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SpoilerTV - TV Spoilers

Supernatural - Season 8 - Various Articles and News

Apr 16, 2013

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Thanks to Elena for the heads up.

Jeremy Carver on Sarah Blake's return and more [LINK]

More people are coming back + spoilers about Crowley [LINK]

Jeremy Carver answers burning questions [LINK]
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183 comments:

  1. isleofskyeApril 16, 2013 at 11:43 AM

    Carver on Clip Show. "Flashback moments to our favourite hugs and kisses."
    I bet he manages to ruin them too, just like he has ruined Sam's character and the brotherly bond.
    X
    x
    [ +"Carver tells us that while we haven't heard the last conversation about
    Sam's year of living like a civilian, there aren't going to be any big
    twists or revelations as to why he made the choice he did. We've heard Sam's reasons, and we're going to have to accept them.
    "What
    has been put to bed, in many ways, is Sam's rationale for why he did
    what he did," Carver confirms. "He's stated his reasons, and that's why
    he did it. That said, it's still an open wound of sorts. We'll see that
    dealt with in ways that we aren't quite expecting." + ]
    X
    X
    So there's no explanation for Sam's not looking but that fact is still going to be used to createmore brother tension. Nice. Reall nice!

    ReplyDelete
  2. disqus_Mii5nv9fJhApril 16, 2013 at 12:40 PM

    Stop complining for the love of GOD ,,, I HOOOOOOPE U STOP WATCHING

    ReplyDelete
  3. lala2April 16, 2013 at 2:34 PM

    I wish I could say I was surprised that Carver wasn't ever planning to explain why Sam made the decisions he did, but I can't. It was clear - early on IMO - that Sam's reasons would be limited to "my world imploded" and "I ran." That's all we got. It was enough for some, but many wanted more. And hey, I would have been fine w/Sam not looking IF Carver had actually told a story around that, but he didn't!
    We never got a story. We should have seen Sam's grief - at least a few scenes. It should have been front and center. Instead of listening to Amelia go on about a husband we never saw and didn't care about it, we should have been seeing Sam talking to her about Dean and how he's brother's death destroyed him. If Dean's disappearance/death was the last straw for Sam or just too much for Sam to handle, then we should have seen that as well. If Sam had a mini-breakdown or whatever, we should have seen that too. The story was too subtle and vague for my taste.
    I also don't understand Carver's idea of "maturity." To me, it is not immature to look for a missing relative. Who wouldn't look for a relative who went missing? Showing Sam becoming obsessed w/finding Dean but then recognizing that he was falling into bad patterns again would have been growth and character development. But having Sam not look at all is not mature and is plain OOC.
    Plus, everyone keeps asking Sam if he looked for Dean. I thought Sam thought Dean was dead. If that's true, then why doesn't Sam ever say that? It makes no sense to look for a dead person. Could Dean really argue w/Sam if Sam told Dean he didn't look b/c he thought Dean was dead. The next question would logically be why Sam thought Dean was dead, but Dean has never asked that. Does Dean even think Sam thought he was dead? Who knows? The story has not been clear. Given that he has asked Sam if Sam "looked" for him, I guess he doesn't think Sam thought he was dead.

    ReplyDelete
  4. rehabberApril 16, 2013 at 2:52 PM

    First off Sam is still
    complaining about not having a normal life, so he has not gotten back
    into hunting and Carver can say Sam not looking for Dean is finished,
    believe me it is not. Unless there is something MUCH better than "ran,
    hit dog, met girl" this season is a bust for me.

    Dean has not really trusted Sam since he did not say he had looked for him. Dean knows Sam would have looked and Dean felt betrayed..as he should have. This Sam is not someone that I really like and that hurts. I have understood where he was coming from with the Demon blood and being soulless, but this Sam is not the character I love.



    I would give Carver a D for this season, so many times 7 years of canon has gone down the tube, I was very happy when I heard he was coming back as I loved most of his eps. Maybe it was Eric that was keeping him in line, that is who needs to come back.

    ReplyDelete
  5. lala2April 16, 2013 at 3:03 PM

    What really bothers me is JARED even says Sam would have looked for Dean. Jared knows Sam better than anyone, including Carver, b/c he's the one who has had to get into the character's head and make Sam come to life for us. I think it had to be hard for him to play this story b/c he probably couldn't find Sam's motivation/rationale for NOT looking for Dean. And when you don't believe in something, it is extremely hard to sell it to others. I hate that Carver didn't even give Jared some context for this crap storyline.
    I have a feeling I'll be giving this season a D- when it wraps up! So far, I only really enjoyed ATGB, EHH, T&E and the Prometheus episode I guess. It's not been a good season to me. I definitely think Eric was the one w/the vision, not Jeremy.

    ReplyDelete
  6. N27April 16, 2013 at 4:38 PM

    I hope Missouri Mosley aka Loretta Devine reappears.

    ReplyDelete
  7. ZoeFApril 16, 2013 at 4:43 PM

    In Zap@it's question about Dean being side-lined from the active storyline, Carver talks the entire article about Sam, without even mentioning Dean's name once. Way to perpetualize the war, you tool.

    ReplyDelete
  8. ZoeFApril 16, 2013 at 4:45 PM

    Anyone else cringing at what they may do to ruin the earlier S1 character? I hope it's Missouri.

    ReplyDelete
  9. lala2April 16, 2013 at 5:10 PM

    Honestly, I'm cringing at the ways in which Carver will very likely ruin Sam next year. He's done such a bang up job this year that I'm sure he'll try his hand at it again next year!

    ReplyDelete
  10. ZoeFApril 16, 2013 at 5:25 PM

    Even one minute of seeing Sam's grief would have been enough to avoid all the OOC anger this year. I'm certain they did it just for artificial drama. Drama for it's own sake can suck, Carver.
    And I am stymied by WHY they want to keep reminding us of his not looking, if there is no point to it in the story coming up?

    ReplyDelete
  11. ZoeFApril 16, 2013 at 5:26 PM

    UGH yes this! And are we going to keep hearing about Sam not looking into S9 too? What did Carver mean by "it's not done yet". ugh

    ReplyDelete
  12. rehabberApril 16, 2013 at 5:28 PM

    ha, I thought I was the only fan that really liked her, would love to see her back.

    ReplyDelete
  13. hlnkidApril 16, 2013 at 5:30 PM

    This fandom is funny. Earlier in the season it was "Sam is only a supporting character now" on the fan boards. Now it's "Dean is only a supporting character" during the second half of the season.



    Always kinda makes me laugh. :) Happens every year without fail. :)

    ReplyDelete
  14. chris684April 16, 2013 at 5:30 PM

    Jeremy Carver should stop talking.

    ReplyDelete
  15. isleofskyeApril 16, 2013 at 5:40 PM

    Very insightful.

    While it's true that an actor's job is to interpret the script, if he's convinced of what he's reciting, it's bound to come over more coinvolging, otherwise I can see he would have more trouble selling it.

    Perhaps that's why in ep one, Sam having no answers for Dean,seemed so completely out of character.

    If Carver had given him more to work with than to stand there silently while Dean got upset, perhaps things would have been different.

    ReplyDelete
  16. rehabberApril 16, 2013 at 5:43 PM

    And have a marathon of past seasons and learn how to write the characters.

    ReplyDelete
  17. iluvchocciApril 16, 2013 at 5:48 PM

    Omg..You are certainly not alone rehabber...i LOVED Missouri..keeps fingers crossed.. cos i think JDM is out of the running i suspect.

    ReplyDelete
  18. lala2April 16, 2013 at 5:49 PM

    He really should since he has NOTHING to say.
    Q: "Why didn't Sam look for Dean?"
    A: "Uh . . . well, Sam's rationale is Sam's rationale, and we're not going to talk about it anymore. He explained it already." AKA "I have no freakin' clue."

    ReplyDelete
  19. SuePoApril 16, 2013 at 5:51 PM

    Exactly. He was asked a point blank question concerning Dean's involvement in the mytharc and all we get is an answer surrounding Sam's character arc. I guess that in itself is an answer. Is it so hard to write an arc for both brothers? They keep saying "Sam and Dean's quest to complete the trials" but it has nothing to do with Dean at all. It is solely Sam's quest. What part of that equates them working together? Everything I hear makes my heart break a little more for the show I once loved so much. Kripke knew how to tell a story and let it unfold. It seems without him, everyone is trying to hide whats happening and shock the audience with twists or something instead of just letting us in and be a part of it. That's what I hated about season 6, and they've taken the audience out of the story by making Sam someone we don't recognize and making Dean irrelevent. And when asked directly, Carver can't even give an answer, so I guess that tells us something. Kripke come back and show them how to tell a story.

    ReplyDelete
  20. lala2April 16, 2013 at 5:51 PM

    I have no idea! But since Carver is NEVER going to permit Sam to actually ANSWER the question, I wish Carver would just DROP the issue completely.
    We get it. For no freakin' reason, Sam didn't look for Dean. Fine. That's OOC crap, but okay. There's no need to keep hammering the point episode after episode!

    ReplyDelete
  21. lala2April 16, 2013 at 5:53 PM

    Missouri was cool! I was actually hoping Sam would seek her out for some help at the end of S7 but no . . . . Sam just drove around aimlessly until he hit a dog! What a compelling arc for him! (heavy sarcasm implied)

    ReplyDelete
  22. lala2April 16, 2013 at 6:06 PM

    I think Jared and Jensen are both great actors, but I didn't buy into their "romance" storylines, and I think that's b/c the actors, themselves, didn't buy into them either. I don't fault either actor. Both storylines were crappy, IMO, and next to impossible to sell convincingly.
    Jensen knew "Dean" couldn't possibly be "in love" w/Lisa when "Dean" hadn't seen her or thought about her in years! I could have believed Dean ending up on CASSIE's door step more so than Lisa's even in light of him not seeing Cassie for four years! It was established that Cassie was the only woman Dean ever loved, and he was in a relationship w/her. It was a short relationship, but it was still an established relationship. Dean was never in a relationship w/Lisa! It was a one-week(end) stand 8-10 years prior to when he saw her again. He looked her up solely b/c he had amazing sex w/her and wanted to re-live the experience before he died. He didn't look her up b/c of some deep, abiding love for her! He goes to Hell and doesn't think about this chick for 2 years but then randomly ends up on her doorstep towards the end of S5 spouting some nonsense about "thinking of her when he thinks of happy." Haha! Okay! Please! Jensen mentioned his problems w/his S6 domesticity storyline, and I don't blame him. It came out of nowhere and dropped like a lead balloon.
    Poor Jared probably read his first scripts in complete shock that "Sam" basically abandoned Dean and hooked up w/some random woman. Jared probably first met LB when they filmed their scenes seeing as how she auditioned OVER THE TELEPHONE! No wonder they had ZERO chemistry. Plus, Jared probably couldn't find the motivation for this relationship when he's thinking his character should be looking for Dean, not having picnics and fixing radiators! And he likely got ZERO help from the showrunner or the director since they have NO clue why Sam didn't look for Dean.
    At least Jensen's crap romance didn't ruin "Dean." "Sam" time w/Amelia has really damaged the character, and Carver either doesn't notice or doesn't care! I'm not sure which is worse!

    ReplyDelete
  23. lala2April 16, 2013 at 6:14 PM

    I couldn't agree more w/you! It was definitely done for the sole sake of drama and contrived conflict btw the brothers. We can't have the brothers happy w/each other and working together, can we? What fun would that be? It only worked really well for the first three years of the show and garnered the show it's avid fanbase, but who cares about that, right?

    ReplyDelete
  24. isleofskyeApril 16, 2013 at 6:26 PM

    i always thought it was a bit ridiculous in "Point of no Return" (an ep. I loved by the way) when Sam found Dean in the motel room after having passed b to see Lisa. as if Dean had frequented her every day.

    He'd only seen her twice before, so why on earth would Sam think to call on her.

    X

    Anyway, romance and the Winchesters don't mix. The show just wasn't structured that way IMO.

    ReplyDelete
  25. lala2April 16, 2013 at 6:34 PM

    Your last line says it all! I couldnt' agree more w/you!

    ReplyDelete
  26. chris684April 16, 2013 at 6:37 PM

    If she does, I hope she asks Sam what happened to his psychic abilities.

    ReplyDelete
  27. chris684April 16, 2013 at 6:39 PM

    Well, the same thing happened in reverse last season. Sera was giving interviews for both Sam and Dean, and when asked about what will be going on with Sam that season, she gave a brief answer about his mind breaking (which we already knew from spoilers was going to happen in the first couple of episodes) and then went on and on about one of the brothers time traveling back to the 40s.

    ReplyDelete
  28. isleofskyeApril 16, 2013 at 7:20 PM

    Obviously there is a reason for it, if Carver keeps reminding us so often

    It's probably going to be used in some way; maybe Sam has to redeem himself for it in the last episode, or it will be used as another bone of contention between Dean and him in season nine :(

    ReplyDelete
  29. lala2April 16, 2013 at 7:21 PM

    If it IS used, I'm sure it will be to hammer home the point that Sam is a horrible, sucky brother!

    ReplyDelete
  30. lsbloomApril 16, 2013 at 7:47 PM

    I just have to stop reading Carver's interviews. If the motivations have been put to bed, end the damn angst too, the story is done. This is just ridiculous. Bringing back people from season 1? Why does Carver insist on writing this show like those season 1 characters are still who everybody is? What a waste of a season and show. Carver sucks. He wants characters to go on an arc and change? Then why can't he accept that they've spent 8 years changing from that early version of themselves and he can't just rework scripts that he wrote 5 years ago? Its all just so frustrating. And three good episodes in the middle aren't enough to fix this crap.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Megan_BApril 16, 2013 at 8:12 PM

    To be fair, the person who wrote this article is clearly biased, you just look at the title and how it's written. We don't see the whole Q&A. The author start with a title that will make fans fight, she doesn't mention the connections Dean had with the characters. When she decided to talk about the pat seasons, she ONLY mentioned Sam,s part of the story (Hell, Lucifer, his soul, Azazel...etc), but doesn't bother to say that in this same years, Dean sold his soul, went to Hell, got run after by the angels to be Micheal's sword for 3/4 of Season 5, broke the first sceal....etc, the list goes on.

    We don't know the questions that person asked and if there's part of the answers about Dean. How do you even know there was a meanfull question about Dean in that interview?

    If the questions was:
    ''-Why is Sam the one making the trials? '', the answer goes well

    If the question was:
    ''If Dean doing other things than cooking?'', than we can say Carver ignored Dean in his answer


    I could easily go found a video or a whole transcript of an interview, take all the parts about one aspect or one character and make it look how I want it to look

    ReplyDelete
  32. lala2April 16, 2013 at 8:16 PM

    I know I'm commenting all over the place, but excellent post! You and I are on the same page. I would only re-watch three episodes (so far) (ATGB, EHH, & T&E), and that is simply not enough to save this season!
    And if Carver doesn't plan to have Sam explain his decision to abandon Dean, then quit bringing it up! What purpose does it serve?

    ReplyDelete
  33. Megan_BApril 16, 2013 at 8:23 PM

    There will always be a small and very vocal part of Samfans who will scream bloody murder everytime Dean has something to do or taking screentime from their favorite brother. Same goes with the small and vocal part of the Deanfans who will always freaked out about every single time Sam has something to do.


    No matter what the writers too, they just can't win

    ReplyDelete
  34. Megan_BApril 16, 2013 at 8:46 PM

    How are we suppose to know that the questions were Dean-oriented or about both brothers when we don't have the questions? All we have is writing only about Sam's part of the story in the past (nothing about Dean's parts) and the answers. If the answer was only about why Sam was the one doing the trials, I don't see what's wrong with an answer talking about Sam


    The whole article was written in a way to make Deanfans scream and fight

    ReplyDelete
  35. hlnkidApril 16, 2013 at 9:09 PM

    So true, so true. If you guys want some good brother stuff, check out the books by Rob Thurman, The Cal Leandros series. You think Sam and Dean are co-dependent...you ain't seen nothing until you've seen Cal and Niko. Similar to SPN in some aspects but very different too. All SPN fans should check it out, esp if you're disgruntled with SPN at the moment.



    I do love to promote these books, but they really are the best books out there if you're looking for a brother team that fights evil outside and within.

    ReplyDelete
  36. sdwhiskeyApril 16, 2013 at 9:18 PM

    So... 3 new articles about what's in store in upcoming episodes and nothing about a storyline for Dean?

    Of course not.

    We have Cas with the Angel tablet on the run from Naomi, we have Kevin with the Demon tablet on the run from Crowley, we have Sam seeing people from his past and getting ready for his final Hell trial, and we have Dean ... doing what? Worrying about Sam? That is NOT a storyline for one of the show's leads.

    Hey, maybe Dean's storyline is actually as a cook. He could learn to bake his own pie! -_-

    ReplyDelete
  37. chris684April 16, 2013 at 9:35 PM

    As unsatisfying as the answers were, part of me is glad that he's not bending to either fan group. The worst thing he could do right now would be to appear to be bending under fan pressure. This fandom is so needy and demanding it would set a really bad message if fans took from this that acting out is going to get them what they want.

    With that said though, I really wish he'd start letting Sam start defending himself. Sam used to be so good at that. He used to want to be a lawyer once! Carver says that Sam has given his reasons, but he really hasn't. We've gotten cryptic answers that don't make a lot of sense. Sam needs to be allowed to talk about what happened and why he chose what he chose.



    That's the second time the tone on a Carina article made me cringe. She comes across like a 16-year-old fan girl rather than a professional journalist, if that's what she calls herself.

    ReplyDelete
  38. fazziemodoApril 16, 2013 at 10:27 PM

    I could be satisfied with Carver saying Sam has given his reasons if he truely let Sam own his reasons, which I feel he hasn't let Sam do.

    Telling Dean to get over it or he'll walk or standing there while Bobby rail him out about it doesn't make me feel like I'm watching a so called mature Sam. Especially seeing how his reasons are now being cobbled along with him doing the trials to get Dean to a better place when he can get to want normal too - if anything Sam in those moments comes across as a condescending four year old..

    But on the whole the tone of the article just makes me annoyed.

    ReplyDelete
  39. SuePoApril 16, 2013 at 10:47 PM

    The sentiment isn't lost on Carver. "I know exactly the debate you're talking about," he says. "I understand it, on one level -- and this is as defensive as I'll get, in this conversation, at least until you nail me with something else -- I just hope the fans realize that we're not leaving anybody on the sidelines."

    To me that says the question was asked about Dean being sidelined and the answer was a non- answer. If the fans did realiz they're not leaving anyone on the sidelines, they wouldn't be asking the questions. Maybe he's a graduate of the Sera Gamble School of Coy Nonanswers. Unfortunately not giving an answer does not give the people voicing the question any incentive to watch. Coy doesn't work in television.

    ReplyDelete
  40. chris684April 16, 2013 at 10:48 PM

    "if he truely let Sam own his reasons"
    I don't know what this means. I don't think Sam has done a very good job of explaining his reasons, but I haven't seen him deflecting responsibility at any point. If there was a scene where Sam blamed the dog, or something like that, I missed it.

    "Telling Dean to get over it or he'll walk"
    Dean wasn't trying to have a frank, honest conversation. He was delivering passive agressive jab after jab. To be honest, if I were in Sam's shoes, I'd do the same thing. It does no one any good to stay in a verbally or otherwise abusive relationship.

    "or standing there while Bobby rail him out"
    What was he supposed to do? Hit him?

    "Especially seeing how his reasons are now being cobbled along with him doing the trials to get Dean to a better place when he can get to want normal too"

    Dean is very emotionally damaged, and I think most people would agree on that. Why shouldn't Sam try to help him if he can? Sam is criticized for wanting to help Dean, but he'd be criticized even worse if he didn't try to help Dean.

    ReplyDelete
  41. C PApril 16, 2013 at 10:58 PM

    He and the new writers.

    ReplyDelete
  42. fazziemodoApril 16, 2013 at 11:05 PM

    "If he let Sam own his reasons" Well this supposed agreement lets Sam also put it on Dean for not looking - the agreement needed two people to make it.

    "Telling Dean to get over it or he'll walk" Sam delivered the ultimatum after he Dean had let go of the penny at a point where Dean had come to try and clear the air. Dean wasn't delivering the jab and jab at that point, if he had then I could let it pass but it was after Dean had come to his senses when things had been forced out of him. Sam had a right to be angry but nothing had been forced out of Sam so it came out a lot more vicious than it needed to be seeing how Dean was essentially vulnerable at that point.

    Yes Dean is emotionally damaged, more so now than he has been in a long time seeing how he's regressed to picking up after everyone. And yes, Sam has a right to help him yes but it is the way he helps that can be criticized. Sam's way of helping Dean tends to put pressure on Dean to conform to his ideal of what is best for Dean - he wants Dean to see normal, he wanted Dean to try an apple pie life at the end of season 5 when he jumped but that puts a lot of pressure on Dean to conform to Sam's ideas.

    If Sam completes the trials and survives does that mean the emotionally damaged Dean would feel obligated to conform to what Sam wanted even though we saw that Dean wasn't happy with suburbia? Is that very different from what John did to the boys when they were growing up on an emotional level?

    ReplyDelete
  43. Megan_BApril 16, 2013 at 11:31 PM

    and what was the question? With such a biased author, I wouldn't be surprise she almost ask the exact question word for word ''Is Dean only cooking while Sam has his own show?'' or ''lot of fans complains that you don't give a damn about Dean''. If she didn't ask real questions like ''what's in store for Dean'', don't expect him to answer with elaborate answers. Did shey continue after asking why he said that nobody was on the sideline, if something was coming for Dean?

    When you put a title that you know will create a huge bloody and ugly fight, don't throw things totally out of context like that while only talking about one side like her 'In past season Sam did this and that and this and that' without ever mentionning Dean. If she doesn't know why people on the comments are going nuts, she's either have absolutely no idea what she's doing or she did that on purpose

    ReplyDelete
  44. fazziemodoApril 17, 2013 at 12:03 AM

    But it does push it back on Dean when Sam doesn't say that he gets why Dean feels the way he does about it. Because Sam doesn't vocalise that he gets why Dean was hurt while hanging onto the agreement it does push Sam's decision (which is his right) onto Dean, why should he be angry about not being looked for when he and Sam made an agreement. Just like the ultimatum, yes the tension had been building but Sam punched back after it had to be all magnified and forced out of Dean - Dean had a right to be pissed and so did Sam after the siren but instead of dealing with it Carver made Sam look like a douche by going on the offensive with a Dean who had just been essentially possessed. Something Sam had experienced first hand on a number of occasions but instead of actually dealing with what was said or let Dean apologose, he told Dean to shut up or he'll walk. That shouldn't cause the relationship to become healthy, it should cause more resentment because a normal human reaction isn't to simply get over a grudge that way. It only pushes it down further unless you are a complete doormat or a character that is being poorly written.

    As for Dean being obligated, yes he dreamed of Lisa but as he said in 6.01 he says he only went to them because of the promise he made to Sam, not because at that point he wanted to. He wasn't ready to make that leap to white picket fence and make it really work. You can't push an emotionally damaged person into the place, they may claim to want to be, when they aren't ready and think it is going to end well especially when there is a caveat of 'you promised' or 'I did this so you could see this'. Also Sam isn't talking about having a life and hunting, he's continually stated that the light at the end of the tunnel is 'normal' which is a life without hunting but he is planning to make Dean see it too, but that is a bit arrogant. It suggests that Sam still thinks that Dean will eventually come round to seeing normal in the same way he does even though he is a different person and may have a completely different light at the end of that tunnel that makes him happy and he may find that on a completely different time schedule than Sam can handle.

    ReplyDelete
  45. JulianaApril 17, 2013 at 12:07 AM

    For the most part I'm the kind of fan who stands behind Supernatural no matter what because after all this time I still ADORE our show, and although there are LOTS of things I haven't loved in the last 8 years I don't go around complaining and bi*****g left and right and getting into ridiculous arguments with other fans, because what good does that actually do. Also, if there was ever a time when I feel like I honestly don't enjoy watching the show anymore and I think the show runners have "ruined" it or something, I wouldn't spend my time, again, complaining and whining about EVERY single episode and little thing that I didn't like EVERY single week after an episode! I would simply stop watching it because that's the rational thing to do if you don't enjoy a show anymore (as apposed to being one of those "fans" who apparently can't seem to stand anything about the show anymore, yet they insist on inflicting their negativity on the rest of the fandom at every opportunity...). Now, with all that said, I have to put my two cents on the whole "Sammy didn't look for Dean" debacle, and Carver's "answer". I honestly believe Carver went ahead and took the decision to have Sam not look for Dean without truly realizing what an outstanding c*** up this was. He dropped the ball BIG TIME and now he can't really explain this decision satisfactorily to the fans because there simply is no good reason behind it, it was out of character, COMPLETELY out of character, it is just NOT Sam for him to not even try, even if he eventually had to give up. And Carver didn't understand just how bad he screwed up until after he realized he couldn't get away with this change of personality with fans who know this characters so incredibly well. So now he has no option but to stick to his guns and his flimsy reasoning because by now he knows he screwed up but there's just nothing he can do about it.

    ReplyDelete
  46. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 12:11 AM

    Every time I hear from Jeremy Carver I get more and more convinced that he doesn't know what Supernatural is about. He's just making things up as he goes, canon be damned. All that is left is for him to bring back Missouri Mosley as the "even farther back" guest and it will make my general loathing of season 8 complete. At this point I am in favor of firing them all - producers and writers - in hopes of getting a glimpse of the show I adored.

    ReplyDelete
  47. JessieApril 17, 2013 at 12:12 AM

    Don't ever stop sharing your opinions. I share them all! I didn't think I could dislike JC more but I was wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  48. JessieApril 17, 2013 at 12:14 AM

    No one if forcing you to read a post you don't agree with/ aren't interested in. If you don't like it - skip it.

    ReplyDelete
  49. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 12:14 AM

    Isle of Skye may not stop watching Supernatural, but I certainly will after my commitments to this season are over. Until then, I reserve the right to exclaim to the heavens that Jeremy Carver has ruined this show irreparably. After all, I sat through all the comments about Sera Gamble and she didn't do anything as bad as this season is (except maybe killing Bobby.)

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  50. JessieApril 17, 2013 at 12:16 AM

    There isn't even one episode I want to re-watch from this season. Say what you will about Sera but there were always some excellent episodes to be found within the mess she oversaw. This season --- no. I wish JC would leave. Somebody please give him a job running another show. And to think I was excited when he took over as showrunner.

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  51. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 12:16 AM

    Sadly yes because Jeremy Carver still has not grasped the meaning of "mature" yet. Perhaps we can send in dictionaries...and an atlas for the writers. Jeremy would be better off to just say he made a mistake and work to better understand this show.

    ReplyDelete
  52. chris684April 17, 2013 at 12:18 AM

    I don't agree with a lot of what you said here. I could respond to this by tearing apart every little hurtful thing Dean has ever said, but I don't because it just creates a negative atmosphere on these boards, and because it would really make me hate the show. I get that you have a lot of anger toward Sam. I think everyone who visits these boards regularly knows that you don't like Sam. This site used to have a better tone to it. People complained and griped, and joked, and cheered, and whatnot, but most tended to avoid the constant trashing of the characters - especially Sam and Dean - because we all realized that those comments always elicit a defensive, emotional response, and would just lead to brother wars and a toxic environment on these boards. I'm asking, can you cut back on the Sam bashing?

    ReplyDelete
  53. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 12:19 AM

    Nothing about this whole storyline has made sense. It would not have changed the situation at all if Sam said he had looked and nothing came of it. They would still be where they were at the beginning of this season and the fandom wouldn't have been shocked at the complete reversal of canon that had been on the show for 7 seasons prior.

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  54. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 12:21 AM

    It's almost like they are trying to antagonize us by slapping us in the face over and over again. That's the way it felt to me when they brought Bobby in on it last episode. It was contrived drama at its worse and at most a distraction from the fact that the standalones have sucked and there was less forward movement on the mytharc this season than last year, where everyone kept harping on it.

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  55. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 12:25 AM

    They don't even have to be happy per se. They need to be on the same page, knowing they have each other's backs making progress on some mission together where they are the heroes of their own story. They have to act like brothers where family is the most important thing instead of two people who are stuck together until they can separate which is what this whole season has felt like.

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  56. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 12:30 AM

    That is my new endgame for Supernatural - Kripke comes back. I no longer trust this show in anyone else's hands. To be honest, I wasn't always crazy about some of Kripke's choices (demon blood addiction) but at least it felt like a cohesive story where everyone was on the same page instead of everyone out for themselves and their own pet characters. Kripke had vision, a foundation of canon not to be crossed, and a solid grasp on who the brothers are. More importantly, he knew the brothers are the core of the show and had their characters driving the plot instead of the plot meandering every which way with 10 people trying to grab the wheel.

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  57. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 12:32 AM

    This season is a solid F for me. The only thing that saves it is if in Clip Show we find out the whole season was one long nightmare that Sam is waking up from.

    ReplyDelete
  58. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 12:35 AM

    That would be the ultimate final straw for me. If Missouri appears again and is the same way, I may literally put my foot through my TV screen.

    ReplyDelete
  59. rehabberApril 17, 2013 at 12:37 AM

    When Sam told Dean he would walk, he sounded like a 10 year old, saying do it my way or I will take my bat and ball and go home...oh poor baby. Dean should have told him, don't let the door hit you on the way out. Why would Dean ever trust Sam again, other than Dean has been pulling Sam out of messes their whole lives.

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  60. fazziemodoApril 17, 2013 at 12:37 AM

    You asked me to elaborate so I did. That isn't Sam bashing to me that is explaining my reasoning and all I can say is that I get that you don't like what I say and all I can say is sorry for that but that doesn't change why I said it.or I'm saying it.


    I am not starting any so called brother war I am saying what has caused me to lose respect for Sam this season and this article as it was didn't exactly fill me with much hope.


    Oh side note - there are plenty of things that have annoyed me with Dean too if that makes you feel better, but if you want to tear apart everything Dean said feel free to vent. Got no problem with it.

    ReplyDelete
  61. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 12:37 AM

    Bwah! I am starting to wonder if Jeremy Carver got a concussion and is still not really here. How can he not see that he always makes things worse?

    ReplyDelete
  62. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 12:39 AM

    It is hard to sell it as both brother's quest when Dean isn't even in the realm in which the trials are taking place. I don't understand how whenever they have the chance to give the story balance they run in the opposite direction.

    ReplyDelete
  63. rehabberApril 17, 2013 at 12:58 AM

    All Sam had to say was Yes, I looked. Three little words and I would not have felt so bitter that they ruined one of my favorite brothers.

    ReplyDelete
  64. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 1:06 AM

    For some reason, I thought she was asking the questions in her interview with Carver. I don't think she could take someone else's interview and just piece it together. It certainly sounds like she is the one who asked these questions even if others were or were not part of the interview. If this is not the case and someone else asked these questions, then you have a valid point.

    ReplyDelete
  65. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 1:07 AM

    If he brings back Missouri, there is always a slight possibility that he will improve her. If anyone needs to be OOC, it's Missouri.

    ReplyDelete
  66. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 1:09 AM

    Actually if he keeps sidelining both Winchesters, he might as well take them out of their wallpaper duties too. That way they really do get the scene off instead of standing around watching like the rest of us. At least then we would know that their children were getting plenty of daddy bonding time.

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  67. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 1:11 AM

    I honestly think it is Jeremy Carver and the writers' attempt at meta. It's like they are sticking their fingers in their ears and sticking out their tongues at the fans as if to say we aren't listening and we'll do whatever the hell we want to these characters.

    ReplyDelete
  68. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 1:13 AM

    The problem is that BOTH sides had a legitimate complaint. It could have been easily resolved by letting both brothers be a part of the trials but that would mean not screwing over the fans and Jeremy Carver is not capable of that.

    ReplyDelete
  69. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 1:14 AM

    Actually, just fire the writers and start anew. They couldn't be worse. And then yes, everyone needs to be required to watch SPN's past seasons.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Megan_BApril 17, 2013 at 1:25 AM

    I don't think you understood what I meant. Even if she was the one asking the questions, she still only took the parts she wanted and put it to make it look the way she wanted. I never said she wasn't the one asking the questions. Where do you see that???

    Just because she asked the questions doesn't mean she can't put it together and biased it the way she did it. Like I said, if the question was something like ''Why is Sam making the trials?'' and the answer is the one she quoted, by taking the question out, she can make everyone believe that she asked about Dean and Jeremy decided to ignored the Dean part in a Dean-related question. Maybe she did, I'm not saying I know for sure, but by only putting the parts she want, now everyone act like they know for sure that she indeed asked the right way.

    If she really wanted to be a real journalist and not like like a teen fangirl, on such a touchy subject that is creating a huge ugly fight, she should've put everything, don't put such a title and let people decide. She start the article saying everything is a matter of opinion, but she writes in a way that we have to take her word that Jeremy hates Dean because we only have a couple of quotes out of context. When you know you're about to write something that will create blood, give all the information, let me see the questions, the answers and I'll make my own opinion about it

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  71. Miss SupernaturalApril 17, 2013 at 1:30 AM

    Thank you. I might not stop watching, but you described Jeremy's role on the show pretty well.

    I feel bad for you, though. I've been disappointed for a while, but I remember you loving the show and having hope not so long ago. What a difference this season (Jeremy) made...

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  72. Miss SupernaturalApril 17, 2013 at 1:54 AM

    My problem with this all is that... There was no agreement about not them looking for each other. Not making deals I would understand, but not looking? Carver created that one to start this whole fake drama.

    And things got downhill from there. A non-existence promise that they made sure to repeat over and over again at the Season Premiere hoping we would just buy it made Sam act OOC for not looking for his brother, which made Dean OOC for saying those horrible things to Sam in that episode (seriously, Dean forgave Sam seasons ago and never, never blamed Sam over what soulless did) which caused Sam to give that ultimatum that almost made me punch my computer.


    I honestly can't blame Sam or Dean for these behaviors because I think it was OOC. It's all on Carver and Singer.

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  73. Megan_BApril 17, 2013 at 1:54 AM

    I don't think she really would be emphasizing. The vocal Dean fangirls (or Sam fangirls in others situation) tend to be blind about their own favorite character, about what he's doing and only see what to other does. So they can angry everytime the other character is doing something that take time away from their favorite. It would make her more angry to hear about Sam's story. It's like some people admitted here the other day, on the other post; they come on internet to complain and when they agree with something they don't feel like sharing

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  74. chris684April 17, 2013 at 1:55 AM

    Nothing could make me rewatch season 7.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Megan_BApril 17, 2013 at 2:01 AM

    If all the sudden, out of nowhere Sam say ''nnaaaahhh I was just kidding I did look for you'', that would be weird and everybody will scream and complain it's not cannon.
    I didn't like it and I don't get why they bring it again, but I'm way past this. It happened last october, we're almost may now. It's just a tv show after all.

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  76. Miss SupernaturalApril 17, 2013 at 2:02 AM

    But there was time to fix it when it backfired on him. These fans reactions go back since Comic Convention and only got worse. He knows how bad he screwed up for a long time. He could have fixed it. He just doesn't want to.

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  77. chris684April 17, 2013 at 2:05 AM

    Or he could be saying that his overall plan is balanced and he's not going to be bullied into releasing what he's not ready to talk about yet to a reporter or rewrite the plan because vocal fans demand it. Seasons 6 and 7 are the perfect example of what happens when a showrunner has no control and is zigzagging all over the place in an attempt to please everyone. I didn't like everything he had to say either. Neither Sam nor Dean fans got much good news out of the article. But good or bad, the showrunner, not the fans, needs to have control over the story.

    ReplyDelete
  78. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 2:06 AM

    Carina is definitely a Dean fan and anytime she can talk about Dean she does. If Carver was talking about Dean, I think that would have been the focal point because she wants to talk about Dean.

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  79. chris684April 17, 2013 at 2:07 AM

    And Sam wasn't in Purgatory. Balance should be over the long-term. Dean had more of a mytharc focus than Sam in seasons 6 and 7. It's time to give Sam a turn.

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  80. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 2:13 AM

    I think showrunners have to have control over the story too but only if they understand the show they have taken over and aren't throwing all the previous seasons away to create their own so-called "plan". Also, I don't think Sera Gamble was letting fans dictate the story anymore than Jeremy Carver is. The only people who seem to be happy this year are Cas fans. As for the plot zigzagging all over and ultimately going no where, that is this season in a nutshell. I question Jeremy Carver even has a plan or a vision for the show since we have meandered all over the place with nothing unified and canon tossed out like cargo in a sinking ship. You yourself has said that Jeremy should stop talking. I agree because he never says anything, instead talking in circles that go no where. He might as well become a politician.

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  81. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 2:14 AM

    Cas and Crowley were the mytharc focus in season 6 along with the RoboSam side plot. No one had a mytharc focus in season 7. You are reaching here.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Megan_BApril 17, 2013 at 2:21 AM

    Don't think it was moving slower this season than last year. Last year they had no clue at all about....everything (what the leviathans wanted, what they were doing, how to kill them...etc) 'til episode 20.

    This year there wasn't much in the first half, except getting the tablette and their prophet, but we had the discovery of the first trial, making the first one and the second one. They totally should've put the second trial in 2, or even maybe 3, episodes. But we still advanced. And they already introduced the angel tablette for next year. I'm also betting the Man of Letter thing will play a part since Abbadon is coming back in the finale, if there's a link too, that mean episode 12 was also linked to the main story in some way. Lot more than last year

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  83. lala2April 17, 2013 at 2:24 AM

    I definitely don't think he understands the show at all!

    ReplyDelete
  84. chris684April 17, 2013 at 2:24 AM

    I obviously don't know what was happening behind the scenes, but there were a lot of dropped storylines and sudden about faces that seemed to be a response from negative backlash: Soulless Sam's arc ending prematurely, the Cambells disappearing before their story had been told, Cas being killed off only to come back a few months later, a lot of excitement over Sam's mental break only to have it turn into palm rubs when vocal Dean fans complained. Last season screamed a show with no one in charge. There's a lot to be critical in this season too, and I'm sure there's a lot that will come in the future I won't like, but as I said in another post, the worst thing Carver could do right now would be to immediately bend to fan pressure. Fans with this show have become used to getting their way and the ugliness in the fandom is a testament to that.

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  85. chris684April 17, 2013 at 2:27 AM

    Who was the hero who had a close personal connection with one of the season 6 villians and who faced off against Cas and Crowley at the end? Who killed Eve? Who became obsessed with killing Dick Roman, eventually killed him, and was sent to Purgatory for a year as a result?

    ReplyDelete
  86. Miss SupernaturalApril 17, 2013 at 2:27 AM

    Soulless!Sam didn't end prematurely in my opinion. It went on for half of a season. I think it was dragged too long for me, tbh. I still celebrate the return of the real Sam Winchester.

    ReplyDelete
  87. lala2April 17, 2013 at 2:29 AM

    Exactly! They knew last summer that this was a controversial decision! For whatever reason, Carver didn't bother to actually tell a story about Sam's decision. He left the story to two simple lines: "my world imploded" and "I ran." Those two lines cannot do not equal a story, and they certainly don't offer enough explanation for Sam not looking for Dean!

    ReplyDelete
  88. Miss SupernaturalApril 17, 2013 at 2:30 AM

    ... And it was the "mature" thing to do. :\


    (I agree)

    ReplyDelete
  89. chris684April 17, 2013 at 2:32 AM

    I didn't like the soulless Sam arc either, but I've heard their plans were to run it longer. They cut it back because of fan backlash. I also suspect there were plans to link soulless Sam to what was going on with Cas and Crowley (the conversations between Sam and Cas seemed to have a lot of subtext in Caged Heat), and I suspect that was cut as well - probably because certain fans would have had a fit if Sam was connected to the mytharc and Dean wasn't.

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  90. Miss SupernaturalApril 17, 2013 at 2:38 AM

    I don't think it was cut short because what I read stated that returning Sam's soul was always the plan for the mid-season cliffhanger.



    Anyway, I won't lie, I loved to finally have our Sam back, so I won't get too much into that.

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  91. rehabberApril 17, 2013 at 2:43 AM

    You just made my point...Sam has ALWAYS been there for Dean and now for no good reason, he does not have his back, does not even look for him. This is a Sam that has something wrong with him. I think Dean has every right to be hurt and distrustful.

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  92. Miss SupernaturalApril 17, 2013 at 2:45 AM

    Or there could be a twist, it wouldn't be that hard if the writers had imagination and knew the characters.

    ReplyDelete
  93. lsbloomApril 17, 2013 at 2:49 AM

    Screwing with fans is the only thing Carver is good at.

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  94. lala2April 17, 2013 at 2:53 AM

    I would only re-watch the 3 I listed above. I actually really enjoyed those three and (foolishly) thought the show had rebounded from the horror of the first 11 episodes, but I was sadly mistaken.

    I loved S6 and could pretty much re-watch any episode from that season. I hated S7 (but S7 was way better than S8 IMO) and have only re-watched MTNB, HCW, TGND, and Pluckys.

    I definitely agree that JC needs to go! He should head back to "Being Human" and leave "Supernatural" to a showrunner who actually understands the characters and the show.

    ReplyDelete
  95. lala2April 17, 2013 at 2:56 AM

    Yeah . . . Carver seems like the stubborn type who is unwilling to admit he made a mistake and took the wrong course of action w/r/t Sam.

    ReplyDelete
  96. chris684April 17, 2013 at 2:56 AM

    And Sam has a right to be hurt and distrustful to learn that Dean was lying to him all of this time when he pretended to believe that soulless Sam wasn't really Sam, or that he had forgiven Sam for what had happened with Ruby. As I said in a previous post, why can't we (the fandom) forgive anything when the characters (especially Sam) act emotionally? If Sam was hurt by learning that Dean still harbored so many grudges, and because Dean had told him his new vampire friend was a better brother than he was, after all of the years that Sam had had Dean's back, why can't Sam be angry too?

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  97. rehabberApril 17, 2013 at 2:57 AM

    I am probably not going to say this right, but I have liked several of the eps this season and would have put it very high on my season list..except for the Sam problem. I agree some of the eps were way off base, but just watching and taking each ep on its own without worrying about canon or continuity, I enjoyed them. Trying to fit then into the big picture was much harder. Hope that makes sense. lol

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  98. lala2April 17, 2013 at 3:00 AM

    It seems Carver doesn't care what the fans think. He certainly doesn't care about preserving the foundation of the show!

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  99. lala2April 17, 2013 at 3:05 AM

    I agree! Why couldn't the brothers complete the trials together? Why are they writers so limited in their imaginations? I've read better fanfic about Dean's time in Purgatory and Sam's time topside!

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  100. lala2April 17, 2013 at 3:08 AM

    Haha . . . yes, a nightmare would be preferable to this crap season! Heck, they can erase S7 too even though I loved HCW and say the past two seasons occurred in Sam's mind as he had a mental breakdown from the Cage memories/soul reunification.

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  101. lala2April 17, 2013 at 3:12 AM

    The only change is Carver wouldn't have had his contrived, forced conflict btw the brothers! What was the purpose of that anyway? Did they talk anything out? Resolve any issues? Come away stronger and more in sync? NO!
    This entire season has been a HUGE WASTE OF TIME!

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  102. lala2April 17, 2013 at 3:15 AM

    I was watching "Tall Tales" again, and it is remarkable how good the "filler" episodes or standalones used to be! Now, the stories and characters are boring.
    This season is much worse than last season, and I HATED S7.

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  103. rehabberApril 17, 2013 at 3:20 AM

    I still think this is what will happen, Sam has not been right the whole season..the not looking thing is my main one, but there have been others.

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  104. Megan_BApril 17, 2013 at 3:22 AM

    S6 and 7 I had not idea where the writers were going because of what the things you said, and others things. In S6 it felt like they threw the Campbells and Sera waited to see how the fans were reacting and killed them fast before they could have any used


    We waited in the final episodes to understand that the ''real problem'' was Crowley and Cass in the background and finally understanting the arc and the angel cival war. Last year they didn't have a clue about what the leviathans were doing, what they wanted or any clue of where to begin searching. This year is the first time since season 5 I have a feeling the show knows where its going, at least in the second half. Finding about the trials was episode 14, follow by the introduction of the angel tablet (which I'm guessing will be big part of season 9 and not this year), and the second trial. I'm guessing the bunkers will have his part to play too somewhere down the road.


    Like you said, lots of thing that people have the right to complain, but at least it look like they know a lot more what they're doing than last year or the year before.

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  105. Miss SupernaturalApril 17, 2013 at 3:22 AM

    I gave up hope, especially after this interview.

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  106. rehabberApril 17, 2013 at 3:24 AM

    Sam doing the trials alone does not bother me, Dean will be there to help, like he did in Swan Song. I figure Dean will have the Angel trials.

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  107. lala2April 17, 2013 at 4:19 AM

    I know, right? When did it become immature to look for a missing relative? That doesn't even make sense!

    ReplyDelete
  108. lala2April 17, 2013 at 4:32 AM

    Ain't that the truth!

    ReplyDelete
  109. SuePoApril 17, 2013 at 4:42 AM

    And then Dean steps out of the shower in a Bobby Ewing moment. :) I'd settle for that if we could erase the majority of this season.

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  110. SuePoApril 17, 2013 at 4:45 AM

    The difference for me is that Kripke knew how to tell a story. He didn't contrive things and misdirect then spring twists on his audience. He told the Winchesters story and invited us along for the ride. That's what hooked us. Gamble and now carver tried to be clever and throw in misdirection and cleverness instead of just sitting down and telling a good story. I just wish they could see that they don't have to be clever or tricky or coy to tell a compelling and entertaining tale.

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  111. SuePoApril 17, 2013 at 5:08 AM

    Except the angel trials is pure speculation. There is nothing that makes me even assume that will be a part of the mytharc at all -- outside of the fact they're notorious for repeating plot lines just substituting the other brother. My complaint is Dean has no active role in any of the mytharcs running. Like Dahne said, he's not even in the same realm for the trial, which Sam is adamant about doing solo, he isn't involved with the angel tablet since Cas absconded with that, he's not involved in researching the trials since that's Kevin's job and he has nothing to do with whatever the angels heaven storyline is. I'm counting how many times we see him cooking or delivering food and that seems to be his big contribution. They've made Sam unlikeable for me for a variety of OOC behavior and then made the trials -- what Carver tauted as the big quest for the season -- completely Sams responsibility. That's not the boys working together (the word 'solo' does not mean together) which is what he stated at the beginning. I'm not interested in what may happen next season, I'm looking for a reason to care about what's happening now but I'm not finding one.

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  112. comicfangirlApril 17, 2013 at 6:18 AM

    That's the only thing this "fandom" is good for: laughs.


    They actually think if they complain loud enough here or anywhere else on the net, Carver will change his direction.


    Sorry you five-year-olds Carver has obviously more balls than you give him credit for, he is showrunner and he does what he thinks best. So either take it or leave it. As simple as that.


    *leans back and reaches for the popcorn" So now start your funny, pointless rants again, they won't bother Carver. Too baaaad. LOL:

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  113. C PApril 17, 2013 at 6:48 AM

    Yeah, you'd think the new writers had never seen the show the day they stepped into the office and only had a quick overview of it before they started writing.

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  114. C PApril 17, 2013 at 7:11 AM

    I can't say that. I liked him as a writer when he wasn't running the show.

    My issue is with the Sam not looking for Dean part and the fighting over Benny and Amelia. The Amelia story in general. Sam would have had a more interesting story looking for Dean instead of trying to have a normal life and failing again.

    I'm more a Dean girl and I don't mind that Dean isn't doing the trials. I just wish he'd get more heroic moments to balance with Sam's trials instead of guest stars getting to save the day all the time.


    Hunt of the week, stand-alone type episodes have been weak for a long time now. They've been hit or miss with me since Season 3. Season 1 and 2 had lots of good ones. It's nothing new for me.


    The myth-arc story lines have been decently paced since Trial and Error, imo. 1st half so-so, but I thought it was better than S7's second half.


    For the other, new writers: Mythology being totally thrown out the window sometimes is a pain. Ouch.

    ReplyDelete
  115. C PApril 17, 2013 at 7:19 AM

    Some days I feel the same.



    The fans have all different view points, so there is never a time when everyone is happy, so sometimes a blind eye to others is needed.

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  116. C PApril 17, 2013 at 7:22 AM

    Yikes, I rate C or C-. I still like several episodes a lot.

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  117. C PApril 17, 2013 at 7:24 AM

    Yeah, Gamble and Carver were/are decent writers, but not show runners. Guess Kripke the creator knows best.

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  118. C PApril 17, 2013 at 7:27 AM

    In less Kripke comes back, I can't see any of the other writers on the team doing much better. If Gamble couldn't do it when she'd been there writing episodes for the show from the start, I don't know who could.

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  119. C PApril 17, 2013 at 7:32 AM

    I agree about the part of complaining all the time. I don't like certain things, but I still really love the show and the myth-arc is still exciting for me.

    ReplyDelete
  120. sharonallyApril 17, 2013 at 7:54 AM

    Yes he dropped the ball but unfortunately he is not the one who has and will pay the price Sam will.

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  121. fazziemodoApril 17, 2013 at 8:53 AM

    okay I can forgive Sam for being hurt about Dean holding so many grudges, I can understand he was angry but what I can't 'forgive' is Sam essentially creating another one when he tells Dean to shove his grudge or he'll walk in a situation he himself has been the victim of on a number of occasions - because he has been under the influence of things and said things he wouldn't have said otherwise that hurt Dean.


    Sam's OOC response this time though creates the beginnings of an artificial grudge that never needed to be there because as I said in an earlier post telling someone to get over doesn't cause them to suddenly resolve their issues especially when it is followed with a threat that plays on their biggest fear. All it does is make them resentful and unwilling to share with you but they do it with a smile on their face. Though seeing how Carver has suddenly made Dean a doormat I'm guessing we will never hear of this ever again, which is a shame because if he wants the boys to have a healthy relationship they should have actually dealt with it not pushed it down and topped it off with Sam reminding Dean he might be the one to kill Benny (the being Sam is pissed at Dean for trusting)

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  122. rehabberApril 17, 2013 at 12:33 PM

    YES, this is a perfect comment..just tell a good story.

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  123. DahneApril 17, 2013 at 12:59 PM

    Dean killed Eve in a last ditch plan D effort in one episode after Dean, Sam, Bobby, and Cas worked together the entire episode. In contrast, Sam is responsible for the trials, a multi-episode, systematic, half a season long arc in which only Sam can do at least 2 of them alone and Dean couldn't even be in the same realm for at least one of them. There is no comparison. There are plenty of good arguments as to why Sam should have done the trials (although no good arguments as to why both brothers couldn't have participated). This is not one of them. Your better argument is that Sam has had even less to do this season than Dean, although both of them have spent the season as pretty wallpaper for the majority of the time. How hard can it be to write for two people when you only have 2 main characters on a show!

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  124. Simon AitkenApril 17, 2013 at 1:02 PM

    I actually feel that the show should've ended at Season 5 as originally intended, while I am in the minority of those who actually enjoyed Seasons 6 - 8.



    I feel that the 'standalone' episodes has gotten very stale. What I would like to see them do is a full serialized season with maybe one or two 'break away' episodes. It has actually given me the idea of writing a fan-made season, though it is a very tough en devour. f anyone would like to help I am more than happy to take on fanfiction writers, I'm new to it.

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  125. chris684April 17, 2013 at 1:07 PM

    But maybe the idea wasn't the problem, but was the execution that was flawed. For years Sam and Dean have been learning hard lessons that their way always leads to more pain and suffering. Dean's lesson in the Samarra episode was that eveytime they've done something that violates the natural order, it has a ripple effect that causes a lot more pain all around. They didn't want to let Bobby go at the end of the season 6 but did because they seemed to be learning this lesson. In this past episode, when Bobby kept hinting that he wanted Sam to try to find a way to bring him back, Sam wouldn't give him a direct answer. I took from that he wasn't going to try to bring Bobby back. Sam seems to be thinking that this extreme way of living is causing more harm than good. And when Dean disappeared, apparently to another realm if he wasn't dead, Sam apparently felt it was time to let go and stop fighting. That doesn't mean he cared for Dean less, just that he's learned some lessons.


    But instead of Sam's POV in all of this being represented, we got a lot of Dean angst about Sam not being there for him and guilt trips about Sam not being a good brother. But again, maybe it's not the idea, but the execution that was flawed. Just because fans want something, it doesn't make it the best course of action. Maybe it's time to move the show in a new direction. The showrunner shouldn't write a story around fan responses.

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  126. chris684April 17, 2013 at 2:20 PM

    I think my argument is just fine, thank you. You may not see the close connection Dean had with Cas in season 6, and how that made the Cas-Crowley deal so much more Dean's storyline than Sam's, but I think you see what you want to see when it comes to Dean and Cas.

    I was just going to bring up the Purgatory storyline in the fist half. Thank you for doing that for me.

    One more point is that so far the trials have not taken place in Sam-centric episodes. The first one had just as much Dean focus as Sam focus. Sam wasn't even the one hunting the dog. The second trial episode had everything under the sun going on, including big scenes between Dean and Naomi and Dean and Benny. And to repeat again, Dean hunted and killed Dick Roman, and you can't deny the Levithans were supposed to be the mytharc of last season.

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  127. rehabberApril 17, 2013 at 2:41 PM

    Thanks, I just picked up the first 4 books for 75 cents each on half.com, they sound like something I would like. Have your read any of the Morganville Vampire books? Got them from the same place, but they were in volumes, 2 books each, same price.

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  128. Miss SupernaturalApril 17, 2013 at 3:28 PM

    He might have "balls", but he also has no understanding of the show, its characters and canon. Fans point at his faults. If he and you want to laugh if off, it's ok. But it also shows irresponsibility on his part. It'll never be for the best to ignore the whole past of a show. It only makes him look bad.


    Go ahead and laugh at me. It won't stop me from pointing out his mistakes.

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  129. Miss SupernaturalApril 17, 2013 at 3:49 PM

    I'm sorry, Chris, but for me the idea AND execution were wrong. I would agree with you if Dean was in fact dead (or that Sam was sure of it) or if he tried to look, failed and moved on. Dean disappeared, but he had no reason to think he was dead, so I can't compare this situation with Bobby's. I know you already know this argument, so I'll just mention the episode: "Time After Time". Sam not even trying for Dean wasn't a lesson learned. It was a mistake created to cause a fake friction between the brothers because if he had, Dean wouldn't feel hurt and Carver wanted him to be hurt to develop their fights.

    I agree with you that to SEE Sam's POV, his meltdown would lessen this mistake and I can't think of a good reason on why they didn't do that. But I won't ever be able to agree that it wasn't an OOC behavior from Sam.

    This isn't only about writing a story around fan responses. It's about writing a story respecting the whole canon and characterization. The fans were only pointing them out to him and writers. Handwave these problems won't solve anything.


    And if the writers really weren't writing episodes around fans responses, they wouldn't write some scenes and dialogues just as a pandering to certain fans.

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  130. comicfangirlApril 17, 2013 at 3:49 PM

    Well I find it laughable that you and other people in the "fandom" waste so much time to preach again and again how you dislike the show.
    As if one time weren't enough. We get it you dislike season 8.
    No wonder Carver doesn't take this fandom seriously as his interviews clearly showed.

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  131. Miss SupernaturalApril 17, 2013 at 3:53 PM

    I'm glad I'm entertaining you.



    I don't dislike the show, I dislike some of his decision.


    It's not really fandom he doesn't take seriously. It's the show itself.

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  132. ZoeFApril 17, 2013 at 3:59 PM

    Agree! I'm really wondering about him. And his slightly hostile answers show he hears the criticism, and still is making no attempt to stay 'in SPN world" boundaries. Which is pretty stupid for a show whose existence depends on what went before.
    I still think his #1 priority is Being Human and he gives the minimum to SPN, and lets Singer do the day to day, and never polices the writers.

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  133. ZoeFApril 17, 2013 at 4:07 PM

    Dean had forgiven Sam all those things - those other past reminders came through the effects of the cursed coin, not the present. The only thing that still rankled was Sam not looking, which was still affected both of them.

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  134. sharonallyApril 17, 2013 at 4:30 PM

    Preaching it seems isnt restricted to the dislike the show people. Jeremy Carver is free to do as he wishes doesnt mean he is always right or the story he has told is well told . You cannot stop people from expressing wether it is good or negative remember they might not quite have the show on the pedstal you seem to have the show on.

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  135. lala2April 17, 2013 at 5:19 PM

    I couldn't agree more! If Sam supposedly made the right decision, I wonder why people are still raking him over the coals for it? Why won't he tell answer anyone when they asked if he looked for Dean? Who actually looks for dead people?



    Honestly, I don't think any of the writers understand this made up, contrived rule. I think the question they want to have everyone ask Sam is why Sam didn't try to resurrect Dean from the dead. The question they are asking - Why didn't you look for me/Dean - is a dumb question and could be answered in one sentence: "I didn't look b/c I thought you were dead." Simple. Done. I don't see how anyone can argue w/that.



    Now, why did Sam think Dean was dead? That's a completely different question, and is one that will NEVER be answered by this writing team!

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  136. lala2April 17, 2013 at 5:23 PM

    Any show that has been on the air for 8 years is bound to have complaints. It should be expected. An entire fan base cannot remain all happy all the time.



    I have always believed that shows have a natural shelf-life. Right after the 5-year mark is when a show can start to decline. I thought "Supernatural" was going to prove me wrong, but it hasn't. Although I enjoyed S6, I do think the show has lost its magic. S7 was bad, IMO. This season is worse. I worry about S9. I really wish someone w/a clear vision (and interest in the show) would be hired as the showrunner. Then, things might turn around.


    But this is all just MY opinion. I'm happy for those who are enjoying the show. I wish I was.

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  137. lala2April 17, 2013 at 5:33 PM

    Chris, I agree w/Miss Supernatural. The idea was just bad b/c there was no reason for Sam to immediately conclude that Dean was dead. Sam is a very experienced hunter. He and Dean have disappeared before WITHOUT being dead, so why would Sam assume Dean had died this time when he hadn't the previous times? It makes no sense. Why would Sam question Crowley about Dean's whereabouts if Dean was dead?



    The problem is Carver didn't even attempt to reconcile how Sam went from demanding that Crowley tell him what happened to Dean to believing Dean died. That must have occurred in the span of what . . . 10 seconds?!?!? We're supposed to believe that Sam gave up right after Dean disappeared. It took all of 10-20 seconds for Sam to conclude that it was too difficult to search for Dean and that Dean was dead so he may as well go live his life. I'm sorry but I can't buy it.



    Sam seemed determined to locate Dean in the S7 finale. So what happened to that guy w/spirit? It just all disappeared in 1-2 minutes! No. The only way Carver's story could have worked is if Carver had bothered to explain how Sam reached the conclusion that Dean was dead. If he had just allowed Sam to do some research, speak to some people, do some spells, and THEN decide that Dean was dead, many of us would not be complaining! But Carver wants us to think that Sam Winchester just left that bldg and drove around aimlessly until he hit a dog?!?!? Nope. I don't buy it.

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  138. lala2April 17, 2013 at 5:40 PM

    Chris, I think the penny episode was just another rock in a pile against Sam since the premiere. That's why many of us have said Sam was thrown under the bus this year, and that bus repeatedly rolled over him. IMO, the rolling had stopped until the past two episodes w/more mentions of Sam's crime in not looking for Dean.



    Sam was set up to FAIL from 8.01.

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  139. March BlueApril 17, 2013 at 5:44 PM

    While it is true that Dean fans and Sam fans argue over this, the fact is, they're BOTH right. I'm a Sam fan and I feel irritated that Sam's only relevance is the myth arc and he's been written OOC all season and Carver just laughs it off. But do the Dean fans also have a point? Yes supporting characters get showcased every MOTW over him. I find him very unprofessional and incompetent.

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  140. lala2April 17, 2013 at 5:47 PM

    It doesn't bother me either, but I also think the trials could have been something they could have done together.

    Cas might get the Angel trials. He has to have some purpose next year.

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  141. rehabberApril 17, 2013 at 6:38 PM

    And a BIG AMEN to this.

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  142. chris684April 17, 2013 at 10:41 PM

    I agree that it's an OOC response, further aggrevated by the poor telling of Sam's point of view. I just don't think it's as horrible as people are making it out to be, and maybe it's just that I've moved on. My past history has been to rant about a specific major issue for about 3-6 months (minor issues are forgotten in about a week) and then move on to something else. I guess I have a short attention span.


    The biggest issue I have with this article is Carver saying that we've heard Sam's reason. We haven't, not really. We've heard vague comments that weren't eleborated on or explained, but we haven't heard him talk about his decisions in any depth. I couldn't believe that we got Sam telling Meg about his year in his own words, and his version of what happened took place off-camera. I wonder if Carver realizes how little was actually shown on the screen. This is almost up there with Singer last year saying Sam had the brundt of the emotional storyline.

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  143. chris684April 17, 2013 at 10:53 PM

    Personally I'm of the opinion that what comes out during supernatural spells are thoughts that are already inside. They may be repressed, and something the person would never vocalize or act on, but they're there none the less.


    I think there were other points of tension at that point. On Sam's side there was Dean telling Sam that Benny was a better brother and the passive-aggressive jabs throughout the first third of the season. And on Dean's, there was Dean's fear that Sam was really going to leave him for his normal life.

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  144. chris684April 17, 2013 at 11:00 PM

    I think Sam has been written less sympathetically this season than he has in the last few years, but I also think the fandom, at least on this site, tends to blow a lot of this out of proportion (specifically about Sam). This both in terms of the Sam bashing and the defensiveness over Sam. I don't see this happen as much when Dean acts badly. I have a soft spot for Sam, and I hate seeing Sam bashed, but at the end of the day, as long as I still like Sam, I can accept the story (assuming the story otherwise is acceptable), and to a certain extent, tune out the haters.

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  145. DahneApril 18, 2013 at 12:01 AM

    I actually hope Jeremy is not policing the writers. I would hate to think he read these scripts and actually approved them. If he has been neglectful that can be fixed. If he thinks this is good Supernatural, then that's a problem best fixed by firing him and getting someone new.

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  146. DahneApril 18, 2013 at 1:01 AM

    Well we all see things in slightly different lights in episodes I suppose, as you obviously have your own predilections as well. I think most people see season 7 as definitely mytharc neutral and I haven't come across too many people who think of season 6 as Dean mytharc. I'd also argue with those who see it as more Sam focused because of RoboSam and the soul issue. I find season 6 to be Cas/Crowley mytharc focused. The only truly balanced season as far as mytharc goes to me is season 5 with season 4 running pretty close. Purgatory is still the best argument for why Sam should have the trials this season (and to be totally honest it has its problems) because the old saying that Sam gets the mytharc and Dean gets the point of view is still very much true to many, many fans.

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  147. DahneApril 18, 2013 at 1:14 AM

    There were no trials on the Leviathan tablet so I think it is a mistake to assume that the angel and demon tablets will both have trials. They might but it isn't as set in stone as some people are making it out to be in my opinion. Plus even if there are angel trials it is just as possible that Misha Collins is being brought on as a regular to do them. Quite honestly, out of all the problems I have with season 8 who is doing the trials isn't anywhere close to the top of list. My biggest concern is that they were not allowed to do them together which seems very arbitrary and designed to cause issues in the fandom. That's one thing season 8 doesn't need more of...or SPN in general.

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  148. rehabberApril 18, 2013 at 2:25 AM

    In the Eric years, even the stand alone eps there was usually some comment about the on going story for the season.



    In Bitten the boys could have just stayed home for all the time they were in the ep...boring.

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  149. DahneApril 18, 2013 at 2:35 AM

    Very much agree on Bitten. It may end up my new low on my SPN episode rankings. As for Kripke, he had his issues too but I always believed him when he said he had a plan. My suspension of disbelief doesn't extend to Jeremy. I think he's picking plots by tossing darts at them.

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  150. Donna CApril 18, 2013 at 4:37 AM

    >>It's not really fandom he doesn't take seriously. It's the show itself.<<


    And therein lay the issue.

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  151. Donna CApril 18, 2013 at 4:38 AM

    He reminds me of Russell T Davies in that respect.

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  152. Donna CApril 18, 2013 at 4:46 AM

    I'd like to reset even further back. It's all an elaborate mind-jack by Alistair. Dean's still trapped in Hell, pre-season four. Yeah, I had a LOT of issues with seasons four and five as well.

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  153. Donna CApril 18, 2013 at 4:51 AM

    I definitely agree with this comment - there are writers and there are showrunners. I was never fond of many of Gamble's eps, but she was a great writer when she wrote WITH someone. Maybe if she'd had a co-showrunner, she'd have succeeded in some of her storyarcs in seasons six and seven. Carver, I don't know. I only watched the first season of Being Human, wasn't interested in coming back. I can't even remember what episodes he wrote for Supernatural.

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  154. Donna CApril 18, 2013 at 4:54 AM

    That would mean he had to admit his decision to have Sam not look for Dean was a BAD IDEA. No showrunner wants to admit something like that. Esp. when he prided himself for being so cutting edge and pushing the limits of character evolution because of aforementioned BAD IDEA.

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  155. Donna CApril 18, 2013 at 4:55 AM

    Like people were making "mature" decisions on Being Human. Hahahahahaha. I need a bigger LOLpad for all of that ROFLcopter.

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  156. DahneApril 18, 2013 at 4:55 AM

    You and me both. Supernatural was best before the writer's strike. That's actually what I mean when I refer to classic Supernatural, although even season 4 (my former least favorite season) was better than this season.

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  157. DahneApril 18, 2013 at 4:55 AM

    Works for me. Heck the entire season can exist in a snow globe if it gets us to the restart button.

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  158. Donna CApril 18, 2013 at 4:59 AM

    >> I'm happy for those who are enjoying the show. I wish I was.<<


    But they want you to go away and stop harshing their squee. I don't understand that. I love Moffat run Doctor Who and the Eleventh Doctor more than any others in the nu!Who era ... but the majority of the fandom I see hates all of it. Him, Eleven, the storylines, bitch bitch bitch. Do I tell them to go away and stop complaining where I can see it? No. Because I did the same thing the entire time RTD and David Tennant were on the show. They ignored me for the most part, and I've been ignoring them.

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  159. DahneApril 18, 2013 at 5:01 AM

    There are episodes I didn't mind and a couple that were mostly enjoyable, but no episode this season has hit it out of the park. Nothing has been outstanding and given that so much has been downright terrible, it averages to an F for me so far. Perhaps the last few episodes will change that but my hope is currently residing in the third bedroom of Apartment 1602D in the Cave of Dropped Plot Points, tiptoeing on the edge of the Cliffs of Canon Abatement.

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  160. Donna CApril 18, 2013 at 5:11 AM

    I liked her. I always wondered what happened to her. Or a number of people who've crossed paths with the Winchesters. But I don't want Carver answering those questions. For damn skippy.

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  161. JulianaApril 18, 2013 at 6:11 AM

    I SO agree with you and Miss Supernatural on this point. I think the main issue with Sam's behavior on this whole thing is that he just DIDN'T KNOW whether Dean was dead or not! He had no idea what had happened to him. Did he just go " oh he's PROBABLY dead...so I'm just going to leave it at that..." It is completely absurd! If Dean WAS dead or Sam had some sort of information "confirming" he was dead, THEN the healthy thing to do for him would be to move on and not try to get him back. But this pure lack of even a little bit of interest in finding out if he could even bring him back? It's completely out of character for pretty much anyone, least of all Sam. Wouldn't you at least try to find out whether your brother was dead or alive? I mean yes, Sam was pretty alone at the end of last season but there MUST be at least a couple of hunters left who would help him out with information. Also, I agree the not showing Sam's POV was another huge mistake. It's like you say lala2, the last we see of Sam is him not knowing what the hell happened to Sam (and Cas) and then he just happened to hit a dog on his way out and decided to shack up with this chick and forget what happened? What the hell did he do between the end of season 7 and the dog thing that made him decide to not even ask around? We have NO IDEA! The only thing we know is that he just SUDDENLY decided to not do anything, or even try to do anything. So, it IS weird, AND out of character, AND it's definitely something Carver will never admit he screwed up.

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  162. JulianaApril 18, 2013 at 6:45 AM

    That is so true! With Doctor Who fandom I seem to be noticing a lot of dissatisfaction for the Moffat/Eleven era, but the truth is I actually love it much more than the RTD's Doctor. Now don't get me wrong, I love the entire show, but I think I only started to really get into Doctor Who with the Eleven. Which is why I think I like it the most. But then I of course went back and watched all the seasons and although I loved it too I have to admit I always kind of found it to be a little bit more, in a way, "cheesy" than the Moffat era. Either way, because I'm relatively new to that fandom, I hadn't realized how many fans complain about the difference between the show runners. Still, I don't found them to be particularly "offensive" about it, because they still seem to like the show. With Supernatural though, I have to be honest, I do find myself sometimes getting honestly mad at some fans. Because it sometimes gets to a point where it is not about voicing your opinions anymore or having open discussions about what is happening in the show, It's just plain and simple negativity. And I do feel like it gets to a point where you SHOULD get out of the fandom and just STOP watching the show because there just seems to be NOTHING else you like about it besides disrupting forums and bi*** about it. I'm thinking specifically about a certain forum I like to visit pretty much every week after a new episode, so I can read about everyone's reactions and check out the discussions. And there is this one fan who without lying to you at all hasn't liked absolutely ANYTHING AT ALL since the beginning of this season. She has done NOTHING but complain and complain week after week! And the most stupid thing is how she changes her tune every week, I mean, this week "Sam didn't do anything", next week "Sam did too much", then this week "Dean didn't do anything", next week "Dean did too much"! It's like this fan doesn't even know what the hell she wants! It's even started a little running phrase among the other fans in the forum "oh what a surprise! so and so didn't like the episode this week!". Her negativity isn't constructive or for the sake of discussion, she just likes to whine, and at that point you should really just stop watching the freaking show already and leave everyone else to enjoy their show in peace. And just like her, I've encountered many other fans like this, just plain trolls! So I'm sorry, but I DO think it comes to a point where I can tell you to just STOP watching the show and GO AWAY!

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  163. comicfangirlApril 18, 2013 at 9:04 AM

    Without the good old suspension of disbelieve, most fictional shows don't work per se. As for Carver not having a plan, well he has to answer to his bosses at Warner and other investors. Do you honestly think they would give Carver serveral millions for 23 episodes without knowing what they are paying for? Doubtful.

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  164. comicfangirlApril 18, 2013 at 10:08 AM

    Well, see you next season, I doubt you will stay away since you wish the show, in your own words " to crash and burn". :(

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  165. DahneApril 18, 2013 at 1:08 PM

    I do not want the show to crash and burn and I'm not sure where you got that. For me the show has already crashed and burned but I wish it the best of luck. I'm not wishing for its ratings to plummet or for it to be cancelled. Other fans are still happy and so I hope they have another 2 good years with it. For me the show ended in season 7 and I will try hard to forget this mess of a season ever happened.


    I am simply being honest about my feelings for Supernatural this year and I have commented far less than I have since starting on this site. I rarely comment on the what did you think poll pages because I almost always think the same thing - it's a shame they have ruined SPN this year. I used to be the most active commentator on this site by a lot. Now I am not even close. I will comment even less next year since I won't have anything to do with Supernatural. You are of course entitled to your own opinion but I will not stop being honest, not will I allow anyone to curtail what I have to say.

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  166. DahneApril 18, 2013 at 1:12 PM

    My guess is that they are happy with Jeremy because the ratings went up. I just don't see that as having as much to do with Jeremy as it does with moving to Wednesday nights. My guess is that the positive fan reaction to his coming on board this summer gives him a little more leeway but I doubt that he will last for more than a few seasons. Of course if the CW itself collapses it won't matter.

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  167. lala2April 18, 2013 at 7:25 PM

    Yeah, I'm not sure why critical comments seem to bother some people. As you said, if I'm enjoying a show, I just focus on that. Viewers have the right, IMO, to vent or be upset w/the state of the show.

    I wish I could just get over the destruction done to this show, but I just can't. This used to be my favorite show.

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  168. lala2April 18, 2013 at 7:29 PM

    Well, that fan has the right to post whatever she wants as long as she's not being rude or offensive to anyone. Since you think her comments are too negative, you can just skip past her comments. Others may enjoy reading her weekly rants. What you may see as "trolling" or "being negative just to be negative," someone else may find enlightening in some way. You never know.



    I don't think anyone should be policing what others say. If a board is too critical, don't visit. If a person is always "negative," don't read his/her posts. To me, it's fairly simple.

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  169. lala2April 18, 2013 at 7:31 PM

    I think a "good" showrunner would admit a misstep/mistake though.



    Maybe if he had been paying better attention to what was being written, he could have made sure whatever story he was trying to tell was told properly, but he seems to have checked out of Supernatural. IMO, he doesn't seem all that invested in the show.

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  170. lala2April 18, 2013 at 7:36 PM

    Not only that - we're being asked to believe that Sam decided to not look for Dean right after he left the bldg. That doesn't make any sense. It's not even like Sam took a night or two to think about it. After Dean disappeared, he decided to move on w/his life in a span of a few minutes b/c we know he fixed up the Impala and drove around for a couple of months BEFORE he hit the dog.



    The story simply doesn't make sense. When did Sam determine Dean was dead? How long did it take him to decide to move on w/his life? A few minutes? 30 seconds? It's just been a bad story from the start.

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  171. lala2April 18, 2013 at 7:45 PM

    I think you don't see this much anger and frustration when Dean acts badly b/c Dean's actions are usually put in context.

    It is very rare that . . . actually, I can't recall a single time Dean did something and I had no clue why Dean did what he did. I understood why Dean tossed the amulet. I didn't like it, but I understood it. I understood why Dean was upset w/Sam in the S4 premiere. I understood why Dean sent Sam that fake text. I understood why Dean killed Amy. Dean is given ample opportunities to express himself and explain his feelings. Sam does not get those opportunities.

    To this day, I don't know when, why, or how Sam started drinking demon blood. I don't know how Sam feels - I mean really feels - about John's edict to Dean to KILL him if he turned evil. I don't know how or when Sam decided Dean was dead last season. There are many things I feel I don't know about Sam b/c the writers don't spend time on his emotional development. Sam just does stuff, and you have to figure out for yourself why he did whatever he did. That's not how it should be, IMO.

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  172. rehabberApril 18, 2013 at 7:46 PM

    It is still my favorite show and there have been several eps that I liked a lot..just have to not think about the hatchet job they have done on Sam this season. And am still hoping that will be redeemed before the end of the season, so this season will not be a total bust for me.

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  173. lala2April 18, 2013 at 7:49 PM

    I agree w/you about both brothers have the mytharc in Seasons 4 and 5.

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  174. chris684April 18, 2013 at 10:08 PM

    I won't argue that Dean's point of view is much more clearly shown most of the time. I think Amy might be the exception to that, though. I feel pretty confident on my opinion on why Dean killed Amy, but my opinion doesn't match up with what most people post on these boards. To me it was clearly an emotional response. He was reeling from feeling betrayed by Cas, was in an "everyone disappoints and everything turns bad" funk, and decided that Amy would only kill if gave her a second chance. There was no logic to why Amy had to die but Benny should live - it was all emotional - but most people don't see it my way.

    I also think Sam with the demon blood might be the exception to the Sam's pov not being portrayed. It took me a few rewatches (especially of season 3 and the later half of season 4), but I'm pretty comfortable with my interpretation of his motivations. He has a similar personality type to people who develop eating disorders. When a certain personality type, usually a straight A student who is always in control, feels they have no control over their life, they control what they can (their eating) to excess and become anorexic. Things were out of control in Sam's life at the time. He was a victim by demons and being pulled against his will toward a monster-destiny he didn't want. He couldn't stop his brother from going to Hell. Ruby tempted with an opportunity to get some power back (enough to fight their enemies and stop being a victim), and Sam being the compulsive personality type he is, lost control of this hunger for power. But with that said, I think this type of thoughtful development of Sam's character abruptly stopped mid season 5 - and I miss it.

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  175. JulianaApril 19, 2013 at 1:28 AM

    EXACTLY! It was just a poor premise and poor execution ALL AROUND! It makes no sense at al...

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  176. hlnkidApril 19, 2013 at 2:00 AM

    Yeah, you're gonna like 'em. They're addictive. The 2 most co-dependent brothers you'll ever see...Cal and Niko are. Never heard of the Morganville Vampire books. Might have to look into them though. Hadn't thought about books from half.com either. Interesting. Thanks for the tip!

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  177. rehabberApril 19, 2013 at 2:40 AM

    Do check out the Morganville books, they are very good and not your usually vampire books.

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  178. CyanaTApril 19, 2013 at 4:01 AM

    I agree... I was flabbergasted when Bobby told Sam "I taught you that agreement". WTF! Worse (though interested) their conversation more than implied that Sam at least suspected that Dean and Cas were zapped to Purgatory rather than "Sam thought Dean was dead so he didn't look." Carver can possibly salvage this fiasco by in a future episode Sam sitting Dean down and saying something like "I suspected you were in Purgatory and didn't know if you were dead or alive but I also remembered all the bad stuff that happened each time someone opened Purgatory. So I didn't try to save you. I'm very sorry".

    But that would require the writers to have Sam say more than ten words at time. I don't know purpose it serves either to bring up Sam's "inaction" in two recent episodes if Sam is not allowed to explain his decision process and he hasn't yet.

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  179. CyanaTApril 19, 2013 at 4:11 AM

    I agree...all Sam would have had to say is he tried and failed. But that didn't fit with Carver's vision of Sam not looking was the mature thing. ***IF*** Carver tried to have the fans associate "Sam's not trying to 'bring Dean back'" with the "lesson" Sam (finally) learned from The Trickster (Gabriel) in Mystery Spot it was way, way too subtle.

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  180. CyanaTApril 19, 2013 at 4:14 AM

    At this point, I'd except a "retcon", lol. The writers have been doing it all year, including Carver with his bogus "agreement".

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  181. rehabberApril 19, 2013 at 12:00 PM

    That was my thoughts also, why keep bringing it up if we are not going to find out why he did not look.

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  182. CyanaTApril 19, 2013 at 3:49 PM

    I read a reference to an "unused" scene in the premiere - maybe Sam did tell Dean a more sound reason "why he didn't look" in that alleged scene. But again and again - why bring "it" up recently *IF* the alleged scene in the premiere explained the "Why" in more detail and Carver really didn't know it was cut?

    And why the dance about Sam's not looking will come up again? Carver is no Kripke to pull off "I had you fooled, lol, lol, neener, neener, Sam tried to make deals, etc, etc, but changed his mind about because.... or he was whammied by angels/demons/leprechauns, blah, blah, blah"; for too many (online) fans "Sam's not looking" was a very hot button, and one easily "fixable" in the allotted episodes had he chosen to admit (bts, of course) he made a serious error in judgment.

    Robert Singer wanted a full year of Soulless Sam but "something/someones" changed his mind and the SS arc only ran for half a season. Eric Kripke got tired of the psychic kids sl so he killed them off, he also torched the Roadhouse and got rid of Jo for years. Sometimes showrunners have to concede when storylines just aren't working as intended ... these sls are alienating too many fans or are too otherwise problematic and either "fix them" (like getting Sam's soul back "early" or drop them (PKs/Jo/Roadhouse. NOT state baldly that the "not looking" emotionally affected both of them but it will come up again.

    I have a horror (lol) of the ghosts of John/Mary/Ellen/Jo/Rufus/Jess/Madison/Victor Hendriksen all appearing one by one to Sam and bashing Sam for not looking for Dean or making deals for Dean's resurrection.

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  183. Miss SupernaturalApril 20, 2013 at 1:30 AM

    Late, but thank you and Juliana for elaborate the issue. I totally agree with you both.

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