Hi, I'm back again for another installment of the wild and wonderful world of shipping. The response to the introductory column has been beyond my wildest dreams, so enlightening and so full of thoughtful and varied opinions, and I just have to say THANK YOU!! I've learned so much from everything you had to say -- what is and isn't OK with you, how you wish things could to be, what elements appeal to and disgust you -- and all of these are valid viewpoints and I hope to be able to address a lot of them as the weeks go by. In the meantime, please continue to comment! All viewpoints are welcome, but please try to respect each other's right to disagree. I'm reading and listening to everything.
So today let's start at the beginning. Why does shipping happen?
It's a conundrum that baffles the non-shippers. TV is a passive medium. We watch it. We don't interact with it, like we do with video games. To reach back, to say "things are one way, but they should be another," seems counterintuitive. We're trusting entertainers to take us on a journey, to tell us a story, and it's fun to be carried away by that story. So why push back, why change the story? And why concentrate so hard on the romantic-pairing aspect? Isn't it enough to enjoy a TV show without feeling you need to change it in your own mind? And why is even that not enough these days -- why start pushing for your ships to be acknowledged on the show?
The answer, in short, is that we've gone interactive.
Interactivity has reached almost every aspect of our culture. The Internet has connected celebrities to fans, creators to consumers, and creative minds to one another in an unprecedented way. And it's not just the Internet. The advent of video games turned us from a world that sat in front of our TVs to watch things into a world that got to participate in the action, to make decisions and choose our own endings. Increasingly, it's no longer enough for many of us to be passively entertained. It's about not just being engaged but engaging back. And that effect doesn't apply only to new media -- it's also reaching into those forms of media that don't explicitly invite it.
Some shows have found ways to initiate that interaction. "The Walking Dead" has a number of video game spinoffs, from casual Facebook games to serious console shooters. Web series like "Ghostfacers" or "Teen Wolf: Search for a Cure" spring up as spinoffs to successful TV shows to give the fans more of what they crave. And "Sherlock" has a real-life version of John's blog and Sherlock's website, which fans can interact with as though they can access the characters. So TV is keeping up with the times in finding ways to go interactive, but the very nature of interactivity is that it goes both ways. And so fans are finding their way to initiate interactivity, too.
One of my favorite articles about interactive fandom and fan fiction is "The Boy Who Lived Forever," published in Time magazine in 2011. It's a comprehensive, respectful look at the world of fan fiction, shipping included, but for me the money quote is the following:
I love the show, but what if it went further? What happens if I press this big, shiny, red button that says "Do not press"?
It was a way to bring to light hidden subtexts that the show couldn't address.
Interactive portions of TV shows that are licensed by the creative minds behind the shows must stay within the confines of a reality that's rigidly drawn. But fan-created works aren't similarly limited. And so they are about -- and glory in -- breaking down walls, seeing what happens when those lines (not just those drawn by canon but by the society that is their foundation) go from black-and-white to gray. And when so very many of the taboos in our society are related to sexuality -- not just sexual orientation but how we define acceptable relationships and social rules as to when sex and love can conceivably happen -- shipping is a way to press the biggest, shiniest red button on the whole console.
And it turns out that, when you push boundaries, the world starts to change to meet you. Just look at the public turnaround on the issue of gay marriage. According to a Pew survey, support has risen from 37 percent in 2009 to 48 percent in 2012, and opposition has slid from 54 percent to 43 percent in the same amount of time. Those are huge jumps, and a lot of it has to do with the increasing connectivity of the world, where people are increasingly coming into contact with aspects of life that were kept hidden and invisible for a long time.
So it is with shipping. It's a way to make visible the desire to push boundaries and change the world and the media we're involved with. It's a way to say, look at these two characters, look at how the world says they can be only friends, or only enemies, or only something else entirely. But what if they weren't? Would it be exciting to explore that? And sometimes the answer is yes, and sometimes it's no. And sometimes it varies based on the person who's interacting. In the end, it's all about wanting to help shape the world, be it a fictional world or the real one.
(I want to make clear here that I'm not equating shipping with the gay rights movement in scope or importance, nor am I trying to draw any relationship between the two. The point here is to say, "Here's a movement that found that the more visible it was, the better a reaction it got over time... and here's another." Their trajectory is similar. Any other relationships between the two are another topic for another time.)
There's one more reason I'd like to mention about why shipping is such a huge draw for some fans, and that has to do with love. Not love between characters but love for them. We talk about TV, we get upset and worked up about what we see there, we come to forums like SpoilerTV, because we love the characters. They are part of our extended family, and despite their being fictional, but we love them just the same. And one of the things we want most for the people we love is for them to find love. Especially in a situation where they have a different hardship to overcome, a different monster to fight or a different betrayal to cope with every time we see them. So we ship to bring a little more love and light into that world, to mitigate our own empathy for how much darkness and pain can seem to rain down on the characters we care about. We ship because we want them to find happiness.
Why do you ship? What's the appeal? Sound off in the comments.
Its just another way for shows to feel tangible. Its a reason to feel as though you're a part of the show - being on social media sites help that, especially over the last 4 or 5 years. There's a hundred years to ship a show or a couple, it just allows the audience to feel that they have a piece of the show in their back pocket, that we're part of it some how. With things like Twitter it gives the audience a chance to interact with the creators or stars of the show, we can tell them first hand how we feel and they can respond and help support that.
ReplyDeleteThank you for providing a safe space to discussing shipping.
ReplyDeleteAs I said in the previous article, shipping for me is expressing my love for characters I can see in a relationship. For me, it is a way to express that I could see these characters finding happiness. Together. I'm a Destiel shipper who has seen the chemistry between the actors, who has interpreted their interaction in a certain way and who thought "yes these two would make each other happy"
That's why I ship. Because I get invested in these characters and their relationship. Because they matter and because I hope that they will find each other.
I have only one "ship" and it's Dean & Castiel's relationship on Supernatural. I can't speak for all shippers, but to me, shipping is about interpretation and potential. I'm not really in it for fanfiction or porn, I first and foremost love their canon relationship and want to see it expanded in canon. To me, shipping is a way of adding dimension to the chemistry I see on screen, an exploration of the potential I'm invested in. Sometimes it's not possible to do that in the actual show, and the fandom provides that.
ReplyDeleteI'm interested in how other people perceive shipping, because to me it was always about wanting two characters to get together on the show. For example, I've never read fanfiction on Mulder & Scully, Doctor and Rose, Olivia & Peter Bishop, but for all intents and purposes I shipped them hard, just as much as I do Dean and Castiel.
There are a lot of reasons in which 'fanfiction' doesn't even have to have to take place since it is a product of shipping (and also the method)
ReplyDeleteBut let's see here, why do I ship?
Mostly, it's because the story will make sense. Because it is interesting to see and predict the possibility of two characters.
Sometimes, it's because you are in a community. And people around you are passionate enough to spend their energy on 'shipping' then you can't help but admiring and playing along until one point, you have become a shipper. A member of a community. You think like others, and it is very enjoyable.
I think 'shipping' is wishing, praying, and hoping because you see that something good could happen out of this ship, and it would a shame if it does not (cue fanfiction)
Finally, real life has ups and downs. Shipping is safer and hey, if my favorite characters cannot find true love in their fictional world, I will lose my faith in the real one and its media.
First of all, thank you to spoiler tv for taking the steps to including a section devoted to shipping and shippers. It’s not every day that we shippers feel welcomed online. :)
ReplyDeleteYou pose a great question, which I’ll try to answer to the best of my abilities since I’m a huge shipper. I’ve shipped couples since I was a kid. The first couple I shipped was from the comics when I was about 7 years old (Clois – Lois & Clark). As a teen, I also shipped couples on television (MSR – Mulder & Scully; Bangel – Buffy & Angel). And now as an adult in my 20s, I still ship characters that capture my attention from current shows (Destiel – Dean & Castiel).
Why does shipping happen?
As with anything wonderfully complex as relationships, shipping happens for a lot of reasons.
On the surface, it seems to happen most commonly because of chemistry. People respond to the chemistry they see between two people onscreen and get enthralled by it. Similarly to how a story can enrapture us, so can the story being told by the body language between two characters (or actors). We ship because we see something there, potential for a relationship, potential for love.
And there isn’t anything greater in this world than love, is there? So why wouldn’t people want to lose themselves in love and romance through shipping?
On a deeper level, I also feel that shipping allows people to do what any good story does: It allows us to experience a relationship vicariously. We get to be swept off our feet through these two characters we ship. We get to experience and imagine a beautiful relationship.
Doing this gives us joy and happiness.
Not everyone leads a perfect existence so having this type of escapism allows us to continue on with our less than perfect lives.
Shipping also gives us the opportunity to open ourselves up through discussion and fan community where we get the chance to share our thoughts and ideas as well as our creative works (fanfiction, fanart, meta, etc). Shipping a couple online is the fastest way to find an online family. It’s just very easy to be in love with a ship and then find a fellow “shipmate” and start a discussion and continue that discussion for weeks and months. Some people have long standing relationships in the fandom that have gone one for years. We meet up at conventions or even set up RL meet-ups.
Nowadays, shipping also has its own little world and language. People joke about proposing to real people by saying things like, “I ship you and me together.” Or “Will you be my OTP for life?” and we love joking about finding “The Dean to my Castiel” or the “Castiel to my Dean.”
Shipping is just a very fun activity. It’s interactive. It’s complex. And its takes place in a very rich environment. It’s a hobby for most of us, but it’s also an outlet for us and a way to be social and have fun.
If you could lose calories while shipping, it’d probably be the best activity out there! :P
My ventures into shipping are linked with my ventures into fandom and fanfiction. As I discovered more about fandoms and started reading fanfiction, I realized that my experience as a consummer of media could last so much longer than the last page of a book, or the last episode of a television show. As a result I became much more invested in the media and fandoms I was part of. Shipping followed very quickly afterwards.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, shipping has much to do with love and passion towards the show/book/movie etc... I never ship in a story I am not invested in, and the characters I ship are most often the characters I am most passionate about.
I usually ship the very mainstream pairings, and not the rare ones (Destiel, Johnlock, Ron/Hermoine...), although I do have a few exceptions. I've noticed that these exceptions are always characters I am very invested in.
So... I suppose that shipping for me is all about love and passion towards the source material.
For example, I ship Dean Winchester and Castiel (destiel) from Supernatural, because I believe that if Castiel's vessel was a woman (with no other change in anything) they were already a couple. (though, thank god, it is Misha Collins with amazing acting of his) Even when I told this to my surprised brother, he thought about it and agreed with me. They have an amazing character growth, story line together and their looks at each other tells everything. I started shipping them before even knowing what shipping means and I was surprised that as a woman I really want two of my favorite characters to be together.
ReplyDeleteAs to shipping, generally, it just happens naturally. Everybody actually ships some characters but they just don't know the internet slang name of it. Writers do too, they sometimes even play with it. I mean it is not new for characters to interact(!) and be relationship with each other.
But of course, fan arts or fan fictions come in with fans and internet helps a lot. the medium usually is not enough for fans, they want more so they explore the universes on their own. Also being a fan isn't new, too, anyway. Fans made Arthur Conan Doyle bring back Sherlock Holmes.
I think shipping is fine and I think not all ships have to be "romantic" that you can just appreciate chemistry between certain actors or written character dynamics, but my problem lies when shippers ships becomes unruly and when the ones that heavily ship is no longer respecting the cannon to what has been written in the show, because it's a disservice to the writers and the actors who might be trying to convey a certain idea via certain relationships thematically. It's not that I don't thinling shipping or wanting a ship is wrong in anyway, it's technically like having a theory, which I am surely more than guilty of, but I also never claim that an idea I have is absolute truth, or malicely deny others the possibility of other potential theories. Part of the fun is guessing.
ReplyDeleteAll I ask is please ship responsibly.
I'm curious as to what your definition of "ship responsibly" is. What actions do you think shippers ought not to take? Sharing their theories on TV message boards? Writing fan fiction in which their "theory" is taken further than just something they think in their own minds? Do you not think that sharing these theories and enjoying them is something people ought to be able to do? Where is the line at which a person's ship begins to infringe on your ability to enjoy a show? I ask these questions seriously; this is the dialogue we need to have in order to learn to coexist as mutual fans. What are your thoughts?
ReplyDeleteWhy ship?
ReplyDeleteMmm, I will be honest here, I don't think it's vital to have a reason to ship. Why? Because shipping involves feelings, you cannot ship two characters if you don't feel it's ok for them to be together, and feelings don't need to have a reason, most of the time. It's the meaning of why we are human beings, we function based on rational thoughts, instinct AND feelings/emotions.
What I think, on the other hand, has a reason to be, is why I ship a certain pairing. It looks like the same but in my opinion there are two different things. Shipping a certain pairing is the consequence of the feelings you allow to act when you ship, if it makes sense (sorry if my english is not very fluent since it's not my mother tongue). For instance, I ship a lot of pairings from a lot of fandoms and I have a logical reason to ship them because they all correspond to the idea I have of love. Personally I don't ship by the looks and I'm not closed to shipping according to normatives of any kind.
In Kaoru/Kenshin example (you will identify how old I am since I was there on the fandom when Ruroken was being released) I ship them because from the very first manga chapter they chose to be together. Kaoru as a dojo owner who didn't have a reason to maintain in her house a former-assassin and Kenshin as that former-assassin who didn't need the support of a random girl he met by chance. They didn't need it, and their relationship didn't bring positive response from the outside (the police, the politicians, Shishio, Eniji, etc.) and they still chose to be together. Kaoru's house was Kenshin's home and for me there is not better way to describe pure love.
Ron and Hermione are another example. They were completely opposite, they bickered almost everyday, but in the end and literally all the time they were in the other's mind as a priority, since the beginning, until the end of the saga. Could I express love better than that?
Destiel is the last example I will use here, since it has its "refusals" because it's not (yet) a canon couple. And I named Kaoru/Kenshin and Ron/Hermione for a reason: they are canon couples who looks extremely alike to Destiel. I ship them because they need each other emotionally, and because they are not 100% happy is they are not together. I ship them because Dean is Cas' home and because even when they are completely opposite they still chose each other and sacrifice themselves for the other's well-being, on a daily basis, and in Castiel's case, dying more than once. There is no better way to show love, in my opinion. In this case, as well as the other examples I chose, they are each other's priorities, they need each other emotionally, they are emotionally attached, and they chose to be together, even when the outside does not agree with it, even when trouble is always happening when they are together. There is no responsibility, there is no duty, they are moved by feelings, and that´s love for me.
I hope I could make my point clear. I will always defend my ships because I always defend love, and since love is a positive feeling (the most positive of them all) there is no reason (logical) one for me not to.
Thanks for reading :)
I've been a shipper since before I even knew what shipping was. My One True Pairing is, without a doubt, Destiel. I ship them because I watched them meet and become friends and best friends and so much more, even though they weren't mean to. They're not lovers, not yet, but they love each other. I ship because I believe said love should be explored, because I'm invested in this relationship to a point where I can't help myself in wanting these two to be together. I ship because I see these two characters and I believe they're in love and them not being together hurts me, because it's like seeing friends of mine not getting what they want, what they need. I ship because I fell in love with their relationship while watching them fall in love with each other.
ReplyDeleteI get what you mean. I am a shipper in various fandoms but on occasion some fans take things to far. They start criticising the show and attacking the writers for not making their ship canon and basically the ship becomes their ONLY reason for watching a show. Then when things don't go their way with the characters in question they end up being very bitter or starting ship wars and wank in the fandom.
ReplyDeleteIs it all right for shippers to advocate to creators that two characters share more screentime? Or to say "Hey, we like the way these two interact, you should give us more of them?"
ReplyDeleteIs that OK but it's not OK for a viewer to say to a show creator, "I don't like the way you've been writing Character A lately, he/she should show more concern for Character B's feelings given what they've shared?"
Is that OK, too, but it's not OK for a viewer to say "You've ruined Character A, they were supposed to spend more time with Character B and now I'm bored with the show!"
In other words, is the problem the message, the direction, or the tone?
Again, I'm honestly asking. One of the things I'd like to do for a future column is a column talking about what actions by shippers truly grate on non-shippers' nerves and how they could still satisfy their need to be heard without causing divisiveness or antagonism. Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
Did you not read because you didn't need to - because you saw it happen on the screen, you didn't need other creative people's takes on it? Or was it a function of where you were personally vis-a-vis those ships you didn't read fanfic for?
ReplyDeleteOne of the very interesting divides to me within the shipping community is those who see shipping as inherently tied to wanting to see their couple become canon vs. those who just enjoy exploring the dynamics and don't have a need (or actively don't want) to see their couple become canon. I'm a little of Column A and a little of Column B, m'self :)
I agree. I see nothing wrong with voicing your opinion on a certain relationship and expressing your love and wishes for it to become canon in a respectful manner, but when you go as far as to purposefully start wank and ship wars, attack the actors and their spouses, send death threats or even try to get actors fired -- that's where I draw the line.
ReplyDeleteTo summarize, I fully support shipping in your own right, but not when your actions deliberately belittle other fans who don't share your views.
ship responsibility means that we treat our opinions about other ships as just that. opinions. not facts. there are often ship wars because people come from a holier than though mentality and completely disregard that they interpret things differently, but that it's not a fact. discussion always have to be done with the awareness that there is no right and wrong, because we interpret chemistry between actors differently. but if we put canon facts against canon facts, then that is the right way to discuss various ships. just like in scholarly writing, we always should provide sources for our claims, which makes these claims more valid. that's how we make good arguments for a ship.
ReplyDeleteThe thing is that shipping can be just an interpretation of canon. Not interpreting the canon in the same way the majority does isn't disrespecting the writers and the actors. By example, I believe Dean and Castiel, from Supernatural, are in love. I say this based on their canonical relationship. Why is my interpretation disrespectful, like a lot of people say it is? I've never seen a shipper tell others they have to ship their ship, that their interpretation is the right one. On the other hand, I see non-shippers doing this all the time; acting like their interpretation is somehow superior. Why? Why is a non-shipper's interpretation more right than a shippers's interpretation? I'm not asking anyone to ship what I ship, I just ask for respect and for people to stop treating shippers like second class fans. I just want to be able to give my opinions and talk about my interpretation of a relationship without being called a delusional fangirl.
ReplyDeletePersonally I would prefer if it fans kept shipping away from creators. It starts to break the fourth wall. I know that with social media it has become easier for fans to interact with the writers and actors but for a lot of fans they would still prefer to keep it in fandom especially when it comes to fanfic.
ReplyDeleteNow if people want to say 'hey we like it when A and B have scenes together' then fair enough but its when they start acting entitled and are like 'Why isn't A/B canon? IT HAS TO BE CANON WE DEMANDED IT. How dare A spend time with C! ' that I end up with second hand embarrassment. Because then everything becomes about the ship and not the overall story.
I fully support people voicing their love and appreciation for certain relationship, expressing their wishes for them to become canon. What I extremely dislike is when the tone of it gets too demanding and entitled, downright aggressive. Ultimately it's up to the writers if they're going to pursue this relationship or not, but the beauty of online communities is that the fans can give their feedback on the show directly to the source.
ReplyDeleteSo this is a real conundrum within the shipping world, because there is this question almost of etiquette -- of what should be avoided because it causes, as you said, "secondhand embarrassment" among other shippers who'd rather not be tarred with the same brush.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, there's an argument to be made that when you're trying to effect change, one of the things you need to do is be loud, and visible, and counter to established norms. There's a faction of fandom that sees shipping as a pleasant, creative activity not to be brought to the fore, and there's a faction that sees it almost like a social-justice cause. It's so super-interesting, and I wonder if there is room for tolerance, much less middle ground. Thanks for your really insightful words. They give me a lot to delve into and a real understanding of some of the problems!
Thanks! I really appreciate that insight. To you it really is a tone issue, but you do think the writers maintain their autonomy & ability to decide what to do with their characters, regardless of the aggressiveness of the fan voices. Thanks again for your response!
ReplyDeleteBecause, rebel against your kind, agains Heaven, kill your own brothers, be hunted, die more than twice, always come when the person that is the reason that you did it all, even don´t ask his help because you don´t want to ask him to give more than he already gave, (which was everything), to fight, to learn to feel, to become something you were not, to do chance so much in a few years after you have been the same since this world was created, is saying something , don´t you think?
ReplyDeleteMost people sometimes see shipping as purely sexual and I´m happy that here are the ones that doesn´t see it like that
Shipping happens as falling in love does, it´s natural, from things you see, FROM THINGS THAT MAKE YOU FEEL, sometimes you don´t even mean it, but in show cases, you see them and in some moment it just hit you, how much those love each other even if they are so different, or just a common "They love each other" in some moment you are watching and then you realize how much they have done, how much they have been through, and one of them could long ago just walk away from the other but chose stay even with all the pain
It´s chemistry too, how well they go along, how different their relationship in below friendship, how is love what is on their accions and faces
How they can be also so similar and have parallels
"The things that I did...what I became"
why do I ship?, I could go, since I am a Dean & Castiel shipper with an easy "Because I have eyes and watch the show", but really is because I watched the show always, and I saw their relationship grow from "I don´t like this Angel dick bastar" to "Cas, buddy, I need you" and from "I dragged you out of hell I can put you back in" to " I killed two angels this week. My brothers. I'm hunted. I rebelled and I did it -- all of it -- for you."
"I have a price on my head, and I've been trying to stay one step ahead of them, to – to keep them away from you. That's why I ran"
What's the appeal?- See this two character realize how they already have something that they weren´t look for, but that is happiness nonetheless
Note:Sorry if there is bad writen words I am not used to english
"Ship responsibility" addresses, in my opinion, to the fans' behaviours. We are all allowed to express ourselves, and if you wanna "fight" (in the figurative sense) for your wishes and for what you want, I think it's perfectly fine. BUT it doesn't mean you have to cross the line, the line of the moral behaviour, the line of the respect of other's opinions and wishes and basically the line of a serious conversation/debate.
ReplyDeleteI've met tons of people acting in a irresponsible way towards shipping: sending dead threads to actors/writers/fans, wanting to fire actor or writers or showrunners, and even wishing death and other horrible things to actor's families. That's what I, of course, don't support. That's my limit and that's how a shipper administrate their "freedom of speech" wrongly.
I'm glad to say my pairing have a responsible supporters overall and it's easy to speak with them and share thoughts. But I've met irresponsible shippers on my fandoms too, everyday, and somehow I think we should all educate them to express themselves differently. Not changing their opinions, because it's not my mission and I am no one to change anyone's mind, but to have a respectful conversation even when we disagree.
It depends on the ship and the circumstances to me...
ReplyDeleteFor example- I ship Remus/Sirius in the HP universe, but I acknowledge that it's not canon, and it doesn't need to be. (I also love the Remus/Tonks relationship)
However, I actively want Dean/Castiel to become canon (I believe they are already somewhat canon, but something explicit is what I mean). This is for two main reasons:
a) I think it would be the natural progression of their storylines, and it would be amazing to watch and not just imagine.
b) If it doesn't become explicit, it would mean the cast and crew have been actively queer-baiting. Which is not okay.
Yes this is what I'm saying! :)
ReplyDeleteLet me preface this by saying a viewer is of course free to take whatever they want from a series and enjoy a series for whatever reason works for them.....
ReplyDeleteMY issue with shipping, or more accurately some shippers, is that their shipping love sometimes surpasses their love of the actual series IMO.
When their desired 'ship goes against the series cannon or mythos I find it nonsensical and confounding. Viewers in their passion sometimes feel the need to almost take ownership of the characters they love and do with them as they please in their minds. I find that ridiculous. I love passionate fans that enjoy a series and everything in that series, but when some people create and love things that are simply not a part of and never will be a part of a series it is just silly.
This likely relates to why I am against FanFic in its entirety.
I don't like this whole "fourth wall" comment because I don't see that being applied evenly. For instance, as you mention, fans have no problems complaining about characterization or the overall direction of the season. These complaints are commonplace and happen without much of a hiccup, but if you mention a desire to see a relationship become canon or two characters who are romantically paired to share more screentime then it's a problem. My point of view on feedback and criticism to any show is the following: Everything is permissible as long as you do it respectfully and you don't take any personal swipes at people. If you want to complain that a certain character isn't being treated fairly - you have that right. If you want to state that you wish two characters would get together romantically - you have that right. If you want to state that season A was better than season B and you are a fan who is about to exit the show - you have that right. In other words, communication and exchange between writers and fans should be done freely and at the discretion of each one of us. If you don't feel comfortable criticizing characterization, then don't do it. If you don't feel comfortable asking for a relationship to be made canon, then don't do it. The problem rises when people try to push their own beliefs onto others. "Don't mention ships! I'm not comfortable with that" may be one person's belief, but not the others. None of us should live life tailoring our beliefs and actions according to what others think. And as a writer myself, I always welcome feedback to my stories. On any given day, I'd rather have criticism than no feedback. At least when you have a critique, you know your writing is reaching people and is making an impact.
ReplyDeleteYep. also exactly!
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree being aggressive and demanding isn't a good thing, I don't think shipping should be kept away from TPTB or treated like a dirty secret. I don't know why advocating for a character or a storyline is considered okay, but when it comes to shipping it becomes a negative thing. I don't know why I shouldn't be allowed to say "I like when these two interact and I see their dynamic as romantic, I would love if they got together as a couple". It's the same as saying "I love this character and if they got more screentime and more involvement in the storyline it would be great".
ReplyDeleteSo what gets your goat is ship wars, the trashing of a ship that is not the one someone believes in. How fans treat other fans Which is really interesting and counter to what some of the folks downthread are saying, which is that it's fans' interactions with creators that are the problem. Do you think the two are related, or are they two separate problems? And where does it hit home for you? Do you feel belittled as someone who doesn't ship a popular ship, or who does ship something that others seem to openly consider an inferior ship? I know these are personal questions and deal with unpleasant feelings so don't feel you have to answer, but I think they're questions that a lot of people deal with, so feel free, anyone, to chime in!
ReplyDeleteAnyway, on the contrary of you, I think breaking the forth wall is amazing as far as you do that correctly and respectfully, I think it's positive for the story as a whole. Internet brings us different ways to express that, and even when there are a lot of people using it wrong, the majority uses it in a useful way.
ReplyDeleteBut isn't this a complaint more aimed at fans in general than shippers? Every fan that is passionate about a show, film or book and follows it's progression begins to have an idea of where they want the characters and the story to go. When the actual story doesn't go where they want it to go, they will be upset. This isn't exclusive to shipping. Just now, the Supernatural fandom has this project "The Silent Majority" where the whole campaign is about Supernatural fans who are unhappy with the direction of the two main characters, Dean and Sam. This campaign isn't rooted in ships. This is about fans being unhappy with the brother's relationship. And whether directly or indirectly, this campaign has been a source of a lot drama, wank, and even fanwars. So, like I said. Fanwars, wank, and people being unhappy with a show they follow happens to FANS, not just shippers.
ReplyDeleteHonestly?
ReplyDeleteI think fans should have absolutely NO voice in how a series is run and showrunners should have very little interest in how fans feel about their show (in regards to how they write the show).
The creative teams should have their stories set and write the best episodes they can to take their story from point A in the pilot to point Z in the finale with no regard for fans. Period. It is not the fans story, it is the showrunners/ writers story to tell.
I think the issue really only applies to network procedurals for the most part. Cable dramas tend to stay more true to their creative vision, but procedurals can and sometimes do tweak relationships and roles to favor whichever way the wind blows.
Does it matter to your enjoyment of a show what it is someone else finds enjoyable about it? How does the existence of fanfic (assuming, of course, someone is not sticking it in your face every two minutes saying "read it!!!") affect your life in a way that you feel you have to be against it?
ReplyDeleteAll of those couples I've listed above have one thing in common -- slow, carefully constructed build-up. That is the main reason I was attracted to them.
ReplyDeleteI feel like nowadays most of the on-screen relationships tend to be thrown together without any chemistry or logical development, so I've always been drawn to the will-they-won't-they scenarios and relationships that develop on their own. It feels organic and it makes it easier for me to feel for them and with them.
I've read some fanfiction about Dean and Castiel, but my strong preference is for canon compliant stories that have canon characterizations of both characters and the plot that feels like it could be part of the show -- in that way it's an expansion of their canon relationship and the only way I can truly enjoy the story. I fully believe they should eventually become canon and I don't think I should be ashamed of expressing this belief (sadly, there are some fans who like to say "shh keep your dirty little secret in the closet", as if it's a bad thing to like something I see on screen).
Actually, I like meta and discussion on their relationship more than I like reading fanfiction, I love dissecting the subtext and their interactions in every new episode.
Only universe/fandom I've been a part of and in which I only enjoyed fanfiction for reading about different takes on characters was the Harry Potter fandom. I think it has a lot to do with the original -- there are seven books rich with many, many characters that are only shown to us in glimpses, but are ultimately very much alive and fleshed-out, and you can't help but wonder what's behind them. Also, the original books were somewhat lacking in romance, so that was a bonus, too.
It depends on the argument that people give me when they literally trash my ship. when they say "I'm a silly fangirl", "I just want porn", "Ew they are just friends, they aren't sleeping with each other". It's these kind of arguments that really get to me, because male/male bodied is often equated with sexual perversion. I'm only speaking about non-het ships in my case, because right now I don't have another ship. people are more ready to see something romantic between a het-ship than not. Then I feel belittled not only as a shipper, but as a person, because people think I want nothing more than sex. That I'm somehow dirty and inferior because of my ship.
ReplyDeleteAnd to me, fans interactions with creators become a problem only when the creator himself makes derogatory comments that hit home, that insult somebody's personal life. It's a separate problem because it also deals with a power play, where you as a shipper and fan feel helpless to express your opinion politely. It's the creator's work, but that doesn't mean the work itself doesn't have problematic material (queerbaiting in SPN). and there's hardly anything that fans can do about it other than giving up on the show. which is quite hard when you are attached to the story and the ship. In SPN's case we shouldn't force the writers to write the story in a certain way, but then they also should stop to insert subtext to make us think about this ship more, if they aren't ready to deliver. and they should stop queerbaiting. It's always a two-way street.
I've been increasingly disappointed by fandoms these past few years, I feel there is some sort of lack of imagination. I do love shipping, but sometimes I like to read introspection, or plain friendship, or a bit of comedy. I love being engaged in something that passionate me, especially shipping, because it is something deep, and you can ship the same characters from different reasons. But, as I was saying with the lack of imagination, it is that some fandoms are full of fanfictions with the SAME pairing, with the same stories (I'm looking at you, Teen Wolf fandom, the newly "rediscovered" Hobbit fandom too!), canonical pairing is sometimes being hated, for no reason, even if there is still a lot to explore.
ReplyDeleteIt has become harder for me to find different things I like, fandoms are just now a mould that everyone is happy to be in, and there is lack of diversity that bothers me, fanfiction where there at first for people to express their differences, embracing it, not forcing slash on every character for the sake of it, without explaining why. (I do hope I was clear :), and that nobody feels insulted, that was not my intention, but as a non-native it is sometimes a bit hard to make deep comments that sound perfect! )
Absolutely, ultimately it's up to the writers about the direction of the show.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I think they should get feedback for their work. It's a matter of balance -- it never ends well when the writers keep forcing something that they think some loud fans want to see. * Similarly* they sometimes stray in the wrong direction, especially with two actors who have no chemistry or when they rush things -- feedback might alert them to that sooner and give them the chance to improve themselves.
The most glaring example in SPN fandom -- the writers listened to loud fans when they expressed their hate towards female characters that weren't even given the chance to fully develop.
*On the other hand*, they sometimes force relationships that have zero chemistry or are poorly executed (the newest love interest for Sam).
I guess what I'm trying to say is that everything requires balance -- extremism on both ends of the spectrum leads to bad writing.
Luckily for me my enjoyment is not affected by others enjoyment or lack there of....
ReplyDeleteTo me no good can come of FanFic.
The fans are supposed to be passive viewers of the story provided by the active creative team in my mind and they cross a line when they step into creation of FanFic. The writers of books and shows should own their content and using their characters and, worlds and creations is akin to stealing property... albeit intellectual property.
My views are pretty similar to George RR MArtin's that can be read here:
http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2010/05/george-r-r-martin-on-fan-fiction.html
What happens when some FanFic writer takes their story to a place that the actual writers/ creators of a series plan to take it down the road.
If that story theorizes accurately what are the actual show writers to do? Can they sue? Do they just write it anyway and hope not to get sued by the FanFic author? Should the creative team have to tweak aspects because some overzealous fan has overstepped their role as a viewer?
I suppose that everyone can have a different reason for shipping one or other pairing. Mines varies from the main couples (e.x. Caskett), the ones that are not an endgame (Lily&Rufus), the unrequaired love ( most likely Sherlolly) to the ones that would never happen in the series/book (snarry). For me it is partially the way to connect more with the characters and being able to live different versions of fairy tales or dramas that I adore but would never like to live in the real world. And as for why I ship one pairing and other not - it is simply a feeling that they could or should belong together. I would never try to convince anybody that my version is better or more likely because most of the time it isn't;) but I am happy imagining what could've happened if given the chance :)
ReplyDeleteShipping wasn't a large fascination for me prior to watching Supernatural and shipping Destiel (Dean/Cas). They were my first real ship, the first one I truly cared about and got emotional over. Now, I ship things like crazy (though I don't multiship Dean or Cas), some seriously and some not. In general, I do it because it's fun. It's really enjoyable to explore all these characters in greater depth, place them in different scenarios and relationships, and imagine how things would play out. It's even more enjoyable to connect with other fans who share the same views and discuss them. For ships I take more seriously than others, though, it's somewhat of a different story. Aspects of it are still a blast to participate in, and I've actually met several great friends through shipping Destiel; but the heart of why I ship it is because I love Dean and Cas individually and want them to find happiness, and I think that with each other is where that's most possible. I adore their dynamic and the relationship they already have, one that I think harbors more than enough foundation for them to progress into romance canonically. In my opinion, they bring out the best in each other, and it's hard not to see how much they love being around one another. They've been through so much together, and it's genuinely amazing to me that their bond has braved every storm it's been faced with. I think they're absolutely perfect for each other, so if they finally got it over with and got together, I can see them finding the peace and happiness that each so desperately needs and deserves.
ReplyDeleteSo, in short, I ship both for myself and for the characters I love. I ship because it's an outlet that fosters creativity and imagination, I ship because it's a great and fun way to interact with other fans, but most of all, I ship because I want my favorite characters to be happy. If I think two of them would be the happiest with each other, then I'll support and advocate for that pairing in spite of just about anything.
Personally, I ship very rarely, so when I do it's simply because I see two characters that I feel are just meant to be. I don't actively ship for the sake of it, (as in reblog things and visit various websites devoted to these ships) or just because I think it would be fun to see these characters together - although I may be pulled into a random conversation about other characters every now and again - I only ship if I actually see something there that's worth shipping, in my own opinion. I don't ship without foundation. If I recognise two characters with undeniable chemistry, that tension you get when there's something more than friendship between them...or just that lovely familarity between them that is so comfortable, and they just look so right together...then I ship them. It's basically matchmaking via the tv screen. If I feel like they would be so right for each other, and more importantly that being together would be a wonderful thing and could make the two characters happy, then I ship them. Unsurprisingly this usually happens when either one or both is my favourite character, for a couple of reasons..firstly, I want that character to be happy and secondly that may be a little bit of identification with either one or both of the characters, and so I admit I may occasionally be living vicariously through these characters. One of my biggest ships when I was younger was Monica and Chandler on Friends; I massively identified with Monica, and Chandler I fancied the most and would have chosen as a boyfriend myself if I had the chance, plus I also recognised the familarity in their body language and chemistry, and their personalities fitted so well. I flipped when they got together. When they got engaged I cried! Nowadays I ship Dean and Castiel, and while I don't so much identify and live vicariously through them, I do again see two characters that fit like a glove, their chemistry is tangible, they have personalities that balance each other out and they share similar personal issues and have a unique understanding of each other so them being together would be mutually beneficial. I care about them both, so I want both to be happy and from what I have seen, them being together would make them so. So I matchmake them - by discussing them and asking the question - why are they not together already? Plus, storywise it makes for a great romance...the angel and the hunter, the thousand year old celestial being and the angry young man. Two characters from different worlds that overcome the divide through their shared feelings. There are numeruos parallels between Destiel and other love stories, ranging from fairytales to gothic novels. There are a lot of AU fics in Destiel and its funny how you don't have to warp the dynamic inorder to make it fit. In any setting, in any form - Destiel works. So again, I ask - why are they not together, when they are clearly meant to be. Then I wait for the show to hopefully agree.
ReplyDeleteI'm not denying the right to imagine potential, but just like, for instance, there are people who romantically ship Emma and Regina on OUAT. Either L. Parilla or G. Goodwin politely expressed that she believes that the characters weren't created to express that idea, or that this idea has not yet been the intention of the stories the writers have created for those two characters. The people who felt otherwise went on a rampage and bombarded the actress twitter accounts. This is when I think the viewers behavior crosses the line, because they feel the need to "force" their interpretation, wish fulfillment, or fantasy onto to the cast, producers, ect instead of accepting the show the way it is presented...It's like telling Rembrandt he needs to be more like Picasso, because you like Picasso better, instead of appreciating Rembrandt, or just trying to find something more Picasso-esque.
ReplyDeleteIt's not that I don't think that we the viewers shouldn't fight for things like sexual orientation or broader gender/ethnicity concerns, but we should fight the network with point blank adult letters. So many times it seems like ships are used to voice these concerns.
I just think our current culture is, at times, out of control with this need to voice opinions in a polarizing and often disrespectful manner towards others with differences of opinions. It's one thing to have a fantasy and create an idealistic stereotype to one's liking, it's another thing to impose your fantasy as law and treat others badly for it claiming it is in fact reality.
I can answer a little of that - mostly when a fanfic story theorizes accurately it does so to such a small audience (a few hundred, maybe a few thousand readers) that it does not cause the creative team of a show that has a few million viewers to lose anything monetarily or in terms of intellectual property or originality. I have written stories that theorized accurately, and my only reward was a few friends patting me on the back. There was no effect, nobody on the creative team ever knew or had to take any action.
ReplyDeleteI'm aware of Mr. Martin's feelings about fan fiction, as well as Anne Rice's and several others. I do think that, with due deference to their feelings, there's really no way to stop people from appropriating characters and plots that have been created into different situations. In fact that's how a lot of the early great literature was created. Shakespeare stole constantly. :)
Thanks for your honesty and for your willingness to state an opinion that will doubtless get you some pushback. That takes guts, and yours is a voice we desperately need in this conversation.
I agree. I think it's nice that show runners do now do this for us, but I think it is THEIR story and we are one's that have the option to accept their creation or not. (with the exception of fighting Netwrok issues)
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree that the whole legal thing can be problematic, why is writing fanfiction reserved to "overzealous fans"? And why does it count as overstepping our role as viewers?
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, fanfiction does nothing more than give a creative outlet to all the "what ifs" that run through our mind while consumming fiction. We all theorize, we all wonder, we all wish things had gone differently. Is it really that wrong to share it with people who share our passions? After all, many "legitimate" works of fiction can be seen as fanfiction, such as BBC's Sherlock and the reboot of Doctor Who.
Fanfiction has existed far before the internet did, even if only in people's minds, it's just more accesable nowadays.
I also think that there is nothing wrong with redifining what the role of the viewer is: is it strictly passive? Or is there room for fans to do more than watch and stay silent?
I agree, good post.
ReplyDeleteI don't feel uncomfortable openly shipping Dean and Cas because I see the potential, AND (more importantly) I like the way show is treating that relationship. It doesn't feel like baiting, it was never explicitly stated that we're seeing something that isn't there and the actors never said anything against it.
So did soap operas, in the day. Soap operas used to film 5 days a week, and they would often "try" different couples in social settings and see how the fans reacted before proceeding to a romantic stage of the relationships. I remember several almost-couples that never happened at the last minute back when I was a soap opera junkie. Creators listening to fans is not such a new thing. But yeah, no matter how much we scream and yell, they do get to make the decisions in the end.
ReplyDeleteAs an author, I have written both completed novels and serialized fiction. With novels, you don't get the feedback until after the story's completely told. But when you're serialized you sometimes do see your story changing based on the feedback to it. It's not necessarily a corrupting or "bad" influence; but what you do with that feedback depends on your vision and how you see it being realized. Sometimes I tweaked, and sometimes I didn't, depending on what else I had up my sleeve. I think that showrunners must have varying views of their audiences' reactions, as well. But part of telling a serialized story is that you do get feedback along the way, and what you do with it is your decision as a creator.
Tiptoe- Have you considered writing about the difference between subtext and queerbaiting, and how it affects shipping? I'd love to see that!
ReplyDeleteThank you... and I'm used t getting some push back on here! XD
ReplyDeleteThankfully the outcome of fans accurately theorizing and writing their own stories is small, but I have read of cases where writers that used to read FanFic came across fan stories that were just a bit too close to what the writers intended to do down the road. I know one writer changed their initial intent because of it... I forget what the others did. I read this years ago so I cannot recall the details.
Far as I recall those writers all quit reading any fan submissions because of the FanFic being a bit too close to home. I think one changed their mind about FanFic as a result too...
For writers that feel inspired by works of fiction I can understand the desire to elaborate or expand on a universe or character they are drawn to. I think in this age of "instant publishing" with anyone able to get their story out into the world that fans should be more responsible and understanding. If they love the characters then let the people who created the characters write them without having to look over their shoulder for writers accidentally spoiling future plot lines and events.
OR even go the official route and take that desire to the industry...
Some series have come out of that very desire I'm sure. Look at Haven based on a short story by Stephen King or Justified based on some short stories by Elmore Leonard, or so many other projects that started from one fans desire to expand..... Those fans of the original material went about it the right way and ended up writing series based on their passions.
But there's also the issue that you have what the producers/writers want, what the actors want, and then what the network wants. I think so many times writing a serializes TV show is hard on network TV, because all three of these things all can go up against each other at any time, and what the writers might have wanted, an actress/actor, or the network doesn't want...So I think we shouldn't use "shipping" to voice our social concerns, but rather write letters to network/producers or create forums for these specific things. (or there is always not watching a show)
ReplyDeleteI think Lou has a good point, because I do think there are people who do ship politely and have good fun, but there are plenty of them who do not and they basically ruin it for everyone, because they have made the show "completely" about them, instead of the show.
I think if one thinks their opinion that highly, that they should write their own show and see if they can afford and/or are able to pitch it to a network, because films (movies/Tv series), like novels and paintings, can be "works" of art/philosophy. I think it is not for us to tell the artist "how", but rather for us to learn or appreciate what they have to offer.
ReplyDeleteExactly.
ReplyDeleteIf I get the feeling a show is testing in the way Soap Operas did I lose interest immediately As well as losing respect for the showrunner.
There certainly is a place for shows cater to those romantic couplings and that are almost fan-driven .... It's just not the type of show I like to watch.
It's something I really want to go into, but I'll definitely be looking for some input as I don't consider myself quite knowledgeable yet on what's considered queerbaiting. The relationship between shipping and the LGBTQQA "activist" community (meaning those who work toward greater representation in media) is a very complex one. I'll need some contacts and possibly some folks to interview on that!
ReplyDeleteI see nothing wrong with feedback, it's a form of criticism. It's wrong when it starts crossing the line, when fans start forcefully pushing something that can't happen organically in the actual show.
ReplyDeleteTwo more motivations for shipping from the top of my head: 1) Going with the love for the characters part, some times shipping happens simply because we can't get enough of the characters we love. One hour a week isn't enough. Shipping is an outlet to interact and appreciate and love those characters more and on our time line. 2) Perhaps this is more to the point with fanfiction than just shipping, but some times we just want to tell a story. When we use our ships to tell stories, not only do we get to interact with the characters more, but it also lets us explore our society and environment and possibilities, using characters we know and love as the focal point. An overall win in my book. :)
ReplyDeleteI think feedback is fine, if feedback is asked for. -In fact maybe there should be a place for feedback if Showrunners/the network truly want it. -But what I see happen is that many people think "everywhere" or "anywhere" is ok for any conversation! I think we can do better on this.
ReplyDeleteBut another problem is that I find that people often criticize irrationally...so how good is feedback?
I actually agree with you on that, I've seen a lot of spam and mindless wank all over the boards and comments sections of the articles. The best thing is to try and balance both of those things, because writers without feedback can lose the thread of a good story, as well as be pushed into something that's equally as bad by the fans.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I fully support voicing your opinion online about what are your wishes in regards to the show, without feeling entitled when those wishes aren't met. Sometimes we've got to trust the writers.
I'm somebody who doesn't watch shows for ships or an exclusive ship per say. I feel often I can be swayed to think about and consider many different character dynamics. Now that doesn't mean I don't ever prefer one ship to another, but for me, I'm more interested in what the relationships do for the characters and what the bigger picture is going to be. I want to be able to respect the writers decisions in giving me reasons why these things are they way they end up being...I want to come to understand their messages, because that IMO, in a serialized show, is the point.
ReplyDeleteI would say I do not like ship wars, simply because I don't like unfounded hostile behavior in general. As I have said on other posts, I think we do a diservice when we ship to a point of antagonistic behavior. That doesn't mean that ships, or what I tend to discuss more are theories, shouldn't be presented or discussed and debated, because I do think many shows really operate on mystery and the unknown, teasing the viewer to guess and I think it can be rewarding experience to be able to think about things a different way that one might not have considered, hadn't one discussed it.
I just think that we have to do these things respectively and not take out what we wish to happen, that perhaps doesn't, out on other people.
I see nothing wrong in feedback, feedback (both if asked or not) allows the writers to know what people want. And it's always fine, in my opinion, if conversations are express respectfully. Without feedback, Tolkien wouldn't write The Lord of the Rings, for instance. Critics AND fans sent him letters after The Hobbit release and without that support he wouldn't address how much his story was loved.
ReplyDeleteThe problem here is some people confuses "freedom of speech" with licentiousness, and when someone does that, nothing good happens as a response. We all have the means of communication to express ourselves, we have to do it right.
To me it is the equivalent of that one fan at an acoustic in-store performance who feels the need to sing along so loudly that they can be heard over the singer. They do it because of their passion, but it crosses the line since everyone else is there to hear the singer.
ReplyDeleteAs far as fans staying silent, I am not about that at all. I think fans can voice whatever they like as far as opinions and can co-miserate with other fans at will. However I do not think it should be directed at the showrunners and especially not in an attempt to influence the show.
Personal I shudder at the mere thought of viewers interacting with the show's creative team in any way that actually affects the story. I abhor the "Choose-Your-Own-Adventure" concept and think it would ruin any legit drama series by giving the series an ad-hoc feeling.
It would interject the worst aspects of "reality" TV into scripted TV and be the dowrifall of scripted television. Ack!
I've shipped since I was born, basically. But I didn't know it actually had a name. As a child, my favorite part of every Disney movie was when the romantic pairing would finally KISS. The payoff was always so wonderful, and I was FASCINATED by it. I would draw and write princess/prince love stories and again, I was fascinated by creating that romantic build-up and tension, and then ahhh, the kiss! I loved love. I was obsessed with it. It was something that affected me deeply, something that touched me, something that I knew existed even if I couldn't see the hows or whys.
ReplyDeleteThat never really changed. Growing up, when I would watch television shows or movies, I was always looking for a pairing to "ship." But I began to notice that I don't really care for romance when it's the main focus of the story. I hate romantic comedies. I hate overly dramatic love stories. My favorite love stories are the ones that develop accidentally, slowly, on the sidelines. They develop against all odds, and despite all the crazy, fantastical things happening in the main storyline.
there are several people who explain queerbaiting quite well. http://mekbuda.tumblr.com/post/40286195899/this-casual-reminder-inspired-by-amorremanets
ReplyDeletehttp://zemmer.tumblr.com/post/36720884625/an-explanation-of-queer-baiting-and-why-its-a-problem
http://popcultnotart.blogspot.com.au/2012/10/fangirl-101-queer-baiting.html
I agree with others who have suggested a place of balance with these things. I agree that fan fiction can be a good or nice thing, although I think Darque's right in maybe waiting until a series end to work on one.
ReplyDeleteHawaii Five-0 for instance is letting fans choose a criminal and ending to an episode by voting. To some degree I think it's a neat idea and one of the first times a non competitive reality show has done this. -But at the same time, I feel like creative teams are hired because they are creative. And if viewers can't trust or appreciate someone else's story, then what does it say about us culturally? -Why do watch TV at all then? -Just to come online and rain on someone else's parade, because we're not happy with ourselves or even know ourselves?
I love the shipping for Supernatural. Whether it should be canon, I don't know. I do know that at the last comic con, Ben Edlund, Jared Padalecki, and Misha Collins has to explain Destiel to Jensen Ackles. lol
ReplyDeleteI write Supernatural fan fiction and I have one story that has a major following and is being translated in German for another site. It has no shipping, but I've kept it so close to the reality of the show that the fans have actually mistaken for canon. I've had to tell them, no that isn't canon, but it ought to be. lol
I do enjoy reading the shipping. I like some of the Sam and Deans but Dean and Castiel fascinate me. I have actually read one Sam and Gabriel I enjoyed. I am not crazy about Crowley and Dean.
My stories are on FanFiction,net and anything that has explicit sex or the real actors gets purged. If want shipping, I can usually find a better realm in Sinful Desire, Adult FanFiction, or Live Journal.
Some are too way out for me, but some are quite good. I wrote one on FanFiction, a one shot Nothing Worse than an Angel Scorned. It's funny.
I think the writers of SPN have hinted at it many times.
I know someone who would be the first to say she watches the shows she does (like Lost when it was on and Fringe) for the relationships. She doesn't ship on the web and I'm sure would be surprised at what's out there, but she's fascinated by relationships. In real life she works as a therapist, she spends a lot of time on Facebook connecting to people, and always has an active social life. It's not that she can't follow the plot. She can. She's very intelligent. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Relationships are part of the character writing, which is an important part of any piece of fiction.
ReplyDeleteI also don't think there's anything wrong with developing an active fantasy life around TV shows, whether that's romantic relationships, other types of fanfic, or just developing elaborate theories that go far beyond where the show has gone. This is something I personally am not too interested in, but I really don't care what fantasy realms other people set up on their Tumbler accounts, blog or where ever.
Where this gets to be too much for me is when people start getting pushy about their fantasies. This next part isn't just limited to shippers, but there's a tendency in online fandoms for people to connect wth other people with a similar mindset and form advocacy groups. They start to influence other people around them and their group grows and they start to become a vocal segment on a website. People who think like they do are attracted to that website, and people who do not, start avoiding it. Pretty soon this group is only talking to like-minded people and they become convinced they speak for the majority of fans. And when the show doesn't go their way, they become an aggressive mob on a campaign to influence the show.
Part of me thinks "let fans do what they're going to do," it's up to the professionals running the show to not let themselves be influenced. But the other part realizes that there are a lot of people in business with influence over things they know nothing about, who might listen to the mob and become convinced the mob speaks for the majority of fans. And the most vocal groups are NEVER the majority.
So while I don't really think there's anything wrong with fans hoping to influence a show, I think the showrunners should never let unvetted feedback like that influence their decisions. By unvetted, I mean there can be some value in feedback, but it needs to be looked at impartially and analytically, and showrunners shouldn't be cowered into a direction they don't believe in.
There are a couple of reasons I don't think showrunners should stay true to their path:
1 - Very very rarely have I read fan's fantasy and thought it was a show I would want to watch.
2 - I think most fans trust that despite fan pressure, the showrunners will do what's best for the show. And if the showrunner bends under pressure to the 5% vocal minority, that group will be happy, but a significant chunk of the rest of the audience will feel like the show was hijacked and will feel betrayed.
And when a group becomes very focal, or childish, where does this leave the opposing group? They can respond in kind and respond with equally bad behavior and ensure that they are heard. Or they can take the higher road and give respective feedback without running campaigns, but risk that their side won't be heard. If they trust the showrunners to stay true to the story, then they're more likely to behave in the way they want to behave. If they don't, they'll start behaving equally badly and soon the show discussions become a cacophany of immature fans vying for attention. and that just turns off the more mature fans from the show.
Thanks for the shipping safe space! There are many reasons I participate in (many, many) fandoms and ship different pairs. I'm gonna start by saying I agree that a huge part of it (especially at first) is the desire to bring light and happiness into a world filled with hardship or simply the desire to see what might happen if so-and-so chose option B instead of option A. We are able to place the characters we know and love in different situations to see how they might react. I think some of this is out of a desire to spend more time with our characters in situations they haven't been in before, but also that some of it is out of a desire to explore an interesting situation using safe characters that we are already familiar with (and with a pool of readers ready to jump into the story). I, personally, enjoy seeing into the character's minds a bit through different fanfic; it gives us a unique perspective that we otherwise wouldn't experience in the official medium beyond our own personal headcanon.
ReplyDeletePart of the appeal from the reader's standpoint is if you don't like where the show/movie/fanfic writer went with the plot, there are literally dozens to hundreds or even thousands of other alternative endings leading closer to what you may have wanted. By exploring these alternatives (we often see hints of the butterfly effect), we also get to see into the minds of the fanfic writers/fellow members of the fandom and see just what is important to him/her, why. I think it's really amazing how you can give the same (often quite specific) prompt to ten different writers and get ten completely different stories.
On a more personal note, I love fanfic because one of the things that makes me the happiest is a good, well-written love story; when I watch shows, I see the potential for a beautiful love story. Even if it doesn't make sense from a tv show writer's perspective to incorporate these types of plot lines, I naturally tend towards developing in my own mind, so it is absolutely fantastic for me to find others who do the same.
In fact, one of the biggest reasons that I involve myself in fandom and ship different pairings so passionately is due to the simple camaraderie of a common passion. I love being able to talk to people from all over the world (across countries and cultures and languages) about how we all hope Dean and Cas will just finally kiss already or about just how many Johnlock references are written into other versions of Sherlock Holmes. It's about the sense of worldwide community we develop through this very specific niche we just aren't able to find elsewhere.
There seems to be an avoidance of what I assume is the primary definition of "shipping." When I think about shipping, I think about all the shows with love geometries and "will they before the finale" almost couples. Picking sides of love triangles or patiently waiting for the Christmas special kiss or the sad pouty face watching a rainy window. The TVDs and HoDs and Castle/Beckett and Booth/Brennen. Most shows have love stories that never get fulfilled until the very end or are constant partner swapping. I feel like we're having an alternative discussion with some sort of underlying unspoken classification that has excluded that from this. The feeling that we're having one discussion under the guise of something else kinda bugs me. Why not be honest? We're not talking about shipping in general. We're only talking about fan-created ships.
ReplyDeleteI love shipping! I'm a huge fangirl! I pretty much have a ship for most shows i watch. Your last paragraph summed up quite nicely why some people ship (why i ship in particular).We literally spend years (if we're lucky) watching these characters grow. We watch their first meeting, the initial attraction, the inevitable obstacles keeping them appart, the hardships they face in their own lives and together. We watch their friendships/relationships grow and evolve, we learn about their pasts. Yes, their fictional but we emotionally invest in these characters and we know everything about them. Ultimately we ship because in the end we want them to find happiness with each other. A love story over time is a beautiful thing to watch and we get to experience that with characters that we know and love.
ReplyDeleteShips!: castle/beckett (castle), jane/lisbon (the mentalist), peter/olivia (fringe), jack/sam (stargate), nick/jess (new girl), ben/leslie (parks and recreation).
I'm indifferent to shipping, and have no problem with however someone enjoys a show.
ReplyDeleteBut it's tedious to be preached at that I'm not watching a show right if I can't see a shipping subtext, or that it ought to be made canon, or that the writers are homophobic for not making a ship canon.
This is great! And I love that Time article too!
ReplyDeleteI ship, a lot, tons of different kinds of ships. The appeal for me varies from ship to ship: sometimes is the possibility of the relationship, sometimes is about enjoying a particular relationship, and sometimes is about fixing the relationship between two characters.
I have always shipped, I just didn't know I wasn't the only one until I joined fandom. It's great to know there are people out there that feel as I do about a couple and it's also great to see all the different ways we can express those feelings.
I appreciate the resources! Thank you! Bookmarking for later reference :)
ReplyDeleteI don't get into shipping wars, maybe because my favorite show is Supernatural and I love the brother family love. I have 3 boys and Sam & Dean fight like my kids have, and I worry about them, cry and laugh with them, they have become members of my family. Like in real life I don't always approve of what the writers have them do, or like some of the choices, but so far it has always worked out. Keeping fingers crossed for this season. lol
ReplyDeleteI just read something about shipping that got my attention: http://domesticlifeofghosts.tumblr.com/post/40549094828
ReplyDeleteShe has a point, it happens all the time. I can't even remember the number of times I've been called disrespectful for shipping Dean and Cas, even though I could argue that their relationship has more development than some relationships that are already canon.
What do you think about this? Is this society's fault or just a misconception about shippers in general?
Rest assured that Jensen knows exactly what Destiel is, he was just joking in his own deadpan humor kind of way. :)
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