Hey there all you wayward sons and daughters, welcome back to the Team Winchester Podcast. Up for discussion this week is episode 8.14: Trial and Error. This episode is filled with quite a few shocks (something that Dahne says renders Lilith speechless). Despite it being an Andrew Dabb episode the gals are upbeat. So, sit back, relax and enjoy!
Disclaimer - As always the opinions on this podcast are merely Lilith and/or Dahne's opinions. They do not reflect the fandom as a whole or SpoilerTV.
Podcast Break-Down (All times are estimated):
Intro & Small Talk
News (Ratings, Fan Reaction, Critic Reaction) - 4:50
Contact Info - 17:10
Discussion Points - 18:45
Nitpicks - 23:30
WTH - 30:00
Favorite Things - 35:50
Least Favorites - 46:35
Music / Trivia - 59:10
Grade and Review - 62:25
Plugs - 67:40
Spoilers - 72:10
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This episode had some of the best brother moments of the season and one of the worst cases of the week. You win some; you lose some. At least the brothers were outstanding this episode and I can officially say that we have Supernatural back! Woo hoo!
ReplyDeletethe acting from the guest stars left a lot to be desired I'm afraid to say and the frankly god awful lines they were given didnt help much either. I'll be happy if we never see a single one of them again.
ReplyDeleteBut yes the brother scenes were all excellent. Sam, Dean and Kevin good, everyone else bad.
Interesting podcast as usual.
ReplyDeleteThe core of the episode was of course the brother relationship and the trials.
The brothe moments were wonderful so nothing to add except that they should have happened from episode one!
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While I have never liked the closing of Hell story-arc which I find very weak, I initally thought the idea of the trials was cool, al la Hercules; and as Lilith mentioned, the cleaning out of the stables was a throw back to that as was kiling the hell-hound, but having to appoint exclusively one brother or the other to carry them out was just EVIL on Carver's part!
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I see the brothers as a team, and I love it when they work things out together. This could have been a great opportunity to have them doing these trials together.
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Wouldn't it have been better if on the tablet it was written that it would need two persons simultaneously to carry out each trial.successfully? There could have been a line like needing "the right hand of the Elder and the left hand of the Younger" or something.
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Crowley could have found out and tried to kidnap one of the brothers to keep the duo from doing so, with the other brother going to the rescue; both boys could have got the arm-glowing and both could have started to lose their strength.
There were a hundred different ways to include both brothers but as we have seen, Jeremy Carver seems to thrive on useless brother against brother angst. He obviously sees that as the priority for Supernatural!
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The rest of the episode was rather boring and the dialogue cringe-worthy in some places.
The Dallas-clone family couldn't have been more clichèd and Ellie was way over the top. Compare the attempt at 'seduction' by Ellie to that of Anna in season Five; fallen angel beats human any day!
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Another thing I hadn't realised I was missing is the physicality between the brothers.
In the earlier seasons, when one was wounded or hurt, the other would dive over and hang on to him or pat him over to assess his wounds or pull him up.
When Sam killed the hell hound, I was waiting for him to rush over to Dean and be all worried about his wound but of course with the brothers' new maturity they don't do things like that now. We don't even get a shoulder bump any more!
While I'm generally in favor of splitting things up, splitting the hell trials wouldn't have left things balanced. We just got off a 2 1/2 year Purgatory mytharc (assuming it's over), in which Sam played almost no role. Even Cas and Bobby were tied more to Purgatory than Sam was. We also have a second part of the mytharc developing - what's going on with Cas, Naomi, and the other angels. Given his relationship with Cas, Dean is sure to play a much larger role in that part of the story. So I see the decision to make the Hell portion focus more on Sam as bringing back a little balance that has been missing for a few years now.
ReplyDeleteI'm annoyed with the fighting in the fandom as well. I didn't like the tension between Sam and Dean in the first half because it didn't feel organic. But on the other hand, I don't want the showrunners to compromise the story to placate the fandom. There's a symmetry to Sam's story focusing on Hell and Dean's on Heaven. The fandom is going to have to deal with it.
It was a big dichotomy. I thought the guest actors were way over the top too.
ReplyDeleteWow, I don't think I have ever disagreed with you more. The last 2.5 years did not tie Dean to the mytharc at all. As far as stories that propel the overarching story forward, Supernatural hasn't had a real Dean tie to mytharc since the first part of season 5. For me it breaks down like this. Season 1 involved both brothers leaning more towards Sam since the two main mytharc stories were finding John and Sam's visions. Sam had season 2. Dean had the unavoidably shortened season 3. Season 4 was both equally. Season 5 started as both but when Adam stepped in it ended up Sam. Season 6 was divided equally between what's wrong with Sam and what's wrong with Cas with the neutral Eve thrown in the middle. Season 7 was neither and that was one of the biggest problems with the Leviathan story arc. It didn't directly tie into either brother.
ReplyDeleteAs for the future, we don't know what will happen or if it will involve 3 trials at all and from what Jeremy Carver was saying it sounded like the angel tablet is more Cas-focused. I am NOT saying that both brothers haven't been equally important in ALL seasons because they have. It's just the problem with not splitting the hell trials is that it continues the prevailing feeling that Sam has the mytharc and Dean has the point of view feeling. By this time it seems like all sides of the fandom would be more than happy to switch it up. By keeping established patterns going, both sides of the fandom are indeed going "to have to deal with it" - including people who complain about Dean having the point of view and more interaction with the guest characters. This seemed like a good year to break those patterns, starting by the sensible sharing of the trials.
Nothing about making the trials having to be done by one person makes any sense to me. Not just from a "this story is about the brothers fighting evil together" foundation but also because it makes no sense for God to stipulate only one person can do it. Also if one person starts it and then dies, does that mean that humanity is screwed from that point on? I was all excited about the trials from the beginning but now they are just a point of contention and again it does not seem to be for any good reason except to cause issues in the fandom.
ReplyDeleteAs for the physicality, I also was puzzled about when Sam didn't immediately go and check Dean to see how bad it was or at least Dean asking if Sammy was alright. I'm taking it that Sam did check and Dean did ask but they cut that part out for the commercials. Unfortunately I think that would have been worth the extra 45 seconds it would have taken and would have made this episode stronger.
I can see how the last couple of years wouldn't be completely satisfying for Dean fans, but comparitively speaking, I think Dean has had much stronger ties to the Purgatory mytharc than Sam. In season 6, he was the hero of the story with the POV, he killed Eve (Eve was directly connected to the hunt for Purgatory), and then when the Cas/Crowley plot was revealed, the focus was on Dean and Cas, not Sam and Cas. While Sam had other things going on, he was not connected at all to Purgatory - and we're talking about connection to the mytharc here, not side-storylines like post-Hell trauma or domestic relationships.
ReplyDeleteIn season 6, Sam seemed mostly indifferent to the Leviathans while Dean took Bobby's death harder and became obessed with killing Dick. Dean did kill Dick and got sucked into Purgatory, a development that was explored heavily in the first half of this season. I'm not saying Dean fans have to love Dean's storyline, but Purgatory and the Purgatory tablet were always much more connected to Dean than Sam.
As for not knowing what the future will bring - true. But I'm willing to bet that any storyline that involves Cas is going to have much more Dean involvement than Sam involvement. Sam has to have something to do. We don't know that there will be trials on the side of the angel tablet, or even that Sam and Dean will want to close off Heaven, but there's obviously some plot developing with Naomi and the Heaven tablets. Cas will probably have a deeper involvement than Dean because he's a supernatural creature, but on the Hell side, Crowley and Kevin will probably have a deeper involvement than Sam. We also don't know what type of involvement Dean will have in the closing-of-Hell part of the story. He may have a lot more than people are assuming right now.
About this: "both sides of the fandom are indeed going "to have to deal with it" - including people who complain about Dean having the point of view and more interaction with the guest characters." Respectfully disagree. There's a big, big problem with the show abandoning writing for and promoting one of the two leads. You can disagree, but that's how I see it. And this isn't paranoia either. I went to rewatch a couple of SPN episodes through Comcast On Demand the other day, and there were four recent SPN episodes listed. The two actors credited for each were as follows:
- LARP and the Real Girl - Jensen Ackles, Felicia Day
- As Time Goes By - Jensen Ackles, Gil McKinney
- Everybody Hates Hitler - Jensen Ackles, Hal Linden
- Trial and Error - Jared Padalecki, Jensen Ackles
I see the complaining of Dean not having the mytharc to be equally valid to the complaining of Sam not having the POV or guest star connection and felt that you were slagging Dean mytharc issues as just certain fans complaining to complain. Hence my comparison. I actually think all 3 are huge, valid issues that need to be rectified. Comcast idiocy notwithstanding.
ReplyDeleteAs for the mytharc, I don't see having a peripheral tie to the main mytharc as being the same as being tied to the mytharc. Dean has been peripherally tied to all mytharc, some seasons more than others, and in my opinion Sam has been too. I also disagree about there being a hero in season 6. Dean might have killed Eve but she wasn't the real problem. My biggest concern is that much of Dean's connection to mytharc in this series has been worrying over/dealing with someone else directly tied to the mytharc, whether it be Sam or Cas. Sharing the trials would have been a great way to connect both brothers directly to the action of the mytharc but instead we've got the same old same old. I have no doubt that Dean will have something to do in the trials but mainly it will be protecting and worrying about Sam if the pattern holds. (Same is most likely if Cas has to deal with the angel tablet next season.) It would be nice if they could start to balance out both brothers in mytharc, POV, and interactions and I am sorely disappointed that this is not the direction they have taken in any of the 3 this year.
See I don't see it as humanity being screwed, if the person doing the trials fails. I think due to the past three seasons where humanity as a whole was possibly on the line as genocide victim, cannon fodder or food stuff that we are seeing closing the gates of hell as an it or the world task. It is however a way for Kevin to get out and a way to stop demons walking the earth so lessening the load for hunters and the few humans who get hurt by demons. But if the gates don't close the world will go on just as it is with Kevin sitting on that boat too frightened to go out.
ReplyDeleteAlso there are more hell hounds the spell is only words so can be said many times.
I didn't want to sound dismissive, but there is a faction of the online population (not saying you) who would like Sam completely shut out of the main plot. They would be perfectly happy to see Sam's only storyline be a domestic relationship, or see Sam shut away in a library while Dean does the hunting. I guess the idea is that Sam should never again have a story because years ago Sam had the demon blood storyline.
ReplyDeleteMy initial reaction was a response to the idea that giving Sam no role, or only a split role with one of the three tablets, is not balance. Again, I'm not accusing you of advocating for this. I'm just pointing out that Sam had really no connection to the Purgatory tablet (other than being it's guardian for about five seconds - until he dropped it to chase after Meg) and will likely have almost no connection to the angel tablet. If the Hell trials were split evenly, and Sam again took the backseat in the Cas/angel storyline, the show would continue to be very lopsided.
I won't watch the show without both brothers. That's how it started. That's how it needs to end. I think most fans feel this way although I know the small, very vocal faction you speak of. I am also NOT a fan of this current "Sam is the brains; Dean is the brawn" focus the story has taken since both of them are both brains and brawn. For me the Winchesters are a team and as such I want to see them both be a vital part of the mytharc and the storytelling. I most certainly do not want to see Sam locked up in the Factory of Answers researching while Dean has a rotating cast of annoying characters riding shotgun in the Impala on hunting gigs. That's not Supernatural.
ReplyDeleteI guess I have less faith in Jeremy Carver than you do. I do not think the angel tablet will be Dean's story anymore than Purgatory was, and yes, we see seasons 6 and 7 vastly different. I think it will primarily be Cas' story with the brothers making nice spectators. I also don't believe that Sam will be shut out of the heaven tablet story any more than Dean is. Sam has his own issues with angels too and I don't see why Dean being friends with Cas would make closing heaven any less relevant to Sam. The mytharc would be the same although the emotional story might be more on Dean's side if closing the gates effects Cas. Although I think that too will be more of a Cas thing, with him possibly having to make a choice. Mytharc-wise, if it even has a trial component, it would make more sense for Dean and Sam to do these trials together too. Quite honestly though, I doubt the heaven tablet will contain 3 trials at all. I think the powers that be would find that redundant and the whole heaven tablet thing will end up played on a way higher plane than the brothers' grasp, especially if Crowley makes it past this season. I could see this becoming another angel vs demons story with both sides mortally wounded.
My ideal is that they have 3 tablets - heaven, hell, and Purgatory, which I don't think is done like most people do. They all contain trials. The brothers do all the trials together. That make a whole lot of sense to me and it centers the mytharc on the brothers. Of course the first tablet on Purgatory had nothing to do with trials as we know it so far. After all, the Leviathan tablet just told them how to get rid of one Leviathan and the spell can't be used again. That's hardly closing the gates forever. If that really was the Purgatory tablet I will be sorely disappointed and even less thrilled in the current, only one brother can participate in the trials plan than now.
I agree; Sam and Dean checking out each other's well-being after the hell-hound would have made that scene much better.
ReplyDeleteSometimes actions speak louder than words. ;)
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Instead of Kevin getting over two minutes of groundhog time, we could
have got the after-math of the hell-hound scene instead.
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In the first ten episodes when Carver wanted us to see how the brothers 'hated' each other he didn't hold back on making us understand it with a series of scenes and anvils in repetition.
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The brothers have always been physical, whether in a good way or bad, going from pats on the back to hauling each other up to punching each other out.
It's part of how they connect and shouldn't be ignored by the writers.
I kind of like your ideal of three tablets all with trials for the both brothers and like you I am losing faith in Carver because of this mess and can't possibly see how Dean can link into the supposed Angel tablet that has yet to turn up.
ReplyDeleteAs for the half a hell tablet they have I would have liked Dean to do the trials not because I think it is overdue for Dean to have a centre myth role but because if we are supposedly again going to have the whole 'Dean views this job as a suicide mission' (which during his speech I felt he was being pragmatic rather than suicidal) he should have some role that can prove to him that he has his own self worth not have to gain self worth through the actions of someone else who he states is the brains.
This Sam doing the trials in part to take Dean with him to the end of the tunnel comes off as trite and doesn't work for me unless the end game of it is for Sam to fail in the trials and realise that Dean's coming round to wanting to be part of the world as is was something that Dean was doing anyway just at his own pace (what with the room and finding the tomatoes on his own rather than being dragged round a farmer's market when he wasn't in the mood).
That is the only thing I can see worth while about this arc - Sam letting go of the idea that he can fix Dean when Dean is supposedly down. If that is the case maybe it is linked to the whole idea of perception that Carver was talking about at the beginning of the season. Though what Dean is supposedly doing other than mopping Sam's brow I don't know.
As for the closing of hell itself - what happens after? I know it was a throw away line but what if souls after death can't pass down to hell? Does that mean Ellie gets stuck on earth or does she go to purgatory? A place which doesn't want human souls to the point it has portals to eject them even if they are being piggy backed by monsters as seen with Benny and Dean. Does that mean we will have a proper purgatory arc seeing how even though in the background has never actually been more than a setting for comings and goings
ITA to your entire post, especially this...
ReplyDelete"...he should have some role that can prove to him that he has his own self worth not have to gain self worth through the actions of someone else who he states is the brains."
Dean needs to be the one who, through his actions, makes the choice to live because he can finally see himself as someone who is valuable and worthy enough to deserve his life. It can't be through someone else's actions. It can't be just because Sam wants Dean to realize his worth. It has to be because DEAN finally realizes his worth and is willing to ACT and fight for his own life.
And the current scenario the show has constructed with Sam doing the trials so that Dean won't risk his own life, will not accomplish this for Dean. I really and truly hope the show has other plans for Dean to allow him to finally realize that his life is worth living, not just because he's Sam's brother, but because he's Dean Winchester.