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POLL : What did you think of Supernatural - First Born?

Jan 22, 2014

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127 comments:

  1. klutzy_girlJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:00 AM

    I loved it! NOTHING IS WORTH LOSING YOU AND THEN A HUG AND ALSKDJF;ALKSDJFLAKSDJF. All the Sam and Cas moments were awesome. He was worried about Sam! Sam hugged him!

    And oh, Dean. The Cain thing isn't going to end well at all. But I liked Cain and his story was interesting.

    Great episode!

    ReplyDelete
  2. TexasGreatGramsJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:00 AM

    Each episode gets better & BETTER

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  3. Misty PebworthJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:01 AM

    Simply put, amazing episode all around.

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  4. FredaJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:01 AM

    I loved the episode. The scenes between Cas and Sam provided great emotional insight that we were really missing this season. I also loved that Crowley played Dean. He still is a bad guy and the writers remained true to that. :) Great episode!

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  5. ScottAJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:03 AM

    Writing teams are on a roll. Introducing new mythology a bit at a time and it fits into the story well. Wonder if Dean using the blade will end up killing him leaving Sam with one of "those" decisions?

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  6. Lissie_BeeJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:11 AM

    I absolutely ADORED this episode. Cain was an interesting addition, especially with the twist on the traditional Bible story. Dean and the "father of murder" had more in common than we thought! And watching Cain calmly shuck corn and drink a beer while Dean fought off the demons was priceless. This whole Mark of Cain thing is going to be interesting.

    Dean and Crowley together were fabulous. I loved their little road trip, and seeing them interact almost civilly. Until... you know... Crowley was Crowley.

    But my favorite part? FINALLY, an episode where Cas and Sam spent more than 30 seconds interacting. So much love. Hopefully we'll get more of that in the future. Not that I want Dean and Sam separated of course, but Cas' scenes with Sam fall by the wayside when the writers have Dean to work with instead. I know they're the better friends, but it was great to see Sam get some insight into their angelic companion as well.

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  7. FredaJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:14 AM

    I wonder how they are going to explore the Mark of Cain - although they change the history quite a lot, the Mark of Cain was meant to protect Cain as he traveled through the world as well as curse him. Completely concur on the Sam/Cas and Dean/Crowley.

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  8. Ana PaulaJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:15 AM

    OMG!!! I can't even say anything about the episode yet, I'm speechless... Cain was an amazing addition, the actors were great, the action scene AMAZING!!! Cas and Sam...The hug was so sweet!! I will come back later so i can talk about the episode properly.

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  9. LiseJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:16 AM

    Awesome stuff, please hit me cuz I don't believe......

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  10. patriotfallJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:28 AM

    What a fantastic episode!

    I absolutely loved how much insanely cool mythology the writers put into Cain. And the introduction of the Mark of Cain should be interesting to watch considering Dean now has it and it contains some nasty side effects.

    I can't even begin to explain how much I loved the bonding time between Sam and Cas. It was much needed and I loved how we got a lot of it. Also, the hug! THE HUG! That was just beautiful.

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  11. JeanneMJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:30 AM

    Epic. First time I've rated an episode "Awesome" since I honestly can't remember...in at least a few years. Loved it.

    ReplyDelete
  12. SPN FickleJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:35 AM

    I was pre-empted for a stupid basketball game in my area (Maryland). I still have to wait 26 more minutes for the start.... Grrrrrrrr.... I hope there are actual scenes that last longer than a flash with Sam and Castiel. Someone told me they were about 50/50 with Crowley and Dean, but I heard Jared was off a lot for this episode... But, I am keeping my fingers crossed. I haven't heard one bad word about this episode yet.

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  13. lala2January 22, 2014 at 3:37 AM

    I don't think it was 50/50, but more like 70/30. However, if you have wanted to see Sam and Cas interact on a more personal level, then you should be pleased w/their scenes.

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  14. kerindaJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:49 AM

    WOW everyone liked it I am shocked I come back later for the hate ok. but I got one ? were was the crying part I was told that was going to happen was that a lie or some Sam POV all I got was Cas POV so was that a Lie too I just wanted to know but ok Ep anyway WHATEVER! happy everyone liked it.

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  15. lala2January 22, 2014 at 4:01 AM

    Kerinda, I've been reserving comment as well b/c I'm not sure how I felt about it. There were definitely parts that bothered - mostly the Sam/Cas stuff but also Carver's whole take on the boys and their relationship. I don't think I'm going to like where that leads.

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  16. Dominick GraceJanuary 22, 2014 at 4:53 AM

    I thought I'd hate this one, but I was pleasantly surprised. Mostly, anyway.

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  17. João PauloJanuary 22, 2014 at 4:55 AM

    I like this episode a lot, I love when they add new mithology to the show. The Cain story was great, can't wait to see more, I like the dynamic between Cas and Sam too.

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  18. SPN FickleJanuary 22, 2014 at 5:04 AM

    I don't know if it is even 80/20 but Sam and Castiel did have several 2 minute scenes. I think one was even close to 3 minutes... I didn't really understand what happened though. It looked like extracting the grace was reverting Sam back to the state he was in at the end of the trials... Then Bam, Castiel healed him when he couldn't before.

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  19. SuePoJanuary 22, 2014 at 5:04 AM

    Ha! After a year and a half, they finally got my attention! :) Love the "Cain" connection. Great addition to the mythology. Timothy Osmundson was fantastic. The scene with him shucking corn while Dean fought the demons was worth the wait. And seeing that Dean was aware of everything around him was awesome. Welcome back, Hunter Dean! Not sure where the Cas/Sam stuff was supposed to lead since it ended up accomplishing nothing, but loved the Crowley/Dean buddy road trip.

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  20. lala2January 22, 2014 at 5:10 AM

    Yeah . . . I had a real problem w/that too! Why even say Sam was reverting back to the state in he was in before Gadreel possessed him when the show made a huge deal about Castiel not being able to heal the damage to Sam!?!?! Huh?!?! I was like, "Oh, now you can heal him?"

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  21. kerindaJanuary 22, 2014 at 5:11 AM

    you are right and I keeped on hearing that Sam was going to Cry in some Ep I was thinking this one and have a big part of something but not a damn thing just a big Cas talker and that's all god I miss season one Sam he would be more pissed off but nothing here I like the hug and all but the whole Ep I am thinking to myself there going to make Dean the big hero and make Sam the wimp again right? and that hurts too a Sam fan here it really suck's right now and I am tired of it.

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  22. JeanneMJanuary 22, 2014 at 5:16 AM

    Right? I'm totally excited...this was so overdue. I loved the twisty-history of Cain. Made perfect sense within the SPN universe. Loved Crowley's "You're good, but I'm Crowley" line...classic. Fantastic. It may all fall apart...but right now...I'm a happy camper!

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  23. SPN FickleJanuary 22, 2014 at 5:18 AM

    Now that I have finally seen it I'm feeling kind of unmoved. I did like Cain and the twist... I also like that Dean now has something supernatural going on with him. I am hoping that will make Sam the one with the POV, but I won't hold my breath. It looks like they tried to give Sam some POV this episode, but I just didn't get what they were trying to say. Extracting the grace accomplished diddly squat. I don't understand how Castiel totally healed him in one fell swoop... That felt too much like when Castiel "shifted" Sam's Hellucinations.

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  24. lala2January 22, 2014 at 5:19 AM

    I thought Dean's part of the episode was very interesting. Those who have been clamoring for him to get a mytharc should be happy. Getting the mytharc has never done Sam any favors, but we'll see how it shapes out for Dean. I do wish he had gotten more details from Cain before taking the mark, but he's in a bad place I guess.

    But Sam . . . absolutely nothing is happening w/him as I feared. It looks like he's not even going to support Dean in whatever Dean is doing. He is now w/o a purpose it seems. I didn't like it for Dean towards the end of last year, and I don't like it for Sam now. I hope Carver finds some way to involve Sam in something happening w/this show.

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  25. lala2January 22, 2014 at 5:27 AM

    Love your post! I pretty much feel the same way. I was equally unmoved even though I really enjoyed the whole Dean/Cain/Crowley part of the episode.

    I was also baffled by the Sam part of the episode. We didn't get any new knowledge about Sam that we didn't already have. The extracted grace thing was a waste of time. What was the point of those scenes? I guess it was character development for Cas.

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  26. kerindaJanuary 22, 2014 at 5:30 AM

    yep I hope its a go no were story line like the gates to hell bull-crap that was last year because that wasted all of are time.

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  27. SuePoJanuary 22, 2014 at 5:43 AM

    I'm happy they've finally remembered who Crowley is! He's the conniving con-artist/salesman I loved to hate! Missed that Crowley! And isn't it funny that demon wars are so much more interesting than angel wars? :) I still have no interest in what happens in the angel war. But I'm looking forward to a Crowley/Abbadon/Winchester showdown!

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  28. Joseph LeeJanuary 22, 2014 at 5:44 AM

    I only ask that Crowley be absolutely drenched and water-logged when he returns. If only for my personal entertainment.

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  29. JeanneMJanuary 22, 2014 at 5:45 AM

    Yes, that was a nice twist at the end...and I loved smart!Dean (smarter than my dumb-ass) who wasn't fooled for a second. That's our boy!

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  30. SPN FickleJanuary 22, 2014 at 6:39 AM

    That would be funny :-)

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  31. SPN FickleJanuary 22, 2014 at 6:52 AM

    I kind of liked Castiel's disappointment it PB&J. Saying it tasted like molecules and was overwhelming was really descriptive and showed me a bit about what it must be like as an angel. But, like you said, we didn't really learn anything about Sam. He kind of seemed to be encouraging Castiel to "drain him dry"... But I didn't see the suicidal thing that people have been talking about. It was more like he was desperate to help... even if that required everything he had.

    Oh, and I like the fact that Castiel didn't want that to happen.... and that Castiel saw that feeling as progress for himself.

    I just wish that after waiting practically the entire season to see Sam become aware of what he was going through, I could actually see what he was going through... Instead, after watching Dean suffer with his secret all season... after watching him deal with Gadreel and hide his existence from everybody, we now get to watch him get revenge....

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  32. ShatteredOneJanuary 22, 2014 at 7:15 AM

    Oh wow, for the first time since Death's Door, and before that, since Season 5, I voted Awesome for an episode of Supernatural. The episode was actually exciting and interesting with its mythology, particularly with the Dean/Crowley/Cain stuff. Timothy Omundson was great in the role, and I loved how bad ass that beard was, and just how bad ass he was. For once I'm actually interested in this "weapon that will kill a great evil" storyline.


    The downsides were Sam/Cas stuff was kind of dull, and we're getting back into the "Dean Show" again which is just grating now.

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  33. NickJanuary 22, 2014 at 7:15 AM

    I think they're heading towards Dean taking on Abbadon and Sam dealing with Gadreel (not necessarily killing him because I think Gadreel will be redeemed, with Sam's help) and possibly Castiel facing off against Metatron. I think I'm perfectly okay with that, especially after this episode. It was never as evident as it was tonight of how deprived Sam is of anything resembling a point of view when Dean is around. So if the only way we actually get that from Sam is if they are split up, then they should be split up more often. There's nothing to say that Sam and Dean can't work together in some way while still having separate aims.


    In relation to the episode, I didn't love it. I thought the writing was pedestrian it really was chock full of anvils; Cain and Abel, really? Cain giving up his place in heaven to save his brother from hell, really?? The 'I did it for the love of a woman' trope (wow, first Benny and now Cain.....) again, really??? I know SPN has not exactly been known for its originality since Carver took over but come on!! I'm getting rather tired of Deans scowley face, and his absolute inability to think about the consequences (which are usually to other people) of his actions.


    They are, at least, tying up the 'purity' that Dean found while killing in Purgatory last season with the mark of Cain 'A killer like you' this season. It seems the show is going back to the 'Dean is looking to 'save' by killing and Sam is looking to save by healing or helping' idea that was there at the start. I'm assuming Dean will go 'dark side' via mass slaughter before giving it all up for the love of his brother, or his angel (whichever you prefer). Or he'll make the decision to send Sam to heaven and himself to hell so that he can spend eternity feeling justified and noble that he sacrificed himself for Sam, while Sam has to go through eternity knowing that his brother is, once again, in hell because of him.


    The scenes between Sam and Castiel reeked of just being shoved in there because they had to have Sam and Castiel do something. That being said, I did appreciate getting Sam's POV, small as it was what Sam said was true to character. It says something about the character of Sam that even now, he is still looking for atonement. It seems that for Sam, he can't even do enough or give enough to save people. His 'Help me to do one thing right' also shows just how little he thinks of what he has achieved, and he only focuses on his mistakes, something that has, unfortunately, been reinforced by the words and actions of the other characters in the show.


    I find it interesting that Dean has chosen to be tainted, unlike Sam who was born with demon blood.


    Possibly the best thing about the episode was Crowley, again. He was also true to character, the perfect conman.

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  34. Patrick MaloneyJanuary 22, 2014 at 8:12 AM

    Poor, I thought it was another predictable set up episode where one of the brothers get some kind of burden that he carries for the rest of the season.

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  35. SupernaturallyMeJanuary 22, 2014 at 8:17 AM

    I didn't get to watch it but I caved and read the recap. This mark that Dean got from Cain, is it a metaphorical mark or is it physical, like a scar or tattoo or something? Can't wait to watch, though...

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  36. tvmonkeyJanuary 22, 2014 at 8:29 AM

    I dont know how samrt Dean can be considering he just ended up wearing/taking on the Mark of Cain without knowing the condequences.

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  37. malooseJanuary 22, 2014 at 8:39 AM

    It was a great episode, I absolutely love Cain, he was a fantastic character.
    The twist in the Cain&Abel story was interesting, as in Supernatural fashion we just think we know everything but in fact we don't. On the other hand it was so sad, makes one ask where is God in all these injustices.

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  38. Alexandra KholodovaJanuary 22, 2014 at 10:06 AM

    It's physical, like a scar on his hand.

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  39. Peter J4January 22, 2014 at 10:29 AM

    I believed what Cas said. I believe that Cas cares about Sam. I've seen him die several times in part because of his wanting to try to help Sam (and Dean). I've seen Sam reaching out to him, as he did several times in season 5.


    Everything since season 6 has been a rocky road, but Sam seemed so happy to be around Cas this season.


    I did not believe the dialogue, because I thought it was poor, and I thought it was oddly dismissive of the emotions Cas felt as an angel.

    I did believe the sentiment.

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  40. Peter J4January 22, 2014 at 10:33 AM

    I'm not really sure if SPN being unoriginal is due to Carver. It's always been cliched. Sometimes cliches are a good thing.


    I just don't really care about Cain's backstory because it felt cheap and made Abaddon into yet another generic vengeful ex.


    I like the idea of contrasting Dean and Sam in mythology, especially because I think Dean suits the demon side far more than Sam ever did (I don't mean Dean is evil, I just mean his background and history with Hell).


    The episode had too much pointless misogyny for me to enjoy it as much as I wanted to. It had its moments.

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  41. tvmonkeyJanuary 22, 2014 at 10:42 AM

    except its not going to be mytharc Dean and POV Sam, its going to be Mytharc and POV Dean and the ususal amount of pointless Sam.

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  42. Peter J4January 22, 2014 at 10:42 AM

    I'll have to watch again. I liked the idea of Sam and Cas interacting, but the dialogue was somewhat weird and forced. Still, I'm glad they hugged.


    What was with yet more dead ladies and manpain? Was there a reason to kill off Tara (who was a great character, very similar to ladies like Ellen Harvelle)? Why did Cain need to have a dead lady to motivate him? Did Abaddon need to have a vengeful ex background?


    Can the show try to write more for women? Can they try to keep them alive to the end of an episode?


    The best part was Dean and Cain, Dean's darkness, that huge fight scene, Dean continuing to keep Crowley at arm's length, and then the mark. I'm not sure this show has a great history with myth arcs, but it's something that is very true to Dean's history, and it's something Jensen can play the hell out of (no pun intended) if he gets the chance.

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  43. tvmonkeyJanuary 22, 2014 at 10:44 AM

    I think based on some of what Jared has said and past behaviour of the show that they cut a few Sam scenes out. They did a lot last season too because there wasnt enough time.

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  44. tvmonkeyJanuary 22, 2014 at 10:47 AM

    I dont think Sam will be much involved in the Gadreel storyline, I thought Carver and Jensen talked about Dean getting revenge on Gadreel. It makes more sense that Castiel or Gadreel deal with Metatron in the end.

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  45. tvmonkeyJanuary 22, 2014 at 10:55 AM

    Even Misha has pointed out how mysogonistic the show is its really nothing new and really Dean will kill Abaddon in the end and that wil be that its hardly going to be suprising or intersting on that front.
    Intersting thoughts on Dean being more suited to the demon side I guess some people think that because he has a more violent nature. Sam has always been more saving people where as Dean has always been more about the killing/hunting things. I dont think this will mean Sam is anymore linked to the angel side of the show though, I just think the writers finally gave in to Dean fans and Jensen whining and gave him the mythology and instead of giving Sam the shows POV and the connections/relationships with the guests they will leave that with Dean too. Sam I guess will continue to research and be an introvert.

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  46. SupernaturallyMeJanuary 22, 2014 at 10:56 AM

    Thank you :)


    The thought of Dean having his very own Mjolnir is pretty freakin' awesome. I wonder what the burden that Cain mentioned is all about. Maybe he has to kill Sam or something. Although, knowing Dean, he'd probably kill himself before harming Sam...

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  47. tvmonkeyJanuary 22, 2014 at 10:57 AM

    I hope Sam has to kill Dean at the end of the season to save him.

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  48. tvmonkeyJanuary 22, 2014 at 11:03 AM

    why would Dean have to kill Sam? That doesnt make any sense anymore if Dean's now the one with the darkness. Unless Sam suddely starts going of the rails and becomes evil therw ould be no reason for Dean to have to play the tole of Cain and kill Sam in order to save him/sending his soul to heaven.

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  49. SupernaturallyMeJanuary 22, 2014 at 11:15 AM

    No, no, no, that's not what I meant. I just thinking that maybe maybe the blade makes the wielder wanna kill their younger brother or something, you know, as a side effect.


    Of course the burden could be something completely different. Too many possibilities. They've definitely captured my interest...and I haven't even watched the episode.

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  50. comicfangirlJanuary 22, 2014 at 11:26 AM

    Great episode, finally we got to see Dean for what he is, one of the best hunters around. Absolutely loved that Cas and Sam finally talked and hugged it out, that was long overdue.

    What I was waiting for, was that Cain would mention that Dean is related to him by blood, since Michael told Dean that the Winchesters are of the same bloodline as Cain and Abel way back in "5.13 The song remains the same".

    Remember?:

    ----------------------

    MICHAEL

    You're my true vessel but not my only one.

    DEAN

    What is that supposed to mean?

    MICHAEL

    It's a bloodline.

    DEAN

    A bloodline?

    MICHAEL

    Stretching back to Cain and Abel. It's in your blood, your father's blood, your family's blood.

    ------------

    But with new writers who don't seem to bother with canon most of the time, I guess you have to expect that they don't really care about details like that. Too bad.

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  51. NickJanuary 22, 2014 at 11:33 AM

    It's only considered dark if it's Sam that's doing it!

    That being said, the idea, as was suggested by Cain, that Dean will give up his place in heaven for his errant brother Sam is still in play. God only knows what Sam will do to earn a place in Hell this time, but don't be surprised if Dean, once again, makes a deal to trade himself for Sam. Whether or not Sam wants it is irrelevant.

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  52. lala2January 22, 2014 at 11:39 AM

    Great post! I actually agree w/many of your points.


    While I did find the Dean/Crowley/Cain stuff interesting, you are absolutely correct about the scenario being something we've seen again. Cain's story was quite similar to Benny's.


    I also agree that Dean should have gotten more information about the mark before taking it. If they write the mytharc as they have in the past, then it will all go wrong for Dean or he'll be fatally ill or something, and Sam will have to fix it.


    I love your description of the Sam/Cas scene, and I couldn't agree more w/you. It definitely felt like they had to pad the episode so they stuck in some random stuff w/Sam and Cas.


    I agree about Sam only focusing on his mistakes. He feels he's never done anything right, and that's very sad. I think the only thing we disagree about is Sam having anything to do w/the Gadreel/Metatron story after last night. I could be wrong, but I think that is Cas's arc for the rest of the year. Cas is the reason all the angels fell, or at least he feels responsible, so I think he will be the one to help fix it. It looked like Cas was leaving last night, and Sam was remaining behind by himself. I guess Sam will just be hunting alone. He seemed really disappointed that enough grace hadn't been pulled from him for the spell.

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  53. lala2January 22, 2014 at 11:42 AM

    I agree. I didn't get the impression that Sam was going to have anything to do w/the Gadreel situation last night. That seemed more like a Castiel plot while Dean dealt w/Abbadon. But if Jensen said Dean would get revenge, then maybe the boys team up to help Cas, or more likely Sam tags along while Dean and Cas take care of Gadreel.

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  54. lala2January 22, 2014 at 11:46 AM

    I would be thrilled if after these next two Sam-lite episodes, or is it going to be 3 more.... Sam gets what Dean always gets


    I would be SHOCKED if that happened! Shocked.

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  55. lala2January 22, 2014 at 11:52 AM

    Yeah . . . I don't think Sam will be linked to the angel story. Last year, Dean fans complained b/c he had no story. I have never been the type of Dean fan that has been clamoring for him to have a mytharc b/c he has always been important to the story to me. He has never felt pointless . . . . until the end of last year.


    Last season was the first time I felt Dean was completely pointless to the story. He was just there, serving everyone else's stories. I believe the same thing will occur w/Sam this year, but unlike Dean, Sam won't even speak to anyone or carry the "emotional burden" of the story. He'll just be in the background, doing nothing.

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  56. Caz74January 22, 2014 at 11:54 AM

    Yeah, i loved the way Cain wanted Dean to prove to him that what he had heard about him was right and he is a great hunter. That is one thing that appears to have been lost, the fact that the WInchester brothers are very good hunters.

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  57. lala2January 22, 2014 at 11:56 AM

    Well . . . maybe Sam will end up damning his soul to save Dean this time around. That would switch things up a bit. Cain did say there was a price to having the mark, and Dean didn't even ask him what the price was.

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  58. lala2January 22, 2014 at 11:58 AM

    The dialogue was very weird and quite forced. It felt off b/c Sam and Cas don't have a relationship. Last night was the most they have EVER interacted in the five years Cas has been on the show.

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  59. SupernaturallyMeJanuary 22, 2014 at 12:06 PM

    Possible, very possible. And it would be like a breath of fresh air. But Sam already did his self-sacrificial thing by doing the trials. And I really think this whole "Mark of Cain" thing is gonna turn into Dean's redemption story. Didn't one of the J's say it's gonna take something really big to re-unite the brothers?


    But hey, anything's possible I guess...

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  60. lala2January 22, 2014 at 12:09 PM

    You know . . . . I don't have a problem w/Castiel not wanting Sam to die. That's fine. He knows and likes Sam, I guess. My problem was w/the dialogue. It just felt weird to me and unnatural. What did Cas say again? "Nothing is worth losing you." The feeling behind those words is very strong, and I am surprised Castiel cares that much about Sam. I could see him saying that to Dean,but not Sam since he and Sam hardly interact. Maybe he could have said, "You shouldn't die for this." That would have felt more real.


    JMO.

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  61. NickJanuary 22, 2014 at 12:14 PM

    Just wondering, Dean's redemption story for what?

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  62. lala2January 22, 2014 at 12:25 PM

    I have no clue, what's going to happen. They changed up Cain's story, but didn't taking the mark cause him to become a demon or did that happen when he killed his brother? I can't remember.


    But you're probably right that that's unlikely to happen since Carver seems to hate the idea of the brothers damning their souls for each other, etc. I was just trying to think of a way Sam could be relevant to the rest of the season.

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  63. SupernaturallyMeJanuary 22, 2014 at 12:29 PM

    For giving letting an angel posses Sam without his permission...and then keeping it a secret. Not to mention his decision lead to a plethora of other bad stuff, like Kevin's death.


    Personally, I don't really blame Dean, just 'cause I understand his state of mind and I think that things like Kevin's death were really out of his control. But with both brothers being angry at Dean at the moment, I can see that he is the one seeking forgiveness here, hence a redemption storyline.

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  64. lala2January 22, 2014 at 12:36 PM

    I know that Castiel stopped before it could kill Sam, but if he couldn't heal him before extracting the grace, how come he suddenly could after extracting it?


    Great question!


    That's why they should have just had Cas say that extracting the grace was harming Sam's body so he was going to stop. They didn't need to say it was "reverting back to the state it was in before Gadreel" b/c that means Sam was being damaged at a "level even Cas can't heal."


    If the entire point of that scene was to show that Cas does care about Sam or relates to Sam in some way, all they had to say was the procedure was killing Sam so Cas stopped. That's all.

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  65. lala2January 22, 2014 at 12:38 PM

    "Both brothers?" Are you referring to Castiel?


    If you are, I don't think Castiel is angry w/Dean. I don't even think Sam is angry w/Dean . . . at least he doesn't appear to be angry w/him, IMO.

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  66. SupernaturallyMeJanuary 22, 2014 at 12:45 PM

    I meant Sam and Dean. Sam seems to hold at least some sort of resentment towards Dean, and Dean blames himself for everything.

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  67. NickJanuary 22, 2014 at 12:55 PM

    But by Dean letting an angel possess Sam he got exactly what he wanted; Sam alive. I don't think there's any point in Dean seeking a redemption arc until he acknowledges what he has done, and until he realises why what he did was wrong, and Idon't think Dean is capable of that because as long as Sam is saved then Dean will never think that what he did was wrong.


    The writers will also find it hard to justify a redemption storyline for Dean when they've set it up so that a hell of a lot of viewers don't think that he did anything wrong or that he was justified in doing what he did. It will just make Dean some sort of martyr, not someone in need of redemption.

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  68. percysownerJanuary 22, 2014 at 1:05 PM

    Sadly women are made to be fridged in this show. Even women from season one who had a fleshed out identity and a POV of their own and lots of initiative (cough Sarah). They now exist to make bad men good; fulfill a man's dream to be with an ex-porn star; or turn into a dog, wear a collar and call a man Master.

    Right now I'm fully expecting for Sam to find a reason to live and want to live just about the same time Dean decides to kill him for his own good.

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  69. percysownerJanuary 22, 2014 at 1:07 PM

    Yes, if something has to be cut for time we can count on it being scenes with any insight into Sam's POV.

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  70. SupernaturallyMeJanuary 22, 2014 at 1:10 PM

    I actually think that it's the other way around; that the writers set it up so that Dean would be in the wrong. Sure, they gave his perspective, but like I said before, a lot of bad stuff happened as a result of his decision. Now whether the set-up worked or not, is a different story. I've read a lot of comments that scorn Dean for for his actions, and just as many comments comprehend. To each their own, I suppose.

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  71. lilyJanuary 22, 2014 at 1:12 PM

    I loved everything about this episode.
    Dean/Crowley scenes - and so many of them. I am in heaven. Crowley once again proved why he is the king of hell and not some redheaded idiot
    Sam/Castiel bonding was nice too. They say so much without actually saying a lot and it comes off as very manly and sincere.
    Dean slapped some bad mojo mark on his arm without even listening to all the consequences. Predictable and stupid and yet so very Winchester of him.
    No metatron or Galadriel YAY!! So over them.

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  72. SPN FickleJanuary 22, 2014 at 1:34 PM

    Just 2 of their two minute scenes truly is more than they have ever interacted one on one in the entire show. I remember getting excited for a short scene in Hunter Heroici because Sam and Castiel were supposed to be together instead of Dean and Castiel. Then, when the scene came up, it was just Sam trying to talk Farrell back to reality inside of Farrell's head while Castiel looked on.

    The show has given them a few adversarial scenes that I felt were good and felt natural like the "Miracle! Now!" scene at the end of On The Head Of A Pin and the time when soulless Sam threatened Castiel and warned him that he never sleeps.... But most of their "I care about you scenes" have come from out of the blue and always seem to be just thrown in... with no history behind them. Like the time Anna wanted to kill Sam and Castiel tried to stop her because "Sam Winchester is my friend." I was like, "Huh? Don't you mean you don't want Dean to be sad?"

    Even this time, I know that Castiel had to hang at the bunker to heal Sam, but after that outburst, when he found out that Gadreel was in Sam, the writers made me feel that Castiel should be with Dean hunting Gadreel. They just never give me enough to understand how that relationship exists at all, except by extension. There isn't really any on screen history to explain most of their interactions, so it tends to come off as just thrown in for effect.

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  73. SPN FickleJanuary 22, 2014 at 1:39 PM

    Yeah lately every Thuhl, Dick, and demon can knock out or capture a Winchester without much effort, then bang! Dean is a kick-ass hunter again. I miss the days when it took 20 demons to slow them down (Jus in Bello).

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  74. lala2January 22, 2014 at 1:46 PM

    Ahhh.... Sam is definitely angry about being possessed, but I don't think he's extremely angry w/Dean. Again, I could be wrong, but I'm not getting a very angry vibe from him.


    I think Dean is angry w/himself right now and the situation.

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  75. lala2January 22, 2014 at 1:50 PM

    Sad, but true!

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  76. comicfangirlJanuary 22, 2014 at 2:31 PM

    Yeah Jus in Bello, those were the days before SPN was flooded with supporting cast.
    Nowadays the supporting cast mostly gets the glory and for that the "writers"
    just dumb down Sam and Dean to nearly incompetent hunters who need help
    and babysitting all the way. So not cool.

    Sam used to be the research Top Gun of the show finding all the information they needed in libraries or the net, and then Sam and Dean bagged those damn monsters for good all on their own.


    Well just as you can't go home again, you can't force the SPN writers to take their job more seriously.

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  77. Peter J4January 22, 2014 at 2:33 PM

    I'm hoping Abaddon won't die. It just seems too easy.


    I think Dean wants to save people too, but he was always forced into a violent role,from early childhood. Then all the years of torture and torturing in Hell. So how much of that really leaves him? I'd like to see the struggle.


    I think we will still see Sam with the angel story, as he's clearly still fighting to get revenge on Gadreel, although most of that may be put off until late in the season.


    Right now I just want Sam to have a POV and have his own identity again.

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  78. Peter J4January 22, 2014 at 2:36 PM

    I think Dean is in need of seeing his behavior is toxic and hurts him and those around him. He's not a bad person. He's not in need of redemption in that sense. What he needs is something that makes him question his entire existence. This season has been doing that.

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  79. lala2January 22, 2014 at 2:38 PM

    What he needs is something that makes him question his entire existence. This season has been doing that.


    Hmmm . . . . . how do you figure?

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  80. percysownerJanuary 22, 2014 at 2:48 PM

    You know, Sam doesn't have to do anything to earn a place in Hell, Dean just has to come to that conclusion. If you look at Dean's actions this year as being about trusting Sam then the parallel with Cain is striking. Cain said Lucifer was going to make Abel "his pet". Cain made the deal because he didn't believe or trust Abel to be be able (pun semi-intended) to do the right thing on his own. This is a lot like how Dean views Sam. In fact, Cain was willing to KILL Abel due to his judgement of him. As a note, we only get Cain's POV on this. Abel has been silenced on what exactly was going on with him and Lucifer.

    Dean, for all his protestations about not being able to let Sam die, has been very able to let Sam die when he thinks Sam isn't "human". He was wiling to let him die in the panic room in Levee. He was willing to kill him to get to Gadreel, until Cas reigned him in. So if someone or something can convince Dean that Sam isn't human enough he may well decide that killing Sam is more than acceptable.

    I do find it interesting that Lucifer has come up so much this season. Gadreel let Lucifer into the garden. Cain made a deal with Lucifer to "save Abel". They may be planning a Lucifer breakout or at least convincing Dean there is a Lucifer breakout so he can "save" Sam by killing him.

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  81. sharonallyJanuary 22, 2014 at 2:59 PM

    They are not going to do that . As like season 4 it will be Dean's pov and the mytharc. Even now the follow up to Sam's possession has been a Dean heavy episode and a little bit of Sam . I think the Gadreel sl was designed to get Dean to a certain place where they could do the Cain sl for him.

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  82. FredaJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:03 PM

    Out of curiosity, did you think the Sam scenes were pointless in this episode?

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  83. IndyJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:09 PM

    The Sam/Cas scenes truly felt like a waste of time, even though I enjoyed their interaction. Character development is supposed to happen within a story that is actually going somewhere. You can't write a scene just to make two characters "bond", and then dismiss the entire thing. Anyone who has ever written anything knows that.


    But then again, this episode was one of Robbie Thompson's best. I was expecting something worse (Bitten, LARP...). I actually really liked it.

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  84. FredaJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:09 PM

    While people have said the next few episodes will be Sam-light, that doesn't necessarily mean that we won't see more of his POV, emotions or connections to other people. For instance, this episode was pretty light on Sam and actual screen time, but I thought that they showed great insight into the character. They had him connect with Cas in a way we have never seen before -- like they were close friends, and not brother's friend and friend's brother. If the writing allows, we can have both - Dean myth arc, and Sam not being sidelined for another season.

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  85. Peter J4January 22, 2014 at 3:14 PM

    I think that later season 5 did show some of this. Sam seemed concerned about Cas during his fall. He was friendly to Cas even as Dean and Bobby were harsh toward him. He asked Cas to look out for Dean and Bobby. The problem was this was all dropped in season 6, because Gamble or Singer or whoever wanted Misha gone. And since then it hasn't been built up again.


    The scenes here were very much tell-not-show, but I hope maybe it's a groundwork to something more.

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  86. Peter J4January 22, 2014 at 3:15 PM

    I'm not sure it's lately. Remember when Dean was knocked out and tied to a tree? The writing has always been inconsistent about how strong or capable Dean and Sam are.

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  87. Peter J4January 22, 2014 at 3:16 PM

    The show had started dumbing Dean and Sam down even before Jus in Belo. Bela ran circles around them.


    I think it's mostly just plot-driven. They're geniuses or dumb depending on what the story needs.

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  88. IndyJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:19 PM

    My favorite part of this episode was Tara. Badass female hunters FTW! Sadly she got killed before we even got to know her.

    I also loved Cain and his interaction with Dean. And I don't care what anyone says, that "plot twist" at the end was great.

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  89. FredaJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:22 PM

    I agree with a lot of the points previously made, just wanted to add a slightly different point of view on "Nothing is worth losing you." Cas had just experienced humanity for the first time - he didn't realize that a lot of life is fleeting, it changes, and small things are precious. He has a new and strong appreciation for it. So, when he said, "Nothing is worth losing you," I took it less as 'you' meaning Sam specifically and more like 'nothing is worth losing anyone's life."

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  90. IndyJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:25 PM

    Robbie Thompson actually tweeted that he re-watched 5x13 and 6x20 when he wrote this episode, so he probably didn't miss the bloodline thing! I guess that means we will find out more in a later episode.

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  91. comicfangirlJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:33 PM

    Then I stand corrected and share the hope the Cain bloodline thing will be explained in a later episode.

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  92. tvmonkeyJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:55 PM

    Interesting theory, that would play into Sam's suicidal storyline this season if he finally saves Dean and ends up damning his soul I think he would be ok with it. He would finally feel like he was worthy because he saved Dean and honestly I dont think Sam will care where he ends up when he's dead.

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  93. tvmonkeyJanuary 22, 2014 at 3:58 PM

    The mark thing wold be something big especially if they find out a consequence of it is something bad for Dean even if it feels a bit like a re-hashing of the trials.

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  94. tvmonkeyJanuary 22, 2014 at 4:00 PM

    but the show has told us that Dean wasnt wrong in what he did so why would they write a redemption arc. Seems to me both are on some kind of guilt fuelled suicide mission.

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  95. tvmonkeyJanuary 22, 2014 at 4:05 PM

    yes I did

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  96. comicfangirlJanuary 22, 2014 at 4:06 PM

    True, but to me it somewhat got worse after Swan Song with making the brothers too dumb over long periods of time on purpose.
    Sorry but I do expect professional writers to do better then fan fiction writers would......okay, okay once again I expect far too much I know.

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  97. tvmonkeyJanuary 22, 2014 at 4:08 PM

    Robbie Thomas is a favourite amongst the Dean fans perhaps because he only really writes for Dean, look how oiss poor the Sam part was written. He clearly didnt give a shit and just throew in some rubbish to comply with Jared's contractual obligations.

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  98. tvmonkeyJanuary 22, 2014 at 4:21 PM

    and Sam will make the descion to leave Dean dead, I think that would be a nice way to end Carver's death to the co-dependancy arc.

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  99. Michele KlingerJanuary 22, 2014 at 4:55 PM

    it was amazing. I loved that it was cas/sam, dean/crowley and Tim Omundson was such a good fit for Cain. I love him on Psych and was so excited to see him guest star on this

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  100. sharonallyJanuary 22, 2014 at 5:37 PM

    I think it showed some Sam insight but it was all skirting around any genuine issues that the possession brought up given Sam's history. Sam gets healed again by the touch of Castiel so it was all pretty samey really.

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  101. tvmonkeyJanuary 22, 2014 at 5:55 PM

    Jared's 2nd born

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  102. lala2January 22, 2014 at 6:45 PM

    I could get on board w/that interpretation. I think it makes sense. I do wish that had been the line though instead of the line we got. Maybe, "Life is precious" or something like that.


    The line we got was so personal . . . at least that's how I interpreted it, and it just doesn't make much sense - to me - given Sam and Cas's relationship.

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  103. lala2January 22, 2014 at 6:48 PM

    I don't think Sam will care either. I don't think Sam views his life as worth very much so if he dies saving Dean or the world or making something "right," he will be happy.

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  104. IndyJanuary 22, 2014 at 6:51 PM

    I would quite like that, IF there's going to be a season 10 with both characters.

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  105. NickJanuary 22, 2014 at 7:04 PM

    I really wouldn't mind that. It would free Dean of the 'burden' of having to watch out for Sam and it would free Sam from the burden of never being seen as anything other than the baby brother, and all the constraints that brings. A death for either character would free them both, and it's not as if death is the worst thing that can happen to a person on SPN.

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  106. lala2January 22, 2014 at 7:08 PM

    I'd even go a step further and say the sole purpose of the Gadreel sl seems to be to further Dean's character and teach him a lesson that only Carver thinks he needs to learn.


    I'll reserve final judgment, but this sl hasn't done much for Sam, and it hasn't impacted him in any significant way.

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  107. lala2January 22, 2014 at 7:13 PM

    I wish I could appreciate the Sam/Cas scenes, but I feel like some beats from the story were missing. I actually think it would have been nice - and more realistic - to show them kind of awkward w/each other, and then having a conversation where they bond a bit. To go from virtually no contact to hugs and deeply personal pleas ("Nothing is worth losing you") was just too much for me to take and believe. They don't have that kind of relationship. They can, but they don't have it now so why write it as if they do.

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  108. lala2January 22, 2014 at 7:21 PM

    I found them pretty pointless too.


    We knew that Sam felt guilty about Kevin's death. We know that Sam is willing to die to "make things right." We knew his self-esteem was in the crapper, and has been since S5. We didn't learn anything new about Sam in the episode.


    I was hoping to hear more from Sam on this angel possession and how he feels about it. I don't want to guess at his feelings. If he feels violated, I want to hear it. Some have stated that Sam's very angry w/Dean, but I'm not seeing that. He seems more angry the Dean left, but again, I don't know b/c Sam is not saying anything.


    I think last night's episode was more about Castiel and furthering his character development than Sam, which is fine. I have no problem w/that, but I would like for this storyline that we spent the entire first half of the season to have some impact on the person it was done to in some interesting, meaningful way.

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  109. lala2January 22, 2014 at 7:48 PM

    I'm glad it wasn't just me.

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  110. Patrick MaloneyJanuary 22, 2014 at 8:40 PM

    I am not complaining about what it sets up, I'm complaining about the way it did it

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  111. NickJanuary 22, 2014 at 9:03 PM

    May I ask, what insight did we get into Sam here that we didn't already know prior to this episode? We already knew he blamed himself for everything (oh, if only he'd closed the Gates of Hell!), that he was suicidal, that he found no worth in anything he did (which ties in nicely with what he said last year about wanting his life to mean something). I don't remember anything new coming out of it. Unless Castiel was lying about the grace (and if he was then it says more about Castiel than Sam), then what happened with Sam in this episode was pretty pointless. It was nice to see Sam and Castiel have the chat but it essentially served no purpose.

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  112. Carolina GaetanoJanuary 23, 2014 at 12:49 AM

    Well, he didn't ask 'cause he doesn't care: he thinks he needs to pay for Kevin's death and that he will be the one to pay all consequences, so...

    I think that the stupid one, in this episode, was Tara making a hole in the floor instead of scraping off the painting. Such a pity.

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  113. kerindaJanuary 23, 2014 at 1:02 AM

    really? well they should make time or I am done with it.

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  114. kerindaJanuary 23, 2014 at 1:29 AM

    YA! the baby so cute love the name too. mark will be so happy to hear that his last name is the baby first name.

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  115. JennaJanuary 23, 2014 at 1:37 AM

    This episode was just awesome! I really liked seeing Dean and Crowley work together. You know that Dean hates working with Crowley because he was ready to kill him right in that bar. Then Crowley mentions that he needs Dean's help to find the only weapon that can kill a Knight of Hell. So I can see why Dean would go along with it. I did kinda suspect that Crowley was up to something because at the bar when he looked over his shoulder and then after they left you saw the demon, I was wondering how Crowley could not see that demon.
    I loved Cain! Such an awesome job by Timothy Omundson. I forgot that he was gonna be in an episode until I saw the promo. I loved how Cain was all calm and not trying to kill them. He just stuck to the whole "I'm retired" thing. I liked how they changed up the story of Cain and Abel. I also liked seeing the humanity in Cain via his willingness to stop killing for the woman he loved. I suspected that Abaddon pissed Cain off somehow when they mentioned her. Cain was calm, but you could tell that them mentioning her struck a never. I was yelling at Dean when he wanted to search Cain's house while Cain was in town. I know that they need the blade, but this is Cain and he's gonna catch them. I think my favorite part of this entire episode was when Cain watched Dean fight. I don't know what I love about that scene. I just know that I love it. Crowley played his part very well. Acting like he was afraid of Cain and then in the end he was just playing Dean in order to get what he wanted. I liked how the writers reminded us that Crowley is the King of Hell and not a friend. The last episode kinda made me forget that, but this episode reminded me of what Crowley is.
    Sam and Castiel are quite a pair. I like that they showed us just Cas and Sam time because we don't get a lot of that. I do love how Cas misses PB&J sandwiches from when he was human. I also like how he stopped extracting Gadreel's grace from Sam. Even though I would've been tempted to keep going so that we could find Gadreel. I'd realize it was wrong though. I wanna tell Cas that Gadreel is working for Metatron because Cas is gonna go look for Metatron. I really liked the Cas and Sam hug. It was sweet, yet awkward.
    All in all this was a great episode. These past 2 episodes have been the best so far. I really hope that they bring Timothy back. He is so great at playing Cain. They left the possibility open so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

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  116. SPN FickleJanuary 23, 2014 at 5:41 AM

    That great revelation he shared with Dorothy were a couple of lines about his bad luck with homes... He also had a couple of lines with Charlie, which never happens.

    I was never really conscious of the inequities between the characters when I first started watching because I started watching in the middle of season 3... Malleus Maleficarum was my first live episode. I bought the fist 2.5 seasons on iTunes and watched them over the weekend and was hooked. Then we had the writers strike and things were changed around to end without 6 episodes.

    So, when season 4 started with a very heavy Dean episode where Sam didn't even appear for the first 15 minutes or so, I expected to get something more about Sam in the next episode, but it leaned Dean as well... Then, after Sam was in In The Beginning for just 40 seconds I just about had a heart attack. I had survived the whole summer with zero Winchesters and they were going to totally hide one of them?!? From that point forward I have been trying to fill that gap, but it never happens. We didn't get even a nominal Sam episode until 4x09, I Know What You DId Last Summer, and it started off with Anna and her obsession with Dean. The. Dean. Then, that was followed up by our introduction to Allistair and this was the episode that I had been waiting for since last Spring?!?

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  117. SPN FickleJanuary 23, 2014 at 6:03 AM

    I did see Sam as more forgiving towards Castiel, but then Castiel only talks to Dean. I know some of that is Jared's tendency to prank people during their coverage... but not all of it. Jensen pranks him too.... The writers just have Sam off screen for too much of the time.

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  118. AlineJanuary 23, 2014 at 8:37 AM

    I don't think Dean asked about consequences because Dean doesn't think about consequences. He never has. It's usually a case of do the deed and pick up (or have someone else pick up) the pieces later.


    Add to that, apart from the deal in season 2, the consequences of Dean's actions have rarely, if ever, been paid by Dean (and there were consequences of Deans demon deal on Sam as well). The consequences of Dean letting an angel and demon violate his brother were paid by Kevin and by Sam. The consequences of his constant berating and punishing of Sam who made the mistake of believing his brother was dead and who was too weak to stop himself from imploding after it, were also paid by Sam, whom Dean drove to the verge of suicide. There were no consequences to Dean not trying to get Castiel out of Purgatory, even though he knew where he was, knew he was alive and thought himself responsible. The consequences of Dean befriending a vampire were paid by Martin, (who was blamed for it) and Sam, as Dean used Benny as a stick to beat Sam with. The consequences of Dean killing Amy were paid by her son, who either has to kill to survive or starve to death. The consequences for the role Dean played in starting the Apocalypse were paid by Sam. There were no consequences to Dean's mindwipe of Lisa and Ben. The consequences of Dean persuading Sam not to close the gates of hell will be paid by all the people killed by demons and all the vessels the demons possess. There have never been any consequences shown when Dean trusts demons or angels.


    The show have always gone to remarkable lengths to justify or whitewash Dean's decisions. and consequences of his actions This unfortunately makes the idea of him actually having to face the consequences of his actions something the audience isn't in favour of seeing because what he does, he seemingly does with the 'best intentions'. (Sam and Castiels actions are also done with the best intentions but that never seems to matter to the show, or to Dean.)


    I agree with you on Tara though. She was made for the grave the moment she decided to shoot a hole in the floor.

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  119. Carolina GaetanoJanuary 23, 2014 at 4:56 PM

    I'm sorry, but my answer won't be as long and well put as yours: my English is rubbish.
    Yeah, you're right, Dean is a "shoot first, ask later" kind of guy, but it's not because he isn't the one to pay the consequences. I mean, he values every single life more important than his own, so it's not like he wanna play fire with someone else's skin or what. It's just who he is.
    And I think that Dean's actions are more often than not justified because he does what he does outta love. He's selfish (of course!), but not prideful like Sam and Cas have been.

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  120. Carolina GaetanoJanuary 23, 2014 at 5:24 PM

    I think that Dean was right to be angry at Sam who left him for dead WITHOUT ANY PROOF (italic, not screaming, I swear!). It was completely OOC of him, like his desire to kill Benny. Sam "our job is hunting evil" Winchester who wants to kill a vampire because it is a vampire? After letting go an innocent werewolf two episodes before? After Lenore?
    It was just bad writing to justify the conflict between the brothers. Really bad writing.

    And Martin has been killed in self defense: he was crazy, dangerous, ready to kill an innocent woman.

    PS: I've read your other post, may I answer here? For now, there is a HUGE difference between Dean's (Abaddon) and Sam's (Lilith) crusade.

    Dean hasn't done anything morally grey yet. Sam had killed an innocent woman, sucked her dry... just like the vampire he later wanted to kill.
    Plus, Dean isn't doing anything out of pride. Sam started the Apocalypse 'cause he was prideful and arrogant, Eric's words. I just agree.

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  121. AlineJanuary 23, 2014 at 9:27 PM

    In a world where people can be brought back from the dead with the drop of a hat, in a world where you have been lied to from day one, where would would you go to confirm Dean's death? Would you ask an angel or a demon for the 'truth'? Sam believed Dean was dead. Maybe he convinced himself Dean was dead so that he would go on. Maybe he thought he was in heaven, where else would he be? Hardly in Purgatory (which for monsters) or hell (because he hadn't done anything wrong to deserve hell) so why would Sam try to bring him back yet.

    Sam's desire to kill Benny was based on the fact that he was a vampire that Dean decided to keep secret,. Dean told Sam that he was he had changed when he came back from Purgatory, and he certainly was acting differently. The first time Sam met him, Benny had put Dean into a vampire next, thereby putting his brother in danger. Add to that, Dean had told Sam constantly, and he learned, that he was wrong to trust monsters. I believe that Lenore also succumbed and drank blood.

    There's no evidence that Martin was ready to kill an innocent woman, he was using her as bait. Sam and Dean used Michael as as bait for the shtriga in 'Something Wicked' (and I think that was Dean's idea), and the same way that Reggie and Tim used Lyndsey as bait in 'Free to Be You and Me'. It's what hunters do, use bait to kill the monster. Martin acted like most hunters we've seen on the show. Add to that, Benny had already scoffed Martin's hunting skills, so he obviously didn't think much of them so why the need to kill him? Why not just knock him out and leave?

    Carolina Gaetano, if you don't think that facilitating the violation of a living person, an act Dean knew that Sam did not want, (he had it tattooed on his chest, for heavens sake,) on two separate occasions to get what you want isn't a grey area then I don't know what to say to you. May I just point out that the 'innocent woman' that Sam killed and sucked dry was a demon who ate babies. (Might I also point out that Sam did this in order to try and stop Lucifer rising) Or if we're considering demons innocent now, might I remind of all the innocent men and women that Dean tortured and then killed in 'Let It Bleed' (unless, of course, the demons that Sam kills are innocent and the demons that Dean kills are all baddies?)

    We certainly differ on Dean not doing anything out of pride. Like I said, Dean used the power of Gadreel very quickly to do what he believed was right (re Castiel and Charlie) and he certainly was very keen to take the mark of Cain. I'll admit that I find it strange that you decide to believe what one showrunner said in one interview about Sam while ignoring other showrunners and actors. I mean, Carver and Padalecki both gave very good reasons why Sam didn't try to bring Dean back which you've dismissed yet you believe negative things said about him.

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  122. Carolina GaetanoJanuary 24, 2014 at 8:18 AM

    Kripke is the creator, not just the showrunner, and he has proved more than once to know what he was doing. Carver not so much. What Carver calls "character's growth", I call narrative inconsistency: Sam not even looking for his brother, Sam convincing himself that Dean was dead without any proof is OOC. The last two seasons have more plotholes than plot. That's why I believe in Kripke and not in Carver. And the latter has written some of my favourite episodes, in the past.

    Of course, I wasn't talking about the demon, but about the nurse it was possessing. Maybe you don't remember, but the demon hid and let the girl to be tortured instead. Sam sucked the girl, not the thing. And he didn't do that to stop Lucifer's rising per se, but to do it on his own terms, to prove something to himself and to his brother. Chuck told Sam that he was craving the power, the control. Sam himself admitted it later. But that is in the past, isn't it? I mean, Sam has made amends for everything he has ever done and more.

    We certainly differ on Dean doing things out of pride or out of love. For me, it's the latter. It's selfish, it's stupid, it's blind, but it is love: he does what he does because he can't stand to live without his loved ones, especially Sam.

    Speaking of consequences, not shutting the gates of hell it's on Sam and Dean both.
    Dean asked his brother to live, to keep fighting with him, and Sam CHOSE him, CHOSE to live.
    Sadly, two hours later he chose to die in vane too. Then, and only then, Dean chose for him. It was wrong, of course; it was morally grey, as you said; it was selfish. And it was the only way for Dean to keep his brother, his only family, alive.

    One last thing on Benny: you said "add to that, Dean had told Sam constantly, and he learned, that he was wrong to trust monsters", well, if that was the case, why did he let the werewolf run two episodes before (I'm talking about Bitten)? One year in Purgatory influenced Dean and his choices (he let the were-girl go too), but Sam's?
    "I believe that Lenore also succumbed and drank blood." Yeah, that's true, but even so Sam wanted her to live, 'cause it was Eve's fault. That's why I'm talking about bad writing. That's why I'm talking about OOC.
    Dean was OOC too resenting Sam on LOSING his soul, after everything happened in season six.
    Keeping Crazy-Martin alive was a risk, for Benny: even if he had run, Martin could have used his niece as a bait again. If not worse. Martin was insane, therefore dangerous. Like Dean said, he had it coming. Just like Gordon: Dean AND Sam wanted to kill him even before he was turned into a vampire for the exact, same reason.

    Sam KNOWS how other hunters see monsters, he was treated like one too. Still he sent a crazy one after Benny...
    Do you wanna continue this conversation somewhere else, on skype maybe? Chatting is easier, for me.
    Thank you for this, anyway =)

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  123. SPN FickleJanuary 24, 2014 at 2:04 PM

    Not prideful, I beg to differ. Both Winchesters display a strange combination of heroic self-sacrifice and pride. I believe that combination is why they are so brave. Dean pushes around people / beings that could squash him like a bug. Sam's pride became a bit more "in your face" when he was on demon blood and soulless. Castiel's god period was destructive to the max (power corrupts).

    My guess is Dean's will shine through with this Mark. If Cain was a self-sacrificing person, who sees himself in Dean, I believe that training the Knights and all of the horrible things he did were a result of the Mark's influence on him. When Sam was on demon blood (powerful) Pamela saw that he liked killing the demons... he wanted to be stronger than anyone -- my guess is because of his desire to be safe. I believe the Mark is going to turn Dean into a fighting machine (powerful) -- his goal will be to keep people safe, but that same type of powerful pride will, in my opinion, bite him in the end.

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  124. Carolina GaetanoJanuary 24, 2014 at 4:34 PM

    And I agree with you, but I think that choosing to carry the mark was not prideful per se =)

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  125. Carolina GaetanoJanuary 24, 2014 at 4:43 PM

    Again, I agree with you.
    I mean, I was condemning Sam for torturing and then killing an innocent and "awake" human being to drink her blood (and no, we don't see that happen in Swan Song or any other time), but I do miss the guys who thought about the human beings still trapped inside the demons.

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  126. LubbeelouJanuary 26, 2014 at 9:56 PM

    It's Lassie!! hehe :)

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  127. ScottAFebruary 5, 2014 at 2:59 AM

    Looks like you hit that one dead on!

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