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SpoilerTV - TV Spoilers

Fans & Fantasy: Fans Behaving Badly

13 May 2013

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I've been gone for a few weeks, and during one of those weekends I spent my time hob-nobbing with TV folk at the Salute to Supernatural New Jersey convention 2013. If you're up on fandom you know that this convention was not without its controversy, and to be fair, no convention is. But it's worth examining what happened and the aftermath to talk about what it means when fans behave badly, why certain behaviors are not tolerable, and where the lines ought to be drawn.

The incident: As has been widely reported, a girl came to the microphone with the intent to ask Jensen Ackles a question about the possibility that Dean's character development included his possible bisexuality. She was shut down by the stars' bodyguard, and the whole audience booed, and the stars themselves quickly moved on. Regardless, throughout the convention the derisive talk about the question continued all around me, to the point that it became overkill; and as a shipper, I felt shamed for daring, even silently, to agree that I would be curious as to how the actors would answer it. So which was the bad behavior: daring to ask the question or booing a girl for wanting to ask it? Or is the bad behavior on the part of the stars, bodyguard and convention staff for barring questions of a certain type that inadvertently reinforce stereotypes and shame that can devastate people's lives?

I wrote a post on my personal Tumblr account about the incident, and I suggested that for right now, asking such questions at cons, regardless of whether it's morally right, is inadvisable. Rather, I'd like to see us spend more time discussing the issues in forums such as these - here on SpoilerTV, on a very relevant article on hypable.com, and other places where shippers can be seen to be the thoughtful, intelligent people that the great majority of them are -- people with something to say besides "OMG SO HOT," people who have interesting and relevant interpretations of texts and who like to engage in serious conversations about the implications of some of the taboos that are out there. And, being the incredibly modest soul I am, I of course suggested that more people come to this column to check out what I had to say on the topic.

In return, I received the following message from an anonymous user:

Thanks for the pro-tip hon, I'm going to rally the brother fans and Wincest shippers to spoiler tv and overrun your little Destiel haven. Eat it sucker.

This puzzles me. First of all, I'm a huge Wincest shipper and brothers fan. (8x22 made me "awwww" really hard. Dean, showing faith in Sammy! My poor heart!) I ship Dean/Castiel too, and I prefer it slightly, but I love and read and write Wincest. So why would someone want to destroy a safe space I've attempted to create for them, just to quell the discussion of a ship they don't personally like? I've created this column for shippers, all shippers, and for non-shippers who are interested in what makes shippers tick. It's a haven for all pairings, not just Destiel. Still, we'll see in the comments below whether or not some people are willing to burn the village to save it. Which is the bad behavior - mine for mentioning this place, or theirs for threatening to overrun it?

The aftermath: After the con, a rumor sprung up, based on one person's interpretation of another person's account, that Creation Entertainment (who runs the conventions) had banned all shipping questions henceforth and had announced that to the VIPs (a group of ten people who bid in an auction for a package of special privileges, sit-downs with every guest, backstage passes, etc.). I was one of the VIPs (and it was awesome!) and immediately spoke to it, saying it may have been said to other VIPs but it was not an announcement made to the group of us. I also posted the draft of a letter to Creation stating my concerns about the way such an announcement might be worded and such a policy might be implemented.

For this I got inordinate amounts of anonymous hate, being told "Creation has every right to ban shipping questions!" Often, multiple exclamation points and exhortations to get a life were involved, among less savory elements.

Which is funny, considering my first post also contained a long explanation about why I felt like questions at cons, at least for now, weren't going to get us anywhere and should probably be avoided, for purely tactical reasons; and my letter contained no objection to the policy and in fact stated outright that it was well within their rights to do so.

So which is the bad fan behavior? Me, for stating my concerns and drafting a letter which I then requested constructive criticism on, or the fans who screamed at me for daring to do something I hadn't done?

The resolution: I was then approached by one of my fellow VIPs, who had originally stated what then got interpreted as "news" of a ban. I won't reveal the details of the conversation, but I will say I was very pleased with everything she wrote and encouraged that two people who feel completely differently about shipping were able to come together to quell the misinformation. She took the incredibly brave step of speaking out, saying that there was in fact no announcement. I reblogged, hoping that between her followers and mine, we could get the word out and de-escalate the situation.

Her post on Tumblr currently has 70 notes. The post that claims the shipping ban currently has over 2,000.

It's very hard to get sanity out there in this whipped-into-a-frenzy world, and I don't know how to change that or more effectively combat the misinformation. But in this story of fans behaving badly, I want to at least take this forum to compliment a fan for behaving extremely well. Thank you for doing the right thing.

The lesson: Whether you believe shipping is a taboo subject or not, whether you ship or not, whether you think conventions are the right place to show it or not, I hope you will agree with me here:

Booing fans, ship-shaming and anonymous hate are bullying. They are bad fan behaviors and they need to stop.

The quicker we can come to agreement on this, as a consortium of fandoms and fans, the quicker we can eradicate it. That thing that's one letter from "ship" happens. But so do ships and so do questions about ships, and so do those questions being blocked by con personnel, and so do people agreeing and disagreeing with those positions. None of them deserve booing, shaming, and hate, just for differing from how you would have handled it.

How do we start changing the landscape of fandom so this sort of thing doesn't happen? How do we create a climate where differences are respected and discussed, much like they have been here in this column?

Next week I will, as promised, begin my Shippable Shows series. Thanks for reading!

35 comments:

  1. This was very well put!!! I agree with you. Bullying is so idiotic it makes me wanna hit something, and anonymous bullying (over a tv-show of all things) is even more so.

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  2. The Supernatural community puzzles me greatly. There has arguably never been a more anti-shipper show in the WB/CW web of programs than Supernatural, and yet it's yielded the biggest and most bizarre web of them.
    The question would have been better handled with a quick joke and a "I don't think so, honey" from Jensen Ackles. Everyone involved beyond that looks small and childish and way too obsessed over shippings that have no basis in the reality of the program.

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  3. english isn't my mother tongue, so what does «shipping» mean here?

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  4. Well said.


    In the upheaval in SPN fandom afterwards, there was big talk about "respect," which didn't apply to how fans treat other fans, apparently, because in the course of that talk, I saw a ton of bashing, shaming, and put-downs fan to fan, all in the name of enforcing this "respect." There was a lot of derailing from the actual core of what apparently happened in the room and the core issues involved. Somehow the fact that shaming and bullying and attempts at silencing took place didn't seem to matter.


    The whole thing left me with an overall thought: fandom needs to slow its roll about shipping. Like a ship, don't like a ship, agree or disagree it could become canon, but things are changing and society is changing and the TV landscape is changing. So the pearl-clutching and vapors and shaming and bullying and insults every time it comes up just seems antiquated.

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  5. When you want two characters on a show to get together, and talk about it with other people. Like a Dean and Sam who want them to get together, or a MerDer shipper who love Meredith and Derek as a couple on Grey´s

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  6. thanks for the answer. :)

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  7. The ship wars are one of the reasons I left SPN fandom it was incredibly draining every week post episode to have all the different sides screaming at each other. 2 years since I left seems like things are only getting worst. Real shame.

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  8. It is utterly NOT inappropriate to ask a question about a fictional character's sexuality. It's not as if gay characters are unknown in genre television and to shut down debate and discussion of it is frankly outrageous. Both Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Battlestar Galactica, seminal genre shows, benefitted from having gay characters and thereby reflecting a greater range of human experience. Supernatural now has a prominent gay character as well, one that for once is not being played for laughs.

    I'm not a shipper, I've never been a shipper of any kind. But in a public Q&A and as an actor myself I would always be interested in how an actor approaches the sexuality of the character they play. There has always been a group of fans who ship their respective characters and there have even been jokes about it on the show. From the outset their characters have been mistaken as a gay couple by strangers. People have a right to at least ask what the actors think of it and how they think their characters process ideas/feelings around sexuality, even if they don't choose to go into a lot of detail in their answer. Perhaps the fear was that the question would become explicit and that's why it was shut down, but to jeer someone just for approaching the matter is ludicrous.

    Having said that, I expect Jensen Ackles was put in an extremely awkward position, especially once the booing started, and it isn't his responsibility to resolve the tension in a situation like that. The chair of the Q&A and the organisers should have had a much more mature reaction. What I also think is that fans should always be supportive of other fans and open to the fact that different people watch for different reasons. In the end we all talk about this show because we enjoy it. The show is just entertainment. All the bad feeling is so OTT and uncalled for.

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  9. You´re welcome! English isn´t my mother tongue either, so I know that some english words and expressions are difficult to understand.

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  10. Same thing happened to me. I dared say that I like a certain woman starting with the letter L, and you would not believe all the hate I got. Ridiculous.

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  11. I didn't only find it with shipping. When I joined the forums around season 4 I just wanted to chat about a show I liked, but even suggesting you liked an episode other people didn't enjoy exposed you to a wave of hate. I have no problem with people disagreeing with my opinion, but there are Supernatural fans who take every storyline or character they don't like as a personal insult. There are also plenty who don't, and plenty who have a sense of humour about their obsession with the show, probably the majority in fact, but they get hammered in online communities with such frequency they stop bothering to post.

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  12. Yeah, I know. Saying that I loved season 6 got me so many rude comments, you wouldn´t believe. I don´t get the point of that, I really don´t. I don´t force anyone to think and/or like the same episodes and/or characters that I do and I don´t mind when people disagree with me, just as long as they are somewhat polite about it.


    And if you think some Supernatural fans are crazy, you should go to some soap opera forums. Oh my.

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  13. I know that British primetime soap actors who play nasty characters get spat at in the street and some have received death threats in the past for things their characters have done. The level of emotional involvement, to the point of losing sight of the division between drama and reality, from some viewers can be completely inexplicable.

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  14. It´s a crazy world we live in *shakes my head*


    I can´t help but wonder if this is, in part, the internet´s fault? Where people really this crazy about TV- shows and it´s characters before there where internet forums and fan pages?



    And when you go up to an actor and spit on him or her because something the CHARACTER did on a show, you need serious help.

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  15. I don't think the internet has anything to do with it. This problem in Britain with soap actors receiving abuse has been going on at least since the 1980s. I think it's people who feel disconnected from their own lives, that their own experiences lack the transformative power that they see in characters on television, where intense events allow them to connect with others on a deeper level. So they over-involve themselves in fictional stories about people whose lives are transformative and extreme, and who therefore are profoundly alive. Aristotle talked about this way back in Ancient Greece when he wrote about drama, saying the primary purpose was catharsis - to live out experiences that people lack in their own lives, to see desires play out that in real life people don't get to act on. But as a result people can actually submerge their own lives and emotions under the fictional one, which starts to feel more important and more real.

    It's also a bit like servants who used to obsess over the intrigues of the families they worked for, becoming obsessively loyal to specific individuals they served and hating others, picking sides in feuds and rivalries. It was a coping mechanism to distract from the drudgery and tedium of their own lives, which no one seemed to care about.

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  16. You should maybe tag this post as "Supernatural" or no one's going to see it once it leaves the front page of the site.

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  17. Everyone obsessed with a character should read your comment! It is spot on. Feel like copy-pasting to Word and then printing it and giving it to people to read.

    I myself have noticed then when I have a lot going on in my personal life that I don´t know how to handle, I tend to watch more TV. But, going from that to issuing death threats...

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  18. Dude

    1)She was told after Misha's panel(where she also asked a Destiel related question),by both con staff & fans,to NOT ask Jensen that question.She did it anyway.

    2)Asking Non-canon shipping questions at cons IS beyond stupid & disrespectful.


    3)She got booed because this shit has become old as fuck & annoying to both Jensen & fans.


    4)She caused havoc & hate towards Jensen.She was warned about it but still did it anyway.


    5)She deserves all she gets(except death threats).


    6)Non-canon ships need to remain in fandom & not pushed at the actors,writers,& producers.

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  19. No, it's not the Internet's fault. 40 some odd years ago an actress named Eileen Fulton, who played the bad girl on As the World Turns was attacked by fans on the street who wanted her to stop whatever machinations her character was involved in. People get wrapped up in a story and the lines between reality and fiction blur.

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  20. The reason she was booed is she was asked not to ask that because it puts the actors in an awkward position and the non-shipper fans are annoyed with fans that ship pushing for their ship to be real/insisting it is.

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  21. Any comment you received with more than five exclamation points at the end is from someone clearly wearing their underwear on their head and should be treated as such. See Terry Pratchett, 'Masquerade.' :)

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  22. One of the most icky questions I ever heard asked was a guy asking Jensen which of the girls he'd kissed on the show did he think was the hottest. That is what I would call completely inappropriate, but no one booed him for asking that and Jensen diplomatically sidestepped it by saying he'd worked with a lot of beautiful women. It wasn't a perfect answer but he was in an awkward position that he dealt with as best he could. Then the discussion moved on.

    I don't see why there's a problem in asking about a character's sexuality any more than you might ask about what their favourite movie is. Jensen would have been within his rights to say "I've answered that question so many times that I don't think there's anything more to say on the subject" and that could have been it. But the hate from fans just for asking was totally pointless.

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  23. Great point. People have every right to ask about perceived subtext. Though to be fair it's probably better to ask the writers what they're trying to say when Dean looks at other men, rather than asking Jensen Ackles to interpret the writers' or directors' decisions. He's inevitably going to bring his own wishes for the character into the mix and that is potentially why those questions make him uncomfortable. Most actors never want to seem to bump heads with writers in public. But, again, all he has to say is that he can't really offer an explanation.

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  24. Yeah, I know that feeling. It´s a bit scary how a TV show can take over ones life.

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  25. You didn't mention one of the most serious and long lasting "aftermaths". The fact that Jensen Ackles was attacked & slandered online repeatedly for not answering the question the way certain factions of fandom wanted him to. It was repulsive.

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  26. Well, quite. Though I'm not sure I agree that it's been gradually and organically revealed. To me it seems that when he occasionally expresses attraction for another man it's played for laughs rather than as a fundamental part of his character. I don't think they want to take it any further than that. (Though granted I don't know every example off the top of my head).

    I think this is very problematic though. What they're really doing is saying that Dean might seem like a manly man but har-dee-har, he's actually a big sissy. I don't think that's what the writers THINK they're doing, but that is the basic message that's coming across. It's annoying because people who do feel attraction to someone of the same sex, whether they're gay or bisexual, can suffer a lot of heartache and fear if they don't feel they can act on it. To say we can laugh at THAT when we are expected to empathise with all manner of other horrible experiences Dean has, all the other ways he represses or denies his own needs and emotions, just messes up the coherence of the character.

    It's also problematic because there are people that have real reasons for paying attention to a character expressing homosexual/bisexual feelings. It matters to gay and bisexual people to see people they root for on TV express thoughts and feelings they relate to, especially when there are so few of them. It shouldn't just be treated as a throwaway joke. It disrespects those for whom those feelings are very real, it undermines the integrity of the character you're writing for and, as we've seen with Dean, it builds up unrealistic hopes and expectations among the audience that the writers have no intention of following through on. And that's just shoddy writing.

    I don't think the writers think Dean is bisexual. They just think it's funny for him to find another guy attractive from time to time. And that bothers me a lot.

    Ah, I don't know though. I've never given this a lot of thought until now, writing this post. Every piece of fiction can have multiple readings. I suppose it's possible the writers are doing a Spartacus and really do have a secret subtext of Dean being gay and having uncomfortable feelings for his brother, that they haven't even told the actors about. But that doesn't really seem to be Eric Kripke's vibe to me.

    But fundamentally, whether the writers ever intended any of it it to mean something or not, viewers are allowed to ask about it and should expect to be treated with respect when they do.

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  27. I suspect the girl that got booed and jeered by her peers after revealing her sexuality, as well as intimidated by a bodyguard and ignored by an actor she admires is probably more distressed by the event than a well-off actor who was at a Q&A he'd been paid to attend. I'm sure it's extremely grim to get abuse online and I agree it's uncalled for, but I doubt Jensen Ackles indulges in reading what the fandom is saying about him very much, and I don't think that's the worst thing about this story.

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  28. 99% of the time I try not to take part in those kinds of discussions, but I think I'll make an exception here.

    There were three things that irritated me the most in this whole situation:

    First - making this whole affair about shipping in the first place.



    The girl who tried to ask the question in the first place created a tumblr just to show the fandom her side of the story. Not many involved in the discussion cared to read it, it seems. Her question was not about shipping. To create a ship, you need more than one character. She is bisexual, this season, she started to notice things that made her think Dean might be too.

    She thought a character on her favourite show might represent her in some way and she wanted to ask the person most qualified to confirm/deny whether what she saw was true or not.

    That's it. There was no other character or ship involved in the question.

    Second - blaming the girl, Jensen, the organisers and/or Cliff for the situation.



    Cliff did not come out to intimidate her. He came out in case he had to deal with the booing crowd. From what the girl has written, he was actually really supportive and acted the nicest about the whole situation. Furthermore, she believes that the 'don't spoil it for everyone' comment was not directed at her since by that time she has already stepped away and Jensen WAS NOT looking at her at all while he said it.

    The reason why she didn't finish her question was that she felt intimidated by the CROWD. Also, she didn't want to cause problems to Jensen and Cliff by finishing it. Problems they might have WITH THE CROWD not with her or the question.


    Those are things anyone who bothered to read the whole of her re-cap should know.

    Third - people talking about how ships have 'no basis in reality' and how all shippers should just 'stop deluding' themselves.



    First of all, shipping DOES NOT HAVE TO have much basis in the show. Shipping is something fans do for fun, like fanfiction, fanart, fanvids, etc. It doesn't NEED to be there in the show. It's sole purpose is to bring pleasure to the people who see the connection.

    Yes, I admit, trying to make the producers/writers to "canonise" a ship is too much. I generally dislike the idea of fans influencing the creators. Like with democracy, the idea is good, but the effect is almost always disappointing.



    All that aside, I think fans are being goaded into asking those kinds of questions. The instances of Dean showing interest in men are getting more frequent, especially this season. I have seen multiple people talking about how that was only done 'for laughs'. If that was true, than one, the creators must have really bizarre sense of humour, because a lot of those scenes were not funny at all, in fact, most seemed rather brief and neutral; and two, it implies that the creators are rather narrow-minded and uncaring about the feelings of a big chunk of their fans.


    I wouldn't mind the first, much, the other, however, makes me very uncomfortable and even slightly mad. If a character is NOT in ANY way attracted to people of the same gender, do not insinuate that he is. It is BOTH sloppy, cheap writing and plainly insulting. I am a bi-sexual person and

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  29. I would feel personally affronted by this kind of disregard to my feelings.


    CV


    PS. Sorry for the self-reply. My laptop is new and the touch-pad is very sensitive. I was trying to move the cursor out of the way, and clicked 'post' by accident.

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  30. Great points - I was wondering if I should post the link of the girl's blog and her explanation post, but honestly I didn't want to start the wank up again. For all those who are curious though, and I think this is actually a really valuable read, here's the link to her explanation: http://themysterygirlfromnjcon.tumblr.com/post/49756443708/direct-from-the-mystery-girl

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  31. It has always amazed me that people have more of a problem with the shipping aspect of the Dean & Sam/Dean & Cas but they have no problem hearing about God being called deadbeat father or Dean threatening to come for Him.

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  32. Absolutely, I agree. Some of the things fans ask are just utterly inappropriate and yet it's the non-invasive questions about shipping and sexuality that get the rudest reactions from the crowds. And yeah, Jensen is well within his rights to do a diplomatic sidestep to a question that's been asked before many times, or one that he feels uncomfortable with. He's not a delicate flower, seriously, he can handle it. It's painful to see people all up in arms about a fan asking a question that's completely serious and actually think the hate was deserved.

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  33. You made basically all the points that need to be made.

    I was going to say that there was no way the fan would have been shut down like that had Jensen Ackles himself not before hand told said boydyguard and officials to do so. If he was ok with having such a question asked he would have answered and no one would have stepped in.

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  34. As an event organizer, I would like to say that what happened to this girl is deplorable but all too common fact of fandom. Whatever fandom you may be involved with. US TV show, anime, sci-fi, comic book, BBC show, it doesn't matter.

    As the publications director for an anime convention I help draft contracts for guests. Some guests are very specific in that there are certain questions they will not answer at Q&A's, this is their right. They have a right to their privacy, personal space and to not be harassed about issues they do not wish to discuss in a public forum.

    Having said that, it is obvious to me that, with the questions being screened beforehand, there was nothing inherently wrong with her question. It was a legitimate and well founded question regarding the portrayal of a character. Had I been the moderator I would have allowed it as well.

    However, the shipping issue aside, you will notice upon watching the video that she never got further than stating that as a bi-sexual person she had noticed some subcontext. As soon as she identified as bi-sexual she started getting booed. This could be because some in the audience thought they knew where the question was going and decided they didn't want her asking it. It could be because some in the audience dislike those of a different sexuality. There are a plethora of reasons why some people decided to start booing. Every single one of them is the wrong reason and makes a horrible statement about the fans in general.

    Unfortunately, I see this type of behavior at every convention I attend and I attend mostly anime conventions and anime is much more open about homosexuality. It is not unique to this fandom. It is simply a microcosm of the larger societal perception and intolerance to those of us who do not fit societal norms.

    As for her actual question, I think it was a good one. It is something that as a bi-sexual person I have wondered about. There have been copious scenes in CANON where Dean has overtly expressed interest in, flirted with or checked out another man. If you choose to overlook this simply because you find it distasteful then you are missing a huge chunk of what the writers want you to see. If you are personally affronted by the evidence of his bi-sexuality perhaps you should take a good long honest self examination as to why you feel so strongly about a fictional character's sexuality.

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  35. I agree. I personally wouldn't ask any of the actors a question about the way the character itself is written. They only have the text, director's instructions and their personal insight into the character to go on. The writers know this and, as Jensen has said about the food from season 1 getting added to the character, they can tweak their writing to better suit the acting choices of the actor.


    As someone who works within the publishing industry (my day job) I've had so many writers exclaim that they have no idea where a certain character trait came from. This is not one of those times. This has been carefully cultivated from season 1 and slowly, organically revealed as Dean's character grows.


    Jensen is very smart to hold his personal opinions on the matter close. It's a volatile subject in any context and honestly I wouldn't want to discuss it in public before a demanding and sometimes hostile crowd either.


    I would much rather see the question put to the writers and directors since they are the ones who craft the show to make the subtext not quite so sub anymore.

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