Supernatural returned from hiatus with “Road Trip” written by Andrew Dabb and directed by the inimitable Robert Singer. This was one of the strongest episodes yet this season and featured fantastic performances from Jensen Ackles, Mark Sheppard, Misha Collins, Jared Padalecki, Alaina Huffman, and Curtis Armstrong. There was a lot of pay off in this episode from seeds planted in earlier episodes and seasons, and there was evidence of how these characters have grown and changed.
The episode begins with Dean (Ackles) giving Kevin Tran (Osric Chau who is universally missed both on set by cast and crew and on screen by fans) a proper hunter’s funeral. We get the by now familiar shot of Dean’s devastated face through the flames and almost exact mirror of Dean through the flames of his father’s pyre. This was a scene that I know I felt cheated out of after the death of Bobby, and it helped to ease the pain of Kevin’s loss somewhat. It’s also an interesting juxtaposition if one considers Dean’s role in Kevin’s life to be as a guardian or father figure to him – Dean has now “buried” both his father and his son. Just as Dean took his anger and grief out on the trunk of the Impala in “Everybody Loves a Clown,” here Dean’s anger and grief trash the bunker.
The episode gives us a lot more insight into Gadreel. Padalecki does an excellent job as always doing double duty portraying both the angel Gadreel for most of the episode and Sam as well. Gadreel is still doing Metatron’s (Armstrong) bidding to prove his loyalty. Gadreel is happy to kill Thadeus, an angel currently occupying a Justin Bieber-like musician, who tortured Gadreel in prison. Armstrong is terrific as Metatron barely tolerates Gadreel and manipulates him. The question of the next prophet is also answered as Metatron reveals that he’s “flipped a switch” that will ensure there are no more prophets, which, of course, means that even if they can get the tablets back, they will have no way to decipher them.
There is a nice shout out back to Metatron’s love of stories when he tells Gadreel that they are writing their own epic story – and sometimes that means you have to kill your darlings. It almost felt as if Metatron was stepping into Chuck’s shoes as a foil for the writers themselves and their remorse over killing Kevin. Metatron is annoyed that Gadreel didn’t show any initiative and didn’t kill Dean when he had the chance.
Metatron continues to test (or further torture) Gadreel and next sends him to kill his best friend, Abner (Dan Payne). Gadreel tells Abner that he got their revenge for them. Abner, however, has forgiven those who hurt him. He tells Gadreel that the key to happiness is getting the one thing that you want and never letting it go. Ironically, this seals Abner’s fate as the one thing Gadreel wants is to clear his name and earn his place back in Heaven.
Cas is “back in the game” as Dean puts it. Interestingly, he’s wearing what’s become his signature angel outfit. He has a new trench coat – which looks to be a much better quality than his old one! He also appears to have a much nicer suit and has ditched his blue tie. This is actually fitting as it sets him apart from the other bureaucratic angels in suits.
Singer always seems to get the best work out of Ackles and there are a number of strong emotional scenes in the episode. Dean is ready to kill Sam if it is the only way to kill Gadreel. Cas convinces him to talk to Crowley about using the same techniques Crowley used on Alfie.
The episode is full of great one liners and zingers from Mark Sheppard’s Crowley. Sheppard further layers Crowley in this episode. Interestingly, he refuses Dean’s offer of his own blood, looking instead for Kevin’s. It makes me wonder what it was that was special about Kevin’s blood – was it because he was a prophet or something else? There is just a flicker of a moment after Cas tells him Kevin is dead that Crowley looks truly moved over it. He then reiterates what he’s said to Dean before. That he warned Kevin to get away from Dean because people close to Dean ended up dead. We see by the end of the episode that Crowley’s words at a time when Dean is feeling guilty over Kevin and Sam have a profound effect on him.
I loved seeing Crowley, Cas, and Dean set off on their road trip – in Cas’s “pimp-mobile.” Dean has rightly deduced that the reason the car stopped “inexplicably” is because it ran out of gas. Apparently working at a Gas 'n Sip didn't teach Cas much about cars. Watching Crowley and Cas fight over shotgun and then Dean putting them both in the backseat and having to make them behave was hilarious! I also loved Cas standing up to Crowley and telling him he was going to “be the one to carve out his heart” when Crowley betrayed them. Cas is definitely more in touch with his emotions.
Crowley manages to get all the information he needs to get up to speed. He takes Dean and Cas to one of his operative, Cecily (Brenna O’Brien). Fun fact – O’Brien is actually Jeremy Carver’s assistant. Cecily confesses to Crowley that she’s playing both sides, waiting to see whether Abaddon or Crowley come out on top. As the consummate opportunist, Crowley respects and appreciates her initiative, but Abaddon kills her for her disloyalty. This nicely highlights the difference in the two. Huffman infuses Abaddon with a sexual presence and a barely contained glee as she kills Cecily.
Cecily is easily able to track the Impala and lead them to Gadreel. I loved Crowley calling the Impala, Dean’s phallus on wheels – LOL! Gadreel has already killed Abner by the time the "three amigos' arrive, but Cas takes Gadreel down with one punch - it was satisfying to see Cas back in fighting form.
Gadreel has worked closely with Dean and for all he says, I wonder if Gadreel has developed some feeling for Dean. He doesn’t think to just kill him as Metatron suggests he should have. He also knows that Dean doesn’t have it in him to let Sam die for any reason, let alone put an angel blade through his heart. Gadreel also soothes Dean with the knowledge that Sam is locked in a dream inside his head and isn’t suffering.
Even though it isn’t Sam, Dean is deeply disturbed by Crowley’s torturing Gadreel. Dean retreats and takes the opportunity to apologize to Cas for kicking him out of the bunker – something that bothered a lot of viewers. Dean confesses he got played, but Cas is quick to forgive and draw a parallel to his own experience being “played” that Dean was not nearly as quick to forgive. Cas’s emotions also come to the fore in this scene and even moreso on learning that the angel possessing Sam is Gadreel. In fact, Cas completely gives in to his anger when he calls him a son of a bitch and accuses him of ruining the universe.
Ultimately, of course, Crowley is able to buy his complete freedom by offering to possess Sam to get him to eject Gadreel. Cas can’t do it because he has to be invited in, and Dean has him burn off Sam’s anti-possession tattoo. I wonder how quickly he’ll get it redone? Crowley also learns Sam and Dean’s safeword: Poughkeepsie – that means drop everything and run. I have to wonder if he can use that in future to his advantage too. Great continuity and VFX on the show’s part, and we see once again that Crowley, unlike the other demons, smokes out red.
Crowley is actually the perfect one to send in to get Sam. As he points out, he knows how possession works. It’s interesting that Crowley quickly absolves Sam from any guilt over Kevin’s death when Sam remembers it, telling him that Gadreel killed Kevin, not Sam. Was he taking pity on Sam or furthering his own interests? Sam might be less likely to take his life back if he doesn’t feel worthy. Crowley was quick to blame Dean after all – but that helped to motivate Dean to do what Crowley wanted. It was great to finally see Tahmoh Penikett back to take up Gadreel again. Armstrong is starting to rival Sheppard for the great lines as he says, “Let me guess. Winchester trouble?” as Gadreel returns.
Gadreel underestimates Crowley when he calls him a coward. Crowley doesn’t run from Abaddon after all. Sheppard’s little neck crack telegraph’s Crowley’s readiness to start his campaign to regain Hell. I suspect that Crowley knew right from the beginning what it was going to take to free Sam but he stalled until he could gather intel. He also schools Abaddon, telling her that they aren’t in a fight, they are waging a campaign. Crowley knows that you win more people to your cause with incentives other than fear.
The final scene of the episode sees the brothers finally confront each other. Sam is angry at Dean for lying to him and allowing a psychotic angel to possess him when he was ready to die. In some ways, this feels like the show is continuing to beat a dead horse, but the end of the argument gives me hope that we may be working towards a new understanding between the brothers. Dean refuses to let Sam take any blame for Kevin’s death and reveals that Crowley’s words from the beginning of the episode have really had an impact on him. He tells Sam that he’s tainted and poison and that he’ll make it right by going after Gadreel on his own. Dean tells Sam that he’s not going to drag anyone else through the muck with him. Sam tells Dean to go, but also tells him that that’s not the reason. Sam’s final words are somewhat cryptic – Dean asks him to clarify, but Sam just sends him away. I’m hoping when Sam does clarify what he meant, we will finally see some actual growth between these two characters. Cas watches and is obviously upset for Dean, but also lets him leave without a word. Cas, of course, is going to stay with Sam to continue to heal him.
Lots of seeds were planted in this episode. Clearly, we’ll be seeing Metatron and the angels vying for dominance as well as Abaddon and Crowley facing off over Hell. I’m betting Sam and Dean are back, at least working together by the end of the next episode. Were you upset to see the brothers split again? Do you think Crowley is going to keep injecting human blood and do you think it’s made him less ruthless? Did Cas seem to retain some of his humanity as well? Let me know your thoughts in the comments below!
Supernatural 9.10 "Road Trip" Review: A Demon and an Angel Walk Into My Brother...
15 Jan 2014
Reviews Supernatural
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I would like to add to your review...Classic rock in first scene was AWESOME.
ReplyDeleteThe brothers splitting has happened so much every season I'm completely indifferent to it.
ReplyDeleteOther than that, great episode, I've always loved Crowley, but I forgot just how much after watching this episode. Abaddon is bad ass too. I hope this angel stuff concludes by seasons end, and season 10 focuses on the war for king of hell. Abaddon and Crowley could do with more screen time.
When Crowley warned Kevin, he told him to stay away from 'the Winchester', not just Dean, but now w/ how things turned out, Dean takes it all on himself.
ReplyDeleteCrowley seemed sincere in trying to eject Gadreel, I don't think he was intentionally stalling there.
I liked the brothers talk, for once after a long time there wasn't shouting, extreme anger or childish running; they were controlled and mature.
I kinda felt pity for Gadreel, he really doesn't want to hurt anyone, miserable misguided guy, but when he killed his life friend for his own sake he showed he has it in him to be a real villain.
Overall, great episode; Crowley was fantastic, I really liked the trio teaming up, it was unbelievable, hilarious and unforgettable.
Yes... but I lean more towards Kripke's taste than Carver's in what defines "classic" - still MUCH better though...
ReplyDeleteI agree on all counts! I think Dean and Sam will be back together by next episode and back on the same page emotionally in 3 at the outside. YES, so much YES to more of Crowley and Abaddon. How badly does Crowley need his own show? Wow - is anybody smart enough to realize the spin off should be about him?
ReplyDeleteI'm completely blanking on the episode, as I was when I wrote this, but Crowley has said exactly the same thing to Dean before - specifically Dean. I really liked how much insight we got into Gadreel. His only interest is in regaining his position in Heaven and he doesn't care what the price is he needs to pay. He's a great counterpart in his complete lack of humanity with how much Cas has changed due to his proximity to humanity...
ReplyDeleteMark Sheppard is simply superb!
Agree with you there, Kripke music was better.
ReplyDeleteEveryone knocked it out of the park in this episode. Jensen, Mark, and Misha especially. Is Crowley joining Team Free Will? I doubt it. But he sure is fun to watch.
ReplyDeleteBack in Season 3, Dean was ready to die but Sam wouldn't let him. He trusted Ruby, a demon, to save Dean. So how can Sam not understand why Dean would do this?
ReplyDeleteBack in season three, Dean was 'ready' to go to Hell, where he would be tortured. However, Sam knew that it was all bravado so how could Sam accept that? And Dean did want to live after all as after a time he was okay with Sam trying to get him out of the deal.
ReplyDeleteIn season three Sam was willing to accept her help to save Dean, he didn't say he trusted her. And Dean knew all about it. Sam didn't try to sneak a demon into Dean unknownst to him.
When Sam talked about how he'd been ready to die and how he was pissed; as much as I don't agree with Dean's actions I wanted to smack Sam up the side of the head.
ReplyDeleteMay I ask why you were pissed?
ReplyDeleteBecause as Bobby said if your time go. If Sam was truly ready to die, accepted it was his time etc when 'Dean' appeared to him he had the power to say NO. As Cas said an angel needs permission, Dean may have opened the door for Gadreel but Sam in the end had to unkowingly or not let him and why? Because Dean appeared to him and said he had an idea to save him.
ReplyDeleteThe co-dependence thing is two way, not just one and last season didn't break Sam of his side of it.
Well I guess you a have point, being ready to die is no excuse to just let go and die when life is your right, especially after he called Dean wrong on seeing no light and promising him to take him to the light at the end of the tunnel in Trial & Error, and after they chose each other in Sacrifice.
ReplyDeleteI just want them to have more self-esteem and fight for their own happiness too, here in this world, they deserve a happy long life. Going after the easy answer, to die, is not what I expect from my heroes.
I think he was understanding somehow, he was way calmer than what I expected, he seemed more shocked by all this, and hurt for being lied to, but I think he understood why Dean did this. Maybe we get more of his thoughts in next episode.
ReplyDeleteAnd didn't Sam do the trials because he wanted to live and felt it would just be a suicide mission for Dean? I mean, that was the whole reason why he said he would do them.
ReplyDeleteI can't get my head around it either. Even just the basic, have you met Dean aspect of it. We all know Dean can't stand to be alone and that family is everything to him.
ReplyDeleteSomething they completely disregarded...
ReplyDeleteThe one weak element of the episode was Sam's last comment. It was completely cryptic and impossible to get any kind of a read on what he meant by it.
ReplyDeleteYeah, the usual Sam, you have no way but to guess what is in his mind. I just hope it gets to address later.
ReplyDeleteSo this is Sam's fault ? he could of said No but he did not because Dean was standing in front of him using every emotion going to get Sam to say yes.
ReplyDeleteI really, really enjoyed last night's episode right up until the last scene. I was disappointed that the brothers are made to split up once again. Though admittedly, it was done with the shouting, etc. which was nice. I get that Sam is angry but I wish he'd reacted differently.
ReplyDeleteDean's grief at the beginning of the episode was heartwrenching. Jensen is, as always, a sight to behold. I continue to marvel at what he can convey without ever saying much of anything.
Jared also did a terrific job in his dual portrayal of Gadreel and Sam.
Cas, Crowley, and Dean on the way to and in the car was hysterical! Could not have loved that more. Mark Sheppard was on top of his game last night, delivering Crowley's lines with exquisite deliciousness. (Mark hinted that Matt Bomer from White Collar wants to do an episode of SPN--boy, I would love to see that happen.)
All in all, it was a strong episode and I am quite intrigued as to how the rest of the season is going to play out. There is still much to be explored.
Brenna O'Brien is also the woman who is behind the voice of "Rin" on Inuyasha. The english dub i mean.
ReplyDeleteThank you for proving my point. If Sam was so ready to die and was over the co-dependency then Dean being right in front of him trying to emotionally blackmail him wouldn't have made him say Yes so easily. He could have said NO, 'Dean' may have been piling on the emotion but he didn't have a hand up Sam's backside and getting that yes through a ventriloquist act
ReplyDeleteSam is a man in his thirties not a baby, lets just say it - he is as codependent as his brother, because he runs back to Dean when it hits hard or uses how Dean views him as a justification for things. He may recognise that he suffers from it more than Dean does but he still hasn't really addresses it.
I agree about the self esteem and having the ability to fight for their own happiness. But I doubt it.
ReplyDeleteIt is ashame because I don't think they will have Sam remember the home that Dean was in and finding out what Dean gave up in Bad Boys. Sam/Gadreel learned stuff about Dean in that one and now we don't know if Gadreel had put Sam in that Ghoul Cheerleader dream much earlier so causing him to miss out on seeing what his brother gave up.
But then it turned into Sam getting purified and then because he wanted to prove his worth to his brother and then a suicidal hissy fit because Dean had friends that weren't him.
ReplyDeleteThey didn't seem to be consistent on why Sam did the trials.
Oh don't worry, Sam was around until the end of ep9, he talked about his doubts in ep8 and missing things in ep9, and I'm sure it was Sam who thanked Dean at the end of Bad Boys.
ReplyDeleteIf he had encouraged Ruby to possess Dean, you might have a parallel. Frankly, I think Sam MIGHT have been able to deal with Dean dying, but Dean was going to Hell to be tortured for all eternity. AND, as Dean finally admitted, he didn't want to die. He made a stupid deal to save Sam, a deal Sam would never have accepted and he finally admitted he wanted out. Sam worked with Ruby in season three because for the most part she was actually being helpful, saving both the boys lives. Sam suggested using Doc. Benton's technique for immortality to keep Dean alive and Dean said no. Sam did NOT then drop the serum into Dean's coffee against Dean's will. Sam also didn't arrange it so Dean's body could be used for anything an unknown supernatural entity wanted.
ReplyDeleteSam had been possessed. He NEVER, EVER wanted that again and Dean ignored it. I actually understand Dean's first impulse to save Sam. But then Dean lied to Sam about what was happening to Sam's own body. He told Sam that Sam was a weakling who kept getting knocked out while his big, brave, competent brother took on THREE demons all by himself, unlike unworthy stupid Sam. He told Sam that he was knocked out by just about every monster they ran across and worked to undermine Sam's sense that he was a worthy hunter or brother. After knowing that Sam was willing to commit suicide because he failed Dean, Dean repeatedly told Sam that he was continuing to fail Dean by being weak and useless. He gaslighted Sam to keep him unaware of GadZeke. He told Sam who do you believe me or your lying eyes and this was after years of telling Sam that Dean is always right and Sam makes all the wrong decisions.
I know you want to totally absolve Dean of doing anything wrong, but what he did was monstrous in so many way.
Good review of the best episode in a while! Lots to like here--including your title. I do wish that we hadn't enede up yet again in Sam and Dean split and on the outs territory; that well has been revisited so many times, it's now dried up with the earth at its base cracked and hard.
ReplyDeleteThanks! I don't think it is ever possible to have enough Mark Sheppard. That said, I think the dialogue in this episode was particularly spot on! It's funny how much we love our villain, isn't it? I love Alaina Huffman, but I do so want to see Crowley best her.
ReplyDeleteThanks and agreed. My hope is that this split actually does lead to some movement forward in their relationship. Of course, it also begs the question of who gets custody of the "home"...
ReplyDeleteYou're welcome! I agree! I loved all the dialog, it pretty much made the episode for me. It really was dead on. Haha you know what's funny? I loved Crowley, then I loved to hate him, now i'm back to loviin him again. Hahah As for Abaddon, she's gotta go!! I didn't even love to hate her, i just hate her. LOL i want someone to kill her sooooo badly. Like i wanna see this bitch get her ass kicked! Nothing against, Alaina, she's awesome... I just loatheee Abaddon. I might be the minority on that, but idc. I'm ready for this fight to go down, and have her ass handed to her. lol
ReplyDeleteSam stays at the bunker, he isnt the one who left because he wanted to get revenge on Gadreel. That seems like the logical thing to happen. Also makes sense if Carver is to be taken seriously when he claims Sam is more a MOL and Dean is more a hunter regardless of whether Dean sees it as a home while Sam sees it as a place of work. Not that it matters because Dean will be back in the bunker either in episode 12 or at the end of episode 11.
ReplyDeleteI think this split will be the one that finally works in moving the relationship forward, the end of the co-dependancy based on what Jared has said in regards to Sam's side and what Carver has suggested is how they are moving forward.
unfortunatly
ReplyDeleteWho says that Sam doesnt understand? Sam just doesnt think other people should be hurt to save him, Kevin died because Dean was trying to save Sam. Sam told Death that he didnt want anyone else to get hurt because of him. If anyone doesnt understand its Dean.
ReplyDeleteso Sam is to just except that Dean is right in everything and that no matter what Sam wants regardless of who gets hurt what mess is made Dean has the right to do whatever he wants because its who he is?
ReplyDeleteIf he didnt want to be alone then why did he alienate everyone around him, lie to them and then walk away when it all blew up in his face?
He definalt understood, he just didnt agree it was the right thing to do as is his right. Sam told Death he didnt want anyone to get hurt because of him and guess what someone did, Kevin died because Dean chose to save Sam. Thats isnt going to sit right with Sam, its not in his nature to accept that someone elses life is so eaily forfeit just to save his own. I dont understand why thats so hard to understand, it who Sam is.
ReplyDeleteWhat, you wish they are apart for a long time!? But why would anyone want the brothers to be apart?
ReplyDeleteyou clearly dont get it, Sam was only ready to die because he couldnt see away out without someone getting hurt because of him. Thats what he said to Death, thats what Dean went against and thats why Kevin is dead. Its not about suicide its about not wanting others lives to be thrown under the bus just to save your own. What made Kevin's life any less important than Sam's? How many times is Dean going to let people die just to save Sam? How much more blood can Sam feel like he has on his hands?
ReplyDeletefor someone who doesnt like Sam at all you sure do hate that he might want to die?
ReplyDeleteso basically you think Sam should live because Dean gave up a home he wanted to stay at when he was a kid? Sam should just forget all the crap that has happened to him all he has endured, given up and just live because Dean wants him too, because Dean gave some stuff up for him and for Dean's happiness?
ReplyDeleteyou must be so disappointed, your spewing hate and blame but when Sam actaully might have the chance to go and leave precious Dean withut his life long ball and chain you get all up in arms about it? Where is the logic in that?
ReplyDelete-Sam also said that he didnt want anyone to get hurt hurt because of him
ReplyDelete-He trusted Dean had a plan that wouldnt mean a dead anyone let alone a dead Kevin
-He wouldnt have said yes to Dean/Gadreel if he thought Dean was tricking him into harbouring an angel.
Sam already expressly said at the beginning of the season that he didnt want anyone to get hurt because of him, he didnt want anyone to get hurt to save him. He was dying and he wasnt going to put Dean and anyone elses lives above his own, he want going to let someone (Dean) do something stupid just to save him, so he was willing to die and leave Dean alive because that was the right thing to do. It was where they were at the moment.
No I think I got it, when Bobby was encouraging him to die he was telling Sam sth along the lines 'you did your bit', 'you've done more than enough good in your life', 'it's time for you to rest',... like dying and giving up life is such a good prize. Not wanting to hurt anyone else came after he chose death, he didn't want a repeat of AHBL.
ReplyDeleteAnd at the time nobody knew Kevin was going to get killed, unknown consequences shouldn't prevent people to continue fighting.
where was it ever claimed or implied that Sam wasnt as co-dependant on Dean as Dean on him, who said he was the dependancy? You seem to be ignoring the fact that while Sam loves his brother and is as in the co-dependency as Dean is he also sees the bigger picture, in this case being that he didnt want anyone to get hurt because of him which is exactly what happened. Dean made a descion to save Sam which cost Kevin his life. Do you think Sam would want that? Would be ok with that? Because I clearly remember him saying to Death that that was not what he wanted. It shouldnt be his or Dean's lives at the cost of anyone elses, that goes against there whole lives work which is SAVING PEOPLE not SAVING EACHOTHER AT ANYONE ELSES EXPENSE.
ReplyDeletebut then he was dying and there he couldnt see a way out of without someone potentially getting hurt to save him, kinda changes the whole thing doesnt it?
ReplyDeleteJared playing two charatcers knowcked it out of the park twice over
ReplyDeleteOh and Crowley killed loads of people importnat to Sam and Dean so off course he should be part of Team Free Will.
Didnt I say that Dean fans would find a way to turn it all around so Dean kept his sainthood and Sam was the bad guy in the wrong again? How predictable.
ReplyDeleteIt really is time for Sam to be written off the show, the hate is just getting worse and the reasoning even more pathetic. Jared/Sam fans deserve better.
Careful @tvmonkey, we're trapping in the misunderstanding circle again! My post was all positive and hate free. @fazziemodo was doubtful about how long Gadreel was playing Sam and I brought up instances we're sure it was Sam in control not Gadreel.
ReplyDeleteI suggest you calm down and watch you temper, maybe you'll have less trouble getting what other people are saying.
If they use this as a springboard for Dean to look at how his need to control Sam is destructive then this could be the start of a real healing between the brothers.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with have you met Dean is that it acts as an excuse for when Dean behaves badly toward Sam by putting the burden on Sam to predict Dean's actions and excuse them. IRL it happens as well and on the low side of the scale is my brother-in-law makes racist slurs but have you met him he's always been racist; to you know your husband beats the crap out of you when you don't season dinner properly so you need to buck up and return home because have you met your husband. People behaving badly shouldn't get off because they have always behaved badly. At some point you have to realize that a line has been crossed and that they CAN change their behavior and you should not just sigh and accept it.
ReplyDeleteI'm not going to enter into the endless Sam v Dean debate. You clearly think that Sam can do no wrong. Family = Sam who will always come first and unfortunately for Sam he's the only real family (sorry Bobby) Dean has left.
ReplyDeleteAs I've said elsewhere, I'm not going to enter into the endless Sam v Dean camp. Not wanting to let your brother die is hardly equatable to being racist or beating your wife.
ReplyDeleteWow. You really manage to get a grip on Sam even though we _never_ get any insight into what he's thinking or feeling...
ReplyDeleteAnd FYI - that wasn't actually Bobby - that was a part of Sam's mind taking on what he thought Bobby would say.
ReplyDeleteOf course, it was all an inner struggle. And I think it was unfair to Bobby to be a presenter of the good of dying, the Bobby who wouldn't give up fighting even after death.
ReplyDeleteBut yeah, it was all in Sam's mind, even Julian Richie said he believed the Death Sam saw was a personification of dying and not Death himself, which I agree, otherwise it would be a blow to the prideful and arrogant personality of Death who wouldn't even bow to God.
But I enjoyed seeing both of them :-)
What's with the sweeping generalizations? I'm a "Dean fan" and I don't see Sam as the bad guy at all. And it's not like SAM is the one being called an abusive rapist, like Dean IS by some Sam fans...
ReplyDeleteSam feels betrayed and hurt and he's right to feel that way. Personally I don't think Sam actually did - or still does - want to die, but that's something Sam needs to explore and deal with. I'm also sad that Dean feels that he is poison to everyone around him. But with so many people getting killed and being harmed that he's close to, I do understand why Dean feels this way right now, and I understand why he felt he had to leave.
It's difficult to change what you see as the essential core of your being. And for Dean the core of his being is to be Sam's protector. It was something John instilled in young Dean, and because of John's stellar (/sarcasm) parenting, it became the building block of Dean's entire existence, and the basis of his entire self-worth. All because John put so much onto Dean's shoulders as such a young age.
No one here (that I've seen) said Dean is a "saint". Of course he's not. He's only human, and a very flawed human at that. Sometimes he really screws up and makes horrible decisions. But his desire to protect Sam no matter what isn't based on malicious intent IMO. He's already said back in Season 5 that they are each others' Achilles heel. So Dean knows this. It's just that this desire is so intertwined with Dean's core self, that right now, he cannot ever see himself not doing everything possible to protect/save Sam. He was willing to let the planet burn back in AHBL because Sam was dead and he failed to save him. Like it or not, that's who Dean is.
Now, will the writers actually take the time and effort to explore this very problematic aspect of Dean's characterization? I don't know. I certainly hope so, but, based on past history of the show, it seems the 2nd half of the season becomes focused on the mytharc storyline, which rarely involves Dean playing a key role. Maybe this season will be different and the writers will allow Dean to deal with, and perhaps even FINALLY overcome, this essential part of himself that feels he must protect Sam at all costs. Even let Sam die if that's what Sam wants. Dean desperately needs a redemption arc IMO, but that would be a writer's decision.
If you want to see character hate, just go to spnanonhaven on LJ. It's all Dean hate all the time. Have at.
lol! Well, Dean gets Baby, Sam gets the bunker, no?
ReplyDeleteNo I get it. I do. Firstly Sam being only ready to die because he could see a way out without someone getting hurt because of him isn't being ready to die. It isn't accepting death, it isn't accepting that it is your time. It is saying that this is the line that shouldn't be crossed to stay alive.
ReplyDeleteHead Bobby and Head Death were making him comfortable by telling him he had done enough to accept his death. That he had done as much as he could to prevent his death leading to anyone being physically hurt when he asked Death to keep anyone dying for him.
Secondly Sam was prepared to go if he no-one got hurt because of him. But how did Dean know that? How did either know that Kevin was going to end up in the firing line? They didn't experience should have told them both there was a price to any plan to keep Sam alive but at that point they didn't know.
Thirdly I have never said that Kevin's life was worth less than Sam's. Crowley and Dean both say that Sam shouldn't feel responsible for Kevin's death. That he is as responsible for it as he was for the death of that hunter in season 2 when possessed by Meg.
My point is that for all the pontificating, the head Bobby's talk about a legacy, head Death willing to listen to Sam's terms, Dean turns up and Sam says Yes to a plan he doesn't know the details of. That is my point. That Sam if truly ready to die, if truly ready to go, if truly got to a point he was comfortable with everything he'd done, his legacy - he could have said 'Dean enough, NO.'
I agree with this. but then, Sam and Dean both agreed to abandon the quest to shut the gates of Hell in order to try to save Sam's life, so, you know, the whole idea of putting others first pretty much got shot to ... well, Hell at that point.... (Admittedly, Dean was the instigator of that, but Sam did go along with it.)
ReplyDeleteActually I'm talking about actual ghost Bobby. When they burned his flask he told them that when it was their time just to go.
ReplyDeleteThat is why I thought they used him as the device to talk about dying to Sam.
Yes! Of course! Baby is their first home, after all!
ReplyDeleteNo I hate that he is saying he was ready to die but when his brother appeared and put a bit of emotional pressure on Sam's response wasn't what is the details or explaining that he is ready to go but to say Yes.
ReplyDeleteThat part has to be acknowledged too. Dean worked with Gadreel, Dean opened the door to Gadreel but Sam actually had a moment in which he could have prevented himself from having his agency taken away from him and that has to be acknowledged too. They are both codependent and that won't change unless both change. It won't get better until Dean sees himself as not responsible for everyone else decisions and Sam won't let Dean put him first in dangerous ways because until then Dean will continue to get butt hurt everytime Sam gets a paper cut and Sam will continually see himself as letting his brother down.
No. I think that Sam should remember that the way that Dean sees his life isn't simply because he never knew any different when growing up. That Dean had a chance of a normal life that actually worked and he willingly gave that up.
ReplyDeleteTo understand Dean's feelings of low self esteem the fact he had time out of hunting and away from his family and he chose to come back plays a factor too because in the end that will help Sam's self esteem too and could bring the brothers to a better understanding in a more mature way because they both had a kind of normal that worked for a while. Previously you always had the stumbling block where you had Sam pining for normal and feeling that Dean never fully understood what he was talking about - well turns out Dean does
Now wait a minute here! I couldn't hit a site last season where someone wasn't blaming Sam for not trusting Dean about Benny because Dean is stalwart and true and should be believed at every turn. Now you are saying that Sam is responsible for HIS OWN POSSESSION
ReplyDeletebecause he believed Dean because even though Dean is brave, stalwart and true and right about everything Sam should know the exact moment not to trust Dean.
You talk like Sam KNEW he was consenting to an angel, that he KNEW he was giving up agency. You resent Sam because he was willing to die and condemn him because he was willing to live. He TRUSTED Dean to not violate him and Dean BETRAYED that trust and betrayed Sam. And frankly, Dean all Dean is doing is calling himself poison instead of admitting that his actions were wrong. Dean isn't poison. His refusal to let Sam or Kevin know what was going on is what caused all of this not some intrinsic part of himself that can't be helped or stopped.
There has been a lot of talk about the co-dependence of the brothers and it is there, but last year Sam proved that he would not do ANYTHING to make Dean live. He was willing to let go and make whatever kind of life he could. And everyone was up in his grill about it. But breaking the co-dependence means letting go and Sam made that first step.
What I am saying Sam has to realise at some point he is responsible for giving Dean power over him. If he was truly ready to go why did Dean turning up mean he simply gave that up?
ReplyDeleteThat isn't truly letting go of the codependency.
So for YOU the only way for Sam to prove he isn't codependent is to go commit suicide?
ReplyDeleteThe Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in blood transfusions. They believe that the passage in the Bible that says people should not eat blood also means no transfusions, even to save their lives. We now have blood substitutes that are man made and are not human blood. JWs accept these measures to save their lives. If a JW had a disease that required weekly transfusions for months they would refuse them and be willing to die because that is their moral belief. If they were offered the blood substitute they would accept it. They are not accepting it because they are co-dependent, but because they want to live while still obeying what they believe God wants.
For some reason you think Sam can't POSSIBLY want to live just for himself, because he wants to be alive. Sam wanted to live, he just didn't see himself as having an option. He was DYING and Lord Knows he has seen the result of not accepting death all the way from The Woman In White to Bobby not accepting death leads to angry disturbed spirits and Sam wasn't willing to become an angry spirit, so he was willing and ready to die and move on. When "Dean" tells Sam that he has a way for Sam to live, Sam takes it because he wants to live FOR HIMSELF. He saw Dean burn Bobby flask, he knows Dean saw the result of a deal gone wrong. He has no way to even think that Dean will sell him out to an angel. To go back to the Jehovah's Witness example, it would be like the spouse (who shares the belief because they are also a Jehovah's Witness) of the patient telling them that they were being given blood substitute all the time knowing that they were actually getting blood transfusions. The patient believes their spouse because s/he knows they share the belief on transfusions. And the spouse is totally betraying the patient AND IT IS NOT THE FAULT OF THE PATIENT.
You seem to think that Sam couldn't possibly want to live because HE WANTS TO. You are ascribing Sam's saying he wants to live to co-dependence. I ascribe it to his liking being alive. He was NOT however willing to do it based on being possessed by an angel who later killed THREE people including his friend Kevin. To account for one theory even if he didn't kill Abner the angel, he most certainly killed the human vessel and Sam WOULD care about murdering a human, even an abusive one. After all he never advocated bumping off John and worked to stop Max from killing his stepmother.
I'm not saying Sam doesn't have co-dependence issues with Dean, but he has repeatedly tried to break out of that cycle and Dean proceeds to guilt and browbeat the CRAP out of Sam every time Sam tries to establish boundaries. Sam does need to learn to stand up to that. I'm hoping that Dean has finally crossed the line so that Sam can finally say enough we need to change the dynamic. Then they can build to a healthier relationship.
Well, it wasn't that difficult this time because it was one of the rare instances where Sam actually stated what he felt in the premiere. He very clearly told Death that he wanted to make sure he couldn't be brought back to cause any harm to anyone. Unlike other times we didn't have to guess his feelings because he stated them.
ReplyDeleteAt first, that line baffled me too but after giving it some thought I realized that Sam was talking about the real problem. Dean seems to think the problem is he is poison to everyone around him, but that's not the problem. Sam knows the problem is Dean's willingness to put Sam's life above everything else. Dean's inability to accept Sam's eventual death is the problem.
ReplyDeleteI believe this goes along with Carver's view of the show. He clearly has a problem with the premise of the show, the idea that these two brothers would do anything for each other and will do whatever they can to save each other. That is a problem for Carver. He seems very intent on breaking this relationship, changing everything that made it unique, and turning it into a very normal, regular relationship. So, I fully expect Sam to explain the real problem to Dean when they reunite (I.e., "You have to let me go"), and then Dean will have learned the lesson Carver's been trying to "teach" him: Just let Sam die. So the next time Sam's in a position to die, Dean will let him. Lesson learned.
I'm sorry, but are you saying that while in coma Sam was supposed to realize he was making a choice? Are you saying Sam is also at fault for being possessed by GadZeke?!?!?!
ReplyDeleteAre you forgetting that Sam was in a coma? How could he consciously and knowingly give up his power to Dean when he was in a coma?
ReplyDeleteFirst you say this
ReplyDeleteWhat I am saying Sam has to realise at some point he is responsible for
giving Dean power over him. If he was truly ready to go why did Dean
turning up mean he simply gave that up?
And then you say this
It is ashame because I don't think they will have Sam remember the home
that Dean was in and finding out what Dean gave up in Bad Boys.
So according to you, Sam at age 11 or 12 is totally and completely responsible for Dean giving up his chance at normal in Bad Boys to the extent that he owes Dean to the point of giving up all of his dreams to make Dean happy, EVEN THOUGH Sam wasn't in the room when Dean made his decision and hadn't said 2 words to him. Sam wasn't hanging on Dean begging him to come home. Dean made his choice based on HIS wants and needs.
And at the same time Sam is totally and completely responsible for his own possession because he gave Dean "power over him" even though he had no idea that Dean was about to violate his bodily integrity. Wow! Who knew Sam was so powerful that he is the only person who is responsible for what he does AND what Dean does. And who knew Dean was SO WEAK that he has no control over his own actions and choices. Sam chose to trust his brother who told him that he didn't have to die if Sam just trusted him. Then Dean immediately violated that trust. Should Sam always assume that Dean is lying to him? Should he assume that Dean will violate him over and over? Dean was clear that he knew that Sam would NEVER say yes to being possessed. He then made sure that Sam could not have a say in remaining possessed. Either Sam trusts Dean to not permit a foreign entity or he can't trust Dean about anything. Sam was hammered by Dean and fandom last year for not trusting Dean about Benny. Now you are hammering him about TRUSTING Dean when Sam was dying and in a coma. You can't have it both ways. Dean not being trustworthy is not Sam's fault. Dean deciding to stay with John and Sam is not Sam's responsibility.
If Sam wasn't able to make a choice in the coma then the whole parts of him talking to head Dean, Head Bobby and Head Death don't mean anything. Then Jared would have simply lay in that bed throughout that episode.
ReplyDeleteIf we are saying that those scenes where Sam getting comfortable with the idea of dying then we also have to say they also showed that he was able to make a choice. Bobby was able to run away from the Reaper at the point when he was unconscious so he made a choice so did Sam.
Dean opened the door and is responsible for keeping it hidden which is wrong but Sam still had to say Yes. He said yes because he automatically chose his brother over what he says he was ready to choose for himself - that has to be addressed too. If the brothers are to move forward because that means he either wasn't really ready to go or there is still a part of him that is a little boy that when is really scared that has a part of him that wants to run and hide behind his big brother's. Just like when things get tough for Dean he goes over board and is willing to take over to protect his little brother in a blind and destructive way without thinking his actions through.
Firstly I don't know what hospital you go to but a spouse can't override a concious and in their right mind partner to out and out lie to him/her. So that example is disingenuous and any Doctor that allows that shouldn't be practicing.
ReplyDeleteIf Sam wanted to live for himself then have Sam admit that he said Yes because he would rather live than die. It would help break the cycle of codependency and gives Sam some agency back.
Sam said yes to his brother, not Gadreel. So, you're basically saying Sam was wrong to trust his brother, and that Sam should have been smart enough to know that Dean was tricking him. Okay . . . . believe what you wish.
ReplyDeleteI disagree w/your interpretation of these events.
"Unfortunately for Sam"? Man, when you toss "unfortunately" into that response, it really doesn't cast a good light on what happened. It's like Sam has no choice because "unfortunately" he's the brother of a guy who can't survive alone.
ReplyDeleteSuch an awesome episode!. It is so fantastic to have it back!!
ReplyDeleteIt is not uncommon for the bros to have their arguments, different views but really they're on the same page. They will get back to the brotherly bond in no time. What left me pondering was sam crypticness, but I think he just being psychological.
Crowley-Ooh he was so amusing, he was hilarious!. From what I seen in the next promo he will be very useful for a while.
I found it funny when he was bickering with Cas. The angel and the 'devil' does make a good team.
I have slight concerns when Crowley went all possession on Sam that he might of made him sicker or retrieved something important from him. Whether its secrets or power-ups..
However Crowley was pretty kickass doing all that he had done.
Crowley certaintly met his match with Abbadon!. I look forward for that storyline to evolve. That blood thing with Crowley is a possibility but I don't really think so, but him being somewhat human is a permanet damage from that trial, unless he cured himself back.
Cas- Well I was glad that he had Dean's back, he was quite sensible and putting up from Crowley. I think Cas does have the humane streak whether if it is literal or he's just sympathetic.
I do like the idea of Sam and Cas having abit of interaction. I also hope that Cas and Dean are still on agreeable terms. I think Cas main storyline is snatching back his grace from Metraton, and l like to see that!.
Gadreel and Sam- Gadreel could very well be the next Lucifer from all the problems he had caused. He was mysterious and then came out guns blazing. I was actually stunned to learn he basically did ruin the universe, although him being evil was predicatable. I think we get to see more of his history and him being buddies with Metraton. I think Gadreel is going along with Metraton but his plans are to have the plan to his kind but take out Metraton if he ever have the chance so he can be this new leader. Nice to have that Tahmok actor back.
Sam was so kickass!. That was a powerful scene with him getting Gadreel out and surving it all the way through. That was the best scene for me. It was a really good twist to everything to.
Sam and Dean- I can understand why they did fight. There was Kevin's death and things were slowly getting back to the standards.
But Dean risked everything to have his bro back, they was no way he was letting Sammy die. Dean is understandably going through all emotions but when the brothers start to have good communication Dean is going to be rockin'. Also when Sam gets better and talk about his point of view on things he's going to be powerful again.
It was such an amazing episode and always look forward for more :D
Doing everything for each other just might include respecting each other's wishes. And bravo to Carver for actually writing characters who have learned something over the course of 9 years. Having the same endless fighting in comments and on the show is wearisome at best.
ReplyDeleteNo. What it means is that Dean is always going to try to save him regardless of Sam's wishes because Dean doesn't have anyone else.
ReplyDeleteThank you! Finally a comment with some common sense. It is very telling to me that almost every time someone wants to hate on a character the hate is for Dean. When Sam didn't look for Dean (which was completely understandable to me), there was no hate for Sam but a lot of the writers have screwed up his character - what? But this is all beating a dead horse. The indication is that Jensen approached the writers to make sure the storyarc actually did come to some fruition, so I'm hopeful that we will see this play out. With season 10 almost a lock, we may have to wait at least one more season to see a redemption arc for Dean. Frankly, having him continue to make the same mistakes is getting wearisome. I do like, as I said, that they've come back to this idea that he's poison that was planted quite a while ago - I'm hoping they let this play out.
ReplyDeleteYes! So nice to see a comment that simply enjoys the show! I just loved all the Crowley and Cas in this episode - awesome!
ReplyDeleteDoing everything for each other just might include respecting each other's wishes.
ReplyDeleteNever said it couldn't, but given how Carver wrote a "mature" Sam last year, forgive me if I have reservations about his idea of maturity and his vision of the brothers' relationship.
Firstly I don't know what hospital you go to but a spouse can't override
ReplyDeletea concious and in their right mind partner to out and out lie to
him/her. So that example is disingenuous and any Doctor that allows
that shouldn't be practicing.
Considering we are discussing a case where an ANGEL needs to possess someone against his will, I'm not sure that your nitpicking about medical ethics plays much of a role. Oddly enough there are not a whole lot of real world equivalents to angelic possession, so I picked a as close an approximation of the case. I agree that you should report my imaginary physician to the imaginary board of medical ethics since you are so appalled by his behavior. However, I will note that my grandmother-in-law was taken to the hospital by her husband back in the 1920s to be examined. When she got there she was put in a hospital gown and was told that the staff was going to sterilize her because he husband had requested it. She said she didn't want that. She pleaded with them to not do it and they did it anyway. Her husband didn't want any more kids and that was that. So yes, doctors have violated people's autonomy based on a relative's wishes.
However perhaps I should have made my long answer even longer and more boring by stating that a Jehovah's Witness is brought in UNCONSCIOUS after and accident with injuries requiring a blood transfusion and the doctors tell the spouse that the patient will need transfusions for several months before they will be cured. The spouse agrees to the transfusion because the synthetic blood won't work as well as real blood. The spouse then convinces the patient that they will be getting transfusions of synthetic blood for the course of the treatment and convinces the doctors that the patient agreed.
I agree Kripke's music was better, too. Carver tries hard, and for that I am appreciative, but where are the music people who worked for Kripke. I think they are still around and should have a good idea of what EK would have chosen.
ReplyDeleteI'm not upset the brothers split up at all. It made perfect sense in this case, and Sam knows Dean well enough to know he is not in a 'to be reasoned with' head space right now. Dean is angry, hurt, stubborn, and hellbent at the moment. I am really intrigued as to what Sam may have figured out and is letting Dean figure out on his own.
ReplyDeleteI do wonder where Carver is taking the brothers, since his favorite word seems to be "mature" (or "maturity"). I liked the "psychotically, irrationally, erotically codependency," and I really don't want a "healthy, mature" relationship. These two are TV characters, for God's sake. They hunt monsters, demons, and angels, and I'm okay with them just as they are.
I was actually relieved that the brothers split up in the end. It was extremely fitting considering all that's happened so far this season and would have seemed stupid if they'd stayed together. No matter his intentions, Dean lied and allowed both a psycho angel and the king of Hell to possess Sam. As much as this story is about two brothers, it's also about how dangerously codependent they are. Several of the major plot lines and disasters have been because of that extreme codependency and Dean's extreme phobia of ever living without Sam.
ReplyDeleteI love the show and agree the show should be about the brothers continuing the family business, but not at the expense of, or eternal detriment to, each other and the world.
I can't wait to see the odd pairing of Dean and Crowley hunting together while Cas heals Sam.
I am going to get crap for this but at the end what Sam said to Dean got me thinking here and all I can say is Dean does not care about Sam at all or his feeling about anything he just want Sam to live in this hell of a world in pain all the time and not caring what Sam wants one cares at all what Sam want it all about Dean.
ReplyDeleteThis isn't the place to have a lengthy discussion about which brother suffers an unhealthy co-dependency, so I won't go into it more than to say that I think it has been shown multiple times that Dean can and has hunted alone, but his whole being since the age of four has been to keep his family close, and when he loses a member, he starts rebuilding another one. On the other hand, I think it's been shown multiple times that Sam falls completely apart when Dean isn't around. Storylines over the years have come from these two characteristics.
ReplyDeleteI also am not one who thinks Dean did wronged Sam in allowing possession. He did so to save Sam's life and if he had not done so, Sam would be dead. Personally, I prefer Sam stay on the show as a human, not as a ghost or a powered up angel. My opinion and personal preference only, of course.
I, too, am looking forward to see the Dean/Crowley pairing and the Cas/Sam pairing.
Actually, that's what I was saying. It is both of them. This season it was just Dean's turn to save Sam, again. Next season, or even next episode, it'll probably be Sam's turn because they both have the codependency thing which causes huge problems. And, I agree, that it's hardwired into Dean's character. I'm actually more of a Dean fan but I knew the minute the angel suggested healing Sam from the inside that this was going to happen. I definitely wasn't saying that Dean did wrong or right with what he did, only that I knew how Sam was going to react to it in the end and that this was coming. In Dean's situation, I probably would have done the same and agree with what Cas told him about it.
ReplyDeleteI just really wish the writers would find a more creative method of creating drama than constantly using Sam against Dean and vice versa.
I'm also probably one of the few who think that the boys having a couple of episodes hunting separately actually allows their characters to grow more so that they are better when they reunite.
I think it has been shown multiple times that Dean can and has hunted
ReplyDeletealone, but his whole being since the age of four has been to keep his
family close, and when he loses a member, he starts rebuilding another
one. On the other hand, I think it's been shown multiple times that Sam
falls completely apart when Dean isn't around.
I have to disagree here. Not, not necessarily with your evaluation of Dean, although I think you are minimizing Dean's breakdown, but with your evaluation of Sam falling completely apart when Dean isn't around. Let's look at the times Sam has been without Dean in the series. Supernatural starts with Sam having been without Dean for between 2-4 years. During that time, Sam went to college, provided a home for himself, made friends, fell in love, did well in school and was preparing for law school. Those are the actions of a stable person who is not falling apart. So this doesn't turn into a novel, I'm not going to count times like Scarecrow or Hunted or even AHBL when the separations were short term. The next time Sam was alone without Dean was Mystery Spot and yes, he fell apart then. Of course the time without Dean followed at least 3 months (Sam told Dean he had seen Dean die daily at least 100 times) of watching Dean die every single day. These deaths were often violent and traumatizing. The next time Dean died was at the end of season three. Again, I agree that Sam fell apart. The thing is, Dean didn't just die either time. He died and went to Hell and he went to Hell BECAUSE OF SAM. Sam had not just lost his brother. He wasn't even dealing with the guilt of Dean dying because of him, that could happen during any hunt if Dean took a bullet meant for Sam. Sam was dealing with the fact that Dean had committed suicide to save Sam and that Dean was suffering eternal torture because of Sam. Plus, Dean did not encourage Sam to move on with his life after Dean died. Dean ORDERED Sam to keep hunting, remember what John taught them and what Dean taught him. To keep faith with Dean, Sam had to remain in a life he hated, surrounded by violence while knowing his brother was being tortured and eventually would turn into something that Sam might have to kill. I don't know how most people would not fall apart under that particular pressure.
The next separation was when Sam went into the Cage. His body came out fairly quickly and Soulless!Sam did many things, but fall apart wasn't one of them. When Sam's soul was returned to him it was after being tortured for years by Michael and Lucifer. When he finally remembered the torture he fell apart. If you search the Internet on "pyschological effects of torture" you will find studies that show that many, if not most people fall apart after extended periods of torture. Sam did fall apart being separated from Dean while in the Cage, but there was more gong on than just being separated from Dean.
Which brings us to the last big separation. The main complaint about Sam after Dean went to Purgatory is that he DIDN'T fall apart. He pulled himself together. He got a job. He made friends with people at the motel. He got a dog. He connected with Amelia. He made a life. Do I think he grieved. Absolutely. Do I think he was messed up? Sure, but he was still a man who had been tortured and traumatized. I simply do not see Sam as ever falling apart because he wasn't with Dean. When he did fall apart there were other factors going on that added to not being with Dean. I just don't see what you apparently do.
Rock on glad we're on the same page :D
ReplyDeleteNot their job to second guess their boss (Carver now). In the end, Carver probably got a good sense of Kripke's taste in music from being in the writers' room with him, but it's now Carver's show...
ReplyDeleteMy hope is that Carver will balance that - it is a drama after all! I totally agree with you about why it made sense for Sam to let Dean go at that moment too.
ReplyDeleteAgreed! Can't wait for next week either! Maybe Carver is moving the brothers toward an understanding that they have to be prepared to let the other die so that if the show is renewed for season 11 and one of the actors doesn't want to continue, they can realistically kill him off.... *gasp*!
ReplyDeleteYES! Dean thought he was allowing an angel he could trust to possess Sam - on Cas's endorsement after all. Wrong thing for the right reason, yes?
ReplyDeleteAnd next week looks awesome!
Given that this entire thread has been driven by Samlovers/Deanhaters, I suspect you will get lots of upvotes for this.
ReplyDeleteThis is an old and tired debate. But I couldn't disagree with your comment more. If you honestly think that Sam and Dean don't care equally about each other, I think we've been watching a different show.
Of course he got hate this is Sam and in fact it is still the one thing brought up more even in this season than Dean's Gadreel decision .Can you honestly say that in this esp in this episode Dean did not get not only sympathetic writing but a sympathetic pov . There is a big difference when a character goes into a situation with no or very little insight and one who's decision maybe dubious or even wrong but the audience is given a view that allows understanding of that choice.
ReplyDeleteIn this situation we were left with no doubt why Dean did what he did even Castiel was used to underline it 'A stupid decision but for the right reasons ' .
Dean has never been the one that we have had to second guess or feel in blanks .
Personally I wanted and think a Sam pov on this is needed because it was his body usurped let alone used to kill Kevin but the bulk of the focus will be on Dean's reaction starting with what happened at the end of this episode.
I agree with your first paragraph it pretty much sums up what this show is about and I dont know if everyone sees the co-dependancy as a problem but I belive Jeremy Carver does and has been working to effectively break it down somewhat with this seasons storyline. Which is bizaar as he spent the latter part of season 8 makeing them more co-dependant and then in the next episode (9.11) throws out statements like 'you chose each other' while in interviews aknowledging that the relationship has to change?
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure thats why Carver is doing it, I dont think they'll kill off either brother till the end of the series and based on Jared and Jensen's previous stance when the subject has been brought up they wont sign on to any more seasons if the other doesnt. But yes it does at times seem like Carver might be trying to break the co-dependancy so he can kill Sam off and carry on the series with his beloved Dean and Cas at the helm.
ReplyDeleteSam was fine all those times he ran away, he was fine alone without Dean and his dad as he was growing up and he was left behind while they were on a hunt, he was fine at Stanford, he was fine when Dean was in Purgatory, sure he was sad and never completely happy but he survived. There are two instances that we;ve seen Sam not fine without Dean those were in Mystery Spot (though he was a brilliant hunter and not falling apart he was messed up) and when Dean dies at the end of season 3. Both times Sam lived with the knowledge that Dean was in hell suffering because he had made a deal to save Sam's life. I have seen no other proof that Sam can not live without Dean. I think Sam would eaily be able to move on and live a life outside of hunting or just away from Dean if he wanted to as long as he knows that Dean isnt in hell suffering.
ReplyDeleteDoesnt matter if you can trust the angel or not you do not let a supernatural being possess your brother, I'm sure Dean wouldnt have liked it if it had been done to him and I doubt he would feel grateful for it as you seem to expect Sam to be.
ReplyDeleteGood points about him being soulless, soulless Sam was not a Sam fallen apart. The pyscological break due to his wall being dissolved wasnt a side affaect of Sam being without Dean while he was in the cage it was about the 150 or so years of torture he suffered.
ReplyDeleteAlso when he Dean was in Purgatory Sam was sad but he didnt fall apart, he still got on with his life even if he wasnt particularly happy and missed his brother he didnt fall apart of show that he was unable to cope without Dean around. Infact he lived pretty much like Dean did when he knew Sam was in the cage while he wa with Lisa and Ben, he was there he was living but he was sad.
I dont know where Carver is going but he has hinted that he seems to find the co-dependancy an issue and would like to fix it. So my guess is we will see a less co-dependant relationship in the future which isnt really a problem as long as they dont try to kill one off before the end of the series. They can pretty much just work together and live in the bunker together without the lack of co-dependancy being an issue.
ReplyDeleteI hope the co-dependancy is well and truelly finaly dead and I am looking forward to a healtheir relationship where they arent living in each others pockets. I hope it will mean that Sam makes friends away from Dean and hunts with others as Dean has been able to do.
You should always let someone go when they're throwing a pity party and stomping away in a tantrum.
ReplyDeletewwhile its doubful thats the direction they will take it would be a ncie change up and a worthwile storyline for a change. Otherwise its just Sam accepting what Dean did because its in Dean's 'nature' to have done it. No matter how he feels or expresses Dean will still go ahead and do whatever HE thinks neccessary regarless of the consequences because otherswise it would go against the character of Dean. Persoanlly I think the change is is a long time coming and I hope I have interpretted Carvers' dislike of the co-dependancy corerectly. If he;s going to set out to fix it then fix it once and for all.
ReplyDeleteSo they can work ith other people, not be in each others back pockets all the time, have lives outside of each other, learn to be apart on a more permenant basis for the future.
ReplyDeletePersonally I'd like to seperate them into Sam as MOL dealing more with that side of the storyline, developing that side of the storyline more with more characters, more cases, maybe some time travel.
Dean to continue to deal with the angels and demons with the exsisting characters Cas, Crowley, Abaddon, Charlie, Garth, Gadreel, Metatron and so on.
Its a shame it isnt going to happen
Dean has Cas, Charlie, Garth, maybe even Crowley and he has the writers constantly creatings connections between and other characters. If he wants more people in his life then there is nothing stopping him.
ReplyDeleteWould you be ok if someone dies because you lived, it certainly didnt sit well with Dean when Sam saved him in Faith unknowingly at the expense of someone else?! Thats not something that has to be pointed out by the show, its a basica part of being a decent human being.
ReplyDeleteI dont see why you have such a probelm with the co-dependacny being broken it doesnt actually have to have any impact on the show till the end of the series, in fact it might actually stop the continual cycle of one brother dying the other saving. The writers will now know they cant go there again untill the end of the series because then it wont matter. The brothers will still work together on cases and live together and what not.
ReplyDeletehow would that even work when one wished that he be allowed to die when its his time and/or to not be saved at the expense of someone else and others wish is to keep the other alive no matter what? Something will have to give, either Sam continues to live and be saved regardless of what he wants just to respect Dean's wishes or Dean lets Sam die when its time. The secnd one isnt really a problem the writers can work around it by not having Sam in mortal danger again till the end of the series but the first one is a major issue.
ReplyDeleteTrusting someone is not hiding behind them and it certainly doesnt make you a scared little boy.
ReplyDeleteSam said YES because he didnt want to die (he was ready to if no plan ever arose and willing if it meant no one was hurt because of him) and he trusted that the real Dean in his head was there because he had come up with a plan. I highly doubt he thought the plan would involve being possessed by an angel and ending up trapped in his own body and Kevin dead. If he had known he would have said no. Perhaps saying YES based solely on trusting his brother was a bad move on Sam's part, I hope he has now learned not to do anything based on blind trust for his brother again.
Also you cant balme Dean's blind and destructive actions on Sam, those are Dean's issues with the co-dependancy no Sam's.
No Dean took a gamble because he decided Sam was going to live .
ReplyDeletewho exactly has said that Sam isnt just as co-dependent as Dean? I'm confused as to why you're trying to prove Sam is just as co-depenant. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make?
ReplyDeleteYou say Sam didn't want to die but he said he was ready to and Carver says he's slightly suicidal so be let Sam be a man and PICK ONE and admit to picking one.
ReplyDeleteEither he doesn't want to die or he does if he gets assurance no-one gets hurt. PICK ONE, PICK ONE, PICK ONE!!!!!!!!!!
Those options aren't on Dean they are on Sam, so have if Sam isn't as blindly codependent on Dean as Dean is on him then have him PICK ONE!!!!
He was told with hunting last season in or out you can't be half and half. Same with life either admit you want to be here or check out don't have a half assed cop out of 'I was ready to go but my big brother tricked me because I trusted him'
The point is that either Sam is as codependent as Dean or actually wanted to live for himself or that Sam will never be trusted to have agency over anything to do with himself ever - if that is the case Carver has in effect neutered Sam. He has Crowley describe him as a big baby and he isn't far off.
ReplyDeleteCas, Dean even Crowley screw up and we get fall out and growth with Sam it is a pause some introspection we aren't really privy to understanding then there is a redemption gesture and then having him fall over injured and has to be rescued/fixed/tended to. It isn't interesting after 9 years - hell even Disney has moved their heroines away from that model.
I want Sam to own his codependency that is all. It is easy to blame Dean for the angel possession, which is fine he has a lot of the blame but that still doesn't get past the fact that to become a vessel Sam himself had to say the word YES and he blindly did because it was Dean asking him to - he has to address that. There is a difference from trusting your family and being a mug and right now Sam is getting pushed closer to that if they don't let us know that he owns his own faults.
Ouch for Sam then . He better run then if I was him.
ReplyDeleteBut we arent arguing that Sam didnt want to live, we have establisted that he was ready and willing to die not that he wanted to die which are very different things. That doesnt mean he is responsible for being tricked into saying Yes, the only thing that Sam did wrong was trusting Dean. Off course neither of them knew Kevin would end up dead but Dean knew that an angel would be possessing Sam and Sam didnt. You are right that Sam didnt have to say Yes to Dean, he didnt have to trust him but then wouldnt that be giving up completeley? wouldnt it be letting his brother down?
ReplyDeleteIt probably was why they used Bobby but how that makes sense I dont know considering when Sam thought Dean was dead instead of just in Purgatory at the end of season 7 Sam told Bobby that he had listened to what he had been told that 'when it was your time you go' and tried to get Dean back only to have Bobby tell him that that was basically bullshit. So if that is the reason they used Bobby then it was a pretty poor conection.
ReplyDeletewhich is what I belive Carver is now trying to fix one way or the other, they either pick each other every time and screw everyone and every consequence or they do what is right and save each other only up till a point where it stops being right, where others might get hurt and where the consequences are deemed too great.
ReplyDeleteWell say that! Have him say that him being ready to die is different from wanting to die. He didn't want to survive the way he survived. That is fine, that is okay. Don't simply say that Sam was ready to die without saying the rest, it is half of Sam's story, it is only half the story he has explained to Dean. He was ready to die because the way he could survive was unacceptable to him. Not just Sam was ready to die but Dean tricked him.
ReplyDeleteAs for not Sam not saying yes to Dean meaning that he would be letting Dean down. Is that Dean's fault for that perception or is Sam's view of the codependency. You said that Dean going too far to protect Sam is on Dean not Sam. By the same thinking Sam giving up his agency because he frightened of the perception of letting Dean down or trusts Dean blindly is on Sam, not Dean. That is what I am saying.
To move forward as much as Dean has to let go Sam has to address the fact that there are points he lets Dean go too far when he, himself is concerned.
No it makes sense, Ghost Bobby was talking personally - when it is your time to go - go. But when Sam invoked the agreement to explain why he didn't look he wasn't just talking about something that affected him, it affected someone else in an unknown situation, that is why Bobby called it a nonagreement, you look until you exhaust all sane leads then you let go.
ReplyDeleteThe thing is Sam could have easily gotten around Dean's reaction by saying sorry and hitting home the fact that he fell apart and he was in no state to look for Dean or help Kevin. But he didn't tell Dean that, he told Kevin that though. With Dean he hung on to the agreement, which meant that he was saying that Dean being stuck in purgatory and no help coming from this side was as much Dean's fault as Sam's which is kind of out of line especially seeing how Sam complained about the method Dean used to get out of purgatory and the price Dean was willing to pay - Benny's freedom
I don't know. Carver's concept of "maturity" last year frightened me. I am not sure what he'll do w/the brothers at this point.
ReplyDeleteI'm okay with them just as they are.
ReplyDeleteMe too! And after seeing Carver's idea of maturity w/Sam last year, I'm not too excited to see what he has in store for the brothers once he's done dismantling their relationship!
Great episode to usher in 2014. JA's performance brought all the intensity that I think Dabb's script demanded. Lots of fine acting in this one, but JA delivered the emotional throughline. I also liked the understated way both JP and JA played the ending scene. That gave it the emotional punch the situation called for. I also thought it was the right thing to do to split up, although Dean's head is in a very bad place at the moment. What has Sam figured out that he's going to let Dean figure out on his own? I'm curious.
ReplyDeleteI never mind when the brothers go off on their own, and I am certainly not one that thinks Dean is too co-dependent. In fact, I think Sam is the one who has repeatedly been shown to fall to pieces when Dean isn't around. I do worry that Carver is going to change these two characters into something different than I originally bought into. I hope not.
No sympathy for Gadreel from me. I think he's crossed the moral horizon and, although I think he will have a change of heart and switch sides, he's a dead man walking in my book. Besides, he isn't coming off looking particularly bright. Loved being surprised to see Tahmoh back. I was so wrapped up in Dean's devastation at the funeral pyre, I must have missed the credits.
Making Crowley more knowledgeable than any angel bothers me a little bit. I don't know where they are taking Crowley, but I remember that he has a very ugly past with the Winchesters and tortured both Kevin and Mrs. Tran for the fun of it. I hope the writers are not re-writing that history with Crowley's human story just to keep Crowley around.
Metatron bores me, and I have no idea what his end game is. He will probably order Gad to kill Dean, and that's when Gad will switch sides. What I want to see is Dean and Abaddon go head-to-head. I think they are equal adversaries, and that would be fun.
Really looking forward to Dean and Crowley together tomorrow.
To flippantly call the deep emotional depression both brothers are going through this season as a "pity party" ignores what I think is a very compelling story being. Depression and guilt has left both brothers 'suicidal' in that Sam thinks his life isn't worth anything, so he's ready to die; and Dean, driven by lack of self-worth and guilt, is suicidal in his recklessness to kill both angels and demons.
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