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POLL : What did you think of Supernatural - The Purge?

5 Feb 2014

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189 comments:

  1. ScottA5 February 2014 at 03:00

    The rift grows bigger. Maybe Snooki can save it next episode.

    ReplyDelete
  2. klutzy_girl5 February 2014 at 03:01

    I was literally dreading this episode and freaking out because I was worried there'd be insulting fat jokes. I was pleasantly surprised by how good it was.


    Sam/Jared looked so good tonight! I approve.

    And ow, I did not like that ending. Sam was totally lying. SOMEBODY FIX THIS.

    ReplyDelete
  3. MythAl5 February 2014 at 03:02

    It was an OK episode. Lose big points for Dean saving Sam AGAIN.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Kaye2375 February 2014 at 03:06

    The conversation at the end reminds me of the guy in Crossroad Blues, when Dean told him he sold his soul not for his wife, to save her,but cause he couldn't live without her, that he did it for himself and what the Trickster said in Mystery Spot that they tendacies of always saving each other no matter what cause problems and deaths :( It's sad

    ReplyDelete
  5. Freda5 February 2014 at 03:07

    I liked the main portion of the episode, but was kinda
    grossed out by some of the scenes. I really don’t know what to think about the
    end – I am going to need to watch it again tomorrow.

    One of the best parts about the episode was that Sam
    interacted more with everyone (with Dean, with victims and with side
    characters). He actually felt like a hunter this episode even though Dean saved
    him at the end. It was hysterical that he left Dean drugged on the floor to go
    confront the drugger.

    The episode was also littered with great quotes between the
    two brothers. Even though, they reiterated that they weren’t going to be
    brothers at the beginning and at the end, they felt more like brothers in the middle
    part of the episode than most of season 9:

    Dean to Sam – “You’re weird around girls.”

    Dean – “Nice shorts.” Sam – “Nice haircut”

    Sam – “You’re not the only one who has dated someone bendy.”

    Sam – “How do you know what roofies look like?” Dean – “How
    do you not know what roofies look like?”



    And on a side note – I completely heard “Fish Tacos” the
    first time the lady said what creature she was.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Misty Pebworth5 February 2014 at 03:09

    It was an ok episode. Decent monster concept. Sam ticked me off with his whole don't kill to monster. Will the writers /please/ decide which brothers feel what about monsters? Because I'm losing track. Where was sam's 'heart' with Benny?

    For that matter, this episode would have gotten higher marks from me except for the last 'talk' between 'brothers', and I use both words loosely at this point. The writers seem intent on making Sam seem like a jerk who doesn't give a crap about family or brothers or anything except how he was wronged by dean.

    I've enjoyed the show sense carver took over, but I do not like how this is going. Sam didn't even look for dean when dean was lost in purgatory. He never gave a satisfactory answer, other then that he had moved on. So why should it surprise me that apparently Sam would just let dean die?

    The only redeeming possibility for me is to think that maybe Sam sees death as a relief, a positive outcome, and so wouldn't save dean because he believed dean would be better off, but honestly, that's me tasting for straws, because at this point Sam seems determined to blame dean for EVERYTHING bad.

    What I gathered from this episode? Sam thinks Dean is worthless. And honestly, that seems way ooc for Sam, and upsets me.

    ReplyDelete
  7. CP5 February 2014 at 03:09

    Better episode than expected, but the ending - ack.


    "Go ahead man, I'll catch up." lol Dean's extra funny drugged up.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Shannon5 February 2014 at 03:10

    Just a filler. Didn't really have my eyes glued to the tv, it was OK. But i got really sad for the brothers in the last 5 min. And i'm sorry, but i can't help but agree with Sam. But what he said to Dean, seeing Dean's eyes pop out of shock, also broke my heart. I knew that was really tough for Dean to hear. But i get what Sam is saying.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Misty Pebworth5 February 2014 at 03:10

    Yeah Sam certainly doesn't have that problem anymore. He might have been the one to drop the piano on dean by this point.

    ReplyDelete
  10. lala25 February 2014 at 03:11

    Am I supposed to be rooting for these two to resolve their differences? With each conversation they have or explanation Sam gives, I feel as if I'm being stabbed in the heart.

    The heart of this show is dying, IMO. Honestly, I don't care if the brothers ever reconcile. They way they relate is being fundamentally altered in the name of "maturity," and it is nothing I wish to see. Sam doesn't seem all that interested in reconciling w/Dean anyway so I honestly think Dean needs to find a new partner. They can go their separate ways.

    What is so special about their relationship if neither cares if the other is dying? Why would I be invested in that? And Sam confirms that he doesn't want to be brothers w/Dean. Nice. Again, if Sam doesn't want to be Dean's brother, then why is Dean hanging around? Why don't they just split and be done w/it?

    Carver has ruined this show for me. I know some will say he's ruining the brothers to re-create them, but I have no interest in Carver's version of "Supernatural."

    ReplyDelete
  11. Misty Pebworth5 February 2014 at 03:13

    Since and grasping, not sense and tasting. Dang iPad won't let me fix what it autocorrected.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Peter J45 February 2014 at 03:14

    He doesn't want to be brothers as in a suicide pact.


    I think Sam cares a great deal about Dean, but he's trying to show how far it goes.


    I thought, for once, Sam was clear in that last scene. Maybe because he was asked direct questions, I don't know.


    My heart breaks for Dean, but I feel like he needs to hear this. He has no value as a person in his own right. He needs to find himself.

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  13. K. L. Townsend5 February 2014 at 03:14

    Okay, so, I was enjoying the episode until the end. I wish the show didn't make Sam so unsympathetic. I understand, maybe, what the writers are trying to accomplish. But seriously. So many of us watch because we love the bickering and banter, and the how much Sam and Dean care for each other, even the lengths they are willing to take. I don't want to get into the codependent argument because I believe you can still hold onto their bond and also move them to a more healthy relationship. I keep hoping it's all one big fakeout. I have less faith that's the case, though.

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  14. Kaye2375 February 2014 at 03:15

    I don't see Sam as a jerk or someone who doesn't care about family. He was clearly worry about Dean when he called drugged, but he just start to realise what monsters and creatures have been telling them forever, that all their crazy stunts to cheat deads cause more problems, more deaths. Death and the Tricksters are the ones who pop in mind the fastest.


    The ''just let Dean die'' to me felt more like he meant he's gonna protect him, take care of him, but if he's death or impossible to save (like Sam in the hospital in the premiere), they can't keep on cheating death without huge consequences

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  15. lala25 February 2014 at 03:15

    I hated that conversation as well as all the others. It honestly felt like I was being stabbed in the heart. My heart hurt for Dean so much. All I'm getting from Sam is "you do more harm than good" or "I was ready to die." I just need more than those statements to really understand him.

    When he sat down at the table, I was hoping he would finally explain what he meant by his comments, but he just doubled down on them. Where's the brotherly love? I feel nothing btw them right now. It's very disheartening and has made my interest in the show plummet to new lows. Haha!

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  16. lala25 February 2014 at 03:17

    I wish they didn't either, but they do it so well. I love Sam. I understand - in theory - why Sam is angry. I don't think it was right for Dean to allow Gadreel to possess Sam, but I still left the episode thinking, "Screw you, Sam. Dean just ditch him."

    I don't want to feel that way, but the writing continues to do Sam no favors, IMO.

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  17. Peter J45 February 2014 at 03:17

    The good:

    Once it got going, this was actually a genuinely creepy and frightening episode, more than any in quite a while. The tongues, the fight scene at the end, etc.


    Several interesting female characters, who had their own voices and views, and got to live.


    Sam finally got a strong, clear POV.


    The last scene was beautifully acted.


    The bad:


    Shaming of people who are not thin.


    I have a really hard time believing that Dean and Sam would lave stuff to identify them in their car, which can be easily broken into.


    I think they could do more to show that Sam still cares about Dean and is looking out for him, to offset the idea that he hates Dean.

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  18. Misty Pebworth5 February 2014 at 03:20

    I like carver, and I liked the way things were going for a while, but now.. Ever since sam's joining the 'I hate dean' club..I've started to hate this show. The MAIN reason most people still each his show is the brotherly bond that has carried through impossible adversity, so....now the solution is to turn Sam into a jerk and completely crush Dean's spirit???

    So yeah, I sadly agree with you on every point. I barely even care now if they 'reconcile'. Sam has said some pretty unforgivable stuff, and it seems WAY ooc for him.

    Wtf is Carver thinking?

    ReplyDelete
  19. Kaye2375 February 2014 at 03:21

    ''I believe you can still hold onto their bond and also move them to a more healthy relationship. ''

    I feel like that's what the show and Sam want to go to. You can care really really really much about something or someone, and do everything in your power to protect and save it, but doing deals with demons, with angels and all isn't healtly. Doing those deals isn't too heathly. My heart was breaking for Dean, but I understand what Sam was saying

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  20. lala25 February 2014 at 03:21

    He doesn't want to be brothers as in a suicide pact.

    But again, that is not what Sam said. Sam didn't explain it like that. He said, "I was willing to die" and "you do more harm than good" and "no, I would never do anything to save you, Dean" - and yes, I know he didn't really say that last line I gave but that's show it felt to me.

    If the writers would take two seconds to just break down what Sam is talking about, it would go a long way, IMO.

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  21. Misty Pebworth5 February 2014 at 03:22

    Hmm..I actually like your view point. I'm not sure I can agree based on how I interpreted what he said, but I want to. It would certainly be more in character for Sam then how it seems now! But how do you explain the whole 'we're not bro there's' crap that he keeps insisting?

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  22. lala25 February 2014 at 03:23

    I have no idea. I'm not sure what Carver is trying to accomplish w/this destruction of the very foundation of the show. It's clear he's not reading the scripts to suggest toning down some of the harsh/cold dialogue they're giving Sam.

    I just don't know. My bi-bro heart is pretty devastated, and I didn't think things could get worse than last year.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Misty Pebworth5 February 2014 at 03:25

    Thank you. This. ^

    ReplyDelete
  24. K. L. Townsend5 February 2014 at 03:26

    I think part of the problem is that we get Sam POV so rarely that when something big like this comes up, it's harder to relate to him. We constantly see Dean's POV, thoughts, and emotions, so we know where he stands. Even when he does something controversial, we can usually empathize with him. Since we don't get that for Sam, we don't have a chance to really empathize with him. Poor guy comes off the jerk.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Peter J45 February 2014 at 03:26

    I know what you mean, but I feel like Sam is in a place where he is being as blunt as possible to make sure this doesn't happen to him again. I think he still loves Dean and will fight for him. I do wish the writing would show this. I just feel like he has to say this stuff now.

    ReplyDelete
  26. lala25 February 2014 at 03:27

    Everything you said is fine, but that's not what Sam said, and that's the problem. We can come up w/great interpretations of his comments but the comments, themselves, are quite cold and distant - to me - and that is a major problem.

    I know Sam loves Dean, but you wouldn't know that from that last talk.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Peter J45 February 2014 at 03:27

    I think he means they're not brothers as in selling souls and making deals.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Kaye2375 February 2014 at 03:29

    Sam wouldn't hurt his brother, he would still protect him as much as he can. But he wouldn't cheat death by making all kind of deals with the bad guys. Like Dean said in No rest for the wicked, to stop being martyr, stop being used by all sort of creatures cause of the un-heatly part of the codependance. The boys have been having this chat since the first couple of seasons, they just fell into the same old trap over and over again.


    The same difference here is that Sam want that cycle to stop, but that doesn't mean he doesn't love his brother or wouldn't protect him

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  29. Jay Atkinson5 February 2014 at 03:29

    I think it is really clever of the writers, actually, to finally be addressing this issue. They die and bring each other back, all the time. To the point that there is no tension or risk to them. But now, if they both decide that should one die or be on the verge of death for a greater cause, they actually let them die. Permanently. Well, I'd personally feel a little more sense of suspense going into each episode. Besides, ever since heaven was revealed, I have no idea why they were so desperate to keep each other alive, especially at the expense of closing Hell's Gates.

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  30. K. L. Townsend5 February 2014 at 03:31

    I just wish they would write it in a way where it doesn't come off cold or distant.

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  31. Kaye2375 February 2014 at 03:32

    I don't see as Sam not caring if Dean was dying, he clearly stated what he said what ''if the circonstances were exactly the same'', if the only way to save his brother was by letting him getting possessed against his will. It's not like he doesn't care if Dean was dying. He was worry and rushed pretty fast after the drugged phone call

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  32. Misty Pebworth5 February 2014 at 03:32

    I don't know about this really..because we've known Sam for /so/ long now, and we do see Sam's pov a lot. It's just different and contrary to what we've come to understand of him. I miss the Sam in the church who prayed and still had faith and a degree of innocence.

    I guess I sometimes forget that he was Lucy's plaything in hell for who knows how long, and he's changed over the years.

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  33. Peter J45 February 2014 at 03:34

    I feel like we haven't seen Sam's POV since season 5, if even then. It's just been plot points and Sam being a victim. Now we're finally getting some but I think it's a system shock for a lot of viewers.

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  34. Shannon5 February 2014 at 03:38

    LOL you poor thing. Idt there was any explanation needed. I mean with his speech i guess you just had to read between the lines. There is A LOT of brotherly love between them. There's no doubt about that despite what Sam said. I guess in short the ONLY way i can explain it to you is....Sometimes you have to know when to cut the cord, b/c if you don't you're forever stuck.

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  35. K. L. Townsend5 February 2014 at 03:39

    See, that's where I disagree. I don't think we've seen Sam POV all that much. Because he's usually the big mystery - S3, what's wrong with Sam? S4 - what's wrong with Sam? S6 - what's wrong with Sam? etc... he's pov is kept in the dark for as long as possible. If they are going with this viewpoint that Sam has, I need more than the cold statements he's saying right now and the Purgatory stuff from last season. Heck, even a throw away line like, "Every time we come back something worse happens, and I couldn't do that to you" would suffice. Castiel's even commented on punishment resurrections.

    It's just hard because the brother bond is what sold me on the show and I haven't been enjoying it much lately. But I still want to love the show and don't want to quit.

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  36. thesilentpoethosea5 February 2014 at 03:40

    I thought I was the only one having this problem. This has happened far too many times this season.

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  37. Kaye2375 February 2014 at 03:42

    The way I see it, every single time in the serie the boys did a huge stunt to bring the other back from the door of Death or death litteraly, at some point, somewhere, they said ''Ok, we need to stop doing this, stop being martyr and stop letting ourself be used like that, it's our weak point..blablabla'' but, every single time, they fell back into their old habit, into the old traps and let it go cause they were like ''I had to...cause you're my brother'' or whatever.


    They justify everything, every bad things that happen cause of their actions, under the ''you're family''. I think Sam doesn't want them to act blindly and don't think of the consequence because ''they're family''.

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  38. lala25 February 2014 at 03:43

    All I need is for Sam to quit talking around the issue and just talk about the issue, or rather I wish the writers would quit talking around the issue. We have two big brother conversations in two weeks, and I feel Dean is still probably somewhat in the dark re: the problem. What's the point of these conversations if the issues are never laid out and nothing's resolved.

    So, what I mean is if Sam thinks the brothers shouldn't use supernatural means to save each other, say that! Don't say, " you do more harm than good." That's a very conclusory, judgmental statement that does not open the door for a conversation.

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  39. kerinda5 February 2014 at 03:44

    why do you think he was Lying? tell me that.

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  40. kerinda5 February 2014 at 03:44

    I am sick of it too.

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  41. Kaye2375 February 2014 at 03:45

    He did make a pause to clearly say that his last sentence was if the circonstances were the same. And most of the rest of the comments were made a lot of time during the whole serie ''You made this cause you didn't want to be alone'' ''Doing this and that led to huge consequences ( doing more bad than wrong)''. It just seem like it's fitting with the rest and seem a lot more like it's coming from somewhere. I can't count the number of time they've been told, or said something between them, similar.


    But most of the time they said it between themself, it was so nice and warm, everytime they fell into the trap again, they could justify it by saying ''I did it cause I love you and you're family''. Dean needed to hear it straight to understand it

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  42. lala25 February 2014 at 03:46

    But why is Sam's dialogue always so cold and harsh. He can tell Dean how he feels w/o it seeming like he wants absolutely nothing to do w/Dean. I honestly don't know why the two are traveling together right now. I know why Dean is there, but Sam? I have no clue.

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  43. Kaye2375 February 2014 at 03:50

    Sam knows Dean will listen for 2,4 seconds if he say his speech in a nice way, ending the conversation with a good hug and saying everything is ok cause he knows he did it for love or whatever.They tried the nice approch countless time and it never worked

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  44. lala25 February 2014 at 03:51

    Haha . . . I don't think he's being blunt enough.



    It feels like the writers are skirting around the actual issue - probably saving it for the season finale - and it's beginning to annoy me. We had two conversations in two weeks w/basically the same information except a confirmation that Sam doesn't want to be brothers w/Dean (right now, forever, who knows).



    If Sam is going to continue to give bits and pieces of his opinion instead of the whole thing b/c they want to save it for the finale . . . just save it for the finale.

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  45. Jay Atkinson5 February 2014 at 03:52

    Yeah, me too. But apparently this overestimate how much we enjoy Winchester angst.

    ReplyDelete
  46. lala25 February 2014 at 03:53

    But if this is Sam's breaking point (i.e., I'm gonna walk away forever if this doesn't change), then I would think he would want to make sure Dean knew exactly what he meant and what he wants from their relationship.

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  47. kerinda5 February 2014 at 03:54

    And I can't count the times Dean was cold and harsh too Sam about all the stuff that happen well what goes around comes around.

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  48. Peter J45 February 2014 at 03:55

    I think Sam is there because he does care about Dean.


    Sam has always had a harsh edge. It's just been sharpened more and more over the last 5-6 seasons.

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  49. kerinda5 February 2014 at 03:55

    yes I just kind of wished he said more too but we do not ever get that anymore.

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  50. Peter J45 February 2014 at 03:56

    I don't think this time is about angst. I think they do want to genuinely reset the relationship. We'll see if they do it.

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  51. ScottA5 February 2014 at 03:59

    So with Carver's 10 year plan is he setting up Lucifer and Michael coming back? I just can't see where this latest rift is going.

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  52. Shannon5 February 2014 at 04:00

    Idk hun. I felt this dialogue was very heart felt. And you could see it on Sam's face that he felt horrible about saying it. But at the same time, he has to be honest with Dean. I guess after ALL they've been through, it's like when it's my time to go, please just let me go.


    Think of it as Sam being in a coma IRL, and there's no hope for him to survive, but Dean keeps him on life support forever! Then there's a day where Sam flatlines, but he had signed no resuscitation! Now in that scenario Dean would have to respect his wishes and leave him be.

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  53. lala25 February 2014 at 04:00

    Unfortunately, I agree. Carver's "reset" relationship is one that will be ordinary, normal, and nothing I have any desire to watch.

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  54. lala25 February 2014 at 04:03

    It's just hard because the brother bond is what sold me on the show

    Me too, and this is what I see unraveling - and not in a good way. I haven't liked or appreciated anything Carver has done to the brotherly bond. To me, he has regressed the brothers and reset them for no reason. They were fine at the end of S7. Their relationship didn't need any "fixing," IMO.

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  55. elle j.5 February 2014 at 04:07

    What the hell are the writers doing to this show! Why are they destroying Sam and Dean's relationship? Sam may have a point about Dean's fear of being the last man standing, but it was completely unnecessary for Sam to make this point in such a cold manner. This show hasn't been the same for quite some time now with its poor story telling and character assassinations. It's like the writers are doing everything possible to destroy Sam's integrity starting with him not even investigating what happened to Dean when he disappeared and ended up in Purgatory. I feel this show shifted at the end of Season 5 because it felt like it became more about Dean's journey with everyone else being supporting players to that story. Tonight's show only reinforced my opinion. The only thing I can think of regarding Sam's attitude is that he is depressed and suicidal. Sam is trying to create as much distance between himself and Dean to make it easier on the older brother when the younger one succeeds in killing himself. That is a story viewers could understand
    while allowing fans to see Sam in a different, clearer light. It could even strengthen the brother's bond if the writers don't succeed in destroying it first. Right now though, it seems like the writers are intent on making Dean and Sam into the next Cain and Abel.

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  56. Lise5 February 2014 at 04:07

    When it comes time to save his brother he it will to save. They saved each other in the past, the present and will also in the future. Love and family are always, always stronger.

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  57. lala25 February 2014 at 04:09

    I should watch it again, but I don't really want to see that conversation again. Haha! Sam seemed kind of cold/distant to me. I wasn't sensing much brotherly love from him.

    Oh well. It is what it is. Once the creator of a show is gone, the show won't be the same. I just have to accept that Carver's version of the brother is not one I'm interested in watching.

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  58. lala25 February 2014 at 04:10

    Yes, I agree. Sam definitely cares about Dean and loves him. I, personally, think that love and caring could have been reflected in the dialogue, but that's me. If it worked for others, that's cool. It didn't work for me.

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  59. ScottA5 February 2014 at 04:13

    I gotta think either Michael and Lucifer are coming back at the end of S10 or Dean bites it wasting Abaddon. Heaven and Crowley are just filler at this point. Metatron is just spinning his wheels.

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  60. lala25 February 2014 at 04:13

    Well, I love both brothers. I became invested in the show for the brotherly bond so I'm never happy when I feel one brother is being really harsh/cold/distant w/the other. For example, I hated when Dean threw away the amulet in Sam's face. That was really cruel.

    I don't favor one brother over the other, and I just write what I feel. Tonight, I happened to be upset w/Sam's dialogue, which I found unnecessarily harsh and cold. That's JMO.

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  61. Shannon5 February 2014 at 04:20

    i guess so. : /

    ReplyDelete
  62. kerinda5 February 2014 at 04:22

    yes and I was mad at season 5 what Dean said to Sam in the 1st part of season 5 that was harsh and in season 7 the whole you could kill Amy but I did crap that happen or season 8 the whole you did not look for me crap how harsh was that. Sam does not see family the way Dean does and I do not know why someone tell me please so what he said could be harsh but it's the truth to him. its maybe because of season 4 how he was trying to save Dean and failed so many times you never know because the writer would flat up and let Sam say it but maybe he had to be harsh so he made Dean lisen this time.

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  63. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 04:24

    I think it was a really good episode.


    I am glad that Sam was up front with Dean. I know it's hard for Dean to hear, but he needed to hear it. I don't believe Sam was being intentionally cruel to Dean. I believe what he was trying to impress upon Dean is that Dean needs to start respecting Sam's wishes. When he told Dean that he would not have done the same thing, he mean that if the situation was reversed, and Dean had told him (as he had told Dean), that this death was what he wanted, he would have respected Dean's wishes and let Dean go. I don't think Sam meant that he didn't care about or love Dean anymore and would have just let him die for lack of love and care. That's NOT what he meant at all. Again, I believe this goes back to Sam trying to make Dean understand that he can't be making Sam's decisions for him because he's not a kid anymore. He has to let Sam be the adult that he is.


    I do believe that Dean saved Sam's life more for himself than for Sam, in that Dean truly doesn't want to be alone. Yes, he loves Sam, and he wants his brother to live, but I still think the core reason is that he doesn't want to be alone. I think he just needs to admit that to himself, first, before he can see it clearly and admit it to Sam or anyone else.


    This made me think back to last week. When Sam said that a lot of the problems they have had was because they are family. And it's true. Had they not been family, their emotions wouldn't have gotten them into some of the predicaments they've gotten into and some of their decisions would have been made differently, and would have been better than some of the ones that were made. It's easy to see why Sam feels the way he does, when you honestly take some time to sit back and really think about things from Sam's point of view. Yes, I adore Dean, too, but I needed to put that aside and take a trip into Sam's mind and really see where he is coming from, and I truly get it. Sam isn't cold or unfeeling. Like he said tonight, he still has a heart. He loves Dean, but he, himself, has to be allowed to be himself. Dean wasn't allowing him to do that and that is/was causing a lot of issues.


    All in all, I am not going to question the writers (other than putting freaking Snooki in the next episode *barf*). They obviously know what they are doing, or else we would not have had the 8 successful seasons of Supernatural that we have had, and just about for certain going to have at least a 10th, if not more. I'm going to keep having faith, because we've made it this far. They know what they are doing. We all know that no matter how bad the issues with the boys get, it will be worked out by the end of the season, and they will be much stronger for it. There really is no reason to get all upset over what is happening with them, now. We just need to let it play out and see how it goes.

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  64. SuePo5 February 2014 at 04:24

    Easy. Nowhere. :/

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  65. K. L. Townsend5 February 2014 at 04:25

    I don't doubt it. Sam does care for Dean. I just need them to show me a little more. It would help for the tough conversations like this.

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  66. lala25 February 2014 at 04:28

    But does Dean get it? Maybe all Dean heard was, "I wouldn't save you" or "you do more harm than good." That's not productive. It's all about the "framing" of the issues, and IMO, Sam's issues could have been framed better.

    In the beginning, he asked Dean if Dean is upset about what Sam said last week. Dean says, "Oh, you mean how you don't want to be brothers," and Sam's like, "Yeah." So, what did Dean hear? Sam doesn't want to be brothers w/him. I'm not sure what Dean is supposed to get from that or how he's supposed to take that statement. Sam didn't say, "Dean, it's not that I don't want to be your brother, but I think we have to work on how we handle deadly situations" or whatever it is Sam wants to say. That frames the comment better than leaving it hanging there.

    JMO.

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  67. lala25 February 2014 at 04:32

    When it comes time to save his brother he it will to save

    Not w/Carver running the show.

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  68. ScottA5 February 2014 at 04:37

    THERE YOU ARE!!!!!!! This season's been so empty without you and Metatron's move to Member's Only Outerwear.

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  69. kerinda5 February 2014 at 04:40

    true I do not get it too I with you there. But the we do more harm then good this is true look what happen Kevin is Dead the demons still are running around earth and now with the angels fallen have there been anything good anymore? And tell me what if Sam would have close the gates of hell would that done good or not?

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  70. ScottA5 February 2014 at 04:41

    I actually liked the ending as at least they built some drama. Couldn't really dislike the bad guy either. Can't describe why.


    And yes. Make up your minds. It's one thing to have a fundamental rift which is growing daily but toss in some mistrust and WHAMMY!

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  71. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 04:42

    I agree with you. I think Dean is hearing Sam, but he's not "listening" to Sam, so therefore, he may not be interpreting what Sam is saying, properly. Yes, I do believe Sam would try to save Dean, IF that is what Dean wanted. If Dean was clear (like Sam was, when Sam was with Death in the first episode), then Sam would respect Dean's wishes, and let Dean go. And I believe you are right also about the brother thing. Yes, Sam wants to be Dean's brother, but they do need to set some guidelines as to what is acceptable and what is not. But I still think all will be worked out and fine by the end of the season, so I'm not getting too bent outta shape...yet. I think what's happening now is preparing the boys for the strength they will need to work together as brothers for whatever the writers have in store for them next season. I have a feeling next season is gonna be a whopper and the boys will have to be one heck of a strong unit (including Cas), to fight whatever may be coming then.

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  72. lala25 February 2014 at 04:54

    The problem, as usual for me, is w/the dialogue.

    As a whole, Sam had some very harsh statements for Dean (i.e., You do more harm than good, You only saved me for yourself, You're afraid to be alone, I wouldn't save you, Yes, I don't want to be brothers), and none of those statements were qualified or given any further explanation. That was it. His dialogue and POV was limited to those harsh/cold (IMO) statements so that is how I interpreted the scene.

    And even if Sam had a larger point (he may have but I don't think that point was properly expressed through this or last week's dialogue), it most certainly got lost in the above statements. How could it not? Can Dean really hear anything beyond, "I wouldn't save you. (pause) I'm going to bed now. Bye?" If I put myself in Dean's shoes, I would only hear that my brother wouldn't try to save me if I was dying and doesn't want to be my brother anymore. That may be wrong but it is certainly human and realistic, esp. since that's all Sam said.

    If the writers had simply allowed Sam to go into some detail on what he meant by his comments, the conversation, itself, would have been more productive. If Sam woke up the next day to find a note from Dean saying he split, he shouldn't be shocked or surprised, IMO. It really makes no sense for Dean to stick around after that conversation, but we all know he's not going anywhere.

    I think the writing has, yet again, done Sam a disservice.

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  73. lala25 February 2014 at 04:59

    I guess where we disagree is on whether Sam is "saying" something. What I mean is the writers appear to be writing around the issue instead of just addressing it. The brothers have had THREE conversations, and Sam has still not clearly articulated his issue. He says he wouldn't save Dean and then heads off to bed, leaving Dean thinking . . . what . . . that his brother wouldn't choose to save his life?!?! How does this help repair their relationship since Sam feels it's broken?

    The writers needs to write better dialogue for Sam, but I guess that's never gonna happen.

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  74. Dominick Grace5 February 2014 at 05:00

    Snooki ... ay-yi-yi!

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  75. kerinda5 February 2014 at 05:10

    I do too don't get me wrong but we get what we got and we have to deal with I know its but if you do not like it then don't watch( that's what everyone said's) I know it sucks but we have like 9 more Eps too get what Sam really is trying to say here and I hope he can say more but you know the writers there going to take forever to do anything so we have too take what is giving to us that sucks but it keeps us talking right?

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  76. Peter J45 February 2014 at 05:54

    I hope not. They were both basically wimps.

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  77. Peter J45 February 2014 at 05:55

    I think that it could still be powerful, just in a more healthy way. If anything on this show is healthy.

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  78. Donna C5 February 2014 at 06:40

    If he's blunt its because he's trying to get his point out before Dean interrupts. Because Dean, I believe, knows what's going to be said and doesn't want to hear it. So he's like, "I have to shut it down before it happens".

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  79. Donna C5 February 2014 at 06:45

    Too many times in the series. Sometimes, I wonder how Sam made it through puberty. No, Dean was around then. How did he manage four years of college on his own?

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  80. Hellboy5 February 2014 at 06:46

    He did have demons watching his back.

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  81. Emily5 February 2014 at 06:46

    At this point Dean should just get Sam one of those medical alert necklaces.

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  82. Hellboy5 February 2014 at 06:48

    I don't think there was any fat shaming going on.

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  83. Donna C5 February 2014 at 06:48

    Right. I forgot they threw that little tidbit in during some past season. Was it season six? I remember so little about that season.

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  84. Donna C5 February 2014 at 06:49

    He should get him a big bubble. So nothing can hurt him. Not even germs.

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  85. Hellboy5 February 2014 at 06:54

    Season 5, his best friend in college, Brady, was possessed and killed Jess on Azazel's orders. And then Lucifer tells in "Swan Song" how everyone from grade school teacher to his prom date were demons jerking him around.

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  86. MarissaAO5 February 2014 at 07:13

    I could take or leave most of the episode, but I actually really love how honest Sam is being and how they're really dealing with what's wrong between him and Dean.

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  87. DeanWinBro5 February 2014 at 07:56

    there's NO WAY Sam doesn't love or doesn't care Dean. He's Winchester, bro! The craziest family I've ever seen. Just wait and see next episode, and we will get the answer.... maybe.

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  88. JJ THE EXPAT5 February 2014 at 08:01

    Not nearly as bad as the last few episodes but it was still a pointless filler. I'm sick and tired of the writers jerking viewers around. Can't they remember that there is a major political struggle in hell while on Earth, angels are pretty much in a fit for being expelled from heaven? Plus ... Adam. They need to bring him back already. I don't care that Sam wouldn't go out of his way to save Dean. That's been established many times before in the series, the most recent time being the season 8 premiere.

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  89. maloose5 February 2014 at 08:31

    I'd never have though I say it, but at this rate I'd rather we don't see anymore Sam POV, who knows what other heartbreaking things he may say next time! Let me have my illusion of their famous brotherly bond.

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  90. isleofskye5 February 2014 at 08:41

    Yeah. Cain and Abel seems to be the way Carv wants to go.
    One bro kiling the other.
    'What has supernatural become? ' Good question. Once it was a story about how two brothers who would live and die for each other, not any more it seems. :(

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  91. isleofskye5 February 2014 at 08:53

    Yeah, there have been harsh moments befor in the show from each brother to the other, but I never ever felt that they did not love or care for one other.
    X
    Carver has been trying to break their bond since 8.01 and last night I think he hammered the last nail in the coffin.
    Whatever Sam does now, can never repair the fact that he has told Dean there are limits as to what he would do to save him.
    I don't see how that can ever be fixed.
    For me the story ends at 7.23 when Sam gers Dean out of Purgatory and they ride off into the sunset in the Impala!

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  92. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 09:48

    Sam does love and care for Dean. We have seen how both brothers will do whatever it takes to save one another, time and again. I think some folks need to watch the whole series over again. Sam would die for Dean & vice versa, He is simply saying, IF Dean wanted and was ready to die, Sam would respect his wishes and let him go. He is not saying he doesn't give a hoot about Dean or that he doesn't love him.

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  93. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 09:51

    I agree with you. I think like all of us, I think that because Dean is so close to Sam, that he is hearing Sam and not really "listening" to Sam. If that makes sense. He's so emotionally involved, that he's maybe misinterpreting what Sam is saying to him and until he really sits down and thinks about it, it's going to continue to hurt him. He really needs to sit and put the shoe on the other foot and try to understand why Sam feels as he does and why he is saying what he is saying, instead of thinking about his own personal feelings about it.

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  94. DeanWinBro5 February 2014 at 10:05

    THAT's what I want to read on comment here

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  95. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 10:05

    Sam definitely cares. And in the beginning of the show, both of them were referring to each other as "my brother" while on the case, so neither was rejecting the other as a "brother", including Sam. Sam did indeed rush down to find Dean when Dean called for help, because he loves and cares for him. I think you have it spot on, same as I have been saying. :-) I think the issues run so deep, that this is one of those times where sometimes things have to be taken apart clear down to the core, in order to be fixed... sorta like from the ground up... remember when in Season 1 when Sam was driving John & Dean to the hospital and the truck hit them? Baby was totaled. No hope what so ever left and according to Bobby, she should have been junked and sold for scrap...but Sam insisted on keeping her. Dean rebuilt her from nothing and she came out better. When we saw her again, later...she was cherry. :-)



    I believe this is what the writers are doing with Sam & Dean's relationship.

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  96. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 10:16

    Yeah, I saw. I'm sickened by the thought of Snooki being in the next episode...ewww and barf.

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  97. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 10:19

    Tough love, I guess? Sometimes, if you know someone is going to refuse to listen to you, you have to get tough to make them listen, even if it's going to hurt, until they listen.... and he (Sam) knows how stubborn Dean can be and how easy it is for Dean to shut out what he doesn't want to deal with.

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  98. Luana Arturi5 February 2014 at 10:24

    I'm soo sick of Sam, seriously, he's had a thousend oportunities to redeem himself after not saving Dean from Purgatory and he just keeps screwing it up! Lately I wasn't liking his attitude too much but this was just it, declaring he wouldn't care enough to save Dean after all they've been through is just ungrateful.

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  99. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 10:25

    Sounded like "fish taco" to me, too! LOL

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  100. rehabber5 February 2014 at 10:35

    I enjoyed the monster of the week feel, but they have finished making SPN into a different show. Don't think it will ever again be the show I fell in love with in 2005. Now they are letting Sam really be what he has wanted all the time, divorcing himself from Dean. He had ran away when he was a kid, now he is adult and no one can force him back. This should be interesting, but I will miss my Sam.

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  101. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 10:54

    Second time I've heard someone say Sam was lying. I'm curious. What was he lying about? I didn't hear anything of a lie at all.

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  102. rehabber5 February 2014 at 11:01

    I don't think it is worse than last year, at least Sam was honest this time and not with the "ran, hit dog, met girl" bull from s8. Sam has always felt different about family and tried several times to run away from it, so I feel better about Sam this time, last year I did not like him at all.

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  103. lala25 February 2014 at 11:31

    Don't think it will ever again be the show I fell in love with in 2005.

    Neither do I, and it's really sad. I feel all those moments where Dean saved Sam or where we saw Sam attempt to save Dean are now being classified as pathetic, unhealthy, and horrible. I guess they're just supposed to not care if the other one is going to die, and Castiel happens to be standing right there. No more "Miracle! Now!" scenes for Sam I guess.

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  104. Nick5 February 2014 at 11:39

    Or he could just stop hunting.

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  105. lala25 February 2014 at 11:44

    What a HORRIBLE thing to do. The one important thing on the show, the
    brothers' bond has been broken into little pieces because Carver wants
    them to 'mature'.
    Well done Carver. You have achieved your goal. Clap clap!

    And now that you have ruined the show, I hope you are happy and fulfilled.


    Isle, I couldn't agree more w/you! I was enjoying the episode too until that conversation. That conversation ruined the entire episode for me. Heck, it's ruined the remainder of the season, the show. Clearly, Carver is morphing the brother bond into something that is normal and no longer special and unique. He has well and thoroughly broken Sam, and wants to do the same to Dean.
    It's really quite sad.

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  106. lala25 February 2014 at 11:53

    How could it be more powerful? It can't.



    What was powerful and unique about this show was the brothers' willingness to do anything to save each other. All those instances we saw made for very powerful moments in the show. Once that is gone, we'll just have two brothers traveling together, and when one is in mortal danger, the other will just go, "I guess it's his time to go." I guess the next time Sam gets his throat slashed, and Castiel is standing right there, Dean should stop Cas from healing him, right? That's a supernatural healing, and that's bad.



    Sam is most definitely dying (under Carver) when this show comes to end. After he dies, I hope Dean goes on to get a family and live a nice life w/o hunting.

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  107. isleofskye5 February 2014 at 11:56

    The whole premise of what Carver is doing is illogical though.

    On the one hand he makes Sam say that he would let his brother die if necessary and then during the ep, Sam goes all out to search and save Dean from the monster.

    I get that having each others' backs is part of the hunting together deal but at this point why are they even together?

    Why insist on making Sam hurt Dean's feeling so blatently.
    Sam has always been the one with the vocabulary to explain himself well; he could have said the same things to Dean in a gentler manner.

    They did have this same conversation in s3 about never selling their souls again for each other but it was done with more sensitivity and it was Dean who said it.Back then Sam didn't listen and tried to make a deal for Dean, so unless Sam has become Bizarro Sam, then nothing about this plot-line makes sense. Buh!
    x
    It seems that Carver wants them to hate each other.
    It makes no sense, but then the show hasn't made sense since Carver and his crappy writers have taken control of it.

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  108. lala25 February 2014 at 12:06

    I disagree. Back when Kripke - the creator of this show was at the helm - Sam was just as determined to do whatever he could to help Dean as Dean would for him. That was the theme of the show. Both brothers were willing to sacrifice themselves for each other. In the S2 finale, when Sam told Dean that he would do anything for Dean, I believed him. We saw his desperation in MS and IKWYDLS. In S6, Sam's inner spirit takes on Hell/Soulless memories b/c of an unwillingness to leave his brother out there. That was under Sera. In S7, Dean straight up disappears, and Sam looks for him until he finds him.

    Carver enters the picture in the S7 finale, and suddenly, Sam can't be bothered to search for Dean. We're not even talking about making a deal or doing anything extraordinary. He doesn't even investigate the situation to see what happened. He just moves on w/his life. We have some huge emotional conversation in Sacrifice about how Sam feels he's let Dean down, causing Dean to turn to other people but now, he's all like, "we don't need to be brothers." Huh? I understand Sam is hurt and feels betrayed, but NONE of his conversations is ever well-written, IMO.

    I'm at the point where I feel Dean needs to write him off and just do his own thing. I have no idea why Sam is even w/Dean at this point, and I have no idea why Dean would stick around after last night's conversation.

    Carver has well, and truly, broken the brotherly bond for me. There's nothing there anymore, and I have no interest in seeing them reconcile.

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  109. lala25 February 2014 at 12:09

    But if this were to play out realistically, I honestly don't think Dean would stick around to ever "learn" whatever Sam wants him to learn.

    I'd rather see them apart than together if this is what "together" is going to be.

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  110. lala25 February 2014 at 12:12

    I like your ending.

    He really has destroyed their relationship beyond repair. There is nothing there anymore. It's really sad. Even though I felt they acted more like hunters traveling together than brothers in S7, I never felt the bond was broken; it just wasn't being utilized and shown. Now, I honestly have zero desire to see them together. I wish they'd split up again. I don't know why Sam is hunting. I don't why know he's there w/Dean now.

    What's the point of this show now?

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  111. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 12:15

    If this is what together is going to be permanently, then yes, I'd rather see them apart, myself, because I'd rather see them happy then see either of them miserable. But I'm hanging on to faith in the writers.

    I remember watching the convention videos when this season was discussed. This season is all about their relationship. Things will explode and come to a head, but it will get better and they (the boys) will be better for it by the end of season. They (the writers) do know what they are doing, even if we can't understand it, now. We will by the end of the season. Right now, we are Dean...saying, "WTF, Sam??" But the fog will clear. We just have to be patient. :-)

    Have faith. They brought us 8 great seasons. We're into 9 and we know we are getting at least 1 more, possibly more than that. If the writers sucked, we wouldn't have this much. The show would never have lasted this long.

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  112. lala25 February 2014 at 12:17

    Under Carver, Sam was definitely NOT lying.

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  113. lala25 February 2014 at 12:26

    But what is better under Carver?

    I guess it all depends on if you thought there was something fundamentally wrong w/the brothers' relationship and the way they interact w/each other. I did not. All this talk about their relationship being broken has never meant much to me b/c I did not see their relationship as broken. They were fine. In fact, after THREE years of angst and conflict (4-6), I was happy to finally see them okay w/each other in S7. All that was blown to pieces by 8x01.

    Now, I do think their relationship is broken and not in a good way. I don't think the "repairing" of their relationship under this regime will create a brother relationship preferable to the one Kripke created. Does that make sense?

    In short, I liked Kripke's version of these boys and their relationship. I enjoyed that "unhealthy, codependent" bond, so I am not excited by Carver's destruction of everything I enjoyed about the show.

    I hope that helps explain my POV a bit. I dislike everything about Carver's run so far and expect to dislike his changes to the brotherly bond.

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  114. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 12:32

    I totally understand your POV. I, also, much preferred Kripke's version of the boys over Carver's, honestly. But we no longer have Kripke on it, so we kinda have to take what we get at this point and hope for the best. That's all I'm doing. I may not particularly like the way Carver is going about things with every detail of the writing, but I have to hold on to the hope that we get our brothers back with the vision of the bond they had the way Kripke meant it to be. (They are, after all, Kripke's creation.) Otherwise, for me, the series would have been 8 years of my life almost spent watching for nothing...other than it showed me that there can be two siblings with that kind of bond, even if it doesn't last forever.

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  115. lala25 February 2014 at 12:33

    You and I are definitely on the same page.



    I have no idea why Sam is with Dean right now? If he hates hunting so much and hates the things Dean would do for him, why doesn't he just go off somewhere and start a life for himself? And why is Dean sticking around for that matter? Dean should leave.



    I also agree that the dialogue Sam got was plain insensitive and cold. It was completely unnecessary. Plus, I still maintain Sam was not clear on what his problem is. He says they shouldn't be brothers, and that's it, but Dean is supposed to understand that he really means they shouldn't use supernatural means (does that include Cas's quick healings) to save each other. How? How is Dean supposed to get that from, "We shouldn't be brothers?" As you said, at one time, he was articulate and studying to be a lawyer, so why can't he express himself better? The writers suck at giving him dialogue, IMO.



    I completely agree w/your last line. Nothing about Carver's version of Supernatural has made any sense to me.

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  116. tvmonkey5 February 2014 at 12:37

    I'm assuming you think Sam is lying that he wouldnt have dont the same to Dean? I dont think it was a lie I think Sam would save Dean but just not at all cost. He pretty much summerd it up when he said this "I was ready to die, I was ready. I should have died. But you, you didn’t want to be alone. That’s what this boils down to, you can’t stand the thought of being alone. I’ll give you this much, you are certainly willing do the sacrifice, as long as you’re not the one being hurt". Sam would save Dean if it only meant Sam was sacrificing Sam, that Sam was the only one hurt, where as Dean would sacrifice everyone else and wouldnt think that someone else getting hurt in the process was too big a price to pay. Also is Dean's reasoning for saving Sam at all cost the right reason? If he's doing it just because he doesnt want to be alone then no it isnt the right reason.
    Its obvious Sam will have to save Dean at the end of the season, its questionable whether the writers want Sam to to do that at all cost to bring him in line with Dean's way of thinking so that Dan is right or if they will have Sam take a different route and only Save Dean if it means no one else is hurt other than Sam himself?

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  117. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 12:45

    I see and agree with your point. Since we see Dean heading down a dark road with that whole Mark of Cain thing, we know Sam is going to have to save him. We've already been set up for that finale. I can't wait to see how the rest of the season plays out, and how each one of the brothers' views are on everything by the end of the season, and just how they will feel about it all and what they will say to one another in Episode 1 of Season 10. My curiosity is definitely peaked.

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  118. lala25 February 2014 at 12:47

    Oh, I understand. This is Carver's show now, but I don't have to like it. And I really don't.

    Supernatural used to be my favorite show, and I've been sticking around to see how it ends but I don't know if I will be able to make. My interest in the show has reached an all-time low, esp. after last night's devastating conversation. I would love to think Carver would restore the boys to way Kripke had them, but he seems intent on destroying that creation.

    But I understand your need to be optimistic. I wish I shared your optimism, and I hope it turns out like you want. For me, I'm happy there's a break in the episodes right now.

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  119. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 12:51

    Yeah, I think we can all use some down time after all that's going on, right now, with them. It's been really emotional and depressing.

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  120. gogy25 February 2014 at 12:58

    I'm agree with you opinion, you are very right

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  121. tvmonkey5 February 2014 at 12:59

    why do people keep bringing up Lucifer and Michael, where has the show remotely indicated that is the direction they are headed?

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  122. tvmonkey5 February 2014 at 13:00

    try taking off your wooby Dean blinders that might help

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  123. tvmonkey5 February 2014 at 13:04

    did you consider that these weekly little chats are building up to that?

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  124. lala25 February 2014 at 13:05

    Yeah . . . with no end in sight.

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  125. tvmonkey5 February 2014 at 13:09

    I though Sam explained himself just fine, I've seen Dean he a lot harsher and a lot colder with a lot less actual explanation than this.
    Dean: About what you said the other day.
    Sam: I thought it didn’t bother you.
    Dean: You know Sam, I saved your hide back there. I saved your hide at that church…in the hospital. I may not think things all the way through but when I do, it’s because it’s the right thing. I’d do it again.
    Sam: And that is the problem. You think you’re my savior, my brother, the hero. You swoop in and even when you mess up you think what you’re doing is worth it because you’ve convinced yourself you’re doing more good than bad…but you’re not. Kevin’s dead, Crowley’s in the wind, we’re no closer to beating this angel thing, please tell me, what is the upside to me being alive?
    Dean: Are you kidding me? You and me, fighting the good fight together.
    Sam (scoffs): Just once be honest with me, you didn’t save me for me. You did it for you.
    Dean: What are you talking about?
    Sam: I was ready to die, I was ready. I should have died. But you, you didn’t want to be alone. That’s what this boils down to, you can’t stand the thought of being alone. I’ll give you this much, you are certainly willing do the sacrifice, as long as you’re not the one being hurt.
    Dean: Alright, you want to be honest, if the situation was reversed, and I was dying, you’d do the same thing.
    Sam (long pause): No Dean, I wouldn’t. Same circumstances, I wouldn’t. (Gets up). I’m heading to bed.

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  126. tvmonkey5 February 2014 at 13:15

    actions speak louder than words, isnt that the Dean fans favourite line? Sam doesnt have to say he cares its clear in the fact that despite what has happened he's still there he's still hunting with Dean, he was concerned for Dean in the episode and he will continue to have Dean's back in up coming episodes and he will save Dean at the end of the season. There will be Dean's proof that Sam loves him. Sam will do anything for Dean bit he wont go against Dean's wishes for himself and he wont let others get hurt to save him. He wouldnt do what Dean did to him but that doesn mean under different circumstances Sam wouldnt save Dean.

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  127. lala25 February 2014 at 13:15

    Maybe, but I don't care for it. I'm finding these weekly chats annoying and pointless. If they want to save Sam's POV for the finale, then just do that. Don't have him say anything (not like that would be a challenge for this show) until the finale.


    But having him speak in bits and pieces w/o ever fully fleshing out his thoughts is only leading to confusion for both Dean and the audience, IMO. Sam says he doesn't want to be brothers w/Dean anymore, and I assume he doesn't mean that literally, but when given an opportunity (or two) to explain what he means, he says nothing. So, I'm not sure why Dean is expected to automatically understand what Sam means. The first time he said, Dean questioned him, and Sam didn't clarify. Who wouldn't be confused?



    The writers are skirting around the issue, and it's silly at this point.



    I find the writers' tendency to not flesh out Sam's POV disrespectful to his character and to the way his character is perceived. No care or thought is put into Sam's dialogue, IMO, and that has become a huge problem. Sam came off very insensitive, and since he was the wronged party, it shouldn't have been that way.

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  128. tvmonkey5 February 2014 at 13:16

    honestly he wasnt all that cold or harsh, it might seem like it to people who didnt agree with what he was saying but then my guess those are the same people who dont think the relatioship needs to change.

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  129. lala25 February 2014 at 13:20

    I like both brothers. Don't favor one over the other.

    I have no issue w/anything you're saying. If that's Sam's point, that's fine. I'm saying that - for me - the dialogue failed. For me, Sam came off very insensitive and cold. In my opinion, he still hasn't told Dean what the problem is, and that is its own problem.

    If the scene worked for you, that's great. It didn't work for me, and that's primarily b/c of the writing.

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  130. lala25 February 2014 at 13:24

    Again, if the dialogue worked for you, that's great. It just didn't work for me. I didn't like it, and I think it came off quite cold.

    Plus, any point I think Sam was trying to make got lost in the harshness of his words. I doubt Dean heard anything beyond "you do more harm than good," "I wouldn't save" and the earlier "we're not brothers." And that makes complete sense to me given the conversations they've had and the limited way in which Sam continues to express himself thanks to the writers.

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  131. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 13:31

    I think it has to change from what it is now, certainly, or they just might wind up hating one another. I think Sam could have been even colder, but I think he held back from that. He said what he had to say, without digging in any deeper, knowing Dean was already hurting. Like Sam said, he still has a heart. I believe that.

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  132. tvmonkey5 February 2014 at 13:33

    Sam/Jared are doing the hard graft in this storyline, there is no way they could have achieved it without him being the one to take the heat because there is no way they would throw their precious Dean/Jensen under the proverbial bus. As long as they can make Dean look sympathetic even when he was the one in the wrong the writers will retty much do whatever they want and not care how Sam comes across.
    For the recoed I agree with Sam completely and I find his plight more symapthetic than I do Dean's right now.

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  133. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 13:38

    Every now and then people mention bringing Adam back, too, but if that happens can you imagine what an f'd up mess that would be? Sam was there longer than Dean and look how badly that turned out. Bringing Adam back would be a disaster at this point, I think. If people thought Soulless Sam was bad, just imagine what Adam would be like. *shudders* (and personally, I loved Soulless Sam...lol... but I'm weird, that way)

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  134. tvmonkey5 February 2014 at 13:39

    you last bad point, I think thats coming and not something they could just lump in the episode. They want it to play out a little longer (end of the season probably) with things getting better a little bit at a time rather than over and done in one episode.
    Sam doesnt hate Dean it was in no way implied or inferred just as I dont think Dean has hated Sam every time he's come across as harsh or a jerk to Sam.

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  135. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 13:44

    I agree. Neither brother has EVER hated the other. Ever. They've fought. They have not agreed. But hated? NEVER. They've both gone above and beyond for the other. Maybe Sam was wrong in not looking for Dean when Dean was in Purgatory, and I can understand why Dean was upset, but he still NEVER hated Sam for it, and Sam NEVER hated Dean, even while Dean still treated Sam like a kid and took away Sam's choices, and always felt Sam couldn't ever do the right thing, no matter how hard Sam tried.

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  136. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 13:46

    Agreed. Completely.

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  137. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 13:58

    I just thought of something. A saying came to mind. In Season 5, we see Sam jumping into the pit. "The good of the many outweighs the good of the one." Then in Season 8, we see Dean talking to Sam. Suddenly, I see that saying altered. "The good of the one outweighs the good of the many." To me, that kind of verifies what Sam said when he told Dean that Dean will do what he feels is right, so long as Dean himself isn't hurt. Does that make sense? Just a passing thought that I had. I dunno. The stuff that runs through my head sometimes.

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  138. lala25 February 2014 at 14:21

    You may not believe me, but I actually agree w/your last sentence. I understand exactly why Sam is angry w/Dean, and I think he should have the sympathy in this story but the writing failed him as usual in that arena. Instead of letting him explain his position, the writers give him cold/harsh dialogue.

    For instance, instead of having Sam say Dean does more harm than good, why not have him say, "Dean, remember Doc Holiday? Remember how I wanted to turn you into a monster to save your life? And you didn't that want. You told me you didn't want to be saved like that. Well, you were right then. I was wrong. Just like you have limits, I have limits to how I want to be saved too. Turning you into a monster wouldn't have led to anything good just like having me possessed by Gadreel led to Kevin's death. We have to stop and think about the consequences before we act."

    To me, the same point is made, but it's put into context and given some depth. And it actually leads to a conversation. But that's JMO. You may disagree.

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  139. AntiKarel5 February 2014 at 14:37

    I don't think that Dean is thinking about himself and how he doesn't want to be left alone when he's saving Sam. He's willing to sacrifice himself for others but not his family, not his little brother. Now, I don't know what Carver actual POV of the brothers' relationship is, but if what I'm reading here bear any truth, then it is just sad. Their bond is what drives this show,the sic undercurrent theme. For me their urge to always save each other or bring each other back from the dead has always felt quite realistic to say the truth. I would do anything to save my family and wish there was actually a way in reality to bring them back to life if anything were to happen to them. I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way so it suddens me to know that Carver took over a show with that notion in mind to deem it unnatural and destroy it.

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  140. rehabber5 February 2014 at 14:48

    I am in agreement, if you read all my posts, I said that as far as I was concerned this is a NEW SPN series and I like this honest Sam better than the one in s8. I miss the Sam from the first seasons, but Carver has ruined that Sam and I don't think we will ever see the brotherly bond again.

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  141. rehabber5 February 2014 at 14:58

    I liked Soulless Sam also, enjoyed watching Jared as that character, Adam I never cared for.

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  142. sdwhiskey5 February 2014 at 15:15

    Sam no longer has a brother, remember? He was "just being honest."

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  143. Nicolás Caballero Mühlbach5 February 2014 at 15:39

    Yep, one of the thing that I don't like of the show is the "the good monster is the dead monster" thing, I just don't understand why Dean is still such a nazi with the good ones after almost ten years of running, and the past week Dean let alive Garth (and family) who is werewolf, why? Because he is a friend? Dean clears your mind, please.

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  144. sdwhiskey5 February 2014 at 16:07

    Sam: "You think you're my savior, my brother the hero. You swoop in and even when you mess up you think that what you're doing is worth it because you've convinced yourself you're doing more good than bad. But you're not."

    Sam: "I'll give you this much. You are certainly willing to do the sacrifice. As long as you're not the one being hurt."



    So according to Sam, Dean does more harm than good (way to reinforce Dean's fear of being poison to his loved ones, Sam...) and Dean is only willing to save lives as long as he knows he won't be hurt? Sam doesn't think Dean going to hell didn't hurt him? And Dean did let Sam make his own choice to take on Lucifer and jump into the pit, but Sam thinks that didn't hurt Dean either? Wow. WOW.

    I guess Dean needs to just accept that Sam feels this way about him and move on. Sam believes that Dean is just being needy and selfish so okay, Sam should go find another partner who is not willing to sacrifice anything to save/protect him, and that should make him happy. Problem solved.

    And Dean needs to acknowledge his horribly selfish mistakes (every time he protects or saves Sam from death), and go off on his own again. That way Sam will never have to worry about Dean doing something selfish to save him ever again.

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  145. lala25 February 2014 at 16:19

    I don't know. I find much of Carver's Sam to be OOC, but that's just me.


    I do disagree that Sam was not being honest last year. Though I though the story was lame as heck, the story was that Sam thought Dean was dead. He said that from the beginning and never wavered from that tale.

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  146. Kaye2375 February 2014 at 16:38

    'O'n the one hand he makes Sam say that he would let his brother die if necessary and then during the ep, Sam goes all out to search and save Dean from the monster.''


    There's no opposite in that, Sam still care and love his brother and he ran when his brother was in danger, but if Dean was already dead when he arrived, he wouldn't make deals or thing like that to save him knowing it will only resolve in more crap like it always did.


    You said it yourself, one time they had this cat it was so nice and warm, they didn't listen and did it again. This approch doesn't work

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  147. Misty Pebworth5 February 2014 at 16:47

    Okay, I can understand this from Dean's pov, but when is the last time Sam did something to save his brother from something awful? He didn't even try for purgatory.. The last time I remember him trying to save dean was the trial, and that's no where near the levels dean's gone to. My point being, Sam doesn't see himself as a martyr, and he never seems to do something because they're 'brothers'. So he sees Dean as the problem, because Dean jumps in the fire every single time to save him. This angers him.

    But none of what you said is what Sam's said the past few episodes where he's stated, bluntly, we can't be brothers, we're not family. We can be hunters, strictly business. Which makes me wonder why Sam even wants to hunt with Dean since he's said he doesn't trust him. Hunters don't work with those they can't trust, and Sam's fully capable of successfully hunting by himself. (Even if the writers seem to think Sam's always got to be rescued from mows).

    It really does feel to me like carver's cramming down our throats the fact that Sam never wanted to be in this business, and keeps getting thrown back in and forced to because there'd be no show and because fans insist on then being together just about every episode.

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  148. Peter J45 February 2014 at 17:13

    Sam and Dean have said and done a lot worse to each other than what Sam said last night.

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  149. Peter J45 February 2014 at 17:14

    He's there because he still cares about Dean, just not in the way that would lead him to kill himself, or others.

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  150. Peter J45 February 2014 at 17:17

    Mystery Spot was also about Sam being forced to learn to let go. Sam tried to bring Dean back after he died, but when it didn't happen, he moved on.


    Sera's version of it was messy - Dean was presented as a burden to Sam, and only of value if he lived for Sam.

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  151. Peter J45 February 2014 at 17:18

    I don't think he hates Dean either. Not at all. I am just saying that I think they need to make this more clear to offset the backlash we're seeing right now.

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  152. Peter J45 February 2014 at 17:18

    I felt like there was some early on.

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  153. sharonally5 February 2014 at 17:20

    How has he screwed up lately? what the hell do you think Dean has done lately then ? hate what Sam said but do not make out this has all been on him and Dean has just sat there .


    He was right Dean did get Gadreel to possesshim for himself not Sam , just because Sam's pov is non-existent does not make that any less true.

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  154. isleofskye5 February 2014 at 17:30

    I just meant that Sam looks upset when he is searching for Dean and it contrasts with his words at the end of the episode.
    He seems much colder and less caring when he tells Dean he wouldn't have saved him if it had been the other way round.
    This makes Sam hard to understand for the viewers.
    Why is he even with Dean if this is how he feels?

    If he blames Dean for keeping him alive, then what show are we watching. It's not SPN any more.
    X
    Then let's be honest, neither Sam nor Dean will die until the show ends so why make everyone sad with this continual brother angst.

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  155. isleofskye5 February 2014 at 17:37

    No, they haven't.
    Sam said he would not have saved his brother if Dean was the one who was dying.
    Sam has ALWAYS tried to save his brother in the past, just as Dean has always tried to save Sam.
    x
    This story of Sam not caring for Dean has only begun since Carver took over.
    He must really hate the brothers and their bond.

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  156. lily5 February 2014 at 18:00

    I think the scariest part is that they are writing it as if Sam really wasn't lying. I hate it, they need to stop ruining brothers relationship and especially stop making Sam care so much less for Dean. This tendency wasn't present in earlier seasons, and i am sick of Sam offhandedly saying something mean and walking away leaving Dean just standing there with pained face.

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  157. Peter J45 February 2014 at 18:22

    Dean is in such a dark place now he can't be ambiguous. And in this case, it was a little tough to be ambiguous, because the woman may have been innocent, but she was still preying on unknowing people, and her brother was taking advantage of the situation to kill.

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  158. Peter J45 February 2014 at 18:24

    Sam nearly beat Dean to death. And he then blamed all of this on Dean. He said it was Dean's fault that he beat him bloody, that he lied, that he trusted Ruby. Everything.


    Last night, Sam said he would not make deals to save Dean. To me, that's not as bad as what he did in seasons 4 and 5.

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  159. Peter J45 February 2014 at 18:25

    Sam never wanted to be in a toxic, ugly relationship. He wants to be with Dean. Just not to the point where they have no value as people.

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  160. Peter J45 February 2014 at 18:27

    Adam coming back tends to mean people want him to take revenge (he should take revenge on the angels, not Sam and Dean), or because how dare the Winchesters forget family (when Adam explicitly said they were not his family). I don't really need to see him again.

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  161. rehabber5 February 2014 at 18:28

    I agree Carver's Sam is totally different, which is why I am calling it a NEW series. This is not the same Sam of the first 7 years, if I try and put that Sam into Carver's seasons it just makes me angry. This is nothing like my Sam. lol

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  162. jensenfan19785 February 2014 at 18:28

    I found the episode to be a lot better than expected. I was grateful for it. The acting was superb.

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  163. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 18:48

    I thought it was pretty clear that Dean did it for himself, as Sam said... when Dean said, "there ain't no me, if there ain't no you". Just my opinion, though.

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  164. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 18:54

    I agree with you. I think his character is done.

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  165. Tina Washere5 February 2014 at 18:55

    I loved that Jared even liked playing that role and hopes he gets to do it again. I'd love to see him go dark at least once more. He did an amazing job. :-)

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  166. Luana Arturi5 February 2014 at 19:41

    Even if that's what he ment it isn't true either, it was true when they didn't shut hell's doors just to let Sam live; but this time, even if the consequences were terrible, they probably wouldn't compare to the lives Sam wouldn't be there to help save, of course it's just an assumption but Dean wouldn't be a the top of his game either if Sam died.

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  167. Luana Arturi5 February 2014 at 19:50

    It's been a long time since I saw it so I can't tell you exactly what they were fighting about, but there was this one time when Sam stepped up and I was really happy for him, I'm not always on Dean's side, but this time I don't think it's the one to not back down, I get that he's mad and he has a right to be, but I think he over-stepped by saying they weren't brothers anymore, after all Dean has done to protect him.
    I also think that Dean protecting Sam can be selfish but it is also in the best interest of every person that needs saving from the Supernatural. (Usually that's my opinion, I need to make an exception for the time Dean stopped Sam from shutting the gates of Hell, that wasn't helpful at all)

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  168. lala25 February 2014 at 20:22

    It didn't really hurt me so no worries :-)


    But my interest in the show has seriously declined, and since Carver is intent on destroying their relationship, there is little for me to enjoy at this point.

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  169. SuePo5 February 2014 at 20:25

    How did you get two downvotes for that? Im kinda impressed. :) I'm sorry i abandoned you, my friend. But the change in the wardrobe budget just pushed me over the edge. ;) i miss your fashion sense.

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  170. lala25 February 2014 at 20:30

    I was really upset when Sam choked Dean, and Bobby told Dean to quit "crying" about it. I thought Bobby was very dismissive of Dean's genuine feelings. And I can't say I enjoyed the way Kripke had them reconcile but they did move past that rocky point. I was fine w/the brothers in Seasons 6-7. IMO, everything was de-railed in S8.

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  171. lala25 February 2014 at 20:31

    I think he does too, but that's not how he framed it, and that's not how I think Dean heard it. That's why I'm saying it's yet another writing failure though you may disagree.

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  172. Nicolás Caballero Mühlbach5 February 2014 at 20:36

    How should feed then? She is still an inoffensive supernatural creature in world where the hunters simply kill you because you are not a human being. She didn't know the killings made by her brother. Maybe Dean is passing through dark times, but that's not negate the fact that he has been a nazi.

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  173. lala25 February 2014 at 20:45

    I guess the trying and failing didn't bother me b/c of the effort that went into it showed the depth of their love/feeling for each other.

    On another boards, someone said it very well. The brothers' relationship has co-dependent elements but their relationship was never, in my mind, defined by co-dependency. I thought that made them unique and added an interesting aspect to their relationship. But Carver has decided to state a position about the relationship, and he has deemed it as unhealthy, poisonous, and bad. That's what I don't like.

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  174. lala25 February 2014 at 20:54

    Understood. I agree.

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  175. Lise5 February 2014 at 21:41

    Calm Down! :D

    I suspect that this situation will change. Animation!

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  176. Shannon5 February 2014 at 22:38

    Lol i hope they kill her.

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  177. Caz745 February 2014 at 22:55

    Then dont watch it. I dont mean to sound harsh but you clearly dont like the show anymore. Also i think the conversation was great at the end. They are obviously leading up to them both coming to a realisation of where the other one is coming from and the rebonding of them as brothers but without the codependency.

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  178. lala25 February 2014 at 23:14

    Don't tell me what to do. If you don't like my comments, don't read them. Problem solved.

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  179. Caz746 February 2014 at 00:10

    sorry but arent i allowed to reply to you! All i said was dont watch. You have said yourself you dont think youll make it to the end! IMO the end conversation was great.

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  180. lala26 February 2014 at 00:19

    You can certainly reply to me if you choose, but telling me to not watch b/c you don't like my opinion does not lend itself to any productive conversation.



    It's cool if you liked the end conversation. I didn't. That's fine, right?

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  181. Tina Washere6 February 2014 at 00:45

    Either that or I hope she's in the first scene... :-) then she gets whacked anyway....lol

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  182. Shannon6 February 2014 at 00:56

    lmao!!! The first death scenes are the best, so i'll go with you on that!

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  183. lala26 February 2014 at 02:18

    Hmm . . . I don't get your Sera reference. I didn't see Dean as a burden on Sam during S6.

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  184. ScottA6 February 2014 at 05:40

    I'm the king of downvotes. Going to change my picture so I can get some sympathy upvotes. And I'm now wearing a tee shirt WITH a pocket when I go out.

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  185. ScottA6 February 2014 at 05:54

    I liked the ending conversation if only because it lent some much needed drama and emotion to an otherwise mundane episode.


    And differing opinions are what make for good discussion.

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  186. ScottA6 February 2014 at 05:56

    I think the writing has gotten a little better this year. Haven't had an episode I hated yet.

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  187. rehabber6 February 2014 at 12:02

    Yeah, add me to this group also. In fact the only way I am staying is counting Craver's SPN as a different show and not worrying about the 7 mostly great years that have gone before.

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  188. rehabber6 February 2014 at 12:16

    lol, after the mess of last year, it did not take much to be better and I agree, there have only been a couple that I did not care for, have not hated any.

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  189. Patrick Maloney8 February 2014 at 04:31

    Great, especially for a monster of the week that genuinely had me surprised throughout the episode

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