Is this an example of what passes for justice in this new society that is forming within the prison walls? Or does justice have nothing to do with it?
I hope you all enjoyed Indifference as much as I did. I’m sure it will be regarded as one of the stronger episodes of the series. But for a few reasons, I decided to break from my usual episode review format this week to instead raise this question for discussion: What passes for justice after a zombie apocalypse?
Carol’s Crime
Carol explains to Rick that she killed Karen and David because their illness would have killed them all. In her eyes, she was “stepping up.” “We needed the bodies gone. We needed to stop it from spreading. They were the only ones who were sick. They were a threat. I was trying to save lives. I had to try. Somebody had to.”Rick tells Carol that once the others learn what she has done, they won’t want her with them, and that he doesn’t want her around his children. Both Rick and Carol in their acts are deciding the fate of others for the good of the group, in their eyes. They're acting as leaders. What’s interesting here is that Rick makes the decision to banish Carol when he is no longer the leader and no one else has had any input. No one had any input on Carol’s decision either, but she was part of the governing council - so she was officially a leader. Does Rick still have the authority to make a decision like that on behalf of the group?
Sheriff Rick
We first met Rick as a highly regarded and even-tempered lawman. He believed in right and wrong. He believed in the system he served. And he was willing to risk his life for his job. Upon waking up in a world that had ended, one of his first actions is to find his uniform and put his sheriff’s hat back on. It isn’t until season 2, when Rick begins to lose faith in his ideals, that he passes his hat on to his son.We were recently reminded of Rick’s former role when Tyreese appealed to Rick to find Karen’s killer. But Tyreese wasn’t looking for justice. He was looking for vengeance. He didn’t tell Rick to find the person and bring him to justice. He told Rick, “You find out who did this and you bring them to me.”
Like Carol, Rick has made decisions to kill – either directly or indirectly – on behalf of the group. He shot Dave and Tony, he killed Shane, and he led an attack on Woodbury to rescue Glenn and Maggie, which led to deaths on both sides. He was ready to execute Randall in season 2 before he realized Carl was there to witness the death. When he turned Tyreese and Sasha out of the prison in season 3, to what appeared to be a death sentence, Tyreese tells him that what happens to them would be on him.
Carol admits that their decisions are always in response to a threat, and are made so that “we” can live. It’s a kill-or-be-killed world, and Carol’s reasoning for killing Karen and David doesn’t sound all that different from Rick’s in seasons past. Her point of view is evident in her instruction to Lizzie: “And if it’s your life, or your sister’s life, you can’t be afraid to kill.”
In fact, Carol calls Rick on the parallels. She compares what she did to Rick killing Shane. Rick responds that Shane was going to kill him, to which she replies, “So were they. They were going to kill all of us.”
Rick hasn’t killed one of their own, though, and is that what it comes down to?
Discussion Questions:
- Can the ideal of justice exist in this world with no societal structure?- What would a system of justice look like in this world? What would the values be that support it?
- Do you think Rick was motived by justice or by something much more personal? Was the reason he didn’t want Carol around that she reminded him of a part of himself – a part of them all – that was changing and that he was trying to repress?
- What do you think will pass for justice when the group eventually meets up with The Governor (assuming they do)?
Great question/article Chris.
ReplyDeleteIt's a very gray area for me. I can see both sides, and I really don't know how to answer. I'm leaning more on the side of Carol as what she did was for the greater good.
I'm leaning toward Carol too. While she obviously made the wrong call in hindsight, I don't believe her actions were selfish, whereas with Rick, I think this is more about his own inner demons. He's afraid of becoming what he sees in Carol.
ReplyDeleteWhile what Carol did was wrong, I can definitely see her side of it, and if I was put in her position and I had to think about saving the greater good, then I might have done the same. I can see Rick's side of the argument, but banishing her and forcing her to fend for herself in that kind of world, that was giving her the death penality without trial and jury. He was judge, jury, executioner, and he has quite the cheek for condemning her when he had no right to.
ReplyDeleteWhile I think his assumption was that Carol would survive (not sure why that is since it's contrary to what we've seen in the past), I was very uncomfortable with everything about this decision. It would have been so much better if it had been majority rule. But then again, the majority might have voted to execute her. :(
ReplyDeleteI agree with Rick's decision and wish he had run it by the others first but ultimately I understand why he didn't.
ReplyDeleteCurious ... why do you think he didn't talk to others first?
ReplyDeleteI think Carol was more right than Rick. He saw Patrick and the zombie that used to sleepwalk while he was alive, he knows there's no way Karen and David would survive this yet he based his entire argument on the possiblity they might have survived something that has killed everyone who hs ever caught it. Karen and David were just zombies waiting to happen.
ReplyDeleteHowever, for the sake of the argument, I'd say they are both right because he did let Carol live where the Rick-that-steps-up would've just killed her on the spot so he definitely knew she had a point (he just didn't want to admit it to her)
Carol's parallel about Shane was faulty. Rick knew Shane intended to kill him. Carol didn't know for a fact that those infected people would infect and kill others. They still don't know the specifics of this virus. What Carol did is something The Governor would do to handle a situation and that's exactly the kind of thinking they need to avoid seeping into the group if they all want to keep any shred of humanity. TWD is big on asking the questions "at what cost?" and "is this the way we want to live?" and I'm guessing that, in Rick's mind, Carol's actions would set a bad precedent for the group if they were allowed to stand.
ReplyDeleteMore than becoming Carol, I believe Rick is just afraid to lose another Lori.
ReplyDeleteHe did for him, he said so himself. I'm leaning towards Rick just can't habndle the thought of Carol's death, so he would rather send her away than to go back and hand her over to Tyreese.
I'm not sure but I think he was putting it on himself ultimately and trying not to burden the others with having to decide what to do about her. What she did was going to create conflict just like it has with the viewers. Some would agree/side with her and others would disagree with what she did and want her to be punished (possibly killed). The division would likely fracture the group as a whole. I don't doubt that there will still be division now but the cause of the conflict isn't there anymore which might make it easier for them to move past it and the burden of the decision is on Rick only which is part of his role as leader (and imo he always has been de facto leader council or no).
ReplyDeleteRick was clearly struggling with this, so its hard to stay mad at someone who's also punishing himself.
ReplyDeleteIf he wouldn't have been crying, and looking back, and hanging on to that watch for dear life, maybe I would've felt different in the long run. As it plays out, Rick was giving up something he held dear to him too.
No, Rick was not motivated by justice, but by concern that Carol has become a danger. Her actions have been sneaky and he can't trust her. This is what he told her, and I believe him. And I do agree with his assumption that a flu (or a bacteria, for that matter) is not necessarily a death sentence. Carol is not a medical person and her assumption that the infected would die for sure is wrong. She has nothing to back up her belief except her intuition. In fact, people recover from the worst cases of flu, even strains that we don't have immunity for, without intervention except symptom relief. I'm with Hershel on this one.
ReplyDeleteThing is: Rick's solution when someone has become a danger is what he did against the Governor, Shane and Randall, not what he did for Carl
ReplyDeleteDo you think Rick was afraid that Carol might become a threat to the community? It's possible, but I read his concern stemming more from a strong distaste/fear of this quality (call it losing your humanity), which is rooted in his doubts about being able to control it in himself. Rick almost seems to be treating responsibility like an addiction this season - something he fears imbibing in for fear he won't be able to stop himself from losing himself. While there are no doubt other factors and concerns at play here, because motivation is never that simple, I see this as being one of them and possibly why Rick had such a strong reaction.
ReplyDeleteI agree Carol's actions are on the Shane/Governor end of the spectrum. OK, not quite as bad as the Governor, but certainly in the Shane range.
ReplyDeleteI don't know how Rick can avoid letting it into the group though. There was a scene with Carol and Lizzie at the beginning, with Lizzie talking about how everyone changes. She's talking about the walker sickness, but it seemed to be a metaphor of this behavioral change many of the characters have been struggling with. It seems like with Carol a better approach to try to reform some of this extreme behavior rather than to cast her out. Or maybe he thinks she's beyond that point.
I agree that this wasn't easy for Rick. Poor Rick is always struggling with something!
ReplyDeleteTrue. I think a good part of his action was safety concerns, for Carol as well.
ReplyDeleteI think his distate was because she didn't mention Sophia more than anything else: Carol told the couple she had two children, that one of her daughters was sick. She never once mentioned Sophia, nor that Rick had to shot her little girl when she turned.
ReplyDeleteFor some reason, this set him off. It wasn't until Rick started talking about Lori that it hit me Rick still wished for Carol to be that girl's mother and for him to eat bad pancakes.
The choices of justice in this new world were hard. In the old world murder would've been punished with prison time but in this new world prison time is their reward. Prison is where they're safe. Locking Carol up as a prisoner would've only taken away a working hand who's not earning their keep. Banishing her wasn't the best idea either. Who's to say she won't join another group with vengeance on her mind. I would rather have her nearby so I could watch her. I don't agree with either person. Both should've spoke with the council before making their decisions.
ReplyDeleteI have to disagree with you because there was no guarantee Karen and David had the sickness that killed Patrick. Andrea was sick but she lived. Karen and David may have been zombies walking but they were also in isolation where if they did turn then they wouldn't have been able to hurt anyone. Carol made the wrong choice. She ended two innocent lives to save others who are losing their lives anyway.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest I don't care for Carol that much. In my view she's selfish. She kept Sophia in an abusive position with her father all so she wouldn't have to face being alone. She didn't search for Sophia when she went missing and she treated Rick like crap over her disappearance when he was the only one who risked his life to save her. Carol didn't attend Sophia's memorial either and then she called her "someone else's slideshow". She taught kids how to use weapons without the parent's permission and then she killed two people without provocation. Not to mention she was ready and willing to leave Sam behind without knowing if he was dead or not. Lastly I have to mention that this run was the first time Carol had left the prison to help the group since the day they got there.
ReplyDeleteRick knew what Coach would do to Carol once he found out and decided to save her life by pushing her away.
ReplyDeleteKaren was coughing like Sansha before she enteredquarantine, and Rick saw the bloody pillow in David's cell: there's no way they didn't have what killed Patrick.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Andrea only had a fever, and she died long before the outbreak in cell block D.
There is a massive difference between right and wrong here... given that they live in such a life or death situation its so hard to relate to. I think Rick was right, but I can see why Carol did it but I could never condone what she did when there was a few different solutions (locking them up in a quarantine cell etc).
ReplyDeleteThe other side of the coin is, if Carol had stayed and Rick told people what she did (I could never see that being kept a total secret) the group would shatter and Carol would probably be killed by Tyreese. Rick did the best for everyone. I don't see Carol as a dangerous person, but she murdered two people. Rick giving her supplies and sending her on her way was probably the best thing to do.
The blood on the pillows were from having a knife shoved into the brains. A cough doesn't mean you're sick. Karen was doing nothing but coughing. Sasha could barely walk and she was covered in sweat. I know when Andrea died and that the sickness had nothing to do with her death. My point is just because someone's sick and coughing doesn't mean their on death's door. Just like Rick said when he banished Carol "they might've lived."
ReplyDeleteProblem is: Rick saw Patrick and the sleepwalker dude too, he knows how fast this kills and to how many people.
ReplyDeleteSending Carol away is not only the most effective way to protect her from Tyreese, but also from the outbreak and Lizzy's sickness (and potential death).
If Rick wanted Carol dead then the easiest way to do that was to keep her around.
I think what you said about the group shattering is key here. The upside I see to Rick sending Carol away was that it prevented the ugly debate about whether she should be punished, and if so by what means.
ReplyDeleteBut in doing so, Rick essentially took this decision into his own hands - which sets a bad precedent for a group that was moving away from a dictatorship and toward a more democratic/council-style of government. I'd like to know more about the set up of the council. Were the members elected?
I think that may have been a factor, although Rick didn't say as much. But if that was the key, shouldn't it have been Carol's choice? Carol told Rick she could handle Tyreese. She seemed to have a relationship with Tyreese, and maybe she could have brought Tyreese around to accepting what she had done.
ReplyDeleteHa! Great point about the prison being the reward. Agree with you that the decision should have been made after the illness had passed, with input from other council members.
ReplyDeleteI was wondering about Rick's reaction around Sophia - what he was thinking. It was hard to tell. I can't imagine that he thought she didn't love Sophia, but he seemed to be recoiling a little at her toughness. I was interpreting that as relating that to himself - those moments he started to turn off his humanity - and fear that it would happen again. I think he's still holding on to hope for a world where bad pancakes are made because families want to eat pancakes on Sundays. When you said he wished Carol to be the girls' mother, did you mean Lori? That's an interesting thought. Thanks for sharing!
ReplyDeleteRight Rick did see what the disease does but if the disease would've taken Karen or David's life the prison would've still been safe (at that time). Karen and David were quarantined. They were locked up inside a cell where if they did turn they couldn't do anything but wander aimlessly around the cell until someone took them down. I do agree with you that Rick did what he did to protect Carol but I also believe he did it to protect the prison group too. Carol has proven she'll do whatever it takes to protect others even if it means taking lives. Tyreese would've almost surely have killed her which would've led to someone most likely killing him in retaliation such as Daryl. What Rick did was for the benefit of everyone and he chose to carry it all on his own shoulders.
ReplyDeleteRick's whole point was that David & Karen might have get better - just like zombies might one day just stop walking among them - not that their sickness was already contained, the only Doctor in that prison told them everyone who was exposed to Patrick was at risk.
ReplyDeletePatrick already gave it to two people, Karen and David would only give it to two people each (if not more), those people would give it to 4 people each and so on, that's how these things spread.
The prison only made it go faster because they were all in a confined space.
In many ways, I think Rick has already replaced Lori with Carol but he didn't notice it himself until the pancakes scene. I think he did this for himself because Rick can't afford to lose Carol, it would sent back to the state he was when after Lori died all over again.
ReplyDeleteOne way to contain it is for Rick to think of Carol as Sophia's mother, the same Sophia that he shot. Its when Carol says things like she has two daughters that sends Rick back iinto a reality where there're no sunday's pancakes anymore.
In the end though the sickness spread regardless of Carol's actions. Her actions only caused unnecessary drama within the prison walls.
ReplyDeleteThen again, its exactly what Tyreese would have done if Karent would have been the one to kill Carol instead, the only difference is that he would've left the group besides her.
ReplyDeleteThis is happening not because Carol killed David, but because Tyreese demanded the person who did this to his girlfriend.