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BEST EPISODE EVER OR THE BEST EPISODE EVER?
ReplyDeleteSnow White just became the most interesting character in the show. Ill be damned on if she won't be the Dark One by the end of the season.
Because, seriously, WOW, Snow, you just topped Regina and CORA(of all people) both with one single action. THAT POKERFACE.
900000000000000/10
Dear OUAT writers,
ReplyDeleteI HATE YOU WITH A BURNING PASSION. I HATE YOU MORE THAN REGINA HATES SNOW WHITE NOW.
Sincerely,
an Evil Regal
It was AMAZING!
ReplyDeleteSnow isn't perfect tonight they showed us that! :)
ReplyDeleteyou know, i thought about Snow becomin' the new Dark One ,too...We do not have to forget that in the season finale they're going to make a travel to Neverland and i wonder why...besides, We will understand what's the price of the magic...and i think it's the purest heart turnin' into the darkest one...
ReplyDeleteAWESOME. Teared up when Rumple poured out his heart to Belle, and then the Bae/Rumple moment ;___; . Though Snow having to choose between Rum or Cora was obvious, if Gold had died the show would have just been about The Charmings, and let's face it, no one really wants that. The Evil Queen is back tho, and hating on Snow in full force again!
ReplyDeleteWhoa, that was intense! I loved it.
ReplyDeleteCora and Rumpel creeped me the hell out, tbh. I was not here for that, even though I knew it was coming. And hey, at least Regina isn't his daughter like some theorized!
The moment between Nealfire and Rumpel was adorable and a;lskdfjalskdjfadf.
Whoa, Snow! That was awesome.
Loved the moment between Cora and Regina at the end.
Oh my....what to say.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, this was an incredible episode every actor/actress did an amazing job. And I can't wait for the next episode.
Second, how I feel so sorry and emotional for Cora and Regina I did tear up when Regina held her dying mother in her hands, that scene was more sad to me than when Rumple (the evil imp manipulator of everything) and Belle talked on the phone. I can't even.....so sad and I can't wait for Regina to get revenge on Snow White.
LONG LIVE THE QUEEN!!!
Best episode of the season. Hands down.
ReplyDeleteExactly - not to mention - NONE of this would have happened had Rumple not created the Curse.
ReplyDeleteSo it makes sense that whatever Snow does is the price - its direct consequence of Rumple's actions.
It was good not great, still a lot of obvious flaws. Tiring of everyone is related to each other, like some kind of bad fantasy soap opera. But an improvement of the rest of the season so far. Not that hard to do though.
ReplyDeleteWell 2 am, I'm off too bed. :)
Even though the death predictable, Snow blew me away. And Rose killed it as Cora. I was on the edge of my seat until the end and I just wasn't predicting that twist with Regina giving Cora back her heart. Cora's smile at the end...oh my. It was like she was feeling love for the first time.
ReplyDeleteI didn't really think the EQ should have held a grudge over Snow telling Cora about Daniel -- that was Cora's evil...but THIS is Snow's evil -- EQ is gonna make her pay! #OUAT
ReplyDeleteRegina has been plotting and scheming and trying to murder Snow and everything she cares about since the start of the freaking show but the one time Snow retaliates (and feels fucking bad about it) the whole Evil Regal fandom screams bloody murder and demand payback. RIGHT.
ReplyDeleteApparently Cora killing Regina's boyfriend Daniel (right in front of her) does not count at all. But, a manipulated child who is tricked in to revealing a secret deserves revenge and misery. Makes TOTAL sense. ;-)
ReplyDeleteI'm still angry at a Regina stan who said it was "offensive" for us to say that Regina raped Graham. And I'm not buying that Kitsis (or was it Horowitz?) Tweet that she had his heart, but didn't use it for that.
ReplyDeleteExcuse me, but SHE HAD HIS HEART. At the very least, there's some serious consent issues there. She could control Graham! And he clearly wanted out at the end.
All Evil Regals? And what did you base that conclusion on? I haven't seen a single comment so far demanding payback at Snow.
ReplyDeletePersonally I blame Rumple. :P
But don't you see how that was TOTALLY Snow's fault? Who care's if she's a scared, motherless child who actually believe she's doing to her friend what she'd like someone to have done it for her (helping her keep her mother). Oh, who killed Snow's mother anyway? Yeah, let's all forget about that and hate on Snow because for once she decided to put her family first.
ReplyDeleteDo you really not understand the dynamic the writers have established between these three women?
ReplyDeleteThis episode was so amazing, kept me on the edge of my seat the entire hour! The acting was phenomenal!
ReplyDeleteI do find it hilarious that Regina can do ever evil thing known to man to everyone else, but as soon as someone does something in retaliation, it's all boo-hoo poor Regina. Well, I don't feel it! I can honestly say that I mumbled something along the lines of "Is it bad that I don't feel sorry for her?" I'm sorry, but Regina deserves to feel some of the pain that she's caused, and I for one am extremely happy that it was Cora that died. I couldn't stand that character any longer. She was never a likable character.
Gold's speeches at the end broke my heart and had me in tears... his phone call to Belle was so sweet, and his subsequent moment with Bae? It killed me. And maaaaaaan... Regina's going to have a thousand more reasons to hate Snow now. I figured Cora was going to be the one to die, but what bad timing.
ReplyDeleteSolid episode altogether. I definitely didn't expect Cora and Rumple to have such an... intimate... past.
I really loved the phone call, and Neal and Rumple after the call. So emotional.
ReplyDeleteI'm not surprised Snow did what she did, we've known that since Heart of Darkness that she's not perfect. Snow's mother during her childhood and her love for David as a woman is what kept her on the straight and narrow.
It's like Yin and Yang. Light in the dark, dark in the light. People are neither perfectly good or evil. At least Snow regretted what she did as soon as it was done.
Something I keep wondering about is the difference between Cora without a heart and Graham without a heart. Despite him missing it, Graham seemed to still have a lot of range of emotion and helped others, yet Cora was so cold to others feelings, only thinking of what she wanted for herself and her daughter.
Do visit the Once Upon A Time tag on Tumblr, you'll see what I'm talking about.
ReplyDeleteYou're right it wasn't fair for Regina to go after Snow for something she didn't really mean to do. I understand that. But now she has a reason to go after her but of course if Regina and every other character would focus their energy on the fact that it was Rumple who started everything and manipulated everyone including Snow, and would kill him then maybe everyone could finally come to their senses and stop fighting but of course all the Rumple fans would be up in arms over that. But that would also mean this show would end so I kind of hope the fighting doesn't come to an end anytime soon.
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed this episode a lot, but I swear if people start to dismiss Cora's crimes because she didn't have a heart, I'm going to go crazy. Regina could murder an innocent person in every single episode and people would still place the blame somewhere else. I can't imagine having to deal with that nonsense with Cora as well.
ReplyDeleteBut Snow's mother wouldn't be dead now if she was more considerate of others and not a self-righteous pompous spoiled princess. Now, I do feel sorry that Snow lost the mother she knew, the kind woman who taught Snow right from wrong.
ReplyDeleteYou're saying you were never rude, rebellious or done ill towards someone when you were a teenager? Because I knew I did and we don't know yet if Eva didn't apologize or tried to make emends with Cora when she became an adult.
ReplyDeleteWell alright then. That's an answer too, I guess.
ReplyDeleteThat is very true but I am going to try and relate this to a real world event. Do you remember the French Revolution, when the poor people of France basically over threw Marie Antoinette (no matter how fabulous I think she was) and the entire royal family? That is very similar to the story between Cora and Eva. Now me personally I can relate to Cora more because in real life for me especially during middle school and early high school years people were very very unkind, judgmental, sometimes abusive and bullies basically but I never retaliated although now I sometimes wish I had. I obviously don't mean I would kill them or anything like that but it would have been nice if I had stood up for myself once.
ReplyDeleteIt's Adam. Eddy doesn't tweet. Why not believe the creators? Maybe we'll learn next week how things are in Storybrooke under the curse, but I'd like to think most everyone has freewill. I'm skeptical about Regina and the Huntsman in FTL, but Graham could do anything he wanted.
ReplyDeleteToo excited to fall asleep - judging by Twitter trends and this poll's votes, the entire fandom is still abuzz and for a good reason!
ReplyDeleteI was just literally watching curled up in my seat with my hand over my mouth to keep from screaming, so many twists and awesome moments, and a few heartbreaking moments, so where do I even start...
Hot damn, Cora and Rumple! Who'd have thought these two would have so much chemistry! That spinning straw scene was...oh boy... And in that scene where they altered the deal, I believed it, but it was really clever how they turned it around by the end. It didn't annoy me so much, but it was not particularly believable that Cora chose to be queen over running away with Rumple simply because her father-in-law told her that love was weakness and/or she wanted to make the royals pay.
Snow - finally there'll be some interesting character development for her, can't wait to see where they go with this!
Rumple - I have a feeling they keep building him up just to bring him down in the finale, kind of like they did with Regina last season. As usual, the Titanic is sinking and everyone is drowning in the freezing water, only Rumple walks out dry... Anyway, they'd better have something in store for him because he finally has everything he's ever wanted (maybe apart from Belle) and there's always been someone else to pay the price - the entire population of Storybrooke and Lord knows how many more realms.
Regina - gosh... Yes, I KNOW she's evil, we've been told that over and over and over and over again and I've never denied the fact that she's done horrible things. But if your eyes were dry after watching Regina hold a dying Cora after returning her heart, then you have no soul. And when she turned to Gold, asking him what was going on, what was she going to do... ;( The scene reminded me too much of "The Stable Boy" and "The Doctor", and it was another reminder how much Regina has lost in her life...
Beautifully tragic, and a fitting Swan Song for Cora... "You would have been enough..." ;(
Well cut the people some slack then. :P After such an emotional episode, no wonder everyone is hypersensitive, you need to give it time to cool off. :P
ReplyDeleteDios mio el capitulo estuvo genial, no tengo palabras para decir cuanto me gusto, el final del capitulo estuvo buenÃsimo, ya se sabia que Cora morirÃa, regina ahora tendrá dos motivos para odiar a blanca nieves, i loved this episode it was so awesome xd
ReplyDeleteBecause she had his heart, which means she could control him, and ordered him to his bedchambers and threatened him if he didn't listen to her. There are some really iffy consent issues there.
ReplyDeleteAnd Graham may have been able to do anything he wanted in Storybrooke, but he was still under Regina's control since she still had his heart (which she used to murder him).
This is also a family show. They're not going to want to admit that one character raped another.
I have so many feels I don't know where to begin with my review so I won't review I'll just say that this episode was by far the best of the series so far it was that amazing.
ReplyDeleteIt was more Rumple's evil, to be precise. He pretty much played Snow just like he's played Regina before, and he's conveniently pitted them against each other again and left them to pay the price of his crimes. I wonder if the finale is about HIM finally paying the price. It should be, anyway.
ReplyDeleteThat's out of context. I've seen some tumblr posts saying it's offensive to accuse Regina of raping Graham, but refuse to acknowledge the fact that she was just as likely raped by Snow's father king Leopold. In other words, either accept that both are true - Regina raped and was raped - or accept the writers' explanation that neither happened (because it's a family show).
ReplyDeleteAnd honestly, why are always Regina fans the ones under attack?? It's getting ridiculous.
I can concede she could have been raped by Leopold, but we still don't have the full context of that marriage yet.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm not attacking all Regina fans. I'm just angry at the ones who seem to think she can do no wrong and accuse Snow of "painting herself as the victim all the time".
I can't wait for the big Regina/Snow showdown! But Regina has all the power (magical) and Snow has no wheapons like that... I wonder how they'll safe Snow from Regina. I hope they'll go the dark route with Snow the rest of the season, it would be awesome :) Maybe she'll be just heartless for some episodes or she'll even become the Dark One somehow other than murdering Rumple... the possibilities are endless! Can't wait for next week or at least some sneak peeks!
ReplyDeleteI hereby declared opened the "burn the town down, Regina" fandom. JFC, I just can't take the woman suffering anymore.
ReplyDeleteWord. I do think we'll never get a satisfying way to tie up the Graham issue unfortunately. I honestly believe that she kind of molded his personality so he'd be easy to seduce into her bed in Storybrooke world. I personally don't think she used his heart all the time to get him into her bed. It doesn't even make sense come to think of it. That being said Graham was still a victim of the situation, plus Regina did kill him. I don't think she should be forgiven for that crime with a snap of the fingers.
ReplyDeleteOtoh. She was forcefully married to a guy over twice her age (?) and no one can tell me she must've been happy sharing his bed-chambers.
Why are we even discussing/debating all this though, while Rumpelstiltskin once again walks away scot-free. That's whats starting to aggravate me. He hasn't exactly been mr nice guy this whole season. It's time for someone else to start to pay up. If rumpel hadn't brought magic to storybrooke cora and regina would've been powerless. Hell if Rumpelstiltskin hadn't manipulated events in the past in the first place there might not have been a curse, etc etc etc.
Why do ppl hate on regina or cora, or snow for that matter when it's obvious Rumpel has been orchestrating events for decades to fit his little scheme.
Your friendly reminder that once again Rumple got EXACTLY what he wanted, manipulated absolutely every single person he could and escaped scott free.
ReplyDeleteAnd Robert Carlyle killed every single scene in this episode. So did Rose McGowan. Even Rumbelle's have to admit, that scene when he taught her how to spin gold was just awesome.
All in all, it was an amazing episode. Cora died, which is very sad, since she was one hell of a character, but it truly was necessary. My only disappointment is Regina was still kept in the dark about her past, she didn't learn much more than what she already knew.
I won't even comment on the episode yet, but I am dreaming or Did Rumple and Cora TRULY love each other? That last scene was weird to me.
ReplyDeleteand What did Rumple say to Regina at the end?
ReplyDeleteFor someone who loved Cora, that SOB sure seemed cold as hell.
We don't have the full context? We know that Leopold was "a lonely man" and that instead of making Regina Snow's lady-in-waiting, he decided to get himself a beautiful young wife as a bonus. And he didn't really notice (or care) that Regina didn't accept his proposal and looked appalled when her mother consented on her behalf. And we know that he didn't care about Regina's happiness and although he wanted "all the people in his kingdom to be happy" he seemed content knowing that the queen was unhappy. And he kept Regina trapped in a loveless marriage but didn't even bother trying to love her because he was too wrapped up in the memories of his previous marriage. And he was also a jealous husband, keeping his queen locked in her own chambers, because he was too proud to be humiliated by being cheated on.
ReplyDeleteSo yeah, I'd say we've got enough context to infer Leopold's attitude toward Regina and what he might have done to her. After all, fans inferred Graham's "rape" from a single scene which lasted about a minute.
And you seem to be missing the point here - no one is denying Regina's crimes, but focusing on Regina's crimes alone and passing judgement only on her actions, while in the meantime all characters do similar things - that is hypocrisy and it is frustrating.
But I hope you realize that after doing this Snow has no right to pass judgement on Regina anymore - because she's become just like her. And it's very fitting that this is in episode 16 - in last season's episode 16 Charming managed to stop Snow from becoming a "Heart of Darkness", but we've seen this come full circle now.
And once again, I completely agree. :)
ReplyDeleteOkay, I can concede you definitely have a point about the Leopold/Regina marriage.
ReplyDeleteOh, definitely! What Snow did wasn't right, but she's put up with this for years and I can understand why she she snapped.
Guide to commenting on a OUaT comment section and getting upvoted:
ReplyDelete1) If you want to be upvoted, never EVER say anything bad about Regina. Even if she deserves those bad things being said. All of those people she murdered should feel blessed that they were slaughtered by such a wonderful woman. She gets the redemption equivalent of a participation trophy.
2) Every single evil character's sins no longer matter when they do one nice thing. The general rule is to ignore everything that happens before the nice thing, and start all over again on all the bad things until you get to the next nice thing. Rinse and repeat. Nobody should be held accountable for their actions. Don't even say they should. Trust me on that.
3) It's pretty much a rule that you complain about Charming in every other episode. He always does something or says something or merely exists in a way that people find irritating.
4) Hook is sleazy. Or sexist. Or an asshole. Or gross. Pick one or any combination of those things and put it in your post. It's a goldmine. Hook is supposed to be like Jack Sparrow.
5) Emma should be with every available guy, or with no guy at all. People seem to change their minds every few episodes. You might need to wait for others to post to see where they're leaning in the current episode. Oh, and Emma should never be with Hook. Don't even bring it up. Pretend that ship doesn't exist. Here on spoilertv especially, it doesn't. This is not the ship you're looking for.
6) If anyone says ANYTHING about the validity of Regina being a mother to Henry as well, then you side with her being his mother. People are so obsessed with this, that they can actually sense your denial of her claim before you say anything. This is related to the first rule and loosely related to the second. Regina is Henry's mother! If you don't believe it, smash your head against a wall and say "Regina is Henry's mother" over and over again until you do. It's a safer bet not to bring it up.
7) Pretty much anything about Rumple and Belle. They're precious.
8) Wonder why Henry is even on the show. This was more popular during the first season, but it still pops up every now and then.
9) If the Charming family interact in any way, they're the most adorable thing EVAR!
10) Above all else, you must adopt the belief that while people should have opinions, especially you, they should never have counter-opinions to your opinions. If they do, then you must leave a comment along the lines of "It's just my opinion" and completely ignore the fact that a counter-opinion is the exact same thing. Playing that card makes total sense. (It doesn't)
To start by answering your question - the only plausible explanation for me is that it's easier, more convenient, to vilify a female character. Modern society has a lot of history going back to the tale of Adam and Eve etc of blaming women, especially women who stand out and do not conform to the usual patriarchal hierarchy and rules. But that's a discussion for another day.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I doubt Regina would have needed to use Graham's heart to get him into bed. I mean, looks aside, give the woman some credit, for someone who seduced a genie into killing for her in no time, she ought to have a few tricks up her sleeve. :P
And I cannot stress enough how much I want to see Rumple finally start paying for his crimes, he's gotten away with far too much so far. The Charming's attitude toward him is also a very problematic issue for me, especially when contrasted with the way they've treated Regina.
I was hoping that Snow would become the dark one by the end of the episode, so kinda upset that that didn't happen. Pretty good episode, I'd put it in the upper half. It was really predictable though.
ReplyDeleteRose McGowan exhumed Cora perfectly. And I'm glad we're finally rid of Cora, honestly I never expected her to last this long. And to use her death as a catalyst for some hardcore vengeance from Regina is a good addition to the story. Regina's despair at the end was pretty sad, but I still can't help but think "now you know all the shit you've caused." Sure it sucks for her, but she's done things equally as bad.
Rumple's conversation with Belle and Bae were definitely the best scenes in my book. I hope he can be with Belle and that Bae will eventually forgive him.
Ok, quick question about episode .... Was the princess that Cora had to bow down to the same as Snow's mom? Both had the name Ava, but they looked like different actresses (and different ages).
ReplyDeleteTwo thumbs way way up! Absolutely agree with everything you say. And I like that you bring up the tale of Adam and Eve, because this also relates to a story I have heard about Adam and Lilith and yet another example of how the modern patriarchal society who have vilified some women especially the ones who stood out.
ReplyDeleteNo they did not. If they did Rumple's curse would have started breaking when they kissed, like it did when he kissed Belle.
ReplyDeletePlease. Marriage contracts and holding someone hostage to your will by owning their hearts are completely different things. While modern society may account such a thing as spousal rape, they certainly didn't then. She didn't marry for love she had a duty and that duty included the bedroom and she got money, privilege and position for it.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention that even if you believe that was a valid argument, it isn't a valid reason to do something like that to someone else--it's actually even worse because she should personally understand the damage and pain she was causing.
Regina fans are disagreed with frequently because they frequently say things that people disagree with--like that she isn't a bad person and that she hasn't done wrong and that she has a leg to stand on wanting revenge on Snow.
Oh, I definitely understand why Snow snapped, just as well as I understand why Regina snapped after Daniel's death, and after Rumple/Jefferson/Frankenstein's manipulations, and after Cora's manipulations in Storybrooke. And I love that there are now even more parallels between Regina and Snow than there were before. I think it's very natural character development for Snow and I'm more interested in her character now than I've ever been before.
ReplyDeleteI also hope that the fandom will realise that each of the characters is trying to find his/her own happiness at the expense of all the rest, so good/evil is just a matter of the point of view.
"Just like her"??? Are you kidding me? Cora killed her mother and Johanna just last week and threatened to attain whatever power necessary to destroy her and everyone she loved not to mention all of her past crimes, that's not becoming the same as Regina. That's protecting the greater good and getting some modicum of justice. Seriously different. One death, hundreds of deaths, not equal.
ReplyDeleteI wonder the same about the heart, since kissing Emma for Graham was considered true love's kiss and made him remember his life before the curse.. How could it have been true love if he didn't have his heart?
ReplyDeleteI think so, and I think that is why Cora hated Snow's mom. Yes Ava was a teenager, but Cora was also played by a younger actress. Also when she was talking to dead Ava last week, Cora said something about being the miller's daughter.
ReplyDeleteWell, I'm not entirely sure tbh.
ReplyDeleteIt seemed pretty clear that they loved each other
ReplyDeleteI am torn over the idea of Emma being Graham's true love. I'm not completely sure of that. It's possible it's because she was the savior that he remembered.
ReplyDeleteStill, even if it wasn't true love, I still think he had some pretty deep emotions for someone who technically wasn't supposed to care, if that is the exact effect of the heart being torn out.
What Snow White did was the most evil act ever committed on OUAT , she didn,t just kill Cora she tricked
ReplyDeleteRegina into killing her own mother and the guilt Regina will feel will be unending.
There can only be one true love, but everyone can have more than one person they loved.
ReplyDeleteSo I believe they did love each other on some level but it was not true love so she wouldn't have ever been able to break his curse by a kiss anyways.
Wow now we have Dark snow! But it was Regina who I feel for. She only wanted her mother's love.
ReplyDeleteYes they are the same person. That is why Cora hated her.
ReplyDeleteBut Cora craved Power more than Love.
ReplyDeleteNo I think is whether Magic is involved or not. In Graham's case there was no magic involved so he still acted the same. Cora on the other hand allowed magic to rule her. One thing we know for a fact is all magic comes with a price. Cora's was death by her own daughter!
ReplyDeleteI was bullied in school as well (I think because they thought I had things better than them because of my Dad's job and I could be targeted more easily - I was independent, quiet, and I liked only having a few close friends and because I didn't have friends in every class I took, I was open to attack).
ReplyDeleteI found other ways following the rules to get them to stop though. I did consider at times getting payback but I resisted. Except for one time, when I pushed a bully against a wall once, and regretted it immediately. And not because I knew I could get into trouble with a teacher, but because I knew it was wrong, and it felt wrong for me to do so. But I wasn't thinking straight in the moment. (It got her to stop mind you, but I never accepted what I did as being the only way let alone the right way).
So while I can relate to Cora being looked down on by someone else, the feeling of it on some level, I can also relate to Snow reacting and doing something she immediately regretted.
It is well heard of that the victim often becomes the next bully, as heavily seen on this show. But plenty of other victims of bullying resist their "dark" side, and when they find themselves committing an act a bully would do, it weighs down on them - they regret it.
Going back to the Yin/Yang reference I made earlier, what separates "good" and "evil" in this show, to me, is whether someone resists their dark side or relishes it.
It's more complex for Regina and Rumple than Cora because they never tore out their hearts and both tried to be better people for the sake of loved ones. They could change someday and be better people. Doesn't mean they can be forgiven, but I do like them when they're being good.
Back to the bully analogy, there is 1 bully out of the 3 I knew at my school, that I ended up being okay with. We never became friends, but she stopped and actually reached out to me in a subtle way out of the blue. Then a year after, she even defended me against another bully (a guy), telling a teacher what had been done, backing me up with the proof I needed for the teacher to believe me. After that, I was never sure where we stood because sometimes she still seemed to want to bring me down. She never said anything to me again, but my friends heard gossip.
Point of that was people can change. How much Regina and Rumple can change, will depend on their will. How much they want to be good. Though it will be tough for them because if they go good, it will be for the sake of others.
Going "evil" tends to be a selfish act (getting revenge is selfish as it's not really for the person revenge is yearned for, it's for the person who is doing the avenging), so to me, going from evil to good is harder than going good to evil, even temporarily.
It's so easy for someone considered good, like Snow, to go bad because all it takes is one moment of blind anger to do something wrong. Meanwhile, going good takes lots of will-power as Regina discovered.
I'm not sure Regina isn't Rumple's daughter after all... But totally agree with you, this was an awesome episode!
ReplyDeleteIf Rumple and Cora really were in love, why didn't their kiss break his curse?
ReplyDeletewow snow! I pretty much guessed she will kill cora, which personaly I find it just, of coz snow or anyone should kill her, that wouldn't seem to be a very bad act to me. but this show never fails to surprise, who would've thought snow white tricked the evil queen to kill her own mother, the speech snow said to regina is so utter evil then any other killing on the show. You know if the evil queen or rumple tell you to do sth, they are manipulating you, who ever fall for that is just stupid, but snow white? you always believe her words because that's who she is, always do the right thing, be honest with everyone!
ReplyDeleteRegina was wrong to blame snow for daniel's death, she would be also wrong to blame snow for cora's death becasue cora deserves that, but she is definitely justify to get revenge on snow because snow tricked her to kill her mother with her own hand! The battle between evil and good doesn't seem so black and (snow) white now.
Wonder what Henry would think about that.
A quick note: after watching the promo, regina threaten to kill snow and everyone inculding Henry is scared, I have a feeling that Henry would just think "killing for revenge is wrong, Regina is always evil!" and completely ignore the fact of what snow did. He just have to believe in the "good guys". Or maybe everyone hide the truth from Henry? that could be more interesting. since Henry is now angry with Emma for lying, maybe if he finds out that everyone one of the "good guys" are lying, he'll be on regina's side for once?
ReplyDeleteThat scene where Snow held her head on the steeps of the mausoleum, thinking about what she had done, was just perfection.
ReplyDeleteWhat have I done? What have I done?
It's was beyond morality, it was about loosing yourself. You could see Snow's descent to madness through the episode highligting as she ever so creepily recited Cora's name over the candle. It was about breaking Snow White and marring everything that makes her, her. To see the virtuous betray there tenents for what they think must be done, It's not about good or evil but about darkness, a more pernicious dliemma where the evil is born of a desire for good.
I'm still reeling.
But as Snow becomes so intricately complex, Regina becomes with each day more eyeroll worthy. I'm just so tired of her; of her self pity and violent narcissism, of her desire to be loved yet her inability to feel empathy for others, of her weakness and manipulable nature. I realized that is not the act of flipping sides what makes me dislike her, but that she does it out of weakness to see her choices through.
Snow should feel bad about her actions, regardless of Regina's. Take Regina out of the equation and just focus on Snow, she has to work this out and get out of that dark place.
ReplyDeleteAnd so, Regardless of my previous statements, I completely agree that there are some Evil Regals that are just batshit insane.
It wasn't true love. There's more than one kind.
ReplyDeleteDid NOT expect that! Snow didn't just facilitated the death of Cora she totally manipulated Regina in the process. Well, at least this time Regina has reason to direct her wrath at Snow White.
ReplyDeleteRose McGowen's make up was distracting. Did not buy Rumpelstiltskin really being in love with Cora in fairytale land.
Loved Rumpelstiltskin's phone call to Belle and the moment with Bae that followed. Loved expression on Cora's when she got her heart back. That look Regina's always wanted to see.
Take it easy fella, it was good, but why all the fuss? What is there to process? It is simply cause and effect. Cora killed Snow's nanny, Snow decided to finally get off her high horse, ease up on her 'clean hands' syndrome and do something that is not egoistical. So Cora is dead, that is the effect. Regina will hate Snow. Snow will feel annoyingly sorry for herself. What did I miss? Oh, yeah, Ruple is alive. Quelle shocker.
ReplyDeleteI rewatched some scenes and I fear you might be right... Because we didn't see Rumple actually hold baby!Regina as he told her he had in 2x02. Which means that there should be more Rumple/Cora/baby!Regina flashbacks (and on that note, way!), so it is possible for Regina to be his daughter after all. :( But no, just don't do this to me, show, it's too painful. :(
ReplyDeleteNot a "fella". A woman.
ReplyDeleteWhy bother telling me to "take it easy", when you don't even bother to analyse the characters and the story beyond (some of) the obvious facts?
I, for one, enjoy exploring the different layers of the characters and their motives, finding interesting parallels and looking at art with a more sceptical eye. This show happens to be one of the things I am quite passionate about - if you don't see the point, then clearly we're different kinds of people.
But speaking of cause and effect, Snow's actions may have been the direct cause, the causa causans, but none of it would have happened if it weren't for Gold/Rumple (which makes his schemes the causa sine qua non).
And once again, I completely agree with you. :-)
ReplyDeleteI love that they had the guts to go there with Snow, that made this episode. That sweet, innocent Snow White could have it in her to be as manipulative and cold as to put on that act, and use Regina's longing for Cora's love to make Regina facilitate her own mother's death... was brilliant. They should keep playing with those shades of light and dark in the characters.
ReplyDeleteIt was the best episode in a long time.
ReplyDeleteGreat episode. Snow manipulating Regina into killing her mom was brilliantly evil, yet somewhat justified given everything Regina and Cora had done. However, I still wouldn't have expected that from Snow, and as expected, she immediately hated herself for what she did. Plus, I'm guessing that Regina's wrath will be far worse than anything Cora was trying to do (I suppose it's probably too late for Regina to understand the meaning of Karma ). Regina's happiness at seeing her mom's expression of love was heartbreaking and probably the first time I ever really felt sorry for her. Plus, I knew that at some point, we would a background story about Cora that would make us feel some sympathy for her.
ReplyDeletePersonally I think that Rumple and Regina are equally evil and equally selfish. I'm not very sympathetic towards either character (although I think they make great villains!).....I don't get all the Rumple/Belle shipping....Belle deserves better, and I really wish Regina would stop playing the victim. The irony is that a lot of Regina fans dislike Snow and consider Snow to be extremely hypocritical (even before this episode)...wouldn't that be a better example of over-villifying a female character?
ReplyDeleteShe can't be. If she was, Rumple would own her. Cora changed the deal so she would only be forced to give him his OWN child (which means they would have a child together). However, she never ran away with him and they never had such child, which is why he is not entitled to Regina. When he comes back in 2x02 and says to Regina "we belong together" [or something like that], he is referring to his first deal with Cora, the one in which he would simply get her firstborn. If this wasn't the case, why would he wait 18 years to collect what was rightfully his?
ReplyDeleteIn place of snow I probably would have ordered Core there and finished her off myself.
ReplyDeleteBut I guess, that would have been too logical and less dramatic.
I guess they can consider it even now, and move on. (Probably won't happen though. :) )
Such a heavy episode! I love the backstory! Rose played psychopathic attention whore very well. Seriously. Rumple's phone call with Belle almost made me cry. And I really thought that Snow cancelled her evil plan, but she kept on. That's the only thing that bothered me. Don't you guys think it's time for the Regina-Snow feud to end? It's time for a new villain. I just wished that Snow opted out of killing Cora and just let Regina do it instead. But the rest of the episode was awesome.
ReplyDeleteBah... Like Regina didn't exploit their emotions.
ReplyDeletePlus she just wanted to get rid of the menace that is Cora and her goal wasn't to make others miserable for eternity, like Regina's are usually.
The backstory was great, it was like one of the best so far. But still, that didn't make me feel sympathy for her. She wanted to kill the king just because she was humiliated. Imagine being Snow, her mom was killed, she was separated from her daughter, went through various separation periods with David, cast out from her own castle, etc etc and she still didn't turn psycho as easily as Cora. But the backstory was captivating.
ReplyDeleteThey could have made another deal. But I think they have no desire to make Regina his child, but are toying with the viewers and that's why it wasn't clearly shown that she isn't his daughter. Same as they did with the hints in this season.
ReplyDeleteIt was well deserved. Plus, on the upside she got rid of her poisonous influence.
ReplyDeleteThe most evil act? How so?
ReplyDeleteWhich is why I get downboted a lot. But then, I don't care.
ReplyDeleteI would say that because she very purposely used someone's abuse and subsequent desperate desire for love to trick them into doing something they thought was a good thing but she had already set up to be murder.
ReplyDeleteRight?! Everyone was so amazing in this episode.
ReplyDeleteRumple's misogyny always works out for him. He puts the Queens on the board, he orchestrates when they fall to his plans.
It wasn't true love's kiss.
ReplyDeleteBecause just because they're the creators doesn't mean they fully understand the consequences of what they've written.
ReplyDeleteI do love that he manipulated Snow into killing Cora by saying he was Henry's grandfather. Even though Cora is Henry's grandmother.
ReplyDeleteI have never cried watching this show until last night. RC your performance was a knockout. Your scene on the phone with Belle your scene with Bae..my hats off to all 3 actors. It was wonderfully moving and I will even throw Emma into it since she witnessed your humanity for perhaps the first time. It moved me to a full blown five tissue event. Even my husband cried.....I will also add that young Cora's scenes were excellent as well.......The scene at the Spinning Wheel was very intense....kudos to the writers. Thank you Gold,Belle,Bae,Emma, and young Cora. This episode was the very best.
ReplyDeleteI just love these judgy posts about an entire fanbase.
ReplyDeleteI am pretty much convinced Snow will become the dark one by the end of the season. Way too many parallels between her, Regina and Rumple so far, for it to NOT be the case.
ReplyDeleteWhat Snow did now is similar thematically to:
- Regina pushing her mother into the mirror and then regretting it.
- Rumple killing previous dark one and then regretting it.
Its the "first step" and of course then comes regret, but then those choices are far easier to make for characters like that.
Oh, I know. I'm a writer and know that things can come off in a way that was unintended. The cool thing for them, though, is that they are TPTB and can readdress the issue in a future episode to tell the audience that that's not what they meant. Saying it on Twitter or in interviews doesn't make it less valid.
ReplyDeleteActually, EP Edward Kitsis said in an interview with HuffPost TV that Regina is not Rumpel's daughter. He said, "He's definitely not her father, but he has been a father-figure to her in a most corruptible way,"
ReplyDeleteI think that's exactly what makes it less valid, actually.
ReplyDeleteI simply selected Awesome. It was definitely one of the few strongest episodes this season even though I already predicted who's dying before watching this episode - it was pretty obvious. But I love the way it was written and planned out. I was so glad that Regina has made the right choice and oh how awful to see her happiness - the lovely moment with her mother was quickly cut short. The part where she said "Don't leave me please" was movingly sad. Hope the rest of the season will be good as this one.
ReplyDeleteI guess I mean canon? I know everyone has their own definition of canon, but I'd like to think that if a creator saying something outside of their art, then that thing is canon (like Dumbledore is gay, even though that wasn't in the book). So if Adam says something didn't happen even though it came off that way, then I believe him. I would like to not assume the worst anyway.
ReplyDeleteIt's pretty tough though because it means that they wrote it so badly to start with.
ReplyDeleteYeah. :/
ReplyDeleteAs much as I love this show and think they have an overall plan for every thing they've written, they didn't think this one through. There is still a lot of good writing. It's nice to see so many people passionate about the show to discuss all it's issues though.
Yes, but they are not being compared in relation to the crimes they've committed but in relation to the idea of goodness. Before that, Snow believed taking someone's life, for whatever reason, is evil. Killing for the greater good is evil too like war for peace. And as much as I, personally, think Cora and Regina had it coming, I also think Snow has no right to impose "last chances" on Regina anymore because she overstepped the line and her actions are on the same gray moral scale as some of Regina's actions are.
ReplyDeleteThey don't think much through, that's pretty clear. Other than Regina they've shown two other relationships containing rape that aren't acknowledged as well. Plus they don't seem to notice the racism or sexism or that the dwarves were slaves and the fairies their oppressors.
ReplyDeleteNope. They're not blood related.
ReplyDeleteHAHAHA! That's funny!
ReplyDeleteHe offered her an option. No "playing" at all, she pretty much wanted Cora gone... She also could have just crushed Cora's heart or control her as she said so.
ReplyDeleteSo the ruling class doesn't have the "right" to pass judgment? Who does? Perhaps a court of her peers who tried to lynch her for all the things she's done to the towns people? Someone is in charge and those popularly defended leaders are the Charmings. Time and time again, Snow has stood between Regina and justice or just revenge (from the kingdom in FTL or from Rumple in Storybrooke). The last chance is Snow personally vowing to not stop the continuous onslaught of people trying to enact justice on a woman who has done so very much wrong.
ReplyDeleteI think the writers have made a muddy mess of good and evil. Charming can kill but Snow can't? Seriously? That makes no sense, what were they even trying to say there? Everybody agreed Cora needed to die, but just not that Snow could kill her. I don't think Snow crossed any line that puts her in league with Regina. Cora slaughtered all those people in FTL just to get at her--that's death penalty right there. Calling it revenge instead of justice is just the writers trying to make a plot out of a disastrous hole they created. Good should be able to FIGHT BACK.
Reallly? It's a fact though.
ReplyDeleteOh. You were serious.
ReplyDeleteGrandparents are the parents of a child's parents. Regina is Henry's mother. Thus Cora is Henry's grandmother.
That's it.
The only real mother is the biological mother. Cora's just the adoptive mothers parent. So no, not grandmother. If you insinst on bending the meaning of grandmother than you could call her the adoptive-grandmother.
ReplyDeleteAlso he doesn't like Regina that much. And no-one likes Cora outside Regina.
You're just trolling now, right?
ReplyDeleteA+++.Rose McGowan was spectacular!!
ReplyDeleteNope. It's just reality. You can believe what you want though. Also people tend to have some extra respect for actual kinship.
ReplyDeleteAnd the last part is just obvious about Cora.
lol "reality". Oh, okay. HAHA.
ReplyDeleteI know they do, which is why Once is quite the travesty of anti-adoption sentiment since Emma has zero parental rights.
So what did Regina do to deserve being abused for decades and forced into an abusive marriage?
ReplyDeleteWhy do you just keep fixating on legal rights that no-one cares about in Storybrooke?
ReplyDeleteThis anti-adoption delusion from people is just plain silly. Regina is the friggin Evil Queen. A tad homicidal...
Almost the same for king George. Except David wasn't actually adopted, but was forced to take over a role.
Well that only proves my point that Cora deserved to die. I meant that she deserves to feel the pain she's caused...since she started to cause pain. You know, like killing Snow's dad, trying to kill Snow multiple times, keeping Snow and Charming separated at any costs, killing her own father for revenge purposes, enacting a curse that separated Emma from her family, killing Graham...I can keep going if you'd like? Regina's list of indiscretions is way longer than Snow's. All I'm saying is that it's about time that Regina realizes the pain that she has put other's through. It is only fair, seeing how Regina wants to put any and all pain or unhappiness she feels on everyone but herself, when Regina is the source of all of her own unhappiness. Until she comes to terms with that, then she will never be able to truly be happy.
ReplyDeleteBut all that proves is that blood begets blood especially since Regina is NOT the source of her own unhappiness. Part of it, sure, but not the source.
ReplyDeleteOkay, so no legal rights then. Regina IS Henry's mother and Emma is nothing. There. No legal rights mentioned, just facts.
ReplyDeleteCharming was saying that Snow shouldn't kill Cora, because Snow's heart is pure. Killing another for revenge purposes or out of hate will cloud her pure heart and Snow's idenitity will be lost to her until she figures out how to make her heart pure again. Ginnifer Goodwin explained it best in a post-Paleyfest interview with Matt Mittovich, that he recently posted on TVLine. It's a good read, and she gives insight into why Charming didn't want Snow to do the actual killing, and what it means for the rest of the season.
ReplyDeleteRegina's actions crossed the "gray moral scale" long ago. Regina has an entire vault full of hearts... She has killed people... Regina is almost to the point of no return on the "Moral Scale", and Cora had no moral's at all. I don't fault Snow for wanting to kill Cora, and actually doing it, since Cora was actually the cause of all of Snow's pain. The difference is that Regina blames Snow for something that was "Indirectly" her fault, she was a child that didn't know any better, where as the blame for Daniel's death lay directly at her mother's feet. Instead of blaming the guilty party though, Regina took it out on a poor child. At least Snow had the good sense to go after the one person that has caused her grief.
ReplyDeleteI do agree with your point on the Leopold/Regina marriage. However, I couldn't disagree with you last point more. Snow has no right to pass judgement? I beg to differ. Regina has made Snow's life a living hell for how long now? The woman framed her for murder for heaven sakes, that alone is enough to pass judgement, not to mention how many times Regina has attempted to kill Snow. The fact that she seperated a child from her family? Let us not forget the fact that she killed Graham in cold blood because he didn't "want her" anymore. Regina has done so much bad stuff in her life that she deserves to feel the pain that she has caused everyone else. Snow killing Cora was completely justified, and are we forgetting that she regretted the decision immediately after making it? When has Regina ever regretted anything that she has ever done?
ReplyDeleteHow is she not the source of her own unhappiness? All she has ever done since Daniel's death is seek revenge on someone who didn't deserve it? Only when she is able to come to terms with the fact that she has been punishing the wrong person will she be able to truly be happy. That reason right there is why Regina is so unhappy because she lives her life for revenge. I'm sorry, but Regina can't even realize when people do try to help her. Snow has given her chances to prove that she has changed, Emma has given her chances to prove she has changed, and she squanders it all away to join up with the woman who is actually the person that she should blame for her unhappiness? Regina gets in her own way of happiness, and that is NO ONE'S fault but her own. I have never been a fan of her character, but seeing her frail attempt at redemption, just made me dislike her more. She is in no way shape or form in any position for redemption right now, and won't be until she comes to terms with everything she has done and apologizes for it. She needs to make amends for everything, until then I will stick by my opinion. As long as she causes pain, she deserves to feel pain.
ReplyDeleteRevenge obviously wasn't going to make her happy. But neither is being in an abusive relationships and that was where she was.
ReplyDeleteYes, but that was HER choice to marry Snow's father. She had exiled her mother from their realm BEFORE she married Leopold. So could have backed out of the wedding, but she didn't because she wanted to get revenge on Snow White. So then again, created her own unhappiness.
ReplyDeleteOh this again. So, exactly how does a teenage girl back out of a marriage to the much-older king then without being killed for it? Or how does being terrorized and abused and gaslighted into it by everyone she knows imply consent when all she said and did was try to escape?
ReplyDeleteWell first of all, when exactly did they say that Regina was a teenager at that point? Cos I certainly don't remember that. Second of all, the only person that "terrorized" her into marrying Leopold was her mother, who she had already sent away. She had almost escaped once with Cora still there, so why couldn't she have done it again? Leopold didn't exactly strike me as the "Hunt Her Down, and Kill Her" type to me. Pretty sure that your judgement is clouded due to "Saint Regina Syndrome" because if Regina REALLY didn't want to marry Leopold, she would have found a way out of it. So, no...still her own fault.
ReplyDeleteSame way we know Rumple is 300+, we were told off-screen. But you can also extrapolate because Regina is only in her early 30s and she was married for more than 10 years to Leopold.
ReplyDeleteSo he doesn't seem like that, except for the thought of Regina even looking at another man had him getting aggressive and possessive? He didn't care about consent, he didn't care that she was only a handful of years older than Snow, he didn't respect boundaries, didn't care she was unhappy, and got aggressive at the idea of him escaping his possession.
I'd say you were suffering from Demon Regina Syndrome where she is responsible for everything. Just how is a teenage girl with no means, no money and no allies supposed to go?
EVIL ACT???? She is acting like a leader and made a decision that saved-Emma, Bae, Charming, and who knows who else. Because she saved their lives-she saved other people such as the town people, and Henry from being raised by evil. They would have erased his memory of Emma. She is evil. It is tough to be a queen/leader. Doing the right thing is rough. When she chose not to save her mother Eva with the candle- that was the right choice. Because she would have to have sacrificed a innocent person. BUT Cora is not innocent and EVIL. The best part of her death was right before she died-SHE HAD A HEART AND remembered that all she ever really needed was just her daughter. Listen to what she says before she died. So she was restored in her heart. She had to die and Snow did the right thing. But perhaps it would have been better if she had stucked the heart in Cora's body instead of Regina, BUT because Regina showed and could have used magic to take the heart from Snow, well Snow white had to act quickly and tricked Regina into inserting the heart into her MOM. Bout time, Snow White act like a leader and make the right choice.
ReplyDeleteI think it depends on the person. Regina still has her heart, but she is evil. But Regina did take her mother out, or at least she thought she did. Because her mom was a weakness for her. And Cora's heart was her weakness. That was why Cora ripped out her own heart. Graham's heart was not a weakness. So it didn't matter if he had his heart or not. Regina super evil for killing him just because he didnt love her. Regina evil doesnt matter why. She can change. And she can't seem to want to change. She is too bitter.
ReplyDeleteSorry, but SNOW acted like a leader and Cora HAD TO DIE. She is evil and since the episode revealed to use that CORA was about to kILL EVERYONE!!! I guess Snow should not have acted. YOU know sometimes it sucks that life is like that, When Snow could have saved her mom-she didnt. That was the right choice. Why would Snow destroy an innocent life. BUT when she had the choice to KILL Cora becuase CORA was gonna people and once CORA killed the Charming Family and erased Henry's memory, she would ruin the towns people and most likely kill quite a few of the for not agreeing with her. And SNOW had to use Regina because she walked in on Snow with the heart in her hands. Yeah SNOW acted quickly and like a leader and did what she had because REgina would have used magic to stop Snow and then Cora would have become the dark one and killed all kinds of people. It was awesome. Because it showed how unselfish Snow is. When Snow could have done to save her mom, she didnt. But when it was to save MANY lives and it was to destroy an EVIL person, she made the right choice. WAY TO GO>
ReplyDeleteRegina was also tempted/influenced/manipulated by Rumple (again) to stay on as the Queen and practice magic after she had pushed her mother into the mirror. That's what I remember anyway but I could be wrong.
ReplyDeleteIf you think tricking someone into murdering a mother that they love is being a leader and the
ReplyDeleteright choice you are a psychopath. it Is one thing to kill Cora herself but to trick her daughter into doing it was evil, I have never defended Regina or Cora's actions and I won't defend Snows.
Okay, so maybe she was barely a teenager (I'd put her at least at 18 or 19).
ReplyDeleteThat was after they were married, if she left before they were married he'd have no right to her. at the very least she would be running for her life like she made Snow do?
Really? Where is a teenage girl supposed to go? Perhaps you should think about what she did to Snow while you ask that question. I am blaming Regina for EVERYTHING, I am blaming Regina for what she has done, which is fair. Regina is NOT a good person. She used to be, but through her mother's manipulation and at the very least, Rumple's manipulation and her own choice's, she lost just about every ounce of good that was inside of her.
Snow had to fend for herself on her own, in the forest, when she was a teenager. She survived, and she had a vindictive, evil witch trying to condemn her to death after her. So, all I'm saying is that if Snow could survive that, Regina could have made an escape as well!
That's true, but again, that was her choice. She chose to marry Leopold and learn magic. That's the point I'm trying to make. Through her own series of choices, Regina has blocked her own path to happiness. She made her own bed, and now she has to lie in it. I think it's only fair for her to suffer at least somewhat, for all the grief and pain she has caused others. At the very least you can call Snow killing Cora "an eye for an eye" because Regina killed Snow's father.
ReplyDeleteYour situation might have been much easier than mine (I assume) because the "adults" that were supposed to defend /help were actually bullies as well. And as far as the bullies (I'm not just talking about two or three people) they seem to not show any regret because I've been told they still hold up to their beliefs, mannerisms, opinions and actions. I have moved passed this time in my life which occurred almost five years ago, because there is nothing I can do about the past. I have learned from it and if I had to relive it I would have been very different and handled things very differently. I have learned to not be a push over and stand up for myself and I would say I am fair and somewhat polite to people now but not too overtly nice and kind.
ReplyDeleteI think what Snow did, although I did like Cora and did feel sorry for her somewhat, was very much the "right" thing to do. Because it proves my point of what I have been saying since the beginning that there is no such thing as good vs. evil but neutral people who work towards their own agendas. I would say it is very similar to what Cora said in that there is no good and evil but only power. But love is a form of power and this form of power has many examples of strength within this show. However in reality love and kindness do not always win. I can think of many examples historically and currently where love fails. But also I could think of many examples where love conquers all. So really everything is a big ball of confusion when you start to dissect every little detail.
I agree I think it's still up for debate!
ReplyDeleteAnother really fantastic episode Snow White almost became The Dark One and tragically Cora dies, as we Snow White's mother in a dark light as well and how to some degree, Cora deserved to prove herself (And boy King Henry's father seems like a jerk!) Loved all of Gold/Rumple's scenes tonight! Emma and Neal together were also pretty hysterical and Snow is crossing some lines! :D
ReplyDeleteReading through the comments I see everyone has said the things that I thought too! It's shaping up to be a very good season! Looking forward to next weeks flashbacks!
I will agree with you on the idea that killing Cora was "an eye for an eye." That is very understandable. And yes Regina did make a choice but it was a seductive choice. But Regina has somewhat blocked her own path to happiness. She did make choices sometimes on her own, sometimes because she was manipulated, sometimes based on others actions and sometimes because she was tricked. I think she has suffered and will suffer more of course that much is certain. But I still wish she would win however much that is impossible in the end. In my point of view, Regina has four options kill, be killed, remove herself from the situation entirely by packing her bags getting out of Storybrooke and starting over or she could forget the past and try to make things work out with Henry and his family. However I do not see Regina choosing the last two options so the first two are more comprehensible.
ReplyDeleteWell I think because it's on network TV and because it's geared at being more of a family show, they can't be hell bent about addressing these things and honestly I think it's all done in way where we the viewers have to decide, because we are not all going to agree on where we draw our ethical lines.
ReplyDeleteThe Dwarf argument of slavery for instance is a valid point, however there might be a "physical" point (like if the dust is not made and fairy's don't use it for whatever they use it for, then maybe there can be know goodness or something. Kind of like we can't have crops with out farming kind of thing, so we inevitably might need farmers) and a spiritual point that we all have roles to play if we want to get to "a better place". (Something like Hinduism where we are placed in certain roles for a reason). -But you're right, perhaps there should be a moral here about "having a choice", which is kind of what they did with the juxtaposition of Anton the Giant by allowing him to become a dwarf. (so this might be a sign of "progress" being made)
I think they have outlines for where they want to go, but like many shows it's figuring out how to get there and in relation to what the Network wants them to do that's the issue. Personally I see threads created at the beginning of the season and even last season that are turning into more substantial things now, as opposed to random things. It's all starting to accumulate in a more interrelated way.
Being an adopted child who has never met my biological parents, I would like to point out that isn't true. My grandparents (my mother's parents) actually live next door and I am very close to them.If something were to of happened to my adopted parents as a child, they were next to be my legal gardians.."Legally" (assuming Emma hasn't filed any paperwork), Regina and her biological family are his guardians and can be considered family...
ReplyDeleteHowever, I agree with you that she isn't much of a grandparent in terms of her role since she wasn't in Henry's life at all.
I would disagree with you about Cora as well. She has been made to be this colossal villain of season 2, clearly being a source of much pain and manipulation over both Regina and Snow, but like ALL other characters (except Mother Superior/Blue Fairy), she is just as human and a bit of a victim as the rest of them, as we see Snow White's mother, Eva, was unkind for some reason in this flashback and now we see that there is this long history there between these women and perhaps even King Henry stuck in the middle of it, just as Henry jr. is.
Cora surely needed to go, because she stopped at nothing for her "blood lust" of power, but that doesn't mean it wasn't at all sad or that there wasn't any justification in wanting to prove herself more than common peasant. The fact that Rumple needed to know if she ever loved him, was proof that he himself once also cared for her, but just could never trust her. Really it's Rumple who is the biggest manipulator and responsible for helping everyone surcome to their often dark paths, but it might not matter, because it's all fate and it might all lead to 'a better place'...But if you're going to blame someone you might want to start with him and the origins behind "The Dark One" and the dark magic...
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Wow. What a pitiful mess people have become. Seeing rape, sexism, racism everywhere. This pseudoethical crap is appalling. Looks like idiotic trends of support groups, activists, etc. have reached the common folk. Fighting pointless/worthless causes, complaining about delusional perceptions of issues that aren't there. Projecting things that aren't there, for an excuse to be angry and to have a pretext for accusations.
ReplyDeleteOn this agree with you!
ReplyDeleteAnd what I think is sort of interesting is that you don't see these kinds of discussions on Game of Thrones comments,, where those things are "really" there (and are really shown), but it's like that audience is prepared to be more grown up about it and go with "the story" instead of using it to fight for their own causes.
Interesting you feel that way because to me this is a discussion/comment section and I feel like most everyone is discussing there opinions and ideas not angry arguing. But I guess if you feel that way it is understandable because this show is based on fairy tales/legends that have been with us for hundreds maybe thousands of years and they are based on many things including emotion. And these fairy tales contain many archetypes that people feel connected with and some do get angry/emotional. But so far I thought everyone was having an interesting discussion.
ReplyDeleteAnd in some cases people see things like rape,sexism, racism, etc. everywhere because they have possibly had a great deal of experiences within those categories. But also there is some truth to what many people are saying because when you pick at the details there are more details underneath the original details and storylines and you will see that certain elements are very common.
My issue is not with Snow killing Cora. My issue is using Regina to do so. Also Rumpel got what he wanted and ended up being able to skip along the sidewalk and go about his merry way, again. While he leaves behind a heartbroken Regina (again) and a thoroughly torn up Snow White.
ReplyDeleteI don't blame Snow all that much for wanting to kill Cora, but I do think she went about it the wrong way. Personally I'd have crushed Cora's heart, and f**k Rumpel at the same time. But oh no, we can't leave poor rumpel die because he's family now... Did we forget just 5 (?) episodes ago he threatened to kill everyone in the room, INCLUDING Henry, if someone harmed a hair on Belle's head?
I'll be the last one to defend Regina's actions, she has to pay up for what she's done, but Snow also has some amends to make, and come to terms with what she's done as well. I think, I hope, if the writers do go that way. It would make for some delicious interactions between Snow and Regina, as long as they don't kill each other in the mean time.
hands down, best episode of the season. That ending, omg... Lana Parilla rocks my world everytime she acts.
ReplyDeleteI don't blame Snow. I think her actions are entirely human and justified. And I agree about Regina. My comment was about the idea of goodness that Snow (and perhaps others in town) herself holds. Snow wouldn't have done it if she wasn't overwhelmed with grief. She is going to blame and hate herself for taking a life. Because that wasn't personally acceptable to her and was what separated her from Regina
ReplyDeleteI have trouble understanding the structure of Storybrooke's society. Is Charming the sheriff or the overall ruler along with Snow? Do they even consider themselves part of the USA? What laws do they follow? Regina should have long ago been in jail, Snow now too in a way. And whose behalf did she decide to enact justice? This kind of justice is very medieval.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree about the mess. it is full of hypocrisy. Snow's idea of good was that good is good because they don't take something so precious as life from other people. But it's very unrealistic. She didn't directly cross the line, but indirectly she behaved on Regina's level and killed, she did something what she considered evil. Unlike Regina, she is going to blame herself for it.
Good always managed to fight back. In one way or the other. But they lack a system for dealing with magic villains.
Most evil act? Regina ripped almost the entire population of the Enchanted forest from their world, made them forget who they are, cursed them into frozen miserable existances, tore them from their families and people they loved. She kidnapped a young woman and kept her locked in a town and later mental hospital for 28+ years. She kept a man as her sex slave fore who knows how long, and killed him when he left her. Rumple refused to fight for his wife, when he thought that she was kidnapped by pirates and pretty much be their sex slave. Cora killed the man her daughter loved so that she could make her daughter Queen. Cora tried to manipulate a young child into murdering someone to save her mother. Trust me, what Snow did was bad, but that by far was *not* the most evil act ever.
ReplyDeleteThe scene of Rumple telling Belle who she is brought tears to my eyes, and although I initially wanted Cora to die when she looked at Regina with so much love and told her that she would have been enough I didn't want it anymore.
ReplyDeleteI've been thinking the same lately! And the biggest irony is that most OUAT fans like the fantasy genre in general and watch both shows. But the "moral judgement" attacks are only fashionable in the OUAT fandom, while incest and head-chopping are acceptable in GoT. Go figure.
ReplyDeleteAnd then they say that Evil Regals are apologists. *sarcasm*
ReplyDeleteMaybe, but we are getting more young!Cora/Rumple flashbacks next season, so clearly there's more to the story. (if memory serves, Rose McGowan has already confirmed additional appearances)
ReplyDeleteI do think that Snow is hypocritical, and so is Charming, I have pointed that out on more than one occasion and personally I have criticised them both equally. I don't mind flawed characters, I don't mind Snow being bitter or selfish or whatever, because flaws and inner conflicts make characters interesting. However, I can't tolerate this particular flaw - showing contempt and looking down on others, being self-righteousness, feeling superior (when it's clearly not justified). Snow and Charming are both prone to the same mistakes that Regina makes, yet they like to think they are above her.
ReplyDeleteBut it's interesting that you should mention Snow being vilified. That is precisely the direction that the show has taken now, setting up Snow as the next villain, and I think that only goes to prove my point that female characters on OUAT are always more often vilified than male.
Why is Snow's choice to take a life given such emphasis? Charming never hesitated to take a life, never regretted the decision, he felt no inner conflict after he had killed for the first time. I think the portrayal of female characters and their male counterparts clearly differs, and the attitude toward them is different. In fact, in 2x16 for the first time anyone referred to Rumple as "evil". So far he's been called dangerous, "the most powerful man in the world", or "a very clever man". And then there's the romanticised "beast" pet name Belle has for him (yeah, I never liked that ship either). The only one who has actually called him names is Regina ("bastard", "twisted little imp", and "snake" - but that last one actually enforces the association of Regina with the original sin/Adam and Eve tale). And Regina and Cora are directly referred to (by other women) as "evil" and "wicked". How is that not using an archaic stereotype?
Well I think that there are far too many associations with the tale of the original sin for it to be a coincidence. Regina even refers to Rumple as "a snake" when she warns Emma not to "get into bed with him". The young!Regina/Rumple scene in 2x02 was eerily similar to a seduction, with Rumple tempting Regina to use magic (which can be interpreted as gaining wisdom), so I can definitely see him as "the snake" tempting Regina to "taste the forbidden fruit".
ReplyDeleteThe only people Snow and Charming have looked down on have been Regina and Rumple, and to me they're more than justified, given everything those two have done (like killing Snow's mother). Both Snow and Charming were the biggest advocates for Belle, when others thought she was dangerous and wanted her dead. They embraced the Giant (forgot his name), even after he tried to kill Charming and they've given Regina and Rumple more than enough times to show their good side (starting with the day that Snow insisted on sparing Regina's life in the Enchanted Forest). And unlike Regina and Cora, Snow refused to take someone else's life to save someone that she loved the most as a child. If anything, they're too forgiving.They may have made a few mistakes, but nothing they've done compares to most of the bad things that Rumple and Regina have done, so I'm not seeing the hypocrisy at all. Furthermore, Snow is her toughest critic. She blames herself for Regina losing her love, even though Cora should be blamed.
ReplyDeleteIt was heartbreaking, but it might make whatever comes next more interesting. I'm still hopeful that there is hope for Regina, because I think that's only fair considering I think she has endured the most betrayals. I also think they introduced a lot of this life after death stuff for reasons too. So I am hopeful that the characters could learn that they might not have lost everything they think they have. I'm not a solely an Evil Regal, but I want to see Regina make through a lot of seasons and so I'm kind of glad they didn't just make her this good person with no more trails. This way we have more time to get there and it will probably feel really rewarding when we do!
ReplyDeleteMe too! I still hope she will though. I think it would be great to see! (I almost want to change my name to DarthSnow!) I think it makes good sense to get rid of Cora in the foreground (present), but I suspect that she's still important to the background (past) as she might relate (along with Rumple) to up and coming characters, as it almost seems the villain-ball is back in Hook's court, plus whatever is going to go on with Greg and possible other unknowns.
ReplyDeleteIt's def there in subtext:
ReplyDeleteMARY Margaret and DAVID are the parents of THE SAVIOR (Brother JAMES is the Uncle) + "Fruit of Poisonous Tree" (Forbidden Fruit- Tree of Life/Tree of Knowledge) + The Book of Giants + 'Good Sheppard' (Farming: David, Giants), Kingdoms (Hierarchy - Heaven), Blue Fairy/Mother Superior - Nuns (Spiritual Guide: 'let your conscience be your guide', Fairy's may also be like "angles"), Swan (Swan Song - death, immortality)...
I'm actually impressed that the writers pay homage to the actual written tale and not just Disney's, as like in Grim Brothers later additions, Fairy Tales tend to have moral leanings of Theological Roots. Culturly, that's really what fairy tales and myths are, as before modern times/first world countries, Theology and/or Philosophy was heavily apart of Law and Order and thus more rigidly apart of everyday life.
I agree she's not in league with Regina, but this might be a sign she is moving in that direction....It would be deliciously fun for Snow to make 'bad choices' that lead to something that is out of her control (something Cora once wanted: to demoralize Snow)...So if somehow she becomes the Dark One for half a season and somehow isn't even in control of herself, it's a great juxtapostion to how Regina (in a different way) was manipulated to becoming who she was. They have an opportunity to trade places. I dunno about you guys, but I like to see that!
ReplyDeleteIt was the most evil act ESPECIALLY considering that Snow knows exactly how it feels to be toyed with like that. She very well remembered how awful it made her feel way back when "the Blue Fairy" offered her the chance and now she made Regina actually kill her own mother using the same tactics... also knowing that her actions in the past, however good-intentioned, had already robbed Regina of someone she loved. To do this to her twice... It was pure premeditated cruelty, it doesn't matter what the intentions behind it were.
ReplyDeleteShe killed him because he had become a threat to the curse, not because he left her. He was starting to remember, Regina met up with Graham and Emma as they exited the crypt, remember. After all his babble about how he was unable to feel anything while with her, it was clear that either he had to go or the curse would end. And crushing his heart wasn't easy for Regina, it's not like she was grinning madly as she crushed it, that was regret on her face. She asked him to reconsider right before he left the graveyard, she didn't want to kill him but it was either him or the curse.
ReplyDeleteIt was True Love's kiss, it was a kiss from the Savior :)
ReplyDeletelol, what do you mean "you don't buy" Kitsis or Horowitz's explanation, they are the show! lmao
ReplyDeleteSnow is sort of hypocritical. In the beginning Regina was just as pure and innocent as Snow was, maybe even more so. Her heart was turned black by the actions and manipulations or Cora and Rumplestiltskin. Snow has always seen herself as one of the good guys and yet back in FTL when she thought that Charming didn't love her, she was the one who sought out Rumplestiltskin and decided to drink the potion he gave her. Luckily Charming saved her from herself before she could kill the Evil Queen but it just as well could've turned out different. Regina and Snow are not that different, Snow just has more people on her side who look out for her plus her True Love while Regina's destiny was pretty much predetermined by Rumplestiltskin and his need for her to cast the dark curse. That said, I am definitely a Regina fan first and foremost but I love Snow too, she's a very interesting and complex character :)
ReplyDeleteThey're clearly trying to save face because it's a family show. And Jamie himself stated recently in an interview that the relationship is manipulative.
ReplyDeleteI think Regina is a psychopath. People forget that Regina had tried on multiple occasions to kill her own mother....Snow only managed what Regina had been trying to accomplish for year? The way it finally occurred, was very heartbreaking. But had Regina been in Snow's shoes, I doubt she'd be feeling the same remorse that Snow is now feeling. On the contrary...she'd probably be celebrating the brilliance of her plan. I knew that Snow would feel instant remorse for her actions, but technically, doesn't owe Regina anything, especially considering that Regina has been trying to destroy her and her loved ones for half a century. And Snow most definitely didn't owe Cora any kindness, given the recent revelation about how her mother really died...which didn't seem to bother Regina in the least.
ReplyDeleteSnow drank the potion to save Charming, not because she thought he didn't love her. She left Charming, because she knew that if she stayed with him, he might get killed. She took the potion so that she wouldn't be tempted to be with him and also to ease the pain she was feeling. I'm not seeing the bad in that at all. Plus, if she's so much like Regina, then Regina's fans should embrace her too....
ReplyDeleteYeah but now Regina is really after Snow!
ReplyDeleteShe needs to appeal to Rumple's gratitude. :)
ReplyDeleteOh I am psycho path???? okay I think you are taking this far! The writers of the show did not show us that Snow White planned on using Regina to insert Cora's heart. It Looked like a last minute idea when Regina walked in and caught Snow with Cora's heart. And Snow White knew she had seconds to make a decision before CORA MURDERED Bae, the Charmings and brainwashed Henry and WHO KNows who else she would had murdered in story brook. HEY if I could have tricked Hitler's Kid into killing his DAD....YOU KNOW WHAT i would have done IT!!!!! If the only way to have save the 9/11 victims was to have tricked the terrorists kids into killing their dads.....I WOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM doing it. YES my conscious would destroy me and I would be miserable .....BUT better me in pain and saddness that ENTIRE millions of people.
ReplyDeleteDear writers,
ReplyDeleteall this "poor Regina is a bad person because the circumstances and people around her made her like this" crap is beginning to be annoying. Look for another reason or just tell us she's like this just because she wants to. She's a grown woman, for God's sake!!!
Signed,
a fan who is beginning to be disappointed.