Happy Monday, everyone, and welcome to the first in a series of columns I'm calling Shippable Shows. We'll be looking at shows past and present, one by one, and seeing what it is about them that make them such fodder for shipping, what the major and minor ships are, and some of the best shippy moments. Of course I had to start with the show that has practically owned shipping for the eight years it's been on the air, and the one that brings most readers to this column -- Supernatural.
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| Stop looking at Dean and kill the monster, Sam. |
What makes it shippable?
Bros Forever: The theme of the show is family, and it takes family to its most extreme in showing us a pair of brothers whose love for each other has literally stopped the apocalypse and changed the world. Not to mention an angel who rebelled against heaven for the sake of a human. Supernatural is all about the intensity of male-male relationships, about brothers in arms and how they're wiling to die and sell their own souls, literally and figuratively, for each other. This is the sort of bond that shippers seize on, and say, well, if they're willing to do all this for each other, what's to say that their relationship stops where society says it should? Why would a physical or romantic relationship be out of bounds, when soul-selling, killing and dying are all on the table in multiple instances? Shipping in Supernatural is about pushing those bonds to another level, and about sublimating the need and companionship into a different form.
Spoken and Unspoken Moments: The deep (some might say "profound") bond between the characters is evidenced in both words and actions, in characters saying "I need you" and "There's nothing I wouldn't do for you," in prolonged eye contact and intimate (if not explicit) touching. There's a lot of holding each other up, hands on shoulders, watching each other sleep, etc. These can all be read straightforwardly as actions of brothers and friends helping each other, but they can also be read as implicitly romantic. How they are interpreted is up to the viewer, and both readings can be considered valid. True, the show protests its shippability, but with no greater frequency than it provides moments that can be read as shippable -- and there is such a thing, as Hamlet once noted, as protesting too much. Supernatural can definitely be accused of that. Which leaves it to the fan to decide which moments carry more emotional weight and resonance -- the prolonged eye contact and "I did it, all of it, for you" lines, or the throwaway protestations.
Fandom Rivalry:: Supernatural both benefits and suffers for having two major ships that are in rivalry with one another. Ship wars aren't pretty, as we've previously discussed here, but they do have the benefit of making people very protective of their preferred pairing, and that rivalry keeps the feelings about that ship fresh and intense. That keeps people glued to each episode, eager for subtext to support their pairing, and it keeps meta -- the lifeblood of shipping -- flowing. There's never any dearth of in-depth analysis on the most recent episode or season and how it can be read as supportive of one ship or another. And the show provides fodder for both, often knowingly, which leads me to:
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| "What's a slash fan?" Well, Dean, it depends on who you ask. |
Ship Awareness: The writers and producers of Supernatural know very well that there's a huge following of shippers -- and unlike other shows, there's direct evidence of that in the show, in the form of Sam and Dean coming across a community of "slash fans" in the episode "The Monster at the End of This Book." A fangirl who writes steamy fanfiction is actually a character on the show, so there's no doubt that the show's staff knows the extent to which shipping can go. And they play to it, in endless in-jokes and winks to the fan base, all intended in good fun. Where the knowledge may be lacking in the writers' room, however, is in understanding the depth of shipping as well as its extremes -- its ego as well as its id. Slash shipping isn't all about sex or about enjoying good-looking men, and how it's represented onscreen has importance beyond simple fan service. Unfortunately, it's hard to find a show today that truly understands that. If I had the ear of a writer of a show -- any show, not just Supernatural -- and they wanted to know how to understand shipping and slash, I would point them not to the fan fiction but to the meta, to the analyses that lay out point by point why certain pairings are not just plausible but powerful and effective ways to move the story forward. And no show needs to know this right now more than Supernatural does, if only to stop them from taking joking half-measures and expecting the fan base to be satisfied with that.
The major pairings:
As I mentioned above, there are two major pairings in this show and they come into direct conflict with each other. As a multishipper, I'm a fan of both, so don't expect me to take a side as I describe them.
Dean and Sam (Wincest): Yes, it has to be mentioned -- the first major pairing in this show is an incestuous one. The two brothers, Dean and Sam, have a sibling relationship like none other. They've died for each other, killed for each other, gone to Heaven and Hell and Purgatory multiple times for and with each other -- there's basically no rule they won't break for each other's sake, no taboo they won't trample in their desire to take care of each other. So Wincest (named after their last name, Winchester, + incest) pushes that truism toward yet another taboo and posits that the bond between the two is so strong, there would be no reason why a physical or romantic relationship would be off limits, when so many other things clearly are well within the bounds of "I'd do anything for my brother." Incestuous pairings, especially sibling pairings, are nothing new in the world of shipping, but this one has visibility like few others, and it's been expressly called out on the show itself, which gives it a special status.
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| Supernatural: where personal-space issues actually get addressed. |
Dean and Castiel (Destiel): Castiel the angel first appeared in Season 4 as the angel that raised Dean from hell and comes to him with the message that God has work for him. But over the course of Season 4, Dean's unflinching morality and humanity changes Castiel, and at the end of the season the angel rebels against heaven, against the angels he refers to repeatedly as "brothers," and takes the humans' side in the apocalypse to come. In a show that cares about family as much as this one does, finding a reason to rebel against one's brother is a Big Deal, and Castiel's continuing sympathy and fealty to humanity -- and, most notably, to Dean -- is a strong sign of a bond that is intense and strong. Destiel fans see a romance with Castiel as a chance for the terminally unselfish Dean to mature and start taking care of himself and wanting things for himself, and Dean as a chance for Castiel to find a home and family that he can more easily justify being a part of. This pairing is significant because it could potentially (although not likely) happen in canon, and there has been a big push from the fandom to see it happen. Whether it remains subtext or becomes text, Destiel has struck a chord in the fandom so deep that it's come to rival Wincest in terms of both number and volume of supporters.
The minor pairings:
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| "Nice EMF there, Sam." |
Sam and Gabriel: Gabriel was an angel who died just as he was being given half a chance. First known as the Trickster, a demigod, Gabriel was revealed as the archangel he was in Season 5, and was cut down by Lucifer just as we were starting to genuinely like and root for him. Pairing him with various other characters (most notably, Sam) is a way to get him back into the mix, and to this day, three seasons later, fans are still hoping for one last trick to be revealed and for Gabriel to return.
Dean and Jo: Brought in as a wannabe hunter in Season 2, Jo was first disliked by the fandom but quickly gained her own following. She was killed in Season , but not before she really showed her chops, and hers was a hero's death. Many saw her as a good match for Dean in terms of temperament and lust for life, and she was brought back briefly as a ghost in Season 7 to have one last moment with Dean.
Sam and Lucifer: Lucifer was masterfully played by Mark Pellegrino -- first as the genuine article, and then as a hallucination in Sam's head in Season 7. In both incarnations, he seemed to genuinely like and want Sam, and promised to reward him for allowing Lucifer to take over his body as was foretold by the prophets. It's an easy path to follow from Lucifer wanting Sam's body to Lucifer wanting Sam's body, and many shippers had no trouble going from Point A to Point B.
Meg and Castiel: They shared a kiss on screen and the last time we saw Meg she made a rather racy suggestion that Castiel seemed to appreciate.This angel/demon pairing has both fans and detractors in the fandom, but one thing can be said about it: it surely inspires strong feelings.
Castiel and Balthazar: Balthazar was introduced in Season 6 as an old ally and friend of Castiel's, as though the two were as different as could be. Much of the shipping of these two (and also of Lucifer and Michael) focused on imagining the angelic backstory of which we got far too little on the show itself. What was it like before the fall of Lucifer? How did the angels survive in the ensuing wars, and what sort of bonds did they form in their own foxholes, doing their own version of the constant battle we see Sam and Dean face on earth in every episode?
Gabriel and Crowley: One an angel, the other a demon, but both rebellious against authority, both sarcastic and intensely amusing onscreen. Though they never met in canon, that doesn't stop shippers from theorizing about how intensely entertaining they'd be together.
Like I said, there are many, many more, and I'm sure I've overlooked someone's favorite. These are the ones that leap to mind. Feel free to call out some of your favorites in comments.
What makes Supernatural a shippable show for you? What pairings do you enjoy reading and writing? Sound off in comments. Please remember this is a shipping-safe zone -- you don't have to ship to comment, but you do need to be respectful of shippers. Thank you for being considerate.
Next week I'll be out of town, but the week after that I'll be doing Shippable Shows: Teen Wolf. Don't forget to be sure that your favorite show is represented in this series. Thanks!
I dunno. I've never been a huge fan of the shipping. I love the intense BROTHERLY bond Sam and Dean have. And I adore the sometimes majorly akward FRIENDSHIP they have with Castiel, but I'm not reading anymore into it. Sure there's some intentional tention between the characters, but that's just mostly for the sake of comedy.
ReplyDeleteAleksander,
ReplyDeleteThis column is about "shipping," which is the practice of reading potential romantic relation*ships* between characters in a TV shows. Those who "ship" Dean and Castiel see them as compatible in a romantic context and want to see them get together in the show. Some "ships" are supported by canon (e.g. Sam/Jess, Castiel/Meg) more than others, which are either implied or discouraged, but that doesn't stop shippers -- people who ship -- from seeing the potential in their pairings and enjoying the interpretation of them through analysis and fanworks.
Some shows seem to encourage or inspire shipping more than other, and that's what I mean by a shippable show -- a show where there are a number of "ships" enjoyed by the fan base.
Hope that explains it!
Sad when a brotherly bond is automatically something sexual.
ReplyDeleteIt's not automatic; it's something some people enjoy interpreting that way. Nobody is saying you have to think of it in those terms. There's absolutely nothing wrong with seeing it as a brotherly bond. I don't consider that "sad" at all.
ReplyDeletePlease respect shippers in these comments, even if you disagree with their interpretations.
I have nothing against shippers but its just something I do not personally understand. I guess I get the appeal but when I watch a show, I do not watch it for romantic relationships, I watch it for the story and the characters.
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting to read though how others in the fandom see the shows that I love in a different way.
Right from the start, when (I assume) everybody involved was unaware of slash fandom and shipping, Supernatural was a courageous show in that it committed to these intense emotional attachments between characters. Those attachments were constantly revisited, tested, explored, confirmed, remade. The basis for the show, it was said from the start and has been revisited over and over on screen, is love and family. That makes it the most shippable show on the air. It's also damn well made, scary and thrilling to watch.
ReplyDeleteI'd respect shippers if it weren't incestual which is disgusting, degrading and illegal. Just sayin'.
ReplyDeleteSupernatural is very similar to Wiseguy. It's all about strong men who are vulnerable and emotional under the machismo. It's a show where the men who run the show have little idea how to write for women. It's a show where one of the key characters (Dean Winchester/Vinnie Terranova) is extremely ambiguous, which leads to a plethora of slash pairings, the one you most prefer depending on your view of chemistry, what physically attracts you, and how you feel about the characters and how they treat each other. Vinnie had Sonny (a deeply troubled, unstable, big-hearted mobster who shook Vinnie's idea of right and wrong and permanently haunted his psyche) Frank (mentor and antagonist turned into superclose, grumpy friends), Roger (Roger sarcastic and bleak, Vinnie earnest and pure in spite of everything; Vinnie reformed and redeemed Roger and Roger would do anything for him).
ReplyDeleteDean has Sam, Cas, and Benny. Of course some fans ship more than one (or none at all), but generally I'd say they are very different relationships with very different appeals.
I have very few ships on TV shows. I don't watch TV for relationship drama and I think it's often lazy, empty and needlessly divides fans. Dean and Cas is one of my very few. I actually think the writing more than supports a relationship between them, and the chemistry between Jensen and Misha is some of the strongest I've ever seen on TV (and this is not Showtime or HBO so there would not be anything shown anyway, for people worried about that). Unfortunately I don't see this happening, even if the show loves to bait and have cutesy little moments like the two of them seeing two men fall in love. Moments like that make me roll my eyes when some fans act like it's verboten to wonder what the show's intentions are.
I would have very happily supported Sam/Jess or Sam/Sarah if the show had ever written. The one I could not have any interest in was apparently the one that was supposed to be true love forever (Sam/Amelia).
SPN is one of the only fandoms I read stories for. Some of them are much better-written than the relationships in the show.
ReplyDeleteI didn't disrespect anyone. It's some's opinion that 'Wincest' is fun and cool. It's my opinion that it's sad and disgusting.
ReplyDeleteIf you meet Jensen, don't mention Destiel. If bothers him, but Misha is okay with it.
ReplyDeleteI have written both regular fan fiction about Sam and Dean. When I write, I write slash and it's always AU, not the actors. I actually have a following on a couple of sites. it's fun and it helps me survive hellatus
ReplyDeleteWhen Dean found Cas, what I saw was someone that had very mixed emotions about a good friend that had let him down and he was not sure how to handle it. Did not see a heartbroken lover. I don't think I have ever loved a show as much as I do SPN that so many different fans can see different things in a scene. That is what makes this show so much fun. I watch a scene, then read comments and sometimes I do see it in a different light. ;)
ReplyDeleteThis is a neat article and I really appreciate what you're doing here with your column! Thank for trying to broaden awareness of shipping in a respectable manner.
ReplyDeleteTwo points of this article really stood out to me:
1. "How they are interpreted is up to the viewer, and both readings can be considered valid." - Yes! It is my opinion that there is no wrong way to watch a show. I may not personally ship Wincest, though I do love the brothers relationship, but who am I to tell someone that they are wrong for liking and shipping Wincest. More power to them, I say.
2. "Slash shipping isn't all about sex or about enjoying good-looking men..." - Thank you! As a huge Destiel fan myself, I see so often the question posed of "why do you want them to be gay" or the argument used that "you just want to see two good-looking men together, just go watch gay porn". For myself, and for many others, I think I can safely say it isn't about them being gay or about wanting to see hot guys getting it on. It's about a love story. It's about chemistry. It's about connection. I personally would be happy if the most we ever saw from Dean and Cas is just words confirming their relationship as a couple. Sure a small physical touch here and there would be nice too, holding hands perhaps, or even a small kiss, but hot gay sex is actually really at the bottom of the list of things that are important to me for that relationship.
Look, I'm not even a Wincest shipper and I find it insulting that you are on a shipper site that is supposed to be a safe place for shippers, telling them how wrong they are. Maybe you should use the site, as it was intended, as a place for open-minded and non-judgmental discussion.
ReplyDeleteDo I think they deliberately played it as heartbroken lover? No. Jensen changed from the script (the script said he was supposed to have a "WTF" reaction), but I'm sure he wasn't playing it as a lover. But the show still included a huge romantic trope by having Dean find amnesiac Cas with a wife. That's the classic soap opera trope for amnesia stories. That's why when people say fans are deluding themselves, I point to the show for their choices.
ReplyDeleteI forgot to say I'm glad you pointed out how the show teases fans of a ship even if they may say otherwise (they seem to have moved away from the teases that involve someone jokingly saying, "He was your boyfriend first," and into more serious baiting/teasing), and that the show should read some of the meta instead of just thinking it's about porn.
ReplyDeleteI didn't know Crowley and Gabriel were a popular pairing. I've known some Crowley/Cas fans.
I'm not on a Shipper's site, I'm on the Supernatural Spoiler board. I read this thread because silly me I didn't know what the hell a Shipper was. I still wish I didn't.
ReplyDeleteWell I have to agree, Bec. Like you, I had no idea what shipping is and so I read this and now I wish I hadn't. Hey, to each his/her own but honestly I just don't understand the entire concept. Has our society really reached a point where it's necessary to render a brother/brother relationship, a friendship between members of the same sex or a platonic friendship between members of the opposite sex into a sexual one in order for it to have validity? Are the former relationships really that lacking in credibility as they are? Personally, what drew me in to Supernatural the first minute I watched it and has kept me hooked for 8 seasons now is the way the show celebrates humanity and, more specifically, the notion of family, something that is sadly lacking in Hollywood these days. I find the very idea of having to translate that into something sexual distasteful. But that's just my opinion.
ReplyDeleteBravo, perfectly said.
ReplyDeleteI want to comment on the ridiculousness of having to make a romantic connection between Dean and Cas but it's so bizarre that I can't even go there.
ReplyDeleteInstead, I feel the need to focus on your contention that Dean is an "ambiguous" character. I don't even want to know exactly what you meant by that as the word can have many connotations, especially in the context of this discussion. But I have to say that, imo, there couldn't possibly be a LESS ambiguous character, in any sense of the word, than Dean Winchester. He has always been represented as a distinctly macho man, from "no chick flick moments' in season one, through the watching porn with other guys comments. Sure, he hasn't been able to have a healthy romantic relationship with a woman, but that stems from the reality of a hunter's life, especially the life he and Sam have lived as they continually find themselves at they of the storm, supernaturally speaking. That has ZERO to do with any ambiguousness on his part. I don't know how more clearly the writer's could've painted his character. Not their fault if people only see what they want to see.
And, as woman (not a teen or tween, who are the primary CW audience but a middle aged woman not given to flights of fancy), I think the writers do an outstanding job of writing both characters for women. All the proof you need is in the SPN fan base, which I would wager you will find is predominantly female. If they weren't writing for us, they've done a damn good job of drawing us in accidently!
I totally agree. Point in case when Sam explained slash and Dean's outrage "That is just sick.. They do know we are brothers, right?"
ReplyDeleteExactly! The writers couldn't possibly make their actual intention any clearer. Dean is a prototypical guy...period.
ReplyDeleteWhen did he say that? Was it at a con? Not that I don't believe he'd say that, I'm just curious where it was said.
ReplyDeleteI know I'll get downvoted, too, but yeah.
ReplyDeleteAnd the Wincesters I know went crazy. Threatened death on the writer of that episode and Kripke for making fun of them. Note: THE ONES *I* KNOW, not anyone here.
ReplyDeleteI think you will find that shippers and non-shippers agree that Supernatural celebrates humanity and family in a wonderful way. All shipping is, is imagining possibilities. They're not possibilities you have to like or agree with. I welcome differences here, and I thank you very much for your opinion.
ReplyDeletePart of the reason that shipping holds a fascination for some people is that it deliberately turns those "macho man" stereotypes on their heads. It's quite simply fun for shippers to imagine that the unambiguously macho man may be defying his stereotype. I think Dean can be read either way, and I don't see anything wrong with reading him as a heterosexual, macho guy. It's just fun for me, personally, to imagine otherwise.
ReplyDeleteSpoilerTV has given me license to do a column on shipping culture, and that's what I'm doing. It's perfectly okay for you to not participate in it if it doesn't hold any appeal for you. Thanks for coming by.
ReplyDeleteWhen I talk about ambiguous writing I mostly mean some of his relationship with Castiel and some of his interactions with men. Not Wincest. Even some of the writers have said that the text is there for fans to interpret Dean how they want.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't say Dean has ever been written as a macho man. That's what he thought he was supposed to be, because of his father, but not anything he's ever truly felt about himself. He used to feel like he was a failure because he could never be as much of the stereotypical man as his father expected him to be. He's shed this more and more over the years, and he's been most clear in that this season. It's one of the reasons why you see some fans freaking out about Dean cooking or Dean cleaning (even though he only ever cleaned his room, not exactly an uncommon thing). It's because Dean is challenging the norms for what a man is supposed to be if you kick butt, if you're a great shot, etc.
ReplyDeleteThat isn't about his sexual orientation, but if we talk about his sexual orientation, then no, I don't think the show has made it explicitly clear in recent seasons. This started with all the jokes other characters made about Dean and Cas. Those are obvious jokes, yes (and I'm glad we're done with them, to be honest with you), but when Dean has two relationships where other characters repeatedly mention homosexual relationships, and one of those relationships cannot be dismissed with, "They're brothers, that's not happening," then the writing takes on more ambiguity, because when you do this about a dozen times, that means you are admitting many fans see your character as having romantic feelings for another man, and you're doing nothing to stop that.
There's been less and less interest from Dean toward women, beyond his porn, and while we can assume this is because of depression, or the job, the show doesn't bother to give a reason. How many leading men do you know on a show like this who go an entire season without being with a woman (the closest being Ellie, whom he turned down with little to no regret)?
Then you have the bar scene with Aaron, where Dean pointedly didn't identify as straight, and flustered the man flirting with him because he didn't really have the expected reaction. This scene was so confusing for some fans that a website even ran an article asking if the show was taking Dean's relationships with men "too far." Jensen clarified the scene at a fan convention a few weeks ago, but up to that point, many people had absolutely no idea what the show was doing or where they were going with the idea.
You have romantic cliches, one after the other, thrown at Dean and Castiel - the story that the show basically described as "cheating" (Cas working with Crowley; I think Dean and Cas in that season were called a "long distance marriage" by one of the writers), the amnesia, the depression, separation in Purgatory. You have Dean suffering actually inventing false memories because the pain of Cas leaving him was THAT heavy.
When you have scenes like this, then yes, I do think the character is written ambiguously. Do I think Dean is straight? Yes. Jensen says he's straight, and Jensen is playing the character, so I'm going to go with what he says. Do I think the show plays up Dean's relationships and character in a way that deliberately invites speculation and ambiguity? Yes, I do. And that has rapidly increased as the years have passed.
Each of us has fantasies and dreams, so to each his own, but for me the brothers love each other as BROTHERS; that bond made so intense by their upbringing and by the fact that Dean probably played mother to Sam physically and mentally too, and therefore it's perfectly normal for Dean to act instinctively as a mother would to protect her child, reaching out to it or pulling it up when it falls or is hurt, and comforting it.
ReplyDeleteThere has NEVER been anything between the brothers which has made me think of a sexual relationship and there never will, thank goodness!
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As for relationships between the other male characters, just no!
Supernatural is a show about two heroic brothers fighting evil, not a clone of some cheap soap.
Anything else is for fan fiction.
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A word on the Castiel Dean story.
We have now been told in the penultimate ep that the 'easily-manipulated' angel did NOT REBEL because of Dean but because he came off the angel assembly-line FLAWED, with the 'gene' of rebellion already wired in to him, so Dean had nothing to do with it.
So I would say this new information puts an end to the fantasy of a 'relationship' between these two characters.
Castiel would have rebelled eventually anyway, whether he had met Dean or not.
Then looking back to when Castiel got out of the Leviathan lake, the first thing he did was to marry the woman who helped him, so even the angel's actions themselves negate the idea of a relationship with a male.
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As I said, everyone has a their fantasies, but both Sam and Dean have shown themselves to be guys who love girls, and have also declared it many times, but then there are always those who see nothing else but what they want to.
The key wasn't Cas rebelling, it was Cas rebelling enough to break programming. He'd never really done that before Dean. He actually broke programming twice in season 4 because of Dean, and the last time he turned against all the angels. Dean had a great deal to do with it. Naomi herself, in a previous episode, was so worried about Dean's influence on Cas that she had Cas kill him hundreds or thousands of times.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention that not everyone wants Dean and Cas to be a couple because Cas rebelled for Dean. I never had any interest in the idea of Cas having no inner voice or thoughts before he met Dean. I'm happy to learn that he had instincts and Dean just solidified those. That makes them more of equals. That's good.
As for Daphne - Cas had amnesia and Daphne was a caretaker, one he forgot as soon as he turned back to Cas.
If I were going to point out an example of Cas being interested in women, I'd go with Meg, not someone he had little affection toward and only spent time with when he had zero idea who he was.
Yeah, sorry, but with all due respect I think you're being a little presumptuous by assuming what the writers were intending in their work. You yourself said that Jensen has confirmed Dean is hetero and that's how he has always played him. I think if the writers had another intention they would have at least communicated that fact to Jensen himself. SPN has always been a show where the actors are allowed quite a bit of input into their characters, so I don't think the writers would've intentionally left him in the dark...especially if he was going against what they intended.
ReplyDeleteThe bottom line is that the character has been played the way the character is written. Any "ambiguities" seen anywhere are simply reachings of the imagination by viewers who apparently have a problem simply accepting the characters as written. That's your problem, not the writers. As a professional writer myself, I have no problem with sparking people's imaginations...that's what good writing is supposed to do...but I have a MAJOR problem with people taking characters created one way and moving them off into a completely different direction simply because they see them that way.
I guess I don't like dealing with the ambiguous...I prefer to deal with the concrete. And as I said before, what has been concrete about Dean from day one is that he is a GUY...the type who would have a man cave if he were living a normal life. And as with many, if not most guys, he's had trouble coming to terms with the "feminine" side of himself, or what our society deems feminine, though I personally have no problem with a guy expressing his emotions and don't think it takes away from his macho persona at all. He had the "no chick flick" ideal cast on him from the time he was little and over the last few years he's come to soften on that...he's realized it's ok to express himself. I don't see that as "ambiguity", I see it as Dean allowing himself to grow and mature. And not only is seeing that part of his character growth as showing "obvious" homosexual tendencies insulting to the writers but it just furthers the stereotype that has become accepted in our society that "real men don't cry". Guess what...you can be a guy, cry and not be gay! Dean Winchester is living (well fictionally living anyway) proof of that!
As for not having a relationship, cut me a break! Have you not noticed the kind of life Sam and Dean have been living? It's not exactly amenable to settling down and having a normal relationship. Both guys have tried and both have failed miserably. It's just not possible. In recent seasons, as the supernatural stuff they've been facing has been ratcheted up a few notches, that's only become more apparent. And after the whole "monster love child" episode, Dean's kind of had a wake up call about the dangers of sleeping around so he pulled back on it some for that reason too. Again...you want to read some deep seated homosexual meaning into that, that's your choice...but it doesn't make it the writer's intent, no matter how much you may think it is. And just to be clear...I have absolutely no problem with homosexuality or the depiction of it on screen, what I have a problem with is people making assumptions when no such thing has ever been stated.
Bottom line...imagination is great, completely reworking another person's creation is not and I think some of these "shipping" fans tend to go a little overboard with it.
Let's not forget that Jimmy...Cas' vessel...was a married man and father. So he started out as a heterosexual man. I don't know how much angels or demons actually tap into the emotions of their vessels but if they do at all, then Cas already had that built in wall to begin with.
ReplyDeleteAt any rate, the relationship between Dean and Cas has CLEARLY been represented as a big brother/little brother one, much like Sam and Dean's. And Cas' actions in choosing an alliance with Crowley against Dean's advice and now being cast down to Earth without his grace, have mirrored Sam's closely. Throughout the show, the focus has always been on Sam and Dean's relationship and as Sam has grown and matured, that relationship has changed and Dean has had a lot of trouble dealing with that fact. So they kept throwing other potential "Sam substitutes" at him to fill in that gap he's been feeling when he lost his "caretaker" role for Sam. The relationship with Cas is the most substantial of these, but in NO WAY is it anything romantic and by working so hard to cast it in that light, I think you actually do it a disservice as it is even more powerful as written, but that's just my opinion.
Bravo...couldn't agree more!
ReplyDeleteMisha tends to laugh things off, so it would be hard to tell if he was actually uncomfortable with it. As for Jensen...I can see where it would bother him too and in light of that, then perhaps the fans ought to try and respect his feelings.
ReplyDelete"The scenes of Dean in the kitchen or cleaning his room, etc., are also not indicators of homosexuality."
ReplyDeleteI agree. That's why I said "That [the cooking or cleaning] isn't about his sexual orientation."
" Again...you want to read some deep seated homosexual meaning into that, that's your choice"
That's the point. The show has left it up to viewers. There's no real reason to do that. They could have easily given the reasons you gave.
The problem is that this is a show that has joked for years about Dean's sexual relationships with other men, one of them not being his brother, which takes away the idea that this will never happen because of incest. Those are jokes, sure, but they also go along with an idea that Dean might not be straight, because if some fans didn't feel that way, why keep bringing it up over and over? And once you cater to that assumption, then when you enter a character into a period of time where they no longer seem to have interest in women beyond porn, and actually turns down an attractive woman with little to no regret, then you're inviting those viewers to wonder what is going on.
If a viewer just started watching the show this season, and knew nothing of Dean's history, would they end up thinking he was in love with Cas?
I'm sure Dean's still straight, but the show, to me, kind of wants it both ways.
"Yeah, sorry, but with all due respect I think you're being a little
presumptuous by assuming what the writers were intending in their work."
Based on comments from Ben Edlund and Adam Glass, among others, I think they are more than happy for people to see what they want to see.
I don't think it's ever been quite the same as Sam and Dean. I actually think that does a disservice to Sam and Dean's relationship. Beyond the obvious (someone in Dean's life makes a mistake and Dean has to forgive them), they're very different paths. Even Dean himself stopped saying the "You're a brother" line years ago, and has told Sam that he has no idea why he has such a hard time dealing with what Cas does.
ReplyDeleteThe last few seasons in particular have gone more and more away from the brother path and more toward cliches of romance novels (amnesia with a new spouse, separated via a portal, etc.), of course, without the romance.
Do I think they will make this a romantic relationship on the show? No. I do think they have writing which tries to exploit melodramatic situations that have gone far beyond brother drama.
"That's the point. The show has left it up to viewers. There's no real reason to do that. They could have easily given the reasons you gave."
ReplyDeleteUh no, the show has not left it up to the viewers. That's my whole point. The show has made it patently clear that Dean is hetero but some fans insist on spinning things their way. They didn't have to give reasons, they wrote the character the way thy wrote him...WITHOUT ambiguity. Just because you're reading other stuff into it doesn't make them wrong.
Just because they made a few gay jokes does not mean they are saying "wink, wink, nudge, nudge, Dean's gay". Again that's the assumption made by some fans...doesn't make it right.
They bring it up because the premise of the show is two guys living on the road together, so it naturally opens the door for those kind of jokes thanks to society's insecurities. It makes sense that the writers would play into that perception. It doesn't mean the writers actually wrote the characters as gay, no matter how much you'd like to think otherwise.
And again, you are reading WAY too much into Dean's "lack of interest in women". Does fighting the apocalypse, having Leviathans making dopplegangersof them and causing them to drop off the radar, Sam having Lucifer inside him, etc., mean anything to you? They've kind of been a little occupied. Dean dropping everything to get some would look kind of out of place given the overall story arc. Doesn't mean there's any big, deep dark secret to it.
As for the writers' remarks...admittedly I haven't seen anything from any of them directly responding to this kind of thing but as I said...sparking the imagination is one thing, completely rewriting the characters is another.
Very different paths? Sam was trying to first save Dean from his Hell contract, then stop the Apocalypse and he chose to make an alliance with a demon, doing the wrong thing for the right reason, and betraying Dean in the process. Then after trying to correct his mistake, he came back from Hell without a soul and had to live a broken existence.
ReplyDeleteCas was trying to stop his fellow angels from starting another Apocalypse and so chose to make an alliance with a demon, doing the wrong thing for the right reason and betraying Dean in the process. Then after trying to correct his mistake, he has now been cast out of Heaven without his grace...the angelic equivalent of a soul..and has to live a broken existence.
They couldn't be more similar if the writers drew step by step directions for you.
I said they offered up "Sam substitutes", I never said any of them were actually capable of replacing Sam, as nobody could be. Dean himself, as evidenced in his actions this season and his speech to Sam in the finale, has come to that realization. So no, I don't think I'm doing disservice to their relationship. But like it or not, the similarities with Cas are still there...and the relationship has never been posited as anything other than "brotherly" or "familial" except in the minds of some fans.
With all due respect, I really think you're reaching with the romance novel stuff. REALLY reaching.
It's been eight seasons of gay references and jokes from Dean. At some point, if the show didn't realize what some viewers were reading into this, they would have stopped. Instead they keep finding new ways to do these types of scenes. For instance, in the Garth episode this season, when Garth asked if he was in "the" Purgatory, Dean jokingly replied no, it was the bar in Miami. The bar in Miami named Purgatory was a gay bar.
ReplyDeleteSam is the subject of Wincest jokes. Yet these have become few and far between over the seasons (I think they had one or two this season). They have Sam involved with women even when he has other things on his plate. Sam generally doesn't have reaction scenes to gay men, he's generally not hit on by other men, etc.
Dean generally hasn't been involved with women in a season and a half. He seemed to have little interest in getting back on the horse, so to speak, when he got out of Purgatory, unlike his return from Hell. Dean makes references to gay culture. Dean is hit on by other men. Dean sees other men finding love and we see him react to this.
None of this means Dean is bisexual or gay. I assume Dean is straight unless the show says otherwise. I assume the scenes with gay men are someone's idea of humor, because Dean is supposed to be macho (even though I think Dean is comfortable enough with himself at this part of his life to not do double takes at gay men - apparently the writing doesn't agree with me). I assume, as you do, that he simply does not have interest in women because of everything that's been going on in his life. I assume he and Cas are simply closely bonded friends.
However, there are a number fans who don't feel this way, and who feel like Dean is bisexual. And I think the show's writing encourages people to feel that Dean is ambiguous and can be what they want him to be. I think that the show at some point along the road realized that this character's reach among fandom transcended the initial view of him as just the lady-loving stud, and they play into that to try to please all sides.
Great blog post! Especially I like your thoughts on why these pairings appeal to fans. Shipping definitely isn't automatically and always and only about porn or "you just think they're hawt"--it's about character dynamics, emotional dynamics, even the way the characters are filmed, all that sparks fans' imaginations. Of course the attractiveness of the actors and their chemistry is a factor. Meanwhile there are so many reasons to ship and sometimes there are greater or lesser hints or suggestiveness within canon, greater or lesser possibility a ship could maybe become canon but regardless, fans are responding to something, a spark. Sometimes I start shipping something because of a single small gesture in one scene and boom. I've actually spent a lot more time as a genfan, but shipping gives me yet another way to examine the characters.
ReplyDeleteMy list of SPN ships is so long it'd be like Crowley unrolling one of his long deal scrolls, and I ship slash and het and femslash, although Dean/Castiel is by far my favorite and one of my favorite ships I've ever shipped--it has a particular pull, and the chemistry of the actors and the way these two are filmed and the actual canon beats of the relationship all have made it harder and harder for me to dismiss my own speculations, well why NOT canon, why couldn't it. It's not just Dean/Cas as a slash ship, it's their whole unexpected friendship and the way it's developed, their character dynamics on screen as well as the possibilities, and what they mean to each other.
Also while I've never shipped Sam/Dean I've always seen why people ship it so much and the subtext the show does with the brothers adds another interesting layer. It even seems plausible, given their unusual background and isolation, that something could've been going on along those lines at one point or another. I get emotional over the brothers even though I don't ship it and wonder is there such as term as genship, what do you call it when you prefer not to introduce a sexual element but flail over the duo in a way that resembles shipping? Anyway that groundwork is a big factor in what leads to romantic aspect shipping, although it's not necessary, because as I said, all kinds of things can spark it, and to me it's valid for fans to want to explore it. For me the combination of canon close relationship + a certain type of chemistry is probably the most potent combination, though.
"So I would say this new information puts an end to the fantasy of a 'relationship' between these two characters."
ReplyDeleteActually, it doesn't. Castiel voices his doubts to Dean early on. Dean saw a kindred spirit, someone who was maybe a little like himself despite their obvious differences. Many Dean/Castiel fans already felt that rather than Castiel rebelling just for Dean's sake, that it was Dean who showed Castiel a doorway, showed him why thinking for yourself and choosing free will was the right thing to do, why humanity deserved to be saved. So the reveal that Castiel always was a bit different, always had rebellious leanings, was an overt verification of the nature of Castiel. It didn't negate anything about Dean and Cas. It doesn't change anything about what Dean and Cas have been together for the past five season, or the chemistry between the actors, the way the characters look at each other, the types of scenes and stories they've had that are suggestive of a romantic pairing, or the strength of the canon bond.
I'm not sure if the soulless Sam and fallen Cas stories will take the same path (for one thing the show had no real idea what soulless Sam was even supposed to be, as far as I could tell, or, half the time, if being soulless was even a bad thing), but I do see some of the similarities you pointed out. I just don't think the other details are handled the same way.
ReplyDeleteThe scene of Dean finding amnesiac Cas with a wife has been in books, TV, movies, soaps - I used to see this on soaps I watched. Believe me, I don't even really see this as something I'd want for a couple (fanon or canon) I enjoy. This was also the script that the actors changed around because they claimed it was too romantic.
The portal scene was just redone recently by one of the main couples on Once Upon a Time.
Betrayal and deals are pretty much par for the course on this show, but the handling tends to differ. When Sam betrayed Dean, this ended in a fistfight and Sam nearly choking Dean to death. When Cas betrayed Dean, this ended in lines like "I was there. Where were you?" and endless angst-ridden stares across the holy fire. Sam and Dean's conflict over Ruby and the demon blood ended with agreeing to get over everything and work together. Dean and Cas' conflict ended with Cas releasing the souls in an attempt at atonement, dying, and Dean falling into a depression for much of season 7.
That's not even getting into Dean tearing across Purgatory for a year to find Cas, Dean actually inventing false memories because he could not accept Cas willingly staying behind in Purgatory, Naomi telling Dean that she knew Dean was waiting for Cas to "return to [him]," etc.
Everything on the show blurs together, because the main stories always focus on what Sam or Cas did to Dean, but I feel like the relationships are written very differently at this point. I don't think this is done because they are setting up a romantic relationship, but I think the show still likes to dip into that well of cliches, for dramatic and emotional purposes.
Said it right, laugh it off is better than getting worked up or not talking about it. I do agree fans should be respectful which most are :)
ReplyDeleteDid it ever occur to you that simply because Dean was painted as the stereo-typical lady-loving, "no chick flick" type of guy, it naturally comes off as funnier when he is confronted with gay stereotypes or made the butt of gay jokes? That's why he's continually at the root of them and not Sam. Sam has always been more in touch with his "feminine" side, so to speak, so despite his size and obvious macho air, it's not as overtly funny with him. If anything, the writers are going for the joke, not making direct or even inadvertent references to Dean being gay.
ReplyDeleteThe "Purgatory" reference may be as you say but I know I had no clue about any gay bar by that name, so it wasn't quite as obvious to the entire fan base as you think.
And it's not like Sam has been running around jumping into bed with women. Yes, he did while he was soulless but as we know that was a side effect of his soulless state...and perhaps it served as an eye opener to his brother that the casual approach he'd been taking toward women wasn't necessarily the best way to go? Plus, let's not forget everything that happened with Dean and Lisa, which was never fully addressed. He simply wiped himself out of their memories and went on his merry way, but his memory of that wasn't wiped clear and it had to have hurt, a lot. Again, perhaps that's factoring in to his toning down on the whole ladykiller approach.
Again, I think you're reading WAY too much into all of that. Dean was still a kid and sowing his wild oats when the show started. He's now a grown man who has been through a lot, matured, and is taking a different approach to life. Doesn't have to mean he's discovered his inner homosexual. It's called growing up, and it's perfectly natural. Sam and Dean have each grown up in their own way over 8 seasons. No need to read anything more into that.
And again, I think you're making too much out of that "well of clichés". In fact, those romance novel/soap opera clichés are only relevant if they are part of your personal experience. I've never been a fan of either and so those scenarios hold no such extra meaning for me and I've never seen them that way as expressed on SPN. So obviously that thought process is not applicable to the entire fan base.
ReplyDeleteAs for the details being different, well of course they are...for the very simply reason that Sam and Cas are two entirely different beings. Dean's reaction to Sam's betrayal was the reaction of one sibling to another. If you have siblings, you'd know that they can sometimes get under your skin and as much as you love them you might find yourself reduced to lashing out at them in order to get through to them. It's part of being human...a very important factor in this particular show. And yes, they eventually agreed to work through things because they are family and that's what family does. As much as you may not like each other, you still love each other and you stick together.
Cas, on the other hand, is a whole other story for a couple of very concrete reasons...a., he's not a blood relation of Dean and b. he's not human. As an angel, Dean knows getting into a fistfight with him isn't going to accomplish anything but getting himself beaten to a pulp (he's been beaten up by Cas once, so he knows how that feels), so naturally he's not going to go there. Plus, as an angel Cas doesn't have the same perception of reality that humans do. He doesn't understand about emotions and family bonds and all of those extra layers that we humans carry around, so his reaction isn't the same. And as close as Dean may have felt to him, deep down he's still a supernatural entity so that barrier between them still exists and makes things awkward. Add in the fact that Dean had already been betrayed by a brother once and being taken down that road by another being that he'd treated as a brother just deepened the wound. For me, Dean was taking a "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me" approach to Cas' betrayal. It was just more than he could handle and for all of the above reasons was on a level where a simple, physical reaction wasn't going to do any good.
Finding Cas in Purgatory was a simple equation. Cas is a friend and, despite screwing up as badly as he had, someone Dean had come to think of as family, so Dean being Dean he wasn't about to just ditch Purgatory and leave Cas behind. Naturally, he'd look for him. He'd have done the same with just about anyone who had wound up sucked into Purgatory with him...Sam, Kevin, hell maybe even Meg at that point. It was simply the right thing to do and Dean has always been about doing the right thing.
And no, he couldn't accept Cas willingly staying behind in Purgatory because it would mean accepting someone else in his life that he cared about making the ultimate sacrifice, a sacrifice that he directly benefitted from. Remember, he's still, all these years later, carrying around the guilt of Dad giving up his soul for him and he had to stand by and watch Sam sacrifice himself to stop the Apocalypse. It just hurt too much to go down that road again. Again, perfectly understandable given the circumstance and not pointing to any romantic connection.
Your right that it remains to be seen where Cas' journey without his grace will eventually lead but I still say that his arc and Sam's have been very similar and any differences in Dean's approach to them stem from the differences in the two characters themselves and the difference in Dean as he has matured as a character himself.
I just wanted to jump in and say I'm really enjoying this conversation. The analysis on both sides is really well thought out and convincing, and this is the kind of deep and reasoned conversation I think we should be having, rather than
ReplyDeleteBut I wanted to mention one thing about "No need to read anything more into that." One is a bit of historical context. For a very long time, GLBTQA folks did not have any narratives in popular media that spoke to or representing them. So their only chance at feeling represented in the media was to read into TV shows, movies, etc., a potential relationship that looked like their relationships. This has been done for so long that it's not likely to stop anytime soon. It has become a way of watching TV, a way of interacting with the text, and it's clearly not what everyone sees, but for people who practice it, it holds a lot of meaning. Representation on TV is getting better, but it's still flawed, and so people will continue to see what they want to see in their heroes -- whether it's a big brother or a friend or a lover -- and do their best to identify with them.
And outside of that context, there may not be a need to read more into something, but for some of us, it's just plain fun to do.
Hope you don't mind my $.02 in a fascinating discussion.
"The "Purgatory" reference may be as you say but I know I had no clue about any gay bar by that name, so it wasn't quite as obvious to the entire fan base as you think."
ReplyDeleteThat's my point though. They included this reference presumably knowing that many fans would not get it. They included this reference presumably knowing that the fans who would get it were people who think Dean is bi. That's why I can't say that the show never intends to be ambiguous.
I'm sure that part of the reason for the jokes is because Dean is supposed to be more stereotypically straight, but when you have this in a season where Dean hasn't been with any women, has actually been much less stereotypical than he was in earlier years, and has such close emotional bonds with men, then people are more apt to wonder what is going on.
I think the reasons you gave for Dean not being with women are valid, and that's generally why I tell myself he hasn't been with any this season. But as long as the show doesn't give a concrete reason, people are more likely to read their own view into his reasons.
When you have a leading man on a show who has no female love interests for a season, turns down an attractive woman, is mistaken for gay and doesn't bother to say he's straight, has melodramatic connections with other men, then you're going to get speculation. Sure, people are probably reading into it, but Supernatural has never been a show with rigid views on fan interpretation. They play along. I don't believe the show will ever have a bisexual Dean, not in canon, and I'm sure he will have a love interest next season, but I just have to respectfully disagree that this is all fan fantasy. The show, to me, wants it both ways.
" I've never been a fan of either and so those scenarios hold no such extra meaning for me and I've never seen them that way as expressed on SPN. So obviously that thought process is not applicable to the entire fan base."
ReplyDeleteDefinitely not, but when you have Jensen and Misha saying they changed some of the wording because they felt the episode had a scene that was too romantic (the trenchcoat scene), then I do wonder what the writer of that episode was intending.
"As an angel, Dean knows getting into a fistfight with him isn't going to accomplish anything but getting himself beaten to a pulp (he's been beaten up by Cas once, so he knows how that feels), so naturally he's not going to go there."
He didn't want to go there with Sam either, as Sam threw the first punch, but my point wasn't so much Dean's reaction as the narrative choice. You just had a variety of angst-ridden staring contests and forcing themselves to look away with tears in their eyes. Sam and Dean have those too, but that really jumped out for me at the time because the show had spent so much of seasons 5 and 6 downgrading Dean's friendship with Cas. Then you had this huge melodramatic episode that was all about the idea of Cas thinking he was protecting Dean, etc.
"Again, perfectly understandable given the circumstance and not pointing to any romantic connection."
That's true, but again it's mostly about presentation for me. False memories? Seeing visions of Cas (one of them even being similar in style to when Sam hallucinated seeing Jessica in "Bloody Mary")?
I guess we'll agree to disagree.
I appreciate you giving a friendly forum, even if only two or three of us here likely see these pairings.
ReplyDeleteI thought it meant fans write simple stories, wouldn't it been good for a message at the top of the article saying the dictionary meaning of it?. Like your comments :)
ReplyDeleteI've been writing this column for months now, and the first few months of the column were all about explaining what shipping was and why people do it. It was to my great surprise that people came to this column not knowing what it is.
ReplyDeleteI'll definitely be including a definition at the top of my next column, hopefully that will give people a taste of what's to come and if it's not something that appeals to them, they can choose to forgo reading the column. It's a great suggestion & thanks!
It's my pleasure. Thank you for your insightful comments.
ReplyDeleteBut you act as if Dean was betrayed or hurt b/c Cas was shacking up w/some woman! That didn't happen. Dean didn't care that Cas was living w/some woman. He wanted Cas to regain his memories so Cas could heal Sam. Plus, he was still ticked at Cas for dropping Sam's Wall in the first place. There was NO underlying romantic aspects to that story.
ReplyDeleteAnd are you saying Dean wouldn't have torn across Purgatory looking for Garth, Ellen, Jo, Rufus, or any one of his other friends/allies? Of course, Dean didn't want to abandon Cas to Purgatory.
And Dean's false memory of dropping Cas!?!?? The same Dean who blamed himself for JO getting into hunting, who blamed himself for SAM getting into hunting, who blames himself for everything under the sun . . . . we're supposed to see something "special" and/or "unique" about that guy feeling unnecessary guilt for Cas?!?! Come on! Guilt is Dean's MO.
Great post! I just posted something very similar.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'll say as someone who has watched a lot of soap operas, I still didn't see any amnesiac cliché. That's likely b/c I've never seen Dean and Castiel in a romantic light, so it never even occurred to me to view the scene that way. Not to mention, Dean never seem devastated that the supposed love of his life had a wife or anything. Dean was shocked to find Cas b/c he thought Cas was dead and even more shocked that he had amnesia. After that, Dean was all about getting Cas to help Sam. There was nothing romantic about their reunion or anything.
I didn't see a heartbroken lover either. I saw shock that this dead guy was alive and then more shock that he had amnesia, and then determination to get this guy to save his brother's life. That's all I saw.
ReplyDeleteAnother great post! I couldn't agree more w/every word you've written!
ReplyDelete"Dean dropping everything to get some would look kind of out of place given the overall story arc. Doesn't mean there's any big, deep dark secret to it."
ReplyDeleteNot only that but Dean is a prof'l. He couldn't have sex w/Elle at that moment in time b/c he was trying hunt a hellhound. Dean is going to do his job. That's how John raised him. He's not going to squeeze in a quickie while ON THE JOB.
And I love that some use Dean's supposed lack of interest in women as the basis of his "homosexuality," but I don't see any blatant interest in men either. Maybe Dean is asexual. Haha!
As you said, Dean has been a little pre-occupied w/the craziness of his life. That doesn't mean he's gay.
When has Sam been involved w/women when he has other things on his plate? Sam's time w/Amelia was stress-free b/c he wasn't hunting or doing anything like that. Now, that he's returned to the hunt, he hasn't had sex w/anyone.
ReplyDeleteSoulless!Sam doesn't count. That guy would have sex w/anyone.
Dean was last in a relationship w/Lisa. Since then, he's had a couple of ONS. We don't see every single day of their lives, but Dean has always run off w/WOMEN for a night or two. His two most serious relationships w/were WOMEN (Cassie and Lisa). He dreams of WOMEN. In his Djinn-induced fantasy world, he was with a WOMAN. He was enthusiastically kissing a WOMAN this year.
I'm sorry but why does knowing that there is a gay bar called Purgatory in Miami make Dean bisexual and/or gay? Could it be possible that Dean and Sam were in Miami, decided to check out a bar, and learned it was a gay bar?
ReplyDeleteI'm not getting how knowledge of this bar implies bisexuality or homosexuality.
A few clarifying points here, which may help: There was no shipping ban. The con organizers expressed their intention to continue screening questions. Also, the question was about Dean's sexuality, but it was not ship-specific; the girl who asked it posted the full text of her prepared question, and it was about how Dean sees himself. Castiel was never mentioned.
ReplyDeleteI was one of the VIPs at that con and did a column about my experience last week; go back in the Fans and Fantasy tag and you'll see it. Whether or not the question was ill-advised or offensive to the talent, I found the way fans treated other fans during and after the incident to be a very poor reflection on fandom as a whole.
I'll just say this: I think her question was definitely geared towards Destiel. I can't remember the exact wording but someone posted it on IMDb and that's how I interpreted it. I honestly think those are "no win" questions for the actors, esp. since Destiel is not an established pairing. Now, if Dean and Cas were to start kissing or something, then those questions would make. I just think it's best to leave the fantasies to fanfiction or Internet groups. The actors shouldn't have to field those types of questions, IMO.
ReplyDeleteI agree conventions probably aren't a good venue for such questions, and honestly I think they're better posed to writers instead of actors. But I disagree that a thoughtful question about an aspect of a character should be banned simply because it includes sexuality. There are plenty of embarrassing and intrusive questions asked at cons ("can I touch your butt?" happened at NJCon to Misha, and I was very sad) and for these questions to be singled out to me is inconsistent and speaks to entrenched homophobia. Not the overt type, not a hatred of gay people, but the fact that there would be no ban against asking Jensen if Dean ever wanted to be with Jo sexually. It's only because Castiel's a male that such questions are "uncomfortable," and that, to me, is a shame.
ReplyDeleteBut, I'm in agreement with you that whether or not such questions should be tolerated, they are not tolerated right now, and not much is likely to be accomplished by asking them in a con setting.
No, I think the questions aren't appropriate b/c whether people want to believe it or not, there is nothing CANON about Dean and Castiel. They have NOT declared their love for each other. They have not kissed or done anything sexual w/each other.
ReplyDeleteTo me, it would be just as inappropriate as asking Jared if Sam wanted to bang Ellen. How is Jared supposed to answer that question w/o possibly offending someone? If he said, "No, of course not," I'm sure some fans would accuse him of hating on older women or not finding the actress attractive or something silly like that. Sam never expressed in sexual/romantic interest in Ellen so such a question would be inappropriate, IMO.
I agree that such questions about subtext, etc. should be left to the writers. Jensen is put in a terrible position if he has to answer these questions. He says there's no subtext, then he's homophobic. He says there is, he's accused of pandering or playing to certain fans like Misha constantly is. I, personally, think Misha doesn't take any of it seriously but have seen others accuse him of promoting himself or pandering to fans.
I just think the shipping questions should be left alone at this point. JMO.
>> If he said, "No, of course not," I'm sure some fans would accuse him of
ReplyDeletehating on older women or not finding the actress attractive or
something silly like that.<<
I was thinking that it would be just plain nasty considering Ellen is dead. :D *SEE SMILEY FACE - JOKE, PEOPLE*
Cheers :)
ReplyDeleteHahahaaha :-)
ReplyDeleteHahahaha :-)
ReplyDelete"I'm sorry but why does knowing that there is a gay bar called Purgatory in Miami make Dean bisexual and/or gay?"
ReplyDeleteIt means that the show may want to drop little jokes for fans who think that Dean might be bi. I guess they could have just had this as a hilarious joke about Purgatory, but it's such an obscure comment and the people who got it were those who would know about the bar or care enough to look it up.
"He was enthusiastically kissing a WOMAN this year. "
ReplyDeleteShe kissed him and he barely reacted. He told her a few nice things but his face during the kiss was like stone. His reaction when they were in her room was polite and very distant. I was surprised by this because certainly when Dean enjoys kissing a beautiful woman, he isn't shy about hiding it.
"Plus, we don't see every single day of their lives, so who knows how many women Dean has slept with?
We don't hear about this. That's the difference. We usually would always hear or see about Dean's great love of women. Now, he clearly still is attracted to women, but he's really not very interested in anything beyond porn.
I guess I should say it again - I'm not arguing that Dean is gay or bisexual. What I am saying is that the writing this season has been so vague, compared to previous seasons, that, along with some comments from those who work on the show, they have fed more ambiguity and speculation about Dean's sexuality. So when people ask about this, they aren't just projecting their own fantasies onto the show. They are a part of what some people who work on the show are happy to go along with. If they don't want fans to do this then they could be more clear in the text. Instead they wink and nod.
"And are you saying Dean wouldn't have torn across Purgatory looking for Garth, Ellen, Jo, Rufus, or any one of his other friends/allies?"
ReplyDeleteNo. What I'm saying is Dean and Cas were put in this particular context that no other relationships on the show have been put in before, complete with emotional reunion scene and "I need you," and stroking Cas' face jokingly, and so on.
" we're supposed to see something "special" and/or "unique" about that guy feeling unnecessary guilt for Cas?!?!"
Dean always feels guilty. Dean rarely feels so rejected that he has to invent false memories.
This stuff is used over and over with one relationship on the show in particular, one that the show knows has a following of fans who see it as romantic.
Even the actors complained that the episode was too romantic for them.
ReplyDeleteUntil Jensen clarified what the scene with Aaron and Dean was about in the Hitler episode, a number of fans did wonder if he was attracted to Aaron. I just take it as more cute jokes and games in the writing.
ReplyDeleteI don't recall Dean stroking Cas's face or the reunion scene being overly emotional. And I pretty much hated the first 11 episodes so I doubt I'll be watching again anytime soon.
ReplyDeleteI'll just say this, as I watched, I didn't think it was romantic or anything like that.
And Dean feels guilt for the stupidest things. I wasn't at all shocked that he made up some memories for which to feel guilt. Again, I haven't rewatched the episode, but I do remember thinking, "Dang, now Dean's making up memories to feel guilty. I guess the writers really don't want to let him do anything questionable. I guess that's reserved for Sam." Those were my honest thoughts. Haha!
Again, I didn't think it was romantic at all. Romance never even crossed my mind. I thought it was a lame plot and thought it would have been infinitely more interesting if Dean had dropped Cas - even accidentally. That just would have been more interesting in my book than lame false memories!
I don't know - I took his reaction to that particular woman as his mind being on the job, which was pretty much The Thing at that point, than getting some. They were trying to save a whole family AND accomplish the first Trial. Not quite the time to be getting down. And that spoke quite a bit about Dean's maturation as a character.
ReplyDeleteIIRC, I think he assumed Dean was gay so went the route of hitting on him TO distract him from following the leads. But I really hated that episode, I was cursing a lot during it, so I might've heard it wrong.
ReplyDeleteEven if I don't agree with some - well, ALL - of the pairings listed, shipping is ultimately subjective. I mean, I can create ships between characters who've never met. Or aren't even on the same SHOW. But I've made people believe it in fan fic - Dean/Martha Jones 4 Eva!
ReplyDeleteI actually liked EHH so I had no problem watching the scene again on YT. We both were wrong. Haha!
ReplyDeleteAaron doesn't say anything specific about it. From memory, here's what was said:
Dean: "So, we didn't have a gay thing."
Aaron: "No, man."
Dean: "Well, you were really good. You had me there. You were very smooth."
Aaron: "Yeah, well smooth is all I got."
Basically, Aaron said when they saw S/D looking into the case, they started following them. I still interpret the scene the way I did before. Aaron noticed Dean noticing him so when Dean confronted him, he hit on Dean to scare Dean away, which worked. Dean did leave, and Aaron and the Golem continued to trail them I'm sure Aaron would have be equally flustered if Dean took him up on his offer. He made the offer b/c he knew Dean wasn't game.
That's how I saw it.
This does show his maturation as a character, but there were ways to play the scene as Dean having a basic desire for her, or the two of them wondering what might have been, even though they weren't going to have a thing. This didn't really happen. The whole thing surprised me at the time, and still does. I will just chalk up to unintentional writing choices, I guess.
ReplyDeleteI would actually enjoy Martha and Dean together. He'd be better for her than the Doctor ever was.
ReplyDeleteI liked that episode so I re-watched those scenes on YT.
ReplyDeleteLong story short - Aaron wanted to throw Dean off his trail so he "hit on" Dean to get Dean to go away. It worked.
See my post below to Donna C.
It's not like he shoved her away and said, "Ewww . . . . don't kiss me." He did kiss her back and had been flirting w/her IIRC earlier in the episode. But as Donna C pointed out, Dean is a prof'l. He would NEVER - not even in Season 1 - have sex w/someone in the middle of a hunt. Remember, he waited until the hunt was over in HB to have sex w/that actress so I'm not sure why you were shocked that he didn't jump Ellie's bones in this episode.
ReplyDeleteSomething a friend and I just discussed at length last night is why we are so enamored of these characters and a lot has to do with the way they are written. She admitted that for the first time in two years she's reading slash fiction again. And all because of Supernatural. I myself adore all the various pairings and their potential to develop the characters in various ways. Each pairing has it's own dynamic and I think that's part of the fun of shipping.
ReplyDeleteThe scene was strangely done - at one point, Aaron seemed to think Dean was hitting on him, and abruptly ended the conversation.
ReplyDeleteI can see why it would bother. I haven't seen the interview or wherever that is being said, but I assume Misha was playing cool.
ReplyDeleteHere's what I know from reading other people's accounts, posts, etc.
ReplyDeleteApparently at the NJ Con, there may have been a ban on shipping questions. There was a lot of speculation and talk about who banned those questions and if they were really banned, so that's not clear.
In any event, the buzz was that Jensen didn't want to answer any "shipping" or "Destiel" questions. Again, I don't know if that's true but I wouldn't blame him if he did ban those questions as they are divisive. The very first question was a "Destiel" question. The girl started off by saying she was bisexual and then she mentioned noticing all the changes and growth in Dean and how he had really come into himself, so she goes on to mention something about subtext . . . . . and that's when the booing starts. She got booed by the audience. Jensen says something like, "Really? The very first question. Don't ruin it for everybody." It was unclear if he was speaking to her, the audience. He just moved onto the next question.
There was a huge brouhaha about it. Destiel fans were apparently livid - not all - but a great many seemed very upset. One girl even blogged how Jensen was going to cause gay teens to kill themselves. He was called homophobic, rude, mean, etc. It was pretty crazy. That was a few weeks back.
I feel bad for Jensen (and Jared) b/c these are difficult questions to field in a diplomatic way. Jensen has said numerous times that the show is not about romance. He has said Castiel is like "family" and a "brother." How much clearer can he be? I think that's why Jensen announced Dean's heterosexuality at this other convention. Put an end to the question.
I have no idea if this ban even existed but I wouldn't blame the actors for instituting one. This thing has gotten to be too much. To write or fantasize about Destiel is one thing, but to harass the actors and demand they give you the answer you want is just awful, IMO. I highly doubt Jensen is playing any of the scenes w/any subtext so how is he supposed to answer that question w/o offending someone somewhere? I'm glad Jensen is not on Twitter b/c they were bashing him left and right after that incident.