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Supernatural - Episode 9.13 - Discussion: The Problems with Saving Each Other

Feb 9, 2014

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For the first time this season, I was relieved and excited to get what I expected to be a fun standalone episode. But while watching The Purge, Sam and Dean’s visit to the world of weightloss resorts, two thoughts came to mind:

1. Sam and Dean just aren’t as much fun when they’re fighting
2. We’ve seen this split before, and it didn’t start with Carver

I’m going to break from my usual format for this review, and instead of analyzing the details of this episode that no one cares about, I’m going to focus mostly on these two thoughts.

# 1 – This isn’t fun
“Haven't you ever been in a relationship where you really love somebody and still kinda wanted to bash their head in?” (Sex & Violence)

Sam and Dean have issues. I think there are two levels to what we’re seeing here – the emotional fallout from a betrayal of trust, and a fundamental difference in philosophy (which I’ll dig into in the second section). But first, I want to address the emotional part.

Despite what Sam is currently saying, Sam and Dean are brothers, and family does lash out at each other in hurtful ways to degrees where politer friendships wouldn’t dare to go. While Sam inserted the knife last week, saying they could hunt together but wouldn’t be brothers, this week he turned it. Sam reminded and reaffirmed that they are not brothers anymore, suggested Dean keeps swooping in to save Sam because Dean can’t be alone, and finally said that if the circumstances were the same, he wouldn’t have done the same thing (tricked Dean into becoming possessed to save him).

We mostly see Supernatural through Dean’s eyes. The first half of the season, while Dean was making the deal with the angel he presumed to be Ezekiel, we saw mostly Dean’s perspective and the guilt he was feeling. He knew he was doing something Sam wouldn’t want, and that Sam would eject the angel if he knew the truth. We also saw Dean express that he didn’t have a choice, and that he was doing what he had to do. And we got a full flashback episode reinforcing what we’ve learned in the past about Dean’s childhood – how he gave up a lot to be there for Sam.

Now it was time for Sam’s reaction – and react, Sam did, with words that seemed to cut deeply into Dean’s heart and crush him.

There has been a lot of backlash toward Sam in the fandom, so I want to start by addressing some of the comments I’ve been reading online. Sam does have an idea what Dean has given up for him. You can never totally know what’s in another person’s head, but Sam and Dean come about as close to understanding each other as people come. Sam knows that Dean is headed down a self-destructive path. You could see it on Sam’s face when Dean talked about needing to go off on his own because he was poison, and I’m also attributing Sam’s decision to stay close to Dean by continuing to hunt with him, even though he’s really, really angry at him, as concern. He’s still too angry to let Dean see that concern, so it comes out when Sam’s alone – such as hunting down a roofie-dropping cook at the resort. Sam saw and briefly reacted to the Mark of Cain, realizing it meant trouble. But it’s also likely that Sam wasn’t surprised by it. He knew Dean would do something self-destructive. Making unholy alliances that lead to more blood and hurt has become just another day on the job for them these days, but I’ll get more into this topic in the second section. And if there was any doubt that Sam noticed the Mark of Cain and understood it was significant, it was confirmed when Sam heard that Dean say he had been up all night researching it, and didn’t flinch.

Sam knows that Dean can’t be alone, and that giving up his brother would crush him. Sam confirmed that when, in season 5, he made Dean promise to contact Lisa, and again at the end of season 6, when he chose to take in the Hell memories so that he could be there to support Dean. Sam also knows what family means to Dean, and that’s exactly why he told Dean that they wouldn’t be brothers, and reminded him again of it in this episode. Sam was deeply hurt by Dean actions and Dean isn’t even acknowledging the real problem. Dean says their friction will blow over with a couple of wins, and reminds Sam that he doesn’t break that easy. But that’s part of the problem. Sam needs to get Dean to break. Dean needs to realize the seriousness of what he did, and playing the brother card was one way to do that.

Sam has good reason to feel hurt. While Dean has supported Sam through most of their lives, Sam has also supported Dean, although often without any acknowledgment or thanks. When Dean asked Sam to come with him to find their father in the pilot, Sam did, putting at risk an interview with Stanford (everything he had worked for) that was scheduled for after the weekend. Sam stood by Dean after Dean had sold his soul and tried what he could to get Dean back from Hell. He even attempted to trade places with Dean in Hell. When Sam wanted to die at the close of season 6, and move on to a happy fantasy existence with Jess or the bartender, Sam chose to take back his Hell memories and return to living so that Dean wouldn’t be left alone. And when he thought Dean was in danger in Repo Man, Sam “let in” his Lucifer hallucination because he thought it could help him tap into information that he had for forgotten so that could help Dean.

He’s repeatedly asked Dean for respect and to be treated as an equal partner, and while Dean has moments of doing this, he often reverts back to making decisions for Sam and blaming Sam even for things Sam had little control over – for example his soullessness and letting Lucifer out of the cage (they both know that Sam couldn’t have known that killing Lilith would let Lucifer free). Dean is still referring to Sam’s alliance with Ruby a betrayal even though the two things that might constitute a betrayal (lying and working with a demon) are things Dean has also done many times over.

One of the more controversial quotes this week was Sam saying that Dean was thinking of himself when he made the choice to let Zeke/Gadreel possess Sam. Here is the exchange:

Sam: “Ok. Just once, be honest with me. You didn’t save me for me. You did it for you.”
Dean: “What are you talking about?”
Sam: “I was ready to die. I was ready. I should have died. But you, you didn’t want to be alone. That’s what all this boils down to. You can’t stand the thought of being alone.”
Dean: “Alright.”
Sam: “I’ll give you this much, you are certainly willing to do the sacrificing. As long as you’re not the one being hurt.”

Is Sam forgetting that Dean’s first deal to bring Sam back sent him to Hell where he was tortured? No, Sam’s not. But even at the time, the two had a conversation in which Dean admitted that the deal was preferable to being left behind. This was was said:

Sam: Yeah, well, you're a hypocrite, Dean. How did you feel when Dad sold his soul for you? 'Cause I was there. I remember. You were twisted, and broken. And now you go and do the same thing. To me. What you did was selfish.
Dean: Yeah, you're right. It was selfish. But I'm okay with that.
Sam: I'm not. Dean: Tough. After everything I've done for this family, I think I'm entitled. Truth is, I'm tired, Sam. I don't know, it's like there's a, a light at the end of the tunnel.
Sam: It's hellfire, Dean.

It’s hard to imagine that dying, and even going to Hell, would be the easier choice, but for the Winchester family it has been the preferred one. While John was willing to sacrifice himself, he was not willing to sacrifice Dean. And while Dean was willing to sacrifice himself, he was not willing to sacrifice Sam. Were the actions selfish? In season one’s Devil’s Trap, Dean turns the discussion around and accuses Sam and John of being the selfish ones in trying to sacrifice themselves to get the demon. It’s a complicated question, and the issue may comes down to the fact that while hunting, Sam and Dean are taking on more risk they’re comfortable accepting. They’re all in when it comes to sacrificing themselves, but family is their weakness. And that brings us to section 2.

#2 – We’ve seen this before
“Either you're in or you're out.” (We Need to Talk About Kevin)

When this show started, things were more simple. In the season one episode Faith, both Sam and Dean were horrified by finding out that someone had lost his life so that Dean could live. But gradually, their attitudes shifted. While both remained heroes in that they were willing to sacrifice their own lives to get the bad buy, they lost their way facing consequences of losing a brother. When that happened, they waffled and backed out, even if that meant much worse consequences than the ones they originally sought to fix. We’ve seen over and over that the cost of saving one family member’s life has resulted in the deaths of several, if not many more, innocent people. And it has also led to unholy alliances with evil supernatural creatures that Sam, Dean, and John would have never imagined that they would be dealing with in season one. Examples are Dean’s deal with the crossroads demon to bring Sam back, Sam’s alliance with Ruby, Sam’s willingness to work with the Lucifer hallucination, and now we see Dean not only working with Crowley, but bearing the Mark of Cain – a symbol of murder.

At the start of season 8, when Dean was newly out of Purgatory, he talked about a purity in being there. While he didn’t elaborate much on what he meant, Dean’s purpose in Purgatory was uncomplicated. The objective was clear – stay alive. The monsters were monsters, and there was no family, obligations, guilt, and consequences weighing him down. Whereas in the real world he can only be truly “in” so long as family isn’t threatened, in Purgatory he could have both feet in. I think Dean wants to have both feet in, and he sees himself as both feet in. In fact, this language was used in a couple of instances in First Born, when he tells Cain, “I’m an all-in kind of guy,” and he later asks Cain, “Are you in or out?”

Watching this past episode, I was reminded the season 1 finale Devil’s Trap – a fitting name for where I think the escalation of this all really began.

In Devil’s Trap the debate around the question – should they sacrifice family for the hunt – came to a head. In was then that the sides were formed. On one side stood John, who at least in Sam and Dean’s perception of him, wouldn’t want the Colt’s bullets wasted on the wrong demons to save his sons, if it meant losing their chance to kill YED. On the other side was Dean, who put family above the job. He tells Sam, “Killing that guy, killing Meg. I didn’t hesitate, I didn’t even flinch. For you or Dad, the things I’m willing to do or kill, it’s just, uh .... it scares me sometimes.” In the middle was Sam. He starts off on John’s side of this debate, but when faced with the decision of whether to kill John with YED inside of him, Sam is pulled in two directions with John begging Sam to pull the trigger and Dean begging him not to. Sam listens to Dean, and his decision starts a chain of events that leads to John not only losing his life but being sent to Hell while YED lives, Sam dying, Dean selling his soul, the breaking of the seals, Sam going to Hell himself, and the chaos in Heaven that follows the Apocalypse.

Gabriel spelled it the issue nicely in Mystery Spot when he says, “This obsession to save Dean? The way you two keep sacrificing yourselves for each other? Nothing good comes out of it. Just blood and pain. Dean's your weakness. And the bad guys know it, too. It's gonna be the death of you, Sam. Sometimes you just gotta let people go.”

Death also weighs in Appointment in Samarra by teaching Dean the lesson that by saving one person he wasn’t meant to save, he disturbed the natural order and the results was more deaths. He tells Dean, “You and your brother keep coming back. You're an affront to the balance of the universe, and you cause disruption on a global scale.”

Saving each other
Dean: “All right, you wanna be honest? If the situation were reversed and I was dying, you’d do the same thing.”
Sam: “No, Dean. I wouldn’t. Same circumstances, I wouldn’t.”

While Sam could very well be referring only to the angel possession in this dialogue, I read it as having a double meaning. I wanted to finish his sentence for him: “No, Dean. I wouldn’t. Same circumstances, I wouldn’t. [And I can say without hesitation because when you were in Purgatory, I had the opportunity to get you out but I made a deliberate choice not to.]” I’m reading a lot more into this than what was said, but like a lot of fans, I felt Sam was being written as uncharacteristically evasive in his response to Dean regarding his actions following Dean’s disappearance. This explanation would make sense [sort of]. It would fit that he didn’t tell Dean that he chose not to get him out because he knew Dean wouldn’t understand, and that the knowledge would crush him.

And the reason I put in the “sort of [makes sense]” qualifier above is that from season 4 through season 7, Sam was making the same type of decisions that Dean was. As late as Repo Man in season 7, Sam was making unholy alliances, such as with hallucination Lucifer, to save his brother. For this to make total sense, something needs to have happened to Sam between the time Dean disappeared into Purgatory and the time Dean reappeared, to bring Sam to where he is now. The show could still revisit this period through flashbacks or other storytelling devices to show us why Sam is done with using their Supernatural contacts to save each other. Or the show might have planned to frame Sam’s season 8 decision not to look for Dean this way, but afterward backed off because of fan backlash, and that they hadn’t planned for a trigger to explain Sam’s change in point of view. The show may instead be writing the Gadreel possession as the trigger that changes Sam’s perspective and stick with the explanation that Sam thought Dean was dead.

Either way, Sam seems to be in the place of being committed both feet in now. And I think, when he made a comment implying that he resented Dean talking him out of closing the gates of Hell, he was as much mad at himself for listening to Dean as he was for Dean, once again, changing his mind once family was threatened. Sam started season 8, completely out of hunting. He was so out that he had ditched his phones. He was reluctant to start the quest for quest for shutting the gates of hell because he wasn’t sure he wanted to commit. But once he committed, he wanted to follow it to the end. And he accepted Dean’s earlier notion that Dean be the one to the do the trials – not happily, but he backed down until by a twist of fate he ended up killing the hellhound. For a long time we’ve seen Sam have differing opinions, but in the end following Dean’s lead. One major exception to this was when Sam allied with Ruby, but Sam ended up badly burned by this decision. I think what we saw was that Sam is done letting to Dean change his mind, and he’s ready to start asserting himself more in this relationship.

What does this mean?
When Carver rejoined the show as showrunner, he talked about a reset of the show, back to season 1. There has been lots of speculation as to what that means, but I suspect with a reaffirmed commitment to hunting both feet in – which means accepting the loss of family – we might be finally be seeing the results.

But while it’s easy to jump to the conclusion that the preferred, “right” point of view according to the show is Sam’s current state of mind, I’m not sure that’s so clear.

There’s been another message presented throughout the series, and that is that family makes them stronger. While love of family started the Apocalypse, it was strength from the family bond that ended it. Their actions started a ripple effect of bringing chaos to Heaven, but it also brought the angels choice, and Cas humanity. Also, just about every victory Sam and Dean has earned over the years has been followed by a worse consequence. Blood leads to more blood, Dean sees himself as a murderer. Also, we’re increasingly getting more point of view from the monsters we meet and being told they’re not much different from hunters.

What I’m finding interesting is that while there was a triangle of sorts in season one related to opinions on hunting and accepting death, there seems to be a new triangle forming, with Cas taking up the role of advocate for nonviolence. By becoming human, Cas is seeing the value of life through fresh eyes, and in the end, he may be the voice to argue that the solution isn’t dying for the cause, but rather walking away from it.

57 comments:

  1. Thanks for this great read, chris684. I'm seeing things much the same as you and I am soooo in agreement with you about Devil's Trap, and the monumental consequences of their actions in it. Not only has Sam learned the hard lessons of the past but as you aptly put it, blood leads to more blood, and I think this is something Sam desperately wants to avoid, so he won't make deals to get what he wants. On SPN, the quickest and easiest thing in the world to do is run to a demon and make a deal, but Sam is choosing to not do that because he considers the big picture, and the cost of such deals to others.


    The question that Dean needs to consider is does he 'want' Sam to make a deal for him in the future if he dies. The answer Dean would give to that question would be very interesting!


    It would be great if there were some additional flashbacks to Sam's year. I've made my peace with Sam not making a deal for Dean, but there is still a lot to be explored between the time Dean and Castiel disappeared and the time he hit the dog. The Leviathans all but vanished on their own, but they were still popping up in Purgatory so they were obviously still being killed so I wonder what happened. However, I don't expect the writers to refer back to last season, mainly because they seem to have the memory of a goldfish!

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  2. Thanks! I feel like I wrote a book, but I had a lot I wanted to say. I feel like some of the pieces to this story are finally starting to come together. It will be interesting to see where both Sam's and Dean's characters go from here. If things just revert back to the way they were before, then I will not be a happy fan.

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  3. This really is well thought out, and gives me some perspective I hadn't considered on Sam's motives. What I fear is most of it being drawing conclusions and personal opinions from what was seen, so that it might just be a case of 'I want to believe it's like that so I'm going to see it like that, and all of the puzzle pieces will form the shape that I chose.' On one hand, I want to see the writers as extremely deep thinkers with a very firm grasp on the show and these character's motivations (which could make your article spot on), but we've been disappointed and led astray in the past with things that seem completely occ, and we struggle to make them 'make sense' with everything we know.

    I definitely prefer to see things with Sam as you just put them, because it makes a lot more sense, but part of me just thinks Sam has become a cold PITA who is acting out of character because the writers and to create drama.

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  4. Except we've been here in season three with Doc Benton the Zombie Frankenstein. Sam found out about his immortality formula and begged Dean to use it to avoid Hell. Dean said no it was a line he wouldn't cross and Sam honored that. He didn't pull pages out of Doc Benton's journal and make up the formula when Dean wasn't looking. He didn't slip the formula into Dean's coffee on the sly. He didn't start taking notes on what kind of organ donor they would need when Dean's body began to fall apart. Sam threw the journal into the grave with Doc Benton and did what Dean wanted. Sam has ALREADY PASSED the "I will treat my brother like a human being who gets to make decisions about his life" test. So Sam has been in a very similar situation and made his peace with doing what Dean wants.

    As for most people in the real world, we make end of life decisions all the time. People make decisions on life support and extreme measures. Dan Savage talks about his mother's death and refusing extraordinary means and how he dealt with that here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADDo5PT_ToI There are many arguments to be made about Dean and Sam's decisions, but belittling real live human beings who have been forced to make incredibly difficult decisions about their loved ones is way, WAY out of line.

    And before you even start. There are not supernatural means in real life, there are accidents and other things that "could have been avoided" and trying to claim that it isn't the same thing is disingenuous and cruel. You ARE declaring that anyone who abides by their loved ones wishes to not be kept alive when it is time to go is not a person because according to YOU "most people in the real world would".

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  5. It is an interesting read and even though I don't agree with a lot of it I do take aboard your points, especially the ones about Sam needing Dean to break. However I don't believe Sam needs this to happen on a concious level even though he is being evasive. Because I don't believe Dean could honestly know what Sam wanted because he bounced around so many motives last season and is now tying what happened in the church to Gadreel. He can be angry about Gadreel sure but blaming Dean about the church is another thing. It is causing Dean to think that not only would Sam not save him with Supernatural means but from a supernatural death with natural ones as well seeing how all Dean did was talk to Sam in that church and nothing more not to mention not looking for him in purgatory.


    However, I do think in many ways Sam needs Dean to break and to actually see Dean break, just like Dean needed to confront himself in Dream a Little Dream and get that he was angry at John. In Sam's head it was Dean that was to come up with a plan to make him live, not Sam to do that. Bobby was comforting and loving, which apart from the bollocking in season 8, for not looking for Dean, Bobby mostly was for Sam. But it was Dean who was confrontational telling him to fight and tasked with coming up with a way for Sam to live, much like a parent would. As much as we see Dean watching over Sam more as parent would a child, in many ways Dean is the parental figure for Sam. As you said he sided with Dean in Devil's Trap not John. But as you grow up you get that your parents are people and need support too.


    Dean needs to truly break because simply Sam has never actually seen Dean fully do that. He's come close but always just about held it together. If Dean truly breaks Sam can see how much expectation he puts on Dean as much as he hates Dean taking over. I say this because Dean turned up and Sam didn't ask for details about what Dean's plan was he simply said 'Yes' in a situation that he knew could possibly going to lengths he didn't want crossed, stressed or not Sam has to see that too if he is become a more mature part of the relationship because I don't see them getting out of this codependency they've got into if Sam doesn't get that if he is not clear on voicing his motives and reasoning they can cause problems for other people.

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  6. I hear you. I used write occasional features about this show for this website, but after the first half of season 7, I was rewatching the episodes, trying to pick up some continuing threads and themes, but I just couldn't do it. About 5 or 6 episodes in, I threw up my hands and quit. Every time I thought I had picked up on something, it was dropped in the next episode with a different writer. They were all writing their own stories, and all had own ideas on the characterizations of Sam and Dean. I started to wonder if they even knew each other. I stopped writing about the show for a while after that point, and when I picked it up this year, it was cautiously. This is the first time I've dared discuss more than one episode at a time for this reason. But I'm happy to say a rewatch of the past few episodes actually strengthened, rather than disproved, my theories, so that's very encouraging as far as seeing some consistency. They still have a lot more work to do, but it's an improvement.


    On my interpretations, I'm probably writing more of an emotional reaction from Sam than will pan out. I tend to be nostalgic for the old Sam with an emotional point of view, but the current writers seem to prefer writing him as Mr. Spock. But I'm 95% confident on Sam's comments about family, and how everything that has gone wrong was because of family, to tie in with the Gabe/Mystery Spot theme. I feel like we've hit over the head with the notion that by bringing each other back they do more harm than good so much over the series - even Mary got into it too when she made a deal with YED - that Sam's words seemed very clear to me when I first heard them.


    Anyway, thanks for commenting.

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  7. I think Dean would say "don't do it," but would be hurt if Sam didn't argue the point, and that's pretty much what happened in early season 8.


    I think the point here has always been that it's the unholy alliances - that ones that go against every instinct - that are trouble. Would Sam try to save Dean if the method was hunter-approved? Of course he would. But consorting with demons or other untrustworthy supernatural beings always bites them in the end. I'm expecting Dean's new partnership with Crowley will come back on him too.


    Even if my theory that there was more to Sam's decision to walk away last year doesn't pan out, the fact that Sam moved on rather than continuing to look for Supernatural ways of finding Dean, I think answers your question about what Sam would do if he were in the situation himself. He used to respond differently, but something's changed for him.

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  8. But when Sam was in a coma in 9.01 and was talking to Dean/Ezekiel, he thought he was talking to himself. He thought that the part of himself that wanted to live (imaginary Dean) had a plan. He basically trusted himself to get through this.


    Sam offered Dean a lot of support the many times Dean was depressed and ready to give up, most notably during seasons 3 and 5. He'll do it again I'm sure, once he gets past his anger. What Dean did was really bad and when he says he'd do it again, he pours more salt in the wound and Sam becomes less forgiving. They seem to be at an impasse.

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  9. That is what I mean. The part that is telling him not to give up and fight isn't Sam himself, it is his vision of Dean. A vision of Dean in his head is to tell Sam what the plan is if he is going to live. Sam isn't doing it 'himself', even in his head Dean is taking the assertive role rather than Sam, where as Bobby (the person the boys continually said was a father figure) is telling him it is okay. Just like Bobby tended to do for Sam when he was alive.

    At no point is Sam challenged to come up with a plan on his own or is it even made to honestly voice his own wants when he is in his own head by the imaginary Bobby or Dean.

    As for Dean breaking, he has never truly broke, sure he has been depressed or has come close and sure he has had Sam's support but it has always been a task that has snapped Dean out of the spiral. Like in season 5 when it was Sam depending on him that snapped him out of it. In season 3 it was being confronted with his own fear. But this time would Dean truly believe he has Sam support as a brother? Does he believe that he really wouldn't deserve to burn.

    And if so is Sam really prepared to see that. Sure we've seen Sam break in a multitude of ways but have we really seen Dean broken to the point where we saw blood junkie Sam or split apart Sam? No and what would that be like as well because Sam isn't going to get 'the suck it up princess speech' from Crowley or Cas because Sam isn't Dean and that worked for Dean and they aren't Bobby and more importantly too much water may have passed under the bridge for that to work and to deal with the codependency to be dealt with.

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  10. S8 is such an anomaly to me that it is hard to discuss.

    One minute, Sam tells Dean he thought Dean was dead, the next he says nothing when Dean asks if Sam searched for him. The logical response of, "No, Dean. I told you I thought you died" was never uttered by Sam b/c Carver was determined to keep them in some forced, contrived conflict.

    And then you had Dean who kept asking so I guess he thought Sam was lying to him?!?!!? Who knows!?!?!? Carver didn't really bother trying to tell a consistent story that made sense - at least he didn't IMO.

    I never actually had a problem w/Sam not looking for Dean. My problem was w/the (crappy IMO) execution of that story. We had Point A (Sam is left in the bldg) and Point C (Sam hooks up w/Amelia three months after Point A) so what happened during Point B? To me, Point B was where the story should have focused, assuming it involved Sam investigating Dean's disappearance and concluding that he died.

    But you are probably right. . . . . under Carver, I'm sure Sam would not do much to save Dean, and I don't expect Dean to do much to save Sam in the future. Such a wonderful new brotherhood Carver is creating for us. I'm so excited to see brothers who barely like each other and won't go that extra step for each other. Just warms my heart.

    Sorry for the sarcasm, but I'm slowly getting over it. It being this show. Haha. I really don't think I'm interested in Carver's Supernatural. He's gutting the characters I loved and the relationship I adored too much for my taste.

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  11. Wow, Percy! We used to be on friendly terms, but since I didn't care for Sam's speech, I guess that's a thing of the past. Haha! Oh well . . . .

    I'm not sure how to respond since that is not even remotely what I said or implied. I did not state any opinion on DNRs, etc. in real life. If you think I'm belittling real life situations, then I guess that's just what you think. I doubt i could convince you otherwise, nor will I try.

    I will say that as a person of faith, declaring that there are NO supernatural means in real life is quite insulting to me. I believe in the power of prayer and have seen it work in my life. But anyway . . .

    No hard feelings on my part. If you feel I'm a terrible person, I guess that's just ow you feel. Happy posting to you!

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  12. I'm going to have to read this a few times over. It's very deep. I feel like I've read so much that basically just says the brothers had a wonderful relationship and now Carver has destroyed it, why doesn't Sam understand love, etc. This relationship has been very much damaged and confused for a long, long time, and I've rarely seen people lay it all out the way you do here. Sam's POV in this episode was very confusing and I understand it a little more now.

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  13. I was with you up until this line: “No, Dean. I wouldn’t. Same circumstances, I wouldn’t. [And I can say
    without hesitation because when you were in Purgatory, I had the
    opportunity to get you out but I made a deliberate choice not to.]” because I think that Carver absolutely destroyed Sam's characterization at the beginning of S8 with his whole imaginary "promise" that the boys wouldn't look for each other. That was total BS he made up out of thin air to support his character assassination of Sam. I don't think Sam would ever do that and I don't think Sam saying he wouldn't force Dean to be an angel condom means that he wouldn't do everything else within his power to save Dean's life. I HATE what these writers are doing to Sam.

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  14. I hated what they did to Sam in season 8. They made him look shifty, unreliable, and incompetent. But playing devil's advocate here, Sam said he thought Dean was dead, and he also referred to this promise not to look for each other. For a normal person, being dead would be the end of the discussion. Promising not to try to bring someone back after they've died wouldn't even need to be said, but the Winchesters have Supernatural contacts that can do those types of things. Before Dean went to Hell he said something along the lines of telling Sam to keep hunting the way their dad taught them to (in other words, don't use your powers and don't get into deals with demons). Before Sam died, he made Dean promise not to try to get him out of the cage. So in a sense, they did have an agreement not to try to bring each other back after they've died.


    What I was implying in this article is maybe Sam did some digging, he found an avenue that felt sketchy, and this time he made the decision not to try to bring Dean back. He didn't tell Dean this directly when Dean came back because Dean would read it as not caring. The dialogue was vague, I know, so this is me trying to connect the dots and speculating.

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  15. That's why I limit the comments I read to mostly those on this site and a few occasional ones elsewhere. Most times I prefer not to know what's going on with the rest of the fandom. ;-)

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  16. I think with being around family, you tend to fall into old roles. Sam started the series more of his own person. But with hunting with Dean all of the time, he's fallen back in the "little brother" role at times. Dean even sometimes still calls him Sammy. Sam needs to get his voice back and push for an equal relationship with Dean - and more importantly, not accept anything less. He's tried that a few times, but he's realized he needs to make it stick.


    I think what he was voicing about the church is that he regrets once again not standing up for what he wanted to do. Sam and Dean see things differently, and what Dean wants isn't always what's good for Sam - so no, Sam can't blindly trust Dean the way he used to when they were kids. The trust issue with the Zeke part is of course on a whole different level.

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  17. But in their line of business, they will likely need supernatural means of saving each other. At the very least, they may need to investigate the situation, and we've already seen that Carver is unwilling for them to even do that.

    I guess if this show continues past next season, Carver is not intending on putting the boys' in mortal danger anymore. I don't think it's fair to start off a season w/one of the brothers dying and then tie the hands of the other brother. For instance, if Sam's throat is slashed, then I guess Castiel won't be called upon to heal him. I know some may consider that petty or different, but I'm not sure how far Carver is taking this. He could just mean extreme situations like possession or he could also be speaking about little situations like the one I described above. Who knows? And that may be a good thing for the show b/c with the introduction of the angels, death has become less meaningful. We all expect Castiel to heal the boys from everything, and I guess that won't be happening now.

    I think I would be happier if Sam had ever been afforded the opportunity to successfully save Dean in a significant way. I was looking forward to him saving Dean from his CRD in S3 but then the writers' strike happened. I was looking forward to seeing him rescue Dean from Purgatory but then Carver came along and nixed that. Maybe it's not good. Maybe it's not healthy, but I loved seeing the Winchesters go to extremes for each other. Yes, Sam's proposal was crazy in S3, but I loved that he thought of it. Heck, he was even willing to undergo that crazy procedure on himself. Absolutely crazy but demonstrated the depth of his love for Dean. It didn't make me think, "You've gone too far, Sam." It's a television show so I was always fine w/the crazy lengths they'd go to save each other.

    I just loved that aspect of the show and have been waiting to see Sam successfully do it for Dean, but under this regime, I have to accept that that's just not going to happen. We're on the road to what seems to be a more normal, regular relationship, which is less compelling for me but I guess it works for others.

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  18. But did Dean actually believe that Sam thought he was dead? From the way the season played, I don't believe he did. He constantly asked Sam if Sam looked for him, but shouldn't the question have been, "Why didn't you try to save me?" Who looks for dead people?

    The early part of S8 is so poorly written, nonsensical, and inconsistent that I find it useless to discuss or analyze.

    Other than trading his soul for Dean, I don't think there was much else Sam could do after NRFTW, which is why Dean encouraged him to keep hunting, etc. If Sam sold his soul, there would have been no point to Dean selling his earlier. Ialso think those are extreme circumstances. Sam being in Hell and Dean bein gin Hell/Purgatory is not natural, so I could see either brother's desire to resctify that situation.

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  19. I don't know what Dean believed. Sam was acting evasive, so that was a big problem. But even if Dean did think that Sam thought he was dead, his expectation might have been that Sam would never stop trying to bring him back because that is what Dean would have done. The old rules about being dead don't apply anymore. Remember we had Bobby saying to Sam in Taxi Driver that he wanted them to try to bring him back, and Sam being noncommittal.

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  20. But even if Dean did think that Sam thought he was dead, his expectation might have been that Sam would never stop trying to bring him back because that is what Dean would have done.
    See, I really don't think so. We saw how angry Dean reacted in S4 when he thought Sam had made a deal to bring him back. He didn't want that and was very upset by the mere thought of it.
    There is a difference in Dean disappearing and Dean being dead in my mind, which is why I found last year's storytelling to be faulty. Sam said he thought Dean was dead, yet Dean kept asking Sam if he looked for Dean. That never made sense to me so I assumed Dean didn't believe Sam, and since Sam never said h thought Dean was dead again, I thought the story had changed.
    But if Carver is saying that Dean expects Sam to resurrect him (Dean) from the dead each time Dean dies, then I think that is highly unreasonable and downright crazy. That would also be highly OOC, IMO. However, if Dean disappears, I think it is very reasonable to expect his brother and hunting partner to, at least, investigate his disappearance. Pre-Carver Sam would have most certainly tried to rescue Dean from Purgatory and would not have thought that was a bad thing to do. The characters are changing, IMO, so it's hard for me to have a handle on them.
    Oh, and I don't remember much about TD. I remember Bobby criticizing Sam for not looking for Dean and calling their promise a "non-promise," which didn't make sense to me b/c according to Carver Sam had done the right thing but no one was supporting him on it. Very bad, inconsistent storytelling, IMO.

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  21. I'm talking about Carver, not Sam. I have no idea what Sam thinks anymore b/c it changes episode-by-episode, but I wonder how far Carver is willing to take Sam on this issue. According to Carver, Sam is suicidal so maybe Sam wouldn't want Castiel to heal him? Who knows at this point?

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  22. I agree. I'm kinda baffled with where the writers are heading with Sam being unwilling to save Dean. It just makes me him bad.


    Carver has to be well-aware of the backlash created in early Season 8 by Sam not looking for Dean. It was NOT well received. Carver was preaching what a "mature" decision that was for Sam. And that left a lot of fans going "WHATTT??" Now I'm not saying that Sam should have turned over heaven & hell to find and rescue Dean, but I would have liked to see that he did a little research or a little digging around. Done something. Not just walked away.


    Carver used the excuse that Sam thought Dean was dead / he had no leads / the promise Sam & Dean made not to bring each other back (which Carver seems to the only person who remembers this promise)...& that is why he never looked. All the reasoning is just so weak.


    For one, when Dean disappeared, it wasn't like there was a dead body left behind that would have given Sam concrete proof Dean was dead. But Dean just "poof," disappeared.


    Sam & Dean keep each other human & grounded & I 100% believe they need one another & that isn't a BAD thing. I just don't get that maturing has to entail severing the brothers bond / making Sam look like a huge, unfeeling jerk. Sam & Dean's relationship is essential to the show's foundation.

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  23. Lala, I enjoyed Sam's crazy idea to save Dean too, but he respected Dean's wishes in the end. That, more than anything, showed his love for Dean, IMO, because we could all see how heartbroken he was. What would you have thought if Sam had tricked Dean into doing what he wanted? I know I would have hated it.

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  24. I get Sam is mad and acting out on Dean which Dean probobly thinks he deserves I mean he did try how many times to tell Sam about Zeeke unfortunately said angel would jump in and threaten dean. Hell Dean wanted to tell him out of the hospital and zeeke stopped him. But not sure when sam died where he thought his soul would go also. Right now heaven is closed down, so he ain't going there. If they closed gates of hell he wouldn't be going there and purgatory as we learned is just for monsters which sam is not. So where are souls going; well gates of hell not closed so souls going there? And also he dies that leaves his brother with the angel problem. Not sure how dean on his own could go up against that and cas without powers. So when he made that statement Dean didn't create the angel debacle and also are we sure the gates of hell would close? only metatron and god know. so dean would be dead not to far after him etiher angels kill him or abaddon rides him. end of series. And Dean also has been keeping sam safe since 4 programmed by dad to do so; so you have to basically deprogram dean not to save sam. He is not going to really understand that no matter what sam tries to tell him. And how nasty sam gets about it. Just some of my thinkie thoughts

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  25. It' a huge writing failure when Sam saying harsh words are seen as worse than Dean taking his free will away, tricking him into possession by an angel and lying for months about it. Remember when Free Will was unshakable and becoming an angel condom was unthinkable? Yeah, I don't like what Carver has done to both Sam and Dean. And if the objective is for us to cheer for a better relationship between the brothers, it's not going to work without focusing on Sam and his feelings as much as Dean's manpain. Right now, the disparity in focus is making Sam look unsympathetic, even though what Dean did to him must have been devastating, given his history with Lucifer, Meg, etc.

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  26. Sue, my understanding is that Heaven is closed to the angels, not human souls.

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  27. as far as we know souls are still going to heaven (or hell or wherever they're meant to go) its only the angels that have been tossed out. So Sam's soul would have gone to heaven.


    Also how much are Sam and Dean actually going to be involved in the restoration of heaven? Seems to me thats Castiel's storyline and is somewhat out of Sam and Dean's reach in terms of how much they can help. So far the heaven issue hasn't affected the Winchesters outside of Gadreel and if Sam had been dead then Gadreel wouldn't have encountered the Winchester's in the first place.


    At the moment Sam isnt really and hasnt really been involved in any of the heaven and heall storylines, he isnt involved in fixing heaven and he isnt involved in trying to stop Abaddon so how him being dead would not have changed that and would not have changed Dean's involvement either. He still could/would be the one to go and kill Abaddon at the end of the season anyway.


    Also I agree Dean is thick headed so talking to him isnt going to get the point across, my thinking is if the writers want to have Sam's view on the brotherhood be the right one then it is going to take Sam showing Dean what he means. I would like to think that they will have Sam save Dean from the Mark of Cain curse at the end of the season but doing i in a way where he has to really think about the consequences of whatever actions he takes. He will need to come up with a plan that doesnt risk anyone else and doesnt mean more problems for them in the future. I just dont know at this point what Carver is really going for with this.

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  28. very well put, it does seem rather disconcerting that Dean seems to be the brother that can not be judged for doing wrong when he has done wrong and Sam this time the victim has been painted the bad guy. I actually like this storyline because it gives Sam the voice he's needed for a long time, he's saying things that need to be said and while the truth hurts doesn mean it isnt the truth. I just hope Carver doesnt flip the storyline to make Dean the one in the right at the end of the season. Carver needs to back Sam up with this storyline not stab him on the back like he did in season 8. I get Carver is a Dean fan boy but he doesnt need to treat Sam like crap to make Dean look better.

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  29. I absolutely agree that I want Sam to be shown to be the "right" one in this case. As much as I wish he had been given more of a voice sooner and more of a voice people would relate to, I also know that fandom is interesting. Some very vocal segments don't want Dean to be seen as making a wrong decision ever. Some started by positing that Zeke was really an undercover angel working to rescue heaven so Dean as right to give him a strong vessel. Others have moved to Gadreel is playing Metatron to save heaven and once he is shown to be a good angel we will all understand that Kevin didn't matter and Sam is wrong to be angry in the least about his possession. Right now large parts of fans are saying that Sam has a right to be mad, but how dare he hurt Dean's feelings so much. There is a real bias that Dean is good and right and that Sam is bad and wrong. The writers could slant things totally towards Sam being right, just like Kripke made Dean totally right in season four. But many fans wouldn't accept that or would go back to the wars of last season when Carver stated he thought Sam did the mature thing and claim Carver only likes Sam. So Dean is being made a woobie even though he violated Sam hideously.

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  30. Well if Dean kills Cain like he was asked to do then Dean will never die so I think that right now Dean can die even with the mark on. I think the more the brothers pull apart from each other I keep wondering will the mark start having an effect. Cain gave Dean the mark because he didn't let sam die and also because he saw alot of dean in him. But you research the mark of cain and you don't want to kill him because you are cursed with the fact you will never die. So maybe Sam can stop him from killing cain. It will be intresting to see the brothers pull apart if they do I mean yes with dean its like beating a dead horse with the issue but daddy helped create how dean turned out. Save sam at any cost. Rambling on sorry.

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  31. I know you may disagree, but it just was't a good speech. I think it should have focused on how Sam felt about the possession and why it upset him so much. I wish Sam had raised the Doc Benton example b/c I believe that would have been a great way to illustrate his point.
    For some reason, the writers decided to have Sam - for lack of a better word - denounce Dean in a very broad, sweeping way. It was too much so Sam's point got lost in the harshness of his words and the broadness of his statements. To me, it was the same as Dean saying Benny had been a better brother to him than Sam had ever been in his life and the idea that Sam had been lying to Dean from the moment Dean picked him up in S1. That was too much and way way OTT. For me, Sam suffered the same fate of bad writing that didn't seek to show his point in a sympathetic way.
    JMO though. YMMV.

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  32. Just to clarify - [b]I agree w/everyone that Dean made the wrong decision in 9x01. I am not disagreeing w/anyone on that.
    I'm saying I liked a show where such a crazy idea like the one in S3 could be proposed and seriously considered by one brother. I'm not saying Sam should have done it, but I like that he thought of it. Post-Carver Sam wouldn't even think of contacting a faith healer, tracking down the Trickster, or coming up w/a crazy idea to save his brother. That's what I feel I'm losing w/Carver at the helm.

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  33. Practically the same situation happened in 7.12 when Dean disappeared in a flash of light and ended up with Elliot Ness. Sam didn't go "Oops, Dean must be dead!" and run away, he found Jody and Bobby's books and worked the case and got his brother back. THAT Sam disappeared somewhere when Carver took over.

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  34. THAT Sam disappeared somewhere when Carver took over.
    He certainly did. Carver is changing the entire show.

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  35. Sam said that Cas was right about not wanting him to die, so I think he may be starting to realize he should live.

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  36. I agree that Dean expecting that Sam would resurrect him isn't true to his character, but I think that was the story that was being told last year. After all, Purgatory is a spiritual plane. If Dean was there it would largely follow that he was dead on some level. I think Dean's ooc reaction got lost in all the yelling about Sam.

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  37. Thank you so much, Chris! Nice to see some reasoned and balanced commentary on what's happening here.

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  38. ["Maybe it's not healthy, but I loved seeing the Winchesters go to extremes
    for each other. Yes, Sam's proposal was crazy in S3, but I loved that
    he thought of it. Heck, he was even willing to undergo that crazy
    procedure on himself. Absolutely crazy but demonstrated the depth of his
    love for Dean. It didn't make me think, "You've gone too far, Sam."
    It's a television show so I was always fine w/the crazy lengths they'd
    go to save each other"]
    x
    Agree completely. You said that so well.

    The length the brothers were willing to go for each other; BOTH Sam and Dean was what made the show. The hunts and legends were great but essentially side-plates to the brothers' relationship.
    Carver has now demolished that relationship leaving a Winchester-shaped hole in the show.
    As the great Mr Spock said. "Nature abhors a vcacuum" so what is Carver going to fill that vacuum with?
    I haven't seen any siigns of a better story-line. Everything Carver has done since he took over has been inconsistent, illogical ,re-hashed and OOC..
    None of his stories have panned out, beginning with Purgatory right up unti now.
    X
    IMO, he is either incompetent as a showrunner for this show ,or simply he couldn't care less about Sam and Dean and in keeping them in character.

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  39. I haven't seen any signs of what this new, "better" relationship is supposed to look like either, Isle. The one where they just do what's reasonable to save each other. What's the fun in that?

    I also agree that absolutely nothing Carver has done in his time as showrunner has been good or lasting. His most interesting story (MOL) was turned into a new set, and that's it. I don't think his heart/mind is with this show. He's still part of "Being Human" from what I hear, and I suspect that's where his real interest lies. There's a reason he ditched this show a few years ago you know. He clearly never bought into Kripke's version since he's slowly dismantling everything Kripke did.

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  40. I dont think the question is really would Sam consider it but more would he consider it and consider the condequences too?
    Was Sam's death a supernatural one? Havent all the deaths on the show been supernatural? No one has died of old age or of natural occuring disease or hit by a car. All the deaths on the show hasve some link to the supernatural world so does that mean that all the deaths on the show have been wrong and it was none of those people's time to go?
    Also just because you can save someone does it mean you should? We're not talking about Dean just opting to give Sam blood or giving the go ahead to a new kind of treatment suggested by a doctor here, we're talking about tricking him into allowing an angel to possess his body.
    If the positions were reversed would Dean be ok with Sam allowing/tricking him into allowing an angel to possess him? Would Dean be happy that Sam didnt consider the consequences? Would be ok with having Kevin's blood on his hands? Would Dean really be ok with being alive at the cost of someone else's life? Would Dean be nearly as forgiving and calm as Sam has been thus far?

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  41. -Cas saving someone doesnt usually mean someone else getting hurt/hidden consequences
    -doing something outragiously extreme to save someone doesnt mean you love someone more than someone who wouldnt do something outrageously extreme. Measuring love by grand/dangerous/extreme gestures says alot about a person.
    -if Sam does save Dean at the end of the season which he most will have to then I hope it is not through dangerous/wreckless/extreme measures, not by going against what he knows Dean would or wouldnt want, not by not giving a shit about the consequences and not just because Sam cant face the possibility of life alone/out of obligation. I hope its done with a lot of smarts, a lot of thought and a lot of love.

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  42. I think its more that he wont go out of his way to die as it wont go looking for it, I still think that Sam believes that when its his time to go (next time) he should go. So not suicidal but willing to accept death if and when it comes. No more being saved bu supernatural means, no more others getting hurt in the process and no more not thinking about the consequences.

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  43. That would have been a line crossed, Dean nor the fandom would have thanked him for it. I personally thought it made a great episode but I knew at the time that it was really a small window as to how far Sam was willing to go not to save Dean but how far off the reservation he was willing to go. It was a very scary insight into Sam's state of mind not a look at how much Sam loved Dean and was willing to go to save him. It was a very believable build up to season 4 Sam. Rightlyfully and thankfully Dean was horrified by the idea and he seemed disturbed by Sam and expressed that he didnt want that and pulled Sam back from doing it.

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  44. I wonder if the writers are having Sam emotionally distance himself from Dean hence the reason he might come across as cold. Sam has been become more emotionally closed of as the seasons have gone on, the end of season 8 when he was openly emotional seemed to come about as an affect of the trials waring him down. If he is now distancing himself fromeven Dean emotionally it wouldnt suprise me, being emotionally invested in anything or anyone has never done Sam any favours. Its hard to say for sure untill we see more episodes and get a better sence of where this is all going. I for one wouldnt mind if Sam became more of an driven, independant, more focused hunter/MOL Sam. Getting emotionally invested in anything isnt going to work out for Sam so if he just focuses on hunting/researching then there is less chance of it all going tits up for him again and as a viewer it would feel less like a waste of time watching Sam's storyline.

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  45. 'As for Dean breaking, he has never truly broke, sure he has been depressed or has come close and sure he has had Sam's support but it has always been a task that has snapped Dean out of the spiral. Like in season 5 when it was Sam depending on him that snapped him out of it. In season 3 it was being confronted with his own fear. But this time would Dean truly believe he has Sam support as a brother? Does he believe that he really wouldn't deserve to burn'
    -When has Sam been truely broken? I'm struggling for examples where he has truely been broken. Blood Junkie Sam was broken? Really? How is that an example of being broken? More to the point who saved Sam from the blood in the end? I'm pretty sure it was Sam who saved himself but giving up the blood. And split apart Sam? Well he put himself back together so he could go save his brother/not leave him out there alone. If these are your so called example of Sam being truely broken apart then surely Dean going to sell his soul when Sam died in season 2 is an example of Dean being truely broken? How about when John died and Dean fell apart and was saved by Sam being there for him? How about season 3 when Dean was on a the self distruct due to the deal and Sam had to pull him back and force Dean to admit that he wanted to be saved and to actually try and not just give up? How about in season 4 'On the Head of a pin' when Dean was lying in hospital pretty much given up/broken? Dean was pretty much broken all the way through season 5 up untill the PONR when it was Sam who helped Dean turn it around. There are loads of examples of Dean being broken and either a task or Sam pulling him back.
    -In season 5 when Dean snapped out of it (im going to assume you meant Beaking Point and saying yes to Michael) it was Sam who pulled Dean back, Sam's belief in Dean. Exactly the same as the season 8 finale when it was Dean's belief in Sam that pulled Sam back from the edge.
    -also if Dean believes that Sam doesnt have his back that he doesnt have his support then why is he still hunting with Sam?
    -if Sam doesnt support Dean then why is Sam even there with Dean?
    Is this an example of a time when Sam needs a 'suck it up princess' speach? what exactly is there for him to 'suck up'? That Dean will do whatever he wants in regards to Sam and Sam will just have to put up with it? That Dean isnt going to change and the relationship isnt going to change and he should just accept it and brace himself for the next time Dean deems Sam needs to have an angel posses him to save him? or the next time one of their friends blood will be on his hands?
    I agree Sam needs to be more vocal with what he wants and his motives, though I think its pretty obvious he doesnt want things to stay as they are with Dean blindly saving him consequences to himself, Sam and the world be damned. Honestly I dont think words are going to be strong enough to get through to Dean I think/I would like to see Sam save Dean in a similar manner to how Dean did this season, maybe a possession by Abaddon and with people being thrown in the firing line. A friend or two could die at Dean's hands and then we'll see if Dean's ok with it, just glad to be saved or if he decides that maybe he doesnt want to be save at any cost.

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  46. 'Same circumstances' not any/all circumstances. Basically No Dean I wouldnt trick you into letting an angel possess you, lie to you about it and end up getting a friend killed by your own hands. Doont see anything wrong with that. The fact that he said 'SAME' circumstances pretty heavily suggests Sam would save Dean and the writers will have Sam save Dean but it wont be done in the same way. Sam wont be tricking/lying/not thinking about the consequences or else the ehow will just be going back to the bullshit Dean is right and they should be saving each other at any cost and we'll have gone around in a completely useless circle.

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  47. I fully believe based on what I've seen for a past few seasons that Dean fully expects Sam to save him at any cost that's why he was so shocked at Sam's confession at the end of The Purge that he wouldnt under the same circumstances because that implies that Sam would save Dean at all cost. All cost would include innocent people dying. Lets not forget that Dean saying he would do it all again the same means that he actually has no problem with Kevin dying if it means saving Sam and so he wouldnt have any problem with someone dying as long as he is saved. Sam has made it clear that other peoples lives are not more important than his own, he doesnt want to be save dat all cost.

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  48. It is rather heavily implied in The Purge that Dean expects Sam to save him at all cost, his reaction to Sam saying he wouldnt and the fact that he confessed that he would do it all again (which included Kevin dying) suggests he has no problem with it. If this isnt what he wants then he needs to make it clear and well if he has a problem with it then doesnt that actually just validate Sam's whole arguement? I fact if neither wants to be saved at all cost then what the heck is the whole arguement about? Why wouldnt Dean just agree that Sam is right and then they both move on? This is only a problem between them because they both have different views/expectations. Sam is against being saved at all cost and Dean is for it?

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  49. I like the new direction I think most fans do as the ratings wouldne be so good, remeber the online fandom doesnt remotely represent the whole of the viewers (certainly not the important ones anyway it seems).

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  50. The storyline this season is heavily implying that that is Dean's line of thinking, otherwise there would be no problem between the brothers and this storyline wouldnt exsist. Is it OCC? Maybe but Sam has often been written OCC to suit the plot so why not Dean?

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  51. Compared to this season where aparently everyone has glossed over the fact that Dean expects Sam to save Dean at any cost? I'd say Sam does look like the mature one.

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  52. haven't seen any signs of what this new, "better" relationship is
    supposed to look like either, Isle. The one where they just do what's
    reasonable to save each other. What's the fun in that?


    Well my favorite time during the relationship was seasons one and two. Then they were doing what was reasonable to save each other. Yes, Sam took Dean to a faith healer, but lots of people go to faith healers. I live in Akron Ohio where Ernest Angely (who owns the CW affiliate) heals people weekly on his Ernest Angley Hour, so going to a faith healer wasn't unreasonable. Plus Sam had NO IDEA that saving Dean would mean someone else would die. Right up until AHBL2 Sam and Dean did limit themselves to reasonable ways to save each other. The deal that Dean made shifted what they would do to save each other and twisted into something that became toxic and dangerous.

    As to how this healthier relationship would look, I again look back to seasons 1and 2 and parts of season three. During those seasons Sam and Dean were relearning each others strengths and weakness. In season one they were building a balanced relationship where they listened to each other and put trust in each other. Sam saw Dean finally moving beyond "Dad said to do this" Dean started to see Sam as an adult who could be relied upon to have his back AND come up with good an decent plans to deal with the various monsters. The seasons where they became more focused on saving each other became horribly imbalanced as Dean lost trust that he never regained in Sam and Sam's belief in himself never really recovered from his mistakes with Ruby. So yes, I can envision a healthier better relationship between Sam and Dean. One that I, personally would enjoy more than what has been in evidence since season four.

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  53. Honestly, I don't know anymore. Carver, in MY opinion, has changed the characters so I have no idea what they think or want at this point.



    Maybe Carver's Dean would want Sam to slaughter the world to bring him back from death? I don't know. That would be ridiculously OOC and does not resemble the Dean I've been watching over the years but who knows? My opinion doesn't count.



    Under Carver, FOR ME, their relationship is in the crapper so it really doesn't matter anymroe. I can't promise to not be shocked at what OOC crap Carver has them say next, but it is what it is.

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  54. You talking to me again? Though you had decided against that.

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  55. I remember Bobby criticizing Sam for not looking for Dean and calling
    their promise a "non-promise," which didn't make sense to me b/c
    according to Carver Sam had done the right thing but no one was supporting him on it. Very bad, inconsistent storytelling, IMO.
    To me, SoulBobby's speech in T was the biggest "Huh?" moment of the episode; not only did Bobby say he taught the boys that agreement, a complete falsehood however one may connect the dots between the boys making the agreement (and that it was a non-agreement just as Dean told Sam in 8.01), his speech ran totally counter to what ghostBobby said in the S7 finale "When it's your time, go"). And Bobby's speech and Sam's reaction pretty much implied that Sam knew Dean was alive in Purgatory and made the deliberate choice not to do anything, including researching any ways to get him out which made Sam look like and even bigger dbag to fans.



    I agree if Carver's intent was to show that Sam made the mature decision he botched it, big time, because no character affirmed that Sam took the 'mature' path.

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  56. Yeah . . . . that was the problem w/that story. Literally NO character supported Sam. Heck, Sam didn't even vehemently argue his point. Very silly story.

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  57. It's outrageously bad storytelling that S8's Carver!Sam had to rely on only himself the only support for this new 'maturity' - through HeadBobby in (Coma!Sam) - in the S9 premiere. Affirmation that one has 'done well' is not 'bad thing, but 'Sam' patting himself on his back thru 'Bobby' - not it's is not all well earned from my and many fans perspective - makes 'Sam' look even more 'arrogant/self-important' to other fans.

    I really liked the S9 premiere because Carver did such a good job of storytelling through both brothers' POV even though Sam was in a coma for all of the premiere. I'd say Carver (through the other writers) is now (9.10 on) heavily drawing on the entire 'Sam/Dean/Dean-'Zeke' sequence in Coma!Sam's head for 'now Sam's' (again, 9.10 on) convos with Dean as a 'redo" of Carver's attempt to convey Sam's 'maturity' in S8. To me the sequence of RealDean's 'seeing' (via Fake!Zeke inserting him as an observer in 'Sam's' mind) that Sam was ready to go with Death is very important.

    The writers are trying to convey Sam's post-possession POV but they're doing it with the hammer instead of a scalpel - I wish we had Sera or Ben back; they both knew how to write a nuanced, upset Sam..

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