ok, so was Sam harsh and scalding, perhaps even a little bitter? Sure.
    And it makes sense, because he's hurting. I'm not saying he doesn't mean
    what he said. I believe he means every single word, 100%.

    But
    he's a little reckless with his words, choosing to ignore the
    destructive effect they may have on his brother, and that's definitely a
    little vindictive and angry. And it comes from a dark place, where Sam
    himself seems to be currently stranded.

    In an interview quoted in E! Jared Padalecki explains it elaborately: "One of the things that I don't like in TV or movies is when someone is
    hurt and it's like, Oh, no that's okay, let's carry on ... I like to see, as in reality, people working through things. Like you
    know what, that messed me up so I'm going to hurt you back and then they
    kind of figure out what's what. Like you are with your family, your
    friends, your bosses, people you work with. You know, it's difficult to
    just have someone just go, ‘Okay, give me a hug.'" So I like that the
    writers are having a chance to really delve into the disagreements Sam
    and Dean have."

    A reviewer for SPN Monster also says it well, 'As Sam has pointed out, he’s been following Dean around since he was
    four trying to be just like his big brother and he knows Dean better
    than anyone
    – maybe even Dean. Sam wasn’t actually asking Dean if he was okay. He
    knows damned well that Dean isn’t okay. He knows that what he told Dean
    about not being brothers is eating away at him. It’s a knife in Dean’s
    heart just as it was in his when Dean said that Benny was a better
    brother than Sam had ever been. Bringing the issue up, isn’t about Sam
    reiterating that he’s “just being honest.” It was a twist of the knife.'

    But I also think that what Sam was doing there was hosting an intervention, or attempting to (maybe the attempt was clumsy and clouded by anger, but it was also essential and honest albeit harshly).

    And really, Sam didn't tell Dean he'd be let him die period. He said, "same
    circumstances," he'd let him die INSTEAD of being possessed by a shady
    angel. Essentially, he'd respect Dean's wishes, and treat him like the capable adult that he is, even if it meant hurting Sam (because Dean's death would definitely hurt Sam, would leave him miserable). He might not like his brother's decisions or wishes, but he'd respect them, and that's a big sacrifice from the side of Sam.

    Sam has the wisdom to understand that there are some things worse than death: harming his brother, risking his own brother's (and possibly others') wellbeing, and risking creating
    a deep rift between him and Dean, and messing up (again!). So he's essentially telling his brother that he's stand up & face
    the possibility of losing him to death (& hurting deeply as a
    result) than harm Dean or force him into a situation he might detest him for it later.

    It might not seem like it now, because of all the anger and bitterness, but it's a decision of love.

    Maybe Sam was also trying to tell Dean that Dean's life has no less worth than
    his own, and he should stop trying to throw it away in desperate
    attempts to protect Sam. As well, their lives are not more worthy than
    Kevin's or Castiel's or anyone else's (at least from Sam's perspective)
    so why should they be spared? 'What makes them special?,' he wonders. And considering Kevin's death and the revelation about Gadreel is still close, he's definitely still constricted with anger and a sense of betrayal.

    I'm usually on Dean's side, and I still am, but I see what Sam is trying to say here (perhaps in a first).

    ReplyDelete
  108. I agree with your interpretation here, though I was never mad at Sam for not looking for Dean in S8. I did not think it out as thoroughly as you, instead just chocking it up to throughout the entire series, Sam has always completely feel apart when Dean is not in his life. I will say, though, that it is a complete failure in storytelling when so many fans either don't understand why Sam did not look for Dean or, like you, take a year to try to figure it out.
    Which brings up a point about this season and this episode. I have thought for some time that the story is not that Dean made a 'bad decision,' (because I think that he made the best decision from two bad options available to him), but that it is Sam who has to learn that he needs to give up his dependence on Dean. I know the writers keep saying it is "co-dependency," and somehow they probably will get around to what lesson Dean needs to learn. I hope that is self-worth and not that he can't live without Sam. I think the show has historically shown that Dean CAN live without Sam; he just prefers that Sam be with him.
    But the point also remains that the writers are walking a very tight line in messing with the idea that family can get one through all of life's arrows and chaos by playing it the way they are playing it. What has happened is that the fans have entrenched themselves on one side or the other, and I don't know if the writers can pull whatever they are doing together so that both sides will feel okay with it. Myself, I think the writers have taken Sam way too far in that they have had Sam attack Dean personally, on the deepest level of his personality and characterization. Never before, when the brothers have been at odds (because they are two, distinctive individuals), has it been taken it to a level of a personal attack...not to mention that it was an untruthful personal attack.
    The other point is that this season, the story IS the brothers with something supernatural, and pretty much ignored to this point, playing in the background. I have always been okay with the brother spats -- actually liked them -- but I am not okay with a season of emoting brothers and nothing much more after the hoopla about angel and demon wars. That is simply too nighttime soap for me, and certainly not what I watch the show for. At this point, I understand that Crowley and Abaddon are in a power play, but the show has still not stated what the fallen angels hope to accomplish. The Gates to Heaven are closed, so there is no attacking those walls and a siege is not an option. So what do they hope to accomplish?

    ReplyDelete
  109. Sam could be used as a tool against Dean by either party (and wouldn't Abaddon have fun with that), or he could just be held captive with no central role in the show.
    In 9.01 Death was in Sam's head. Sam was arguing with himself. Julian Richings confirmed that at one of the Con's, saying that is the way he played it. JA confirmed also that Gad/Zeke was using Dean's image when he talked Sam into the "yes" and, once he got it, he morphed back into his vessel's image.
    It could be fanwanked, I suppose, into saying that Death would not bring Sam back, but that still would leave him in the hands of Metatron or in the hands of Abaddon, unless he just hung around as a ghost and turned into a vengeful spirit.

    ReplyDelete
  110. Sam said in 9.01 that he couldn't take hurting any more people. I think that is where his suicidal thoughts most surface.

    ReplyDelete
  111. He wants to make it clear to Dean that if he is stabbed to death tomorrow, Dean can't make a deal with someone to possess him or bring him back.

    ReplyDelete
  112. By far it's the best psychological analysis I've seen about Sam, and it matches the crazy stuff we've seen so far, but it has two major flows, not that you were wrong, but as in accepting them in the show:

    1. If Sam is that hollow that anything negative Dean tells/does to him sends him spiraling down the despair doom, his positive remarks should do the opposite; We can't ignore all the praises, support and trust Dean sent to him, what about them? If his inferior complex is that sever he can't see anything positive, he's in dire need of immediate and intense treatment. If you offer your help he thinks he's incapable, if you save his life he thinks he's just a tool to fill the empty place, if you treat him like an equal and expect the same devotion from him he thinks he's being controlled... being w/ him is like walking on egg shell, someone who can't be accountable for his actions b/c he may break, like some mental invalid... Is that how we should consider him? I don't think so. (Though I admit from S8, it's suggested that Sam is really that sensitive, but they don't say what Dean is supposed to do w/ such an unstable case, and more terribly Carver said it was "maturity"!!!)

    2. "You hurt me so I hurt you"... well that explains the BS we heard in the last episodes, but honestly I can't understand this logic; They're brothers not sworn enemies. If a loved one hurts us we either accept their apology and forgive them or it's not forgivable and we erase them from our life, am I wrong? I for one would never allow myself to get that low by repeating others mistake for revenge. And that to a brother who has practically raised him, if you're mad be mad but you're not entitled to hurt him like this just for revenge, I'd never like such ungrateful and hateful brother. Besides it's not like Sam was flawless, he's done much more mistakes and hurt Dean so many times, but Dean never tried to retaliate, b/c they're brothers.

    All in all, I'm saying TPTB really screwed up, they ruined the characters, the relationship and the core of the show. I think they need two or ten psychological consultants to show them how humans feel, act and react in different situations.

    ReplyDelete
  113. I did read that, it was well thought, but I still think you give the writers too much credit, if they had thought about what they were doing for half the time you spent on it, we wouldn't face this much confusion.
    Sorry for your depression experience.

    ReplyDelete
  114. This review is nearly perfect. It covers a lot of the problems I've been having with this. I can't agree more. Sam becomes less and less the character I fell in love with, and more someone I can't at all empathize with. It'll be very hard for them to reconstruct the brother relationship now that they've been working so hard at thoroughly dismantling it. The one disagreement I have with the review is that it says everything seems to have been forgotten from the previous episode, at the beginning of this one. Sam may act casual about what he'd said to Dean, but Dean is very clearly affected. He's very somber and distant feeling, as though he's trying to build a wall up to protect himself. Sam's words have injured him. (All of this was in the bunker before the motw started, and Sam asks him what's wrong.)

    ReplyDelete
  115. Thank you :-)

    ReplyDelete
  116. All of this was in the bunker before the motw started, and Sam asks him what's wrong.


    Yes, what I meant was that everything seemed forgotten as soon as they started the case. They only showed the difference in their dynamics before and after the MotW.

    ReplyDelete
  117. It is just so sad that it has come to this. Am I now to watch S1 through S9 with the understanding that ultimately Dean is the selfish brother who hurts more than he saves? It is beyond my level of understanding when I see so many posters state that the speech of Sam's was honest and mature, because to me is was exactly the opposite.


    To the posters who say that Sam is not saying he won't 'save' his brother, but rather he won't save him against his will. I understand completely and get that Sam wouldn't save Dean because, to him, choice is more important, I don't like it because it isn't in keeping with the Sam I came to love and route for, but I can accept it because apparently this is maturity.


    But this is not what is happening here. What I struggle to understand is why is Show even talking about co-dependency issues and maturity with the brothers? Last time I looked, SPN was not a reality show exploring the many facets of psychology 101. It is a show about 2 brothers brought up in horrifying circumstances, a supernatural world whose family members were murdered one by one…. I am not invested in a balanced, honest, healthy brotherly relationship, it is laughable to even expect it. If they want to explore honesty and maturity, then lets crush the suspension of disbelief completely and see them as serial killers too, because, hey if you want to be honest and mature, that is what they are in the real world!


    But they are not faced with the everyday dissenting relationship choices that the lens of co-dependence are understood through. I feel robbed of stone number one and I feel now that, we as fans, have been tricked all along into believing that the unique unbreakable special bond is what saved the world. Sam would have us believe it was their professional working relationship.


    My issue is that Carver has fundamentally changed the premise of the show from 2 very dysfunctional blue-collar American cowboys saving ordinary everyday folk from monsters and evil. Since when was co-dependency ever part of the story. Dean was a smart-ass chancer with guilt issues, Sam was the little brother whose understanding and gentle treatment of people and especially Dean would repeatedly blow my mind and make me route for him every week. Two very different people showing us that love conquers all. Now that is why i watch a TV show, not to be shown what is wrong with love, but rather what is right with it.

    ReplyDelete
  118. You know I was just thinking, what if Sam is going to be faced with the exact opposite of Dean's choice. What if his 'choice' is to let Dean live as a monster or kill him to save him. Like the exact opposite of the Cain story. Hasn't Carver subvert the Cain story?

    ReplyDelete
  119. " I am not invested in a balanced, honest, healthy brotherly relationship..."

    And neither am I, and I don't find a whole season of slogging their way through their emotional heartaches to get there riveting entertainment. We all know they will kiss and make up at the end of the season. The brothers need to be permanently separated and the show needs to get back to the supernatural stories they introduced: Metatron and the angels. What is the goal of the angels? How about Crowley and Abaddon's chess game? That is interesting. Why even introduce something as interesting as the Mark of Cain that all fans seemed interested in and ignore it completely (even though I suspect that one will go as far as the Purgatory story did -- nowhere).

    ReplyDelete
  120. Martin, I really enjoyed reading your very balanced and well thought out response, and it is a welcome relief I must admit, but... (you knew this was coming :) ) the thing is when I read about Carver wanting maturity for the brothers and this epiphany of Sam's that the, largely Dean's, view of family and the brother bond has been the cause of all the suffering and that the relationship is broken, then I am just left scratching my head. To me the only time it has been 'broken' is this and last season because it has been set up to be so. They have always been at odds in almost everything, personality, attitude, beliefs, friendships, temper, yet their fights, bickering wrongdoings have never been the story in of itself until now. The whole premise and the reason why I watch this show is because even though they are so at odds, their constant love and care of each other is what ultimately saves the world and keeps them from sinking into the black abyss. That is the investment for me.


    Carver has now made codependence a bad thing, where Sam's love for Dean isn't enough, he would rather die (in my book that's selfish too) than have to face disappointing his brother, or maybe it's that he would rather die saving the world in true heroic fashion (the ultimate narcissist apparently (yes I have also read that)); and desperate needy Dean would rather have Sam at his side at any cost no matter how this damages Sam or the world (yes horribly selfish). Sorry but in my view the story about the heart wrenchingly beautiful brotherhood up till S8 had been about selflessness and service to each other and the world. It was done out of love and concern for the other, not out of jealousy and neediness, this was Carver's invention when he decided the brothers needed maturing. And that is what I have issues with. He has 'let sunlight in on magic' as someone once said. He has dissected the relationship down to the raw nerve, just to show us all the ugliness and how wrong it has been all along. Now Carver gets to rebuild it and show us his view of how 30 year old men should all have brother relationships, oh and just by the by lets slay a few monsters, demons and save the world on the side.


    The story was beautiful because we understood their bond through their actions in saving the world and each other. Their talks on the Impala was wonderful and something to be looked forward to because we got some insight into their 'feelings'. I don't feel that anymore, I really don't understand why they are together anymore, perhaps they have pervasive personality disorders as well besides co-dependency, maybe they are narcissists, sadists and masochists because that is the only way to explain their being together. If I never hear them having a heart to heart again, it will not bother me one bit.

    ReplyDelete
  121. "Why even introduce something as interesting as the Mark of Cain that all fans seemed interested in and ignore it completely (even though I suspect that one will go as far as the Purgatory story did -- nowhere)."



    Goodness Ginger I hope not. I think Carver would be either very stupid/and or very brave to drop the Mark of Cain story at this point. From what I have read, this is the best storyline in years, it is the one constant thing I have seen said again on the boards and many pin their hopes on it. I honestly think if they dropped the MoC storyline this year like they did with Purgatory last year, it really would be the final straw, especially for the many Dean fans out there. Carver walks a very fine line this year.

    ReplyDelete
  122. I completely agree with this; especially never having a heart-to-heart again, but my problem with this tedious story is that I don't see a path out of it. Since they are still together, for no apparent reason, and since there is nothing off-kilter about the relational while they are hunting (only before and after the case), the only thing I see is the two of them ending up right where they have always been, perhaps with a characterization shift and role reversal at the end. We all know they are going to kiss and make up in the end.
    One thing I am having trouble with is rethinking the entire series with respect the Dean's characterization. I don't know now if I am supposed to believe that Dean is not a natural born hunter, just forced into the life and to get good at it so he could protect Sam. Has he always wished for a normal life and that is why he has willingly let Sam go many times and strived to reach some point Sam could have that? I go back to episodes like Skin, Shadow, and Scarecrow and now think, 'No, Dean was not a committed hunter. He was just trapped in the job' and now Carver is flipping the roles so that we see Dean as always having wanted normal and being the one who tries to get out of it.
    I don't like this Dean Carver has shown us. I liked when he took on the angels in 9.01, and I liked that he killed three demons in Road Trip, but I do not like that he is made to act like a fool during an interview, as if he has not been lying and bluffing his way through a lifetime of different roles.
    Sam, I can understand. He has always wanted to be something different than he was, but has now accepted that he is a hunter and always will be. And between the two characterizations, the only path I see if for Dean to end back at being Sam's manservant for the 9th year in a row.
    I also think Dean's story has ended and all that is left for the character is more angsting over Sam being mad at him. The Mark of Cain has had no affect on Dean whatsoever. He is not more lethal and he is not isolated. Cain was RETIRED, if you recall, and that is possibly the way Carver is taking Dean.
    I can't even get excited about a S10 renewal, because I know the writing, the stories, the structure, plotting and pacing issues will not won't improve, and now I fear that the only character I care about at this point -- Dean -- is being retrofitted into something I am not going to like.

    ReplyDelete
  123. "your statement bugs me just as much as Dean fans who claim Sam is horrible for leaving when Dean upsets him b/c he knows Dean has abadonment issues."

    Well by Sam's own admission he "was wrong every time [he] did it". Abandoning someone because you don't like the way they are doing something is exactly what Carver is trying to fix here, and regarding this fault in Sam, I am in total agreement with him. Being a Sam fan (as I am) doesn't mean ignoring his faults, because IMO you do a disservice to the character. It is extremely childish, and something even Sam is aware of in himself.

    "Sam has every right to leave if he doesn't want to hang around Dean, and if that's upsetting to Dean, then he needs to get over." You see Lala this is exactly why nobody can claim the moral high ground with the brothers because this exact argument can be used agains Sam. Sam has possession issues, and Dean completely ignored this in order to do what he felt is right. I am not saying that Dean is right here, just that ignoring how your actions impact on others is what has got the brothers to this point. Ignoring Sam's desertion (in Dean's eyes) as a catalyst to stirring up Dean's deepest fears blinds one to understanding Dean's reactions based on this fear for his brother, just as ignoring Dean overriding Sam's needs (in Sam's eyes) as a catalyst to stirring up Sam's deepest fears blinds one to understanding Sam's reactions based on his own fears.



    You see based on your argument Dean fans can say the same thing … Dean has every right to save his brother because last he heard Sam said he wanted to live, and if that upsets Sam then he needs to get over it. This is such a circular argument and until both sides see how destructive it is, the Sam/Dean wars are set to continue. Boring and repetitive


    Please don't see this as a personal dig at you Lala, I am just trying to expose how destructive this type of arguing is to the enjoyment of experiencing both brothers' pov

    ReplyDelete

NOTE: Name-calling, personal attacks, spamming, excessive self-promotion, condescending pomposity, general assiness, racism, sexism, any-other-ism, homophobia, acrophobia, and destructive (versus constructive) criticism will get you BANNED from the party.