For a while, the show’s solution to dealing with this ugly situation was to pretend it never existed. When Sam returned from Hell in season 6, there was no mention of whether Sam still felt any effects from the demon blood. This lasted for so long that many fans began to assume that the demon blood had been completely burnt out his system in Hell, or that it was no longer a factor since Lucifer was neatly tucked away in his cage.
That was until The Great Escapist. While the episode in part focused on Sam’s feelings of low self-worth, tied to the blood, it also established that Sam does still feel the presence of the blood – enough so that he felt a difference when the trials started purifying him.
Now we’re at a place where Sam has been almost completely cleaned of the blood and his insides have turned to mush. He’s being supported by an outside source – an angel’s grace – but it’s looking like an angel grace may be the wrong medicine to permanently treat the underlying cause and can only temporarily address the symptoms. While there’s been little examination on the part of the show into why Sam’s body started to fall apart with the trials, there’s an obvious explanation – the demon blood is part of who Sam is and has been since he was six months old, and that he’s not Sam without it.
Blood & Family
What do we know about what Sam feels about this blood? Mostly we know that Sam never felt normal. He instinctively sensed its presence since he was very young, and this made him feel unworthy. When Sam was hallucinating under withdrawal in season 4, the Mary part of Sam’s subconscious insisted that he had “evil” inside of him. Most of all, the presence of the blood made Sam feel that that he wasn’t quite human – he wasn’t like his father and Dean who lived to hunt monsters. Instead, Sam felt he was part monster.From this, several questions remain. Among them is the question, is the blood really “evil,” or is this all Sam’s perception? Look at the conditions in which Sam had grown up. His mother had been killed by a demon, and he was too young to have ever known her. His father had become obsessed with hatred toward demons and monsters, and the older brother Sam idolized followed suit – to the point where any life other than one spent killing monsters was considered unworthy in their family. Meanwhile Sam had always felt an instinctive tie to the demon that killed his mother and was the source of hatred in his family. Sam too may have hated the demon, but the demon’s blood ran through his own veins.
Sam’s biggest fear was that he would turn into one of the monsters his family had hunted and hated, and that his family would eventually kill him as well. This fear became reality when he learned that his father had told Dean that Dean might have to kill Sam. In season 4, when Sam had stopped resisting the demon-blood side of himself and was at a crossroads as to which path to chose, the trigger that sent him to Ruby’s side was hearing Dean call him a monster. That was the one thing Sam couldn’t bear – that the person he loved and respected most thought he was a monster. This was at a time when Sam had started turning into a type of vampire – a creature who was drinking blood of demon-possessed people.
Which brings us to season 8. Dean, who had always joined their father in hating monsters, had now brought back a vampire from Purgatory as a new brother and had told Sam that unlike Sam, Benny had never let him down. If Sam’s ultimate betrayal to Dean was Sam choosing a demon (like the one who had killed their mother) over Dean, Dean’s ultimate betrayal to Sam would be Dean choosing a monster (coincidently the same type that Sam had resembled when he was drinking demon blood) over Sam, after Dean had refused to accept Sam’s demon-blood side. To add insult to injury, Dean had killed Sam’s friend Amy after Sam had confided to Dean that he considered Amy like himself.
Control Issues
Another trigger for Sam has been a feeling of a lack of control. What happened to a Sam as an infant resembled child rape. Something had been done to his body against his will that made him feel dirty and unworthy. He responded with an obsessive resolve to carve a way out of the hunting life and his family situation by applying extreme discipline to get grades that were good enough to win him a scholarship to Stanford. This sense of control over his life was again washed away when Jess was killed, Sam was swept up into YED’s plans, and Dean was killed in season 3. Ruby played on Sam’s emotional needs to lead him toward a path that would get him addicted to power, in the form of wielding the demon blood.Sam finally regained some of that control in a healthy way by besting Lucifer in season 5, but we’re now back in a situation in which Sam has had a string of incidents happen to him over which Sam has had very little control. First there was his soullessness and the things that Sam was left to feel guilty over when he regained his memories. Then there was the Lucifer hallucinations which implied rape conditions in Hell. Sam tried to be proactive in season 8 with the trials to close the gates of Hell, but in the end accomplished nothing other than to unwittingly make himself an angel vessel, to keep alive a body that Dean refuses to let die. To top it off, Sam will soon learn that Dean tricked him into consenting to the angel, which is sure to strain the relationship that may be the one thing that has been holding Sam back from accepting the demon blood.
What Now?
To move forward, something needs to change in the story so that Sam becomes an active participant again in what is supposed to be Sam and Dean’s story. Sam’s story has almost become a joke in that every other character seems to have more control over Sam than Sam has. Sam needs to regain some agency over his own life. So the question remains – is demon blood the answer?This goes back to another question – is the demon blood really evil, or was the source of the problem all along the psychological pressure from an unhealthy situation of Sam’s family rejecting a fundamental part of who Sam is? Is Sam’s answer as simple as learning to accept himself? I’d love to hear your thoughts below.
Only if Sam doesn't go crazy for it, Dean get mad over it, and if it could heal Sam that I would want it to play a part in the show again.
ReplyDeleteBut where would the fun in that be? Just kidding. Thanks for the comment.
ReplyDeletelol I just get tired of the repetitive arguments over the demon blood between Sam and Dean.
ReplyDeleteIt would be nice it Dean could accept Sam for who he is and Sam to accept himself, too.
Chris684, I think this will make for a good discussion. A lot of good points you made regarding different issues and characters.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if the demon blood is the blood of a demon, or is it really the blood of the possessed person but is tainted or diseased by the demon?
I have loved the meaty rolls that Jared has played, Sam soulless, addicted to blood, Lucifer in his head, hallucinations, and my favorite, putting all the pieces of himself back together, awesome acting. Not always a fan of Sam in these stories, but loved watching Jared. For me Emmy worthy acting.
ReplyDeleteAnother question - is power (as in the demon-blood powers) good or evil, or is it just power, and it's ultimately it's what you do with it that matters? Sam never actually acted evil in season 4. In fact, he used the powers to save victims and kill Lilith, which believed would stop the Apocalypse. It was really just his perception of it, and the knowledge of the source of the power, that tainted it for both he and Dean.
ReplyDeleteI think Jared has done a great job with all of these, but I'd love to see more exploration of just Sam and the human emotions behind all of this. I think with so much focus on the physical side of whatever is going on with Sam, we sometimes lose touch with who the character is, and there needs to be balance for a storyline to really hit you hard.
ReplyDeleteI liked the demon blood story and the fact that one brother, in this case, Sam was tainted ,yet the other brother loved him enough to want to save him regardless.
ReplyDeleteThe demon blood is at the basis of the entire story of Supernatural and should be addressed and not ignored.
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In season four it was seen as evil, but as we have come to understand there is a very fine line between good and evil. the angels ( good) are every bit as evil as the demons, so is it fair to consider Sam's demon blood evil.
After all Sam is inherently good, proof of that is also seen by the fact he has never been stopped by demon traps or holy water, so how much importance can the blood have ? I'm not going to say that it's actually part of who he is because he wasn't born with it but it was injected into him.in a second moment.
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In any case I'm fed up with Sam getting blamed all the time for his actions, and being used by everything and evertone as a plot device; held up as the evil brother when he has always been the empathic and ready to forgive of the two.
I can't understand why the writers can't do more with Sam than to side-line him as they do. It's such a shame for he is a fascinating charater with such a lot still to give. This also affects Dean too, as his story-lines are weaker when Sam is kept away from him.
Weird. I wrote a comment and it seems to have disappeared.
ReplyDeleteI'll try again. :)
ReplyDeletex
I really liked the demon blood story and the fact that one brother in this case Sam was tainted, yet the other brother loved him enough to want to save him regardless.
Sam wasn't born with the blood. It was injected into him, so i wouldn't say it was intrinsically part of his original nature.
However even if in S4 it was considered evil, we have come to see that good (angels) isn't always good just as evil isn't always evil.
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Sam has passed through devil's traps and holy water without harm and has Always been the more gentle, empathic and forgiving of the two. Strange characteristics for someone supposedly evil.
When Death brought his soul out from the Cage it wasn't black but shining white. The demon-blood could simply have made him more powerful. Did ruby not say he hadn't needed her blood at all; that he was like Dumbo, needing a feather to fly..
I think the demon blood story-line could still have a lot of potential, 'cos let's be honest, the writers have taken everything away from Sam and given him nothing in exchange. he is now merely a plot device for everyone else on the show and it's such a waste of a fascinating character.
I'm going to need to think this over but can I just say this is an excellent and thought provoking piece of writing.
ReplyDeleteI always thought Ruby's 'Dumbo' line implied that she had used the demon blood as a way of controlling Sam physically, mentally and emotionally.
ReplyDeleteSam's powers have never actually been used for anything evil that I can remember, Sam has never done anything evil with the exception of drinking the nurse at the end of season 4 which is no different to torturing a demon (or angel) while that demon happens to be in a live human vessel. So an evil act is may be but it just joins several other similar acts of evil that Sam did not carry out. Even then Sam felt the need to repent for the act and I'm pretty sure evil people do not ask for forgiveness, or repent or even feel bad about what they did.
Your lat paragraph couldn't be anymore true,
Yes Jared has been brilliant but it seems unfair that Sam be the only character on the show to be treated like a plot device, like he doesn't matter. That he be the only one to be thrown under the bus because the writers don't care if Sam's actions are likable or not. They would never consider treating Dean like that so why do it to Sam?
ReplyDelete"Dean fans don’t like it because either they don’t want Sam to be more powerful than Dean".
ReplyDeleteAs a Dean fan, I disagree. I liked Sam's powers when they started to manifest. I thought they were very useful and frankly, pretty damn cool (Go Sam!).
They started to bother me in S4 because it was clear that something linked to those powers was changing Sam, and not for the better. It's impossible for me to see these powers as making Sam more powerful than Dean, or anybody. The fact is, using these powers and growing them with demon blood made Sam weaker.
He was unstoppable physically (I love the way he vaporized Alastair, whew! *fans self*), but it tainted his humanity and turned him into something that was getting to demon-like for my taste. When his eyes turned black I was officially over it. What's powerful about cracking out for demon blood, about losing compassion, becoming drunk with power that is an illusion because you don't really have a handle on it and because it makes you susceptible to manipulation and to being used as a weapon to bring about more evil in the world?
I never thought Sam's body was falling apart because the demon blood was being washed out of him either (time will tell, or not, if those two circumstances are related).
The trials were supposed to be brutal and it would be too easy to do something as enormous as closing the gates of hell and get out of it have a mild headache. Of course such harrowing task would end up killing whoever took it on. One thing I'll never understand, is why Sam was the one giving his blood to Crowley. Isn't there a little trace of demon essence in Sam's blood? Anyway, writers can't get their rugaru and Gran Canyon straight so let's not even go there lol.
I think the blood is evil. It comes from demons = it's evil. That simple. I don't think the powers are evil, but using them puts Sam on a slippery slope because they seem to be addictive. The more he uses them the more things he wants to do with them, and demon blood seems to increase the powers. I don't want Sam to drink demon blood ever again. I've seen who he is when he's addicted to it, and I never, ever, ever want to see that guy again.
I don't believe that the demon blood is neutral power. In The Great Escapist Sam told that when he was really little he felt that he was not clean. Dean was still reading to him so it was well before Sam found out about their family hunting monsters. I don't believe that John or Dean abused Sammy in a way that he would start to feel that he is not pure so it had to come somewhere.
ReplyDeleteI think there might be a chance to do good even with demon blood like Sam did at the beginning of season 4 such as exorcising the possessed without killing the host and sending demons straight to hell. Free will vs. destiny. However, I think the nature of the powers makes it very difficult to avoid how the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Sam would have to be very disciplined and that requires practicing it without shame or hiding it from Dean.
In The Great Escapist Sam told that when he was really little he felt
ReplyDeletethat he was not clean. Dean was still reading to him so it was well
before Sam found out about their family hunting monsters. I don't
believe that John or Dean abused Sammy in a way that he would start to
feel that he is not pure so it had to come somewhere.
I disagree. Kids pick up on subtle and subconscious attitudes of their parents. John being suspicious of Sam's issues (and Mary died in Sam's room which started John's obsession) could easily have had him acting as if Sam weren't good enough, whether he intended the message or not. In season one it was obvious that John vocally disapproved of everything Sam valued and of Sam's choices. That kind of behavior starts early.
I don't accept the the demon blood is so tainted that it must not be used, even though I suspect the show will continue with that motif. That goes along with the old "you are black if you have one drop of black blood" rule that was used during segregation. I simply do not believe that Sam was evil from day one. If you say the demon blood is ipso facto bad, evil and corrupts then you are saying that Sam is and was evil and can never do anything good.
I'm not saying that. Just that since Sam always felt odd, out of place in his family, not clean, that he wasn't pure (=freak) it makes me think that the demon blood is leaning on the evil side. He could feel that something was not right even when he had no knowledge that something had been done to him.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing to consider is that by the time Sam was kidnapped by Azazel, Andy had been practicing his powers and increased his abilities. He didn't seem all that different so it would indicate that the powers can be exercised without evil. On the other hand, Andy might already have started down the slippery slope because he used his powers on someone to play gay porn in their head "all hours of the day". This happened despite having any hang-ups about the powers like Sam.
Sam is a good person and he has the benefit of knowing how careful one would have to be so I do believe that he could use the powers for good.
I did not get that John disapproved of everything Sam valued, he told him he was afraid of him being alone. He wanted to keep him safe and felt the only way to do that was to stay close to family. John had gone to Stanford several times to check up on Sam.
ReplyDeleteBut was Sam really cleansed of the demon blood? It was never very clear to me if that was actually happening or if it was just something Sam thought. Given that Sam's internal organs were burned, that's probably what he was feeling at the time.
ReplyDeleteI never thought Sam's body was falling apart because the demon blood was
ReplyDeletebeing washed out of him either (time will tell, or not, if those two
circumstances are related).
Neither did I. I'm glad I'm not the only one. I just thought that was something Sam thought; I didn't think it actually happened.
But I think there is a difference btw Sam's powers and the DB. As far as we know, Ava, Andy, and the kid who stabbed Sam (forgot his name) weren't drinking DB to increase their powers. They were just giving in to them.
Ruby told Sam he didn't need the blood to do what he did. I always thought it was a mental block for Sam. He couldn't advance or increase his abilities like Ava or Jake (ha - remembered his name) b/c there was a mental block preventing him from doing so like his years of training, etc. But when he drank the blood, he could use the "blood" as the reason for what he was doing. Ruby knew that blood was addictive so that just kept Sam tied to her.
I agree about Sam not needing the blood to do what he did. Ava, Andy, and Jake didn't need DB. Neither did Sam. Ruby just needed Sam to be dependent on her, and she likely knew of the addictive qualities of DB, which is why she got Sam hooked on it.
ReplyDeleteYeah . . . that's the funny thing about Sam's "dark path" . . . he never actually went dark, IMO.
ReplyDeleteSam spends all of S4 using his powers for good. He saves hosts and tries to kill Lilith - a demon both boys thought was trying to bring about the Apocalypse. The one "dark" thing he did was drain the nurse, but as you said, that's no different than the boys stabbing all the hosts. It may have been better for Sam to actually go dark than the "semi-dark" path Kripke chose.
I agree with you and thought that was why Ruby called Sam, Dumbo, he did not need the blood to "fly".
ReplyDeleteIn a way, it makes sense if the demon blood is gone because Sam was ready to administer blood to Crowley for the last time. A demon wouldn't really be cured if he received even a hint of demon blood so he could again draw powers and turn evil.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I'm not sure I like the idea of erasing something like that from Sam. Learning to accept himself and not see himself as tainted would be much better.
I don't know why either. I don't mind any of the shady/questionable stuff Sam's done, but I would appreciate some insight into his motivations and reasons like they do w/Dean. I hate having to guess at why Sam did something. It's never abundantly clear like w/Dean.
ReplyDeleteI too think there's a difference between the powers and the blood. As I've stated one isn't evil and the other is.
ReplyDeleteI did remember what Ruby said about Sam not really needing the demon blood and I totally agree with the mental block thing.
I still think in Sam's case, the powers and the blood have become linked because of the way his addiction played out. If he starts using the first ones, he's on that same slippery slope that led him to the second one. Addicts need to stay away from triggers as well as things that have become associations to those triggers. That's why in my mind, Sam is better off leaving his powers where they are, dormant. And I'm saying this as someone who LIKES his powers. Hand of Ipecac FTW! lol
Dean has always been scared of Sam's powers/visions/etc. It didn't help matters that John told Dean to KILL Sam if Sam "became evil," so Dean has been on edge ever since he learned that info. Plus, you had Castiel - an angel - telling Dean that Sam needed to be stopped or Heaven would do it. So, all the fears Dean had about Sam's powers came to fruition.
ReplyDeleteAnd since the show is told from Dean's POV, the audience thought the powers were bad, but as you said, Sam was not "evil" in S4. He was saving hosts, sending demons to Hell, and trying to kill Lilith. His power didn't come from actively drinking DB, which was the most disgusting thing Sam did that year. He had those powers - just like Ava, Jake, Andy and the other PKs - once the YED bled into his mouth. He just needed to "give in" and let the power do what it would. He never needed more DB.
Honestly, the biggest mistakes Sam made in S4 were personal ones like lying to Dean, choking him out, following a demon, etc. But he was never evil.
Well, the initial power came from DB, so the question becomes can one use the powers w/o going off the deep end? We don't have the answer to that. That was Sam's main fear: that he was destined to become something evil and needed to be hunted. That's why he would never willingly give into the powers.
ReplyDeleteDrinking DB was just plain nasty. It's not clear though if anyone drinking any old DB would gain powers. Maybe there was something special about the YED that gave the PKs powers? We don't know. It wasn't very clear. The bad thing about DB was its addictive qualities and how cracked out Sam was when he was actively drinking it.
The lines between good and evil have definitely blurred. Demons are sometimes more sympathetic than the angels, so while Dean is trying to save Sam with angel grace, and would never consider demon blood, he may be unintentionally going with the bigger evil.
ReplyDeleteI think it's unclear whether Ruby's Dumbo comment referred to the blood or something else. My interpretation was that she was referring to his choices - the idea of destiny and that Sam and Dean were always destined to end up playing their roles in the Apocalypse. She was saying her manipulations didn't get Sam to where he was in freeing Lucifer - he kept making the "right" choices all on his own. But who knows? I think that line was kept intentionally vague so that it could be interpreted on many levels.
I always took Ruby's words to mean that Sam hadn't needed her blood to use his powers, just that he thought he did.
ReplyDeleteRuby was clever; she got her claws into Sam when he was at his most desperate, having tried everything to get Dean out of hell but having been unsuccessful. He would never have given into her otherwise.
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Sam was actually using his powers for good, sending demons back to hell without hurting the hosts. Sometimes the hosts were already dead but some were still alive, and he saved them.
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Then he only drained the nurse after Dean sent him the famous message which was altered probably by the angels , and Dean's cruel words pushed him over the edge.
You could see before that, that Ruby wasn't too sure Sam would go through with it.
Learning to accept himself and not see himself as tainted would be much better.
ReplyDeleteOh, I agree! That is definitely the better story. But I can see Sam always thinking of himself as a "freak." The poor guy has no self-esteem.
I think she had to be referring to the powers b/c none of the other PKs used DB to manifest their powers. They just did it. Jake even said something about Ava being right and once you "give in," there were all kinds of Jedi mind tricks they could do. Sam never gave in b/c of his fear of becoming evil, but if he could believe the DB was giving him the powers, he would be more capable of subconsciously giving in to his inherent powers.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it had anything to do w/Sam's choices b/c what was wrong about what Sam chose? He just wanted to save hosts and stop the Apocalypse. There's nothing wrong w/that.
Thanks for the comments. I think there was definitely a theme about power corrupting, and we were supposed to see Sam and Dean as weaker when they were separated. The demon blood rift separated them.
ReplyDeleteOn the Dean fan comment, I phrased it as an "either/or" construction, meaning that it was just one of several reasons that fans might not be fond of the idea of Sam getting powers back. I have heard arguments that if Sam has powers, Dean needs to have some too, but I wasn't saying all Dean fans thought that way. For a lot of reasons, the demon blood is a hot-button issue on both sides.
I think it's still unclear why Sam's body broke down. That ending the trials was supposed to help him, but didn't, makes me suspicious that the blood is a factor.
"Well, the initial power came from DB, so the question becomes can one use the powers w/o going off the deep end?"
ReplyDeleteMm, excellent point. I guess the reason I didn't see the powers in themselves as something evil is because they're part of a phenomenon that exist outside of any demon related activity, ex. Missouri and Pamela's psychic powers which I assume they're born with (they're trusted by hunters), since powers acquired later in life tend to come from the practice of black arts, which requires some kind of deal with a demon (not that the would-be witches all know it at the time, see Malleus Maleficarum).
It might not be true in the case of the Psychic Kids. I don't know why, but I always had this idea in the beginning that each of the Psychic Kid was meant to have natural abilities that were magnified and "turned" if you will, by the addition Azazel's. I'm probably wrong. Either way, Sam using his powers / turning to demon blood at this point would be a BAAAAD move.
Thanks for the comments. I just mentioned in another post that there was the theme of power corrupting, which we saw in both Sam's S4 arc and Cas's S6 arc.
ReplyDeleteThat's an interesting point about Sam's comment in The Great Escapist. It still leaves me with the question that even if Sam sensed a connection to demons early on, and that he wasn't "pure," possibly interpreted as pure human like his brother and father, does that mean that the powers that came later are "evil"? Sometimes good can come from things that didn't start out that way, and the lines between good and evil have become very blurred on this show.
I agree with your last line about any exploration of his powers needing to be something that he and Dean do together. The one message that has been very clear on this show is that Sam and Dean are stronger together.
To my knowledge, it was never definitely stated that Sam's blood was purified. It was just something he felt, and that we needed to take his word for IMO, since he couldn't exactly go to the doctor and ask for blood test to check whether his blood was human or demon. ;)
ReplyDeleteI think John always looked at Sam sideways after the nursery incident. He loved him, but he questioned whether something was off.
ReplyDeleteI had a similar interpretation - that drinking the blood was a crutch that helped Sam accept his powers. It comes down to the comment in his S4 fight with Dean about whether it was something he was "doing" (drinking blood) or something he "is" (a monster). By drinking the blood, Sam was able to deny to himself that he was a monster because in his mind the power was in the blood, not in him.
ReplyDeleteNo problem. I think it's a very interesting discussion and I'm all over it as you can see lol. I get that you were listing a few of the reasons why some Dean fans don't t like the powers and I've heard all of them. Maybe I didn't express myself well (ESL) but I wanted to expand on this idea that they were a source of strength for Sam because I came to see them as a vulnerability that can destroy him and something that others can use against him.
ReplyDeleteIt's not impossible that the blood is a factor in Sam's body shutting down. Anything's possible. Personally don't think it is a factor. I never got the idea that the trials were supposed to purify Sam. He kept talking about it did the tablets didn't mention anything about it? I saw the trials as a sacrifice some human martyr was going to have to make to protect the rest of the world from demons; a sacrifice they would pay with their life. Noway you can close Hell gates and get out of it alive. Too easy.
I also have to say that I don't like the idea of Sam being "purified" from the demon blood. It's not his fault. It's not his sin. I want him to come to a point where he accepts that he's good and worthy and human, even with a few drops of that other stuff in him. I wish Dean could help him reach that revelation but Dean's been burned badly by the whole blood-Ruby-powers-Ruby-blood fiasco and I'm sure he doesn't want to talk about it anymore lol.
What I meant is that the season 5 theme about destiny was that Sam and Dean were always going to end at the same place, regardless of the choices they made. Sam would always end up letting Lucifer out the cage. Dean would always say no to Lucifer and end up in "The End" scenario. I'd have to rewatch the Ruby scene, but she makes some comments prior to the line that made me think it was about the choices Sam made, which always brought him back to where she wanted him.
ReplyDeleteHi! Yeah, I like the idea of differentiating between demon blood and powers.
ReplyDeleteI do believe that demon blood is evil. Sam instinctively knew that something was not right. It goes beyond that though. Purified human blood can be used to cure a demon (a corrupted soul!). If there is healing good blood, it makes sense that there would be a bad counterpart to it such as demon blood. Balance needs good and evil.
I think all comes down to the individual itself. Sam is not ruined because he has demon blood. Sam might have felt like it would be wrong of him to use is abilities because there is darkness in him. Ironically, that might be just the reason why he could use them for good.
I don't think Dean was actually scared of Sam's powers/visions in themselves, I think he was scared of the harm they would wreak on Sam; afraid if other hunters got to hear of them they might hunt his brother.( which they did , see Walt and Roy )
ReplyDeleteEven when the angels told him Sam was tainted, Dean would not consider killing him but at most try to keep him safe.
Exactly. All the other special children managed fine without drinking blood, esp Andy and his twin whose powers were pretty stong and consolidated.
ReplyDeleteSam didn't need demon blood to develop his powers but I do think that drinking it goes beyond being the feather to Sam's Dumbo.
ReplyDeleteIn My Bloody Valentine, Famine deliberately sent demons to Sam and says that Sam will never die from drinking too much. (Not so much for the other psychic kids?) Satan intended Sam to be able to drink demon blood and there has to be a purpose other than to overcome a mental block. In Swan Song, Sam was able to get rid of the demons just by closing his eyes and Lucifer immediately knows that Sam is full of demon blood.
Haha . . . no, he couldn't have done that. I never believed his blood was actually being purified. And I guess I never bought into the idea that Sam was tainted at 6 months old.
ReplyDeleteBut I would think all the PKs could drink tons of demon blood b/c they were all groomed to host Lucifer. That's how I always understood the story b/c Sam could have randomly died as a kid or a teen, and then what would have been the plan? When Sam did "die," the YED was ready to move on with Jake. I'm thinking Lucifer would have used Jake just like he would have used Sam.
ReplyDeleteSam supposedly had to drink DB to host Lucifer. That was it's only purpose. They said Nick was drinking it daily by the gallons, and his body was still deteriorating. I wouldn't think that would have happened to any of the PKs.
. By drinking the blood, Sam was able to deny to himself that he was a monster because in his mind the power was in the blood, not in him. Of course the irony was that by drinking the blood, he was turning into a vampire of sorts.
ReplyDeleteExactly! This is how I always understood the DB and how it worked. It's really the only way to reconcile Sam's use of the DB when none of the other PKs needed it . . . . at least IMO. YMMV.
Yes, I didn't think of the powers as "evil" in the beginning either b/c I assumed that Sam was born with them like Missouri and Pamela, but we learn that he only has those powers b/c the YED bled into his mouth when he was an infant.
ReplyDeleteMeeting Max and exerting a bit of TK was too much for Sam, IMO. I think that's when he shut his mind down to the powers and why he would never fully embrace them like the other PKs. He was far too afraid of becoming "evil." And John's secret only increased that fear in Sam.
I don't think Sam would have use any powers at this point in his life. If he found himself exhibiting powers, he'd probably freak out!
I agree, but I think he was a little afraid of the powers, themselves, in S1. I remember his scared look when Sam leaves the room in the Max episode. He looks concerned and slightly frightened right after reassuring Sam that everything will be okay.
ReplyDelete"But I would think all the PKs could drink tons of demon blood b/c they were all groomed to host Lucifer."
ReplyDeleteCould be. I have a feeling that Sam was a special case though because his body was made for Satan. Famine says: "You're the exception that proves the rule. Just the way...Satan wanted you to be.". I think all the psychic kids had potential to be powerful but in the end there could only be one. Sam.
That's how I always saw it. Azazel got the world's WORST instructions from Lucifer. "Find me a special child" is not exactly clear. I always figured Azazel tracked family lines and then made deals with anyone carrying the "able to vessel an archangel" gene. He held the death match with his psy-kids figuring the strongest one would be the best host to Lucifer. I think inoculating them with demon blood was a way to make sure their systems would be set to ingest the demon blood needed to host Lucifer. Sort of like vaccinating against flu means you can be exposed and not get it. He was vaccinating against the effects of demon blood.
ReplyDeleteI thought that once Sam turned out to be the last psykid standing, the angels and Lucifer went with "OOO, brothers, just like Lucifer and Michael. Dad would LOVE that" and then retconned their understanding of what was supposed to happen. It happens all the time, something happens and we find ways to justify why it was always meant to happen that way. Especially when your father is God and you are sure he has a plan so you try to put order onto a coincidence. I mean, yes John was a bad**s but I don't think he would have withstood Alistair trying to break him for 100 years AND been close enough to the open door to Hell to escape. I think Dean and John had ticked off the demons and then John escaped so they turned their attention to Dean. The angels used his breaking in Hell as the "proof" he was the righteous man because Sam was suddenly Lucifer's vessel. Basically, I'm not sure the angels or the demons knew exactly what was going on, so they told the story the way that made it epic, instead of random.
ReplyDeleteI agree, I always saw the psychic kids as some sort of experimentation. YED told that there are other generations. That's why I don't think all the psychic kids would have been able to handle demon blood like Sam. So many of them couldn't even handle their basic powers.
ReplyDeleteLucifer is such a specific master and it makes sense that not even the psychic kids would be able to contain him. Hence, he went to Nick who seemed to be an ordinary guy and told him: "I'm here because you're special, Nick. There's very, very few people like you.".
There is no more demon blood.
ReplyDeleteGod cured Sam during season 5.
Except that Sam drank demon blood again in My Bloody Valentine when under the influence of Famine and in Swan Song he drank gallons so he could hold Lucifer. God may have cured Sam early in season 5, but it was very clear that Sam went into the Cage filled with demon blood.
ReplyDeleteNo!
ReplyDeleteThe only reason I believe he would get back on the blood is either to whack out Gadreel or to keep Sam's heart beating. It is a possibility to use it against Metraton. If this is the case like the whole Lucifer thing (although not taking Metraton in) I think he would be able to be more in control.
ReplyDeleteThis time 'round I think Dean would actually support this to a certain point, because they don't have alot of backup. Yes there is Crowley and Castiel but with the power struggle with Abbadon and unoriginal grace is it strong enough?. And if they were to beat Metraton and take down his army without Sam involved with his power-ups... I can't actually think how they would besides just hunt them down one by one. Who knows? they'll might meet a nice and alive and powerful angel or else.
I do wonder if that trial is still up for grab but for slightly different. I think it would be to lock certain angels and demons together but more like a purgotory place thingy, almost like a cage for them. That may happen in a sense without trials.
I've been saying Sam's powers have returned. Even though Gadreel is an angel I just think he's been using Sam's powersource. So because if it is triggered is that it? will Sam always have those powers originally?. Will it just die out after awhile? or is that the next chapter is how to turn the demon-blood side 'off'?.
If it does come to this point I do think Dean will be more accepting of it. Of course there will be concerns but I do believe Dean is going to handle this differently from the last time.
Now would I want Sam's powers back?. Yes and No.
Yes- I like to see what Sam can do, its pretty cool though as a character. He's half human- half supernatural :)
No- If this is going to be uncontrollable blood intake and going darkside then I'd rather not see that. I also wouldn't like to see any more fighting with Dean either and last time was brutal!.
So overall I would always watch supernatural whatever path it takes and I just can't wait for it to be back on :D :D :D
Yes, that's how I saw it too. That was the entire point of the PK storyline. They were all potential vessels for Lucifer.
ReplyDeleteBut Sam died. If Dean hadn't made the CRD, Sam would have remained dead. I agree w/Percy in that the YED had all the PKs duke it out to see which one would be the winner. That person would then go on to host Lucifer. If it was always meant to be Sam, then why bother making other PKs.
ReplyDeleteThe honest truth is Kripke probably just changed his story in S5 b/c the PK storyline made it clear that there was more than one "perfect" vessel for Lucifer. There were several "perfect" vessels. It didn't have to be Sam.
I think Kripke just changed (retconned) his story. Haha!
ReplyDeleteI have wondered if there will be demon blood to heal Sam. It makes sense if the confession before the third trial purified his blood. Cas said he was hurt in ways he couldn't heal. Bobby asked Dean if they totally detoxed Sam if he'd still be "Sam". I also feel Sam is a good person. Death told Sam he was proud to personally collect someone like Sam Winchester and I didn't think he was taking him back to hell either .John must have had a heck of a lot more intell for Dean that he whispered to him than we know because the look on his face was horrified Of course saying kill your brother is pretty horrible.. I'm still not sure Dean told Sam all there was to that last conversation with Dad. It's bothered me for several seasons if there's more. We know Dean can't live without Sam. He didn't call him a monster in S4 . He said "If I didn't know you, I would want to hunt you" implying that he was indeed worried other hunters would and of course they did in Darkside of the Moon .Dean loves Sam more than anything, more than his own life. The whole point of all of it is "There ain't no me if there ain't no you." The boys will be okay. They will work it out just like they always do.
ReplyDeleteThat's one thing I wouldn't mind if the new writers retconned out of existence. I hated all of that shite.
ReplyDeleteCause you don't need to justify a plot device's motives, just an actual character's.
ReplyDeleteI like this post I'm so tired of people talking trash about Sam.
ReplyDeleteOne detail that everybody seems to be forgetting about the demon blood. Sam was meant to be Lucifer's vessel from the start. Ruby knew this so that's why she got Sam addicted to the blood because he would need it for his body to house Lucifer. I don't think the blood had anything to do with his "powers" she just needed him to be strong enough for Lucifer.
Yes, on Spn, especially now the confines between good and evil are diefinitely blurred.
ReplyDeleteIs angel grace more 'wholesome' than demon blood? Good question.
x
As for S4 and Ruby's words,they are sort of ambiguous, but I always interpreted them as meaning he didn't need the demon blood to maximise his powers, he just used it as a crutch, as a logical explanation for his increased powers , for if Ruby was referring to Sam's choices, then there's not much there. Let's have a look.
x
He didn't choose to be born, he didn't choose to be infected with demon blood. He didn't choose to die at Cold Oak; he tried to be merciful in not killing Jake,e and in choosing mercy got killed himself. Not exactly an evil choice.
During the whole of s3 he tried to get Dean out of his deal, at times coming up with the weirdest solutions to try and save him.
Remember when Lilith tried to kill Sam at the end of the ep, he was immune to her, even without the blood. No bad choices there.
In S4 he was reduced to a drunken hobo just waiting for Death to claim him, because he couldn't find a way to free Dean from Hell, and in his desperation Ruby offered him a way to get revenge on Lilith for what she did to Dean, by training him to use his powers and he took it.
Throughout that season though, he still tried his best to save people, especially Dean whose life he saved more than once, especially memorable the time with Alastair.
Remember he believed to the very end that Killing Lilith would be simple revenge. He didn't know that Lucifer would be freed from the Cage, neither did Dean,he just wanted to save his Brother from the blood addiction.
The sanctimonious Castiel who did know, let him out of the panic room, so that wasn't Sam's choice.
However, if we consider that the whole affair was pre-destined from the word go by Heaven, then whatever choices either Winchester made were pointless and so Sam's choices were too.
Oh yeah, Dean surely must have had a mix of emotions and there was probably a little bit of fear thrown in, but I still think it was more fear for what the powers might do to Sam than anything else.
ReplyDeleteHowever if we are to believe what we were told in the pathetic Hunters Heroici ep, the Winchesters, John too, knew an old guy who wasn't just a powerful psychic but used telekinesis, and there was no hunting of him, they were even friends, so all this horror at Sam having a vision seems overkill.
Of course that was Carver's re-hashed S8 canon.
So true, sometimes we fixate on the little things and forget the big picture.
ReplyDeleteSam was destined for Lucifer and so it was always going to be difficult to avoid his fate whatever choices he made.
Instead of blaming Sam we shoiuld have more empathy for what the poor guy has had to suffer.In the end he had no choice, but even so he did what he could , taking all the blame on himself when others had their share too, and throwing himself into the Cage. He should be admired, not targeted as evil.
Who's blaming Sam? I haven't seen anyone trashing him yet. And I never saw Sam being solely blamed for anything. They ALL had blame in everything that happened, and from what I've seen, they all have been blamed.
ReplyDeleteTo me, it's the opposite; Sam has been shown to be the ONLY character that matters. And as for being thrown under a bus, what exactly do you think they're doing to Dean right now? Never consider treating Dean bad? Seriously? The ENTIRE series they've have character after character tell Dean how worthless and unimportant he is. The writers don't care if Sam is likable or not? W
ReplyDeleteAgain, not understanding this line of thought. I think Sam has been shown to be the fuller character in every way. From the very beginning, it's Sam who wanted a normal life, Sam was super smart and got a scholarship to college, Sam found true love not once but several times, Sam was the ONLY one who could defeat Lucifer and stop the Apocalypse. What's Dean's characterization? Everybody tells him he's stupid, worthless, a crybaby, and even his own father impressed upon him that his other value was in looking after Sam. Dean has NO life save to exist for Sam. I wish they BOTH could have a life outside of eachother.
ReplyDeleteWho does not ? where was Dean blamed for breaking the first seal or Castiel blamed for his role in letting Sam out of the panic room. Lucifer getting out was laid at Sam's door ... ' Sam broke the world ' 'Sam did everything because he was stupid , prideful and selfish ' . Of course Sam has been trashed , it is still being done , it is not has if it cannot be seen openly .
ReplyDeleteYou don't have long to wait. A little over a week before we see more. ;)
ReplyDeletelol! Thanks for the reply.
ReplyDeleteAs Percy said, we ended season 5 with a lot of blood and then it was never addressed again. During the Soulless Sam period, I was expecting that one of the secrets that would come out of it would be that Soulless Sam still had his powers and he was using them indiscriminately because he didn't have a soul holding him back, but we never saw any sign of that. If they're gone for good, I'd like that confirmed on the show.
ReplyDeleteSam is a cool character that is true. What I want to know, is what is it about blood? Sam wanted the Demon blood- after a while, needed it. It looks like Crowley needs it now too. He seems to have gotten a taste (sorry) for it himself. although he wanted Kevins, not Sams. there is a blood theme here isn't there?
ReplyDeleteThanks for commenting. I wish the show would do a little more to clarify what exactly the trials did to Sam and why - unless the reason they're being so secretive about it is because there is a big reveal like this coming - although the cynical side of me tends to doubt it. But why isn't Sam trying to find out more about what's happened to his body? I was joking in another post about him going to the doctor, and that's obviously not too practical here, but he could try to fake his way in to get x-rays, or at least try to see if he could find more research on the affects of the trials.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was talking about Dean calling Sam a monster, I was thinking about later in the season, in When the Levee Breaks. It actually happens a couple of times (first is just in Sam's head, and it's a hallucination of Dean, but it speaks to Sam's fears), and then it comes out in their fight at the hotel, and the comment triggers Sam to lose control and start choking Dean.
Pulling up the transcripts now. This was the hallucination (editing out most of Sam's responses for space):
DEAN: I know why you really drink that blood, Sam ... Makes you feel strong. Invincible. A big bad wolf in a world of little pigs. ... It's more than that, isn't it? It's because your whole life, you felt different. Am I right? ...
Oh, I hit a little close to home, huh? Not different because you were some lonely kid or because of your weirdo family. ... Because you're a monster. ... You were always a monster. And you only feel right when you're sucking down more poison and more evil.
And then this was the real Dean at the hotel room:
Dean: No. You don't know what you're doing, Sam.
Sam: Yes, I do.
Dean: Then that's worse.
Sam: Why? Look, I'm telling you-
Dean: Because it's not something that you're doing, it's what you are. It means -
Sam: What? No. Say it.
Dean: It means your a monster.
This is to both Roxi and Sharonally - can not have this debate here? It just leads to Sam vs. Dean fighting and it's off-topic to the question in the article, which is whether the demon blood powers should be brought back.
ReplyDeleteThis line of discussion is getting off topic. Do you have thoughts on the subject of the article - whether the demon blood powers should be brought back?
ReplyDeleteThat's a great question about what's going on with Crowley and the blood. I want to hear more on that too.
ReplyDeleteI realize that however it was a open comment that was posted . It was as far as I was going to go on the subject .
ReplyDeleteI just want to reign in this type of debate before it gets out of control. The subject of Sam and Dean's relationship was in the article, but these debates about whether the writers and fans favor Sam or Dean take on a life of their own and can pull the conversation off topic, so I'm asking for your cooperation in just ignoring any comment like that you see.
ReplyDeleteI have to disagree with you here.
ReplyDeleteSam has been blamed for every single thing he has done, from going to Stanford right up to being a worse brother to Dean than Benny was.
Dean summed up just about everything at the Church door in Sacrifice when he laid out the list of all the things Sam was guily of, and should confess to, including the ridiculous soullessness which in no way could Sam be blamed for.
Not only do the characters on the show blame him but a lot of fans see him as the bad brother too.
All oft his is utterly unfair, for as you have rightly said, if there is any blame to be given, it falls on many shoulders, beginning with MaryWinchester.
"To move forward, something needs to change in the story so that Sam becomes an active participant again in what is supposed to be Sam and Dean’s story. Sam’s story has almost become a joke in that every other character seems to have more control over Sam than Sam has."
ReplyDeleteThe only thing that has to change, in my opinion, is the focus. As you put it, SPN is Sam and Dean's story but you wouldn't know it this season as the writing team seems more interested in telling the story of every other character than Sam and Dean's. To make Sam an active participant again, the focus has to be put on him, on his point of view, not simply serve as a vessel or a plot device which is what Sam has been reduced to. I wouldn't mind if his powers were back and I wouldn't mind the demon blood returning but only if his feelings about it were shown, if he was treated as a real character, as that Sam Winchester we love and respect: the hunter, the smart guy, the man of letters. I don't know what the showrunner is trying to do with him this season, hell, I don't even know where this season is going, I only know that it annoys me that instead of Sam and Dean's story we have angels and more angels with no real purpose or conection to the Winchesters.
If they did revisit the demon blood, I don't know how they could do it without showing more of Sam's POV ... but then again, I'm often surprised. Regardless of how this current situation is resolved, it's important that Sam play an active role in the resolution. If he's unconscious or tied up when whatever Dean wants done is done to him, and there's no repercussions about all of these consent issues, that's going to be very bad.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. That was my point an you said it better than me.
ReplyDeleteIt's just that I care about Sam (and Dean) and addictions are never good.
ReplyDeleteI see that someone downvoted me, but NSA (Frank) will take care of that... ;P
haha All opinions on this topic are welcome. :)
ReplyDeleteIf they did revisit the demon blood, I don't know how they could do it without showing more of Sam's PO.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure they could manage it! Haha!
I don't foresee Sam playing an active role in the resolution of this GadZeke plot. I'm thinking he'll just be sitting there when Dean and/or Crowley get GadZeke out of him, and then depending on whether the show even remembers that he's sick, he may be ill for awhile or he might be magically healed. Then, he'll ditch Dean for a few episodes and then he'll come back having forgiven Dean.
This thought came to me later last night but is Gadreel an angel in the full angel sense or he is part demon? He was Lucifer's right hand man according to lore, he turned into the snake and convinced Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge and so one has to ask...how will his possessing Sam affect Sam? As to the monster comment: I think Dean was trying to make a point. He cannot fully grasp the idea that his little Sammy is really evil. He was commenting on the behavior, the choice Sam was making. Dean believe heavily in the choices people make. It's why he trusted Benny and believed Cas could decide to leave the evil behind. Dean is all about making the choices he has to. He sacrifices everything for the people he loves. He gave up any hopes and dreams he had for himself to John and Sam. His life has been all kinds of hell literally and figuratively and yet he still believes he can save then all. He does what has to be done. Sam loves Dean but he hasn't made the same sacrifices Dean has made for him. He hasn't had to because Dean has spent his life protecting Sam. Sam has a lot of guilt for Dean not having a normal life or a lot of personal happiness but he was never fully charged with taking care of Dean in the way Dean has been since he was four years old. When Jodi said "what you and Dean have is pretty special", he shrugged. I guess part of that could be
ReplyDeleteGadreel or partly Sam just not realizing it because he takes Dean's role in his life and his protection for granted .Don't anyone take it wrong. I'm an admitted Dean girl but I love Sam. And Kripke made it no secret this is Sam's story from Dean's POV from day one. We have always seen it a little more Dean skewed for that reason. People are saying Sam has no story but I think the story is just taking off. (Jared seems excited over it in interviews) This show has always taken a dramatic turn mid season and I don't think we'll be disappointed. Sam and Dean always make out on the other side.
Hummm . I am NOT a John fan. I think he screwed Dean up good and I like him less than ever since Bad Boys. I always go back to Something Wicked and the fact that Dean said he never looked at him the same. Of course he was pretty screwed up or obsessed with his YED mission to tell that same kid to kill his brother if he went darkside. Still, he saved Dean. Oddly Dean is still so loyal. Henry said Sam was like John and I agree. He has the same effect on Dean. Sam always thinks he's so different but he's a lot like John.
ReplyDeleteBut why isn't Sam trying to find out more about what's happened to his body?
ReplyDeleteDoes Sam even know there is anything wrong w/his body though? Doesn't he feel okay? I know Vesta told him he was all duct tape and staples inside, but I think he just thought she was noticing his "freak" qualities. I'm not sure. As usual w/Sam, it is not clear.
I think it would have made more sense to show Sam concerned w/his frequent black outs and missing time since he doesn't physically feel ill, but the show skipped right over that. Wouldn't Sam go to the doctor if he's missing huge hunks of time? I would think so!
I don't think the show is inclined to do this (show Sam's pov or make him an active participant in the resolution). I'm not being pessimistic but it has been quite a long time since they have given Sam's POV any more than lip service and their focus seems to be more on the impact of Sam/Castiel/Dean's decisions and actions on Dean, not the other way around. Add to that, this season has been awash with the idea that non-consent is okay as long as the protagonist gets what he/she wants. We saw this with Dean in Rock and a Hard Place, Castiel in I'm No Angel and even Kevin in Devin May Care (when he threatened to reveal a military sergeants holidays photos). All these actions have been endorsed by awe and congratulations from other characters.
ReplyDeleteIt's hard to see what repercussions can be had with this. The deed is done. Gadreel will have been in and out before Sam ever gets to speak a word of it. At the end of the day he will be alive, and that's all Dean wanted. Sam's happiness, Sam's wants are, and always have been, a distant second. Sam may feel betrayed, he may be unhappy with Dean but he’ll let it go, because he will have no choice. What’s done is done.
That we have gone 9 episodes with little to no insight on just how would feel about possession speaks volumes. The next few episodes are Sam light. By the time we
get around to Sam actually having a reaction (if he's allowed. It could be washed away by Dean begging Sam not to be mad with him and Dean simply saying that he did what he had to do) the moment will have passed and it will come across as being too little, too late. It would be like Castiel confessing to opening the Panic Room door. After all this time it’s lost its impact. Dean was afforded 6 episodes to consistently criticise Sam for his decision in relation to a normal life and Purgatory.
He never afforded Sam the chance to speak, and stropped off whenever he
felt like it, so betrayed did he fell and so angry he was. I doubt Sam will be allowed a fraction of that.
I've thought about that several times. Sam/Gadreel did too. There was that moment when he was looking at the kit and the needles and I think he kinda looked weird at Crowley too. One thing we know is this if the demon blood will help, Dean will do it to save his brother.
ReplyDeleteSam took the full blame and responsibility for the Apocalypse. All the characters blamed him as well as most of the viewing audience. Sam even says in S5 that he brought on the Apocalypse, and no one disagrees w/him.
ReplyDeleteThat's happened to me too :-)
ReplyDeleteI don't think Dean has been trashed by this season's events. The benefit Dean got was a full explanation of his reasons and motivations. I completely understand why Dean did what he did, and I'm not angry w/him for it. What Sam needed in S8 was some explanation for his choices, but he got none, which is why most fans were angry w/him.
ReplyDeleteI don't remember that cartoon episode at all. Haha!!
ReplyDeleteI just remember Dean continually referencing Sam's powers as "freaky." I think he was a little freaked out by them. in fact, in the episode "Simon Says/Said," didn't he confess to Andy that he was freaked out by Sam's powers.
I think he became more afraid for Sam in S4 when he saw what Sam was doing w/the powers, and when Castiel threatened Sam's life. I think that's when Dean got scared that hunters would hunt Sam b/c of the powers.
Is it bad that I have no recollection of RAAHP? What was that episode about?
ReplyDeleteAnyway, great post! I really agree w/you. I think the momentum for Sam's feelings will be lost since the next 3-4 episodes are "Sam light." If Sam was to have a reaction, we would need to see it immediately. I already think it was bad storytelling to not have Sam speak about his loss of time and his feelings in general until the last two minutes of the episode before the mid-break. We should have seen some concern from Sam leading up to the mid-break, but Sam's POV is just not important to the writers. It hasn't been for a long time.
I am hoping they are unsuccessful in their quest to eject Gadreel from Sam, so that would explain why the next several episodes are Sam light or Sam free. I'd rather see Jared being Gadreel than having no Jared in the next 3-4 episodes at all!
I think the question about whether Dean would start Sam on demon blood if it means saving his life isn't that simple. It goes back to one that's been around since the early seasons - can Dean accept Sam being a monster or will he choose to kill him first? In season 4 (again, When the Levee Breaks) Dean told Bobby he would choose let Sam die human rather than give him demon blood when Bobby suggested Sam needed it to survive, but then at the end of season 5 Dean consented to allow Sam to drink the blood to fight Lucifer. So the question is where Dean stands now - especially after Benny.
ReplyDeleteHi there. Some thoughts ...
ReplyDeleteI don't think Gadreel would be part demon according to SPN mythology. SPN usually adapts biblical figures to make them their own, and demons are supposed to be corrupted human souls, not angels. WIth that said though, I think the parallels between Gadreel and Lucifer, and the fact that he was the angel chosen to possess Sam makes for an interesting situation, and I'm curious where they go with that.
On Dean and Sam's season 4 conversation about Sam being a monster, I agree that what Dean meant and what Sam heard were two different things. I was focusing more on Sam's perception for the purposes of this article.
I took the meaning of Sam's reaction to Jody's comment differently. I'm not sure exactly how I should interpret it, but the writers seem to be saying that Sam's not happy with the current arrangement. He doesn't consider the bunker his home, and he still wants normal.
I think that even Dean would accept Sam's use of demon blood if it were to heal Sam and bring his brother back to him 100 percent. Dean learned through Benny that evil is not an inherent part of how you are made, but rather the result of letting that part of you take control. Benny was "made" into something evil. But his will to be more than that enabled him to redirect his so-called true nature and bring to the forefront the good he knew he possessed.. Sam was manipulated from birth toward the practice of evil. But his will to overcome what he perceived himself to be and what others believed he could become has been the driving force of his character. His resolve has been repeatedly challenged, and in the end he has always prevailed on the side of good. He loves Dean. And the things he has done to hurt his brother have always caused him deep regret: "My greatest sin? How many times I let you down." Maybe now that Dean is able to see that evil can be overcome by strength of will, he will be able to support Sam in a way that enables Sam to use the demon blood as a source of physical strength that can be molded in a way which advances the family business instead of standing as a threat to it.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, Angie Hamilton, this is the problem. Dean will do whatever it takes to save his brother, regardless of the cost to everyone else, Sam included. Sam thinks of the big picture, and the cost to everyone else, Dean doesn't, because he will put his wants (Sam) over the needs of everyone else.
ReplyDeleteIn Dean's quest to keep Sam alive, what his brother wants, his happiness, his self worth, his desires, his hopes, his spirit are immaterial so long as he is physically alive. Dean will keep Sam strapped to a life support machine for years on end, overriding any DNR order Sam has signed because that is what Dean wants. More than that, Dean wants Sam alive and with him, hunting. (The paradox that is Dean wanting Sam alive, but also wanting him to hunt, an occupation that will inevitably kill him never ceases to amuse me!) Dean is perfectly okay with himself dying first because once he's dead and Sam is alive then his job is done. He's perfectly okay with dying for Sam. However, where is Dean's consideration of Sam as a 'person', not as a prop, not as a thing to be saved but as an actual person?
Would Dean inject Sam with demon blood to keep him alive? Yes, I believe he would. Would he do it knowing that it would absolutely devastate his brother? Yes, I believe he would. However, Sam cannot continue to live as whatever Dean decides he's okay with Sam being. I'm sure Dean would be fine with Sam being alive while having demon blood in him but would Sam?
I'm not sure how you're defining "true love." Sam had Jess. Madison he knew for a couple of days. He liked her and was attracted to her. He felt horrible having to kill her, but true love? Hardly. He was addicted Ruby's blood, and I won't even entertain the idea he was in love with her. Sarah, again, like Madison was a couple of days. Which brings us to Amelia. Sam and Amelia had zero chemistry. She saved him from self-destruction by giving him someone to save. Sam loved the idea of Amelia in the same way Dean loved the idea of Lisa. Neither was "true love."
ReplyDeleteI would love to see the boys deal with their issues, have a healthier relationship, and friends outside each other, but I've no desire to see them replace their primary relationship with with other people. I'm not interested in seeing them split apart. They are stronger together than apart. The chemistry between them is what keeps me tuning in week after week. I long to see them enjoying being together as they did in S1. That could happen if they'd quit lying and hiding things from each other. That's getting old.
The question may not be simple but Dean will not EVER kill Sam himself. That is simple. Dean will use anything to save Sam and if demon blood is the cure so be it. He'll deal with the issues related to it later.
ReplyDeleteI do think Dean would "accept" Sam's use of demon blood to heal him, if and only if Dean decides it's necessary. I think he would pitch a ginormous fit if SAM came to the conclusion that he needed demon blood to survive. I'm also pretty sure that if Dean realizes that Sam need demon blood on a constant basis, he will insist Sam use it BUT if Sam ever uses any associated powers to save people, stop demons Dean will NOT approve and will go back to wanting Sam to die human.
ReplyDeleteOne of the uncomfortable facts about Dean's desire to save Sam is that it fluctuates. When Sam is ready to die and has accepted it (AHBL and ITIGTLIH) Dean does everything he can to keep Sam alive, up to and including making Sam not completely human by tricking him into saying yes to an angel. But when Sam is using demon blood, Dean wants him to die human. When Cas threatens Sam's wall Dean is more than willing to risk Sam's life to stand up to Cas. When he is told Sam could die if he gets his soul back, Dean doesn't worry about Sam dying. . Dean wants Sam alive on his terms, not Sam's and that bothers me.
In Season 5's "Bloody Valentine," Sam gave in to his craving for demon blood, and used his power to vanquish Famine. Once again, not evil, although he had to detox again.
ReplyDeleteProbably not. Sam has guilt issues that are different from Dean's. He has greater self esteem because Dean and John and Stanford or maybe just himself gave it to him.He worries about the greater good. Dean says he does because John told him that Marine crap to make it easier to do what they do. Cas asked Dean in In The Beginning if he changed the course of history and all those people they'd saved died if he cared. Dean replied "Oh I care." And he did, does but he cares more about Sam. Yes his love is selfish Selfish but incredibly unconditional. He never gave up on Sam. he went to Stull cemetery to be there for Sam even though he didn't approve. This man sold his soul and endured hell willingly because he couldn't bear to have failed to save his brother.But he has never been given the opportunity to see what else he could be. Sam said in Trial and Error he saw the light at the end of the tunnel and wanted to live. All Dean wanted was for Sam to live. All his life it was ingrained to him that Sam's life was more valuable than his. He was angry when Sam could just stop hunting after he was sent to Purgatory because he would have found Sam whatever the cost. Sam missed Dean but he adapted. He was happy after a fashion. He was alright without Dean clearly. Dean never quite adjusted the year he was without Sam(S6). He existed. He went Through the motions .He wasn't happy. And even if he had been when Sam came back he left Lisa and Ben for Sam, even soulless Sam. The demon blood isn't really an issue to Dean. Sam may hate it if they use it but he will understand WHY Dean would do it. Dean doesn't mean to make Sam one thing or another , he just wants to keep him. He has held onto him for 30 years and he doesn't know anything else to do. he really has no other purpose other than that. The hunting is a job, something he does but SAM is his life.
ReplyDeleteFabulous article. I could not agree more with everything you said especially the need to make Sam an active participant moving forward. It has been my biggest criticism of Season 8 & 9. I watch for the story of both brothers.
ReplyDeleteI don't think the demon blood made Sam good or bad. Just like the other "kids" he was who he always was, just Sam. I think the demon blood was given to Sam and the others to give them their abilities and to keep them safe against the Croatoan virus. It was always the end game but the vessels had to be immune. That's why there was a test in season 2 (Croatoan) to see if Sam was, in fact immune. He was- so he was the perfect vessel.
ReplyDeleteRuby conned Sam into taking the demon blood because as a vessel for Lucifer he needed to take it. Nick (the original vessel) was taking gallons of it according to Cass. Which is why Sam took it before confronting Lucifer in Detroit. The blood is a means to an end, not a catalyst. I hope I'm making sense... Sam was always strong and powerful, the blood was an illusion (like a placebo) so he would have something to blame or give thanks to. It was always just Sam.
Short answer. No. We don't need a rehashed story line. Sam isn't the same person he was before-partly because of the trials. Leave it in the past.
ReplyDeleteGood question, but honestly your entire article was too biased! You picked facts from different situations w/o considering those situations:
ReplyDelete--- Sam was never excluded from family b/c they felt he was tainted, there was always a mutual disagreement between John & Sam about their life, hunting vs normal.
--- And Dean's words didn't throw Sam to the dark path in S4, Sam had already made his decision, he was trying to convince Dean to come with him and agree w/ his plans. Don't forget how conceited he was about his power; he was afraid of it but he thought he was the only person who could do sth useful. That's why he blamed himself afterwards.
--- Benny was an example that Dean wouldn't write all freaky not-humans off as evil, like that werewolf girl, Sam's case is obvious. What I got from his comment was it was the dedication and royalty that was important for him - where his brother abandoned him, a vampire earned his brotherhood. No betrayal from Dean here.
But overall, the whole S8 was too full of s* and OOC that isn't even arguable, much less being taken as a reference.
I believe S6 Sam was a demon blood free Sam. No DB can cure a demon. Also I don't think DB has anything to do w/ his body falling apart in trials, they were brutal, Kevin described what it was like. I don't know who said if he finished or abandoned the trials, he'd heal instantly, I never heard that, but I wouldn't count on anything that is mentioned in the tablets b/s Metatron is the one who wrote them, and clearly he's not reliable.
I think DB plot is finished, initial powers were cool and OK for me and I didn't mind if they had gone w/ it, it was there and useful so why not, but DB is evil; still if it's the only cure I believe Dean will accept it, it is Sam I'm not sure about.
Yes it does seem to a blood storyline coming back onto the scenes, especially revolving around Crowley at the moment.
ReplyDeleteI agree the problem is what Sam did in relation to Dean. Telling him he's weak and incapable of doing the job, telling him he doesn't need Dean, when he really does, trying to choke the life out of Dean. Walking out on Dean. Yeah, and Ruby. Not only was he drinking her blood he was having an affair with her. .His mind was not cohesive enough to do the job and do it right. Dean wasn't much better to be honest. They were both messed up but at least he questioned both sides of it.
ReplyDeleteAnd many fans are angry with Dean right now and say they will never forgive him, calling him a rapist. Me, I HATE Dean's actions here. He clearly saw that Sam wanted a peaceful death, but took Sam's choice away from him anyway. I know he did it because he acts impulsively, emotionally, irrationally, and yes, quite foolishly when he feels Sam is in danger. He doesn't stop to think things through, which I feel is his biggest personality flaw. Not only did he trick Sam into being possessed against his will and violate his free will, but said rogue angel used Sam's body to kill an innocent kid who trusted Dean. Couple that with the very sleezy way Dean deliberately set out to get a born again virgin to break her vows a few episodes back and yes I do think the writers are trashing Dean, trying to make him look as bad as possible, especially in contrast to Sam, who is shown to be the innocent victim here of Dean's obsessive hold on him.
ReplyDeleteWhether or not Sam had chemistry with Amelia, it was still shown, to me, that he was very much in love with her, to the point of caring about no one and nothing else, not Dean, not Kevin, and certainly not Don.
ReplyDeleteI don't want them split up either, but I would like to see Dean have something else to live for besides being Sam's caretaker. His obsession with Sam is to the detriment of them both.
I read many comments to the contrary, that Sam thought he was stopping the Apocalypse by killing Illicit. I certainly didn't blame him, and many fans didn't, he didn't know. But then again, he also more than made up for everything by jumping into the cage. Dean on the other hand, can never atone for his actions this season, even though he meant nothing but love. He can never"fix" what he did to Sam, nor how his actions caused Kevin's death. To me, the writers went out of their way to destroy the character.
ReplyDeleteThanks for responding. Since the article's topic dealt with an issue, or choice, that is Sam's, it was deliberately written with a focus on Sam's perspective. In an article about Dean I would focus more on Dean's point of view. I feel like the points that you made are from Dean's perspective.
ReplyDelete- "Sam was never excluded from family ..."
I'm sure that's how Dean saw things, but we know from episodes that have featured Sam's point of view that Sam always felt a freak and different from his family. One example was in When the Levee Breaks, when Sam's hallucination of Dean says he didn't feel different "because you were some lonely kid or because of your weirdo family," but "because you're a monster." Another example is Swan Song, when Lucifer who has read Sam's thoughts, and tells Sam, "I'm inside your grapefruit, Sam. You can't lie to me. I see it all, how odd you always felt, how out of place in that family of yours."
- "Dean's words didn't throw Sam to the dark path"
No, it didn't, but it caused Sam to go into a rage against Dean, so it was obviously a sensitive issue for Sam.
- "Don't forget how conceited he was about his power"
I made a comment elsewhere that Sam's story, as well as Cas's in season 6, had a theme of power corrupts, and I agree we were seeing that in Sam's personality change. I do think though that there were conflicts leading up to that point, where Sam tried to get Dean to trust him and treat him as an equal, and Dean was unable to do that, that contributed to rift between them and the events that followed. There are two people in every relationship.
- "where his brother abandoned him, a vampire earned his brotherhood"
Again, Dean's perspective. I was referring to Sam's in my article. I'd make the same argument about different perspectives with Ruby. Whereas Dean saw Sam working with Ruby as a betrayal and being about him, Sam saw Ruby as a means to an end, and didn't think of working with Ruby as having anything to do with Dean - other than giving him more power to help Dean. Different perspectives.
Thanks for the response. I'm curious though what change you saw in Sam as a result of the trials. I didn't think the show had focused much on how the trials had affected Sam, other than the physical breakdown.
ReplyDeleteThanks! Glad you enjoyed reading it.
ReplyDeleteDean has said several times that he is the one that started the Apocalypse, Sam just finished it.
ReplyDeleteYes, iut always bugs me too when someone says Dean chose Benny over Sam. He did no such thing. Sam abandoned Dean for whatever reason, and Dean had nobody else to turn to. It was always clear to me that he would have preferred that Sam be the one he could turn to. Dean loves Sam more than anything. He will NEVER chose anyone over him. But again, this attitude has been a detriment to both of their lives, suffocating Sam and leaving Dean with the belief that his life has no value outside of being Sam's protector.
ReplyDeleteThanks for commenting. :)
ReplyDeleteThis is a very good post. I don't always see Dean in exactly the same way, but I agree with most of it, and you make a compelling argument.
ReplyDeleteand certainly not Don. You mean the Don that he told Amelia to give a chance to within 48 hours of his return. Admittedly Sam didn't care about Don when Don was DEAD, but most people don't think it's adultery if you are with a widow, and don't pray for forgiveness for sleeping with a widow. As for not caring for Dean again Sam thought Dean was DEAD. If you are taking everything as given then Sam believed Dean was DEAD AS A DOORNAIL. He was mistaken, but he did believe it. Again, most healthy people don't act like Queen Victoria and go into mourning for the rest of their lives when someone they love die. They do their best to find a life and move on. Kevin is the one problem I have with Sam, but again YOU set the criteria that what we saw and heard is what happened and Sam was clear he BROKE and yes RAN. It happens. Sam was just coming off being INSTITUTIONALIZED because of 24/7 hallucinations. He broke and actually took care of his emotional needs and stayed sane. It's not anywhere near how you are presenting it.
ReplyDeleteI was responding to another poster saying that people here were trashing Sam, at least that's what I got. I never said Sam wasn't blamed for the things he did. I said that he wasn't the only one blamed for things.
ReplyDeleteI disagreed with Dean bringing that stuff up too, but my feeling about season 8 was that mostly anything Dean said derogatory or in anger was mainly because he was so hurt that Sam abandoned him. Not that that makes it ok or anything, it doesn't.
As for Sam being the " bad brother" I've seen it a lot the other way around too, that Dean is a horrible selfish bastard control freak who won't let Sammy have a normal happy life. So there you go.
He said it MAYBE twice and NEVER EVER to anyone who is hating on Sam. He keeps his image clean with everyone. He sure didn't tell the lady hunter that he was part of starting the Apocalypse, or that Sam actually stopped it. He just handwaved it as a mistake and took no responsibility. Last season he certain continued the it's all Sam's fault line when telling Sam all the things he had to confess.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't the one who took it off track. I was responding to the subtle digs at Dean by a well known Dean hater, and all I was doing was stating my disagreement. Why didn't you say anything to her? If the subject is Sam's demon blood, than the subject should stay with that, not unnecessary digs at Dean.
ReplyDeleteI would be more than happy to talk about Sam's demon blood. In my opinion, we shouldn't revisit it. Not because of any of the reasons you stated in your article, but because Sam himself doesn't want it. He said that he always felt less than human because of it. No, I would like a fully human Sam. To me, it's more meaningful that the human Winchesters fight all this evil without special super human powers, just their own smarts, bravery, and strength.
I was trying to stem the conversation from going too far off track from both sides of the debate. Sorry if it sounded like I was singling you out. Thanks for offering your opinion on subject.
ReplyDeleteI see revisiting demons blood scenario as a very possible way to heal still badly damaged Sam, especially if Cas can not finish the process. Little hints here and there as Crowle's craving for human blood, it hasn't been explained yet, so who knows how writers are planning to connect it to the overall arch.
ReplyDeleteI wont personally mind recycle of that story, I did like it very much. Bring it on!
Excuse me, but Sam DID sleep with Amelia in that hotel room after having met Don and seeing he was a good guy, and knowing full well that Amelia was now living again with Don as his wife. That tells me he didn't care at all about screwing over Don. As for Dean, NOBODY expects that Sam would go on mourning forever, that he wouldn't get on with his life, but he wasn't shown to spend ONE SECOND either mourning or even trying to figure out if Dean was dead. THIS is what was shown. Sam was NOT shown to be "broke" as you claim, in fact, he acted like he resented Dean being alive. Maybe Sam did mourn, but that wasn't shown. I can't just surmise that Sam acted a certain way off camera just because you don't want to admit he ever does anything wrong.Blame the writers, but don't blame me for just going by what was presented. And no, this doesn't mean I hate Sam, because I love him. But he did abandon Dean. That's what was shown.
ReplyDeleteWhen Dean does wrong things, and he does often, like this very season, I don't condone it. If he's wrong, he's wrong I HATE the actions he's committed this season, he was VERY wrong. . Why is it that for some of you, Sam can do NO wrong ever, no matter what?
Thank you, I appreciate that. I often feel attacked here because I am a Dean fan, and yes, this does seem like a very Sam-biased site where I feel Dean is often bashed. If I'm wrong about that, I apologize. But I again, I am against revisiting the demon blood, because Sam himself doesn't want it. I'm ready for a fully human Sam.
ReplyDeleteI didn't get it was from Sam's POV, thanks for clarifying that, but my argues weren't from just Dean's POV, they are general idea, but yeah, definitely not Sam's POV (or some of Sam fans). Still:
ReplyDeleteSam was always sensitive about being freak/different; on one hand he didn't have the same passion for hunting like his family - he wanted normal, on the other hand he didn't feel he belonged to normal either, he was so insecure he considered defending himself at school would label him as 'freak', sth any normal kid would be proud of. So yes, Sam feels different but I'm sure he himself wouldn't say it's b/c of how John looked at him or how he was shunned in the family or society, which we know never happened. The person who is the most hard on Sam about his difference is Sam himself. And after S2 his insecurity reached climax.
Yes, the rage and the fight after was b/c of that, but we were talking about DB addiction and S4 dark path, which started before S4 even. Surely Sam himself wouldn't say Dean's words pushed him to DB addiction.
The rest is, as you said, different perspectives. If we know they're Sam's POV they're true.
I always read your reviews, I'm looking forward to your article from Dean's POV too ;-)
Totally Awesome :D
ReplyDeleteJust to clarify, I said it focused more on Sam's perspective, not that it was written from his perspective. I started writing here the summer after season 6 and wrote a series of articles on Cas's S6 storyline. I had always intended to balance those with some stories on Sam and Dean, but had some serious issues with the show in season 7 and stopped writing about it for over a year. We'll see where Dean's story goes, but if there are some interesting questions or issues to explore, as I expect there will be, I'll likely write something later this season.
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't recall Dean saying he started the Apocalypse in S5. I just remember Sam saying he started so he had to finish it. In FI, I'm pretty sure Sam overheard Dean blaming the Apocalypse on Sam.
ReplyDeleteIn any event, S5 made it clear that Sam felt Lucifer rising and the Apocalypse were solely his fault. He jumped into a hole to atone for what he did.
Roxi, I am referring to S5. I agree that what Sam set out to do in S4 was not necessarily bad (i.e., killing Lilith). Both he and Dean thought killing Lilith was key to stopping the Apocalypse - something both the angels and demons led them to believe.
ReplyDeleteI can only speak for myself but Dean has not been destroyed in my eyes. As I said, the show really did a good job, IMO, of explaining his reasons and motivations, which is very important to me. Knowing that Dean did what he did out of love for his brother goes a long way w/me. I cannot say the same for Sam last year. The show did a crap job w/his perspective, and I just couldn't support his decision. Sam was just horribly OOC in the early part of last season. I can't say I sympathized w/him much; I do sympathize w/Dean though. He meant no harm to his brother, Kevin, or anyone else.
I completely disagree w/most people on that Suzy episode. I saw nothing sleazy or even inappropriate about Dean's actions in that episode. I took it for what it was intended: pure fluff to get Dean in bed. I honestly didn't think anything of that scene until I read all the complaints later.
ReplyDeleteAs far as Dean's actions this season . . . . what can I say? I'm just not upset w/him for what he did. I don't think he looks horrible. I completely understand why Dean took this course of action. He was desperate to save his brother. I do not consider him a rapist or anything like that.
Why do we need an article about Sam's demon blood issues from Dean's POV, the story was originally told from Dean's POV so that doesnt need clarification unless you werent paying attention to what happened on screen?
ReplyDeletesurely Sam and all he has already overcome over the years would have been enough for Dean to see this point, why would he have had to learn that from Benny when Sam has been living proof of good overcoming evil all his life? If he needed Benny to see that then it would indicate that he always saw Sam as a monster who would inevitably give into the evil inside him which although would fit with what we know about Dean's feelings on Sam's demon blood and all that has happened over the years. Maybe all those things Dean keeps throwing back in Sam's face year after year get forgiven by Dean (sort of) because he feels like its in Sam's nature and that the evil in him means he cant help but screw up?
ReplyDeletere-iterating Dean's words that he would rather Sam die human that live as a monster? That makes sense, I dont think he would accept Sam being given or using demon blood to keep him alive. I think he would rather Sam die than go that route again.
ReplyDeleteI would have to agree with this and to tell the truth spoilers for this season dont fill me with hope that Sam actually will become an active player with a POV or have anything to do outside of researching the MOTW cases. But honestly I dont think demon blood is that way to achieve that for Sam. It would just be told from Dean's POV and wouldnt do Sam any favours as a character in his own right but once again make Sam into a plot device.
ReplyDeleteI also agree that the issue this season ocne again seems to be that Sam and Dean (though spoilers indicate that there is plenty for Dean going on from episode 10 onwards interms of the larger storylines) are not active players in the larger mythology. The angel wars storyline is way out of their league and based on spoilers will mostly be dealt with by Cas, Metatron and Gadreel. The only connection I see the Winchesters having to this storyline for the rest of the season is if Dean actually gets the revenge he'll aparently be seeking for Kevin's murder. But once again Sam is not a player in that storyline and theres no guearentee Dean will actually get revenge himself.
I think going forward after Dean's 3/4 episodes of going dark (during which Sam isnt doing anything but being a plot device) we will see Sam and Dean mainly being thrown back into the MOTW episodes and Cas being the main player in the mythology episodes. All very well if you are a Cas fan or a Dean fan to a degree as he is always involved in these episodes thanks to Carver being a Dean and Cas fan but that doesnt exactly give Sam fans any reason to keep watching imo.
I think there's a misunderstanding here, chris said "In an article about Dean I would focus more on Dean's point of view", I simply expressed my desire to read that article too.
ReplyDeleteSo you're basically saying it was from Sam's and YOUR perspective?
ReplyDeleteI do blame the writers for not showing what happened in the aftermath of Dean's disappearance prior to Sam meeeting Amelia. All we have is Sam's statements that his world imploded and rained down around him and that he fixed up the Impala and drove. Either way, that occurred prior to him meeting Amelia. She wasn't part of that decision. It's your choice to believe he just didn't care or that he was traumatized. The absence of something proves nothing either way. By your own logic, you can't say he wasn't broken anymore than others can say he is. We have only his word to go on. Again, you choose what you want to believe here, and you choose to believe the worst of him. I can't believe you could watch the flashbacks of that dinner with Amelia and her father and say that Sam didn't spend one moment mourning or that he was "happy" with Amelia. Even her father could see that wasn't the case.
ReplyDeleteX
As for him caring more for Amelia than Dean -- pretty clearly not. That is willfully distorting the truth. When both Amelia and Dean gave him the same ultimatum in Torn and Frayed -- both feet in or both feet out -- he chose Dean. I'd never say that Sam didn't do anything wrong. Like percysowner said, I have a huge problem with Sam abandoning Kevin. You say you love Sam, but your words suggest that you neither love nor understand him.
I agree. I think those criticizing that scene with Suzy are being paternalistic toward her. She was a grown woman who could have given Dean and earful and thrown him out. She didn't, in part I think, because the episode was criticizing the use of chastity vows/programs to control women's sexuality. The religion of the chastity group was being contrasted with Jody's religion, which was for comfort.
ReplyDeleteX
I think that the use of the term "rapist" is really problematic in that entire discussion. I understand it being a metaphor for Sam's bodily autonomy being violated by possession as it so frequently has in the series. I don't like what Dean did but I understand it, and I think he acted in the only way he could under the circumstances. I wish he had rejected Ezekiel/Gadreel's argument against telling Sam in that first scene where they discussed it and E/G said he'd erase Sam's memories. That is the point that really bothered me. But, again, I don't hate Dean for it. I get that he was being manipulated by E/G from the beginning.
Prior to the Dumbo line, Sam accused her of giving him poison, and she denied it. That's when she said the line about Dumbo. Very clearly she did give him poison. She was his pusher, got him addicted to the demon blood, and then manipulated him. The choices he made while addicted were not made of his free will with a clear head. On the contrary, he was powerfully influenced by Ruby and his addiction.
ReplyDeleteX
It would be interesting to see what his power would be like without those influences. Certainly, there's no reason to believe at this point that angel grace is somehow more benevolent than demon blood given the behavior of angels and demons on the show.
Yeah, I think that Dean has as much trouble as fans do in separating Sam's initial demon blood powers from Ruby's manipulation/influence/blood addiction. And I agree that had Dean taken on the trials, they would have almost killed him as well. The idea that Sam's blood was being purified was I think nothing more than his own wishful thinking. He was pretty clearly messed up mentally in that ep. I think in fact that Sam may have been delusional. That's why he remembered things that Dean didn't -- like the Grand Canyon.
ReplyDeleteHenry meant that Sam was like the John that Henry remembered as kid, not the John that he became after Mary died though. Dean is very much like John in that he tries to control Sam.
ReplyDeleteIf we take John's Journal as evidence at all, and Kripke did approve it, then John knew that Sam was being watched by demons from a very early age, and I think he did think there was something not right with Sam. Kids pick up on stuff like that. Yes, John worried about Sam but not just from outside threats I think. He told Dean that he might have to kill his brother because he thought that Sam might become evil.
Spoilers have confirmed that Gadreel will be out of Sam in episode 10
ReplyDeletethe show will go directly into focusing on Dean's darkness after Sam's quick fix so its unlikely Sam gets to have any kind of reaction to the whole thing as he is ditched by Dean who spends the rest of 10, all of 11 and unknown quantity of episode 12 dealing with Crowley, Cain. Abaddon and Garth.
ReplyDeleteI am so frustrated with the Sam wanting normal trope. it was pretty clear back in S6 that Sam knew that wasn't an option. The idea that Sam or Dean can have normal was worked out pretty effectively I thought at that point -- from Dean's experiences with Lisa and Ben to Sam articulating his desire to stick with Dean. I know that Singer likes the idea of Sam seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, and it's probably what led to the S8 reset, but it is an issue that keeps coming between them and preventing them from being the team they could be.
ReplyDeleteX
Again, the idea of Sam wanting normal is a reflection of his self-loathing imo. Unless Sam can be "purified" or comes to terms with what he is, he'll never have normal. He'll always carry that around inside him. Normal isn't something outside himself that he can attain. He's defining "home" as something that "normal" people have. In that way Dean is much healthier than Sam. He recognizes that home is with the people you love. That's why the bunker is home. As Sam pointed out in the Oz episode, he has no memory of a home with their mom and dad. He has no experiential concept of home.
we all knwo Dean would put Sam above anything and eveything thats not the issue, the issue is whether it is right or wrong to keep doing so? Is it right to keep Sam in an exsistence that clearly causes him endless pain and misery just for Dean's own need to have Sam breathing whether Sam wants it or not, whether Sam is actually living ot not, whether other people are hurt in the process or not? Dean might be doing it because he doesnt know any better but that doesnt make it right or fair on anyone else. Besides Dean may have been miserable with Lisa and Ben but that didnt stop him from staying in their lives even when Sam returned and we have seen that Dean is able to function just fine without Sam.
ReplyDeleteat the end of episode 8 (dont know that name ut its the one where Dean shagged a porn star) Sam does suspect there is something wrong with him after what the MOTW tells him about his insides being a mess but he doesnt think its anything to do with trials what he voices is a corncern that its just him, that there is just always something wrong with him because of who/what he is.
ReplyDeleteThere was a time when Sam had greater self-esteem, but that had been destroyed by the end of S8. That was pretty clearly what was going on and why Dean is finally sensitive to bolster Sam's self-esteem. I disagree that Sam was happy more than momentarily in the S8 flashbacks, and he was not really all right. Even Amelia's dad recognized how not all right he was. I can't imagine why anyone would think that Sam was any happier with Amelia than Dean was with Lisa. The evidence just isn't there. I think it's really questionable if Sam could have made it on his own after leaving Amelia if Dean hadn't returned. I still suspect that he intended to kill himself at the cabin when he went there. That's why in 9.01, the Bobby in Sam's head said that Sam knew what was in there -- Death.
ReplyDeleteI took it to mean that Sam suspected that Dean was lying to him but chose to ignore it because of Dean's speach to him in Sacrifice, Sam thought they would now be ok and on equal footing and he really wants to trust Dean but Dean's behavious wasnt adding up. I though Sam's look to Jody's words showed that he knew the relationship want what she was saying it was it want what it looked like on the outside because inside he knew that it was all a lie.
ReplyDeleteI'm saying it wasn't written "from" Sam's perspective because that would mean I was pretending to be Sam. Saying it was written with "a focus on Sam's perspective" means taking a closer look at what we know of Sam's perspective, his history, the events that have shaped him, etc. and applying that to the issues. Using my Dean example, if I were writing about a big choice facing him, I would examine how Dean would see the issue as well.
ReplyDeleteI was thrown by the sudden shift back to Sam wants normal again in season 8. I too had thought Sam had moved on. At this point, though, I'm just going with it and picking my battles. It's not the worst thing in the world that Sam's sees potential for a better future.
ReplyDeleteis it really that Sam wants normal or that he wants to feel normal? Because having everything including the kitchen sink thrown at you over your life time, having that horrible feeling inside that ou're not quite right since you were just a tiny kid would screw with you body mind and soul. Its quite clear to me through the few snippets of Sam we've had this season that its not a house, a wife, kida and 9-5 job that Sam's craving its simply to not have that feeling inside him that there is something wrong with him, 9.08 couldnt have been any clearer in that regard. If Sam believes that the only way he can achieve that feeling is to live a normal life with all the trimmings then thats his perogative. He had just as much right to want a home as Dean does and just as much right to experience it as Dean has. We know Sam's concept of family is differnt to Dean's because Sam has never had what we consider a family to be so he's never know that having a mum, dad and brother can feel just the same as having a brother, an angel, a car and prophet for instance. Not to mention that fact that Sam has spent his entire life loosing everyone around him and blaming himself for that and therfore distancing himself as much as he can from others so he doesnt get them killed, so he doesnt let them down. Sam doesnt have people he considers family ouside of Dean and Dean is one of the poeple he constantly feels like he's letting down.
ReplyDeleteOff course Dean is much healtheir in that regard than Sam is, Dean has had a few normal homes and he doesnt have demon blood running through his veins, not did he have pysic abilities, have the devil riding his meat suit, spend 150 years in Lucifers cage, or lose his soul, or experience hellucinations after having a wall blocking his memories of hell come down in his head, nor did he experience the pysical affects of the trials or have an angel possessing him without his knowledge and have random monsters telling him that his insides are being held together with saftey pins and duct tape. Its easy to see why Sam's perception of whats normal can be considered as unhealthy from an outside pov. People would have to experience Sam's ilife from his angel to know why Sam feels like he does instead of always being judgemental.
BTW Dean sees the Bunker as home as in a pysical representation of home, he has decorated his room, made himself at home in the kitchen and walks around in his bathroom and slippers. He was even disspointed that Sam didnt see it as home in that Sam hadnt moved into the room he was sleeping in. so I disagree that Dean see's family as home, when its clear the emphasis on why Dean considers the bunker as home has been completely pysical.
Oh please no. I have no problem with the boys having powers or using magic (they DO anyway) and pulling demons was the first time since like season 2 where they cared that they were killing lots of innocent people. It totally bugs me that they stopped caring about killing the people demons possessed.
ReplyDeleteBut the brother angst? Sam making decisions to get something done that Dean didn't approve of? Oh, no, that's not allowed. Dean is the only one who gets to make decisions. So what if giving his brother's body (how is that even allowed again?) to a d-bag angel is so much worse than taking demon blood for the good of like everybody. Nope, TPTB said it was wrong, and Sam (not ever Dean who broke the first seal) started the apocalypse. And he keeps playing penance for choosing to go after Lilith even though Dean didn't want him to--not for a good reason, just didn't want him to. Dean didn't know it was the final seal until it was too late. Stupid brother fighting and Dean is the boss power crap. That's that the demon blood story is. And Carver is only good at one thing, making everybody fight. So no, demon blood isn't the answer (it might be Carver's answer, but he's an idiot and his goal isn't to have a happy engaged fandom loving his show).
so you're saying that both Sam and John have screwed with Dean, that Dean has suffereed because of them?
ReplyDeleteAlso Dean thought that John looked at him differently after 'Something Wicked' that was just his view and not neccessarily true, considering Dean who was carrying around alot of guilt over that incident he could easily just have been reflecting his own feelings back on to John.
I agree it was messed up for John to tell Dean he might have to kill Sam but John didnt exactly have much choice did he, he had to pass the warning on tho Dean because he had just sold his soul so Dean could live and therefore wouldnt be around to kill Sam himself if it came down to it. Incidently as much as you considered that to have screwed Dean up what do you think it did to Sam when he was told that his father told his brother he might have to kill him?
Henry didnt know John as an adult, he didnt know the John we know he knew John as a little boy (probably smart, kind, loving, big dreams, brave or something of the likes?) so he was actually comparing Sam to the son he loved.
What affct soes Sam have on Dean that is the same as John and yes Sam is like his father in some ways he hasnt denied that in years, but sorry to break it to you but so is Dean and Dean probably has the same affect on Sam that John proably did with the controlling, the lying, making him feel less than he is. Also we're about to see how much Dean is like John (as Sam was so compared to John for the same reasons) as he embrks on trying to get revenge on Gadreel and Metatron for Kevin's death.
I agree that John wanted to keep Sam close to protect him because John obviously knew a lot more than he ever told the boys, what he did badly was not tell Sam the reasons he had for not wanting him to go to college or have a life outside of hunting with him and Dean because to Sam it would have looked like dissaproval, it would have looked like his dad didnt care. Dean didnt know the truth and saw Sam as being disloyal and selfish for wanting to go to school but John didnt feel like that at all he was just scared because of all he knew. John was proud of Sam for being his own man but that didnt stop him from being terrified for his safety and it didnt stop that fear from coming out in hurtful ways to Sam.
ReplyDeleteAmen!!! The problem is if you say ANYTHING about Sam that is not glowing, then people say you HATE Sam. I have loved Sam from day one, but he is not perfect and neither is Dean and wouldn't this be a boring show if that is all they were? But the writers totally messed up last year but not having Sam tell Dean I looked for you. All of this mess could have been cleared up. We were not shown Dean trying to get Sam out of the cage, but he did say he never stopped looking for a way. Anyway I agree with your comment.
ReplyDeleteSam was pysically storger on the blood but addiction weakens the mind (not the blood) and that is exactly what Ruby set out to do by keeping Sam on a short leash when it came to the blood. Overall Sam was still of sound mind, still smart, still strong up untill the addiction became an issue (gradually over the season/end of the season). It wasnt until Ruby started to withold blood from Sam so she could ensure she had him right where she wanted him that Sam was shown to be weak.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the blood part but not The Grand Canyon part as Dean said he was just a kid when they were there not that Sam's memory was wrong. Its is just as possible that Dean didnt remeber that he had actually been to the GC when he was a kid because he was too young to remember it and Sam was able to now remeber it despite being even younger when it happened because of the new found clarity he was experiencing.
ReplyDeleteWhat Sam said was he let Lucifer out and had to put him back in, not that he alone started the Apocalypse. He did let him out, but he did not know that was what killing Lilith would do, he thought he was stopping it.
ReplyDeleteInitially, when Sam realized that he was the one going to do the trials (Dean was suppose to) I think it was a chance for Sam to redeem himself to Dean. For taking off for a year and for all the other stuff that he felt guilty for. Now, I don't see that same sense of needing that redemption. He also has lost a lot of his...self. Less empathy, less humor, just less Sam.
ReplyDeleteBut letting Lucifer out was what started the Apocalypse so the two things go hand-in-hand.
ReplyDeleteI just want to forget season 8 ever happened. lol
ReplyDeleteAgree, but if Dean had not broken the first seal in Hell, Sam would not have been in the fix he was in. So they BOTH had a hand in the Apocalypse and Dean had said that several times.
ReplyDelete"Its quite clear to me through the few snippets of Sam we've had this
ReplyDeleteseason that its not a house, a wife, kida and 9-5 job that Sam's craving
its simply to not have that feeling inside him that there is something
wrong with him, 9.08 couldnt have been any clearer in that regard. If
Sam believes that the only way he can achieve that feeling is to live a
normal life with all the trimmings then thats his perogative."
-- That appears completely contradictory. I mean look, pretending that he is normal will never erase that stain he perceives he has. That's my point. He needs to deal with who and what he is.
I think you're missing my point here. If Sam had been truly happy with Amelia, I'd say that his idea of normal was great, but he clearly wasn't. That's in part because he still didn't have Dean -- same as Dean with Lisa. Sorry, but I don't see the boys as being happy or at home without one another. Sam pointed out in the Oz ep that he'd tried having a home and it never worked out. I think that is in part because what he's trying to construct isn't realistic. As he told Fred in Hunteri Heroici, it can be nice living in a dreamworld but reality always destroys that. He knows intuitively that "normal" isn't his reality.
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And I disagree that why Dean thinks the bunker is home is completely physical because we see Dean repeatedly caring for Sam in little ways -- pouring him drinks, making him hamburgers and stew, getting DVDs for them to watch together. What Dean was trying to do was make a home for them both. He loves Sam and has tried since LARP and the Real Girl to do things to make Sam happy.
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I don't know, if you think that Sam running from who and what he is and pretending to be something he isn't is objectively healthy, or will make him content in the long run, then okay. But I have to wonder what will happen when a monster or another hunter who still blames Sam for the apocalypse comes along and harms the person/people who are unwittingly living with The Sam Winchester. Sam learned from watching Dean's experience with Lisa and Ben that they will always be a danger to the people around them, and I've was disappointed that S8 didn't address that issue.
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I'd like to think that the whole point of the bunker and the Men of Letters is for Sam to eventually see that he has a place there and that he and Dean can make a home together -- that they can deal with their issues and build a stronger relationship. They are stronger together than apart. I do think the narrative is going to address the demon blood issue. It needs to, so that Sam can be cleaned of it or realize that it doesn't make him an inherently bad person. I want to see Sam deal with his issues instead of running from them and hiding in "normal." Sorry, I just don't buy that it will make him happy. The past doesn't indicate that it will.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think that Sam's thinking was clear at that point in the episode at all. Ben Edlund knows canon, and he knows that Sam and Dean have never been to the Grand Canyon as well as fans do. I think Dean was just going along with what Sam was saying because he thought Sam was hallucinating again due to his illness. He was so fevered after all that Dean immersed him ice water. High fevers can cause delusional thinking that seems very real. My grandfather saw the devil shaking his bed when he had pneumonia. I just don't buy that at four years younger Sam remember something that significant if Dean didn't.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that people take the Dumbo line at face value. The first rule is "demons lie" and Ruby had good cause to try to make Sam believe that all of his choices were his own, not influenced by his addiction. After all, he still had one more big choice to make, saying yes to Lucifer. So undermining Sam's belief in his ability to make the right choices is not a bad strategy. As far as Ruby knew, Sam and Dean had split. Dean would not be part of the equation and Ruby would be manipulating Sam until he said yes. She thought she would still be a factor in what came next, not that Dean would kill her. An emotionally damaged Sam, needing demon blood without Dean around or even better with Sam believing Dean wants him dead gives Ruby a LOT of power over Sam to help him make the "right" choices. So she immediately denied that her blood had anything to do with his choices, and everything to do with the fact that Sam himself made all of those choices, uninfluenced by anyone or anything else.
ReplyDeleteright got ya, there are a lot of articles ut there already focused on Dean though its rare we ever get a chance to discuss anything Sam related.
ReplyDeleteThat was exactly what Sam saw the trials as, he was taking them on as way to make it up to Dean and I believe he did want to stop Dean from a suicidal mission and show him the light but as the trials progressed and Sam go pysically more worn down and emotionally more open we saw it was about something much deeper and important. Sam deffinately carries a lot of huilt around with him he just doesnt get to talk about his feelings or express his guilt like Dean does, Sam is a much more internal person he buries his feelings and gets on with the job where as Dean's feelings are much more prone to explode from him through bouts of anger, violence and via other extrovert manners.
ReplyDeleteI agree Sam has lost a lot of what made him the person he was but that person has been beaten down in everyway possible into a shell of what he used to be. If he wants normal he's told he's wrong and selfish for wanting it, if he acts on something he's told it is the wrong action, if he doesnt act he's told he is wrong for not doing so, its like a never ending list. Not to mention the writers are no longer writing Sam as person in his own right but only as a plot device who has things happen to him but is never affected by those things on an emotional level. When it comes to humour Sam isnt usually allowed lines in an episode that dont relate to the research side of the case so one so one liners seem like a push, having a laugh is nigh on impossible and having a life that doesnt involve his brother, a drink or a book a complete joke.
not sure he went to the cabin to kill himself but I do think he would have gone back to hunting and down that till the job killed him which could have been pretty soon given his state of mind.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Sam was notshown as happy while with Amelia, nor was Amelia shown as happy with Sam. They were really just two sad people who had lost someone they loved now clingingonto each other for dear life. Amelia's father certainly saw that and even Sam knew that he had been living a kind of dream to escape from his sad reality. I dont doubt there would have been moments of happiness just like I dont doubt there would have been real moments of happiness for Dean when he was with Lisa and Ben.
and there in lyes the theme of this season making descions without thinking about the consequences. Dean, Cas, Gadreel, possibly Crowley and maybe even Sam are being tought that their actions no matter their reasoning do have consequences. Dean made the rash descion of allowing an angel to possess Sam at the beginning of this season to save him but ultimately didnt think of the consequences of this ation. Now he has to face up to the fact that his brothers body has been highjacked and Kevin is dead thanks to the descion he made. Will Dean be so rash in making the next desion to save Sam's life? Yes he will but he will also have to feel the full consequences of his actions in doing so and something tells me it wont be pretty.
ReplyDeleteI agree w/what you're saying in that they both had a hand in the Apocalypse, but I disagree w/your other statement. I honestly cannot recall a single time where - in S5 - Dean said they were both to blame for the Apocalypse. I pretty much saw Sam take sole responsibility for it.
ReplyDeleteIt is entirely possible that Dean did say he was to blame as well, but I can't think of a time when he did. S5 was not a favorite so I have not re-watched that season multiple times. However, I do feel the Apocalypse was laid at Sam's feet and no one else's.
Agreed! I just read the episode descriptions of the next two episodes, and unfortunately, what I didn't want to happen is exactly what's happening. Actually, it's even worse b/c, as you said, Sam has NO reaction to what's happened to him. He doesn't run away or do much of anything except sit there. I figure Sam will be taking over Kevin's role in the show.
ReplyDeleteCastiel: Where is Sam?
Dean: Sam? He's resting in the back room. Getting Gadreel out of him took a lot out of him.
Castiel: Okay.
(end of the episode)
Castiel: How is Sam?
Dean: Oh, he's geeking out on the computer. He's fine.
Castiel: Okay.
Yeah . . . I read that very disappointing news! The episode descriptions for the next two episodes do absolutely nothing for me either.
ReplyDeleteIt appears Sam has no opinion or perspective on anything that has occurred. He's just in the bunker, doing nothing.
Sam doesnt see the pysicality of the bunker as a home but is more comfortable on the road (with Dean) so its seems like Sam probably sees home as family just as much as Dean does given that Sam places less value on pysical possessions than Dean does.
ReplyDeleteAs for my contradictory statement I absioltely feel that Sam thinks the only way he can get that feeling of normal that he craves is in living a normal life (white picket fence style) even though what he really needs is to feel normal within himself. But Sam isnt ever going to feel normal within himself unless he is completely clean of all demon blood, all supernaturally caused ailments and such and can feel that he is clean inside of himself for himself. Even then Sam's guilt over past mistakes may keep him from feeling completely normal within.
I dont think Sam's answer lies within 4 walls with a wife and kids and a 9-5 job because he has tried to live normal before and it hasnt worked out, its isnt meant to be. Does that mean Sam shouldnt strive to find normalacy any way he can get it? no. Maybe one day he will finally feel cleansed inside, feel normal inside and then he's be able to have normal on the outside too and have it stick. Untill Sam feels inside him that he is normal then he wont be able to have the kind of life he's been striving for because he'll just be faking it.
Both Sam and Dean lived a full year without anything coming after them, something came after Dean conviently right when he was needed back in the hunting game but nothing came after Sam at all. Also if being friends/family/loved ones to either Sam or Dean poses a risk to that persons life then why does Dean insist on having friends/family at all. Lets not forget that Charlie and Kevin both died this year while hanging around with the Winchesters, both were people Dean considered family. Does this not count in the lesson they were supposed to have learned or was the lesson just for Sam? Is it Sam who isnt supposed to have friends or family just incase he puts them at risk?
I for one do belive that Sam and Dean can be happy apart but for them to be happy in their seperate lives both needs to be happy within themselves (particularly Sam). I dont think Sam's destiny shpuld be accepting that he is a MOL, that is a job not who he is and the bunker represents the job to Sam which is why he doesnt see it as a home. I dont think Sam has found or even had the chance to explore what makes him happy and I would rather at the end of the series he go and find that thing than settle for being a MOL/hunter because that would make his brother happy. Or if it does eventually becime the thing that makes Sam happy then I'd like an explanation as to why not just a sudden shift to being ok with it just because Dean thinks he should be.
It can also be argued that Dean uses hunting as his running and hiding from reality, he claerly wants some kind of normalacy/samily but doesnt think he can have it so he hides behind hunting instead of dealing with his issues.
I have forgetten anything that happened after season 5 even though I did like some of the Sam scenes towards the end of season 8.
ReplyDeletehe will have something wrong with him again in episode 11 though if my predictions are correct that is only to serve as a plot device for the Cas/Gadreel/Metatron storyline. There is zero chance that Sam is actually damaged in anyway when Cas remeves the left over grace from Sam.
ReplyDeleteI did not say it was in season 5, can not point to the eps but at least 2 times he mentioned it, I think once to Bobby.
ReplyDeleteSadly there is every indication that the writers are completely totally uninterested in Sam's POV on anything, especially himself. I'll wait to see how it plays out, but right now I'm not seeing anything to look forward to.
ReplyDeleteAh, both ways seems pretty close to me, of course we can't be the characters, I didn't mean POV to be sth like authors use in a story or fanfic. But OK, I got your point.
ReplyDeleteSince WHEN is Dean the boss of anything? Sam has always done whatever he wanted! He may sometimes go along with Dean, but when he really wants to do something, he does it. Geez, the Dean haters only see what they want to see.
ReplyDeleteNo ., take that wrong accusation back! You say my words indicate that I do not love Sam, why, just because I
ReplyDeleteSorry, Dean just had his brother tell him that he was willing to die to prove to Dean he was good enough to him, that Sam had lower self worth than he thought and that was due to him seeing how Sam's confession was how he felt when he let Dean down and Dean turned to others. On top of that Dean had his angel best friend tell him he was turned into a human and then on top of that he had angels falling and the king of hell in his trunk.
ReplyDeleteHe didn't see Sam wanting a peaceful death, he saw that he had driven Sam to the point where he was in the situation he was going to die and Sam had told him he was partly responsible for him feeling that. Dean didn't see the whole discussion going on in Sam's head, he saw a snippet not to mention he had everything else going on around him.
I'm not saying it was the best call, but Dean going with the Zeke option is understandable, he was overwhelmed and feeling guilty that he had driven his brother to that. He was being human!!!! Someone gives you the option to keep a family member alive after a confrontation like the one in that church you'd grab onto it with both hands even if you aren't as codependent as the brothers because like it or not you do what is right for you even if they want to die - because you want to make it right and words aren't enough.
Also Sam is the innocent victim in Dean's obsessive hold over him completely robs Sam of himself. He is not a 5 year old who has fainted with a paper cut, he is a grown man who can take responsibility for his actions please god for once let him do that - you confess that you are suicidial because you let someone down to that person, you are dumping a load of guilt on that person, Dean barely held it together when Sam jumped in the hole and Sam had not said he was directly responsible for his thinking in that one, imagine what it would do to him if Sam died because of the trial after being told Sam was prepared to lose his life because this time he didn't want to let his big brother down. You tell someone to drop the hurt of you letting someone down you cause a lot of resentment in that person, you complain that someone went to someone you don't like instead of them, you cause that person to become codependent on you just so they keep the peace.
Both brothers are as bad as each other with regard to them acting irrationally and selfishly. If Sam is to get back a lot of the character he had in the beginning, pre the demon blood revelation it is time he is allowed to get to a point where he takes as much responsibility for that as Dean does. We have a tendency to see Sam's faults and personality being tied into the Demon blood and Lucifer's manipulation. Sure that plays a part, but as Ruby told him once she gave him a feather but really it was all him, it is Sam's perceptions that are completely screwed.
He wasn't being rejected by his family because of the blood in his veins he has always pulled away from his family because Demon blood or not he is able to make his decisions. Even if he feels his family rejected him on a base level or he didn't fit in because of the demon blood in his veins on a practical level Dean, John and Bobby protected him more than anyone else from it because Dean was taking shooting lessons from six, it wasn't until Sam was 12 he was pulling people out of buildings.
Yeah, I think many were being very paternalistic about the Suzy encounter. She was a grown woman who decided to break her own personal vow and have sex. What's the problem w/that? Dean, in no way, forced or intimidated her into having sex w/him. She initiated the actual sexual encounter. As you said, she could have tossed Dean out, but she didn't. She chose to have sex w/him. I think Dean would have come off more sleazy if it was a sex addicts group.
ReplyDeleteI also understand the analogy people are making w/the use of the word "rape," but that is a loaded word that shouldn't be tossed around lightly. I don't necessarily think what Dean did in the premiere was right, but I am not bothered by it. Like you, I think Dean should have gone ahead and told Sam what he had done. If Sam chose to reject Gadreel, then that would be Sam's choice that Dean would just have to accept.
You're probably right unless they make him sick again so his absence is makes more sense.
ReplyDeleteHere's where I have to state that the only reason we think Sam wants NORMAL is because THAT'S WHAT DEAN SAID. Sam replied he didn't want normal, he wanted SAFE. But Dean said Sam wanted normal and keeps repeating it (maybe because Dean wants normal) so what Sam actually said he wanted gets forgotten. So for this moment I'm going to assume that Sam actually knows what he wants and that Dean might be wrong. To be fair Meg, the one person who knew what he thought because she possessed him, stated that he hated creepy things like her, so I do think there is some indication that Sam really does want safe and not living with hunting in any form and "normal" or at least living in a non-hunting world is the best way for Sam to get that.
ReplyDeleteI think that what Sam really wants is OUT and if I'm right, then the MOL bunker may well not be far enough out. He doesn't want to deal with or even think about the creepy things that are out there. It may not be a realistic hope, but people want things they can't have all the time. It may mean that he isn't protecting the world, but policemen and firemen are allowed to retire and never look at a crime or go to a fire again. Soldiers who came back from wars are not required to study what is going on in that war and look at new, unknown atrocities. Sam has given more than enough to the fight. If Dean wants to continue hunting great! He made it abundantly clear that he doesn't trust Sam and never will so WHY he wants Sam with him remains a mystery to me. But I do believe that Sam should have the choice to leave, something Dean stopped when he tricked Sam into accepting Gadreel.
It's really a shame, isn't it? And people wonder why we call Sam a plot device!
ReplyDeleteBut like you said, I'll wait to see how it plays out but I'm not getting my hopes up for any special attn paid to Sam's POV. I'm not getting the feeling the writers care about Sam's POV. I haven't felt they've cared for along time now. They probably dropped the suicidal thing as well.
Oh well. This season is not really coming together yet for me. I don't know what the overarching story is, or if there is even an overarching story. What's the story this year?
No, take that lie back@! Your'e accusing me of not loving Sam why, just because I don't like how he treated Dean last year? Or because I defend Dean against the accusations by all of you here, who seem to always be putting him down? Or because unlike all of you here, I don't think Sam is perfect?
ReplyDeleteI didn't distort ANYTHING, willfully or otherwise. I dont' choose to think the worst of Sam. Sam was shown last year to stop caring about anybody but Amelia, and yes, to me and many others, he DID treat Dean like crap. But I forgot, if one doesn't love EVERYTHING about Sam, automatically they don;t like him. How dare we EVER call Sam out on anything wrong he does?! The nerve! Let's forget that I also call Dean out for his crap, but of course, it's always ok to if it's Dean. Just NEVER say a word about Sam's less than honorable behavior, because of course if you do that, you don't like Sam.
Well I'm sorry it displeases you, but Sam's behavior was neither honorable or loving last year. Just like Dean's actions this year are beyond the pale to me as well. But then of course, on this site, putting down Dean is always fine and dandy.
Oh . . . well . . . S5 is what counts (at least to me) b/c that's when the Apocalypse was started and when it was addressed by all the characters. In S4, they didn't know anything about the Apocalypse. I don't even recall them mentioning it past S5, but I could be wrong. That girl this year blamed Sam.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I guess we can just ATD on this point. I cannot recall any incidences past S5 where anyone but Sam was blamed for the Apocalypse, and you cannot point to the episodes where Dean blamed himself. We're at an impasse it seems :-)
You and I usually disagree on most things. It's refreshing that you actually seem to realize that I DON'T love everything Dean does, that it's NOT just Sam's actions that I sometimes have a problem with. And I agree, although I didn't like how Sam acted last season, I also know that it WASN'T Sam. You're right, it was OOC. Just like Dean saying that Benny had been more of a brother to him. For everybody' information, I HATED when Dean said that, I also hated Dean's text, and the fact that he brought up Sam being souless, something that was NOT Sam's fault, and something that Dean even told Sam back then wasn't his fault.
ReplyDeleteReally, I just plain hated season 8. period.
You keep saying that Sam cared more for Amelia than Dean, but you won't give an example. When was that supposed to have been? He wasn't looking for Dean prior to meeting her, and his relationship with her had ended before Dean returned. Later, as I pointed out in my comment, when he had to make a choice between them, he chose Dean, but like Dean, you choose to think that Amelia had something do with Sam not looking for Dean. She didn't.
ReplyDeleteAs for treating Dean like crap, I'd say the treated each other like crap. Dean was hurt that Sam didn't look for him and didn't want to hear the reasons why. He lashed out at Sam repeatedly for it. Sam thought Dean was dead. I think it's a shitty excuse, but that's what Carver gave us and we have to go with it. Carver should have shown what happened to Sam prior to meeting Amelia but he apparently wanted fans to think the worst of Sam as you do. Sam's reasons for resisting going back into hunting were complex, and he was insensitive to Dean's feelings. Neither of them were honorable or loving in the first half of S8.
But I've had enough because you don't actually listen to what I say. I very clearly said that saying Sam cared more for Amelia than Dean was distorting the truth. Unless you can give concrete evidence why that isn't true, then I have to stick with that assertion. I never said you didn't like him btw. Disagreeing about what a character did doesn't mean you hate him. I don't understand this knee-jerk histrionic reaction fans have to criticism of characters. Criticism does not equal hate. Both Sam and Dean have faults and make mistakes.
I really think you're misunderstanding, I'm not aware of such articles, I don't go to fan sites, I don't need fan fight about fictional characters, and frankly I don't expect to read such articles here in spoilertv, for any characters. POV is OK but not what you're implying.
ReplyDeleteI merely said I'd like to read chris' future articles too, as a courtesy, whatever they're about.
I don't think anyone accused anyone of hating Sam or Dean. Debaters have to defend the evidence for their arguments, not just assert things like "Sam cared more for Amelia than he did for Dean." Where's the evidence that's true?
ReplyDeleteI agree that the writers could have had Sam say he looked or they could have shown how he broke down between Dean's disappearance and meeting Amelia. The fact that they didn't leads me to believe that they intended for fans to take Dean's side at the beginning of the season in vilifying Sam as many did. I think it's interesting that the boys were both pretty ugly to one another, but fans still side with Dean. The writers did a crappy job of showing Sam's motivations or feelings, and a lot of fans didn't try. Of course, Dean had reason to be hurt and angry. No one says he didn't. Obviously, the writers' goal was to create conflict for the sake of conflict between them so that Sam would be pushed to completing the trials even if it killed him.
Sam never said he was being rejected by the blood in his veins but that he wanted 'safe' and neither John or Dean understood that but rather saw him going to college as a rejection of them and their 'family business' which in reality it never was.
ReplyDeleteThe possession is a sl that opens up many issues , it is not a case of understandable , we cannot keep being understanding of Dean's actions and then refuse to do the same for Sam. Understandable is not the point , it is the question of right and automony and who has the say of someones body and what happen's to it. If the demon blood was hypothetically brought back the question would have to be how and the meaning for Sam .
the writers did have Ruby telling him once she gave him a feather but really it was all him
ReplyDeleteYes, but demons lie, and Ruby did poison Sam. She did get him addicted and manipulate him. She influenced his decisions and at least once withheld blood to get him strung out and more willing to do what she wanted.
I completely agree that I'd like to see Sam get some balls again, but the writers have been using him for a punching bag for so long I don't know how they can do that or if they are even willing to. I'm not even sure how they'd go about it. It's difficult to see how he'll get his confidence or self-worth back at this point.