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Supernatural - Season 9 - Speculation on Dean

Jun 2, 2013

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And now?

Season 8 finished on a very angelic note, and it's times like these where we need to speculate about future storylines for the protagonists. And there are several ways to look at the outcome of the season finale, including the roles of our heroes.
What will the world look like with the gates of hell still open, Metatron having kicked the angels out of heaven and Abaddon still making a point of getting her regime change? And what about Dean who is literally the only man left standing, after both Sam and Castiel fell prey to the staged trials?

It's a bit of a guessing game at this point when it comes to a storyline for Dean. And we aren't talking about references that turned out to be a one-episode story, but a multiple-episode arc for Dean Winchester. Initially, Jeremy Carver explained that the finale would be a team effort, which turned out to be Dean both helping Sam and Cas, but not actively being involved in a supernatural story as an individual, since the story didn't set him up as someone being "chosen" or "affected" long-term by external circumstances. He was a valuable support system for those in need of it and it turned him into being the only player in the game who is unchanged.

8.23 -  Sacrifice
This is a starting point for our speculations regarding his future, but first of all, we need to understand that Dean's story seems to be a bit of a conundrum in terms of both his characterization and importance for events that are happening around him.

Don't misunderstand me. I appreciate the fact that Dean Winchester is one of the most intriguing characters in terms of taking care of someone else and helping people. He's consistent in his loyalty and love for others, and it is rare to see this kind of love reflected in fiction. Jensen Ackles does an admirable and Emmy-worthy job of portraying Dean, and his acting can only be praised with how real his character has become. Rarely do you get to see a character displaying such blatant, selfless devotion, and it's sad in particular, because there were several issues that popped up in season 8, which underlined how the caregiver aspect of his personality can pose a problem from a strictly narrative point of view. Maybe you ask yourself why? And it's very simple.
Dean wasn't chosen.
Obviously for specific reasons concerning his mental health, but the fact stands that no one was gunning for Dean Winchester as the sole target. This is, of course, arguable, given the fact that Naomi actively targeted him by manipulating someone close to him, approaching Dean directly. Sadly, those circumstances turned out to be part of Castiel's story of rebellion rather than Dean's. And it makes the problematic structure of his storylines even more apparent.
Season 8 has worked on Dean's character development from a very introspective angle, developing his emotional growth and his connection to other people, but the main issue among fans seems to be that no external conflict was added to his story that made him the center of it.
I will briefly elaborate on a distinctive point that differentiates between a character arc and a mythology arc for a protagonist. And yes, there is a difference. That difference needs to be noted down.

Dean's story

In the general sense, the chain of events in a show makes up a story and season 8 deals with shutting down the gates of hell, with goals and trials to present this coherent chain, with plots mirroring each other to foreshadow events etc. This means that the characters involved in it are directly contributing to pursuing this goal, being pursued by other characters that want to stop them or making major changes along the way that influence the journey. Sam was chosen for the trials (accidentally), and therefore continued on the path to undertake them and to contribute to the outcome of that story by taking responsibility. He became an active character rather than a passive one standing on the sidelines and watching the story unfold.
But what about Dean?
He wasn't chosen and became the one character "who can carry" Sam to his goal, as referenced in episode 8.17. Fans know that this is a direct callback to the story of Frodo and Samwise Gamgee from Lord of the Rings, as confimed by the writers. Sadly, this analogy caused a conflict and a major misunderstanding in the very definition of a character's importance.
Frankly speaking, if you asked random people on the street a simple question like "who is the protagonist of LOTR", many fans would come up with answers such as "Frodo" or "Aragorn". Why?
Because they faced their destiny, a destiny that was shaped into having these characters being the single focus of it. And Samwise Gamgee is not "chosen". He simply contributes to the success of Frodo's story in a major way, which means that Dean also influences Sam's choices, but isn't destined to overcome difficulties or supernatural conflicts by himself, because no destiny is waiting for him.
As much as I like Eric Kripke's Han Solo and Luke Skywalker analogy, we shouldn't think that both characters are of equal importance to the overall mythology in Star Wars. Just like Frodo and Sam aren't. In Star Wars, Luke Skywalker worked towards his destiny, especially in the first and third films. Han Solo technically didn't have a heroic journey or a background history shaped by mysteries we had to uncover. The climax of the third/sixth film was the confrontation between Luke and his father.
5.04 - The End
As for Lord of the Rings, one can say that a perfect analogy for Dean Winchester would be Aragorn, the reluctant leader, still a bit of a normal, humble person, but the one going to battle and guiding people. Reducing him to a person helping another person isn't exactly equal storytelling, despite one character having a more emotional focus and the other character being more heroic. Dean Winchester is more than a character reacting to the circumstances around him.

The past

Dean had a destiny and storylines that set him up as a character of importance, not a character contributing to the importance of someone else. He is known as the "righteous man" who began it, and the only one who could finish it. He is also an archangel's vessel or Michael's Sword;
4.22 - Lucifer Rising
disturbing and honorable titles that include Dean into the angel mythology from a very non-hellish point of view.
Back in season 4, Dean became an active protagonist simply by having these outside forces like Castiel and Zachariah pushing him towards it. This is a storyline that carried over to season 5, because it wasn't just about Dean helping someone else, but Dean struggling with his own problems that had nothing to do with the problems of his brother. Both characters were equals, so to speak.
Right now, my impression is that they are not, although it is arguable, given that he landed in Purgatory, and his conflict became central in the first half of the season. Sadly, no after-effects of Purgatory were linked to the overall mythology of closing the gates of hell, and no long-term mental health problems occured, even though he was fighting for survival 24/7. Dean experienced clarity and expressed what he wants to do; hunting side by side with his brother. And his desire initially conflicted with Sam's, before the MoL storyline was introduced. Sam found his destiny and the conflicts from the first half of the season barely carried over to the second half. The trials took center stage, pushing Dean's issues with abandonment to the background in the finale, as confirmed by Jensen Ackles.

What about his mental health?

There is one thing that I keep in mind when a character expresses what he wants for his future. I don't necessarily believe everything he says, and this comes from the very fact that Dean's internal conflict is one best summarized with the term trauma, which skewes his perception and ability to express his own wants and needs properly. We can argue that Dean doesn't really have a goal outside of hunting, because he believes it is the single thing in life that makes him happy and gives him a purpose.
This impression stems from the trauma he experienced, and we need to summarize his very being to understand that not everything verbal should be taken as fact for what he really wants.

Dean's core characteristics are shaped by his experience as a child. Early on, he was exposed to trauma at the age of 4, effectively cutting off any normal childhood he could have had.
John Winchester insisted on him becoming his brother's protector. And it goes even further than that. Dean became mother, father and brother all in one by assuming the role of a caregiver rather than an older brother who can voice his own needs. At the age of 4, this is no burden a child should bare, including being forced to practice shooting, putting his physical and emotional needs below the needs of other people, experiencing hunger and having no opportunity to simply indulge.
The enormous responsibility that was placed on his shoulders is quite frankly detrimental to his mental health, and it just hammers into his brain that he will never be as worthy as Sam. His existence only matters as long as Sam is happy. And previous episodes made a point of criticizing it, using Sam's own resentment toward John because of the way Dean turned out to be.
4.10 - Heaven and Hell
It was, in fact, a continuous, tragic theme - Dean losing his life, his personhood and then eventually his soul for his younger brother, which caused Sam immense grief.
Romanticizing that concept and saying it's beautiful that Dean puts Sam before others is quite problematic in that regard, as it firmly puts Dean's agency below the agency of his brother. This is not love. This isn't even equality. This is sacrifice.
It doesn't even matter that Dean exclaims how happy he is in that position, because it means that taking his words as fact over the bigger picture glorifies something that shouldn't be glorified. Of course, he would say he is happy in his caretaker role, because that's what his life was defined as, and he simply doesn't know better. But the hidden resentment is definitely still there and shouldn't be brushed aside. Otherwise, Dean wouldn't have lashed out at Sam the way he did in season 8. Remember episodes like "Dream a little Dream of me".
No. No, all there is is, "Watch out for Sammy. Look out for your little brother, boy!" You can still hear your Dad's voice in your head, can't you?
....all he ever do is train you, boss you around.
But Sam.... Sam he doted on. Sam, he loved.
Those aren't issues Dean will overcome if he doesn't get the necessary treatment. And Dean expressed it quite explicitly.
All that crap he dumped on me, about protecting Sam. That was his crap. He's the one who couldn't protect his family. He-
Who wasn't there for Sam? I always was! He wasn't fair! I didn't deserve what he put on me.
And I don't deserve to go to hell!
1.18 - Something Wicked
This is the very dark truth of Dean's trauma, and it culminates in one single point, mainly the ability to want something for yourself, to want to live. And it's very important that Dean expressed his wish.
Watch episodes like "Something Wicked" and you see the extent of his guilt that a young boy carries around, that even enjoying something just for himself can mean that his brother is in danger.
It's no wonder Dean developed mental health problems, and those are not just easily going away by declaring that he will always put Sam first. No, in fact, they trigger him on some level and send an overall bad message for sibling relationships in extreme circumstances: Putting someone's needs above your own is apparently okay. Taking care of someone at all times and "carrying" him, while not dealing with your own issues, is okay.
And it's not. It's far from okay.

Dean has a low self-esteem and he will blame himself for choices other people make, such as leaving Castiel behind in Purgatory. That's also why he sacrifices himself so easily for other people. He takes on the role of a parent who feels responsible for his child, which should not be glorified at all. Dean is Sam's brother, not his mother or father. And being siblings also means that both should have the opportunity to be individuals, to want something just for themselves without the other one judging them for it or dragging them along by assuming that this is something the other one wants. Dean's wishes are his own, just like Sam's are, and both are fundamentally different in how they see themselves, which is why it's difficult for them to be equals. A parent and child aren't equals.

Control issues, anger issues, abandonment issues, the list goes on and on with Dean, which is why it's easy to root for him to get better. On top of that, Dean is the underdog on the show from a very social perspective. Elitism doesn't favor him and just puts him into the category "worthless" simply because he has a GED and nothing more.
And his talents aren't as easily recognized, which means people automatically assume he is dumb just because he's not book-smart. The show likes to play with that, and after a while, it gets irritating to see Dean not knowing what a "familar" is. Hopefully, season 9 improves in that regard, because from what fans remember, the rural, blue collar roots of the early seasons have been arguably turned over in favor of white collar principles, such as the Men of Letters (researchers), something that shapes Sam's destiny, but leaves Dean strangely on the sidelines, practicing with swords while Sam researches. According to Robert Singer, “Sam is more the brain, and Dean is more the brawn.”
8.12 - As time goes by
8.12 showed Dean as a strategist with the ability to quickly come up with plans, which is why the elitist distinctions should be abandoned for future seasons.

Codependency

Before it's assumed that codependency is legitimate simply because Sam and Dean are fictional characters caught up in an extreme environment, and therefore shouldn't be equated with real life sibling relationships, let me explain the major issues with that argument.
TV Shows don't work in a vacuum, which means that they explicitly draw on real life material and social discourse in fictional settings regardless of the genre. A SciFi show deals with humanity just as much as a romantic comedy would do. If a show glorifies issues such as consent, because it's a bad guy/good girl trope, it sends a negative message to teenagers watching the show. And Supernatural established Dean and Sam as codependent, which is a very real life issue that people struggle with on a daily basis. Dean is very codependent on Sam, and it's a problem for Dean.

Codependency means making the relationship more important to you than you are to yourself, which means that a codependent person becomes some sort of martyr who "goes out of his way and sacrifices his own needs to accommodate other people". As this reliance increases, the codependent develops a sense of reward and satisfaction from “being needed.” In fact, these symptoms heavily reflect on Dean's psyche.

To counteract Dean's problems, it's important that he has a stable support system, which is a good reason, why it would be great for season 9 to have Sam and even Castiel supporting Dean, as he struggles with an external conflict that affects his health, mental or physical. It would change the dynamics between the characters, because it reveals that Dean is not invincible and that expecting him to always have the answers would just add more pressure; pressure he doesn't need. Dean's codependency is rooted in his childhood, and it matters that he confronts his own fears to make him realize that his life and health are of importance and that he is allowed to crumble and express his needs regardless of what others expect of him. Sam already possesses the ability to want something for himself (whether it's a normal life, or the MoL destiny), to strive for independence, because unlike Dean, he was being taken care of. Dean wasn't. As a conclusion, Sam can be the strong one rather than the person in need of help.
8.21 - The Great Escapist

In the end, equality is reached by letting both characters become individuals rather than two people in an unstable dynamic, and if you appreciate them as two separate people and as a unit, you want what's best for them. Dean becoming his own person and less of a codependent substitute parent doesn't mean he will love Sam less. Why would he? In fact, he will love him in the way he was always supposed to; a brother loving his younger brother and a brother valuing himself, which in turn makes Sam happy.

Why a mythological storyline helps

Simply put, an arc that focuses on Dean as the "chosen one" in need of help exposes his vulnerabilty and conflict with himself, pushing him towards a more active role.
Overcoming a conflict related to the supernatural would give Dean a boost in confidence, but even his doubts and fears would lead to exposure of his problems such as PTSD. With Sam, Castiel and even Charlie as support, he would surely get to know that his own life matters for the people that love him. A simple sacrifice won't cut it anymore, and with Sam's help Dean would also get to reach the "light at the end of the tunnel". In fact, Sam would get an emotional focus, having to deal with a brother who's in danger. By supporting Dean, Sam can overcome his own doubts regarding his flaws and constant disappointment in himself for not being able to help Dean.
In the beginning, I talked about the differences between storylines focusing on emotions and storylines focusing on the supernatural conflicts. It's a win win for both characters when Sam and Dean both experience a supernatural story and a character-related one. We get to see inside Dean's head when we watch his solo scenes, for example Dean decorating his own room. Both characters deserve these storylines in order for the fans to relate better to them, seeing them struggling with their inner demons as well as the outside forces of hell. Partnership, understanding and equality can be reached, if the show steps out of the codependency issue, which forces Dean to be a caretaker rather than a person expressing his own desires.
He desperately needs to.

Isolation

Supernatural is the story of Sam and Dean, and it shouldn't be the story of a tortured hero and his brother accompanying him on the road, but the story of two heroes overcoming what others throw at them individually and as a unit.
Another difference is that Supernatural is not an ensemble in nature, which means that side characters can fall into the trap of becoming mere plot devices. Castiel somewhat steps out of that with own storyline, and he helps Dean becoming his own person simply by being a friend. The same goes for Benny and Charlie who actively contribute to dismantling Dean's lack of self-worth and dependency on a single person.
Furthermore, I think Sam really needs to have some friends of his own and more side-characters to interact with that aren't necessarily interacting with Dean. Sam, on a more abstract level, is dependent on Dean's approval, which just underlines how isolated both brothers are from the world they are supposedly protecting. By walking out of the lives of other people, leaving them broken in the process, they aren't exactly being heroic. And to be honest, I felt pity for Benny and Amelia.
Additionally, season 9 needs to let more characters live, so they can help to break down the cycle of codependency.
In turn, Sam and Dean can learn to love other people, which directly reflects how healthy sibling relationships work. When I watch TV shows, I want to see progress and characters overcoming their issues, not submitting to them. Moreover, minor characters aren't mere plot devices leading from A to B, but characters with their own needs. Seeing Sam and Dean working together with other people exposes them to the world as is and makes the Winchester Family Business more meaningful by repopulating their world.

Season 9

8.05 - Blood Brother
To break it down to key points, Dean Winchester needs a mythology storyline that focuses on him as a protagonist rather than a character reacting to other people and their needs. With Metatron and Abaddon still a prominent threat, and with angels walking the Earth, the Winchesters, and especially Dean, will have to step up their game in order to protect the people they love. The basics were introduced, and there are so many mysteries left to uncover, like the MoL headquarters, the acquisition of power and how souls can be used, as shown by Henry Winchester. One major question would be how much Sam and Dean play into the mythology, which goes back to Cain and Abel.
And finally, I'd really love to see Jensen Ackles stretching out his acting skills and playing Dean as someone who is not just emoting, but confronting danger. There are several ways, in which we can see Dean having a different role, perhaps even one leading to him becoming the bad guy. Trauma and external conflict go hand in hand and it would be interesting to see Dean dealing with both; maybe as the one undergoing the real trials to stop Metatron.
Dean Winchester is more than a protector or John's shadow. It's time to uncover all the layers that make him more than Sam's big brother. After all, he's his own person, isn't he? To conclude, here is a favorite fanvideo of mine. Hopefully, you enjoy it as much as I did.

346 comments:

  1. Wow.Excellent character analysis.Very well written.I want Dean to be more active and have his own arc in season 9 too.

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  2. YOU ARE AWESOME! Great article! I can't wait for Season 9. It will be full of new storylines for all characters we love :)

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  3. Given the recent writing staff additions/subtractions, I am not exactly hopeful about next year.

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  4. Ben Edlund is definitely a loss and I'm not exactly hopeful regarding the new additions. But we can only wait and see.

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  5. They have brought back the two writers who wrote the awful mannequin 3 the reckoning episode from season 6. :(

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  6. Wow. This was an awesome read. Great job.

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  7. Finally!!:) This is the best article I've read in long time. Brilliant. I'm absolutely over the moon that at last someone has taken the initiative to make publicly declare what many has felt., said and have been shut down. From your page the writers of SPN's table .. followed by a season long arc for Dean in S9 and more. A great overdue analysis. Thank you:D

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  8. Edlund's episodes were generally well-paced and interesting to watch, but I felt like he had sort of been moving out of the show over the last few seasons anyway. If you mean in terms of Dean, I often felt like he was somewhat bored by Dean these last few seasons. The one episode I felt differently about (Everybody Hates Hitler) turned out to be comic relief.

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  9. They also wrote that Titanic episode. I just want to know if they can make an episode which doesn't plod along. I hope they can.

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  10. An awesome article Veronika, you did such a good job of confronting a lot of issues regarding the writing for Dean these last couple of seasons, and why they are a problem, both for the fans and in terms of the narrative. I've been wanting Dean to have his own real mytharc storyline for 2 years now, but watched anyway..this season, or more specifically the last half of the season, was so unbalanced - with absolutley nothing going on with Dean other than what he can do for others - that the scales tipped completely over the edge and I could barely watch anymore. I just don't understand why the writers continue to ignore Dean's issues, refuse to put any kind of story focus on him, or not realise how it would benefit Sam too - having Sam in particular as the caretaker for a while with Dean in need for a change, will actually help the audience to understand and sympathise with Sam more (and I have seen fans really not like Sam this season because of how he was written). Which is why I can't understand why they didn't just have Dean do the Trials and Sam looking out for him, it would have made so much more sense considering the first half of the season, or at least in my eyes anyway. Having said that, yes they really need to end the co-dependancy, and for the love of ****** show, stop treating the characters (Dean in particular) as simply an extension of the other. Dean is an awesome character in his own right, he doesn't exist on Supernatural simply to cheerlead, prop up, or react to others. They proved this in seasons 4 and 5 especially, does no one remember how popular those seasons were? That's because they were the most balanced, with equal focus on both brothers and equal interesting plots concerning both, and I can't understand why the writers don't strive to bring that back. But then, I've always suspected that when it comes to this show...whenever they have the opportunity to do something great, they throw it away - too scared to go there. Look what happened to Purgatory.

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  11. yeah I know right, I can't believe they are bringing them back, they really can't find any other writers? maybe give some new writer a chance? I mean Edlund leaving is a loss, bringing back sucky writers is an even bigger loss. And All remaining writers have written horrible episodes, Adam Glass : All dog goes to heaven, Daniel and Andrew, season 7 time for a wedding, Robbie Thompson: Bitten, Jenny Klein: Caged heat.

    Seriously guys, we don't even have any consistent good writers in the show any more, the best are the ones that fail less times, come on, very worried about season 9

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  12. I wish I had your optimism haha. Hopefully I am completely wrong about them and they turn out to e amazing.
    I'd quite like to be proven wrong like that lol.

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  13. Every writer writes a horrible episode, even Edlund.



    I look more at overall output. Overall I'd say Robbie Thompson has been terrific, Adam Glass is really improving, Andrew Dabb is good-ish, not great (the last one, Clip Show was rough as hell). Loflin, Klein, the dog duo - no thanks.

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  14. As I Sam-girl, I've never given this much thought to Deans POV and why he does what he does, which made this article all the more interesting for me. Thank you for giving me yet another new perspective of this awesome show.

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  15. It's not so much optimism as mixed feelings. Season 6 was a huge mess of a season, having to change goals around at random (Sam's soulless story was supposedly originally planned to go for the entire season, so that must have made episodes like the mannequin one more difficult to readjust). I liked some of their episodes and I disliked or had no real interest in some others. I'm mostly worried about boring and disjointed episodes. I hope they won't have those, and then maybe I can hope for good quality, but I won't expect or assume good quality until we know for sure. I'm a little more optimistic than I was when I thought the only person replacing Edlund in the writing staff was Jenny Klein, but that's it.

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  16. Well, since your rant against codependence makes up 80% of the article, I guess I'll respond to that first. It's pretty off-putting being told what we should be wanting "if [we] appreciate" the characters correctly. Some fans fell in love with the show because of their crazy, mixed up lives, and don't expect nor particularly want them to become well-adjusted average joes. Who watches TV for or gets invested in "normal"? Just look at the response to the Amelia storyline for the answer to that. I don't want Sam and Dean to become isolated (but really, when have they ever truly been alone? Even in S7 they had friends and connections when Bobby and Cas were gone) but I'd definitely lose interest in the show if they tossed away the core that makes up their relationship and characterizations that've kept me watching for 8 years. Or if we had to spend the last couple of years with this show watching Sam and Dean go through the therapy required TO fix the kind of ingrained issues they've had since childhood, if the show wanted to be realistic at all about fixing it.

    What I WOULD like to see is for Dean to take a more central mytharc role while Sam gets the bulk of emotional connections with guest stars, for a change. Especially if that brought about a chance for Sam reciprocating the intense level of worry and support for his brother that we generally see coming from Dean (and that's not unprecedented, no matter how much Carver likes to think Sam wouldn't even bother trying to find his missing brother. Remember how desperate Sam was in S3?) I think that's something the show needs at this point, after how the beginning of S8 went (as much as I want to forget it). I have a feeling this swap is what would make a lot of fans happy, and I'm not sure why the writers so avidly avoid going there again.

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  17. I'm very happy to see such an in-depth article on Dean's characterization and lack of central story focus. Clearly you put a great deal of time and effort into your writing. I agree with Dean needing support systems, Sam needing his own friends, Dean needing to be more than a vehicle for others.

    There are only two parts I disagree with.

    - I don't think the show was that much more blue collar early on in a substantially different way than it is now. Most of that was surface elements, like the music. From the start, Sam was the one who had done the right thing (even John saying so) by going to college. Dean was the one who was mocked, in early episodes like Shadow, as not reading books. The show has always shown Dean doing incredibly smart things but then laughing if he doesn't know something. They don't make fun of Dean as much now, but they still use him in place of viewers, because they don't think we know what a familiar is, they don't think we know who Prometheus was.


    - I don't think a myth arc is the best way to progress Dean's character. Myth arcs on Supernatural tend to destroy characters, because they almost always focus on tearing them down and having them make mistakes to serve the plot. This happens to Dean too, but not on the level of some of what they've done with Sam and Cas over the years (Godstiel, trusting Metatron, killing Lilith). I only want to see a myth arc for Dean if this will be written in a way which encourages positive character growth.

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  18. Great article! I agree with you, I have two older sisters and I know that they care about me all the time, but they have their own lifes too and I want them to be happy. I love Sam and Dean's relationship, but they need to have other friends. And Dean needs his own storyline, I loved him in Purgatory (even Jensen thinks that Dean was happy there), Jensen is such a good actor and writers shouldn't waste his talent.

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  19. I actually agree with you that myth arc can destabilize a character to some point. The more a character changes and plays different roles, the harder it can get to finding his roots. I think this happened to both Sam and Castiel

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  20. They seem to have done the trials to tear Sam down and show that he has no self-worth and he wanted to die. Or for some statement on how sacrifice is not worth it if you die in the process. Meanwhile, Dean was starting to see that you should want to live (although you could also interpret it as he just wants Sam to live).


    I feel like Dean has already been here before, so if he has any trials I hope they go in another direction.

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  21. I think this is especially true with Cas, because he's rarely onscreen.


    I don't mean to sound anti myth-arc, I'm just anti myth-arc on this show. I think the ideal myth arc would have been Dean as Michael.

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  22. Interesting article. Dean is my favorite character and sometimes it hurts seeing him so codependent, I hope season9 will be the season of Dean being his own person, and caring about his own needs too.

    Veronika, you wrote about Castiel and Dean, it'd be awesome if you'd write now about Sam? :)

    I love your articles!

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  23. "Myth arcs on Supernatural tend to destroy characters, because they almost always focus on tearing them down and having them make mistakes to serve the plot."

    But the opposite to that coin is being the character who's always Right and reminds everyone else how Wrong they are, which gets a little tiring in itself. That's why I, for one, would love to see Dean be the one to make a decision with good intentions that turns out to have bad (and not instantly fixed/forgotten) consequences. I don't think that happening renders characters unsalvageable; I think it instead gives them a solid place to learn and (hopefully) grow from, at least when well-written. Which can admittedly be rather a crapshoot on this show, but it doesn't mean it couldn't be done.

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  24. geez, I don't know, I mean sure Edlund wrote some not so good episode, but he didn't give us bestiality crap. his "bad" is still better than some other's "good". And Robbie or Adam might be okay, but have they reach the bar set by their predecessors? As time goes by, pac man fever are like the best episodes of the two, but they are still not as good as the end, or Jus in Bello, or a very supernatural Christmas. I just think these writers can write good episode on their best day, but they still haven't delivered anything awesome, and Edlund have delivered multiple times.

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  25. I think Dean already did this when he sold his soul for Sam.



    I think we could see some exploration of he and Sam stopping the trials - if we see that this was a good decision, but one which also causes a great deal of pain. If the show allows Kevin to be hurt and angry with them, if we hear talk about people like Sarah who died. I hope the show won't gloss over this (and I am glad they aren't going the sacrifice route again, but I hope they won't forget the cost).

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  26. yep. gonna cover his story. I'm not writing an spn column, so it might take a while. and recaps take precedence (kinda obsessed with hannibal) :)

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  27. Excellent article. I found Dean's personhood arc satisfying in season 8, he did grow, but there are issues with the position SPN insists on keeping him in. His lack of direct plot involvement for his own sake, that's hurting the character and the brother relationship. Some interesting points about codependency. While I see why their screwed up psyches and devotion to each other is a huge part of SPN's appeal--I don't think SPN can actually pull out that aspect completely, but it can handle it a whole lot better--it grows a lot less compelling when it feels so lopsided, season after season, and less compelling when characters become stop-gapped, playing the same scenario over and over.


    As you said, if it becomes about a tortured brother, and the brother who is along from the ride, who is there mainly as his brother's bodyguard, support system, champion, without enough plot of his own or enough to spotlight and explore his own issues, that weakens the whole affair. As you said, SPN is the story of "Sam and Dean" -- it's not the story of Dean propping up his chosen-one brother Sam.


    I don't see how Sam and Dean can believably bond, and get along, as long as SPN keeps doing this. While S8 did some things to balance it out, I want to see Sam and Dean on more equal footing as partners, that would make me happy as a fan of the relationship. While I didn't think Dean was caught in a passive role in season 8, and S8 did examine his issues, it also fell short there. I am baffled by the way he's kept so outside a main plot of his own. Why Castiel and Sam have very specific mytharc plots while Dean's plots are entirely emotional. Really liked your point about how valuable the emotional plot can be, but it needs the other piece to pull it all together. For the record, season 8 is one of my favorite Dean seasons in terms of personal characterization, and I really enjoyed season 8, but this is still an issue for me.

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  28. Very well written. You addressed many of the concerns I have for Dean's character and what I'd like to see happen for him and Sam as well. They both need a better balance and I agree that the unhealthy relationship they have being glorified is problematic. There's nothing wrong with loving your sibling more than anyone else, I know I do, but codependency isn't something that should be glorified and that's what it looks like the show is doing.


    Carver promised growth for Sam and Dean as individuals, I had hoped that this meant the brothers wouldn't grow apart, because they wouldn't need to to do this. They just have to learn how to be individuals. Maybe have Dean need Sam's help, like you said, so Sam would feel like he wasn't always failing Dean and Dean would know that his brother was there for him, not just in times of big sacrifices. Also surrounding Sam and Dean with more characters would definitely help with this and help with the interest in the show in general. We know Sam and Dean's relationship already. We've seen 8 seasons of it. I think after the first couple of seasons, interest was built upon other characters interacting with our main two. Overall I enjoyed season 8, and maybe it's just a transitional season to set up what Carver wants for 9 and a possible 10, maybe some of these issues will be dealt with.


    I don't know what to expect anymore really. We've lost Edlund and gained 3? more writers for the next season. At this point, I guess my wish would be to see more bad@ss hunters and the horror element brought back. And I'm interested to see what they do with Castiel. Just no more what's wrong with Sam? Give Sam a break!

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  29. I think that what Dean needs is his own hero's journey, that helps build his own character into something beyond being Sam's brother. It also needs to be an opportunity for others to show the same level of worry and care that Dean has shown them. I mean, it would just be nice for Dean to get the same level of attention, both from the writers and from the other members of TFW, for a change. I do agree though, enough with using mytharcs as an excuse to tear a character down - especially if it's purpose is just to build the other one up in contrast.

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  30. That's a good point. Codependency has always been a large part of Supernatural and I know I've seen people say that their crazy messed up relationship is one of the reasons a number of people like it so much... I think even unhealthy relationships can be better, when it's like you said, there is more of a balance. As long as their is a equal balance of give and take, it'd be at least a little bit healthier than what it is now.

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  31. Aren't you the person over on tumblr and twitter that is convinced Destiel is going to become canon and gets ~triggered when Sam and Dean have scenes together and hates on Meg just for having a vagina and started a fight with SE Hinton? I mean, if you are that same person, then your agenda seems pretty darn clear LOL

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  32. But we never see anyone throw in Dean's face how dare he sell his soul to save Sam (because that would make the other person look bad, not Dean.) Or place blame on him for kickstarting the apocalypse (because who could, considering his circumstances), nor did we see any lasting fallout from Dean's questionable actions like almost saying yes to Michael or mindwiping Lisa and Ben or killing Amy. Sam and Cas's transgressions have been far larger in scale and in depth in explored consequences and guilt placed upon them, even though Sam thought killing Lilith would STOP the apocalypse, and same for Cas when he allied with Crowley, etc.


    So the difference seems to be in how the writers choose to deal with the aftermath, and I agree that there's potential for Dean's choice to stop Sam from completing the trials to become one of these things that's reacted to by others as a wrong, selfish choice (that is, choosing Sam over the world), but I'll be honestly surprised if it's more than briefly touched on. The writers kind of built in an out to that in that Dean stopping hell closing isn't really directly causing any badness to happen; it's more maintaining the status quo. I think what Cas caused to happen to heaven is going to be the big guilt-trip of s9. But maybe I'll be wrong!

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  33. What a great article, Veronika: seriously. I love certain aspects of
    Dean's storyline this season, and love how they opened him up to accept
    his need for Cas to be in his life as well as his brother. I think his
    nurturing and essential gentleness are a vital element of what made me
    fall in love with him in the first place. But I am beyond tired of him
    being relegated to a passive support/onlooker role in the mytharc, and
    would welcome a switch next season, as well as lasting friendships for
    Sam outside of Dean. I'm hoping for an ensemble cast with a much less
    stifling atmosphere... and let's have Sam save Dean this time.

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  34. Yes I agree with you there, it would be nice if the Angel Trials in season 9 were linked with some kind of purpose for Dean that then gives him a win, and boosts his self confidence - tying in with his abilities as a leader. Kinda like Aragon. I saw some nice spec recently that as Michael's vessel, Dean is the perfect candidate not just to complete the Angel Trials but also help the angels get Heaven back - since Michael is supposed to be Heaven's leader in God's absence, Dean as his vessel would have somekind of gift that no one else has.

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  35. I agree that not all horrible episodes are the same quality. The worst Edlund episodes are better than the best by some other SPN writers. There were some Edlund episodes that really bothered me, like Simon Said, and Reading is Fundamental, and others that bored me, like Blood Brothers. I know most of those were probably more interesting than the average SPN episode, but I still sometimes prefer other episodes, even just OK ones.

    I wish he'd stayed with the show, I think he was their best writer, I just meant that I don't think it's unusual for writers to have an episode that is horrible, so I don't think they're going to be bad for that reason.

    I don't think the best of the recent SPN seasons is quite on a par with the best of some earlier seasons, but I think SPN has always had tons of OK-ish episodes elevated by the cast and the chemistry between them, sometimes the guest cast, etc.

    I think most of Robbie Thompson's episodes work because I think his writing style suits the current era of the show - fast, snappy, sometimes sentimental and melancholy, and a family/team dynamic instead of just Sam and Dean and the guest stars of the week. Adam Glass I have problems with but I think he's finally starting to get Dean, now I just need him to get Sam, and to have less clumsy pacing. I think Andrew Dabb does a good job with Dean and Sam as characters, he just needs to pace episodes better.

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  36. Do you have a comment on what she wrote in the actual article or did you just come to attack her instead? I don't always agree with Veronika, but that doesn't mean I can't like her article and read/respond to it objectively.

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  37. Because if you know what her real feelings are outside of how she is trying to sugar coat herself her to try and be ~mainstream, you will be able to see that her rant about co-dependency is really thinly veiled shipper bias. If Dean suddenly became co-dependent with Cas, she'd have a very different take on it.

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  38. Cas has been shamed enough already, but you're probably right.

    I think in seasons 3 and 4 they focused on the consequences of Dean's choice, because Sam began going dark, Dean broke the first seal, etc. Then it became about Sam's atonement. This was done as, I guess, some noble gesture or redemption for Sam.


    They spent seasons 5-7 talking about Dean's failures and faults, which is why I'm not sure I want to see this again, but I can understand why some feel Dean always being right is limiting to the character. That's why I think they need more stories where no one is wrong or right.

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  39. Yeah, it's not the devotion and codependency in and of itself that's hurting the story, it's how it gets presented and explored. The brand of codependency SPN has settled into for the brothers doesn't excite me. I think more balance, more development for each brother, and relationships with others would be key, and more flipping and shaking up their roles in re each other, and less stifling isolation and despair would help. S8 did a lot to shake up the isolation/despair, and made blatantly flirtatious moves at better balancing and switching up the dynamics but without enough autonomous plot story/agency for Dean, with Sam staying so isolated in his other relationships, without enough about Dean's issues, it's out of whack.

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  40. Thank you for this! Beautiful character analysis and breakdown of they storyline types and why Dean really should be included in the mythology storyline next season. Totally agree. I did love watching his character development this year, and Purgatory was great and the highlight of the season for me... but let's see a full on arc for him that is connected to the mythology of the show on a personal level. It really opens up possibilities for the show too.

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  41. news flash: NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT SHIPPING. not even for hardcore shippers.

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  42. She is destieliscanon on tumblr, so yeah, you got the right person. If Castiel was in the place of Sam, she'd be talking about how amazing their codependency is. I laughed the whole time I read this meta because it's clear what her agenda is.

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  43. everything is about shipping to extreme shippers, on both sides.

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  44. I truly believe that people that are HEAVILY biased about a relationship in a show shouldn't be allowed to write things like this. You are heavily biased against Sam and Dean's relationship so I can't take a single word of this seriously.

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  45. Okay to sum it all up. No I would be disgusted if Dean and Castiel were codependent, because believe it or not. I can separate my support from them compared to my individual support for Dean. Two, I don't hate Meg because she's female-bodied and your insinuations are baseless. Three Dean and Castiel won't get together, as long as queerbaiting takes place, which is incredibly problematic, and four. S.E. Hinton's twitter behavior was not okay. Although my personal conflicts with people have nothing to do with what I write. Thank you very much.

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  46. I agree with you about Dean in regards to the mytharc. I would really love for the writers to actively give him something to do and give Sam a bit of emotional POV for a change. A swap around in this regard is something I think most fans wouldn't object to. Sam leaving the room while Dean bonds with characters and then Dean exiting with said characters while Sam deals with the mytharc stuff is a tiring trend. This is a problem the show has long had, and has become especially prevalent under all of S8's other problems.

    Disagree about Sam and Dean's relationship though. Their mixed up bond has been the heart of the show since the very beginning and should be until the end. I'm not saying they should spend every waking minute together and have no friends, but their no.1 priority has always been the other (Carver's OOC crap aside) and I would be saddened were that to change before the show was done. Absolutely they should interact with and become close to other people but at the end of the day, this show was built around their co-dependency and I think the chances of them having anything resembling a healthy relationship sailed a very long time ago. I would appreciate getting a bit more of Sam's side of this, it'd be nice if the writers remembered he is capable of taking care of Dean too. Though with Carver's idea of their 'mature' relationship and the writing staff next season, I'm not holding my breath...

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  47. I think they attempted this in season 7. Dean starts the season disallusioned, apathetic, and bitter after Cas betrayed him. When Dick kills Bobby it pushes him over the edge and he becomes obsessed with revenge. In the end he's swept into Puratory during his attempt to take down Dick.

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  48. No, it's just what some people like to talk about the most, so they give the impression that that's all there is for them. But most people, Veronika included, are full capable of separating their shipping preferences from their other opinions. And actually, I would argue that fans' shipping preferences are based on their understandings of the characters, not vice versa.

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  49. I don't care about Veronikia's personal feelings outside of this mainstream article which addresses a part of the fandom's concerns regarding Dean. I'm just overjoyed that someone in her position had the guts to write about how many fans like myself have been feeling for nigh on three seasons. S8 made a positive step but still left Dean out in the cold. Dean and Cas' co-dependency is great, different, but is not on a par with Sam and Dean. I ship friendship and the brotherhood:)

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  50. I love how Dean and Castiel shippers bemoan the co-dependency of Dean and Sam, and yet continually talk about how beautiful the Castiel and Dean relationship is because "Castiel does everything for Dean, and doesn't Dean deserve someone who is all about him?" Cas/Dean shippers would kill for Dean to be codependent with Castiel and vice versa -- they're just angry cause the show has not yet provided that for them, and so blame it on the Sam and Dean relationship. :)

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  51. The best article ever about Dean hands down. Thank you for this brilliant exploration of Dean Winchester, how he became who he is, the nature of his struggles and what he's in desperate need for. I agree with everything you said, especially the way you highlighted the codependency issue.

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  52. Well, you've certainly given me a lot to think about! You right very eloquently and with great insight. I hope that maybe someone from Supernatural reads this, and then they can have a new perspective to think about too.

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  53. I like this article and I agree with most of it. But my question is why was the angel tablet storyline given to Castiel when the obvious choice was Dean because of the Michael/Heaven analogy? And why did he left his brother alone during the third trial to go "help" Cas? He could have been there with Sam and be part of that.

    I love Dean to have his own storyline, separated from certain fan service and connected to his brother. I want Dean to be the hero while Sam takes care of him. That would be fair and awesome.

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  54. Actually, I would hate for Dean and Castiel to end up co-dependant. The one reason why I have always liked their relationship is the balance and how they are portrayed an more equal. If they end up one sided then I would stop embracing it.

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  55. This was amazing, you really showed me a different perspective on why Dean is the way he is.

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  56. You are heavily biased against this the author of this article, so I can't take a single word of what you say seriously.

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  57. It's about time this was said. Thank you so much.

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  58. The only comment I want to make to this opinion piece is that sacrifice & love are interlinked, so to claim that the sacrifices Dean, or Sam, have made for one another "isn't love" is, in my opinion, overlooking the most important theme of Supernatural: family. Love goes hand in hand with this theme, look at the sacrifices that Mary Winchester, John Winchester, the boys, and so on have made (demon deals, dying, etc) that is love, pure & simple.

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  59. Superb article. As a fan of Dean's, it is getting more and more difficult to remain engaged in the show. I desperately hope that a worthy storyline is developed for him. The character is far too compelling and Jensen's rendering far too breathtaking to spend screen time on him scramble eggs and making burgers. Both Dean and Jensen deserve far better. Regardless of what some bloggers think, there is more to Dean than caring for his grown brother. And this is coming from a NON Destiel shipper.



    Thank you for giving voice to what SO many of us feel.

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  60. I'd love for Dean and Sam's relationship to be less co-depended and for them to finally
    learn to be their own person, but sadly I’m not holding my breath for Carver
    actually allowing that growth. I guess he wants to play it safe and let the
    Winchesters forever be stuck in their old, unhealthy (and frankly also stale)
    patterns. I’m not saying the Winchesters shouldn’t care about each other, they
    are brothers and they love each other and that’s fine, but I can really live
    without the sheer extreme the writers pushed Dean’s caretaker role for Sam this
    season (especially considering we also had hurt Sam in seasons 6 and 7 which
    imo isn’t doing Sam any favours either; making him the one character I can
    barely relate to nor understand. What’s a Sam like who isn’t constantly
    tormented/sick and in need of caring? I can barely remember). But back to Dean:
    I’d like for him to get an arc in which he also screws up majorly. Sam and
    Castiel were trying to do the right thing so often and ultimately failed, while
    Dean’s (almost) always right and there to pick up the pieces. I want to have
    them on the same level for once, for Dean to understand Sam and Cas and why
    they did what they did better then, and for Sam and Cas to be there for Dean
    and help him through it.

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  61. Insightful, thought provoking article. I think you're absolutely right- for Dean to get over his self esteem and codependency issues, he needs to do more than support the other characters. Of course Dean will look out for his loved ones. But you raise a very good point about how Sam also deserves a chance to reciprocate in watching out for his brother and, in the process, grow as a character.
    I hope the writers will look at changing things up and finally give Dean some agency in the S9 mytharc. As you pointed out, Dean was the only one left standing in the finale so he'd be the most logical choice to step up to the plate. But while I'd love to believe that's going to be the case, the brevity of the Purgatory storyline and how Dean was effectively benched in the trials make me wonder about the creative team's investment in his character. The producers only talked about "Sam's story" last season; here's hoping they decide to also focus on "Dean's story" in S9.

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  62. You do know what an Ad Hominem fallacy is, right? You do know how unintelligent and petty it makes a person look, right?

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  63. Dean has had the focus on both his story and Sam's that will change very little in season 9 .The co -dependancy of the brothers has been at the heart of the show from day 1 to complain about it now seems counter productive however I would argue that Dean is less co-dependant on Sam through the various relationships he has while Sam is more dependant as a character because all he has his Dean. I am not sure really what a 'mytharc' means for Dean has he has had that in both the Dean dominated season 4 his strong pov and exploration within Sam's mytharc and within Purgatory . The producers only talked about Sam's story is something we will havve to disagree with because I could argue that they only talked about Dean's story in season 7 . I did not think this article was very good it is a Dean centric article that set's out to push certain things for the character and a character I have never felt has been overly ignored and has pretty much been at the heart of everything going on. I certainly would like a more balanced brother's relationship and allowing Sam to finally open up is a step towards that after a show that has been dominated by Dean's pov and voice. As for the co-dependency that will always be there and no desire to see that go will change that .

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  64. Can't speak for all my fellow shippers, but one of the things that I love about Dean/Cas is that they demand to be treated as equals. And I know quite a few people who agree with me.

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  65. Just to state that if there was any character development for Dean in season, I credit Jensen and only Jensen. Carver did nothing for Dean except sideline him and the writers did nothing for the character at all except give him useless busy work

    Season 9, so far from that uninspiring finale, looks to be more of the same.

    As a Dean fan, there is nothing to look forward to in season 9 but if you show this article to Carver or Singer, they will give you a blank look and ask Dean Who? That is their mentality.

    Having said that, great article. Dean deserves more than to be Sam's manservant just because Dean is too dynamic to ignore and the show runners and writers are too lazy to bother writing for such a great and iconic character and talented actor.

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  66. I don't understand why people want the characters in Supernatural to
    be 'normal'. That's not what the show is about, and quite frankly, it's
    impossible for any of them. If I wanted to watch a show about perfectly
    normal, well adjusted people I would watch one of the dozens of other
    shows available on TV. But I don't. I enjoy Sam and Dean's relationship
    because it isn't real. It isn't true to life. It's a fantasy, an escape.




    I think it's important to remember that Sam and Dean AREN'T
    REAL. They are FICITIONAL CHARACTERS and it's okay for them to be messed
    up. It's okay for them to be co-dependent and messy and love each other
    more than anyone else. No one who enjoys their relationship on the show
    as it is would ever espouse that kind of relationship in real life, but
    that doesn't mean that it's wrong to enjoy it in a FANTASY setting like
    television. There are many, many shows that illustrate this--House, for
    example, whitewashes the actions of a verbally and emotionally abusive
    asshole because he saves lives. The kid show Good Luck, Charlie shows a
    horrifyingly dysfunctional family life. Same for shows like Everybody
    Loves Raymond, Roseanne (showing my age, I know) and every soap opera in
    existence.

    But the people watch these shows understand that the
    characters AREN'T REAL. They watch because they want to see something
    different from their everyday life. They want OTT drama or humor, they
    want larger than life. That's what Supernatural delivers. Everything
    about Sam and Dean is larger than life, including their problems, and
    that's the way it should be. I don't want to watch a show about
    well-adjusted brothers who send each other Christmas cards and call each
    other on the phone every couple of weeks. I want intensity and drama
    and co-dependency and love-you-more-than-anything. That's what
    Supernatural is about, it's what made it a great show, and it would be
    ridiculous to try and change it into the Hardy boys now.


    Sorry if this posts twice, I had some trouble logging in.

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  67. That wasn't a story arc for Dean. That was more busywork while everyone did everything.

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  68. I don't think Dean has been made to feel responsible for Sam's or Cas' choices this season. The text was the only thing he felt responsible for.


    I would say in the narrative Dean is usually proven right. He was right about why Cas shouldn't take the souls. He was right about Naomi. He was right about the demon blood in season 4. He was right about Amy.


    The Michael story was unclear, because Dean spent a long time not wanting to be Michael. He only agreed to be Michael after he felt like a failure.


    I'm not sure if anyone matters in a direct way to the mytharc, they just suffer. You could say Cas matters, but mattering means showing up occasionally to be used or to be manipulated and then feel more guilt. Sam mostly got sick and wanted to die.


    I would rather see a different type of writing if Dean is ever in the mytharc.

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  69. That's the point. We get his emotions, but he is never center of the main story. In fact all they do is give Dean emotions. I will gladly give Sam the POV for a while to see Dean be the one who carries the main arc for a change.
    Jensen can have more time off doing a plot driven story, in fact much more than making him the POV center all the time, who has too watch andf react to Sam or Cas in action.
    If so many, many fans can see this issue, maybe where there's smoke there's fire?

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  70. The trials were a sham. I'm not sure who they will give the actual angel tablet story to next season.

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  71. Dean is actually the person I most hear discussed. Cas and Sam have often been plot devices and indecipherable in recent seasons.

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  72. Bravo. Excellent article on Dean and on the problem with his storyline -- or lack of -- in season 8.

    "Supernatural is the story of Sam and Dean, and it shouldn't be the story of a tortured hero and his brother accompanying him on the road, but the story of two heroes overcoming what others throw at them individually and as a unit."
    That is the crux of the matter, isn't it? The show is sold as the story of two brothers, two heroes, but comes out as the story of this one guy and his sidekick. So either tell the story as you sell it, or stop pretending.

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  73. What bothers me about that tho is that nobody ever truly acknowledges that Dean was right (with more than an offhand comment). Both Sam and Cas spend half a season telling Dean that he's wrong while ignoring his advice/pleas. And Dean already blames himself in large parts for what happens/ed to both Sam and Cas! And suffers greatly when they are suffering.

    And if Dean messed up he would just beat himself up more and doubt himself etc. Dean messing up on such a large scale like Sam and Cas could truly break him. Personally I have no interest in seeing that.

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  74. This is a fantastic read. Dean Winchester is my favorite character, and everything you wrote about are things that I've raged about constantly. It's nice to see someone who feels the same, and writes about it so well. Dean deserves a plot that centers on himself and himself only, not taking care of/worry about Sam and/or Cas. It's such a simple thing, but the writers seem incapable of doing it. His PTSD and mental health should also be addressed, as should the unhealthy codependency. It's time to change things up, and tackle these things appropriately. I can only dream that the writers could one day feel the same as we do. Thank you so much for writing this!

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  75. I see Dean get discussed quite a bit by fandom yes, but in the media it's often Sam, Castiel, Crowley, Kevin more than Dean and Dean mainly gets mentioned by the bloggers as an extension of Sam.

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  76. If you're essentially brainwashed from a very young and impressionable age to sacrifice yourself for another person, then no, that's not love. It's that brainwashed person successfully fulfilling the role their brainwashing assigned to them.

    I'm not saying that Dean doesn't love Sam, but he's a very damaged person. He's not choosing to protect or save Sam because he's his brother and he loves him - he's saving him because it's what John told him he had to do, taught him he had to do in order to be the good son, the deserving son, the worthy son. It's like that saying: if you love something, let it go, and if it comes back to you, then it's yours - but if it doesn't, then it was never yours to begin with. With what John did to Dean for all those years, he made it impossible for Dean to ever willingly walk away from Sam, if Sam needs him - like Sam is so very fond of doing to Dean. That's not fair to Dean. Not remotely. A sacrifice can be something done out of love, but the whole point of it is that the person who has to make the choice has the capacity TO CHOOSE, which Dean was never allowed to have. That's the difference.

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  77. It is a very well written article and goes into a lot of points especially the codependency issues. Though to me the codependency issue of the past flips completely in the finale. Even with the lack of his own agency this season, he has shown growth on the codependency. He talks to Charlie, he talked to Benny (even though in the end he ditched him) about personal aspects and unlike with Bobby and Garth it he didn't receive the expected response of suck it up and look after Sam because that is all you have. He didn't automatically back down and cave when Sam gave him the ultimatium, he mulled on it for a bit. Granted he did ditch Benny in the end but it wasn't as automatic given at the point when Sam issued the ultimatum.


    Sam is the one turning completely codependent. He's now a martyr to Dean's approval, he is less independent than he was before. But Dean has passed asking Sam to stay for his sake, he isn't asking Sam to hold back because of what he thinks. He said chose the job or Amelia one or other. Sam was the one who took it as Dean or Amelia. With regard to Sam not looking, Carver said that it was a mature choice - the only mature thing about it was the idea that Sam made a choice - it is his response to it that is telling. He pushed off on Dean and his agreement, not because he couldn't. His rationale to the choice isn't he couldn't but Dean wouldn't have wanted him too. But not only that he pushed Dean away but at the same time became possessive of Dean when he found out about Benny. Dean is slipping more and more into the parent mode of an emotionally stunted, sick teenager the way things ended.


    Now others have said that Dean's emotional arc in season 7 got talked up so it kind of balances out that Sam's got talked up in this one, but Sam had an obvious arc in season 7, Dean didn't in season 8 because someone needed to take care of Sam and Dean is good at that, unlike Sam who it seems to have been relegated to being just able to take care of a dog. In season 9, if they actually want some growth from Sam and not to regress Dean they need to give Sam some friends, they need to show that Sam is able to cope on his own without a crutch such as Amelia and they need to show that Sam can support in a manner that is similar to how Dean supports him. They need to cut that apron string that is at present tying the boys, because really this story is going to become either the Supernatural version of Downtown Abbey with blue collar Dean seeing to the needs of white collar Sam, Kevin and Cas or even worse Sam and Cas asking Dean for permission slips to go to the bathroom while Dean cooks them dinner if Carver isn't careful.

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  78. Nicole Katrine OrrJune 2, 2013 at 10:18 PM

    Wow, this is one of the most awesomely written articles I have ever seen written on Dean. You are a true professional! You also revealed several things to me I've never noticed before, like how briefly the show spent on Dean's time in purgatory and the affects it had on him and how separate the brothers are from the world they're "supposedly protecting."

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  79. Awesome.Dean does need to be more active and stop putting himself down.Dean is a awesome person.And for Sam and Cas to help him gain a better view of his life.Awesome writing of my favorite person,Dean.

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  80. "I don't think Dean has been made to feel responsible for Sam's or Cas' choices this season. The text was the only thing he felt responsible for. "

    I have to disagree again. I think the writers made a point of showing that Dean's rejection of Cas left him vulnerable to Metatron's manipulations and that Sam's sudden and out of the blue suicidal tendencies come back to Dean daring to feel disappointed by Sam's many betrayals. Why else would Carver write Dean declaring that nothing and no on matters to him more than Sam. Why is Dean the one having to reassure Sam yet again that he is the focus of Dean's universe, when Sam is actually the one who is always wanting more than Dean? To me those were very clear metastatements that it is Dean's behavior that needs to change rather than Sam's or Cas'.

    "I would say in the narrative Dean is usually proven right. He was right about why Cas shouldn't take the souls. He was right about Naomi. He was right about the demon blood in season 4. He was right about Amy."

    I would agree with this if the show hadn't written Sam as basically using Amy as an excuse to hate Benny and seeming perfectly justified in doing so since he still resented Dean's relationship with Benny even in the finale, thus forcing Dean to point out that Benny was expendable for Sam's sake.

    "I would rather see a different type of writing if Dean is ever in the mytharc."



    This I agree with completely. It's time the show stopped treating all of it's characters a morons who can barely walk and chew gum at the same time.

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  81. "What bothers me about that tho is that nobody ever truly acknowledges that Dean was right (with more than an offhand comment)"


    This is very true. Especially when Sam and Cas continue to make the same mistakes over and over again and yet, Dean is still expected to suck it up or he's treated like the big bad meanie for daring to point out there mistakes. Yet no one on the show ever acknowledges Dean's positive qualities. Not even supposedly Dean-centric characters like Charlie who spend more time talking up Sam even as they are hanging out with Dean.

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  82. I stopped finding the codependency satisfying when it became so one-sided. I know Dean is devoted to Sam. I don't need him to have to prove it over and over again and I feel like that's all he's been given since the end of season 5. For once, I would like to see Sam show equal amounts of devotion to Dean and to do it directly in front of Dean. He can start by not stomping off in a huff everytime Dean does something he doesn't like.

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  83. but at least Sam was likeable in s6, and the moment of him behaving out of character were explained in canon.

    S8 on the other hand made me despise Sam, something that up untill this season I thought was impossible

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  84. OMG did someone dare to write about Dean without salivating over Sam? How shocking on this site.

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  85. Yes and that's exactly the point I tried to make in my comment above. People are drawn to these stories for something outside the usual. I'm finding the way Sam and Dean keep lather, rinse, repeat the same codependent patterns over and over again dull.


    Even fantasy/horror needs to be grounded in some level of believability--of emotional believability. SPN, this is wearing thin, I don't want Sam and Dean to become caricatures of themselves or the relationship to become a caricature of itself.


    There are plenty of people in this fandom who would line up to say that's not "getting what SPN is all about"--but the discussion here *is* about what SPN is about. I don't see how it's good for the brother relationship to keep playing the same exact pattern again and over. And I don't think other relationships, an expanded cast, something that shakes up the brother relationship dynamics, makes it the Hardy boys, or turns SPN into a soap opera, or into something it isn't meant to be.

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  86. While I agree we need more emotion-based arcs for Sam--I feel like Sam himself has been lost under a pile of supernatural What's Wrong With Sam plots--Dean's lack of plot for his own sake, and a storyline that doesn't funnel back to being Sam's protector as his reason for existence, has been a problem for a while.

    "Many people's favourite version of dean is him being the awesomely protective big brother and long may it continue."



    Many fans do enjoy that. Many fans also feel that Dean the awesome protective big brother is limiting the character, and limiting to the Sam and Dean relationship. Dean's protectiveness towards those he loves (and not just Sam) is a part of his character I admire. But as this article points out, Dean's self-perception issues means he believes that's all he's good for, and fans are frustrated and seeing him locked into that time and again. Sam AND Dean, both, are rich, complicated, layered characters.


    I did read Ms. MacKenzie's article and completely disagreed with her thesis that Supernatural is Sam's story, and Dean's story=Sam. That doesn't seem very "two brothers" friendly to me--that sounds like the show's about Sam, and Dean's only real purpose is to be devoted to Sam. That's not the SPN I've been watching since 2005.

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  87. Very interesting views, after re-watching the first 2 seasons (the ones that got us all HOOKED) I think many fans found the "learning as they went along" endearing and brought us along for the ride. Their MASTER hunting skills can become mundane and take away from the new monster weekly intrigue. We all know both are emotionally impaired and have already given everything for each other. Finding Dean in the mature (physically and mentally) role can add to the story line, only to a point. I say this because Sam with no longer be in the "weakened" state that the fans need him to be AND still be able to keep up with Dean. The ending of season eight was done so well, leaving the possibilities endless, so note to writers, Please don't drop the ball - the possibilities for gross, gut wrenching, humor laced jaw dropping shows are there! Love you guys! Laura K

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  88. Carina MacKenzie *admitted* that she's a biased Sam fan. Of course she's going to spin things so that it all revolves around Sam and 'oh, what a surprise, EVERYTHING is about Sam and isn't that WONDERFUL?".

    No. No, it's not. It's not wonderful. It's about as far from wonderful as you can get - especially if you're a long-time Dean fan who's tired of watching Dean all but wipe Sam's nose for him.

    The fact is, Dean is NEVER the champion. It's always, always, ALWAYS been Sam. And, according to Carina, that's how it SHOULD be and how she likes it. Their co-dependent relationship is a-okay with her, because that's what she likes - getting to watch Sam be the special, coddled, put-upon emo hero all the time while Dean twiddles his thumbs all season, waiting for a storyline that's never going to materialize.

    Well, sorry, but no - that's NOT how it should be. That's NOT what makes the show good. That is NOT what the show should revolve around. The show was presented as the story of two brothers - two equals - not Big Damn Hero Sam and his chauffeur sidekick/dullard brother Dean who does everything but wipe his butt for him.

    Like the author of this article said (and like LOTS of Dean fans have been saying for some time, now): it's time for Dean to be the hero, time for Dean to be the one who gets taken care of for a change rather than constantly babying his brother, time for Dean to be allowed to develop and recover from all the damage he's undergone since he was four years old.

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  89. Aside from a couple of throwaway comments from Sam, I saw no evidence that killing Dick was any kind of specific arc for Dean. It's not like Sam wasn't there with him every step of the way, while dealing with his own exclusive storyline of he hellucinations. In fact, Bobby seemed far more revenge-driven than Dean and no one ever said that Dean and only Dean could kill Dick. Dean being involved in a storyline along with all the other characters is not the same as him having his own storyline. In season 7, getting rid of Leviathan mytharc that was important to both brothers, Bobby and Cas. But the difference is that while Sam, bobby and Cas also had other things going on, all Dean had was worrying about the three of them and a couple of scenes where he talked about revenge but wasn't allowed to do anything specific to get it.

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  90. That does seem to be the way the wincesters take any suggestion that Dean should be important in his own right.

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  91. The quality of the storytelling doesn't negate the fact that the trials and the MOL storyline and the amelia were both very specifically samcentric. That's three storylines for Sam while Dean had purgatory at the beginning and then nothing to do but react in the latter two thirds of the season.

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  92. So you want Dean to learn yet another lesson in unconditional love while relinquishing what little use he still has on show which is to occasionally have good instincts from time to time.


    Also this show has never made Dean right all the time and certainly no one on the show ever acknowledges it. If Sam and Cas actually had some respect for his judgement, one would think they might actually listen to him once in a while. But they don't and they are rarely called on it by anyone but Dean, who is then forced to apologize for judging them too harshly.


    What this show needs is for the people who continually dismiss Dean and treat him like he's useless because he didn't go to college or doesn't have supernatural powers, to actually celebrate his humanity for a change instead of using it as an excuse to beat him down for it.

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  93. I'm not sure what Sam's arc was this season, but that's a longer discussion. I'll concede the tail end of Sam's hell trials was better connected, but that's with several asterisks. But I'd also argue that Dean's Purgartory story was better executed than Sam's handrubs, umm, mental break.

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  94. Carina MacKenzie is a rabid Sam/Jared fan so the fact that she loves the show exactly as it is, tells you just how samcentric the show has become.

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  95. The big difference between Dean and Cas's relationship versus Sam and Dean's relationship is obvious, if you can be bothered to pay attention.

    Yes, Cas has often said that everything he does is for Dean, HOWEVER - when it comes down to it, when Cas has to make a choice, he will often choose to do what he thinks is right, even though that might run counter to what Dean would rather he do. We've seen it countless times, now -- Cas going up against Raphael on his own so he doesn't have to take Dean away from his apple pie life with Lisa, choosing to go to Heaven to confront Metatron on his own, even confronting Crowley when he was low on juice so that he could get the demon tablet back and protect Kevin, choosing to stay with the man in the old folk's home, deciding to stay behind in Purgatory to continue his penance.

    In all of those cases, Dean would have preferred that Cas make a different choice, but he didn't - he made the one he wanted to make, based on the information he had and the thought he might be able to fix things or protect his loved ones. Cas has free will. Ironically, Dean taught him what it is by example, even though they started out as basically in the same boat: beholden and obligated to families that could basically take or leave them. Cas has surpassed his teacher, and I think it's high time that Cas help Dean overcome his own programming so that he can finally have the life he deserves.

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  96. And yet if this was one of Carina's 'omg Sam is so dreamy and awesome and the show totally revolves around him and is all about him'-fests you'd be all over it. Shut up and go away.

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  97. Charlie spent as much time piling on Dean for being mean to Sam and pimping Sam to Dean and to the audience as she did getting into capers with Dean. She is the new writer mouth-piece on the show now that Jim Beaver and DJ Qualls are not as available.

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  98. Destiel fans are the mainstream. We don't have to 'try'.


    And Dean and Sam *are* co-dependent. A character on the show with an omnipresent point of view said as much. I think that means that, yeah, they actually really, seriously are.


    You support highly unhealthy (and in many states, also highly illegal) behavior between two siblings. I'd much rather that was not mainstream, kthx.

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  99. "separated from certain fan service and connected to his brother" -- Dean and Castiel isn't fanservice. It's a canon bond that is actually important on the show. That Dean had a moment with his best friend isn't fanservice. That Dean has someone he cares for outside Sam isn't what's diminishing Dean's story. While I wouldn't want to see Dean consumed with being Castiel's caretaker, any more than I want to see any more of that from Dean re Sam, Castiel at least breaks things out a little, broadens the layers and ways we get to see Dean, Dean doesn't define his whole purpose in life as being Castiel's protector, and as a matter of fact, while Castiel has at times been over-consumed with equating his own value to being Dean and Sam's guardian and Dean's protector in particular, Castiel doesn't define himself that narrowly either, although he does have some self-image issues (like Dean and Sam).


    Dean should have his "own storyline"--but only if it's about Sam, connected to Sam, and keeps him at Sam's side every single scene...I have to disagree with that. That's making it all about Sam, not all about Dean IMO.

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  100. Thank you so much for this amazing article. I recently wrote on my Tumblr page my theories/observation of the relationship between Dean and Sam as a parent child dynamic. I am glad to see someone else shares my thoughts. Regardless of what the next season brings, I wish nothing but the best for these characters and accolades for the actors that are so richly deserved.

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  101. I agree that Charlie is a mouthpiece but the message Dean is getting isn't exactly the same to what Jim Beaver and D J Qualls gives. Yes she bigs up Sam to Dean, but Dean actually talks the issue all the way through so he not only gets her response but it is out in the open before he gets she gives it too him - before it was just stated no fleshing out (even if it was a warped perception) before we got Bobby's reply of simply 'suck it up' or Garth's 'you have your brother isn't that beautiful' after having a full episode of going you two aren't talking.


    Charlie maybe a little bit of a mouth piece but she is a healthier mouthpiece than we have had before from a mental health perspective.

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  102. And they didn't even have the good grace to try to resolve Dean's alcoholism arc at the end of the season. They just chucked him into Purgatory to go cold turkey and figured that would be all she wrote, no follow-up necessary.

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  103. Uggggh. Can't we have ANYBODY else back besides those two? That episode blew leprous goldfish. >:( If we're losing Ben, can't we at least get somebody good?!

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  104. Very interesting and useful articles

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  105. And I don't understand why you would prefer these characters to be forever stuck as stunted emotional cripples with no hope of ever getting better or growing as individuals. Because, yeah, that's the kind of show you wanna spend 8+ years of your life on: a show where nothing ever gets better, nobody grows or evolves, nothing of importance or motivating impact ever occurs. You might as well go and watch the wall, if you can't stand to see people ever change, because that's kind of the whole point of STORIES and the key to how you tell a successful and satisfying one.

    Frankly, what you want is extremely unhealthy and sends a tidal wave of horrible, dangerous messages to young people watching the show.

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  106. Show dominated by Dean's POV and voice? Now I STRONGLY disagree with this!
    Especially when Sam not only got the main first half story with Amelia, but then he got the bulk of the MOL arc, the trials,the illness that went with it, he also got his POV about wanting a normal life, and his teary confession to Dean. As for seson 4. Dean was supposed to have an important arc, but Sam's demon blood addiction and arc with Ruby got more attention. Also Dean was supposed to stop Lucifer in season 5, but they took that away from him, and, yes, gave it to Sam.
    Over the course of the series, Sam has always gotten the most importance and focus, while Dean's main role has been to support and take care of him. Jensen is supposed to be a co-lead with Jared, not his sidekick.

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  107. Cas isn't fan service. He's the key element that the producers have been wise enough to hang onto after he single-handedly revitalized a withering series. Because a story about two guys killing monsters can only go on for so long before it gets hella stale.

    Season seven with its crappy, contrived 'brothers-stuck-in-a-box-all-alone' storyline and suitably abysmal ratings (it's seriously a wonder the show didn't get cancelled -- the lowest episode rating for season seven was 1.56- which figures, since Sera Gamble wrote that episode and she was the one who unceremoniously shoved Cas out of the story because she didn't know what to do with him - and it's highest was for 2.01 for the premiere - while season 8 enjoyed significantly higher ratings, with episode 8x02 showing the first proper flashbacks with Cas in Purgatory coming in a remarkable 2.51 million viewers, while the *premiere* of season 8 only opened with 1.85 million - almost every episode after that enjoyed much higher ratings than the previous season and episodes with Cas in them did even better) is proof enough of what the show is like when Cas isn't around.


    Without Cas, this show would have passed its expiration date and been cancelled a long time ago. I know it sucks to be confronted by that, but it's the truth. The proof is in the ratings.

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  108. "I have to disagree again. I think the writers made a point of showing that Dean's rejection of Cas left him vulnerable to Metatron's manipulations and that Sam's sudden and out of the blue suicidal tendencies come back to Dean daring to feel disappointed by Sam's many betrayals. Why else would Carver write Dean declaring that nothing and no on matters to him more than Sam. Why is Dean the one having to reassure Sam yet again that he is the focus of Dean's universe, when Sam is actually the one who is always wanting more than Dean? To me those were very clear metastatements that it is Dean's behavior that needs to change rather than Sam's or Cas'."

    I thought the writing made a point of showing that Cas was falling into old patterns which were no one's fault but his own. The scene with Dean and Cas might have helped push Cas into working with Metatron, but it was just going with most of what he already felt. Dean was hurt by Cas, and he said this, but he also asked Cas to stay and get better. Then when Cas came back to ask for help, Dean agreed, pushing down any doubts he had because of what Cas wanted. I felt like the writing made it Cas' responsibility, especially compared to the writing in past seasons, where characters actually told Dean that he had destroyed Cas at the very first touch.

    I feel like they had the scene with Dean and Sam precisely because Dean wants other people in his life. This makes some fans say that the show should only be about the brothers, and resent the other characters. I know they had Dean make the comments earlier about the demon blood, soulless, etc. to set some of Sam's meltdown in motion, but most of that I would say was based on Sam's own lack of self-esteem, which is on him, not on Dean. I took the scene as Dean reminding Sam, and therefore viewers, that Sam is the most important relationship in his life, and that Cas and Benny are not some type of Sam replacements - they're very important to Dean for different reasons. I felt like the episode and most of the season showed that Dean can have other people in his life and that Sam's struggle to accept this isn't Dean's fault, it's something Sam has to deal with himself.

    "I would agree with this if the show hadn't written Sam as basically using Amy as an excuse to hate Benny and seeming perfectly justified in doing so since he still resented Dean's relationship with Benny even in the finale, thus forcing Dean to point out that Benny was expendable for Sam's sake."



    Yes but this basically showed that Dean had been right. He was right that Benny was a good man. Sam resenting him even after Benny died for him showed how dark a place Sam is in right now. Dean had already reassured Sam in the way that would cause Dean the most pain ever (killing Benny). If Sam was still upset about Benny's role in Dean's life I think that was to show just how much Sam needs to find himself again.

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  109. Not just that, but actually DEFEND dysfunctional and unhealthy behavior by saying crap like 'well, it's television! they're not real people! the show would be boring if they were normal!'. But the point is, we don't mind if they're not normal - just the fact that the live the way they live and do what they do GUARANTEES that they will never be entirely normal - we would just prefer that their unhealthiness of their relationship not be the writer's go-to crutch when they run out of ideas yet again.

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  110. What MOL story? What story did Sam get that Dean didn't w/the MOL? They found the bunker. They both live in the bunker. That wasn't a story. It was a set. And it wasn't exclusive to Sam. Dean's there too.
    Amelia. What story? Sam's horrifically boring FBs were not a story, and it certainly wasn't one ANYONE cared about. Are you saying you envied the Amelia story and wanted that crap for Dean/Jensen? I doubt it. Plus, it's not like Dean didn't get Purgatory FBs and Benny. People act as if that didn't occur. Did it occur well? No, but then neither did Amelia. The first half of this season was pure and utter crap, and Sam fared much WORSE than Dean in terms of characterization and storytelling.
    And the trials? Well, they were essentially pointless, but Sam didn't do them alone. Dean was right there w/him.
    Look, I agree that Dean wasn't given anything to do towards the end of the season, but I don't think the crap Sam got was so much better. This season sucked all around.

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  111. I meant the angel trials were a sham.


    I don't really think the Men of Letters story was Sam specific. They talked this up in interviews but I think this was mostly to make up for the failure of Amelia and Sam. Most of the MOL story on the show has gone equally to Sam and Dean.


    I took Sam collapsing as a cliffhanger, not a sign of a story, but you may be right. But he's kept out of every part of the angel tablet storyline. If he was going to be involved I think they would have included him in some way.

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  112. The whole idea of MOL is you can make it what you want it to be. Dean loves the place. Dean has changed it and explored and done what he wanted to do.

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  113. I hear you. Hopefully, someone with the opposite bias will post his/her thoughts to balance out the articles.

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  114. Uh . . . Sera or someone said they were starting a 15 episode emotional story arc for Dean. That was stated early on in the season. Was it executed well? No, but Dean definitely had the emotional focus for like 17 straight episodes.

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  115. Most of the media coverage for the show is weak, I agree.


    I think in terms of fan focus, Dean tends to get the most talk, even if this doesn't translate to the story he deserves. Last month at a con Ty Olsson joked about people asking Jensen what his facial expression in a scene in a season 6 episode meant, while they just asked him how Jensen smells.

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  116. The hand rubs were a pathetic joke! Dean's Purgatory was infinitely better told, and Dean's story wasn't even told well, IMO. But last year's Wall aftermath was much worse!

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  117. Charlie made one comment to Dean about Sam, after Dean told her about the text. Most of her interaction with Dean has barely focused on Sam. She wants to know how Dean is. She wants Dean to know she cares about him. She thanked him for saving the world. She told him she loved him (I know it was a Star Wars joke but how often has he heard the comment in his life, even as a joke). She embraced him with open arms even when he convinced her to let her mother go. None of that involves Sam or capers.

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  118. Bob Singer talked up Sam and the MOL in an interview, but onscreen I agree it's been equally divided. The idea is that it's more important to Sam because now he doesn't have to see hunting as the life, but it's also very important to Dean. I think the MOL was the thing this season they wrote with the most balance and care.

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  119. What bothers me about the soulless Sam story is you have Sam doing some terrible things to Dean and yet any time Dean remembers this, it's a mark against him, because that wasn't really Sam. I think it was an unfair story for the characters. But I agree that they did give an explanation.


    Most of what I was saying was that I don't know if I can judge these new/old writers on season 6 because the season had some behind the scenes problems.


    I didn't understand Sam the first half of this season, leading up to Citizen Fang, where he seemed like an evil twin. The second half felt more like Sam to me, but still not the best he can be. I hope this will improve next season.

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  120. I agree. The MOL story was the best story they had this year, and they didn't even do anything w/it. I loved ATGB and genuinely believe that's how the season should have started.

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  121. Exactly. Charlie couldn't care less about Sam like every guest star on this show. Sam needs a freakin' friend b/c - other than Dean - he has NONE!!!!!
    I know this is a Dean-centric article, but I'm sure most here would agree that Sam should get a friend since they don't seem to care for the Sam/Dean relationship.

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  122. The trials did wind up ultimately being pointless in the finale, however that's *not* how they were characterized for a majority of the season. Sam taking on the trials, and the resulting illness had Dean taking care of him for most of the season - again, even though the story didn't *go* anywhere, they still managed to make it all about Sam because Dean was stuck taking care of him and literally doing almost nothing else. So yeah, Dean was 'right there with him' but not actually contributing anything to the story itself, except for yet again underlining how Dean is (yet again) putting his own very legitimate pain and problems aside in favor of Sam's, which... what the hell is the point of that?

    It's going over ground they've already covered a million and one times by now. They need to find a new story besides 'Sam is in trouble because he has to do the thing, Dean ignores his own pain and helps him try to do the thing'. Like Veronika said: it's perpetually reinforcing Dean's pathology that he is worthless unless he's protecting and caring for his brother.



    I'm sorry, but Dean deserves so much better than that.

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  123. I didn't care for this season and don't think either brother had the advantage over the other in terms of how everything played out.
    I do agree w/you guys that Dean wasn't given much to do. I really took notice of that in one of the latter episodes - can't remember which one. That said, Dean is never "gone" from the show.
    I have no idea why the writers don't think they can give both Sam and Dean mytharc and POV. It really shouldn't be that difficult.

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  124. Just FYI, I tweeted this to Jim Michaels and Russ Hamilton and told them this was something they really needed to read.

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  125. It's not about not caring for Sam and Dean's relationship as brothers.


    It's just that they need to do a hell of a lot more with it (ie. allow them to grow as individual characters so that it's not always 'something's wrong with Sam!' 'don't worry, Dean will fix it') as well as allow them to have their own friendships.


    Because the lazy crap the writers pull with this 'brothers-in-a-box' nonsense hurts Sam and Dean BOTH.


    We know Sam and Dean love each other and that they're brothers. The point is... WHAT ELSE IS THERE? They have to know the answer to that question otherwise the show is going to stagnate again and there'll be nowhere else for them to go, because they'll have painted themselves into a corner yet again.

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  126. Carina identified herself as heavily biased towards Sam and the brothers' relationship vis a vis the show being allaboutSam and Dean's story even being allaboutSam. Your argument is invalid. Carina's been posting here for ages. It's nice to see someone look at things from Dean's side for once in a bloody blue moon.

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  127. I love reading good solid character and story analysis. You've hit on some of the issues I've had with this show so well, ones I haven't been able to completely put into words too. I would LOVE to see more side characters WHO DONT GET KILLED OFF or ditched interract with the brothers. I think if they play it right, Crowley could be something of a friend for sam but I'm so afraid theyre just going to poof him evil again. It would be a horrible shame especially since he seemed to be reaching to sam in the end of the last episode.

    Dean is due up for a main focus plotline. I just hope they don't saddle him as Sam and Castiel's caretaker in the first few eps of next season. Find yourself dean!

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  128. But I don't think their codependency is something simple enough that you can just "put a stake" through it. It's like, well, why didn't they just put a stake in Dr. House's vicodin addiction? Why don't they just put a stake in Dexter Morgan's need to kill people? Unhealthy behaviors aren't produced in a bubble; they're the product of or otherwise inextricably tied to the severe emotional scars and trauma you mention. Characters can try to move away from it, or outside circumstances can temporarily cause changes in their life that cause its forefrontedness to vary, but it's not something boredom with or further traumas or a thousand hugs from other people will fix that easily. There'd have to be a long term period of treatment for the underlying issues that caused things like their codependence and self-worth issues and unhealthy views on family and revenge and a whole slew of other warped outlooks that are ingrained into their very senses of self for them to believably come to even somewhat healthy, independent places in their relationship, IMO. It's not something they can just ~get over~ one day, and frankly I don't know that I'd be interested in watching Therapynatural.

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  129. "It's like, well, why didn't they just put a stake in Dr. House's vicodin addiction? Why don't they just put a stake in Dexter Morgan's need to kill people?"


    That's kind of the whole point -- Sam and Dean are still young, so there's no saying that they can't recover from this behavior and become healthy individuals with realistic and comfortable boundaries for themselves and their relationship with each other. Co-dependency is NOT sociopathy, it is a very unhealthy pathology, but something that people *can* recover from, provided they recognize it for what it is and do what they can to stop perpetuating that unhealthy behavior. People can't be 'cured' of sociopathy. It's also not like addiction, but as we've seen, it can be just as devastating. And even House had a moment where he was able to hold off on taking the Vicodin he thought he needed because Wilson needed it more at that point. So even in that smallest of ways, House was able to stop - granted, he didn't quit permanently, but it's a start.


    "Unhealthy behaviors aren't produced in a bubble; they're the product of or otherwise inextricably tied to the severe emotional scars and trauma you mention."


    Right, but again - House's drug addiction and Dexter's sociopathy are two entirely different problems. And, in Dean's case, being around your #1 trigger 24/7 (ie. Sam) is clearly NOT helping him.


    "but it's not something boredom with or further traumas or a thousand hugs from other people will fix that easily."


    No. But 'it'd be really hard' is no excuse for them to not try to tell that story all the same. Any writer worth half a shit would be drooling all over himself for a storyline like that.


    "It's not something they can just ~get over~ one day, and frankly I don't know that I'd be interested in watching Therapynatural."



    No, it's not something they can just get over, but lemme tell you - JustGlossOverItAndHopeTheAudienceForgetsnatural is just as fucking tiresome.

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  130. YMMV but I had no problem w/the brothers relationship and how they interacted in S6 or S7. I thought they were much more like co-workers than brothers in S7, but they were in a fine place, IMO. I didn't see anything unhealthy about their relationship or their interactions.
    This season started w/unnecessary, IMO, conflict and tension for no reason other than to have conflict and tension. I'm happy the brothers ended up in a good place from ATGB forward. I think it's good that they care about each other and would do anything to help each other. I don't have a problem w/that. I never did.
    So, it's not real clear to me what you guys want to see. I just don't want unnecessary drama for the sake of drama like Carver did this year. I liked Dean's words to Sam in the season finale and Sam's words to Dean. I take it you probably didn't, but I got hooked on this show b/c of the brotherly relationship. I watch for their bond and the "broments." That does not mean I don't want them to have friends or girlfriends; the Sam/Dean relationship is just the one that is most important to my enjoyment of the show.

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  131. "YMMV but I had no problem w/the brothers relationship and how they interacted in S6 or S7. I thought they were much more like co-workers than brothers in S7, but they were in a fine place, IMO. I didn't see anything unhealthy about their relationship or their interactions."


    Just because you liked them doesn't mean that there aren't significant problems or that there weren't in seasons 6 and 7.

    "I think it's good that they care about each other and would do anything to help each other. I don't have a problem w/that. I never did."


    I do, when helping each other comes at a cost that's going to only wind up causing them (usually Dean) more damage in the future. That's the whole freaking problem. In season 6, it was all about getting Sam's soul back and Dean, yet again, being put in the position of having to hold Sam's hand for the majority of the season and act as his Jiminy Cricket. In season 7, it was about, yet again, holding his hand to help him through the hell trauma stuff. How much did Sam actually even DO for Dean in those two seasons? Care to enumerate, because I'm damned curious.

    "I take it you probably didn't, but I got hooked on this show b/c of the brotherly relationship. I watch for their bond and the "broments." That does not mean I don't want them to have friends or girlfriends; the Sam/Dean relationship is just the one that is most important to my enjoyment of the show."



    I don't mind the 'brotherly relationship' but I'd like it a hell of a lot better if every goddamn season's plot didn't boil down to: 'Sam's in trouble, Dean gets no story because he's too busy helping Sam and cleaning up his messes, even though he's having shit tons of serious personal issues too' every damn season. Because that's what it comes down to - it's always 'fix Sam and nevermind Dean's problems, we didn't have any more time this season'. And I'm getting tired of it. It's not a 'brotherly relationship' if they're not BOTH taking care of each other and supporting each other - y'know, like people in 'brotherly relationships' tend to do. That's kinda why brotherly relationships are important, because it implies a give and take and periods of one going through a tough time while the other helps them through it -- not, one is always going through a tough time and the other brother is always having to help him out. It's tired. It's done. Plain and simple.


    Sam hit the nail right on the head when he told Dean that the sins he confessed to were all the times he failed him -- but that's just the snowflake on the very tip of the dysfunction iceberg. Now that he recognizes the problem, he has to make a concerted effort to FIX THAT and be there for Dean for a change rather than just falling back into his old patterns.

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  132. "And, in Dean's case, being around your #1 trigger 24/7 (ie. Sam) is clearly NOT helping him."


    So you're hoping for a Supernatural where Sam and Dean only see each other every other weekend and on some holidays? That could be how the show ends, but I can't see them making a show revolving around a pair of demon-hunting brothers that goes this way.


    I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on what we want out of the show, but thank you for the discussion.

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  133. "So you're hoping for a Supernatural where Sam and Dean only see each other every other weekend and on some holidays? That could be how the show ends, but I can't see them making a show revolving around a pair of demon-hunting brothers that goes this way."


    No, but nice try thoroughly misrepresenting my comments.


    My point is - Dean can't get better unless Sam HELPS HIM. Sam has had nothing *but* Dean's help since the first season. I think it's high time that Sam starts picking up the 8+ years worth of slack and give back to his brother, for a change, rather than doing nothing but take and take and take, and then walk out (or threaten to) when Dean tries to draw a line for himself.

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  134. Everyone writes from their own bias--it's kind of the point of an opinion piece. You're showing a strong bias yourself. The author of this article writes from her bias as well--and that's fine -- several of her points are well taken; From what I've seen many people in fandom are biased which isn't bad in itself but the wanky Sam vs Dean vs Cas vs Destiel vs bro, OMG. Obviously we won't agree with everyone but there is nothing wrong with writing from a Sam bias or Dean or Destiel or well, you get the idea. :) Why condemn something for having a different opinion?

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  135. I'm a Destiel shipper, but I was a Dean girl first -- and I agree with this. It's not about ships. It's about wanting to see Dean whole and healthy at long last.

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  136. Now that was really interesting insight about Sam and Dean this season. Thanks.

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  137. Amazing article; it's obvious you put a lot of thought and effort into this which is so very appreciated I'm sure by many, many Dean fans. Myself included; I so agree that Dean is more than a big brother or the instrument that John fashioned him to be, and I hope in S9 the writers see fit to give him back his clarity and agency. They seem to think we can't have "that" Dean and a Dean that supports others yet they would be wrong. In fact I think letting Dean's other strengths rise to the surface--strengths we all know he has that have nothing to do with cooking--would actually just make him more awesome. Dean is an amazing character played by an amazing actor and I love that you decided to address this. Thank you!

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  138. "Why condemn something for having a different opinion?"

    I think you'd be better off directing this question at the person who started this thread by saying "Uh yet another dean poor dean story."

    Sam's story ALWAYS gets priority in wider mainstream media. The second anyone ever dares to bring up Dean or his obvious lack of story (or follow-through on stories the writers introduce), they get bitched out for it.

    Well, sorry - but the writers don't treat the characters equally and for this to be a show 'about two brothers' as so many people are so disgustingly fond of saying, they should be treated equally and each get their time in the spotlight. Dean never has, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with calling it out for the bullshit that it is.

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  139. I, for one, enjoyed Season 8 and was happy to see some badass Dean again. Dean has been so emotional the past few seasons and it was nice to see some old style Dean. Personally, I do not think Dean needs a specific myth arc storyline. Dean has been a major focus since Day 1. On the other hand, I do feel we need way more of Sam's POV and more emotional moments from him. I loved the scene in the church where he told Dean what he confessed. That was a beautiful moment between the brothers.

    They could still become less co-dependent but I don't think we will see that. Dean will always put Sam first. That is his protective big brother nature and I just love seeing that. Sam does love his big brother and would do anything for him. Sam was extremely upset of the thought that he was letting Dean down again. I still do not believe that Sam did not search for Dean when he disappeared. I think there is way more to that story.

    They both have emotional issues that need resolved and I would like to see them do that together. I just hope to see the writers stay focused on the brothers together and not apart. The second half of S8 was great! Looking forward to S9 hopefully seeing the Samulet and more brotherly hugs!

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  140. I literally quoted your comment, though...

    Anyway, I think Sam WAS trying to help him this year. He basically held in all his insecurities and feelings of inadequacy and failure until the very last moment of the season, in an outburst during a near suicidal moment. And he gave Dean the "you have friends and family to live for" speech in 8x14, and for whole of the trials kept trying to hide his weakness and then to stop Dean from playing caretaker to him once Dean knew. None of it stopped Dean. Because that's such a deeply rooted part of who he is, who they BOTH are, and now I'm cycling back to my original comment.

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  141. I disagree about the blue collar roots being a veneer. Kripke specifically and actively made it so. I think he discusses it in the DVD commentaries. It is supposed to feel like a grass roots American road story.
    Yes it was stronger in the forst 3 seasons (seasons I think are the best) but there was never an active attempt to not be blue collar. If the MOL violates this bedrock, then the writers are failing in writing it well. Maybe because they are so far removed from the grass roots feel themselves.
    One example of this failure is the lack of classic rock and fewer scenes of the Impala on the road. It may seem like veneer to some, but it is evocative of the past and loneliness and home, and set the tone of SPN. And I think tone is a huge thing, even if it's hard to pin down. If MOL is changing the tone, then they should change the way they view it themselves. "Brain" vs "Brawn" is offensive and moronic.

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  142. Purgatory turned out to be CAS'S story, not Dean's and it was dropped after a few episodes. It had no lasting importance or affect on Dean and it also turned out to be pointless.
    I agree that the Amelia story sucked, but it was still put front and center and got the most flashbacks. And it has been shown that Sam is more connected to the MOLs ,finding the info that they have on various subjects when needed and doing the research. Them both being in the bunker doesn't mean they are equally tied to MOLs.
    Of course Dean was with Sam as he did the trials. Where else was he going to be while his brother was going through this? But it was Sam who was able to kill the hellhound, Sam that did the trials, Sam dealing with the physical effects that almost killed him, and also having the POV with wanting a normal life and his emotional confession to Dean.
    I'm still trying to understand exactly how Dean's only purpose being looking after Sam and reacting to things going on with Cas is this great story arc that some fans seems to think it is..

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  143. Hmm, I have never seem Dean as brainwashed, I think he took his responsibility very seriously and perhaps that scare in Something Wicked made it more pronounced. And there is going to be carry over into adulthood even in less intense relationships--older brother/younger brother dynamics even parent/child dynamics. But now Dean is a grown man; I don't see him as someone who doesn't make his own choices anymore. He has walked away from Sam with the intention of staying away a few times but the job has pulled them back together--pilot, free to be you and me, exile on main st. He certainly doesn't coddle him--telling him off, punching him out on occasion.

    Sure he is damaged, so is Sam. So is pretty much everyone on the show. I'm puzzled though about one statement: Why would Dean walk away from Sam if Sam needs him--how would that be growth? Is that supposed to be payback for Sam's sins? Except for the way OOC behavior from Carver's Sam in not looking for Dean, Sam has been shown to also be protective of Dean--racing to save his life or rescue him many times, supporting his relationship with Lisa, with Cas, worrying about his drinking and depression, listening to him when he does spill his feelings--hell and dad.

    I think Dean is an awesome character and I hope that Carver does something awesome with him. Yes, he supported Sam in the last part of this season and I certainly wouldn't expect less from him when Sam was falling apart and needed him so badly. That's the story Carver wanted to tell this year. Next season, maybe Dean will fall apart and Sam will need to be the support role--I would definitely watch that. :)

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  144. From what I could see in season 7 neither Sam or Dean had much of a story. Sam was supposed to deal with his Lucifer hallucinations but they gave that story to Cas. And I guess I just didn't see where Dean being drunk and morose all season was much of a story arc.
    I don't want SPN to suddenly be all about Dean either. It just looks blatant to me that Sam gets most of the important stories while Dean is there to back him up. Why can't they be equal?
    And now Cas is going to be a regular. Dean hasn't had a romance in such a long time, but I'll bet that'll be one of the first things they give Cas.

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  145. You should become a writer on the show. Seriously. Maybe you could take over the spot Ben Edlund just vacated! ;)

    This is an amazing article. So insightful. I agree with every single point you made.

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  146. I think I know what you are trying to say. "Giving Dean a story" better not end up just being "Dean supports Cas instead of Sam story". It's been a long time since Sam & Cas had to rally to support Dean as the center of some story. And Sam & Cas can bond over it, and Jensen can spend extra time with his little girl, as whatever mystery unfolds.

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  147. Sorry but proof through ratings isn't a good borometer for SPN, because I've seen the other viewpoint supported by contrary ratings evidence as well, and Arrow as a lead in was huge.

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  148. That was my question. I guess I won't get an answer. That's OK. It was hypothetical. Notice I said that every fan of every kind has a right to an opinion, I wasn't excluding you or the author of this piece. I don't know why that is an objectionable statement. I defend Carina's right and veronika's right and everyone's.
    You know everybody thinks their favorite character gets the fuzzy end of the lollypop and that their opinion always gets the "sit down and shut up." Such is the nature of fandom.

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  149. I love all of this, for BOTH Sam and Dean's characters.

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  150. Both Sam and Dean's PTSD/Mental Health should be addressed. They need to work through this together.

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  151. I have never thought of Sam treating Dean as a trophy.

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  152. We saw most of Sam's dealing with Lucifer. The story Cas had was being offcamera and horrific jokes about mental illness and a "story" where if you are shamed enough, then you can get over mental illness. If Sam missed out on that, he was lucky.

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  153. Very, very well stated. I loved everything you wrote. You are so right about Dean having a storyline this season and just because he did not do the trials did not mean he didn't. My favorite version is kickass protective big brother Dean. He will never stop loving or protecting Sam. He says it in the finale. We definitely need to see more of what goes on in Sam's head. That confession to Dean in the church was heartbreaking. Give me more of that.

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  154. I don't see how Purgatory was about Cas.

    - We saw Dean looking for Cas, and becoming close to Benny. We saw nothing of Cas until Dean found him.

    - Every scene of Cas was from Dean's POV.

    - We saw Dean openly emotional with Cas, allowing new material for Jensen Ackles. Cas reacted to this in a tiny handful of scenes.

    - We saw Dean grieving for Cas and dealing with guilt and shame.

    - Cas came back when it was time to help Dean see that he hadn't failed Cas, he hadn't left him behind.

    Cas' time in Purgatory was left offcamera, as was his rescue. He also received no character growth - he was still depressed and waiting to die. Dean found a new friend, reconnected with an old one, had great action scenes, had wonderful emotional scenes, had a story arc that we at least got to see for a few months (and emotional material with Benny that returned for one last episode). Cas had none of this.

    "And it has been shown that Sam is more connected to the MOLs ,finding the info that they have on various subjects when needed and doing the research."



    We see a few instances where Sam looks in a book and says "dragon penis" for comedy. The main moments of discovery, like the old movie in Clip Show, tend to be with both brothers.

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  155. It would be great to see the writers showing us Sam with others as well.

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  156. I didn't get that at all from the comment at all. A valid point is definitely made.

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  157. I think Sam and Dean have definitely changed over 8 seasons. As the comment points out they are not real people. There are other TV shows where characters are much, much worse than Sam and Dean and those shows also send horrible messages to young people.

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  158. Who cares if it got the most FBs when it was the most boring, disliked story of the season? At least Dean got to interact w/an interesting character in Benny and was given an interesting background story. Again, I'm not saying the writers developed Purgatory to its full potential, but it was an interesting story unlike Sam's arc. I also wouldn't call Purgatory Castiel's story but YMMV.
    I was never invested in SAM and only Sam doing the trials. It could have been Dean. It could have been them both. I honestly didn't care and still don't care. The trials were pointless. This entire season was a pointless exercise. The only character whose story moved forward was Castiel's.
    I never said Dean's story arc was "great." I simply said he was present and involved in some way - maybe not the way you liked or wanted - in all the episodes. That's it.

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  159. I think Charlie cares about Sam, she's just a little close to Dean.

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  160. Sorry, but 'they're not real people' and 'there are other TV shows that have characters who are even worse than Dean and Sam' are absolutely NOT acceptable or logical justifications to allow Dean and Sam to continue their unhealthy and dysfunctional behavior.


    To put it simply and bluntly: saying shit like that is a cop-out and an excuse to try to justify things staying exactly as they are. And these characters and their story and the FANS deserve better than the telegraphed indifferent shrug of 'they're not real and there are worse characters out there, so why should we do anything about it?'.


    You're basically saying that you want the writers to be LAZY and STAY lazy and, sorry, but that's **not good enough for me**. Not after devoting 8 years of my life to this show and this story.

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  161. 'Dean had loads of storyline', I'm sorry but where did you see that? Purgatory was about Cas, not Dean even though we(and Jensen) believed it would be his story, and then it was quickly dropped. It had absolutely NO impact on anything. Benny was brought in solely to create conflict between the brothers, and when he served his purpose they got rid of him.
    Of course Carina sees nothing wrong here. She's HAPPY that Sam gets everything because he is admittedly her favorite. Let's flip it around; if Dean got ALL the main storylines, ALL the meaningful romances, and we were constantly told how smart and special DEAN was, and the only thing Sam was ever good for was playing his supporting character and existing only for him, do you really think Carina would STILL be so happy?
    As for POV, Sam DID get that as well in spades this season. I loved that scene between the boys in the finale but it didn't change the fact that Dean was shoved to the sidelines yet again.
    And also the fact that Carver talked endlessly all season about' Sam's journey, Sam
    s redemption, how being involved in the MOLs affected Sam, etc, meanwhile, he actively REFUSED to even mention Dean's name, even when specifically asked about DEAN..
    And for some of us to complain about the blatant favoritism for Sam is not to indicate that we don't love him also, we're just tired of the writers and showrunners showing such strong bias for him when the show is supposed to have TWO leads. They should BOTH be able to have equal acting showcases and important stories, as well as both having POV.

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  162. Charlie doesn't care about Sam, and that's fine. There's no reason Sam and Dean have to have the same friends or feel the same way about people.
    The writers just need to take some time building Sam's own relationships w/recurring guest stars instead of piggybacking off Dean's. "Oh, Dean loves this person, well so does Sam even though Sam never even speaks to this person."
    It's annoying and extremely lazy!

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  163. Well, I thought we were having a nice conversation but I guess that's out of the question. Happy posting to you!

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  164. There was nothing objectionable about your statement. Don't worry . . . she just bit my head off too for daring to enjoy S6 and the brother relationship b/c if one person thinks it's wrong, then so must everyone!
    Come on! Everyone has an opinion and their own likes/dislikes. What some hate, others love. That is the way of the world.

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  165. Just get rid of whoever wrote Taxi Driver....

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  166. Another great article, am enjoying reading your thoughts on the show and characters.

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  167. It's fan service when it doesn't add anything to the plot. Dean was with his brother trying to cure Crowley but had to leave only to have a chat with Castiel, nothing else. He didn't help him in any way while he could have helped Sam.


    Anyway, agree to disagree. I see the Cas and Dean relationship as fan service and you don't. Fair enough.

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  168. I said from the start that the Sam of season 8 was OFF, there was something wrong and that is why he did not look for Dean. He was just not Sam.

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  169. Basically, what I was saying was it is a TV show. Speaking for myself, I love the boys the way they have been over 8 seasons and I think they have watched them change and grow in some aspects. I don't consider the writers to be lazy. Certainly every episode is not the best written and I know for sure I could never do their job. Their are many fans that are extremely happy with what they are watching.


    Yes, I will say there are worse shows and characters out in the TV world and it is not a cop-out. People watch and enjoy what they like and if they don't enjoy that show any more then they stop watching. Sounds pretty simple to me.

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  170. The only truth is that Supernatural can go on without Castiel as it has gone on without Bobby and other important characters but it CAN'T carry on without either Sam or Dean.


    I don't know which ratings have you seen but they increase when the episode is a brothers one or one with Charlie. When the episode is promoted as Castiel centric, they stay the same or go down.


    Sure Sera Gamble didn't know what to do with Castiel. Nobody knows what to do with him because he should have been gone a long time ago. I really hope next season he has an actual storyline independent of the Winchesters.

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  171. Exactly. I agree about Sam and Cas supporting Dean. They could bond in the process. Cas is supposed to be Sam friend too but the writers only seem to focus on his relationship with Dean. I think Cas and Sam have a lot of things in common and that friendship should be explored more.

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  172. Yes, Sam so many times is like a little kid that threatens to take his bat and ball and leave and it is getting tiresome. I wanted Dean to tell him "Don't let the door hit you on the way out", but did not happen and Dean backs down to accommodate Sam's feelings....again.

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  173. Dean has resolved many of his issues by going to Purgatory, the mythical Purgatory is a place to be cleansed, so Dean came back from that place with his priorities in order, not as self-loathing, with hunting as his main goal, Sam's dream has always been to have a 'normal' life, and he pressed that on Dean. In past seasons,

    Dean may have been 'chosen; by heaven, but he never asked for that, and in the end, defied his destiny, so he doesn't have a 'need' for a mytharc to give him purpose, the great thing about SPN is the humanity of the characters of Sam and Dean - they are us, they confront and defeat monsters (and gods) without any spectacular superpowers, and with the strength of family and allies.

    Dean had plenty to do in season eight, and being the glue that holds everything together is not a bad place to be, in fact, it's quite refreshing for a young male hero character, Dean is not only brother/caretaker to Sam, but Kevin, Charlie, and Castiel. In many ways, it's sexist to promote the idea that only the killing machine that is Dean Winchester is the element that needs to be brought to the fore.

    Dean is a fictional character, his story is developed by many writers over the course of eight years, it's not always consistent and needs to conform to the story, so physiological analysis is beside the point, Dean and Sam being codependant IS the show. We watch for the brothers interaction and devotion to each other, as long as their conflicts and eventual reunions make narrative sense, and don't go over ground that's already been tread, that's good for me.

    The last thing we need to see is Dean Winchester becoming a villain, talk about trashing a character that many people have come to view as an alter ego!

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  174. I agree with you, that we don't need unnecessary, or let's say, unfounded tension between the brothers, yes we know that Dean was disappointed that Sam didn't look for him, but the concept that Sam was unhappy that Dean apparantly did fine without him - (Benny and Cas) didn't come up until the season ender. My fave Sam and Dean dialogue this year was Sam saying to Dean 'I see the light at the end of the tunnel, and I'll take you there' that was so true to Sam's character, and exactly what Dean (and the audience) need to hear, and great to have a season ender without one of the bros dying.

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  175. I would love to see more interaction with Sam and Castiel, there's lots of ground to uncover there, much as I would have liked to see some interaction between Sam and Benny. Maybe we could see more in season nine with Sam and Kevin.

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  176. Maybe now that Cas is human, the characters will interact more. I know I would like to see it, but Jared the actor has always said that he is glad Sam and Cas don't have a deeper bond.

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  177. I agree. It doesn't bother me that Dean cares about Sam and will help him if he's ill or something. That's how I expect Dean to behave. Sam would do the same for Dean as evidenced by his behavior in all seasons except the first half of S8 where he was written uncharacteristically. I don't understand why that is a problem. I understand wanting a mytharc for Dean or showing that he's more than a caretaker, but I don't see why Dean couldn't get a mytharc AND still care about Sam. The two aren't mutually exclusive in my mind.

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  178. I agree, Dean did have a lot going on in season 8 and it's not lesser or demeaning that he's the glue holding the team together. What is a problem is that Purgatory was handled in a cursory way. I liked that they took the "purifying" angle with it, and that we saw Dean more expressive and more of the Dean that often lies buried beneath layers of armor and denial, that was good to see. So it's not that I feel he was shoved aside or his emotional development wasn't important. What is a problem is how many gaps there are in the Purgatory story. How did Dean get from the terrified moment when he's alone at the end of S7 to the dirty fighter we saw at the start of S8; and once out of Purgatory, we got one moment of an overt PTSD incident, but the show very quickly moved on. While I think it's believable how Purgatory changed Dean, his issues are not "resolved" at all. I see a lot of comments from fans who say how great it is to see Dean being his old, season 1-like self--he's not remotely like his season 1 self IMO. Also Dean was never what people say he was, that was the veneer, the self-created image and armor he put on for others. I don't want Dean's issues brushed off just so he can be the snarky badass. The whole point of his season 8 emotional arc was that veneer got removed, that's what was interesting to me.


    While I think some of Dean's issues were touched on in the latter half of the season, I feel like it wasn't given the focus it needs or deserves, after so many seasons of damage, and his issues have gone pretty much non-addressed, and he is kept away from a direct role into the plot that is specific to him. Not that Dean isn't essential, not that Dean has nothing to do, or that what they did wasn't important to his character development, but Dean is still locked in a way that is limiting.


    Psychological analysis isn't beside the point. We react emotionally to stories, we care about the characters, and it matters whether things are consistent, whether the character development is believable. Yes, exactly, so long as it doesn't go over ground already tread--but that's what keeps happening and it's alienating and it's bad for all the characters, and the show itself, not just Dean.


    Yes, I like how Dean overturns some of the ideas about the macho male hero...why are you equating wanting him to have a bit more specific plot role with wanting him to be nothing but a hunter/killer? That's the opposite of what fans have been asking for--we want MORE aspects of Dean, more of the different sides of his character, not less. Wanting him to have a more active plot role doesn't mean losing all those other aspects. You're accusing people of trashing the character...what about all the fans who keep saying "Dean is happy like this, this is who Dean is, Dean should be about Sam and if he's not then he's OOC and the show is terrible"?


    It's also not necessary to ditch the codependence entirely in order for the characters and relationships to grow, so saying but that "is the show" as a reason why there shouldn't be variation and growth in Dean's main role doesn't make sense to me.

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  179. And you don't know that he's 'fine with it' These are his bosses. They already couldn't care less about his character and and push him to the sidelines as it is. Even he dares to complain, they'd probably relegate him to the bunker and have Misha step up alongside Jared. Which is probably what they have planned anyway.

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  180. No one ever suggested Dean should stop caring about Sam. You can actually love/care about someone without that being what defines your personality/life!

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  181. I don't think anyone wants Dean to become a villain. I think the point or rather the question is; why can't Dean be supportive, make a mean souffle and have a joint role in whatever the mytharc is for that season? People wanting him to be supportive AND *whatever* doesn't translate to villain in any shape or form, really.


    Also Sam and Dean's conflicts stopped making narrative sense a while ago but the easiest example is the beginning of S8 with Sam not looking for Dean. That didn't make any sense, no one liked it & it was quite obvious just for drama/angst sake. Not to mention Sam's attitude towards Benny was also obviously for drama/to create tension where there did not have to be any.


    From the writers themselves they say they create contrived instances of drama because they like it when the brothers fight. Wash, rinse, repeat and totally unnecessary.

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  182. Ah. If you don’t have a good defense, then just go for sweeping dismissal . Good to know.

    No I just have a different opinion than you. It seems hard for you to accept that someone might just see things differently from you. That's too bad. I gave plenty of examples to support my opinion and you just mock. How is that a discussion again? You can see Dean however you'd like; and I will too. No need to insult people.

    I'm not going to wobbify Dean or Sam. Yes, they had a crappy childhood but at some point, you take responsibility for how your life is now. I expect from Sam and I expect it from Dean. They are not kids with no choices available to them; they are grown ass men. Dean is choosing hunting because it makes him happy at this point in his life. He is choosing to stay with Sam because having his family around him makes him happy. This was stated in Dean's own words. Sam also made a choice about how his life was going to be when he left Amelia.

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  183. So much this. I very much want Dean to have a story of his own apart from Sam or Cas's problems x 1000. But I don't understand how being a caretaker for his brother and other people in trouble diminishes him as a character. I think he is the strongest character on the show right now in many ways. Sam and Cas and Kevin are a mess. I don't want him to always be in the caretaker role by any means, but it is a defining attribute of his character and I admire it.

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  184. So, no then. Got it. Moving on.

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  185. Black In Black Trickster '95June 3, 2013 at 2:55 PM

    A lot of interesting points.
    Personally, I don't think Dean was ever on the sidelines. I see a bigger picture for next season with Dean because he didn't get into Cas role, but somehow the writers' will involve Dean, for example; help finding Metraton. Assuming the fallen angels want to ruin the earth (most anyway?) Dean obviously plays a big role alongside Sam, his storyline dosen't look to be problematic.
    I think his mental health is relatively stable. Purgotory is not hell, so I don't see why he would be having severe side-effects as he did with hell. I'm sure his childhood would be detrimental to his mental health, but looking through the seasons up till now he seems like he recovered in many areas, and the season finale gave us more insight. At the end of the day both brothers' inner demons are not being extreme or whatever and Dean is still excellent..he still going to rock on :)
    .

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  186. I'm sorry but I have to lol that people gave you a thumbs down for

    "Come on! Everyone has an opinion and their own likes/dislikes. What some hate, others love. That is the way of the world."

    People disagree with that? Fandom, gotta love it. :)

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  187. We will have to agree to disagree because I just don't see a statement like "I even killed Benny for you" as an indication that Dean values his other relationships. To me that was an unequivocal statement that no matter how badly Sam treats him, Dean will sacrifice anyone and anything for Sam. That lets Sam off the hook to continue manipulating Dean with threats of abandonment as he has done all season. There is nothing beautiful or uplifting in that message and it makes both characters look pathetic and unheroic in my opinion.

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  188. You seem to have trouble grasping the concept that poorly-executed storylines are still storylines. Carver and Singer both insisted that the MOL storyline was all about Sam and getting him back into hunting. Samelia was all about Sam and giving us his POV exclusively. The trials were all about Sam and his massively levels of entitlement and manpain. Those are three complete storylines that happened on screen, whether anyone liked them or not.

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  189. I always find it so interesting that people who insist that Cas has no place on the show, seem to think that if he were Sam's friend instead of Dean's, then he would have a legitimate place on the show. It seems to me that a certain subset of fans will not be satisfied until Dean Winchesters is completely excised from the show as well the main storylines.

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  190. I would argue that Sam has been at the center of the mytharc for 8 out of 8 seasons. Even the two seasons where Dean was also tied to the mytharc, Sam had his own unique tied to the mytharc that was separate and equal to Dean's.

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  191. The problem is that Dean being a caretaker is a characteristic and not a storyline. I love that side of him too, but when he is defined by only that one trait and is not given any importance to the plot beyond taking care of the characters who get to make the big hero plays, then that does diminish the character.

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  192. You say that, yet you're agreeing with an article by a biased rabid Dean/Cas shipper that only wants what she's saying so "Dean/Cas" can be come canon. Hypocrisy anyone?

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  193. Well I was actually talking about Dean's place in fandom and how the discussion around generally revolves around whether he should be Sam's manservant or Cas'. There is no real plot purpose to the character so it always comes back to his relationships.


    But now that you mention it, I do think the way Sam threw tantrums this season about Dean's relationships with others, while still carrying on about wanting to leave hunting, also suggests he sees Dean as a trophy. Or perhaps his own personal toy. He doesn't want to really play with Dean, but he doesn't want anyone else to play with him either.

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  194. No. Charlie told Dean that he ruined Sam's chance at a normal life in one episode. Then in the next episode she told Sam how strong and awesome he was. She drooled over the "broments" and she told Dean how lucky he was to have Sam. Funny how no one ever tells Sam how lucky he is to have Dean.

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  195. So Dean doesn't need a storyline but Sam needs more POV on top of what he already gets plus all his storylines. Yes, you're certainly not biased in favor of Sammynatural at all.

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  196. I don't think there's anything beautiful or uplifting in it either, but I think Dean was just telling the truth. He couldn't believe Sam thought Dean was somehow trying to replace him with other people, after what Dean had done for Sam. In that situation I think Dean just didn't want Sam to kill himself.

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  197. I think it's sexist for the traditionally female role of caretaker to be forced to sit on the sidelines while everyone else gets to play hero and save the world.

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