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POLL : What did you think of Once Upon a Time - The Queen Is Dead?

Mar 4, 2013

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162 comments:

  1. InvestedInYourFutureMarch 4, 2013 at 2:03 AM

    This was EXCITING. Long time since OUAT made me feel this way.




    I LOVE that they are exploring more of what Snow is capable of. We have seen hints of it before(in Heart of Darkness for example), but its even BETTER that they are fleshing it out more now.


    I love how the title of episode refers to a lot more than just Snow's mother:
    Its basically first part of the saying "Queen is Dead, long live the queen" - circle of life and death, good and evil, duality in every person.


    So its VERY fitting that the episode explored duality in all of those Queens

    - Emma's struggle between who she was and who she is and the "death" of her hopes when she found out Neal moved on.
    - Regina's struggle between two sides of her and her trust in mother slowly dying, together with her evil queen side.
    - Cora's struggle with her antithesis in form of Snow's mother.
    - Snow's struggle with herself, as well as concept of morality, as the "Snow White of fairytales" dies and "Snow of storybrooke", not bound by those moral obligations is born.




    PERFECT episode.



    Its great to see OUAT return to form.

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  2. klutzy_girlMarch 4, 2013 at 2:04 AM

    Oh shit. I don't blame poor Snow for reaching her breaking point. This isn't going to be good for her.

    Love that Neal was so worried about his father. That was sweet.



    And I like what we've seen of Tamara so far. I think she and Neal would be good together.

    Great episode!

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  3. LyshMarch 4, 2013 at 2:13 AM

    I'm so glad that Hook stabbing Gold scene was better than the sneak peek. Poor dude's gonna be stuck there for a while.


    This episode was great! Bailee Madison really nailed it.

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  4. C PMarch 4, 2013 at 2:17 AM

    Intense episode.


    Glad the scene with Hook was more intense than what the sneak peek was.


    I can understand Snow wanting to do whatever she has to to defeat Cora. It just may be the only way to defeat her. Hopefully Snow doesn't lose herself in the process.

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  5. romanticelizabeth4March 4, 2013 at 2:31 AM

    Tamara is just an obstacle for Neal/Emma. It couldn't be more obvious. It's an annoying clice tv shows seem to love.

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  6. klutzy_girlMarch 4, 2013 at 2:34 AM

    I really hope not because I do not ship Neal/Emma at all. I'd go for Neal/Tamara (or Neal/Regina, tbh).

    ReplyDelete
  7. Burroak96March 4, 2013 at 2:45 AM

    Honestly, I no longer understand defending Regina after this episode. I understand that she has been super-manipulated by Cora, but there gets to be a point when it takes two to tango.

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  8. CaitlynMarch 4, 2013 at 2:57 AM

    Word. I understand Regina has been through hell but so has a lot of characters and enough is enough. Good people are not murders and snow is not the one that added evil to Regina's name, it was mostly Cora and Rumple but she has got to start taking responsibility for what she has done. Until she does she will never be good.

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  9. Symce (Mylene)March 4, 2013 at 2:59 AM

    haha neal/regina I'd love to see just to see the possibly bitch fight that would ensue between regina/emma right after lol. It wont happen ofc, but for some reason this throws me back to the Buffy episode in which Faith inhabits her body and sleeps with Buffy's boyfriend <3


    Always fun dramas.

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  10. Daniel AlvarezMarch 4, 2013 at 4:19 AM

    well.. this was good writitng! i loved it!
    OUaT didn't disapoint me tonight, and it's actually really good for me that Snow finally stopped being the damsel in distress. This way, she can be more interesting to me.

    Nael is Peter Pan...(i think) there were too many hints tonight alluding to his other self.

    Evil Regina is one of the thinks that keeps me intrigued with this show, so i'm cool with her staying on her mother's side.

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  11. MeatyStakesMarch 4, 2013 at 4:49 AM

    We saw her for like two seconds! It makes me think that your are more against Neal/Emma than in favor of Neal/Tamara.

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  12. MeatyStakesMarch 4, 2013 at 4:50 AM

    Me to, Regina has reached the point where she cannot be redeemed to my eyes. The murdering of Johanna was just to cruel, and she relished on it. I'm sorry Regina, but I wish you naught but ill.

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  13. MeatyStakesMarch 4, 2013 at 5:05 AM

    Well, after this episode, Regina is dead to me. That was just cruel and plain evil. The only modicum of redemption she could attain now would be if she sacrificed herself.

    But no happy ending for you.

    Kinda excited about Darth Snow though, shit got real.

    Cora is my favorite villain, she is evil to boot and she knows it; can't wait to see her go up in flames.

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  14. inhighheelsMarch 4, 2013 at 5:13 AM

    I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see the logic here.
    Snow can reach her breaking point, well deservedly so, because she lost her mother, lost the last connection she had to her, and go all "let's kill this bitch", but if Regina reaches her breaking point, she can't seek revenge?
    I'm not saying any of those things is excusable, and I do understand killing Cora and killing Snow might be different things, since Cora actually did kill the queen, whereas Snow didn't kill Daniel with her own hands. Still, it's killing.
    I'm also not saying everyone has to forgive Regina, I'm just trying to point out how funny it is the fandom reacts to the episode in the exact opposite way of what the episode itself it trying to show us: everyone has breaking points, everyone screws up and everyone can go dark sometimes.

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  15. MeatyStakesMarch 4, 2013 at 6:19 AM

    But that's comparing apples with oranges; you are purposely misinterpreting Snow's breaking point to make Regina look better. as if it justified Regina's actions. Let's revisit this one Snow becomes a murdering and unrepentant Queen and is truly comparable to Regina.

    I hoped that Regina went for redemption this season, and I was rooting for her, but after today, I'm just through with her. Poor Johanna didn't deserve to die like that, and Regina, even it wasn't her hand, didn't care one bit. Her behavior is psychopathic to boot.



    Oh, and "Snow killing Daniel" is just messed up. I mean, that's just insane logic.

    ReplyDelete
  16. inhighheelsMarch 4, 2013 at 6:28 AM

    No, that is my point, I'm NOT trying to make Regina look good, I'm simply trying to say people fail to see Snow also has a darker side. In any way am I trying to say what Regina did was excusable and everyone should forgive her and get it over with. The only thing I'm really trying to say is that people should remember that Snow is planing on killing Cora. Is it uncalled for? Hell no, but it's murder. Does it make Regina look better? No, it doesn't. But it reminds us Snow is also reaching her breaking point: she can't take it anymore. She did good, she tried to be good over and over again, she got screwed. Just as Regina did. So, no, I'm not trying to compare apples and oranges, I'm trying to say people once again insist on seeing the show as a black and white, good v. evil world, when the show itself shoves down our throats week after week that this manicheistic division simply doesn't exist.

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  17. MeatyStakesMarch 4, 2013 at 7:06 AM

    But there's no apt comparison to make at all, it borderlines in offensive! Even if it's true that Snow is threading dark waters and demonstrating that "Good" might not be an absolute, it's MAGNITUDES removed from Regina's actions.

    They are not on equal standing, Snow is a person that has done nothing but good planing to do a bit of evil. Regina is really damaged person that has done too much evil and barely any good.

    You are right that this is not a black and white show at all, but grey has too many shades to lump them all together.

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  18. inhighheelsMarch 4, 2013 at 7:20 AM

    Ahn, I guess we're saying the same thing with different words. I'm not saying they're on equal standing, I'm just effing pissed that most people don't see that Snow can do bad things as well. As bad as Regina? Again, no. But bad anyway.

    I disagree that Regina hardly did any good, however. She saved Snow's life, she raised the girl for 8 years (and we have no idea how that was, because we have barely no flashbacks, but if we consider Fruit of the Poisonous Tree and how Snow was then, I believe she did a pretty decent job), she actually saved Snow and Emma's life not a month ago. Yeah, she also killed Leopold, tried to kill Snow, killed a bunch of other people, but I'm not trying to keep score, just point out what happened.



    All in all, I'm not saying this is proof Snow is just as bad as Regina, but it's funny to see how people fail to pay attention to what's on the screen. Cora said to Eva's corpse "I will turn her dark and destroy your legacy". And that's what she is trying to do. She managed to turn her own daughter dark, now she wants to do the same thing with Snow. You can argue that both of them have free will and they made the choices they wanted throughout their lives, but it doesn't change the fact Cora (and Rumple) were planning their paths years before they were even born. That, IMO, makes them more similar than most people give them credit for.

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  19. MeatyStakesMarch 4, 2013 at 7:31 AM

    I guess that most people, that are so vocal on the difference(myself including), see justification in Snow's intentions, yet none on Regina's.

    You can feel bad for Regina (I do most of the time) and even find some sort of inexorable predestination in her path, but is not justification for her mostly horrible actions.

    Regina WAS a kind woman, she saved Snow whens he was a child. But after Daniel's death, she got broken. Regina might have been an "apt" parent for Snow, but if so, was only part of the charade to usurp her throne, not real goodness or kindness, merely lies.

    That you bring that up only makes me believe that you are indeed trying to sway the "score" and I don't think it's a zero sum thing at all, yet I don't think it really matters. I like second chances, and even despise all the evil Regina did, I believed she could change.

    But if she is indeed working alongside Cora once again, she has blown any good will and empathy from me.

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  20. prpleightMarch 4, 2013 at 8:09 AM

    Really interesting story question for Snow..has me looking forward to upcoming eps. I'm not sure I buy Snow (or Charming) for that matter believing Cora would keep her word....especially after figuring out that she'd murdered Snow's mother. Because of that I was glad that Snow threw the dagger at the ground rather than literally handing it to Cora. I know this....Gold is going to have a few choice words for Emma's proposal of trusting family. :-)


    Actually, liked the Emma, Neal and Henry bits...Gold outburst against Henry was just....WTF? I'm dealing better with Emma and Neal as a fractured couple. Am a fan of the guy playing Neal but did not believe one iota of the the "great love" story we got in that back story episode. It's working better for me now. Though I cringe inwardly at the idea of them getting back together.


    Great episode though.

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  21. prpleightMarch 4, 2013 at 8:10 AM

    I agree. The actors have no on screen chemistry at all. I did like Emma and Hook. I could get behind that.


    Neal/Regina....THAT is an interesting thought! :-)

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  22. prpleightMarch 4, 2013 at 8:12 AM

    I do NOT disagree with you at all. However, they're clearly setting the story up for Regina to foil Cora by keeping her from using the dagger. I don't say that as a case for defending Regina just a statement of where I see the story going.

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  23. andy sMarch 4, 2013 at 8:40 AM

    Why do characters have to be this stupid in the show? I get pitting good vs evil, but pitting stupid vs evil is really not fair, and greatly lessens the quality of the show.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Symce (Mylene)March 4, 2013 at 11:21 AM

    I noticed the same thing. Regina keeps asking Cora about what her plans are, and what her plans for the dagger are. There's just too much inquiry there to be a coincidence. It's obvious something's about to happen.

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  25. klutzy_girlMarch 4, 2013 at 11:41 AM

    I am. What Neal did with Emma was statutory rape considering she was seventeen and he was like three hundred years older than her (which makes it creepier than if he was in his twenties) and framed her and sent her to jail. I like him, but no, Neal. No. Not here for that.

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  26. inhighheelsMarch 4, 2013 at 12:22 PM

    Absolutely. I mean, it's not that I accept everything Regina did, but I guess the main difference is I'm not that worried about justification, because I believe that (and this is not only true for Regina and Snow, but for all characters on the show) trying to keep score is not the solution.

    Regina will always lose if we do it like that, so she will always be the bad guy, therefore she will never deserve another chance. If she indeed sided with Cora (and I believe she did), just one more for her list of "evil points".

    Again, not saying Regina is a saint, she is SO far from that, but I don't think that up until know anyone gave post-curse Regina a real opportunity to be better. She tried, but it got her nowhere. She had to kill her true love, leave her son, save Snow and Emma and what did she get in return? People accusing her for killing Archie. Fair enough, Regina herself said Cora had the whole thing well planned out and it was difficult for anyone to believe otherwise, but still, Regina got absolutely nothing in return for her good deeds. Apart from dinner with a bunch of hypocrites, who, as she sees it, took the first chance they had to turn on her.

    That is why she says to Snow "see where good will get you?". It's not her being smart, it's her telling Snow what she really feels. It's super screwed up, but it's all she's ever learned.

    But, well, I guess we can agree to disagree. People are meant to see characters under different lights and I believe that's very much fine :)



    And, god, if I dedicated myself half as much to school, I'd be on my PhD by now!

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  27. Angela RobinsonMarch 4, 2013 at 12:59 PM

    Regina and Cora need to die, IDK how people defend Regina, bad stuff happened to her, so what? Bad stuff happened to everyone in Storybrook.

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  28. mzsoMarch 4, 2013 at 1:32 PM

    It'd be so funny if it would turn out to be a replica dagger.

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  29. FeekkMarch 4, 2013 at 1:40 PM

    You're scary. You sound like Regina's fan, and Regina's fans always sound scary... My god...

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  30. FeekkMarch 4, 2013 at 1:41 PM

    But, but, how is Regina dead to you but Cora is your fav villain? She's the one who killed the poor Johanna. After this episode I just want her gone forever.

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  31. FeekkMarch 4, 2013 at 1:42 PM

    I hope, I freaking hope so, because if Regina does not go back, she is no longer one of my fav characters.

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  32. inhighheelsMarch 4, 2013 at 1:48 PM

    I must say I'm actually quite flattered by that, which probably just proves I am a Regina fan.

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  33. FeekkMarch 4, 2013 at 1:48 PM

    For Regina in season 1, I've always loved to hate her, although it was an exception in The Mad Hatter because she cruelly separated the father and the daughter, and this episode she also made me change my heart about her since she just let that bitch Cora killed Johanna like she's worthless (although she did put the heart back in), but I think there's a turning point where Regina could change and manipulated her mother. BUT, Cora, oh Cora, I've never loved to hate you, I just hated you. I want you gone forever. After you killed Johanna, which was one of the most shocking and heartbreaking scenes of TV history for me, there's no redemption for you. You killed countless souls, and the only way for me not to lose my mind is for you to be gone, or better yet, die. I can't take Johanna out of my mind. God...

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  34. stormqueenMarch 4, 2013 at 1:55 PM

    That makes it awkward that so many of the 'good' characters are murderers, like Grumpy, Red, Emma, etc.

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  35. stormqueenMarch 4, 2013 at 1:58 PM

    Lots of good stuff and a lot of stupidity here.

    I loved the Snow/Regina scenes though Snow is like that person who tells you that you can 'get over' depression by putting your mind to it. Damn, girl, you think that telling Regina that her mother doesn't care about her is going to get you ANYWHERE?

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  36. FeekkMarch 4, 2013 at 2:02 PM

    Nothing flattering about that to be honest. What that says about you is that you like a character so much, everything that she does should be justifiable, even when she killed a poor innocent woman, separated a father from his daughter, framed someone for murder, etc etc etc...

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  37. Symce (Mylene)March 4, 2013 at 2:02 PM

    Oh there's a thought. Could even be Regina herself plays the good old bait and switch. Something I think Cora is also pulling on Snow with the heart. She crushes it, and it turns out to be heart of someone innocent instead of Cora's. I do think they won't go there, but who knows.

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  38. inhighheelsMarch 4, 2013 at 2:08 PM

    I don't think my personal opinion on that is relevant at all, but I like Regina despite all of the things she did, not because of them. And, man, learn how to take a joke.
    It's a TV show, I'm a fan, no world war going on in here. I like Regina, you don't like her. Don't worry, I don't plan on go around killing people, so nothing to worry about.

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  39. DarthLocke4March 4, 2013 at 2:14 PM

    Love this episode! Young Snow is always SO good, but I love that we 're venturing further in the past wih these stories, as clearly Cora and Snow's mother have a history together and I'm interested in this Game of Thrones-esque reference that Snow was born in 'the harshest winter'...


    I was sadly wrong about Regina, she seems pretty wicked again, but I was right that the Land without Magic was NOT Bae's first stop, or where he traveled to through the portal...


    The interesting thing about Cora having shape-shifting-smoke-monster abilities, is that who know who she has all impersonated herself as to play her game! It was a cool twist with the Blue Fairy, but I also think that the little girl who was Bae's friend might have also at least once, been Cora in disguise.


    I liked how the writers used Snow's Birthdays (and the day her mother dies) in contrast to her reflecting in the mirror at the beginning of the episode. It was nice to see that she realizes that she has inadvertently caused people pain and in some ways she is regretting it. I also see potential to see her slip and become darker...I almost wonder if there is foreshadowing here that she could become the next Dark One and if this is Cora's bigger goal????


    It was also nice to see Mrs. Pattmore, but too bad her Once character had to die, but I think death and immortality have been used very well this season and am curious as to where it's all going and if the Blue Fairy is "right" about her beliefs in it.


    I feel like finally all the stuff set up in the beginning of the season and even things from the first season are starting to come together nicely!

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  40. Shannon KennedyMarch 4, 2013 at 2:16 PM

    I was wondering did Bai/Neil just say that he was Peter Pan?

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  41. DarthLocke4March 4, 2013 at 2:19 PM

    I agree. I think it's the only place to go with her if she's staying in the show. I have a feeling if Henry gets in the middle of this and/or becomes a pawn in Cora's game (maybe Cora knows Henry is a foil to Rumple?), that's when she'll really stop and think.

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  42. ThirdofEightMarch 4, 2013 at 2:22 PM

    The best episode yet!!! It really felt like OUAT was getting its groove back. I was particularly happy to see Regina's return to the dark side addressed in greater depth. True, I would personally prefer it she had continued her quest for redemption, but at the same time, her reasons for abandoning those efforts make a lot more sense in the light of this story. It's just sad to see her destroy all chances of reconciliation with Mary Margaret this way.

    Also, lots of exciting clues to Cora's true motives. My theory is that she and Snow's mother were sisters somehow. No doubt we'll get more info on this next week. It's nice to see that there's more to her plan than *just* becoming powerful; apparently we've got an element of revenge going on as well. Next week's episode should be fantastic.

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  43. ThirdofEightMarch 4, 2013 at 2:25 PM

    Yeah, it's a little hard to accept only because I felt like I saw some hint of good in her earlier this season, but in the end, this is the Evil Queen we're talking about. Look at all the horrible things she was willing to do in her former life, including killing her own father. Maleficent was right about the act of casting the curse changing Regina irreparably. However, it would appear that she'll be willing to turn against her mother if she feels Henry is threatened. I'd at least like to see her do that.

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  44. Ralissa VassilissaMarch 4, 2013 at 2:27 PM

    Finally a solid, exciting episode, the best for me since "The Cricket Game" and "Queen of Hearts". Of course, it was not without its issues, but having seen it once, I loved it.

    Bailee was just spectacular, that girl is just a natural talent and her scenes were beautifully heartbreaking. Queen Eva, on the other hand, came across artificial and pretentious.

    My favourite scene in the entire episode was easily the Snow/Regina dialogue at Granny's diner, although Regina/Cora at the end comes at a close second.

    And boy, I'm actually pleasantly surprised that Snow's taking a turn for the dark side. It's should provide interesting character development. There have certainly been some hints along the way that Snow's capable of doing horrible things under extreme circumstances.

    As for Regina, I'm glad we got a glimpse into her reasoning, it was pretty much a confirmation of what I already knew. I'm looking forward to seeing the Evil Queen unleashed soon, I've missed her! :D Time for all hell to break loose!

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  45. DarthLocke4March 4, 2013 at 2:27 PM

    To me it seems like there is a fair amount of subtext from here and "Heart of Darkness" (I think it is) that Snow has potential to be incredibly dark! I think she might become The Dark One and this is Cora's plan...to make Snow as corrupt as possible! The thing about it that I find interesting is that Regina really build her darkness over time, where I think we're going to see Snow do it in such a drastic way, that I think it will feel darker, then what other Dark characters, especially if Snow is used to fight against her family and that Regina will have to help Emma....So I agree that this episode is a reminder of the possibility of all of our darkness and that despite Snow's best efforts, she might be forced and/or compelled to really cave into hers, because even if she isn't at first in control of her emotions (Cora might control her through the dagger) she might not want to come back from The Dark Side!! ::Greg's cell phone ring tone plays::

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  46. ThirdofEightMarch 4, 2013 at 2:31 PM

    By the way, weren't the clues about Neal being Peter Pan cool? What a clever twist to explain how he remained younger all that time. The only thing I don't understand is, why did he end up in Neverland when (most likely) there's magic there? He wouldn't have wanted to take his dad there. Maybe the portal just malfunctioned somehow?


    This raises another interesting question - how much world-hopping did Bae actually do? Could he have visited even more worlds in transit to ours, like Oz or Wonderland?


    And one more thing...who is Tamara? Possibly just an ordinary human, I suppose. Nah...

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  47. ThirdofEightMarch 4, 2013 at 2:38 PM

    Yeah, Snow's apparent descent into darkness was very skillfully done. I was startled - though not displeased - at how dark things got this week. Seems Ginnifer wasn't lying about Disney allowing them to push the envelope as much as they liked.


    Poor Mrs. Patmore... :(

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  48. ThirdofEightMarch 4, 2013 at 2:39 PM

    Unless she turns out to be a fairy tale character herself...

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  49. ThirdofEightMarch 4, 2013 at 2:39 PM

    Darth Snow...I really like that. Hey, this would be a great time to bring in the Star Wars stuff, Disney...

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  50. DarthLocke4March 4, 2013 at 2:47 PM

    Although I agree with the idea that Snow is questing morality here, I disagree her Storybrooke counterpart initially didn't come with moral obligations, as she was incarnated into the role of a semi-conservative school teacher, where she clearly cared about Henry having morality in his life, as she gave him the book of fairy tales to teach him said morals...

    I think once's thesis is at it's heart Star Wars,,,,the idea that even when characters do horrible things, it's still coming from a place of love. This is something the writers tried to express about Regina and her relationship with Cora at Palay Fest yesterday. So It's really about being able to come back from the dark side, as opposed to Darkness not also being created from love. (as one could argue that if one didn't love, they wouldn't feel pain that spawns the hate)

    I think Snow, especially in her initial Stroybrooke incarnate embodied the child version of herself and now post curse she's to back to wrestling those former childhood notions because they informed her adult life and I think there's a realization that she doesn't understand herself, just as a child might not, and that leaves her incredibly vulnerable, as like Emma, Bae, Henry, and others, she's been lied to and kept in the dark about things that are inadvertently and inevitably going to hurt her.

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  51. DarthLocke4March 4, 2013 at 2:51 PM

    Hmm should I change my name! :p

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  52. Ralissa VassilissaMarch 4, 2013 at 2:54 PM

    SNOW AS THE DARK ONE?? Heck, that's an amazing idea! It could make for a truly unexpected twist!

    I completely agree that we've seen hints, especially in "Heart of Darkness" and even earlier, in "Snow Falls", that Snow is capable of terrible things if pushed to extremes. Each character on the show has such potential, of course, but if Cora has set her mind on making a monster out of Snow...she might soon be renamed to Snow Dark. :D

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  53. ThirdofEightMarch 4, 2013 at 2:57 PM

    I've just deduced a few things based on the clues we've gotten in this episode, though they're just theories.

    First of all, since Neal is most likely Peter Pan, it seems extremely likely that the "Heidi" who's being cast in episode 2.21 is Wendy Darling. The description fits her quite well. Which may mean that we're not only going to get a flashback to Neverland in the finale episodes, but to events in our own world's past as well. How cool would that be?



    There's something else too - in conjunction with the "new land" we'll be seeing this season, which is almost certainly Neverland, we're supposed to get hints of another fairy tale character though not an actual appearance. You know what else they've got in Neverland besides fairies and Lost Boys?


    Mermaids.

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  54. DarthLocke4March 4, 2013 at 3:10 PM

    It really hit me when Cora comes to visit Snow's Mother Post Death and she admits her plans having to do with changing Snow's persona, as clearly she is jealous of the relationship Snow has with her mother. Regina kind of confirms this too when she confronts her mother on the day she saved Snow, realizing her mother "set" these things in motion. -It puts Snow and Regina in very similar situations because they're both realizing that they have been used as pawns and have grown into the people they are under very false pretenses, since neither one of them seem to know about this history between Snow's mother and Miller's daughter (except Rumple of course...)


    I kind of hop this happens to Snow, because it could be a really fun and exciting plot and a way to see Miss Goodwin play another version of herself.

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  55. DarthLocke4March 4, 2013 at 3:18 PM

    But if theories and finale episode titles do end up proving that Bae is Peter Pan, then we can see that despite how old Neal is, he lived in times where he "never grew up". So despite however long Neal has lived, he really never reached maturity until possibly the in the more recant time...


    We would have to wonder why he would ever leave Neverland to go to The Land Without Magic? -One could argue that TLWM represents "maturity", because it lacks magic and so thematically it conveys a sense of "realism". It's a place that can remind the characters that magic is only as good as magic does and that it's the people that they need to remember and find their love for.

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  56. DarthLocke4March 4, 2013 at 3:39 PM

    I think that's unfair. I think she has the right to stand up for Regina, just as anyone has the right to not stand up for her. @inhighheels:disqus I think makes a compelling case for Regina, especially when this episode enlightens the viewer that really Regina and Snow are in the same boat, because they have both been kept in the dark about their mothers' pasts and because Cora has used them both to seek her revenge against Snow's mother through her own daughter and unto to Snow. For Regina especially, her choices really haven't been completely her own. More than Snow has, Regina has been "set up" both by her mother and Rumple to be the villain she has become.


    So although I am highly disappointed by Regina here, it's still hard for me to just flat out hate her, because she couldn't see through all the false pretenses of her parents and their agendas...how else would a child or young women be any different in that situation?


    As For Snow I think she's also realizing that she doesn't know the whole truth either ad it's eating away at her, because she also is regretting and I think she is being written to either a long over due breaking point, or an unguarded and non self controlled instant fall to darkness (the dagger- the dark one)...

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  57. stormqueenMarch 4, 2013 at 4:02 PM

    I thought she gave him the book for hope. The fairytale book is a terrible place to learn morals.

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  58. InvestedInYourFutureMarch 4, 2013 at 4:03 PM

    I think its a huge mistake assuming that the post-curse MM/Snow is in anyway JUST Snow or JUST MM. Just as writers said at the beginning of a season, both of those experiences matter. Both personalities are formed from who they are as people.

    The thing is, however, Snow White as she was, was someone who ALWAYS strived to chose the "morally right choice" no matter the logical outcomes that would have been better.

    We have seen in "Heart of Darkness" that that side of Snow White was always there in her, that she can be very scary and dark. But at the same time "being Snow-White" complete with the implications of the name and her mother's legacy, keeps that in check.

    Snow, in post-curse life, corrects everyone to call her Mary Margaret and not Snow White -She finds being able to escape the "fairytale morality" liberating in her decision making. Snow the Fairy Tale princess would always be the good and let the good triumph, while
    Mary Margaret from Storybrooke is the morally-sound person, but not bound by the logic or obligations she was living by there.


    Just as was said in Paleyfest, the realization of not being bound by the "fairytale idea of Snow White" pretty much shatters her own view of herself, letting the writers to "redefine" Snow White.

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  59. stormqueenMarch 4, 2013 at 4:03 PM

    Why does it matter if Regina doesn't care that Johanna died though? We've seen Snow not care that plenty of people have died.

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  60. DarthLocke4March 4, 2013 at 4:06 PM

    Because, "so far" more than any other character, Regina has been used/shaped to become this dark person. Both her parents have been cruelly using her to get their end games. And unfortunately, it's only after the death of Snow's beloved former servant, that Regina begins to realize the role of pawn she has been playing in a feud that clearly goes beyond her and Snow. I still think Regina still has a redemption arc, especially if Snow is forced to go dark and Henry's life becomes more and more in jeopardy due to both of her parents again...

    Additionally the episode by having the actress who plays Mrs Pattmore on Downton Abby play a servant again here (and have her die at the hands of Cora), and because of Cora's name, and that Snow's mom embodies a little bit of Elisabeth McGovern role on Downton as well, it's clear from Cora's remarks towards Snow's mother that Once is getting a little more into Julian Fellow's territory on class and social justice...



    I'm not saying what Regina did here is good. I was highly disappointed in her, but at the same time I think it's hard to expect an instant over night success, when becoming good might be a lot harder than becoming bad...

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  61. stormqueenMarch 4, 2013 at 4:09 PM

    But what is 'justification'?

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  62. Ralissa VassilissaMarch 4, 2013 at 4:45 PM

    Well, given the parallels we've seen between so far between Snow and Regina, Snow turning into the Dark One would fit perfectly opposite Regina's turning into the Evil Queen. Cora "corrupting" Snow vs Rumple "corrupting" Regina. This season we've seen "villains" seeking redemption, so it makes sense to see some "heroes" joining the Dark Side.

    Gosh, so many juicy parallels and possibilities. Can you imagine a Dark!Snow vs the Evil Queen showdown??

    In fact, if they keep pitting the usual so-called "heroes" vs the usual "villains", then there'd be really no room for character development, not to mention the show would become boring. Snow falling prey to Cora's manipulations (again) can be an exciting game changer that poses a myriad of new issues and themes to be explored.

    I still cannot believe that the writers would go there, it's quite a bold move. I'm afraid that somehow it could be Regina who becomes the Dark One (I sincerely hope that won't be the case). But it will be so much more interesting to see Dark!Snow vs the Evil Queen. :D



    Anyway, judging by the Paleyfest panel, you might be right! Can't wait till next week to find out!

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  63. DarthLocke4March 4, 2013 at 4:52 PM

    "Mary Margaret from Storybrooke is the morally-sound person, but not bound by the logic or obligations she was living by there."

    Disagree, because that is the purpose of the curse to bind them to a new incarnation where Snow suffers. (like a sleeping curse, it's a type of death or state of stasis where one may not be able to "progress" and/or find happiness)

    Even though it might be true that initially right after the curse happened, they may have remembered their former lives for a short time, it's clear by the time we get to the Pilot, those memories are repressed and new one's have taken over, except for Rumple and Regina. So I think the curse is a logic-escape in and of itself, as logic I think is not a singular reality, but a view of how to obtain something based on what one's goal and beliefs are and or physical state of reality, which is also subjective to be in a state of flaux. In Snow's case I think the inner child in her could be innate, but like all children (being theological for a moment here) have the tendency for curiosity leading to falling from grace ('apple of the poisonous tree') and that is what makes us "human", as we must then fight to be back in 'grace'.

    Just as was said in Paleyfest, the realization of not being bound by the "fairytale idea of Snow White" pretty much shatters her own view of herself, letting the writers to "redefine" Snow White.



    This was also really my point about logic and reality. We're all prone to this no matter what the logic could be, because we are all limited to what we don't know. The difference in Snow's case however is that she has believed so greatly to protect an image of herself in the name of her mother, that she isn't prepared for the possibility for another reality, where other characters are better acquainted to and prepared for change, and that is why it's so devastating, because she truly embodies the child of humanity.


    But I think the seen her with the servant, mother, and tiaria goes nicely with that other flashback scene of Regina giving snow a locket and having Regina imagine strangling snow. It points out we all have these tendencies. Even snow becomes a thief and murderous after the death of her father and if it wouldn't have been for Charming she would have fallen to absolute darkness sooner. But I think The curse was kind of reset and it's still manifesting post curse) and she's about to revisit that situation where she didn't want to remember Charming and she didn't want to feel love...

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  64. Leonie1988March 4, 2013 at 5:03 PM

    Snow just wanted to plant a seed in Reginas head, she knew she wouldn't change anything, because Regina doesn't trust her. But the seed was planted and later on, Regina asked Cora a lot of important questions.

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  65. stormqueenMarch 4, 2013 at 5:05 PM

    It's just an unnecessarily cruel thing to say that could have accomplished a lot more if said differently.

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  66. Leonie1988March 4, 2013 at 5:05 PM

    YES! I have been saying that a lot. Everybody in Storybrook could go crazy and kill people, because terrible things happened to them. Red could become ruthless because she killed her boyfriend and mother... but she would never go that way.

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  67. Leonie1988March 4, 2013 at 5:06 PM

    And now we know, that Cora tried to make Snow evil as well but didn't succeed.

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  68. Leonie1988March 4, 2013 at 5:11 PM

    "I almost wonder if there is foreshadowing here that she could become the next Dark One and if this is Cora's bigger goal????"
    I have been thinking the same! If Cora wants the power of the Dark One and gets it, and then when Snow killd Cora, she gets the power. That would be really interesting. The fairest of them all... as the Dark One? Yay :)

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  69. Leonie1988March 4, 2013 at 5:14 PM

    The emphasis is on "sometimes". You can't kill everybody you like for 20 years because of one or two events. THAT'S were the difference lies.

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  70. Leonie1988March 4, 2013 at 5:16 PM

    I agree with you. You can like the Regina character, but it stops with justifying the murder of innocents.

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  71. Angela RobinsonMarch 4, 2013 at 5:19 PM

    I know that, I know bad stuff happened to her, Cora is evil to the core that much is obvious, but Regina is a big girl. She knows what is good and what is bad, I think tearing the heart out of an innocent old woman is pretty high on the evil scale. I do pitty her, but you can only defend her actions so much. For example, a mad man brutally killed a member of your family, and you find out he was abused as a child leading him to become what he is and what he did, would you feel pitty for him? The thing I like about OUAT is the good/bad line and how easy it is to cross that line, but its painfully obvious Regina is evil, and the sooner Emma and Snow stop giving her second chances the better. Are you forgetting she murdered Sheriff Graham?

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  72. DarthLocke4March 4, 2013 at 5:20 PM

    I disagree a bit and it's going to be hard to explain why, but I'll try.

    To start of this conversation will be hard because we are not all going to agree about "what" morality is. So we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

    Intially Snow White comes from the Grimm Brothers. A lot of their later additions of their fairy tales became more and more Judeo-Christian in the moral beliefs due to the culture of the times and acceptability of these fairy tales.

    Culturally humanity uses books and stories as many ways to share experience to convey and express a philosophy, which in itself comes with moral standards. Fairy tales and Medieval nursery rhymes in particular where aimed at children and often before more modern times did tend to have Religious themes.

    Once Upon A Time clearly is not only using Disney randititions of these tales, but also the original literary works as a part of the characters identities and stories themes, as Snow White (white is of purity) and Prince Charming's counter parts names are MARY Margaret and DAVID -the parents of the SAVIOR. The there are episodes titles like "The Apple of the Poisonous Tree" again, like Grimm Bros and Disney in this case, embody the ideas "Genesis and the Garden of Eden" -falling from grace and reworking towards it...

    The ONCE writers, because they are using Fairy Tales are obligated to make some kind of moral standard by shows end. I don't think they're fully embodying Judeo-Christian themes through and through, but rather are finding the better parts of those themes to make perhaps a more all encompassing point on LOVE being the solution no matter how far we fall.

    In Once's case I do believe that Snow and/or Mary Margaret does represent a wholesome kind of goodness and that her intentions of giving Henry the book as Mary Margeret were both consciencely of helping him deal with reality of dealing with Regina and being an adopted child (giving him a perspective of hope and ethics), while also subconsciously could be morally attempting to free them all, since it is Henry's beliefs and being able to not be subjective to the curse (he was born here) that allows him to see a BIGGER truth, a bigger reality that was taken away from most of the other characters. That's why Henry and Snow have some of the neatest dynamics because they both embody that inner child to want to believe good, even though they're both capable of crazy things, because they don't deal with being lied to and something other than the honor system very well...They haven't really matured and what "maturity" is, is something I think the writers are starting to go into...

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  73. stormqueenMarch 4, 2013 at 5:23 PM

    ...yeah. Exactly. Where they come from is what makes them TERRIBLE moral tales. The tales that Once has created makes them terrible moral tales and the originals are even worse so wanting Henry to have a sense of ethics and morals from stories that are at their core amoral isn't really all that great.

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  74. stormqueenMarch 4, 2013 at 5:25 PM

    But that's just the thing. HAS Snow done nothing but good? And has Regina done very little good?

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  75. DarthLocke4March 4, 2013 at 5:27 PM

    She hasn't succeeded YET.

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  76. stormqueenMarch 4, 2013 at 5:29 PM

    What do you mean? Where does 20 years come in? Also, we've seen on the show that it ISN'T one or two events, it's a series of interconnected moments designed to propel a group of women in different directions as chess pieces.

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  77. stormqueenMarch 4, 2013 at 5:30 PM

    LOL. You mean like how she tortured someone for information and then turned into the wolf and attacked a castle, killing a ton of people so that Snow could get Charming?

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  78. stormqueenMarch 4, 2013 at 5:32 PM

    She also didn't have 20 years of access to Snow to groom her and then Rumple had more plans for Snow and Regina that were beyond Cora...

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  79. stormqueenMarch 4, 2013 at 5:33 PM

    How could Bae's friend be Cora if that took place hundreds of years before she was born?

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  80. DarthLocke4March 4, 2013 at 5:45 PM

    Yes. Regina has murdered a lot of people she shouldn't of ever had and clearly she has done more despairing things, than most of the other characters outside of Cora and possibly Rumple, but also more than all of the other characters, she has been the most manipulated to be something she never really wanted to be. That to me is VERY sad and very unfair for Regina. (and I'm hopeful that she's starting to see that light now)

    I think Regina will be the character that's going to die trying to do the right thing, because now she sees this was never really about Snow, it was about their mothers...And even though Cora is absolutely wretched, it's also sad, but pleasing to see Regina try and love her mother again and attempt to fix that relationship. It's just that by doing that, she becomes the thing her mother wants her to be. The things the ruins Snow's innocence and virtue, because Cora wants to believe that evil is something seperate from good and that by destroying Snow's ability to love, she'll hurt Snow's mother beyond the grave...(which might be hinting at looking more death plane/after life stuff...Philip/Aurora)

    I think the show is trying to make a point that we, as children, are all born "pure of heart" and because of that everything we come to do, even bad things, comes from love, because to love is also to experience the pain of loss or defeat. To be human is to be aware of limitations. I think there are ideas here about love being of universal forgiveness and these are stories about falling prey to that pain and struggling to find a way back from it, as we all "come from the same place"...

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  81. inhighheelsMarch 4, 2013 at 5:45 PM

    The only problem is that would require Rumple to die. And he's not dying, so... no Dark Snow.

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  82. DarthLocke4March 4, 2013 at 5:55 PM

    True! Good point, unless there's another way.


    I mean they could do something where they kill him, but we continue to see him in flash backs, but then we also keep exploring this "bringing people back from the dead" aspect and we might get him back another way....Or maybe there's a way to separate the dark one from the dark one with out killing him...Emma??????

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  83. DarthLocke4March 4, 2013 at 6:09 PM

    Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was referring to "Morraine" and not Tamrara.


    (But truth be told we don't know who Tamara really is either!)

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  84. MeatyStakesMarch 4, 2013 at 6:11 PM

    Yeah, but as I said, I like Cora on the Villain sense, expecting that she will be destroyed and everyone will celebrate when she is gone. I'm dissapointed in Regina cause I liked her as a character and hoped for redemption for her.

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  85. MeatyStakesMarch 4, 2013 at 6:12 PM

    Hahahahahahahaha. You wouldn't last a day on the Buffy fandom.

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  86. MeatyStakesMarch 4, 2013 at 6:13 PM

    Yes please!! At least I want to see fanart of it XD

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  87. MeatyStakesMarch 4, 2013 at 6:16 PM

    But there is where she losses me, I just can't forgive all the horrible things she keeps doing just because she might turn on Cora to protect Henry.

    I mean, if she IS already plotting to destroy Cora and this latest descent to darkness is a ruse, I could get behind that. But another flip flop is just tiring and beyond my capacity of forgiveness.

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  88. MeatyStakesMarch 4, 2013 at 6:17 PM

    Nope.

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  89. MeatyStakesMarch 4, 2013 at 6:18 PM

    For Real??

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  90. MeatyStakesMarch 4, 2013 at 6:18 PM

    Seriously, are you trolling me??

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  91. Ralissa VassilissaMarch 4, 2013 at 6:23 PM

    Do you really think you can offend or belittle Evil Regals by labelling us "scary"? Please tell me you see the irony here.

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  92. InvestedInYourFutureMarch 4, 2013 at 6:24 PM

    Suffering is caused by Regina, mostly. But through S1 we have seen that while those people had different lives, behind that life, their true faces would shine through - Mary Margaret was a lot more shy and reserved, but the moment she would come under stress or Regina would appear in front of her - Snow white would shine through, same with others.



    If that is not enough, the whole S2 premiere was all about hammering in that while those two lives are different, its still who they are - David is Charming, having grown up in these circumstances and vice-versa. Sure the character backgrounds they could not select, but the actions they took are they own - taking away that would take away meaning of entire S1 and writers would not do that.



    Its not about remembering who they are. Its about BEING who they are. Their nature, their inherent themselves.


    Mary Margaret was someone who had Snow's moral compass, but could break it because she did not have the baggage Snow carries(since this episode pretty much implies that Snow's morality came from a form of ptsd involving her mother's death - with acting morally right being the way for her to be close to her dead mother)


    The post-curse "hybrid" of MM and Snow is something different entirely - its someone shaped by BOTH experiences. So while it would take HORRIBLE things for Snow White to even consider breaking her moral-reservations, Snow/MM living in Storybrooke is gripping more onto the Storybrooke life of hers, making her able to consider it more easily - she wants to leave FTL in the past behind her and she made it clear multiple times - for her, Storybrooke, is the chance to do thinks [i]differently[/i] now. And she just did exactly that, starting to showcase more of the sides of her we have seen in Heart of Darkness.


    I am not arguing that Snow White is flawless while MM is not - I am saying that Snow White of FTL wants to be flawless far more than Snow White of Storybrooke, who has been fed-up with this whole deal for quite some time. We have seen that young-Snow could be very bratty and different from current snow and we have seen how dark snow can be when everything is taken away from her.



    In a sense, current Snow's dialogue with Regina in the dinner is about her too - She asks Regina on why would one "go back to who he was after trying so hart" - Snow has been trying to uphold her mother's ideals to an insane degree, but she ultimately began feeling that its pointless and only gets her more hurt. So in a sense, just like Regina was relating to MM's position as "criminal" in S1, MM is doing the same towards Regina now - at some subconscious level both of these women are going through the same dilemma.

    And completely agreed with last paragraph - The Snow we have seen in Heart of Darkness is something that is inherent part of Snow White - part that she has been restricting and denying to uphold the ideals of her mother and now that part is free, as snow is accepting it as part of herself, as she has stopped viewing herself as "Good and benevolent snow white of fairytales" and had the very foundations of who she is shaken.

    Whatever becomes of Snow after this, its going to be fascinating in terms of narrative.

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  93. MeatyStakesMarch 4, 2013 at 6:24 PM

    Possibly, but is not "clear as water" We have to wait to know if Regina has truly turned back to her old ways, or is playing Cora.

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  94. stormqueenMarch 4, 2013 at 6:25 PM

    ....same thing. How could Morraine be Cora when that story took place hundreds of years before Cora was born?

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  95. klutzy_girlMarch 4, 2013 at 6:26 PM

    I've been in the Buffy fandom for a long time, actually. And I love Angel, but I definitely consider him having sex with Buffy when she was underage to be statutory rape, too. I loathe the pairing.



    On the other hand, at least Cordy was legal on "Angel" and Angel/Cordy is my OTP for life.

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  96. stormqueenMarch 4, 2013 at 6:26 PM

    No, because we've seen Regina do several selflessly good things. And Snow has done A LOT of bad.

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  97. stormqueenMarch 4, 2013 at 6:27 PM

    What do you mean, nope? Like "lol, sorry your mom just died because of our relationship, Charming, but lets giggle over babies" or "ha, grumpy, smiling bonding time over the corpse of the man you just murdered!"

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  98. Angela RobinsonMarch 4, 2013 at 6:27 PM

    I agree she has been manipulated alot by her mother, and I do feel very sorry for her at times, even more so when she lost her true love. But she has murdered countless people in cold blood... and Snow, Charming, Emma even Henry have given her so many chances and support to stop and to make amends but she still keeps on killing, after this episode I don't see any redemption, even more so when Emma finds out she ripped out Grahams heart and killed him.

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  99. stormqueenMarch 4, 2013 at 6:31 PM

    Wait, when did they give her any chances to stop and she keeps killing? Did I miss an episode?

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  100. MeatyStakesMarch 4, 2013 at 6:32 PM

    Okay, I'm still hoping that Regina is some how trying to turn on Cora and just waiting the perfect moment to strike. I can get behind that, even if it got poor Johanna killed. But if she is just evil, or going to flip flop back, I'm done with her. On the first because her the whole of her reasons to turning back to evil are just stupid (For Henry??) and the second, because she would just be plain weak minded.


    On Snow's front, how dark can she get? It would be really interesting to see the lengths she could go to protect her own and have her retribution; do they make her cross the line and become as evil as Cora?, but I don't think the show is going that route.

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  101. inhighheelsMarch 4, 2013 at 6:55 PM

    They could, but they won't. Bobby confirmed spoilers for 2x22, he said his relationship with Bae/Neal will change and Rumple must be alive for that to happen.
    As for separating the Dark One from Rumple without killing him, I'd very much like to explore that aspect. No idea whether it's possible though.

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  102. Madani BahMarch 4, 2013 at 7:10 PM

    I see a lot of hypocrites here. I ain't even a Regina stan but when Snow, Emma, Whale, and Charming drug Belle and the guy who drove the care it's okay? Yet everything Regina does is wrong? I know Regina is a mess but please. Nobody on this show is anything near perfect.

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  103. DarthLocke4March 4, 2013 at 7:12 PM

    "I am not arguing that Snow White is flawless while MM is not - I am saying that Snow White of FTL wants to be flawless far more than Snow White of Storybrooke, who has been fed-up with this whole deal for quite some time. We have seen that young-Snow could be very bratty and different from current snow and we have seen how dark snow can be when everything is taken away from her."


    From this perspective, I totally agree! I guess I misunderstood you. Sorry.

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  104. ihatetraitorsMarch 4, 2013 at 7:12 PM

    "I think Regina will be the character that's going to die trying to do the right thing" and this is what I fear the most about this show, Regina being the sacrificial lamb, which she would be in a heartbeat if that was needed to save Henry's life, say, from Rumpelstiltskin because he thinks he will be his undoing. I hope in the end Regina doesn't die and it all ends well, everything is forgiven and forgotten between EVERYONE and they're all alive and happy and together and being a family, and Regina finally finds someone who loves her for who she is and not for how powerful she might become.

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  105. DarthLocke4March 4, 2013 at 7:28 PM

    Well, I don't know, because when a parent you just reunited with dies, you could change your feelings about them and how you perceive your relationship. So that sentence could still be applied post death..


    -Even this whole idea of Cora using her daughter to hurt or destroy some purer aspect of Snow White, presents the idea that Cora believes she still can cause Snow's mother pain from beyond grave/or former life..


    Part of the beginnings of the season focused on this idea of 'life beyond death', as the sleeping curse (and the curse) could be percieved as types of [false deaths], as The Sleeping Curse allows those under it's influence to co-exist in an ethereal or pocket universe, and the curse is like a reset or a bridge to reincarnation, Cora had zombies, Dr. Whale brought demented versrions his brother back (flashback) and Daniel back, and Cora told Aurora there is way to get Philip back...My point is maybe there (like LOST) there are people who talked to ghosts and maybe Neverland is related to the after life plots/mythology since, one can stay young forever there...


    All I'm saying is that there might be a way to explore a relationship post death.


    I love Rumple and would hate to see less of him, but considering what the promo said, I could see it being him. - Cora gets Henry, Cora blackmails Regina, Emma, or Snow to kill Rumple, Henry is the foil to Rumple as predicted, Snow gets stabbed by the dagger trying to save Henry...

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  106. C PMarch 4, 2013 at 7:30 PM

    Question is what is your definition of murderer because when people battle in a war or kill in self-defense they're usually not considered murderers. Usually people consider killing in cold-blood or unjustly murder. Some people take the black and white approach vs. the gray though.

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  107. MeatyStakesMarch 4, 2013 at 7:31 PM

    Wow, that's just insane logic.

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  108. MeatyStakesMarch 4, 2013 at 7:32 PM

    Hell no, like, are you delusional, or just painfully biased??

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  109. stormqueenMarch 4, 2013 at 7:35 PM

    Why? You're arguing that Regina didn't care that someone just died, but we've seen the same thing from Snow.

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  110. stormqueenMarch 4, 2013 at 7:44 PM

    I suppose if they were soldiers, rather than royals trying to usurp thrones. But in these instances it was that Snow wanted something and felt like it was more important than the lives of other people. She prioritized her 'happy ending' with Charming over the lives of a whole bunch of people just standing around doing jobs.

    Like, they're clearly almost all killers, but I can't fault them for killing in self-defence, like we've seen quite a few people do. But it is problematic to me that they STARTED these wars and coups d'etat because, as far as we've been shown, Regina and George are meanies to THEM specifically. The world building is so weak on the show that we have no way of knowing what the kingdoms because we only ever see royalty, who after taking over the kingdom, rather than change the system set themselves up as absolute monarchies again.

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  111. inhighheelsMarch 4, 2013 at 7:48 PM

    It's possible, but I must say the reason I believe it will be Cora is very simple: the episode is called the miller's daughter, it will tell Cora's story. The last time we had a confirmed big death, the guy who died was the one the episode was about, Graham. I can see it happening again. Besides, one of the writers tweeted about 2x16 and said Regina would have a moment of utter happiness and a moment of utter unhappiness. It's possible Cora dying is that unhappiness one.


    Trust me, I love your idea. Dark Snow having to deal with the consequences of having all that magic and power would be quite epic, but I just don't find it likely. They'd have to kill Rumple (or come up with a solution for that), which would probably destroy the storyline of his reconnection with Bae, as well as his path to redemption via Belle, and completely change the pace of Snow's relationships with Emma, David, Red, etc. I guess we will get some darker Snow, but not going as far as being the new dark one.

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  112. C PMarch 4, 2013 at 7:48 PM

    That would be awesome. :D

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  113. DarthLocke4March 4, 2013 at 8:00 PM

    Well I think they have been playing with after life themes a great deal this season, so I suspect that 'death' isn't the end of anything, as it wasn't in LOST, However, I hope we more thoroughly explore those concepts and a little sooner. So even though I think Regina has the makings of that kind of character, that perhaps she doesn't have to die, or that corporeal death isn't the end for her, or that she can be saved.

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  114. DarthLocke4March 4, 2013 at 8:08 PM

    I thought at that point where she tells him about the Blue Fairy that Rumple was the dark one already? -If so, then couldn't he already know Cora at this point and couldn't Cora be another type of immortal? Do we know for fact how long people in FTL live verses the rate at which they evolve? I just find Morraine's actions strange, but of course I could be wrong and she's just a strange girl :)

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  115. stormqueenMarch 4, 2013 at 8:27 PM

    Yeah he was already the Dark One but Bae was still 14. If Cora was another type of immortal, she wouldn't age like we know she has.

    But just basing Cora's age on the actress' age, Cora is about 60ish. So Cora wouldn't even be born until 240ish years after Morraine's conversation with Bae.

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  116. Jordana33March 4, 2013 at 8:47 PM

    Regina makes a terrific villain, so I'd hate to see her go. At the same time, I really don't have any sympathy for her, because nothing in her past excuses some of the things that she's done, IMO. And unlike Cora, who doesn't pretend to be anything but evil, Regina is delusional enough to believe that she's actually a good person, and blames others for all the bad things that she's done!

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  117. Jordana33March 4, 2013 at 9:02 PM

    I don't see anything wrong with Snow wanting to kill Cora, given all the harm that Cora has done,,,,like killing her mother and threatening the lives of people she loves. Unlike Snow, who is fighting back to protect others, Regina is just vicious and kills innocents based on misplaced anger (and uses her tough life as a crutch to justify everything bad that she does). She blames Snow for ruining her life (even though Cora is to blame) and reacts by banishing everyone to another land. She blames Snow for believing that she was guilty of murder after Cora framed her, so instead of going after Cora, she uses the incidence as an excuse to go all evil again. There's also a huge difference between screwing up and screwing up by going on a murderous vengeful rampage, which is what Regina does whenever her feelings get hurt. I'd like to think that most people would not do that!

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  118. Jordana33March 4, 2013 at 9:09 PM

    Great episode. Isn't anyone else curious to know what Baelfire will do when he finds out that Rumpel killed his mom? I'm guessing that Hook will fill him in at some point. Or does he already know that? I might have missed that part

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  119. celineMarch 4, 2013 at 10:13 PM

    I just watched the episode and I loved it but now I hate Cora even more. Why did she hate Snow's mother that much? Was it because she wanted to marry the king but he chose snow's mom instead? I didn't get that part. I think Snow's change towards darkest is going to be interesting!

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  120. MeatyStakesMarch 4, 2013 at 11:28 PM

    When did Snow did such thing? And I bet it is hardly the same.

    It's not just not caring that someone dying, but that your very evil mother, the one you are allied with, threw someone out of the window and your response is basically LOL.

    Do you really not see the difference? Are you really comparing Snow to Regina? "They both did the same!" Urgh.

    I don't even like Snow that much, but the bias is just disgusting.

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  121. MeatyStakesMarch 4, 2013 at 11:32 PM

    I hate when people put the legal regulations of their own country as a moral imperative. Even more when we are talking about a undead Vampire, or a immortal-ish individual.

    These are situations that don't have a real life point of comparison, and trying to apply real life parameters is just so... unecessary.

    Like the whole Regina being an adoptive parent. The law means nothing, nothing, when she is the murderous monarch of an alternate reality. I mean, would the adoption agency let her adopt would they been privy of this information?

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  122. lsbloomMarch 5, 2013 at 12:13 AM

    I fail to see how killing mass murderers isn't justice, isn't "good." I will never understand this horribly nonsensical redemption theme. There has to be a point at which it doesn't matter if you are sorry or if you want to change or if you still have a shred of "goodness" in you, justice for your actions should prevail. There is no rehabilitation for Regina or Cora. They are done. Fight them. And Snow should be able to fight without that betraying her inner "goodness" that idea is preposterous. What message does it send if all a powerless "good" can do is lay down and die?

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  123. DarthLocke4March 5, 2013 at 12:13 AM

    Ya , your right. That makes sense. I just wasn't sure if we knew how old Cora really was and given the book's magic and this whole connection to Neverland thing (hook doesn't age) that she could be older than she appears. -But most likely your way makes more sense, despite my distrust of Morraine.

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  124. DarthLocke4March 5, 2013 at 12:16 AM

    Another Valid point I didn't think of! :D

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  125. phnxgrlMarch 5, 2013 at 12:19 AM

    What a game changer this episode is. I loved how Mr. Gold recoiled from Henry and told him he was at fault for what befell him. I loved how Bae revealed that he knew how to sail the Jolly Rodgers. Too Cool! This confirms Bae is Peter Pan. I loved the dark Snow is about to appear thus fulfilling Cora's promise to the dead Queen Snow's mother.

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  126. phnxgrlMarch 5, 2013 at 12:30 AM

    Someone is going have to teach Emma how to control her magic. It cannot be the Blue Fairy either. That leaves Regina, Mr. Gold or Cora. Hmmm I think of those 3 Regina is the most likely candidate. Could this Dark Snow actually be the one to push Emma to harness her power?

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  127. DarthLocke4March 5, 2013 at 12:40 AM

    I'm with MeatyStakes in that these two aren't on equal standing when it comes to their INTENTIONS in relations to their goals and actions. Snow is more altruistic. (not to be confused with perfection) and Regina tends to be more vindictive (not to be confused with unfeeling)

    However, I do think that he Regina hate, although understandable after this episode, is a bit unfair, because as I have said on other posts, this episode also makes light that these two (Regina and Snow) are pawns in twisted game Cora continues to enact to seek some kind of class-war revenge against Snow's mother by corrupting, using, and/or manipulate her daughter to destroy the virtue and purity of Snow White.

    So really between Cora's jealousy and need for revenge and Rumple's belief that Regina was needed to enact the curse, her life has been so full of deception an heartbreak, it's hard to expect her to know or believe in any other kind of version of love.

    These two are on equal standing in terms of being lied to and shaped by the untold truths of their parent's history.

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  128. DarthLocke4March 5, 2013 at 12:41 AM

    I'm all for hell breaking loose! :D

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  129. DarthLocke4March 5, 2013 at 12:53 AM

    Right there is a great point and I think a good story line for Emma and Regina, which is why I do hope Snow somehow goes dark.

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  130. DarthLocke4March 5, 2013 at 1:11 AM

    The Game of Thrones references ('harsh winter') and Mrs Patmore playing a servant yet again, along with Cora-centric upcoming episode title, suggest there is something with "class" going on there. I'm assuming that Cora lost the one she loved, maybe from some kind of accident where she blames Snow's mother....It seems like maybe Cora might have made Regina and Snow re-enact her own paineful experience, because she can't over the loss...

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  131. DarthLocke4March 5, 2013 at 1:19 AM

    Although there's strong case that Bae is Peter Pan (which I think if he can fly would be fun...but god, thinking about trying to get Emma to fly!! :D ), I think he could be a lost boy too.

    I have wondered since the her announcement who Tamara could be. Her name means "Palm Tree"...The only person from Neverland outside of a Mermaid that she could be is Tiger Lily (I kind of hope Bell could be Tinker Bell?), but I think it would be cool if she was just from The Land Without Magic and gets thrown into it all by association. :D

    I m also hoping for Ariel in the finale!!

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  132. FeekkMarch 5, 2013 at 1:41 AM

    Ahhh, OK. That makes sense.

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  133. lsbloomMarch 5, 2013 at 1:47 AM

    Cora and Regina have killed both of Snow's parents. Sent her into exile, put a price on her head, killed to get to her, tried to kill her, then cursed an entire world just to "punish" her for the actions of a guileless child. And that's just in the past. No matter how many chances Snow gives them, they keep coming after her setting her up for murder and killing and torturing innocents to get at her. And those are just Snow's grievances. Every member of FTL that we've met has some Regina screwed me over, raped me, trapped me and left my child to grow up fatherless, sent me to my death story. There is a HUGE difference between Regina's actions and Snow saying I've had enough I'm going to fight back. Mercy isn't justice, mercy is letting more people get hurt, so justice must be done. Cora and Regina need to die. They are too strong to lock up for 400 consecutive life sentences, it is time for capital punishment.

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  134. Dominick GraceMarch 5, 2013 at 1:55 AM

    What a load of crap. This show doesn't have even the most basic understanding of what being good or making the right choice means. It doesn't even have a fairy-tale undetrstandig of it, only an after-school special understanding. The characters are cretins. Sure, let's give a weapon that will allow the evil witch to get control of the most powerful dark maic, therefore giving her the power to destroy us all, in order to save one person--because, of course, our experience tells us that the evil witch will honour her deal and spare that one person--and the life of that one person is worth more than the lives of EVERYONE ELSE--the precise opposite of the lesson Snow should have learned form that candle thing. And these are characters who suppposedly have been major players in wars? You know, those massive armed conflicts where thousands of innocents can die hourly? Utter nonsense. Idiotic plot demands trump logic at every turn. If you can throw Johanna out the window and kill her, why not throw out Snow and Charming too? Then nobody would even know you had the dagger. Instead, let's let them live, even though they have repeatedly managed to overcome the odds and defeat us in the past, though inexplicably without ever killing us.almsot as if they'd never read an actual, you know, fairy tale and know what ought to happen to evil witches.... Getting about ready to stop watching this epicly dumb show.

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  135. inhighheelsMarch 5, 2013 at 7:27 AM

    Well, I'm not going into capital punishment discussion, as much as I'd like to, because that would literally require an entire book to be written. I'm against death penalty, real world or otherwise, so I can't agree with you on that.

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  136. prpleightMarch 5, 2013 at 8:07 AM

    Oh that's a great idea! My appreciation of Rumpelstiltskin would jump by three notches!

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  137. prpleightMarch 5, 2013 at 8:11 AM

    Don't most of us agree taht Cora's lying about Henry...or at least being disingenuous. Killing the rest of Henry's family is NOT by any stretch of the imagination going to make Henry love Regina. Maybe disingenuous is the wrong word. Cora has so little understanding of the concept of love that, perhaps, she really believes this plan will give Regina what she wants. (Though I don't believe Cora really cares about Reginia beyond that she's useful for getting her (Cora) what she wants.

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  138. ThirdofEightMarch 5, 2013 at 12:48 PM

    Yeah, either option would be cool. I suppose it's actually possible that Tamara is someone he brought here with him from Neverland, but I think it's more likely that she's from this world.

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  139. DarthLocke4March 5, 2013 at 1:14 PM

    Yep! If there's one character they haven't let us have much empathy for, it's Cora. They have built her up to be a rather sociopathic women. I'm not saying there couldn't be a reason for Cora being Cora either, but I'm not sure if it's possible to redeem her at this point, but I do suspect something tragic happened to her. I think because she's such a threat, they are forced to have to do something about her...

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  140. lsbloomMarch 5, 2013 at 1:21 PM

    This isn't the real world. This is a world in which a few unequivocally nasty people have no consideration for human life or the rule of law. They need a legal system and since a traditional jail cell can't keep them for as long as they hope to live in solitary confinement so as they no longer hurt people--you kill them. Call it the death penalty, call it common sense, call it Law and Order. It's all pretty much the same to me. They are a threat to all innocent lives. Civilization is based on the idea of the group protecting individual life and rights from the rule of the strong. It's time to act civilized and recognize that justice has a place in battle between "good" and "evil." The writers ignoring that is what is causing all of these silly problems in theme and message.

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  141. DarthLocke4March 5, 2013 at 1:44 PM

    It depends on what justice really is and what goodness really is. We humans feel we need to maintain order and control to "better live" (philosophy/culture).But part of that stems from Beliefs. (Theology, Myth, Philosophy, Religion. Spirituality)

    A lot of places in the world still don't have separation of Church and State and that's because they believe they should not and their acts of Justice are based on those beliefs, which are furthered to include "the role of humanity and the after life".

    Then we also have philosophies like Buddhism where the goal is to eventually become one with the universe and not be reincarnated. So to a Buddhist social justice is about minimizing suffering, as they believe the suffering is the thing that keeps bound to reincarnation. They practice not fearing.

    Some use social justice as means to keep control. The more violence one induces, the more scared others are of you, because we fear death and pain. Some people in act this to protect other people from harm and some do it to prove themselves infallible, because they themselves are scared about the possibility of what could lie beyond.

    So depending on what the universal truth is about life and death, is justice a double edge sword between protecting and power.Is there is A COST for living? And is it "our" Job to decide what that is? And does "ultimately" matter that we "justify"? Who's beliefs are truth and the strongest?

    Since the show is a fantasy that's using fairy tales and cultural myths, we should assume the writers are inclined to go with "something bigger than ourselves" on this, in which they might say something like there really is no evil, only the nature of humanity when they are 'lost' and they can be cleansed and found again elsewhere, or that it just all keeps going on and on until those things are reached.

    I'm just saying it's a weird thing to think about, measurements of deservings and creating crime and punishment when we might all be pray to the inevitable, what ever it is anyways.

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  142. lsbloomMarch 5, 2013 at 1:53 PM

    The idea that society is founded on a rule of law in which at the very least preservation of innocent life is provided for is fairly universal. Social justice and rule of law are very different things. To say this show has shown any coherent messaging regarding good and evil and the place in that dichotomy for justice is stretching things a bit too far in my opinion. And I do feel that that is a major failing, as they keep up this pretense of having something to say. Cora has done unimaginably evil things, not to mention killed a sitting Queen, that's treason, that's mass murder. What does it say about "good" or "justice" to sacrifice the greater good, innocent lives, and any sense of nonreligious-based morality that the ruling party can not dispense with justice or even effectually defend themselves? We are looking at a world where power is absolutism and in modern Western culture we all pretty much agree that's like the worst thing ever. So what are the writer's even saying? Because right now, it's nonsense.

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  143. DarthLocke4March 5, 2013 at 2:21 PM

    You don't understand my meaning. Those stories are about TRUE LOVE being able to conquer all. (Charming and Snow White's love fight to change things over and over again until the time of the curse through out those stories -It's the theme) That LOVE has to win. So the story is saying, we as humans might have to FIGHT for that love, for there ever to be a time peace. But it's love, or a certain kind of love, that makes us better people.


    It's just now the second season put a monkey wrenth on that by saying that even love can create pain. (Regina and her feelings for her mother is another act of Love, despite what it does to everyone else). The question then becomes about Is there a higher LOVE and a life beyond the one(s) we have? Are there infinite chances or places to go where we can have more opportunities to be better? Is death/killing ever an act of Love? Are there "rewards" for doing "the right thing"? and Punishments for doing the wrong? or is it ultimately a moot point because to be human is to be good?

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  144. inhighheelsMarch 5, 2013 at 2:27 PM

    The same can be said about terrorists, yet I'm against death penalty. I don't think this not being the real world is relevant, not in OUAT's case. Besides, they are living in our world right now, even if they're not from here.
    There are hundreds of different theories about civilization, how and why it is based on. The same can be said about theories of justice. We could discuss this forever, but going deeper means turning the thread into a law philosophy argument and this might not be the place for that...

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  145. stormqueenMarch 5, 2013 at 2:34 PM

    But that's not the point I'm arguing. Because OBVIOUSLY their intentions are different, there's just no way to look at that differently.

    What @MeatyStakes:disqus is trying to argue is that Regina standing there while Cora throws Johanna out a window then making a cruel comment is evil because she didn't try to stop it (though it happened so quickly I don't really know what they expected her to do) and then made a comment, whereas I'm saying we've literally seen Snow grinning at someone over a corpse. So where do you make the distinction?

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  146. stormqueenMarch 5, 2013 at 2:37 PM

    I'm not misunderstanding. The idea that True Love conquers all is nice and all and fighting for love is great, but within the original tales that love is heavily accompanied by female subjugation and rape. Within the OUAT stories, even the story of Snow and Charming has them LITERALLY conquering, with part of their ascension and 'happy ending' requiring starting wars and coup d'etats, a lot of killing, etc.

    I don't think the 2nd Season is what put a monkey wrench in the works, since love creating pain is a huge theme throughout the first season.

    I don't really know what 'to be human is to be good' means because ultimately to be human is to be flawed. I assume they want death/killing to be portrayed as acts of love because at this point Charming has a bigger on-screen body count than Regina and he's supposed to be righteous and good.

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  147. stormqueenMarch 5, 2013 at 2:38 PM

    What do you mean 'When did Snow do such a thing?'

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  148. DarthLocke4March 5, 2013 at 2:40 PM

    As a modern American I'm fortunate enough to have separation of Church and State and laws that let me even WRITE or SPEAK about social justice or injustice where many in this world still do not, or would not view it as a privilege, but a crime or sin!

    You have to realize that all of the wars and revolutions of the war are about "changing the landscape" of social justice and thus a society's cultural beliefs on those IDEALS do matter in terms of Law and Order and Crime and Punishment. (Nepolian wanted to bring all the art to France to make Paris the capital of the world, Hitler was a poster boy for a terrorist group that believed God wanted humans to be a Super Race that looked a certain way, Christians and Muslims have been at war forever. Scientists and Free thinkers killed because it defined Theological definitions of God and divinity and seen as a "sin" and heretic because people want to be rewarded when they die so they can go to Heaven. -These things matter to people for some reason).



    Most of these fairy tales don't come from the modern world -They come from a past where THEOLOGY is very present in every day life and law. Once might be making a statement that although humanity's experience of FEAR forces us to protect ourselves, it also is the basis for temptation and corruption. To be human and to feel is too be complicated. -But like these myths and fairy tales they come with an AFTER LIFE pretense that we are all being judged one way or another and what we do "here" might determine "where we go next" and so part of law and order/crime in Punishment has to do with the grappling of do we or don't we believe in higher power, higher judgement, or is this all there is? -Either way it breaths fear....


    It's true ONCE hasn't made it clear what the their final say on this is, but it does seem to be gearing towards after life placement, since immortality and back from the dead was introduced as ideas this season. We probably won't know what way to take love and justice until the ending, which is how they will determine to us their definition of "what a happy ending is" and if it will include everyone...

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  149. stormqueenMarch 5, 2013 at 2:40 PM

    Even though they've stated that Cora really does love Regina truly?

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  150. stormqueenMarch 5, 2013 at 2:52 PM

    It's really funny that you mention Elizabeth McGovern because seeing Rena in costume, that is EXACTLY who I thought she looked like.

    I do find it interesting that Regina was basically playing the role of Evil Henchman #1 for Cora in their scenes though. She barely spoke, she just did as she was told. I don't know if that means she doesn't have a real commitment to going back to evil (yet, because I think her becoming completely unhinged is coming with Cora's inevitable death) or if she's just realizing how very messed up Cora's actions are. Maybe sessions with Archie are paying off?

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  151. DarthLocke4March 5, 2013 at 3:02 PM

    I agree with Meatystakes with that because Regina was confronted with a choice and not doing something when you have the opportunity to, is still a choice.

    I agree we have seen Snow shown lack of compassion on few occasions, but in comparison the distinction with this issue lies on AMOUNTS of these instances in relation to "the goal" (or beliefs) of each character. Snow may have relinquished a bit of joy from one death or another after a battle, but it is not the same as seeking mass murder as means for revenge in order to please onself. Snow would be Queen and Regina never coherst into being more vindictive, we can imagine that there would be little murdering or war on Snow White's behalf. And most people would agree that less murder is a good a thing. (although the final message might be forgiveness)

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  152. DarthLocke4March 5, 2013 at 3:24 PM

    Agreed. Well said!

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  153. stormqueenMarch 5, 2013 at 3:33 PM

    Obviously there was a choice in whether or not to participate in the blackmail, but I think the murder happened to quickly for Regina to necessarily stop it.

    That's just it for me though, where do you draw the line? Obviously seeking to kill multiple people for your own ends isn't good and Snow is far, far less guilty of it than Regina, but in the case of attacking George's castle, we saw very clear prioritizing of her wants and needs above the lives of the people that were killed, which I find to be very similar to Regina's current predicament. Clearly miles apart from her desire to kill them out of misguided revenge from before, but not necessarily that far from what we see in Apple Red as Blood. The circumstances are different, obviously, but what it boiled down to was "These people are preventing me from being with the person I love and if they die, that's fine."

    I am actually desperate for the show to do an 'It's a Wonderful Life' episode that asks what would happen if X event didn't happen. Like, let's say Regina never falls to vengeance, does that mean she remains permanently in an abusive situation with Leopold? Does Snow go towards the darker, selfish side we've seen from a lot of the royal families because she never meets Charming? Do they end up in the same position in Storybrooke because Rumple just manipulated different people into the Regina/Snow/Emma positions? Does it actually result in less killing, since we've seen that Regina is far from the only person instigating death. Like, does Ruby continue to kill people unknowingly? Does George have more people killed than just the ones we've seen? Does a war still break out between kingdoms? Do people continue to get killed in ogre wars? I mean, just taking Regina out of the equation doesn't negate the massive amounts of death.

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  154. Dominick GraceMarch 5, 2013 at 3:43 PM

    Yeah, the one thing they didn't do is fling her out a window to her death in the most recent episode ... because why? That would be the logical thing to do, but oops, that would also kill off a major character. Why let logic interfere with the series going on?

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  155. Folie-lexMarch 5, 2013 at 6:14 PM

    It was very Snow centric and that never my favourite thing, but it was an okay episode.

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  156. DarthLocke4March 5, 2013 at 6:28 PM

    But you hit nose on the head. Humanity isn't perfect and we might always have to work to change to be better, but just because something, in comparison to what we know or believe to be better in the now, verses what we didn't know to be bad then, doesn't mean that there wasn't anything GOOD about the world that they came from, because Snow's beliefs of changing it or finding a sense of "fairness" are what are morally correct about it. It's just that the show is about working to achieve that sense of goodness. But if Henry embodies anyone it is Snow White and so he got the right moral because he clearly identified with her and realized he is her grandmother...

    IMO in season one it's not as clear about the color shading, because the writers more or less set up Good verses Evil premise, where the lines of those things are not as blurred as they are in season two (hence all of this discussion on morality and justices and definitions of good and bad and deservance).



    I think it's implied that Regina has killed more people than we have seen her have (especially when we also consider that her whole back story hasn't been told/shown to the viewer. -But that goes both ways) And then there's how to take the curse: A death sentence, or a blessing in disguise?


    As for Charming, again it's a social justice issue, because it's a debate if defending love on the defensive (Regina engaged in war) is justifiably more acceptable, then love on the offensive? The truth is they are still learning (which may be what we are "here" to do) -As I said on another post we may not know the truth of justice socially or spiritually until we get to the end to see what a happy ending is in the writers eyes and if everyone is together in this happiness or not.


    It's really really then if we can judge if Henry's awaking of Storybrooke and knowing the stories in them are morally correct and/or leading to a greater good.

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  157. stormqueenMarch 5, 2013 at 6:52 PM

    I don't know. I could debate that there is very, very little good in the world they came from. Whereas some of the things that are good are also found in our world, the things that make that place a cesspool are unique.

    i agree that Henry and Snow are both really alike in that they are both incredibly naive. Both are willing to overlook all their own failings and put the blame on others, to justify their actions. Like, completely separate from any of Regina's actions, just leaving those out entirely, we've seen Henry lie and manipulate to suit his needs but right now he's spent two episodes throwing temper tantrums that someone did the same to him.

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  158. stormqueenMarch 5, 2013 at 7:06 PM

    Sorry, it posted before I was ready. You're right that the implication is that she's killed more people than that, however, it is interesting to me that the only people we've seen her kill have been either while being chased (the guards in Wonderland), Graham, her father, and random sacrifice girl and two of them we're set up to have an emotional connection to, to feel the power behind that. Certainly she's had people killed before but it makes me curious why she felt she had to go the long way with Snow. Her guards were hunting Snow actively after she escaped the Huntsman, so why bother hiring the Huntsman in the first place? Why not kill Leopold herself if it was only the presence of the Genie and the Agrabah vipers that pointed to him, not eye witnesses?

    I don't agree that we can't see the truth of justice spiritually or morally until the end and the 'happiness' because the entire premise of that is a lie. There is no such thing as a happy ending. There is happiness, sure, but endings are by their very nature unhappy because that is what endings are. If you stop the story when Charming wakes Snow up, then there's a happy ending, but we know that a ton more stuff happens. If everything settles down and they live an idyllic, happy life, there is no guarantee that someone doesn't get in a car crash and die. So it's really hard to hinge anything on how they end the show unless every single one of them ends up dead and in heaven. Even then, you inevitably end up with a Problem of Susan.

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  159. lsbloomMarch 5, 2013 at 10:00 PM

    I think even without the concept of a religious-based morality, there are certain things that we all pretty much agree are awful--Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, we'll all get together and say nope, nothing redeemable there. And I really feel that mass murder, the kidnap and torture of an entire population (which still continues to this day) are pretty universally evil. They are in fact drawing from fairytales which have both very clear moralities and a long-standing tradition of being didactic stories. Those messages have been lost in these versions--take Beauty and the Beast, it's not someone learning about inner beauty it's about basically stockholm syndrome. The writers really feel like they are lost. For all the bluster about subverting fairytales they haven't really done so in any definitive way and the messages they have created are either muddy or concerning.

    I will give you that if they have a belief in eternal judgment and/or some sort of afterlife concept it could have ramifications on the how justice is determined. However, I don't think we've seen anything of that being part of their belief system (fairy nuns not withstanding). Death is a pretty big deal and bringing people back is a big no-no. There have been no religious figures or places. And no discussion of where people go when they die even with all the death and it's affect on children, who would benefit from that sort of theological explanation if it were an underpinning of their society.

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  160. DarthLocke4March 6, 2013 at 12:41 AM

    Ok, but what if the point is: "the pool is muddy" because that is what human is? Then the writers are NOT going to give a clear cut definitive or distinct answer to what right and wrong is, but instead that there can be hope for most of us...

    Cora told Aurora that she can get Philip back, The Sleeping Curse and the co-existence of a counter part within an ethereal plane/pocket universe may be a type of false death and relate to many states of death itself, Cora was able to rise and use dead bodies (Zomblies), Dr Whales attempts of bring others back (which also resulted in zombie-esque versions of people), The idea that one can live without their heart in there bodies is a defiance of "our" quantum mechanics, Rumple transforming into the Dark Once could also be a type of death

    Additionally we see in this episode and in Regina's sad attempts to retrieve Daniel, l(ike LOST and Super 8), there is a belief in "Letting Go" . And then the Fairy and Dwarf love episode (Nova and Dreamy/Grumpy) suggests that "there is work to do".

    Eastern Philosophy Motifs: Asian writing on the Wall in "Tallahassee" flashback scene + Mulan + Philip being "transformed" into a beast and back might also then play to " Dharma, Karma, and universal beliefs in one role and the shifting of roles.

    And there are Wraiths (used with Asian Gold Coin) that "suck souls" (so they believe in a "soul"). Wraiths are Celtic derived word for GHOSTS, Spirits, and/or Specter.

    The Curse itself can also be perceived as a type of reincarnation, as death in some cultures is a state of transition or change as a means to "spiritually" progress.

    The Blue Fairy (and Fairy's) counterpart(s) of being NUN's ("Mother Superior") also suggest a role of a guide in relation to higher purpose, which again relates to after life and placement. ("Let your CONSCIENCE be your guide" --suggests we "need" guidance for a reason...)

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  161. DarthLocke4March 6, 2013 at 12:52 AM

    The writers actually said the characters are working towards a happy ending at Paley Fest the other day, but what that is going to be is still up for debate until we get there, because surely we are not all going to agree with their definition of a happy ending. The made a point that we're exploring "how" they get there.

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  162. Dor FidererMarch 6, 2013 at 12:50 PM

    I don't understand... August is not Gold's son?

    ReplyDelete

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