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Supernatural – Episode 9.08 – The Gripe Review

30 Nov 2013

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After last week’s Bambi-esque episode I considered excluding the Monster of the Week episodes from the Gripe review. They generated little debate, mostly served as padding in the season, and often had no impact on the show or its characters. Then “Rock and a Hard Place” happened.

So what was wrong with this episode that caused me to change my mind? In a word, EVERYTHING. It was the worst episode of the season and it hit me like a two ton anvil.

I am not alone in this, though (disclaimer!) I don’t claim to speak for everyone.

I am helped in this review by our very own Veronika, who will tell us about her views after I finish listing the gripes. Also backing our claims are others who commented on this week’s Supernatural in detail (including Laura Prudom) and equally thought of it as full of problems.

So with no further fluff, let the griping begin.

Gripe #1: Are we watching a sitcom?

We’re still watching Supernatural, right? Because based on this season’s most recent episodes, I could swear I was watching a mix of “2 and ½ Men” and “Dark Shadows.” What’s with the focus on sex and dating? And now virginity and more sex? I know it has been a part of the show since the beginning, but it was usually offered in small doses, as a joke here and there, sometimes funny, most times not. I could take it with a grimace and pass it up as the writers trying too hard. But a whole episode dedicated to it, in a show that’s supposed to be about monsters and demons? Did they forget how “Season 7: Time for a Wedding” was received?

Gripe #2: Enough with the abstinence shaming.

We get it. You think sex is the greatest thing in the world. You say it in every episode. You make our favorite characters drool over it, talk about it, fantasise it, act like horny teens over and over, and drop their well-established personalities when faced with the possibility of it. No one can accuse you of sex shaming on this show.

But I will accuse you of the opposite, whatever you want to call it. Truth is, oh dear writers of Supernatural, there are people out there who don’t think like you do, people who don’t prioritise sex like their lives depended on it. Some are asexual, some choose to remain virgins until marriage for cultural or religious reasons, some have had traumatising experiences in the past that makes sex unenjoyable to them. There are a million reasons why a person might not want to engage in sex.

None of those people deserve to be ridiculed by a TV show.

Let’s observe how this episode deals with this issue. From the moment the chastity group is mentioned you could tell it’s going to be a running joke. The person receiving them, Ms. Fuschau, is a cartoon character. Her voice, expressions, even the way she walks reminds me of a redhead version of Tweety from the Looney Tunes. This conveniently forces you to not take anything she says seriously. And why should you? She’s part of that insane group that thinks people can abstain from sex. Oh the insanity!

It just keeps getting worse. From Sam and Dean’s reaction after she tells them the group’s mandate, to Dean’s awkward speech about why he joined the group, it is all designed to club you over the head with how silly and fake not wanting to have sex is. These women are kidding themselves. They aren’t serious about wanting to stay virgins; they just haven’t had the chance to get laid. Look at how they all cringe and lose it when Dean describes what he’d do to them during sex.

This is not funny. It’s offensive, and to a large group of people who have chosen to live their lives in a certain way. Please spare me your inappropriate, juvenile judgment of something that isn’t your business Supernatural. I’m neither a virgin nor a religious person and I felt insulted.

Gripe #3: Is this Dean Winchester or Stifler from the American Pie movies?

And of course, when a writer wants to make a statement, or joke, about sex, they immediately choose poor Dean Winchester as their favorite mouthpiece. Their excuse, which I also heard from some fans who defended this episode, is that Dean was portrayed as a ladies man since season one.

Yes, a ladies man, which would mean he would know how to play it cool and sway the ladies with style, like Neal Caffrey from White Collar. Was Dean like that in this episode? Because to me he looked more like Stifler from American Pie, a horny, desperate guy who thinks with his little guy.

Let’s watch his behavior. He approaches the hottest girl in the group with the cheesiest one liner out there. When she stays professional and blows him off he doesn’t change his tune. It’s bad enough that he’s trying to flirt with a counselor from a chastity group, but when she shows she’s not interested – which is when most guys usually back off – he doesn’t give up.

He follows her home, supposedly to protect her from the bad guys who have killed her friends, while she goes to get some books. If anyone had any doubts that that wasn’t really his intention the script helps us by showing him act like Pepe LePew the moment she takes off her shirt, piled on by porn music and close up shots of her “bewbs.” Just to hammer the point in that Dean is still thinking about boinking her, and that her lack of interest hasn’t changed his mind one bit.

But then a breakthrough happens. Just as his juvenile quest to get laid leads him to ignore Sam’s call (God forbid those people dying need someone to save them) he is faced with the reality of just how much on a different page she is. Here he is, checking out her body like a dirty old uncle, lighting up candles in broad daylight, and smirking ear to ear, when she starts crying over her dead friends. Sure this must be the point Dean, a decent, adult man, would finally give up and decide to be there just to comfort her, right?

But no. Because she asks him to pray with her, and that’s silly, just like virginity and abstinence is. So let’s pretend we’re on board, and wait for the right opportunity, while giving her ass one last check. Later we will rummage through her drawers and find something important that will sure turn her around. Which brings us to Gripe number 4.

Gripe #4: You think you are elevating sex worker but you are really insulting them.

Words cannot describe how disgusted I felt when Dean found out about Suzy’s past. I have to restrain myself from turning my thoughts into a rant, so I first quote some of what other people have said about it.

From Laura Prudom’s article:
It’s rare that I ever find Dean Winchester unattractive, but I can honestly say that the scene in which he charmed his way into Suzy’s pants was repugnant on several levels. If a woman tells you that she’s uprooted her life and changed her identity to escape the “horrible” person she used to be, objectifying her based on things she did as that person — and is clearly embarrassed about now — is neither appealing nor excusable.
And from an Anonymous commenter on http://onamelancholyhill.tumblr.com/post/68235040707/being-an-ex-sex-worker-i-found-this-episode-incredibly
Being an ex sex worker, I found this episode incredibly disturbing. Like seriously- you recognize me from somewhere, want to have sex with me/find out who I am, so you insist to come over to my house for one reason or another that isn't about sex, rummage around my stuff, find out I'm from your fav. porno, I tell you I'm ashamed, you say I shouldn't be, like I'm not gonna be creeped out? Sex on this show is the scariest thing.
How could someone watch this and not find Dean’s behavior offensive? You found those DVD’s snooping in her drawers; she didn’t show them to you. So making a reference to them when you don’t know how she feels about them is rude. Then, when she politely tells you she left that life behind and wants to have nothing to do with it, you still won’t back down? You keep making references and mentioning scenes from her videos? Is that – you objectifying a woman and reducing her to a profession she clearly doesn’t want to talk about - supposed to be attractive, or empowering? In what universe?

If Suzy was a real woman, and not the product of some clueless writer’s imagination, she would’ve punched Dean in the nose right before throwing him out of the door. But since she isn’t, and the show’s message is that sex trumps everything even if all odds are against it, she finally relents to Dean’s Stifler charms and they have sex. The End.

Counter Argument: When I brought up some of these gripes on a message board the opposition told me the episode was sex positive, because those women chose to have sex and found it satisfying. I wished that was true so I could give this barrage of misogyny some credit. But it isn't. Because at the end, when Suzy is talking to another girl in the sewer trap, neither of them think anything positive about sex. Instead they tell each other they weren’t strong enough to resist it and hope that God forgives them. And we are back were we started, to shaming.

I was going to talk about how boring this whole story was, how it was a remake of the season 6 episode “You can’t Handle the Truth” with a different Goddess and a less original subject. And how they had a bunch of people stuck in a dark, dank place and didn't provide even one scary moment. But I’ll abstain from that because this review is already too long and I don’t want to take the attention away from the main gripes. People have enough to talk about me hating on Dean as it is. And Veronika has some things to say about the episode too. So I'll pass the mic to her.


Review from Veronika 

Welcome from my side. I want to preface my opinion piece with the announcement that my interpretation does not reflect a general consensus, but rather my own gripes that I had with this particular episode. And most of them were already mentioned. However, I feel the need to elaborate on some points.

Religion

Supernatural's portrayal of various religious beliefs can only be considered one giant stereotype in "Rock and a Hard Place". Aside from the historical polytheism in which Pagan religious movements are equated with devil worship (cue laugher), we are apparently supposed to find chastity groups hilarious. Call me unimpressed.

Essentially, the episode continued disrespecting individual beliefs for the sake of comedy. One point being virginity vs. "impurity". To start with one issue, explain to me why the concept of virginity is supposed to be funny? The entire scene with Sam and Dean confronting this group is nothing more than slapstick comedy of the bad kind. Even worse to me, it’s done at the expense of real life issues.

Virginity

Being a virgin is indeed a social construct. Additionally, the stigma surrounding people who never had sexual encounters is a rather important issue, although it is often overlooked. To put it simply, people either want sex or they don't. And their personal beliefs are their own, which is why everyone should respect the choices that an individual makes, no matter if that person justifies it with religious reasons or not. Virginity means body autonomy and personal comfort and it is often part of someone's identity. Asexuality is a thing that exists and it exists in different shades and forms that should be respected as much as celibacy should be. In the end, Supernatural continues failing to respect identities and personal reasons, and even though Dean's speech initiated a rather interesting point about one-night stands, it never went anywhere. It was all about him getting laid.

The main point was that the episode underlined a disparity between virgins being something to laugh at and people engaging in sex, but presented as objects for a male gaze, mainly Dean's. With typical frat boy humor Supernatural continues to be guilty of it. Which brings us to another issue that deals with a closer look at the various stereotypes we encountered.

Stereotypes

Indulgence and frivolous actions are equated with sin. The show makes fun of that particular connection within the chastity group, disregarding the fact that in real life we hold our own set of beliefs that should never be made fun of, even if you perceive them as absurd in the first place. Signing a contract and being a "born-again virgin "might not make a difference for one person, might even be considered odd from your point of view, but that doesn't mean it is something to laugh at when someone has very good and personal reasons for choosing his own course of actions in order to simply feel better and be himself. I also need to clarify that I don't personally distinguish between sin and purity, because being a virgin and sex positivity should always go hand in hand in my opinion. What Suzy or other people do with their own bodies is their business and certainly not Dean's or Sam's.

Moreover, we see the recurring stereotype of virgins being "good" and "innocent" girls, which was also reflected in the choice of clothing for the group members. Virgins put on a sweater and suddenly transform into chaste people?

Then we also had the issue of food consumption, which was a minor scene that still stood out for nothing more than what I would call fat shaming. On top of being sweater-wearing virgins, we should also hide muffins in our bag, because we are easily succumbing to sin of a different kind just because we have a certain body type. The subtle implication of virgins not looking like Suzy and not dressing like her just serves to highlight that particular disparity. Of course, the monster of the week also transforms to a femme fatale later on, coupled with more wanna-be-monster 101 lines.

Unfortunately, virgins and especially virgins belonging to a church group were not the only ones getting ridiculed by the narrative.

Sex positivity...or not

I read various opinions implying that Dean's appreciation for Suzy's career conveyed the message that her work was nothing to be ashamed of. As said before, Dean's blessing is good enough in this case.

Unfortunately, People forget that Dean's opinions mean nothing and should mean nothing in this context. Suzy is a woman who actively tried to start a new life. She possessed enough agency and managed to do what felt right for her at that particular time, only to come to the conclusion that she wasn't "strong enough" in the end. Aside from the fact that strength is not something defined by a comparison between people who have sex and people who don't, Dean's leering and unsubtle facial expressions were simply disgusting. He did not respect her choice or her way of life and he did not respect her when she started crying. There wasn't a single moment in his entire interaction with her that made me think that he respected her as a person. She was an object. Nothing more. As a fan of Dean I can't properly express how utterly disappointed I am with the season 1 Blurred Lines reject that he embodied in this episode. Hashtags wouldn't have surprised me, to be honest. And I also agree with the fact that this Dean was a different season 1 version and one that was closer to Kripke's original characterization of him that painted him as rather unsympathetic skirt-chasing Han Solo. He never made it on screen thanks to Jensen's talent, but in this episode I am applauding him for portraying a rather disgusting one-dimensional parody of season 1 Dean.

Invading someone's space, lighting candles, looking through her personal items, coercion, annoyance when she cried, the body posture of a predator questioning her after he found her DVD's...

I could go on and on and the list wouldn't be in favor of sex positivity.

In fact, it is demeaning to equate sex work with someone's sex life in private, because it reduces the sex worker to nothing more than an item with a life that literally consists of nothing more than sex. Suzy's interests and worries didn't seem to matter in the end. And Dean's interrogation just underlined that she was supposed to succumb to his wishes, because from Dean's point that is what she is. And nothing more. Why does Suzy need another man to get over her shame? Her understanding of sex is not his business. And he shouldn't make it his business just to get laid.

In the end, her sudden transformation from a person struggling with her past to a willing participant engaging in cheesy dialogue with Dean came out of nowhere and established the very unnatural switch. A switch that was supposed to be "funny", but represented nothing more than sexism to me. Lines such as "you're gonna hit that?" "crossed someone off his bucket list" support that argument. And it also didn't help that the camera work focused on certain body parts, giving us shots that were unsubtle and ultimately annoying. Dean might be a voyeur, but not everybody is , thank you very much.

Racism

You might be asking yourself where I'm going with this, and it might seem like a minor issue to some people. To me it is not.

Supernatural's reference to Casa Erotica and Busty Asian Beauties is a recurring theme for Dean Winchester. And I am so utterly tired of it.

Exoticism and its subsequent fetish are offensive to cultures by reducing them to one particular aspect that is supposedly "representative" of that particular culture. It isn't nice to hear that your background serves as entertainment and fetish. It doesn't help that Suzy's scene with Dean showed nothing more than two white people speaking Spanish in a sexualized context that was part of the overall joke of this scene. And don't even mention the music....

The porn industry has a big problem with cultural appropriation and we don't need a reinforcement of it, especially if it's done at the expense of real people who don't want to be sexualized and be represented by objects like maracas that apparently stand for an entire culture. Never mind the glaring ignorance of how diverse a culture actually is. Dean's fetish continues to be an annoyance and reduces him to more frat boy humor.

The Brothers

Aside from the obvious social issues I listed before, I also want to comment on the overall narrative, which can only be summed up with one adjective. Repetitive.

One instance is the obvious continuation of "What is wrong with Sam" part 3001. How many times will Sam display physical symptoms that are the overall arc of basically every season? I am not saying that his issues with self-worth are not something we should not continue revisiting, but there is a lack of consistency in the way he feels about himself. He either feels tainted or pure and then tainted again.

The show should finally resolve this drama once and for all and it should stop rehashing the same conflict over and over again. There are other ways to tell Sam's story and what he feels without making him faint every two episodes. It's getting boring and to me it is an injustice to both Jared and Jensen's talents when they are reduced to caricatures that only serve to establish certain plot points over and over again.

On top of that problem, we had Dean ditching Sam and ignoring his phone call. A Dean Winchester who only has sex on his mind and doesn't make the actual hunt his priority is a Dean I barely even recognize.

I also noticed a line that was somehow odd, because Sam's and Jody's conversation highlighted Jody's past and her opinion of Sam and Dean's bond. Unfortunately, he barely reacted to her comment, which seems to either imply that he is suspicious of his brother or doesn't really care either way.

The overall theme of the episode might suggest that Dean's problems and sexual encounters are representative of him going darkside, but I don't think this filler episode revealed too much about his overall story in the future. There isn't enough sufficient evidence for that interpretation. And just because he is disrespectful with the people he wants to sleep with, it doesn't mean that he is suddenly going Darth Vader. However, this episode overdid it with his casual sexism to the point where it was unbelievable to even compare this Dean to any Dean before "Rock and a Hard Place".

Positive



This list is going to be short, but the highlights have one name. Jody. She was the only character with actual depth and the only one allowed to have conversations with other characters that just added to the layers and layers of her characterization. I particularly liked the part when she talked to the big bad, instead of Sam and Dean being involved in that conversation. More Jody, please.

What did you think of 9.08?

151 comments:

  1. Well I really enjoyed the episode. The time flew by while I was watching it and I really did not see any of the issues you saw. Sometimes people can over analyse things!

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  2. Yeah, some of the things/ways the writers write things can be opinionated.


    I didn't care for this episode, but the gripes was not why, just the overall writing.


    Jody and Sam working together was the best.

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  3. I loved the episode. Its so sad that peoples just fixated on political things and can not enjoy light, humorous tv. As a woman and minority I DID NOT notice any of those horrible things listed in review. And, for the god's sake, when last time we've even see Dean in some sexual interaction? 2 seasons ago? And every time people hate it.
    So sorry you feel this way. I enjoyed episode and wish we have more lady-killer type Dean in the future.

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  4. I agree. Both of them working together was my personal highlight.

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  5. when last time we've even seen Dean in some sexual interaction?

    The one I remember was Dean and Lydia in "The Slice Girls" which I really enjoyed. Those scenes were truly hot and I had absolutely no problem believing the chemistry between those two. That's why this is so sad, because Dean in the episode was so unlike Dean. And they knew they had to lay it thick to sell the sex as believable, so they spent most of the episode on talking and Dean ogling the girl and didn't have time to show the actual sex.

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  6. I absolutely agree with the things pointed out here. Sometimes people overlook things which are extremely problematic in a show because it is their beloved show and it can never go wrong. Exactly what happened in this case. So many people have responded to me while discussing this episode "But Dean had fun, he had a great time so what's wrong?" Everything is wrong with that kind of reasoning. Dean was plain offensive here and the way the women were written in this episode was disgusting / offensive and extremely problematic to me.

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  7. On another site you said you barely watched half the episode. So how can you "gripe" 'bout something you didn't watch?

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  8. It's rather sad to see your favorite character reduced to this.

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  9. Thank you so much for writing this, I know a lot of people really liked the episode and I respect that, I'm just glad I'm not the only one who felt bad watching it.

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  10. Couldn't agree more. That was not the Dean I have known for 9 years. It just wasn't him.

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  11. The problem to me was that he always seemed more respectful than that and willing to back off.

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  12. Oh I know. To me he has been a care giver even for his one night stands. Sure he's objectified women privately (Busty Asian Beauties, Gumby Girl) but he has always respected women face to face. He didn't make fun of or treat Nancy who was a virgin badly in S3 Jus in Bello, he respected Jo in S5 (last night on earth -Abandon all hope), he backed off when Kali refused him. Also as early as Season 1 we saw a sensitive side of him with Cassie. In fact even that one night stand with Lydia in S7 ? even there he was respectful. His attitude in this episode was worse than Sam's exaggeration of him in Tall Tales (With Starla and purple nurples) How can reality be more offensive than EXAGGERATION..? I fail to understand that. Dean is a Charmer not a predatory dudebro

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  13. Thank you. This episode was so uncomfortable and creepy. The way they treat women in this show is appalling due to the fact that the majority of their viewers are women.

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  14. I never said that. I watch all of these episodes from start to finish. Then I rewatch the parts I want to comment on so there are no mistakes. I do that for my "The Originals" and "Doctor Who" reviews too.

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  15. Actually that's not completely true. The most vocal ones on the internet definitely are, but overall it's pretty 50/50 as far as the male and female viewer base is concerned.

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  16. I agree with many points but I have to disagree with your view that sex is mentioned/showed constantly in the show. After 9 seasons we can probably count on just two hands all the times the boys have had sex, and considering that this is a show featuring two single male leads who are considered drifters, that number is shockingly low. The boys from the Big Bang theory have sex more than Sam and Dean do.

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  17. This was the most OOC episode for Dean ever, hands down. Even the one where he leered at Portia was more in character, sad to say.

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  18. (Sorry if this was already posted). I do agree with some of your points, however I have to disagree with your view that sex is heavily featured in the show. After 9 seasons we can probably count on two hands the amount of times the boys have had sex, and for a show featuring two 'attractive' single male characters who are considered drifters, that is surprisingly low. I think the boys from the Big Bang Theory probably have more sex than Sam and Dean do.

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  19. This episode was one of the grossest, insulting, misogynistic episodes that SPN has ever aired. The show isn't even about hunting monsters this season, it's all about sex and insulting people who make choices that are different than the dictates of mainstream society. These writers seem to have a problem with virginity. Look at 9.03. The only reason for that piece of garbage was to deflower Cas because the writers couldn't bear to think of ANYONE on that show being a virgin. God forbid. Dean used to be a playboy, but not the creepy perv they turned him into this episode. In season 3, Dean treated Nancy with respect. You'd think that after 6 seasons, he would have grown up even more, but this episode regressed him to the mindset of a 15-year-old. I am so disappointed in Carver as a showrunner. Gamble didn't do this much damage to the characters. The writing for this show has become so poor and we get a different version of the characters every week because the writers don't pay any attention to the episodes that come before their own. Maybe some people loved this episode just because they want to see Dean have sex, but I have come to expect more from this character. Last season, he seemed more like a man (I mean, he IS 35 now), more like a mature adult, and that was very attractive. There was NOTHING attractive about him trying to get a woman to go against something that was important to her so he could get laid and cross something off his bucket list. If this is what this show's becoming, it needs to be cancelled.

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  20. Totally agree, WAY over analyse....

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  21. I agree with much of what you said, especially about racism, shaming of virgins, mocking of religion. Just because the show has done it before doesn't mean it's OK. I agree that this isn't what Dean is. He would only be this way when he's freefalling into a bad place, and I'm not sure if the writing had that idea or if I am just clinging to it like a liferaft. And I agree that lines like, "You're gonna hit that?" are just cringeworthy. I appreciate you pointing out the cultural appropriation and racism in a great deal of porn, and I wish Supernatural didn't enable this.

    I feel like the Dean and Sam story this season has the potential to be new, if they explore the aftermath properly. Dean's lied to Sam before (about John telling him he had to kill Sam, about Sam's wall and his time without a soul), but the narrative of this season feels different, less about "protect Sammy" and more about all the choices Dean's made and how he's struggling with them. I actually thought the last scene was a strong one, with good performances from both guys. But this will only hold true if the story isn't dropped a few episodes from now, which is what usually happens with these stories.

    I don't think the woman who was comforting Suzy was telling her they were both weak or wrong. She was just trying to ease her mind.

    This part confused me.

    "We’re still watching Supernatural, right? Because based on this season’s most recent episodes, I could swear I was watching a mix of “2 and ½ Men” and “Dark Shadows. What’s with the focus on sex and dating?”



    I don't understand the mention of Dark Shadows. They had love stories on the show, but they were just one part of the show, and they were generally either gothic or puppy love. I guess Dean and Robin fall into that category, but that's about it.


    The last four episodes have had sex jokes or some romance (although it was only barely a part of "Heaven Can't Wait", and Cas pointedly did not seem all that interested in romance), and then there's "I'm No Angel" (otherwise known as "We're No Writers"), but I'm not sure it's that out of the ordinary for the show. Last season, for instance, had a ton of Amelia/Sam in the first 10 episodes, and a little of Benny and his girlfriend. There are more sex jokes this season, and more about Dean's love life, but it's mostly just been shoved into a few episodes and scattered across the rest.


    I think one of the problems is so many MOTW episodes in a row, and MOTW episodes often have silly writing, for some reason. Not always, but often, especially since starting somewhere around season 4 or 5.

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  22. I thought Gamble did far more damage to Dean and to Cas as characters than one episode could do (she didn't damage Sam because she barely ever wrote for him - she took away all of his agency and just made him a constantly sick plot point who would sometimes have "ha ha where's his soul" stories or inexplicably say things like he doesn't feel any guilt for any of his past actions), but I agree with you about this episode being bad and about the show having an ugly view of virginity.


    I think Dean's been true to character for most of this season, and so has Sam (when he actually has something to do), so I'm hoping this was just an aberration from a crappy writer.

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  23. All I can say is... WOW... It's a TV show. Get your panties in twist why don't you. Jeez. It may not be the best episode ever but at least there wasn't a turkey or a Santa or Moody nonsense about the holidays. Also as a polytheist, the writers insult a lot of belief systems. SO WHAT!

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  24. Maybe some people loved this episode just because they want to see Dean have sex,


    Sadly, we didn't even get to see that, only the muddy, bumpy road to get to it.

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  25. Well I enjoyed it.I have nothing to say about the opinions offered above-I have made my own decision and I feel that it is an adult one.I do not drool and moan over Dean though he is attractive. I guess everyone just has their own opinions and that's all there is to it :)

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  26. well I probably will get slapped for this-I really try to keep out of these absurd back and forth remarks But.......This is a great show(Not reality),this one was just for fun and just get over it for heaven's sake!

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  27. I agree with you. I didn't say sex itself was heavily featured on the show, just the idea, and how important and life changing it is in a person's life, which as I mentioned in the article, isn't true for everyone.


    I think you hit the nail in the head though as to why they do it. "After 9 seasons we can probably count on two hands the amount of times the boys have had sex, and for a show featuring two 'attractive' single male characters who are considered drifters, that is surprisingly low." Perhaps making episodes like 9.08, and the constant comments, jokes and subplots about sex, is a way for them to compensate. Instead of creating multi-layered, believable female characters who then could get involved with our men, they keep creating stereotypes. And when those inevitably fail they worry about their heroes' representation as masculine straight men and add all the litter and noise to make sure no one doubts that. It comes across as awkward and offensive because there's never real substance to it.


    And it's sad because if Sheriff Jody Mills is any indication, they are capable of writing strong female characters, they just lose it when they attach the label of Love Interest to them.

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  28. Even as nice as it is to see Jensen shirtless, I'm afraid of what they would have been doing. Probably some sort of Lucy Ricardo and Desi Arnaz sketch.


    I'd like to ask them why they didn't have a sex scene. Was it because Jensen asked not to do it, or was this just supposed to be "funny," and therefore no sex scene, or was it supposed to show that the encounter was grimy?

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  29. Trust me, I do want to have fun. But that's like saying you should take it easy when a joke is made at your expense, and have fun like everyone else who is laughing (at you, your gender, your race, your culture, your sexual orientation...) It doesn't work that way.

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  30. I couldn't enjoy that episode, because it was dubcon, and the sex scenes were intercut with a man being hacked to pieces, but I agree they had more chemistry than the scenes in this episode.

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  31. So disagree, I loved it, the writers are giving us breathing space, away from the angels and demon thing with Crowley, That started getting a bit over the top. As far as Sam goes, to me the more tormented I see Sam the more I love him, he has never wanted to be a hunter and yet he is the one who makes the wrong decisions, the mistakes trusting the wrong people, and in steps Dean to help him, this show revolves around the brothers and no matter what there always has to be something happening, and it has to be Sam, Dean is too strong, pig headed and distrusting. I was glad the writers took note, when we let them know how much we were not happy with season 6/7 all that family/cousins crap. The show is not meant to be analized it is meant to just take you to their world, no religion, politics or any form of degredation is meant, it's a show, if you don't like the content don't watch it!!!!!!!!!!!

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  32. Maybe they were referring to the movie? I didn't see it because the show has a very special place in my heart, but I know they tried to make it a comedy.

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  33. I agree! IMHO, Dean the lover has usually been portrayed as gentle and romantic. Jensen might be a romantic but it's highly OOC for "bad-boy" Dean.
    Sayin' the notion of Dean being a romantic is more personal fantasy - the touching - the feeling - the sweet spot ...! Way ta go, Dean! Glad Dean was written as the more "animal" Dean is s'posed to be!
    Also not gettin' some of the gripes either. The Winchesters investigate by snoopin'. Suddenly it's a gripe?
    If Dean and "Suzy" didn't have sex - they wouldn't have found the hostages.

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  34. I'm wonderin' if you are really a guy? You're views on sex are not male-typical.

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  35. Although this episode didn't bother me the way it did you, I understand exactly why you were unhappy. Frankly when Dean said he recognized Suzy I actually thought she was the Suzy Whatshername that Dean told Sam to mention in confession and that Sam said was Dean's mistake. That would have been repetitive by reenacting last week's girl Dean left behind, but I'm not sure this was a good idea either.



    I know it was OOC for Dean to not answer Sam's phone call, but at least it makes Sam not answering Dean's phone call in Sex and Violence less egregious. Apparently it's something the writers have decided Sam and Dean do and they both do it, so I have less issue.


    Basically nothing has trumped Man's Best Friends With Benefits and All Dogs Go To Heaven for offensiveness in my view. We didn't have implied bestiality or a multiple murderer voyeuristic man being excused and looking sympathetic because he could turn into a cute dog.

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  36. Well, from what I heard, the movie sucked, so maybe that is what they meant. I never wanted to watch it.

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  37. Yes, I'm a guy. Guys have a lot of different views.

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  38. I bloody love Sherif Mills, but I think that the writers have been burned too many times, a lot of times when they do make interesting female characters, a vocal group fans get all pissy with it (like with Ruby, Bela, and Jo too I guess).

    Although I do think that sex does have a place on the show, I completely agree about the representation of abstinence, or virgins in general. I vaguely remember during the episode when Sam switched bodies with that teenage boy (AWFUL episode), Sam was in a bedroom full of Star Wars toys or something and Sam scoffs and says "eugh, virgin".

    I do admit that I do still disagree with the comment that "You say it in every episode. You make our favorite characters drool over it, talk about it, fantasise it, act like horny teens over it" because I honestly don't think they don't, at least not for a show with a mostly male cast. I do agree that they change their personalities for it though to some extent, well in this weeks episode anyway (I find it hard to believe Dean would bang a girl who had just been crying over being scared for her missing friends, that I thought was awful).

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  39. to me the more tormented I see Sam the more I love him,

    You have every right to enjoy what is enjoyable to you. But for those of us who don't like this trope, it's becoming really too much. You say you weren't happy with seasons 6/7, yet they too were wall to wall this trope. From Sam being soulless, to having a wall in his head, to the wall breaking and him being assaulted by hallucinations to a point that he ended up in a hospital dying...it's the same scenario over and over. Like I said, for those who like it, it sure is a treat. But this show has a very broad viewership and not all of it consists of Limp!Sam fans.

    Dean is too strong, pig headed and distrusting.

    I respectfully disagree. Dean, when they let him spread his limbs and show his range, is a very multi-layered, fascinating character. It's just unfortunate that the recent seasons have reduced him to one role alone: Sam's life support. That might be why some people might think he isn't good enough to carry a mytharc. But the truth is, the show never gave him a chance to prove it.

    it's a show, if you don't like the content don't watch it!



    An honest question: Would you say this to a person of color complaining about a racist piece aired on a TV show? Would you simply tell them "If you don't like it don't watch it?" These are cultural products of our time, meant to entertain the fans. I know what to expect from a show like "2&1/2 Men" so I don't watch it and don't complain about it. I expect monsters and hunting from Supernatural, so when I get misogynistic sitcom material instead I feel cheated.

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  40. "Man's Best Friends With Benefits"


    I remember that bull in the social issues China shop! I wasn't writing these reviews back then but that episode, and "Taxi Driver", were the two that made me choose this particular type of critique.

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  41. I'm glad you're doing this. Having a safe place to critique parts of the show is really nice.

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  42. "I don't understand the mention of Dark Shadows. They had love stories on the show, but they were just one part of the show, and they were generally either gothic or puppy love. I guess Dean and Robin fall into that category, but that's about it."
    Dark Shadows was basically a supernatural soap opera that barely dealt with the supernatural and mostly focused on the soap. It was puppy love for sure (and yes Dean and Robin fall into that category) that's why I added 2&1/2 Men to reflect the frat boy comedy the season is giving us.

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  43. I watched the movie and yes, it is a bad comedy and nothing like the original TV series, of which I only watched a few episodes.

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  44. Well, I loved this episode and I am certainly not shy in criticizing an ep when I don't like it.

    Others must have enjoyed it too, as it was the second highest rated episode since the season opener.


    It was great because their were no angels, giving us a breath of fresh air from Castiel and his douchey brethern. It felt so old school.

    I loved 'horny' Dean and I felt not in the least insulted by the sex scene. I would have been far more insulted if he had made out with creepy Castiel.

    I love the brother scenes. The more the better. I love their co-dependency, which Jody must also love as she commentated positively on Sam and Dean's special brotherly relationshièp.

    A very good episode. I wish there were more like that.
    x
    You quoted Ms Prudom, so I'll quote from a critic too about the show in general, for I don't think your gripes are particularily with this episode, but with Dean making out with a female, and putting Sam above and before anyone else!
    x
    Carina MacKenzie:-
    "Sam and Dean's codependency is beyond unhealthy -- it's downright deadly. And we love
    it. They've literally been through hell and back for each other. Dean sold his soul, and now Sam's soul has gone missing, but through it all they're soul-mates."

    If anyone is interested in reading this article which is really great; I've put the link below. It's a comparison between Supernatural and The Vampire Diaries. I won't tell you who wins. :)


    http://www.zap2it.com/news/pictures/zap-debate-club-supernatural-vampire-diaries-pics,0,935162.photogallery?index=22

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  45. Thanks. Twitter is too noisy for people to give critique without getting drowned by a million voices squeeing about "feels" how Sam, Dean or Castiel look hot in an episode. Message boards feel like echo chambers. This was the only place I could think of to provide those who weren't all too happy with parts of the show to post their opinion without being labeled as haters.

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  46. I mentioned this already on the thread on IMDb. But I will in here again.

    Gripe #3: Those scenes reminded me a lot of the scene in Hammer of The Gods when Dean tries to hit on Kali and she makes it obvious she is not interested, ladies man or not, Dean immediately backs of and finds Sam.



    In this episode, even knowing the woman was crying before and showed no interested in sex until his (crappy) pick-up line finally made her realize how much she wanted sex. Because what woman wouldn't want to have sex with a hot guy? They just need to be pushed until they say yes. Forget how unprofessional the whole thing was.


    Like you said, they turned Dean into a horny teenager that is willing to compromise a case and not answer his phone, knowing it could be an emergency, just to get his d*ck wet for a little bit. Even with Cassie, the writers at least waited until the end of the episode for the sex (and in Sam's case with Madison when they thought the case was solved).

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  47. It may have been one of the highest rated episodes of the season, but it also had one of its biggest in-episode-drops. It's first half hour was 1.1, but that dropped drastically to a 0.9 in the second half hour! Thanks for that link, off to go read it now lol.

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  48. disqus_hsJzghLynX30 November 2013 at 20:29

    Sounds to me like you need both need to move on. If you don't like it, quit watching It's that simple!

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  49. "I am applauding him for portraying a rather disgusting one-dimensional parody of season 1 Dean."

    I don't know I feel like SN writers think misogyny is no big deal and I wonder if the show has just been on too long now the repetitions are more and more. Tired of the over sexing obsessed with sex too.

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  50. It was great because their were no angels, giving us a breath of fresh air from Castiel and his douchey brethern. It felt so old school.

    I felt that way about last week's episode and it didn't make me feel uncomfortable or insulted. I understand you don't like Castiel or the angels. I'm surprised that seems to mean you enjoy any episodes they aren't in regardless of the content.

    I would have been far more insulted if he had made out with creepy Castiel.

    Why would he make out with Castiel? Where in the plot was that implied? Is this why some people get so excited when Dean has sex with anyone, regardless of the context and chemistry? Because even a door frame isn't Castiel?

    I love the brother scenes. The more the better. I love their co-dependency, which Jody must also love as she commentated positively on Sam and Dean's special brotherly relationshièp.

    You sound defensive about this. I don't understand why. None of the gripes were about the codependency. Even though I have major problems with it that's a gripe for another episode, one where it's featured.

    I don't think your gripes are particularily with this episode, but with Dean making out with a female, and putting Sam above and before anyone else!



    No. I explained clearly and in detail what my gripes were about. Also the two parts of that sentence don't even fit together. I don't like Dean making out with females because I don't want him to put Sam ahead of everyone? You might want to revise that because it makes no sense.


    And again I don't know what an article about codependency has to do with this article, which focuses on Dean's representation as a womanizer and the show's misogyny undertones. I'm suspecting you have gripes of your own but instead of listing them in a coherent manner you are posting them as counter arguments to critique that has nothing to do with them. I encourage you to organize your thoughts, type them out, edit them, and post them again.

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  51. What Tessa said :)

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  52. Thank you so much for your precious advice as regards my bad grammar. I will try to structure any future comments in a more acceptable manner.

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  53. Those scenes reminded me a lot of the scene in Hammer of The Gods when Dean tries to hit on Kali and she makes it obvious she is not interested, ladies man or not, Dean immediately backs of and finds Sam.

    Yes, I loved that Dean did that in that episode. It was very subtle too, but Dean's understanding of how much she wasn't interested spoke of his expertise in the art of courting the ladies.

    I don't know what happened that we're now seeing Stifler Dean instead of the smooth operator of the earlier seasons. Why the regression? Everyone says it's fun, but when it's at the cost of misrepresenting one of my favorite characters I don't enjoy it.

    Because what woman wouldn't want to have sex with a hot guy? They just need to be pushed until they say yes. Forget how unprofessional the whole thing was.



    Pretty much.

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  54. Was it not adjusted up in the final ratings?

    Nevertheless, regardless of how that result was reached, it still scored second. :)

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  55. This show has many different writers, some who are good, some who suck. Don't forget that only a few episodes before Hammer of the Gods, they actually had Dean happily say, "Some days you get to kill a whore," one of the nastiest, most misogynist lines ever on this show (I don't care that it was about the Whore of Babylon, it still shouldn't have been done).


    I'd like to believe Dean was so crass this time because they want to show him being in a bad place, but more likely, it's just yet another case of SPN having very different, very inconsistent writers.

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  56. I think some of the writers do see misogyny as wrong. Some of the writers seem to write women who are strong or who can stand up for themselves. It's just that other writers only see women as sex toys, or as evil.


    What's frustrating is that Jody was written as strong and capable and yet they just did an awful job with most of the other women in the episode.


    I think they still manage some new ideas, even in season 9. Unfortunately the recycled ideas tend to have such a stench that they suffocate the rest.

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  57. I hope you may give Dark Shadows another chance sometime. It actually has quite a bit of a supernatural element. I'd recommend the Quentin Collins haunting of Collinwood story if you want some frights and a minimum of romance (there was some, but not that much).

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  58. Boy you really need hip-boots to keep commenting! I have Never seen so many derogatory comments about (just my opinion)hat I consider to be an exceptional show.Some of you are just going on and on and Again all I can say is......WHY are you still watching this show? Stop wasting your valuable time Watching this show and then chopping it and the writers down and Watch something you LIKE.What a novel idea,eh?

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  59. Dean and Cassie had sex in the middle of the episode while the case was still pending. Sam had sex with Card when she very well could have been the succubus.

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  60. I wonder all those times Roger Ebert gave a movie thumbs down, how many people told him to stop watching movies because he didn't enjoy them. Apparently only people who love everything a movie or TV shows has to offer are allowed to watch and comment on them.


    Which reminds me, based on this logic, food critics should quit their jobs or starve.

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  61. Well I'm all done with this childishness-Roger Ebert,who was a wonderful critic and was Paid for what he did,and watched Everything because he was paid. Apples and oranges! Hope you had a nice holiday-bye bye

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  62. I'll definitely check it out. The movie was bad but I keep hearing it was by no means a reflection of the show.

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  63. Well, huh. I guess I.....well......I don't know. If I am offended or insulted, or unhappy, no matter the reason or circumstance, and managing the situation is beyond my control, I remove myself.

    Not all people are insulted or offended by the same words or actions that another person is.

    Most of your 'gripes' don't have substantial depth for me to agree with or see your point. I didn't feel virgins were being ridiculed. I rolled my eyes a time or two, scoffed a bit, harrumphed now and again, but at no time was I disgusted. I like to think women have a deeper self worth and sense of morality than a man's twinkling eyes and knee-weakening grin.

    And I thought this article was about the views and gripes of the person writing it. Was there a need to reference other writers/reviewers other than to show support for your issues with this episode? I don't know your history with the show, and yes, I realize this is a 'gripe' thread, but after reading it, I question how you could enjoy this show if you are insulted and offended and disgusted?

    A TV show is a story told to entertain and amuse, and yes be controversial. If a person is no longer interested in the content a show portrays, if they are constantly offended or insulted or see racism and rape and controversial subjects, for the sake of their mental stability, why would they not stop watching and seek a show more suitable to their views and beliefs?

    I was directed here, I like to read new reviews and blogs and hadn't heard of this one before. Apparently, I have a different definition of gripe then the writer of this article does so allow me to follow my words with actions and remove myself from reading future gripe articles.

    I do applaud your disclaimer. You are correct, you do not speak for everyone.

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  64. Cindy Shufelt Givens30 November 2013 at 23:36

    If Susie wanted to leave her old life behind why was she carrying around her old porn DVDs? She was certainly capable of saying no to Dean but she chose to have sex with him and so what. You quote one sex worker who was upset, well I could quote plenty of women in the industry who are in charge of the entire process. They are not victims. They are the big money earners. They direct, write, produce, and hire the males in their erotic films. The men make less money and the women are the boss. The goddess Vesta and her chastity group were not offense to me. I was happy for Jenny Klein and thought her first episode was great. Guess this article was a way for you both to get a little negative attention. That's rather clever on your part although it's a shame you have to resort to this heavy handed criticism of another woman.

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  65. Don't get me wrong, the show's not perfect, but it has quite a few charismatic, energetic actors, and some interesting ideas, even if the execution is often a rushed mess. Lara Parker is one of my favorite actresses ever - she's just pure charisma and a stunning presence. I could go on and on about the good parts of the show. People tend to just remember the worst.

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  66. Must say that in relation to Suzy and Dean, well if there was one man who could get me to break a vow of chastity, it would be Dean/Jensen. And he wouldn't even have to ask, just look at me and smile!

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  67. I really don't agree with most of the grips listed here. It wasn't anywhere near my favourite episode, but it wasn't on the list of least favourites. A lot of other comments have listed similar thoughts to mine, so I won't bother repeating them.



    This is Supernatural; after 9 seasons, the show is known for being rather campy at times and has never tried to be incredibly deep. Frankly, when it comes to sex (or lack thereof) on the show, you just shouldn't take it too seriously. I'm a virgin, and I was not the least bit offended. (I'm atheist so it's not for any religious means (only that I'm butt ugly), though, so maybe that makes a difference).

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  68. Dark Shadows, the movie with Johnny Depp? One of my favs! As campy as the TV show in its own sophisticated up-dated way. Love scene 'tween Barnabas & Angelic? Way too over the top too be taken serious. LMAO!
    A masterpiece that only Depp & Burton could have done, IMHO.

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  69. If Susie wanted to leave her old life behind why was she carrying around her old porn DVDs?

    Good question. You should ask the writer that. Both those details were in the script.

    You quote one sex worker who was upset, well I could quote plenty of women in the industry who are in charge of the entire process.

    Until you do so everything you say following that statement is your own opinion and not fact. The only fact here is the quote I actually produced.

    I was happy for Jenny Klein and thought her first episode was great.

    We're all happy for SPN writers. Doesn't spare them from criticism since they are professional people who write for a network TV show that is viewed by the public.

    Guess this article was a way for you both to get a little negative attention. That's rather clever on your part although it's a shame you have to resort to this heavy handed criticism of another woman.

    I write these articles weekly. I don't care if a man, woman, angel or demon wrote the episode. It is sexist of you to imply, since the writer was a woman, we should cut her slack. Why, because women are so delicate she might faint if she read this?

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  70. I like to think women have a deeper self worth and sense of morality than a man's twinkling eyes and knee-weakening grin.

    You mean the opposite of what was shown in the episode. That was part of the gripe and you inadvertently validated it.

    And I thought this article was about the views and gripes of the person writing it. Was there a need to reference other writers/reviewers other than to show support for your issues with this episode?

    It's called using references and quoting from other sources. It gives an article more substance and credibility because it shows the views stated in it aren't just those of the author alone but shared by others.

    I do applaud your disclaimer. You are correct, you do not speak for everyone.



    No one speaks for everyone. We are all engaged in a conversation. Imagine how boring that conversation would be if we all agreed on everything. I added that disclaimer for those who kept reminding me of it. In reality I find it quite redundant.

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  71. Can someone have sex without people bitching about it please..... wait what are we gripe about? HA HA! I am just getting tired of it again but people need to get it out so go ahead. I did not think much of this Ep because of all the good stuff happening in the next Ep when the SHIT HITS THE FAN! come this was the calm before the storm Ep for me so I do not over think about it Dean got Sex who gives a rats ass he is about to lose Sam in the next Ep that's all I care about.

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  72. Pretty disappointed at SpoilerTV for now having an episode complaint review blog for Supernatural. It's clear this person is a jaded fan and is now at the "I've watched the show this long, so I may as well stick with it even though all I do is complain and nit-pick" point of their fandom.

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  73. I was going to watch this episode because of Jody. She's not worth it for this crap.

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  74. Oh look SpoilerTV someone's decision on watching this episode was changed because you've allowed a jaded fan to have soapbox.

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  75. I've seen critical reviews in other television shows from people who enjoyed the series. I may not always agree with your comments, but it's nice there's at least one OPINION review like this. But I have to applaud your balls for doing these kinds of reviews in this fandom. You say boo against most anything and people will flay the skin right offa you, like Ramsay Snow.

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  76. Those were the preliminary half hours. It's clear the second half hour in finals was adjusted up.

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  77. Yes it was. It's sad that people still don't understand the the difference between preliminary and final numbers

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  78. The show is a lot more entertaining than the movie. But then I generally don't like most of Tim Burton's work, so I went in biased to begin with.

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  79. Glad someone else sees that Gamble was not a big Sam writer/Sam fan. It always boggled me when people would cheer her episodes, since Sam would get all of this great writing and what not. I never saw it. Certainly didn't see him get any different treatment when she was showrunner.

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  80. I agree with your article and it had nothing to do with the fact that Dean got to have sex. Good for Dean; he saves the world a lot & deserves nice things. But nothing about any of it had to be as skeevy as it was.

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  81. Just find her scenes on YouTube.

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  82. Dead on Marks. And sadly the most vocal female fans of the show are the ones that have been complaining about the show for the last 4 seasons. I'd also say 90-95% of the complaining about Supernatural nowadays is done by the female fans.

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  83. FYI a woman wrote this episode.

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  84. Maybe I'm reading complaints wrong but it seems some fans are upset that a girl didn't stick to her vow of chastity. Well many people don't as they don't work very well.

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  85. I'm pretty excited about the next episode. I hope it is a good one and from the promo, it looks like it is.

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  86. You're reading complaints wrong.

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  87. Interesting discussion. I will have to rewatch those scenes of the ep.
    The ep was written by a woman, too.

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  88. yes me too I just do not get the fight over dean having sex in this ep so why say anything about it? its not what I care about right now the next ep is.

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  89. yes so what's the problem with it. who cares anymore.

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  90. Just what this fandom needs--more FRINGE griping. And trying to influence tptb with pushy complaints--this fandom is full of that nonsense Extremely overwrought and wackily askew analysis.

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  91. Tylor Harvelle Winchester1 December 2013 at 03:32

    Whoever thinks that dean was doing something wrong by sleeping with that girl in the chastity group honestly needs to shut the hell up that's just dean he's been like that since day one and it was her choice to sleep with him. That was just a funny episode that the writers wanted to squeeze in and I think they did a good job.

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  92. Robert and Bill, site runners of TVBYTHENUMBERS (acquired by Zap2it), assuming "overnights" aren't inflated by preemptions, repeatedly tell posters that "half hours" are completely meaningless in terms adjustments to Final Ratings because they are based on a much smaller "overnight" data pool, The Finals for the episode are the results that count and 908 was adjusted UP from 1.0 to 1.1 in the Finals.

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  93. I liked the episode. I will admit it had its cheesy moments but some of the lines in this episode cracked me up "what the fudge lady?" cracked me up for some reason.

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  94. Back In Black Tricksteress 951 December 2013 at 05:53

    There's no point of writing the positives because its alittle sugar-coating in my opinion. You still do a good format of writing the forum, its just so disagreeable with me the way it have been presented. To even things up why is there no positve thread? and the big one is why is it just Supernatural?.
    But I did come on here expecting this but its abit too brutal for my liking lol.

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  95. Thanks for your voluble response. It really cleared it all up for me

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  96. Thanks for standing up for us virgins, I guess? Although I honestly didn't feel they were abstinence-shaming at all. They were telling the story from the brothers' point of view and if they enjoy sex, that's great. I don't see why you had to get so defensive when most of us aren't affected in the least.

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  97. Well, I am a virgin and I'm also not the only one who was offended by the content. Just because certain individuals aren't, doesn't mean that criticism isn't valid. No one speaks for entire groups, because we are all different people with different life experiences. The same goes for GSD representation etc.

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  98. What has Sam been reduced to then? because he is a multi layered , complex character who deserves to be written for rather than about. But these characters were given certain roles do you honestly think Sam would be given the focus and attention that Dean has in the terms of exploration and insight if Dean was given the mytharc?.


    The character where the actor that plays him as been given 23 days off so far , there needs to be a reality check sometimes .

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  99. i do not thin that the writers of the show are slut shaming or the opposite, or whatever you are saying because they are just trying to act out the personalities of the characters. sam and dean use sex to forget things and also to hide how they are feeling. if someone does not like the episode that's fine but Im just saying that if you don't understand the sex references and how they tie in with the episode then maybe you don't know the characters as well as you thought. (btw i loved the ep and this ^^^ is just my opinion)

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  100. I enjoyed the ep other than the porn star and the sex. If she was so disgusted with her past life, WHY did she have a copy of her movie? I guess my main gripe would be Dean going thru her stuff and finding the DVD, that is where in REAL LIFE he should have been kicked out the door, but this is NOT real life and I don't watch it like it is.

    I loved Jody and want more of her and less Charlie.

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  101. I agree with this, Dean has always been gentle in his love making, Sam is much rougher, I have wondered if Jared is just uncomfortable doing sex scenes. My favorite Dean sex scene was with Anna on the back seat of Baby.

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  102. I think the big difference is, a movie is ONE movie, the same people rag on SPN every ep. That reaches the point of if it bothers you this much EVERY WEEK stop watching. I did not like Bitten and will never watch it again, but it was ONE ep and I am still watching.

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  103. and still bitching about

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  104. I wasn't offended by the episode but then I stopped taking the show seriously a while back, going into this episode I knew it was going to be cringe worthy at times, have the usual frat boy humor the show has had for the past few seasons and that I would probably never watch it again. So I find it easy to ignore the I'd say immaturity in the episode and concentrate on the good which for me was Jody Mills and the scene right at the end. Its scenes like that with Sam confessing how he feels that make this show worth it and characters like Jody Mills who add to the heart of the show that make episodes that aren't so good like this one worth sitting through.


    I would like to see more Jody, I'd like to see her build more of a bond with Sam there is something there that the writers should build on.


    While I would have liked a bit more build up to Sam's story before it comes to a head on episode 10 I understand that the writers aren't actually telling us a story about Sam here and that the whole Zeke arc is actually about Dean which is why its mainly focused on Dean's side and is why the mid season episodes will also focus on the fall out from Dean's side and not Sam's. I'm just excited to see Jared's work as both Zeke and Sam and hopefully to Sam becoming part of the narrative in the second half of the season as Jared said he had spoken to the writers about.


    My advice to anyone who had issues with this episode would be to take a step back, take a deep breath and erase the whole thing from your mind, just pretend it didnt happen. Life it too short to let yourself be offended by a tv show or by people who bitch at you for having an opinion.


    I enjoy reading your gripe whether I agree with your opinions or not, so I hope the reaction here from certain fans doesnt put you off writing again. Not everything about this show is perfect and all sunshine and roses and saying so shouldnt get you the type of hate this fandom can often dish out. I remember the poor writer over at the Huffington post was driven away from ever writing about the show again after a back last from fans who didnt like her saying something disagreeable about Dean. Try and enjoy the show for what it is or at least should be and that is a harmless but of fun and ignore the rest.


    Hope to see you back next week.

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  105. Some people keep reminders of their past to remember what they've been/don't want to be again.

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  106. She mostly seemed to like "hurt Sam," which has a big following, I know, but often chips away at the soul of the character. I think Kripke was the main one who got Sam, especially in the first two or three seasons.

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  107. Jared had the scenes in bed with Amelia last season, although we never saw them having sex.

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  108. I get what you are saying about the abstinence group and the comment on virginity and sterotypes but I'm guessing the idea was the reason the people were let into the group was that Vesta wanted people who if given the opportunity would fall off the wagon so to speak as the ones we saw were all people who weren't there because they believed in chastity but wanted connections in a safer environment. Because really if you are secure in your chastity for whatever reason why would you join that particular group?


    An engaged couple? A girl who was never in any danger of getting any for any reason seeing how she was so repressed and annoying?


    Even the porn star wanted a real connection with someone. I think the idea was meant to be she jumped into bed with Dean was her supposedly her jumping into bed with someone who had a connection with her prior to finding out she was a porn star and when the they did find her didn't go to an overly creepy place and Dean was interested before and after he found out and sure he could roleplay with her but it wasn't as disgusting as you'd expect a guy hitting on a porn star could get, he hit on her but she seemed as much in control as he was. She got a one time roll in the hay with a guy who was in her terms more or less taking her as a 'normal' girl with not much baggage involved (okay that didn't come out right but you know what I mean).


    The annoying girl with the poetry should have come across as a lonely girl who was unsure of her sexuality but came across as so far in the back of the closest it is going to take a crowbar and a blow torch to get her out of it seeing how her jealousy of Bonny having someone else as a favourite was really about something else. Even Sam's shared 'reasons' in joining a chastity group could be seen as a connection thing he stated he was there because his relationships end badly. Even the woman taking cookies, she wanted a connection with something even if it was food.


    The idea could have been interesting, a chastity group that isn't really a chastity group but more a kin to sex enabling group made up of lonely people that wouldn't be missed too much that Vesta could feed on because really that Church group was there long enough for it to hit the radar of Jodie's church but the missing people only came to light when it was a pastor and an engaged couple taken from their home. How many lonely people had disappeared from that chastity group but hadn't hit any radar because people just assumed they hooked up and never came back to the group seeing how they didn't seem to mix outside the group. But because they went to hard with the stereotypes along with Dean hasn't had sex in a while this is a great opportunity to get him some it kind of spoiled it.

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  109. Yes, I was just about to say that someone named Jenny wrote the episode.

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  110. I'm not particularly happy with Jared's work as Zeke, i'm actually hoping for Tahmoh to return as i though he and Jensen had nice chemistry together. I'm also hoping they won't forget about Dean's part in the second half of the season, so that he and Jared can share the workload. Agreed about Jody,

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  111. Why does it always have to come down to HATE, when you disagree with someone. I enjoy reading this gripe review, even thought I disagree with most of it. I don't recall reading the word hate in any of the answers, but have to say I have not read them all.

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  112. Like I said..sex scenes, not just in bed, he always seems very rough to me.

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  113. That seems to have started happening since S8..we don't get to see any actual scene anymore. The last we saw was Dean/Lydia in S7. Since S8, Sam/Amelia, Cas/April, Dean/Suzy none of them were shown that way

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  114. It's not Jareds work as Zeke that is the problem and frankly how they would work Tahmoh back in with Ezekiel leaving Sam and just happening to refind his other vessel would be a hard one. I am not overly comfortable with the idea that the angel that possessed Sam by dubious means , who clearly is taking his toll on Sam has a bond with the brother that chose the possession to begin with.



    I am not worried about wether Dean will get forgotten but that Sam's side when he is back as part of the narrative is given some focus and that the Ezekiel sl doesnt turn into just how horrible it has all been for Dean. But as the writers do not seen interested in studying Sam as a character then I have no confidence that will happen.

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  115. We'll have to agree to disagree about Jared's work as Zeke, but i certainly do respect your view.

    I just wish to have Sam as Sam for the duration of the season, Jared as Zeke doesn't really tell me anything about Sam as a character. Would like to see him work together with Jody Mills more in the future and i thought Jared shined in his scenes with the actress. Same for Crowley.

    Hopefully i didn't come across as a Sam hater, i would just like to see the character used to his full potential, because Sam as somebody else plot-lines are just wearing thin for me.

    I guess i sympathize with Dean's choices more than you seem to, and i do have concerns that come mid season the writers will drop everything that have developed with Dean in the first half. But then i still care about Dean as a character and do understand his point of view.

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  116. Can i just say, what has happened to the comedy episodes with Sam, where Jared used to be so brilliant in? I miss those.

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  117. I am perfectly fine in agreeing to disagree . As for sympathizing I find that a prickly subject as Sam gets very little for his decisions and choices so while I can understand why Dean did what he did does not mean I can automatically sympathize . It has little to do with caring but I do care what is done to Sam and how he is hurt/effected by those actions .

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  118. Would you rather have Sam dead? If Dean had not let Zeke in, Sam would be gone.

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  119. I didn't mind this episode only because... Is a tipical supernatural episode. What did you expect? The quality of supernatural has declined since its peak mid Season 4 and completely sunk by Season 6. Season 7 was barely watchable. It's surviving on the power of the first three seasons alone, which is impressive.

    But yeah, if this episode came out in Season 4-5, then yeah, i can understand the griping. But now it's sort of the norm. This is the show you watch now. This is Supernatural now and it's been this way for a few years. Kind of late and pointless complaining about it now.

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  120. The problem was that a woman's stated commitment to abstinence wasn't respected by Dean. He knew that Suzy wanted to avoid sex, and instead of respecting her own decision about her own body, he saw it as a challenge. It was creepy.

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  121. You know, I realized from your excellent post that within the mess of this episode there might have been a true gem, with the possibility of being unearthed through better writing. As you said they could have started off with the idea of the chastity group but gone off to show that it was in fact a group of lonely people who were looking for true connections. Instead of ridiculing them, they could've shown Sam and Dean as voices of reason and guidance that led these people to find that connection. They could've kept the humor, but changed it to something more creative than the frat boy routine. Similarly, instead of talking about tacos and mariachi bands Dean could've said something clever that swooned the audience, along with Suzy, so her warming up to him was more believable.


    That way we could've had Ladies Man Dean as opposed to frat boy Dean. Dean has the looks to catch the ladies, the writer should give him dialogue that showes he has the skill too. This episode could've been great had the writer worked harder on it.


    Because they went to hard with the stereotypes along with Dean hasn't had sex in a while this is a great opportunity to get him some it kind of spoiled what could have been an interesting idea.


    This is precisely what happened. And I can't help but to think, had this been the earlier seasons - those well thought of, well written seasons that shaped Sam and Dean's personalities and built the foundation of the show - your version would've been what we'd seen on screen.

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  122. Thanks for the nice critique, I do enjoy writing these reviews and contrary to popular belief I also enjoy the show very much. Discussing the show with other fans is also one of my favorite pastimes.

    I enjoy reading your gripe whether I agree with your opinions or not, so I hope the reaction here from certain fans doesnt put you off writing again. Not everything about this show is perfect and all sunshine and roses and saying so shouldnt get you the type of hate this fandom can often dish out.



    I've been in the fandom for a long time and I'm familiar with the type of rage it could produce when someone says something it finds outrageous. I've also been a writer for a long time and have grown alligator skin when it comes to criticism of both my writing and my opinions. I actually enjoy constructive criticism, especially when it makes me see something I was blind to before. That has happened a few times since I started writing this column and it's worth all the other stuff that washes ashore with it. What I don't care about is when someone doesn't say anything about the content of the article, and posts something akin to, "Stop watching the show if you hate it so much," or "Stop writing these reviews, you don't speak for the fandom." These types of comments don't add anything to the discussion. They don't help me see the person't counter argument and do nothing to change anyone's mind about their own views. All they do is stop the conversation dead in its tracks.

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  123. "for I don't think your gripes are particularly with this episode, but with Dean making out with a female, and putting Sam above and before anyone else!"


    It's funny that you say this about an episode where Dean ignores Sam because he's too busy pursuing sex with a woman who has made it clear that she's not interested in sex. Do you have any criteria for a good episode at all, besides "no angels"?

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  124. I really do think that Jenny Klein has talent just not the confidence to stand her ground when it comes to her ideas. Torn and Frayed was good apart from the dropping of Sam and Dean actually concluding the Benny mess in a way that actually concluded it from the Sam side, Out with the old had interesting bits. This could have been a gem, giving Sam a connection with a co-star for once while Dean was given a chance to show how not only he but others relate to physical connections, sexual or otherwise. Hell they could have even linked the lonely people who want to connect to Sam and his talk with Jodie about how she thinks him and Dean had a special bond while he went meh. It could have been linked to Sam wanting a connection to others but how somehow fails to do it as easily as Dean does with people and how he seems to be missing something that others get (in this case Dean hiding Zeke) that way we wouldn't have had the anvil of Vesta telling him that something was up with him while him getting that something is up with how he is relating to others.


    The humour in this one could have been good, they could have kept in a bit of the ridicule in some ways Jodie hitting the annoying girl and telling to get a handle on herself to get the blood and then in the end seeing her cooking for the woman who was snagging food giving the idea they had both becoming comfortable in their own needs. I could have taken that ridiculing people if the idea is that they were simply ridiculing people who refuse to be comfortable in their own skin when they have known all along what to do to be happy and the only reason they haven't is themselves but once they do they are happy and something to strive towards. (so giving the idea that Sam will be even less happy about Zeke because he was being prevented from finally coming to terms with himself because of the stranger inside himself)


    And agree that they could have shown Dean as being a bit more of a ladies man than a frat boy just out of college who gets lucky. Show us that he can use that tender romantic side outside a bar to make Suzy more comfortable before she made a move on him.

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  125. But yeah, if this episode came out in Season 4-5, then yeah, i can understand the griping. But now it's sort of the norm. This is the show you watch now. This is Supernatural now and it's been this way for a few years. Kind of late and pointless complaining about it now.


    Maybe if we point out the problems with persistent they eventually pay attention. The main problem is there are a lot of fans who feel like you do, yet all the writers see on Twitter is the masses praising them. I hope some of them at least make a detour to these reviews and read them and the comments to see some of what the less gleeful fans think about the current state of the show. I don't want to think it's too late. There are yet more seasons to come and with a little work they could manage to return the show to its previous glory.

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  126. *I loved Jody and want more of her and less Charlie.*


    I'm one hundred million percent behind this comment! Jody is my favorite stable female character on the show since ... I guess Ellen? Charlie's had the focus, and I mean the FOCUS, of at least three episodes in two seasons ... what's Jody had? Not a whole lot. She's an awesome character with a great actress. Please, give me more of her and less of Felicia Day.

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  127. you know why that was rough right? because that was the girl who he later marred so he could get rough with her. they was getting together at that time and the other part is was to show alitte evil side of Sam that's way more Hot then Dean love fest in the car. man I rather have Hot rough anyday.

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  128. I wish Kripke would remember to get his characters on his other show. Revolution was horrible the first half of this season. Not sure I'm coming back after winter break.


    But to Sam ... if that's the reasoning, then it explains a lot. I've never been a fan of "whumping" characters. Esp. if it's just done because they like to see a character in pain, physically or mentally.

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  129. well I rather see him dead then see him in pain that his brother once AGAIN! lied to him and took his rights and lets not forget FREEE WILL AWAY! to die. don't Sam have a chose in saying if he wants to die or not when did we take that AWAY! from someone.

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  130. Hey, what ever floats your boat, I prefer the gentle, tender lover and that can also be HOT. I don't think I have seen ANY Sam sex that was not rough. If you have let me know when and I will go watch it again.

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  131. I agree, it was an awful thing to do, but I understand why he did it, after all he sold his soul for Sam, so what is a little thing like letting an Angel in to save him. Not sure Zeke is going to turn out like Dean hoped.

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  132. yes I know dean sold his soul and all was that before of after Sam went to heaven just want to know that because know one can tell me where Sam gone after he died remember no POV so was it worth it think about that? and now we would not even Know where he would have gone and would not get it anyway remember No POV for Sam so who cares right anymore Lets have Sam in pain it makes for good show right? you know it just hurts as a Sam girl to see him AGAIN go thought this every fucking year OK! sorry I am just alittle mad at it again.

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  133. Honestly, all it would take for the show to recover is make it a bit more realistic and make the relationships more personal again. Have Dean give a crap about someone other than Sam, or have him care about Sam in a way that isn't extremely unhealthy. Give Sam his brain back (like honestly, back in Season 2, Sam could tell Dean was lying when he was actually doing a decent job of it, but now when it's so OBVIOUS that he's lying, he can't tell? Really writers?) and give Castiel something. Anything. I don't care. Just give him a storyline that doesn't make him evil, or his efforts futile, and have him make some real connection with another character on the show that last longer than a couple of episodes.


    If they can do those things or something of the like (basically deepen relationships to a more human/realistic level) and I can see this show somehow recovering what it lost.




    *prays the writers sees this, but doubts it*

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  134. Couldn't agree more.

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  135. I enjoyed S6, but I agree that the writing has been on the decline since S7 and parts of S5.

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  136. I think it's time to stop, take the tampon out and get the fuck over it! I am a woman and found this episode to be a fun light hearted romp! Besides it's not like shows like vampire diaries or some other stupid drama show where every week someone is jumping into bed with someone else's mate just to cause more drama. These boys hunt hard and they should get a moment to play hard as well. They deserve it. So stop taking this so serious and let Dean get laid by one of his bucket list if he wants. Good for him! Besides what woman out there would say no to the chance of a one night stand with either of the hottie's on this show. I for one would jump on that so fast it would make your head spin! That is if they were not respectfully married and had families. Keep up the good work boys in providing us with a great reason to sit down one night a week and forget all about the troubles in our own lives. And be entertained by the adventures of the Winchester brothers and their poor powerless angel. Thank you!

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  137. They were in a different Supernatural and one where Sam mattered as a person. Now his weighed down with being a plot device and I am not sure we have a showrunner or writers who care enough to give us Sam back.

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  138. I worry about who's writing the episode more than anything. They don't have a good history exactly.

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  139. lmao I HATED Bitten. was just sitting there the whole time like "umm is this gonna end" And then the brothers finally come in and you're like "yay...wait it's over" gasp completed wasted 40 minutes of my life pbth.

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  140. I think they are losing the concept that this show is about the brothers love for each other. Sam never looked for Dean when he was on purgatory. Dean doesn't answer Sam's call which shows immaturity and a great risk to Sam. Neither one of the brothers want their own blood brother brought back when Cas offered. I am not seeing the whole family bond blood brothers thing that the show made us fall in love with. Very sad. Most importantly they are men now PLEASE let them behave as such so we don't lose respect for them. They can still be funny without being immature. Give us our brothers back! ; )

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  141. They could also give Dean a storyline that's about Dean and not about Sam or Castiel *and* tied to the mytharc.

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  142. This wasn't the first time one of the Winchesters ignored their cell phone for sex, Sam has done it before too.

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  143. I am tired of all the limpSam stuff. It's been 9 seasons of "something's wrong with Sam" and I think it's become a running joke instead of real storylines. Sam was well enough to dig up a grave last week and now he's so sick and apparently, his insides are being held together with "duct tape." The inconsistency has been ridiculous, but not uncommon for Supernatural. I think this storyline has gone on for too long and wish it would have ended about 3-4 episodes ago.
    I wish this show had balance. There are only 2 lead characters, these writers (and Carver) should be professional enough to write stories that are either about both characters or write 2 stories about each character, stories that don't have one getting all the plot and the other getting the emotional storyline.
    I'm afraid we're going to see Dean being a cheerleader again and just standing around while Sam and Castiel are doing something in the mytharc for the rest of the season.

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  144. I stopped reading after the tampon slur and the F word. Bad way to start a comment. You also may want to get that internal misogyny checked.

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  145. bangingpatchouli9 December 2013 at 18:23

    I think that the criticism of organized religion as represented by the chastity group was supposed to be balanced by Jody's sincere stance of "church going" as a source of comfort and solace. I've seen a lot of bloggers criticize how religion was represented in this ep without even mentioning Jody's position.


    I thought that Dean's behavior was awkward and weird too, but then it occurred to me that maybe they were trying to show him as a "fanboy" of Suzy's work. He was the male equivalent of Becky. It's just as weird that Suzy fell for it, but she was an adult woman and she made the choice. Dean didn't force her into anything, and she said she missed sex after the fact. I had a bigger problem with her reverse face in the dungeon. She came across as someone then who didn't know what she wanted. I think that trying to represent a complex character like Suzy who went from public sex with multiple partners in her past life to the opposite extreme was probably not something that should have been attempted as a side character in a semi-humorous situation.



    I think it's sad that Jody and Jody working with Sam has taken a backseat to this discussion about Dean's sex romp on every forum I've been on. Jody is a wonderful character -- strong, smart, resourceful, compassionate -- played by a great actress. I'd much rather see Jody episodes than Charlie who, to me, comes across as a geek girl caricature. But, of course, tptb don't think that Jody is as appealing to the CW audience. Instead of having Sam not look for Dean after S7, they should have had him team up with Jody to look for Dean because Sam did after a friend after all.

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  146. Jody anytime over Charlie, at least Jody helps the guys without cutting them down like Charlie does. And Sam acting all alone in S8 and not looking for Dean was a mess, he had people he could have gone to for help, Jody & Garth come to mind. Just crappy writing last year.

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  147. So you are taking time out of your day to gripe about people griping? I can understand why people want to talk about a show they love and have been watching for years. I don't always agree with people's gripes, but I'm not religious so some things aren't going to bother me. You have to try and see where other people are coming from sometimes.

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  148. You're thinking stereotypes. Men (like women) are a large and diverse group of people with many different views, opinions, feelings and preferences. Just because society represents a gender in a particular way doesn't mean that representation is true for everyone in that group, and it doesn't mean persons not exhibiting that representation don't belong to the group or have something wrong with them.

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