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SpoilerTV - TV Spoilers

POLL : What did you think of Supernatural - Defending Your Life?

15 Oct 2011

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221 comments:

  1. klutzy_girl15 October 2011 at 02:59

    I loved it! Jo! Not Guilty! but still hallucinating!Sam. Lawyer!Sam. LOL at the Good Wife reference.

    Dean needs to tell Sam about Amy.

    Such a great episode!

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  2. Charles15 October 2011 at 03:00

    aaaw ppor Dean. Not as good as the first 2 eps but good

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  3. frank15 October 2011 at 03:01

    These "gods" get ganked way too easily.  I did like the prospect of Dean having to own up to last week's episode.  Maybe that'll happen down the road.  Would also liked a short update on the Leviathan. Just to see how much ground they gained on the boys.

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  4. Chanelle Montpetit15 October 2011 at 03:04

    dunno... wasnt all that exciting im ad. But i had a crappy day, i'll rewatch tomorow nearly fell asleep tonight during it

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  5. Julia15 October 2011 at 03:06

    Yeah, I finally got my Balthazar badge voting! Also Lawyer!Sammy was adorable, I love that he watches THe Good Wife! I couldn't stop laughing when the guy got hit by that car in his apartment.. It reminded me of the episode of South Park with all the elderly drivers trying to get to country kitchen buffet.

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  6. Neon Jedi15 October 2011 at 03:12

    I loved it. I just wish that they had at least mentioned Cas, because Dean has to feel guilty about him too.

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  7. frank15 October 2011 at 03:13

    I'm going to rewatch also as I had several distractions this evening but I feel like you do. I did really like the freshness of the concept.

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  8. Kyanna Warner15 October 2011 at 03:13

    An all round good episode which started out with them figuring they would work a simple case that develops into another deep inspection of one of the characters. I love the Jo and Dean interaction and the flashbacks gah! So sweet :) I miss her now.  You know I was expecting Sam to revert into some hardcore Lawyer references and statements but he starts out with the  whole 'I object' then the Good wife stint lmao, aww he was just adorkable smh. I love how positive Sam was at the end, he was all smiley and proud of himself for not letting his guilt or his past weigh heavy on his conscience. That little smile he gave at the end made me think of Jared and Gen. :D CONGRATULATIONS!

    Can't wait for next week with Charisma and James ;D

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  9. chris68415 October 2011 at 03:14

    I voted poor. I was looking forward to an episode exploring Dean's guilt, but this didn't even skirt the most important issues - ie hell, Lisa/ben, probably some childhood memories that were formative to Dean. Jo and Sam? Seriously?

    I was also annoyed at some of the sloppy parts - Sam being able to pull up the info on the horn and figure out where he can find one practically before he's even finished typing, Sam objecting to nothing that made sense for a pre-law student (I now think that I have a better grasp of the law than Sam. I miss season 2 smart Sam.)

    Mostly I found the episode really slow paced and was surprised by the lack of even one surprising moment. Weakest episode since Mannequin. Maybe weaker than Mannequin.

    Jo was good though. That was the one plus.

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  10. Lorraine15 October 2011 at 03:15

    It was too much like how you kill angels (special sword for them, horn for Osirus). Plus, Dean's NOT feeling any guilt over Castiel? I sure didn't see his face in that montage. They may have had a reason for holding back mention of Castiel, but it simply felt heartless, as far as I was concerned.

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  11. frank15 October 2011 at 03:15

    Really good point.  That could have been a point of extreme guilt especially after Cas' heartfelt apologies for the brief minutes before TOTAL POSSESSION.

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  12. frank15 October 2011 at 03:19

    Seemed "thrown together" to me.  Maybe the writers are having Leviathan withdrawal.

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  13. frank15 October 2011 at 03:21

    If two fans can come up with Lisa/Ben and Castiel in the matter of 55 minutes, what exactly were the writers thinking?  I'm going to have to rewatch as I think I'll be doing a lot more   critiquing. 

    Nice job, chris!!

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  14. Judy Smith15 October 2011 at 03:24

    I really liked it.  Just because they didn't show something in the montage, doesn't mean he doesn't feel guilty about it.  They just chose certain things to focus on.  I liked seeing Jo and I think it gave Dean some closure where her death was concerned.  I understand why Sam was used as well.  Dean does blame himself for all the bad things that happened to Sam, even though it really was the Azazel fault.

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  15. Yavemiel15 October 2011 at 03:24

    It's strange, I never even considered that Cas could come up, I didn't miss him at all. I guess the reasoning behind it could be that Dean considers that Cas pretty much brought down everything on his own head through monumentally bad choices, while Jo, while she did choose the hunting life, was definitely more innocent, more of a victim.

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  16. Dahne15 October 2011 at 03:28

    There was lots to like in this episode but even more to be concerned about.  I didn't like the ending and felt that there needed to be much more for Dean to release some of the guilt he has built up.  In many ways, this episode and not the last one seemed out-of-character.

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  17. Jason Senoraske15 October 2011 at 03:28

    I agree that Dean probably wouldn't feel as guilty about Cas because it was fully Cas's decision to open Purgatory and gobble up everything he found inside. Dean advised against it all many times. We have to remember this is a matter of guilt and not a matter of sadness.

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  18. chris68415 October 2011 at 03:28

    One more thing - I thought the point of getting rid of the angels was so they could start solving things themselves, but they're still getting all their answers fed to them through Bobby. The just make a call and moments later the answer is phoned back to them.

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  19. frank15 October 2011 at 03:29

    Maybe Dean doesn't think Cas is "gone"?!!?

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  20. Bec66615 October 2011 at 03:31

    Yea! Excellent episode. Too much weepy Dean but other than that, great.

    Loved the beginning and Sam thanking Dean for not killing Amy. Whoopsie Dean....

    I also liked the way Sam sort of took over. Ok, hated it too cause it just reinforced how much Dean needs to seek serious help. Sam is rockin' and rolling and Dean is crying in his beer....

    LOVED seeing Jo again and they did her credit. She was great in the episode and she didn't turn on Dean. I liked that. I was afraid they would make her into some kind of vengeful Jo.

    I loved the ending too. For a change Sam is in control and Dean is the messed up one. Well I don't like that but it's nice to FINALLY see Sam say "I don't feel guilty". He's finally come to terms with all the crap and yeah, he's right. He went to hell and spent time in the cage. He's done his time.

    9 out of 10 for me. Bravo Sera, you are rockin' this season.

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  21. chris68415 October 2011 at 03:33

    I thought of Cas too, but its still too raw - I couldn't bring myself to raise the subject yet. I need more time. :(

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  22. frank15 October 2011 at 03:35

    I keep looking back at the "Wendigo" episode. They relied on dad's journal and their heads exclusively.  That episode should be back in the TNT morning rotation for Monday.

    Maybe part of the character development was to put the brakes on the deductive and inductive reasoning and improve field battle techniques.  I think it'd make more sense that way.  More believable to hack away until it dies instead of knowing how to kill it but just aren't able to.

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  23. Kirsten Roberts15 October 2011 at 03:37

    I have mixed feelings about this episode.  I loved everything about it except the plot.

    While I was really excited when I saw the writers were finally touching on Egyptian mythology, it's just that Jo's death was so very long ago and Castiel's death is much more recent. And while it's obvious that Dean isn't quite handling Cas' death so well (with the drinking and getting no sleep), I feel like if it's not handled soon, Dean is going to be broken beyond repair.

    And why the hell has Sam not talked to his brother about this?!

    However!  I do love how sharing-and-caring-over-a-beer-on-the-side-of-the-road scenes.  Jensen and Jared's acting were again, top-notch.  Especially on Jensen's end with all of the emotional crap he has to deal with.

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  24. Bec66615 October 2011 at 03:42

    Why should Dean feel guilty about Castiel? Cas acted on his own, hell Dean tried to talk him out of it.

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  25. Jason Senoraske15 October 2011 at 03:43

    I actually think the relying on others part is something the writers are trying to point out more. It's not just Sam and Dean relying on each other anymore, it's a unit of support that if they need something, they have sources. In true Supernatural fashion though, just when something becomes important, sometimes it disappears, so let's hope this isn't gearing up to take Bobby from us.

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  26. Bec66615 October 2011 at 03:52

    I don't agree. Jo basically laid it all out for Dean and then in his own way so did Sam.Sam got him to realize on the stand that he was feeling guilt for things that weren't his fault. Amy? Well yeah, that one is on him. He lied to Sam so he should feel guilty. Other than that, hopefully Dean will take Sam's cue and move on... PLEASE.

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  27. chris68415 October 2011 at 03:52

    Dean didn't resolve anything in this episode. So I guess the worst is yet to come. Didn't someone on this board say Dean's arc is supposed to be 13 episodes?

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  28. Deangirl15 October 2011 at 03:56

    Bingo!  I don't get the Cas stuff.  Dean had nothing to do with Cas' death, Cas made his own choices.  If Dean is feeling anything about Cas, he's feeling betrayed again.  There is no reason for him to feel guilty on that count.  God knows he has enough other stuff to feel guilty about.

    I had thought about Lisa and Ben, but I think he honestly believes he did the right thing by them so he doesn't have guilt over it anymore.  The one thing I did think they'd bring up was Dad, but I guess he's managed to come to terms with that finally.  I can understand bringing up the stuff with Sam, but why not mention putting his soul back since it led to the hallucinations?   Though it was still the right thing to do.

    At any rate, I thought the episode was really well done.  Loved lawyer Sam and though it frustrated me initially, I loved the twist at the end that Sam, despite the hallucinations, is feeling at peace and Dean's the one torn up.  Not what you would've expected, but then the writers never give us what we would expect.

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  29. Deangirl15 October 2011 at 03:57

    Yes, PLEASE!  Enough already...I really can't stand this side of Dean!

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  30. frank15 October 2011 at 04:00

    Probably due to the sheer number of times Castiel pulled them out of harm's way. And that Castiel did just about everything that was asked of him while Dean fought him every step of the way. Even toward the end, Dean agonized over the possibility of Cas turning. You could see Cas learning a little more each episode about how humans would interact with one another and the less alone he would feel. Cas ended up letting Dean know he was right all along, which would have triggered the guilt with his death.

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  31. Dahne15 October 2011 at 04:03

    I usually try not to read other people's comments before I write my recap but I saw this on the side and had to agree.  Couldn't say it better myself.  Of course, now that I've seen the comments, I'll have to mention Cas in the recap and quite frankly, I didn't think about him at all in this episode.  It never occurred to me that Cas might be one of the people testifying.  

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  32. lostrocks4ever15 October 2011 at 04:04

    this doesn't have anything to do with todays episode (still waiting for it to load), but i was wondering if anyone here watches psych?
    i'm pretty sure in the new episode they used that big room with the pool from the episode playthings (where thelittle ghost girl tries to drown the real girl in the pool) from season 2? may it's just be me going crazy but they walked in there and i was sure it was the same location.  does anyone know anything or did anyone else watch psych and notice this??

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  33. frank15 October 2011 at 04:05

    Lying to Sam could potentially end up being big.  The longer that goes on, the more impact it'll have once it comes out.  Nothing like a little internal conflict when it comes time to fight the Leviathan.

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  34. chris68415 October 2011 at 04:05

    Because Cas repeatedly asked Dean to hear his point of view and Dean wouldn't even listen to him. If they had been able to talk it out, things might have not escalated the way they did. A friend would have listened even if he didn't agree.

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  35. frank15 October 2011 at 04:07

    I STILL don't like the relative ease these "gods" and other super beings are dispatched.  Osiris can grab Dean with one hand and take him in but one sniveling woman distracts him long enough to get horned?  Come on.  (SORRY LADIES!)

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  36. Dahne15 October 2011 at 04:08

    I'd say there is a big difference between getting info on how to kill something and having someone come in and kill it in 2 seconds so you don't have too.  Also, Bobby doesn't have insta-heal powers.  However, I think we are about at the time when the writers are going to pull Bobby away from them too.  If they are truly going to be two brothers against the world, they are going to have to put Bobby out of commission soon.  I only hope that doesn't mean he's dead.

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  37. luis l15 October 2011 at 04:09

    whay point? cass was wrong...

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  38. Dahne15 October 2011 at 04:10

    I agree and that is my biggest complaint with this episode.  It's absolutely pointless if Dean didn't learn anything.  It was great to have Alona Tal back but still, Dean needed to dump some of what he was carrying for this episode to really score for me.  Instead, we still have lies and guilt and angst and a frustrated Dahne.  

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  39. luis l15 October 2011 at 04:11

    He is not going to live all of the guilt in just one ep..

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  40. Bec66615 October 2011 at 04:12

    I agree. I never even thought about Castiel being one of the witnesses. Just like I didn't think of Lisa and Ben. They have no memory of him now so he should have no guilt. Although that whole thing is a pet peeve of mine. What good is erasing their memory. Monsters and Demons don't care what THEY remember. They car what Dean remembers and where he is vulnerable. But I digress... Cas had delusions of grandeur and Dean tried to make him listen. Cas refused.

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  41. Dahne15 October 2011 at 04:13

    I totally agree with that one and that's another thing abut the episode that I have a lot of trouble with.  They had the opportunity to do something great with this plot but it feels like they dropped the ball.  That's two episodes now that I've been more frustrated than excited at its closure.  I really hope next week will turn things around because I have very high hopes for that one.

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  42. chris68415 October 2011 at 04:21

    I'm talking about back in the 20 and 21st episodes of last season. I'm not sure there was a clear right and wrong answer with Cas's decision. One path led to purgatory and the other to Lucifer and Michael being released and the apocalypse begin rebooted. My point is that Dean has a habit if channeling John when he's upset with family - fighting with Sam in season 4 and then with Cas in season 6. Bobby spelled it out when he told Dean that Dean was better than John and his actions needed to be about bringing Sam back.

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  43. frank15 October 2011 at 04:21

    And how exactly was Osiris "making" Jo kill Dean?  Ghost binding spell? Marionette strings?

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  44. SuePo15 October 2011 at 04:21

    I liked this episode. I thought that Dean's guilt was brought up in a very interesting manner. Osiris wasn't judging Dean -- Dean was judging Dean. Dean has felt guilty for everyone he couldn't save for the last 6 years. That's just who he is. He considers saving people one of his true purposes in life, the other being protecting his brother. When he can't do that, he considers it a failure. It was obvious he felt guilty about Jo from the scene back at Bobby's in Abandon All Hope when they burned the photo. He brought them in on the case and Jo came back to save him when the Hellhounds attacked. It was her idea to blow up the hardware store, but Dean had the final say and he let her do it so that they could try to kill Lucifer. If it would've worked, he may not have felt such guilt, but it didn't and as far as he was concerned, Jo and Ellen died for nothing.

    I don't think he feels that much guilt about Castiel. Sad. Disappointed. But not guilt. Yes, the angel saved him and yes, he felt like he owed him, but Cas made a deal with Crowley, he opened Purgatory against Dean's advise. There is only so much a mere human can do to stop an angel from doing anything. Jo was human, and a girl and a fellow hunter to whom they had a connection through their fathers and Ellen. He would've seen her more as someone he should have protected, not allowed to die.

    I liked Lawyer Sam, but I'm not sure the guy would've had a great career. While his arguments were sound, he missed the point. It wasn't Osiris he needed to convince, it was Dean. Osiris told him as much and he still didn't get it. But, in the end, he found a way -- with Bobby's help -- to save his brother. He couldn't kill Osiris, but icing him for a couple thousand years was a good 'band-aid'. I think having Bobby help is making it more dramatic when they can't call on him in the future (if that happens.)

    All in all, I thought this was a good episode. Dean's lie about Amy is going to come to a head soon, but how could he tell Sam the truth when Sam admitted he finally feels good? As an overprotective big brother, Dean is willing to do whatever Sam needs to heal -- even if that means lying to him. It's not a good idea, because when has that ever worked out for them, but it is the Winchester way. 

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  45. Dahne15 October 2011 at 04:22

    I never expect Dean to be guiltless.  He's lived with guilt since his mother died.  It's a natural reaction for him.  I just want to see him deal and move on past some of his guilt, especially the things he has to know in his head aren't his fault.  He carries to big a burden and it's been wearing on him for far too long now.  If we are ever going to have smiling brothers again (even for a brief moment every third episode), the writers are going to have to let Dean put down some of the baggage.  It's getting to hard for me as a fan to carry.

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  46. frank15 October 2011 at 04:22

    Cas wanted to contest Raphael taking heaven over.

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  47. jensenfan197815 October 2011 at 04:25

    So did I and right in the middle of it.

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  48. jensenfan197815 October 2011 at 04:26

    I guess the guilt that hurt the deepest were JO, Sam, and lying to Sam about Amy.

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  49. SuePo15 October 2011 at 04:26

    But Cas was wrong. He admitted it. He apologized for it. He 'overreached'. Why is Dean the bad guy for not 'listening' when he was pointing out what Cas only figured out after everything went to hell? The Leviathon escaping purgatory is directly Castiel's fault. He put the world at risk without regard to anything but his own agenda. Cas didn't want to talk it out, he simply wanted Dean to get out of his way and let him do what Dean knew was wrong. I think Dean was being more of a friend by not enabling him to destroy the world. You don't humor someone who is intent on causing harm. You try to make him see the problem.

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  50. chris68415 October 2011 at 04:29

    Trying to stop the apocalypse in an intent to do harm?

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  51. jensenfan197815 October 2011 at 04:31

    I agree.  I love Castiel, but I don't really miss him.  I've loved the show from  the beginning.  I always have and the show is Winchesters.  I don 't think Dean had any reason to feel guilt about Castiel.  Mourning him?  Absolutely.  Guilt is where he's blaming himself.  He does over Jo, Sam and lying to Sam about Amy.  Those are top priority on his list right now.  

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  52. chris68415 October 2011 at 04:32

    It's an insta-fix and sloppy writing to have a solution so easily drop into their lap.

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  53. SmallvilleSupernaturalCastle15 October 2011 at 04:36

    I have to admit i never thought this would happen but officially now after watching this episode Dean as been kicked out and demoted as my favorite winchester. Sam is now my favorite. For the first 2 seasons i liked both and was letting the characters evolve before i chose my favorite. then for the 3rd-6th i chose dean he was my favorite but after killing amy, having all that guilt and not doing anything about it. All his whining is getting so sickening. Im glad Sam is happier and freeer now its refreshing and now Sam is my favorite. Dean u epically failed so far this season. I did tho like the funny part of how dean hasnt been with a ladie in literraly like 3 or 4 years. Also i loved Jo i wish they have her back more. I didnt really think there was a point of bobby. I hope next weeks is better.

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  54. Dahne15 October 2011 at 04:37

    What I think is sloppy writing isn't the fact that Bobby told them.  That should be a relatively easy thing for him to find since a lot is known about Egyptians compared to Leviathans.  What is sloppy is that a god could be that easy to kill.  It's not like there weren't ram horns in Egypt.  Shouldn't a god make it harder for his enemies to kill him.  I mean at least Eve chose a practically extinct animal to be vulnerable to.  This is like an Egyptian god being killed by sand.

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  55. Dahne15 October 2011 at 04:38

    I'm pretty sure Dean was with Lisa.  :-)

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  56. Sharyn dougherty15 October 2011 at 04:41

    Maybe they glossed over the "most important" things in your opinion, because they aren't the most important things in Dean's opinion.  Dean has no reason to feel guilty about hell or Lisa and Ben.  He is hurt by those things, but that doesn't equal guilt.  What he feels guilty about is dragging these two "kids" in his mind, into this life and he feels he ruined their lives.  I think that sam did a very good job of trying to show Dean that they were both going to head down the path that they ended on whether Dean took them down or not.  
    Being sad and upset about a situation (Lisa/ben and castiel) is not the same as feeling guilt.  

    I liked the episode because it got to the root of Dean's guilt...even if its not what we think it should be.

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  57. SmallvilleSupernaturalCastle15 October 2011 at 04:42

    to shae lol :) it seems tho like forever tho considering most of the time with lisa was between 5 and 6 lol. is sam your favorite now to? You should do a poll of whose the favorite winchester in each season and/or currently. that would be fun. I vote Sam now. But dean earlier on.

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  58. Sharyn dougherty15 October 2011 at 04:43

    Why would Dean feel any guilt about Cass.  There is being sad and hurt...but that doesn't equal guilt at all.

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  59. Laurie Edwards15 October 2011 at 04:43

    I never thought I'd vote any "Supernatural" episode POOR, but tonight's show was so limp, so completely devoid of energy or surprise that I have to vote it as crap. Even the presence of Jo didn't really help.

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  60. Sharyn dougherty15 October 2011 at 04:49

    But remember, this didn't kill the god.  It just put him down for awhile.  ( a couple hundred years)Like Bobby said, the god will come back, but by that time, it will be someone else's problem.  It was the easy solution, I will give you that, but they needed a quickie solution before Dean was killed off.

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  61. SammyWsGirl15 October 2011 at 04:50

    What does Dean have to feel guilty over in regards to Cas? Castiel made his own decisions and brought all his own consequences on all by himself. Dean's not responsible for Castiel. Castiel is responsible for Castiel. Castiel also isn't Sam. Dean has nothing to feel guilty for in regards to Castiel. Feeling grief and mourning for the loss of Castiel is entirely different than feeling guilt over him, and Dean has no just cause to.

    I could ask the same about Dean. Why hasn't he bothered talking to Sam about Sam's Hell without actually yelling at him for it and making him feel bad over it? Maybe because while Sam can sit there and claim he feels pretty good, deep down we know he isn't considering he's inflicting harm on himself to bring himself back to reality. You'd think that since Sam has admitted to seeing Lucifer while brushing his teeth, Dean would open up his eyes realize Sam's not as good as his little brother is claiming to be.

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  62. Sharyn dougherty15 October 2011 at 04:51

    I still don't understand where people think that Dean feels guilty about Cass.  There is nothing to feel bad about.  Dean did everything that he could...Cass chose his path.

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  63. SuePo15 October 2011 at 04:56

    Teaming up with a demon to open Purgatory is. Why did he think God had it closed off for millenium? He had no idea what was in there.

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  64. jillyanne15 October 2011 at 04:57

    Oh please no. No voting on favorite Winchesters. Ever. 
    SpoilerTV is one of the few sites where brother wars are hardly an issue. No matter how good the intention is, a favorite Winchester poll of any description will always end bloody.

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  65. SammyWsGirl15 October 2011 at 04:58

    But Sam didn't kill him. He just slapped a bandaid over the problem and put the god away temporarily. Osiris can come back after a couple of centuries, if not sooner through finding a way on his own. The god isn't dead. He's just been put away.

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  66. SuePo15 October 2011 at 04:58

    Oh come on Jilly! I want to see Dahne's take on this one. :) *evil grin*

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  67. frank15 October 2011 at 05:00

    It's part of being family. You share everything.

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  68. Supernatural_Loving_Fan86715 October 2011 at 05:01

    I loved it. It might have not been as amazing as the last 3 episodes to me, but in the end I still loved it. While we might have not gotten a few small conclusions to some of Dean's problems, it escalates his storyline to the next level. I'm excited to see what will happen in future episodes as Dean continues to hide guilt and killing Amy. I loved the court scenes, Judge Sam, Osiris, Jo, and flashbacks of Dean. Great job so far. :)

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  69. jillyanne15 October 2011 at 05:01

    You would ;) I guess I just like a peaceful life - if everyone was as reasonable as Dahne there wouldn't be a problem :P

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  70. chris68415 October 2011 at 05:03

    If Dean seriously feels more guilt over Jo dying than torturing and enjoying torturing souls in Hell then I don't know what to say. Some of those souls might have been people like himself - who sold their soul to save a loved one. I mentioned Lisa and Ben only because I thought the whole point of having their memories erased was because of guilt.

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  71. jillyanne15 October 2011 at 05:05

    For once I agree with everything you said (now there's a first) :P

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  72. Supernatural_Loving_Fan86715 October 2011 at 05:10

    I agree with this. When I was watching the court scene, I didn't think for a second about Cas and Lisa and Ben, because the subjects that popped up were much more guilt worthy for Dean. Cas chose his path and was almost at the end when Sam and Dean figured out, and Dean tried to reason with Cas. Some people argued that Dean wasn't listening but I disagree. I think Dean was just shocked and hurt by the betrayal, and he didn't have a lot of time to think over or reason with Cas in the end. As for Lisa and Ben, he made them forget him. Why would he feel more guilty about that then about apparently ruining Sam and Jo's lives, killing Jo, and hiding that he killed Amy? 

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  73. frank15 October 2011 at 05:15

    Ellen and Jo never sat out a fight.  Jo was on the front line when they broke into Crowley's house. It was her choice to go.

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  74. jillyanne15 October 2011 at 05:21

    My only criticism of Defending Your Life is that I'd have liked Dean to come clean to Sam at the end. I understand why he didn't - Sam had just told him he was ok - but still......
    Apart from that, I found it intense and suspenseful, and I loved Osiris (even though he was a little too easy to kill)

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  75. Katie122715 October 2011 at 05:28

    that's EXACTLY why I putted 'great' and not awesome :( Dean told Cas was his brother...and bang Cas is dead...he sure has to feel guilty about it :(

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  76. Jason Senoraske15 October 2011 at 05:28

    If you're looking for an explanation then I think you will be sorely disappointed. This isn't Star Trek where every device and thing is at least covered by a sentence that seems plausible. We've always had to deal with things that we don't get to know because the brothers don't know either. Heck even a great deal of their lore could be or is faulty. What we do know is he summoned Jo up with a snap and he was considered a deity, so control of ghosts doesn't bug me.

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  77. SuePo15 October 2011 at 05:31

    Wow! I think I have to go lie down now. ;)

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  78. Jason Senoraske15 October 2011 at 05:32

    I do think they need to step up their game as far as how monsters are killed or how the brothers handle monsters. Not everything need sot be ganked to solve a problem, but I do understand that they spent a lot of time with character inspection and so less time was allowable for how a monster is dealt with. Did I miss something or did they not really show how Sam dealt with the Rabbi? I think it would be neat if they showed how there are hunters in ever profession and how this particular Rabbi happened to understand his situation and agree to letting him use it.

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  79. MeatyStakes15 October 2011 at 05:33

    About the "pagan" gods getting ganked to easily, not my favorite thing, but it has precedent. It seems that in the SPN universe, pagan gods are just high level monsters or something, capable of being killed or vanished by physical force.

    You can chop anything to death in SPN with relative easy if you have the right tools, and I can live with that. It unerves me that they placed all mythologies, powerwise, under the judeochristian mythos, but they made that desition years ago and I kinda deal with it.

    About if Dean should have felt guilty about Cas, If it had happened I had believed, but I wasn't necessary either. I mean, Dean begged Cas several times to back-track the shit he was doing. He could have felt guilty for not pushing more, but besides that, Dean did everything in his power to talk Cas out.

    I would have like that he felt some guilt for Cas, but I can believe that he doesn't. But I do thing that he is grieving for his friend and the bad choices he made.

    Overall I liked the episode, but the whole Amy guilt thing, at this point of the road, it feels contrived to add another layer to Dean n' Sam messed up secrets, almost unnecesary.

    Loved Tal as Jo, It really made me miss her character, but it was a great send off.

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  80. SuePo15 October 2011 at 05:35

    I hope not, but I think you may be right about Bobby. Being able to rely on him has become so convenient for them, I can see them yanking that lifeline away to avoid detection from the Leviathon. I just hope they don't permanently lose Bobby. 

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  81. SuePo15 October 2011 at 05:37

    He may not have learned anything, but with Jo's testimony and Sam's, maybe a seed was planted that will give him a push toward letting go of some of the guilt? At least he was listening, right?

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  82. Supernatural_Loving_Fan86715 October 2011 at 05:38

    I think you misunderstood. When I said killing Jo, I meant he feels guilty about Jo's death. I know that it was their decision to join in the fight, but that doesn't change the fact that, according to Dean, she was just a kid. At first I thought that Dean felt guilty about Jo because of the fact that Sam and Dean asked Ellen and Jo to help them, and in the end Jo died trying to save Dean from Hell Hounds, and Ellen went along with her. In the end, they didn't kill Lucifer and the mission was completely pointless. So technically two close friends died for no reason.
    After this episode, I also realized that Dean might have thought he was the reason Jo went into hunting so young, and died. This episode sort of proves it.

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  83. frank15 October 2011 at 05:41

    I just think that Sam killing a god as easily as Lucifer did is a bit of a stretch.  Hell, it took Merrill a lot longer to dispatch a lowly alien with water and a Louisville Slugger in Signs.  The episode had so much potential.  Dean's guilt could have been half of it alone.

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  84. Supernatural_Loving_Fan86715 October 2011 at 05:42

    Wait, when did Dean yell at Sam about his Hell? I'm not contradicting anything, just wondering.

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  85. Supernatural_Loving_Fan86715 October 2011 at 05:44

    Sam didn't kill him. He just forced him  to "hibernate?" for a few centuries.

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  86. frank15 October 2011 at 05:49

    Which would negate intent to cause harm. No one outside of Death and god knew about the Leviathan. Guilt is not action formed only. It is also formed by inaction.

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  87. Dahne15 October 2011 at 05:51

    He has to feel sorrow about it and probably some anger too but I don't think he has to feel guilt.  

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  88. frank15 October 2011 at 05:53

    They could have had a number of people testify. Castiel, Lisa, Ben, Lenore, Adam, the vessel for Azazel's son (Dean's first killing of an innocent), his dad and on and on. Would lead to a pretty good discussion about where guilt begins and ends.

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  89. Dahne15 October 2011 at 05:58

    I agree that Dean shoulders tremendous guilt over what he did in hell.  Even though he had ample motivation to do it, there is no way that his conscious would let him let that go.  I expect that even if he dropped everything else he felt guilty about, hell torture would still be in his conscious.  My guess as to why they didn't include a hell storyline is because we never actually saw anyone Dean tortured in hell so if they brought a person in for that, the audience would be lost.  Jo and Sam were far more personal to both Dean and the fandom.

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  90. frank15 October 2011 at 05:58

    They've always had some form of support whether it was John, Bobby, Castiel, Balthazar  or even god himself.  It would follow the plan for the season of being in "uncharted waters" if Bobby were hidden for a while.  But then again they are picking up another ally here in a couple of episodes. The computer/surveillance whiz comes in in ep 7 I believe.  Around the time the new bad guy shows up.

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  91. frank15 October 2011 at 06:00

    It was pretty much Sam got caught, Sam's hiding in alley ready to stab the god in the back. No idea what happened in the church.

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  92. Dahne15 October 2011 at 06:01

    I thought it was about the hell hounds too.  I still think that is a more powerful reason along with sheer survivor's guilt.  I think that not stopping Lucifer is still a part of it though.

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  93. Dahne15 October 2011 at 06:05

    I got the feeling that Dean was just saying what he needed to say to get out of the situation, not that he really believed what he said.  I hope he believes it or that he will sometime soon because we as the audience really need Dean to move on and have a healthier attitude about himself.  As for Amy, I am of the mind that he was right to kill her but completely wrong to lie to Sam about it.  But i have successfully avoided all arguments about that one last week so I will shut up about it now.  :-)

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  94. Dahne15 October 2011 at 06:08

    Ha!  I was thinking that those ghosts learned how to move physical objects a whole lot faster than the brothers did in Death Takes a Holiday.  I'm putting it down to Egyptian god help but yeah that's another question for Flo, the continuity fairy.

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  95. Dahne15 October 2011 at 06:09

    This is my hope and I hope he starts unburdening sooner rather than later.  It would be nice to have some momentary joy for the brothers again.  And not as one of them marries a monster or whatever that episode is going to be about.

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  96. frank15 October 2011 at 06:09

    Not an explanation as much but that was a major plot point. That needs something even as simple as Bobby finding it in his research and telling Sam. The rabbi, not so much. Sam had the ram horn, knew what he needed it for and how to use it. The rabbi was purely incidental. I don't even know why they put him in unless it was a time issue. Plus the other victims were all killed by direct actions. Dean had no direct tie to jo's death. Too many small inconsistencies popping up. It is an easy fix.  I wrote a character back in the late 70's that developed powers in late adolescence. I first gave no explanation as to how he got them. My professor at the time had me write the play two ways: with a reason and without.  When I read the two versions...big difference.

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  97. Dahne15 October 2011 at 06:12

    That would have been awesome Jason.  I was guessing that Sam puppy dog eyed him and promised to bring it back so the Rabbi wouldn't call the police on him.

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  98. frank15 October 2011 at 06:14

    You're right. I used the word dispatch before for that very reason but I got in a hurry. You guys can type a heck of a lot faster than I can.  But still, the Whore of Babylon put up a better fight!!!!

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  99. Dahne15 October 2011 at 06:15

    True he isn't dead, but for the brothers purposes he is.  I find it hard to believe that an Egyptian god would be taken out even for a century by something that mundane in the Egyptian world.  It would be like a dog being able to take out a god today.

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  100. frank15 October 2011 at 06:16

    They've got to drag that out a little while longer.  It can be a major foible (oxymoron??) for a big plot point sometime later on.

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  101. frank15 October 2011 at 06:20

    I think a lot of people out there think Dean feels guilty about Castiel's death. Dean went from acceptance, (Cas, you child), to  relief when he woke up to disbelief when the Leviathan took over. he's run the gamut of emotion. Guilt isn't a stretch.

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  102. Dahne15 October 2011 at 06:21

    I don't feel guilty because of what my family members do.  I feel bad for the people involved and I feel sorry for the consequences they have to go through, but I don't feel guilty for their choices.  

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  103. Dahne15 October 2011 at 06:24

    Plus, he did not even explore other options.  He made a pact with Crowley and then hid from the brothers for over a year.  Of course that might have been because he was manipulating Sam too. 

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  104. frank15 October 2011 at 06:24

    Take my keyboard away, please. I just looked up the dictionary definition of guilt!!!!!

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  105. Dahne15 October 2011 at 06:27

    I don't remember that either but then again I'm hopped up on cold medicine now with very little sleep.  My memory is a bit shot.

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  106. frank15 October 2011 at 06:28

    Or remorse or a moral violation of which he feels responsible. It'll be a back and forth about the true and/or implied meaning of guilt.  I, like you, can't believe Dean feels no remorse over Castiel, his dad, what he did in hell, etc.

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  107. Wilson Crawford15 October 2011 at 06:32

    My thoughts:

    1) Dean's attitude has been unbearable lately, and now it seems that was done with the purpose to bring his issues to the forefront, and to emphasize that he's actually the one that isn't ok right now. Later in the episode when he's made to eat his guilt it made for a good build-up of all the things he's had to deal with lately, and yet hasn't been able to. Amy's murder had a more profound effect on him than he (or I) thought it would...

    2) I LOVED THE GOOD WIFE REFERENCE! I might even know which episode that one was from! Totally my favorite part of the episode. lol EVERYONE NEEDS TO WATCH THAT AMAZING SHOW.

    3) The God was played well, but the whole courtroom scenes were meh... One moment he's allowing things to go objectively, then he's telling them how it is and saying that he's in control, then he allows more objectivity and then he says it doesn't even matter what he or Sam thinks, it's all up to Dean's opinion, and anybody who's ever heard of Dean Winchester knows that he's got a "Compelling case" against him... So, it made the sloppy court scene that much more...sloppy. (Perhaps I'm used to all the back-and-forth stuff from The Good Wife? O_o) 

    4) The People in Peril this week were too derivative for me... I didn't like the car being in the apartment, and I didn't like the ineffective explosion of gore from the dog attack. (That dog didn't have that big of a mouth!) The murderer's ghosts didn't really look that menacing compared to past ghosts (even the flicker special effect wasn't as effective) and it was just all so familiar in a bad way. Sort've like a standalone episode from season 6...

    5) Jo was great, and her scenes with Dean were the highlight of the episode. It ended a tad too easily for me though. Sam just dodged the guy in the temple, then drove however long it took to get back to town, and kills the god (way too easily again!) just in time to avert an explosion. I'd have rather seen Dean try to fight his way out in the end after Jo disappeared, but the lighter had still lit, and there was a nice explosion or something... I don't know...


    Overall, it had some good moments, it gave us more momentum in how both Sam and Dean are progressing in their respective issues, (Sammy is chipper as ever...Dean not so much) and we see that Amy wasn't just another monster to Dean. He felt truly awful about going behind Sam, and killing her against his will.

    Hopefully next week's episode will be more fun. :D CORDY+SPIKE FTW.

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  108. frank15 October 2011 at 06:34

    I kind of thought he reached in his pocket, slapped a wad of twenties on the desk and left.  And Jason, that would have been a great way to get rid of Osiris since he couldn't have been killed. Some type of ritual. (They were big on rituals back then!) That could have developed the character a little more and may have been better for a crotchety old man like me!!

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  109. Dahne15 October 2011 at 06:34

    Sorry.  I will never create a poll that purposely causes brother wars.  I loathe brother wars even more than I loathe Wincest and Destiel so it won't be me that gets that started.  However, the general trend of the fandom it seems was:

    season 1 = Sam
    season 2 = even
    season 3 = even
    season 4 = Dean
    season 5 = Dean
    season 6 = more even but still Dean 
    season 7 = Sam

    I never follow the trend but Dean hate is on the rise in many places and I would expect to see Sam winning far more polls in the future.  My fondest wish is that everyone could have their favorite and yet still respect the other brother as well.  Far too much energy is spent in this fandom over which brother is the best when the truth is that they both have their own strengths and weaknesses and neither of them would last without the either.  It's both brothers or neither in terms of the story and that's exactly how I like it.  And I will be one happy fan if this comment does not lead to brother wars either.

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  110. frank15 October 2011 at 06:37

    Just made me think of the old Sam Kinison comedy routine about sand.

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  111. Dahne15 October 2011 at 06:38

    No fears on this one.  :-)  You know how much brother wars irk me.  I purposely try to avoid anything that even smacks of starting one.  One might even call me a nag because I go into teacher mode the second one breaks out.  Give me a cape and I will be the staunch defender of keeping SpoilerTV brother war and flame war free.  :-P

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  112. Dahne15 October 2011 at 06:41

    You are truly evil.  Did I perform to your expectations?  I think I dodged nicely.  :-P

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  113. Wilson Crawford15 October 2011 at 06:43

    The way I see things, Dean doesn't have guilt for what happened to Cas because he told him over and over not to do it and then something happened that was awful because of what Dean told him not to do. I think Dean feels more sad in general about the loss of Cas than straight guilt. Whether or not Dean was wrong in that respect to listen to Cas when he needed Dean to stand down, Dean's got that whole stubborn as a mule disposition and probably still has the same opinion about what Cas was doing even at this point. His judgment has always been unyielding in this show... (and I've also noticed, practically prophetic...)

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  114. Katie122715 October 2011 at 06:43

    I get it that Cas did a lot of bad and all and that a big part of what happened was his fault, but at the same time, he asked help to Dean at the end of 6x20, asked Dean to listen to the reasons why he did what he did, he asked Dean to go with him in the 6x21 and twice Dean didn't took 1 second to listen, he didn't took 1 second to try to understand or to propose any other solutions. at the end of the 6x21 too Cas said he was sorry and Dean clearly didn't care. He let Cas down. It was both their fault.

    not like Dean proposed any another solution to beat Rapheal, Cas was stuck between doing nothing like Dean said and let Rapheal free Lucifer and Micheal and put the boys in danger or try to protect them. Sure he was totally wrong, but at the same time he had no others solution to protect them, Dean didn't want to listen, didn't had any solutions, he was stuck...sure he could've found some way to force Dean to talk to him, like coming in his dreams or something, sure breaking Sam's wall was wrong and Dean had reasons to feel angry and sad, but again, if maybe he had took time to listen to Cass when Cas asked they could've found some other way to fight

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  115. frank15 October 2011 at 06:46

    And it looked like he got mummified on the way out, too.

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  116. jillyanne15 October 2011 at 06:47

    Anyone else notice the guy being chased by the dog running past McOwen's Irish pub (the bar from Mannequin 3 The Reckoning)?

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  117. jillyanne15 October 2011 at 06:49

    Woo hoo SuperDahne saves the day again!

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  118. Dahne15 October 2011 at 06:49

    The lying has to stop from all parties.  It has never worked for them.  It always makes things harder and it shows an amazing lack of growth in the characters and the writers.  I hope that Dean admits killing Amy before Sam finds out on his own.  If Sam can't trust Dean then we are exactly where we were in season 4 and surely no one wants a repeat of that.  The brothers need to be on the same page before the Leviathans take out all their other resources and all they have left is themselves.  Here's hoping that we get another emotional Impala hood chat were everything is spoken and nothing is hidden.  Yes, even I am hoping for the emo scene if only so we can move on to the action and leave this subplot alone.

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  119. frank15 October 2011 at 06:50

    Lisa and Ben got kidnapped because Crowley wanted Dean out of the way. Lisa was almost dead when Castiel healed her. Dean has to feel some guilt/remorse about this. Had he backed off like Castiel asked, Sam's wall would have been fixed and Crowley wouldn't have taken them. And we wouldn't have a story, either.

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  120. frank15 October 2011 at 07:02

    I see your point. I still feel guilty because my cousin married a lying, cheating concubine and I couldn't stop him. I guess it boils down to the individual. I'm not Dean nor do I write his character.  I'll focus on the whole killing the god with a BB gun concept now.

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  121. Dahne15 October 2011 at 07:07

    As soon as I heard the Good Wife reference I thought of you!  Oh, and I agree with almost everything you said, especially about the writing and the courtroom scenes.  In fact, I had a problem with the writing last episode too.  I really have problems with Dabb and Loflin episodes I guess.  Here's hoping next week will be far crisper and better paced than the last two.

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  122. frank15 October 2011 at 07:15

    And by not standing down, it forced Crowley to take Ben and Lisa since Castiel wouldn't let him kill the Winchesters.  Lisa was dying until Castiel healed her in the hospital. Dean's actions led to the kidnapping and Lisa's possession, injuries and subsequent memory wiping. Does Dean feel sad because of this or guilty that it happened because of him? 

    Sam needed the demon blood in order to keep his vessel intact while occupied by Lucifer. That resulted in Lucifer going back into the cage. So while he was right when it came to Sam and the demon blood he was wrong because of the end result.

    It just comes down to the individual and their feelings on where sadness ends and guilt/remorse begins.  It's like McEnroe vs Borg in tennis. It'll never end.

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  123. Wilson Crawford15 October 2011 at 07:22

    They're writing my brothers like monkeys that have the inability to finish their own sentences! Get me Edlund, ASAP folks!

    You heard it from the Moose's mouh: THE GOOD WIFE.
    If you like DAMN good dialogue, that's where you need to be, Dahne I SWEAR. :D

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  124. Wilson Crawford15 October 2011 at 07:23

    I swear it's like instead of being in the United states, they're circling around some random section of Canada or something.

    :D I love it when they recycle sets. I think I remember the hotel they stayed in too. (Appointment in Samarra maybe? Maybe Mystery Spot?)

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  125. prpleight15 October 2011 at 08:44

    So, I had one week liking Jared's hair. :-)

    I really liked the ep.  I loved that Osiris' weighed the guilt people were carrying...rather than making his own declaration.  But I couldn't help but want to make the trial fair by adding...a shrink to the mix.  (Dean needs a shrink.  :-)  And Jo tried.  I loved that!  I'm here to kill you but I don't want to and you don't deserve it.  Awesome.   It was nice to see Sam come to Dean's aid (in a way other than just wielding a gun).  it's been a while since we've gotten to see that. 

    I was really surprised that Jo was sent to kill Dean though...they seemed to be making it clear that what was weighing most heavy on Dean was Amy.

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  126. prpleight15 October 2011 at 08:50

    I agree with you.  As I said in my initial comments I was surprised that Osiris sent Jo to dispatch Dean. I think it would have been a much more satisfying ep if Dean had been able to accept that one thing.  That he wasn't responsible for Jo's choices.  He didn't take her on that first job.  She took that on her own.  I thought that was where they were going when we got the discussion between Jo and Dean...but they didn't.

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  127. jillyanne15 October 2011 at 09:29

    Wow Rochey - great idea!  I'd pay REAL money to see John Winchester put on trial for what he did to his sons. 
    And I agree with you "I think Dean confuses grief with guilt" - because, while most children learn emotional resilience from their parents, Dean & Sam learned how to shoot, and pick locks, and gank monsters. All really useful stuff for staying alive obviously, but not exactly the key to having a healthy level of self esteem/self worth/self anything except self-beating-up/self hatred etc etc.....
    These boys just make me wanna hug them, then slap them silly, them hug them again. 

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  128. nellymendez15 October 2011 at 10:21

    the story line was a little weak for me and the action slow the end dean continous keeping secrets to sam is not clousure in that.

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  129. KatHale15 October 2011 at 11:58

    I'm torn..It was a good episode,just not as good as I was expecting.It was great seeing Jo(and Alona Tal) again,I really liked Osiris and the general idea was very promising.

    My first problem (and I haven't read the comments yet,so it may be just me) was part of the dialogue during the trial.Sam was great with all the objections and the Good Wife reference.I just found the part where Sam is asking Dean questions a little awkward.I can't really put my finger on why it bothered me.Maybe they wrote it like that to show that Sam and Dean didn't know how to handle the situation,but it felt kind of weird.

    The second was the finale.I mean,Dean went through all that,I was expecting him to tell the truth about Amy.To be honest,I don't want the whole Amy thing hanging over their heads for long,partly because it can cause problems between them,but also because I'm not really interested talking about Amy five episodes from now.So,I was expecting Dean to tell the truth.Because now it's not clear if there was a point in all this.I mean,maybe the point was to make Dean understand that he doesn't have to be guilty about all these things,but I don't really think they got through to him.During the trial the way he was talking was like:I'm saying these things because I don't wanna die,but I don't really believe them.
    It could be though,that the trial was the beginning of something and I'm willing to hold judgment until I see if it taught them something.
    These were my issues with the episode.Of course,there were also things I really liked.

    As I said,Sam was great as a lawyer.He knew where he wanted to lead the witnesses,even though he did it kind of awkwardly at times.
    Dean's scenes with Jo were also great and heartbreaking.Especially the ones in the motel.

    Now,I don't know why,but I was expecting Cas to come up at some point.I wouldn't normally,but it was mentioned multiple times by Sera and Jensen that this is part of why Dean is guilty.And to be clear,I don't think Dean is guilty because he feels responsible about what Cas did(although,I stand behind my opinion that he handled things very,very poorly).I think he feels guilty because he thinks that if he had realized sooner that something was off,he may have been able to stop him and he would still be alive.
    Since we know that Misha will be back,I wonder how the writers will work until then.Will they mention him again or do they want us to put him in the back of our minds and then shock us all with his sudden appearance.If they're aiming for the second,I'm not sure it'll work.

    I think next week will be lighter and it'll be a welcome change,because when then really start dealing with the Leviathans(which they haven't yet)fun will be the last thing on everyone's mind!  : )

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  130. tvmonkey15 October 2011 at 12:02

    at last someone who bloody gets it! This is exactly what I'm reading from the show. 

    Its really interesting how Dean is now the one whose other shoe looks like its about to drop when we thought it's be Sam or actually Dean thought it would be. Now Sam seems OK on the outside and everyone is so cought up in Dean's issues as they are the ones that are being outwardly projected that I have a feeling Sam's crash is coming and most people wont see it coming?

    Bloody hell did that even make sense?

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  131. Rochey_115 October 2011 at 12:21

    Hi tvmonkey :))

    Yes it made perfect sense...I loved what you said....Sam has a habit of deluding himself that he's coping, even when he's surrounded by flames...He needs to 'control' even if it's just an illusion....He's gonna have a rude awakening me thinks :((

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  132. Kat15 October 2011 at 13:28

    I want to like this over and over until its at 100 likes or more. Here Here! Said what I feel perfectly!

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  133. chris68415 October 2011 at 14:03

    I'm going to make one last comment about the guilt thing and then I'm moving on. Suppose you had a family member, a child possibly, with a drug problem. You chose the hard-line approach - do it my way or get out of the house. The child left and died from living on the streets. This doesn't make the addiction your fault, but how can you not have some guilt and some second guessing with the way you handled things if you loved the person? This is where I see the guilt with Dean and Cas - with the breakdown in communication once Dean became aware of Cas's situation.

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  134. chris68415 October 2011 at 14:24

    Agree with what you said about Dean. Interesting thoughts about Sam. One of my issues with the Sam part is that he feels released from the guilt because he went to hell, not because he realized that most of the crap he's been carrying around was never really his fault to begin with. I also have a problem with the fact that two of the things Osiris focused on shouldn't have been issues - Jo made her own choices and Sam got back into the life because YED killed Jess, and they should know by now that nothing they could have done would have stopped her death.

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  135. Dahne15 October 2011 at 14:35

    Let's hope that after some non-alcohol-induced reflection Dean takes what Jo and Sam said to heart and extrapolates that none of this is his fault.  In fact, you could lay all the blame for everything right at Mary's door.

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  136. Elena C.15 October 2011 at 14:37

    I LOVED the Dean/Jo scenes. Got all teared up.

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  137. Dahne15 October 2011 at 14:38

    Dean tried to reach out with both logic and emotional appeal.  Cas shot him down both times.  To Dean who didn't sit through TMWWBK, it appeared that Cas has made up his mind and nothing was going to change.

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  138. Dahne15 October 2011 at 14:44

    Or Cas could have forced Crowley to give Lisa and Ben back.  Cas had the upper hand in that relationship as the end clearly showed.  I think Dean feels guilty for involving Lisa and Ben in the hunting life more then because of the kidnapping itself.  I don't understand why people think Dean should have backed down to support Cas in his run for Purgatory.  It was clearly a bad idea.

    Dean had issues with Sam drinking demon blood in season 4 when Sam was addicted and acting just like an addict.  By the time Sam was heading into the Lucifer-body-control plan, Sam had just as many issues with drinking blood as Dean but they both knew it was the only way.  

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  139. Dahne15 October 2011 at 14:50

    "They're writing my brothers like monkeys that have the inability to finish their own sentences"
    BWAH!!!  I am officially stealing this.  That's it perfectly.  Usually I don't have a lot of trouble with the writing in general but it's really sucked out loud the last two episodes.  

    by the way, I did watch the first 1.5 seasons of Good Wife.  Then I kind of petered out.  Not sure why.  I'll try to catch up over the hiatus.

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  140. Dahne15 October 2011 at 15:03

    I 100% agree about a John trial.  In fact, I wish someone had put him on trial for real and the brothers would be taken in by Bobby or someone else.  2 parents, 2 bad choices, and 2 messed up sons.  Thanks!  I also agree that Dean internalizes guilt to an unbearable degree.  It's classic for a child who loses a parent so young.  I also hope that Dean "gets it" as he processes what Sam and Jo said.  However, I live in fear that the whole thing will be dropped like usual and we'll be stuck with an episode that ends up being filler and a guest star machine.  I am willing to concede that if Dean does learn something from the episode, I will like it better at season's end than I do right now.  Right now it feels like wasted potential and a lot of it.  

    I also agree about Dean's self-esteem and sometimes I want to just shake him until he gets what others see in him.  If the writers really want to show Dean growth, they would start here and with the lying tendency.  Nothing good comes from lying about Amy.  I also loved how Sam stepped up to try to show Dean that he wasn't responsible.  I knew when Osiris called Sam to the stand he wasn't going to get what he wanted.  No way Sam blames Dean for Jessica or the hunting life.  Just the idea that Brady was placed in his life during his college years proves that none of that is on Dean.  That's one place where I think even Dean sees that much of it isn't his fault.  Now if he could just resolve that feeling bad for someone and carry guilt are too different things.  I'm glad Sam sees that now because he used to be jut as bad at carrying around guilt.

    And I agree that things are going to crash down hard and I am not looking forward to the fall out. I also agree that Sam is overidentifying with Amy in a similar way that he overidentified with Max in season 1.  Sam was nothing like Max in season 1 and he's nothing like Amy in this season.  Sam has a mental issue that was not his fault.  Amy made a choice and would choose to kill again if it came to saving her kid.  They are both in bad decisions but that doesn't mean they are the same.  Sam has to hold on to hope or else we are going to slip into despair again and I had enough of that in season 5.

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  141. Deangirl15 October 2011 at 15:05

    Um, by that time Cas had already made his decision, without involving Dean - by his own choice.  As soon as Dean was aware of what was really going on, he immediately tried to talk Cas out of it.   He even left Sam behind when he was experiencing the wall having fallen to try and stop Cas, even though it was clearly going against his instincts.

    Yes, he could feel guilty over Lisa and Ben being dragged into it, but again I think  he feels that having had Lisa healed and their memories wiped he's doine right by them.  But as far as Cas is concerned, that's not on him.  He couldn't make the decisions for Cas.  Maybe if Cas had come to him sooner and he didn't do anything you'd  have a point but with Cas handling things the way he did, it removed the responsibility from Dean.  Dean may be thinking "what if" as far as Cas is concerned, but he had nothing to do with the bad choices Cas made.

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  142. Dahne15 October 2011 at 15:06

    I would be shocked also if nothing else comes from Sam's wall breaking.  They set it up as such a huge issue that dealing with it by rubbing his palm seems way too easy.  My guess is that everything will fall apart right when the Leviathans step up the chase.  It will take Bobby out of the picture, Sam's Lucifer hellucinations will go into overdrive, and Dean will be drunk half the time.  In other words, another gloomy hellatus before we get any rays of sunshine.

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  143. Dahne15 October 2011 at 15:09

    I think they choose Jo and Sam precisely because the audience, Sam, and Jo could see that Dean had absolutely no fault in those.  It was specifically chosen to flesh out Dean's internalization of all things bad in their lives.  Similar to Are You There God?  It's Me, Dean Winchester.  The ghosts that haunted all of them were touching but hardly their fault.

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  144. Dahne15 October 2011 at 15:13

    Ha!  We are a chatty group.  I love how things have remained pleasant as well.  usually when there is this many comments it means a fight broke out somewhere and people are now flame warring each other.  I loved both Sam and Jo in this one too.  It was good to see Sam get to use his brain to fix something instead of only physically and not just with research either.  I like Smart Sam.  I had a problem with Osiris though in that he specifically targeted people who had already paid for their guilt and were doing great things because of it.  It would seem more fitting if he put people on trial who weren't making things better.  It is an affront to my sense of justice that he took out the animal guy who was doing his best to take care of animals now.

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  145. Michele Klinger15 October 2011 at 15:18

    This episode was awesome. It wasn't as plot intense/action packed as the others this season, but I still loved it. I love that they brought Jo as a witness and Lawyer Sammy! 

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  146. Dahne15 October 2011 at 15:19

    I agree with your objections.  The trial was written exceedingly poorly.  I know that Sam is not a lawyer, but he does talk for a living and he is used to blending into a situation.  This made Sam seem bumbling and that is rarely a word I would use to describe Sam.  But my biggest agreement is this: "but also because I'm not really interested talking about Amy five episodes from now."  I want the Amy story line over and dealt with immediately.  There is too much goodness for this subplot and quite frankly it makes me think that the writers  don't understand character growth or what it means to forge a better brother bond because neither are going to happen until we get past Amy.  

    The only thing I disagree with is that I think the Leviathans can bring the tension and the fun.  I certainly hope they do because we are going to need the laughter and smiles.

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  147. SammyWsGirl15 October 2011 at 15:38

    Episode 2? Hello, Cruel World? He yelled at Sam for keeping his hallucinations to himself. Bobby told him to take it easy on Sam, but Dean flipped out anyway. I can understand why Sam doesn't want to talk to Dean if that's how Dean's going to treat him. And even now, Sam knows that Dean has issues or whatever, Sam isn't going to talk to him because he doesn't want to pile even more crap on his brother. It was the same stuff that happened in the first place. Unless of course this is just the writer's way of glossing over Sam's story yet again.

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  148. keithfan15 October 2011 at 15:44

    Loved every second of it! The flashbacks to prior episodes with Jo and Dean dealing with his never-ending (sounds familiar) and the scene at the very end with the boys and the Impala. Just like old times! Did you catch it at the beginning when Sam pressed his hand? I think he is still having problems with Luci, even though at the end he told Dean that he was good. I believe that he is indeed handling things better than at the beginning of the season (and we have only just started), but I don't think for a minute that he is good. Who was the next witness going to be? I agree, it could have been Amy, but Dean said that it could be anyone and I think that is true. But, I think it is the people that he has loved before, so it could have been Ben and Lisa, but they are not dead. So, it would have to be someone from his past that is dead. Of course, we know that Sam saved him, so we will probably never know. I wonder if Dean will ever tell Sam about killing Amy?? Awesome episode!

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  149. KatHale15 October 2011 at 15:58

    I don't know..I'm kind of worried about the Leviathans.I surely hope that they can balance the drama that's sure to come with fun,cause as you said,we're gonna need it.
    The writers have endless possibilities with the Leviathans,that's for sure.
    My worries about lack of fun are partly based on the popular theory that Cas will be the boss.And if that's the case,there'll be heartbreak all over the place.But from what we've heard that won't happen at lest until the winter break.
    Generally,I hope you're right!

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  150. SN_gal15 October 2011 at 15:59

     But can't that argument be applied to Jo as well.  She acted on her own and Dean tried to talk her out of it, telling her that hunting lifestyle was not what she believed it was.  If Sam and Dean had gotten into the car and drove away Jo would have gone on that first hunt and have been killed on her first one. She made her own decisions just as much as Cas did.

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  151. Debbie Combs15 October 2011 at 16:04

    It wouldn't matter, he wouldn't be able to be called as a witness because Castiel had no soul to be a witness. You can't be a ghost without a soul. It is also possible that he isn't dead. He might have have been "available" to Osiris.

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  152. SN_gal15 October 2011 at 16:21

     Maybe because every time Dean asks Sam always says he's fine.  It's not on Dean to beg Sam to open up to him. 

    In MTNB, Dean asked Sam how he was.  Sam lied and Dean confronted him after Death outed him, he didn't yell and make Sam feel bad.  Maybe if Sam wants Dean to be honest with him, he also needs to extend Dean that same courtesy.  Sam left in the middle of the night and didn't answer the phone.  Didn't Sam think for one moment that Dean wouldn't worry Dean even more than he already was. 

    Dean doesn't believe Sam is fine.  He clearly indicated he knows the other shoe will drop and he's waiting for it.   If Sam won't admit he's not fine, Dean can't make him. 

    Plus, you could say the same about Jo.  She choose everyone one of actions of her own free will.  No Exit showed us that.  Jo would have hunted (and been killed on her first hunt) if Dean hadn't been there, so why would he feel guilty about Jo starting hunting?

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  153. SuePo15 October 2011 at 16:23

    You are the master of subterfuge. :) I bow to your eloquence.

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  154. Debbie Combs15 October 2011 at 16:29

    I hardly ever rewatch that episode (I cry too much), but didn't Jo sacrifice herself for Dean. The Hell Hounds were coming for Dean and she started shooting them to let Dean get away. Then, she got attacked. I would say there was guilt right there. He "let" her come and she was fatally injured saving him. He shouldn't feel guilt for it, but it is natural for Dean to take that guilt on himself.

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  155. Debbie Combs15 October 2011 at 16:34

    As far as the Rabi goes, it is just another thing that the show allows to be "handled" off screen. I would have loved just 20 seconds of Sam at least saying "sorry I need this to save a friend". That guy was tiny, with no weapons. Even that much of a speech would have been an attempt to show us the solution... Why show the Rabi at all (or Sam breaking into the temple)?

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  156. Debbie Combs15 October 2011 at 16:41

    I like the fact that Sam doesn't feel guilty, but I hate the fact that we didn't see it happen. I am getting tired of things happening off screen... Maybe remembering Hell has let him say "I have paid enough for my sins", but we didn't see it. This is the first episode we have seen a hint of it and the transformation is complete... in a blink.

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  157. Wilson Crawford15 October 2011 at 16:48

    Well, you better get your butt back in gear. It's just so... GOOD. :D

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  158. ShatteredOne15 October 2011 at 17:47

    Just ok, not as good as I was expecting but in comparison to last week's poor episode it was a step up.  Hopefully these 2 episodes are missteps and it'll get back on track with how awesome the first 2 episodes were.

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  159. Debbie Combs15 October 2011 at 17:54

    Castiel couldn't testify. He doesn't have a soul for Osiris to bring back to testify. Everybody except Sam that testified was a ghost. My guess is the only reason that Sam testified was that he was there.

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  160. Supernatural_Loving_Fan86715 October 2011 at 18:13

    I see where you and many others are coming from, but I still think Dean was more sad than guilty. Dean tried to get his friend back, but it was too late.

    Let's say. however, that Dean did feel guilt over Cas, that doesn't mean he would have ended up in the court room. Cas may have been the third witness, no one knows. Dean just feared it was Amy. Or, as another user stated, Cas has no soul, so maybe he couldn't be called by
    Osiris, or Cas may still be alive.

    In the end though, I still think Dean shouldn't have felt any guilt for Cas. Cas is the one who opened the door to Purgatory and took in everything. Cas is the one who ended up killing himself. Sam, Dean, and Bobby tried to help but it was just too late. They did all they could.

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  161. chris68415 October 2011 at 18:15

    Hi Rochey. I enjoyed reading your recap more than I enjoyed watching the show. Agree about Sam's hair.

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  162. SammyWsGirl15 October 2011 at 18:22

    Did you ever stop and think why Sam always says he's fine? The last time Sam tried to talk to Dean about how he was feeling (Sam, Interrupted) Dean basically told Sam to shut up and bury it.

    Hmmm, no, Sam didn't lie because when Sam first woke up, he was fine until he heard the chains rattling and wasn't sure what it was. Then, when he had that nightmare, he was going to run out to Dean and tell him right away, until he overheard Dean and Bobby talking about him yet AGAIN behind his back. The only thing that happened was Bobby asked Sam "How you feelin' sport?" and Sam said "Can't complain." He didn't lie. He kept it to himself and he did it for Dean's sake because he knows how much shit Dean's dealing with.

    Yes, she did. I never once said that Dean should feel guilty about Jo. In fact, I don't want him to, because he shouldn't, so why are you even bothering bringing that up to me? Talk to the writers if it's such an issue for you.

    No, I'm not contradicting myself. I think Dean needs to stop yelling at Sam whenever Sam actually does open up, but do I want Dean to press him? No. I want to Dean to acknowledge it and actually appear like he's concerned about Sam, not biting his head off for it because if he thinks that method is actually going to work, then he's thinking wrong. Yeah, he did it in HCW and he came off about it all wrong. You don't sit there and scream at somebody who's struggling or expressing their troubles. Even Bobby told Dean to take it easy on Sam.

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  163. SammyWsGirl15 October 2011 at 18:27

    For one, the god wasn't pagan. It was Egyptian. For two, Sam didn't gank it. He put it away for a couple of centuries, so while it's only a temporary thing, Osiris is no longer a problem but he will come back, just most likely not on this show.

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  164. SammyWsGirl15 October 2011 at 18:35

    He was only pre-law. Talking for a living and actually being a lawyer and put on the spot like that knowing that your brother is lined up for death row on top of having no real law knowledge considering he was only pre-law, how can you expect him to just be perfect and know what he's doing or that he's handling the trial properly. He did what he could on what little knowledge he had. He wasn't going to be some perfect lawyer, but it was clear he was scared for Dean, uncomfortable about being put on the spot but at the same time trying to do what he could to keep his brother from dying. Not only that, but it's not like Sam's actually ever been put on trial or even had a mock trial because he's never actually been IN law school. To call him bumbling is unfair.

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  165. D Mentis15 October 2011 at 18:38

    Really enjoying the new season!

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  166. percysowner15 October 2011 at 19:55

    As glad as I am to see that Sam is in control of himself I feel a little cheated.  In season four we had Sam started drinking demon blood sometime in the past.  We aren't going to show you how or why he got started.  We aren't going to explore his addiction.  We are just going to tell you he is an addict and move the story right along.

    Now we have Sam got over his guilt sometime in the past.  We aren't going to show you how.  We aren't going to let you see his struggles.  He's fine, barring a few hallucinations.  We are telling you he is fine and now we are going to just move the story along.

    Dean's guilt has needed to be explored for years and I know that the show can't have the brothers broken at the same time.  I just wish that Sam's coming to terms with himself hadn't happened off screen.  I hope they at least show him stepping up to help Dean with Dean's issues.

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  167. frank15 October 2011 at 21:08

    But Castiel wanted Dean to stand down so he wouldn't have rescued Lisa and Ben.

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  168. AGM15 October 2011 at 21:10

    You seem to be a voice of reason in all this debate! I really appreciate what you had to say here!

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  169. Bruce_F15 October 2011 at 21:15

    "And why the hell has Sam not talked to his brother about this?!"

    Sam has JUST got his debilitating hallucinations under control.  You know, the ones that prevented him from distinguishing what was real from what was fake.  When during that time was he supposed to be keeping track of other people's issues?

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  170. AGM15 October 2011 at 21:17

    I just want to thank you for being a voice of reason in the community. I can't stand the arguing and you always seem to have something wise to say when it starts up. I, too, wish that fans could just respect each other and the characters. It's draining when they don't.

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  171. Bruce_F15 October 2011 at 21:17

    I can't say that I really liked this episode.

     - An Egyptian god annoying people in a Detroit suburb?  No.  Just no.
     - Dean's drinking is starting to seem like a real problem now.
     - Seeing Jo was nice.
     - It's good to see Sam is getting himself under control.
     - I'm disappointed that the Amy situation didn't come to a head.  I'm sure it will eventually and the longer it festers the worse it's going to be for everyone.
     - I did appreciate Supernatural dropping the Leviathan storyline for an episode.

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  172. jillyanne15 October 2011 at 21:20

    Been thinking about how easily gods are overcome in Winchesterland. 
    One of the complaints they all seem to have is that not many people believe in them any more - I'm thinking about Leshii, the Hammer of the Gods gods, the Carrigans (AVSC), even the Judeo-Christian god - maybe the less people believe in them/worship them the easier they are to destroy/overcome. Kinda like uber-tulpas. :)  Just an idea. Also, if they were all too powerful and difficult to get rid of we'd be complaining about them clogging up the mytharc of the season.

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  173. jillyanne15 October 2011 at 21:34

    "I always saw Dean as knowing that Jo had a crush on him, but seeing her as kinda like a kid sister". That's exactly how I saw it too Rochey. I loved that scene with Jo & Dean - broke my already shattered heart.
    LOL "slaphead"

    But shame on you for wanting Sammy's hair cut. I love Sammy's hair. 
    But I still love you <3

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  174. chris68415 October 2011 at 21:38

    When they introduced the idea that heaven and hell get their power from souls, I figured that this may apply to other religions as well. The figures from forgotten religions just don't have much power anymore because they don't have any new souls.

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  175. Kat15 October 2011 at 23:10

    It was an ok episode. Dean needs to take baby steps to overcome the guilty he bears and his heavy heart...I think it might have been the first baby step. Let's rephrase that I HOPE it was the first baby step and the next few are full on runs to the finish line. I want no secrets between the brothers, they can have an opportunity for as clean a slate as Winchesters get.

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  176. MeatyStakes15 October 2011 at 23:49

    I fail to see the point of getting into a semantics discusion so I'll just lift this phrase from wikipedia to show what I meant.

    Pagan: The widest definition of the term uses it to refer to all religions that are not in the Abrahamic category.

    So that is.

    Temporary ganking is still ganking, and we can't be sure if the gods from hammer are truly really dead, we can get speculative about it, but what would we gain from it? Either way, even if Osiris vanishment is temporary, his avatar can still be destroyed rather easily with brute force, just like anything else in this show.

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  177. Mrs. Dean Winchester16 October 2011 at 00:56

    I loved it so much! Think it was a much better episode than last weeks'!
    It was soooo good to see Jo again! And so sad :'(
    And the look on Dean's face when he was being blamed for all the things that happened to Sam and Jo.. his EYES! It was heartbreaking to look how guilty he felt D:
    I adored this episode!

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  178. loly.16 October 2011 at 00:58

    i loved Sam as a Lawyer his so cute hhhhhhhhhhhhhdean Awesome i lovrd the all ep 

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  179. Supernatural_Loving_Fan86716 October 2011 at 01:51

    In my eyes, that wasn't Dean yelling at Sam because he was having hallucinations. He yelled at Sam because that was a big problem, and Sam didn't tell Dean about it. Dean was worried. Then Sam calmly told him why he didn't tell him, and Dean understood and asked him to sit down for a beer. That little exchange was more Dean worried for Sam and mad that he didn't tell him sooner. He never yelled at Sam about his Hell and made him feel bad like you put it.

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  180. expensieve16 October 2011 at 02:29

    That's why I think he wasn't called up (the soul thing, not the being dead thing, that is), but it still irked me that we get all these little flashbacks of Dean's worst moments as he recalls them and not even one blip of Castiel shows up. Not even the "blah blah Raphael" moment. P:

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  181. expensieve16 October 2011 at 02:35

    I also voted poor; I thought it dragged in too many places and Osiris was too easy to beat. And Sam didn't seem like he knew the first thing about law. o.O But then I was surprised the writers had Bobby explain Osiris at all, instead of Sam being like, "Wait, you're saying the sign is for Osiris? As in the Egyptian god of death?" 

    He's not exactly a fringe pagan god, I don't think. I get that the background info is for viewers who might not know, but I would think Sam would know him even offhand since he is a pretty big deal in the ancient Egyptian afterlife.

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  182. expensieve16 October 2011 at 02:40

    It would've been interesting if we got to see the 'weeping b*tch' that was Dean's first in Hell. But logistically, I agree, it's much too hard to bring in new characters and address the Dean's Hell issue when they can use Jo.

    Although, I like the contrast between Sam and Dean's hell. Sam feels like he atoned for his sins because of his torture, whereas Dean tortured/sinned in Hell and came out even more guilt-ridden.

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  183. expensieve16 October 2011 at 02:48

    That's as good as any explanation I'm going to hear. ;) I do think this helped resolve some issues left over from Jo's death. Although I am curious that Osiris could recall her to Earth in the first place - I'm *assuming* she went to Heaven, even if we weren't explicitly told. It's interesting to say the least.

    And agreed that Dean does blame himself for not keeping Sam out of the hunting life - though when Sam asked him whether it would've happened either way I couldn't help saying to the screen (and my mom), "C'mon, that's too easy! Sam was surrounded by Azazel's flunkies. It was all because of the demon blood and Azazel's plans, Brady said so himself!" Took five seconds too long to come up with a definite answer, imo, lol.

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  184. expensieve16 October 2011 at 03:06

    I luv ya, Wilson. Someone, can't remember who, wrote that Dean is the moral compass for the show. And I can't really think of a time when he was overtly wrong, so your notation that his judgment is "practically prophetic" is on the nose for me!

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  185. SammyWsGirl16 October 2011 at 03:17

    Uhhh, no. I didn't put it like that. Maybe if you remove your Dean, rose-tinted glasses you may have actually seen that. Dean was yelling at Sam for keeping the hallucinations from him and what you said were not my words. Regardless of the fact, Dean still yelled at him and even if he's pissed at Sam for keeping his hallucinations to himself, it still doesn't make it right. If my big brother had yelled at me, I wouldn't want to tell him my problems either because I'd be worried that every single time I told him something was going on with me, he'd yell at me. And actually, yeah, Dean's yelling does make Sam feel bad because you can see it written all over his face.

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  186. SammyWsGirl16 October 2011 at 03:21

    Sam was PRE-law. PRE. He hadn't even began law school. He was set up for the interview to get into law school but Sam never attended, so please tell me how exactly Sam is going to really know anything about law and how can you expect him to know when he's never actually BEEN to law school?

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  187. Supernatural_Loving_Fan86716 October 2011 at 04:21

    My comment wasn't attacking you in any way, but yours seems to be attacking me. Don't assume that I love Dean more than Sam just because I defended Dean this time. I love Sam and Dean equally for sure. So maybe you should take off your "Sam, rose-tinted glasses" before you answer.

    "Why hasn't he bothered talking to Sam about Sam's Hell without actually yelling at him for it and making him feel bad over it?"

    Those were your words. I interpreted that as you saying that Dean was yelling at Sam instead of talking about his Hell and was making him feel bad, so I answered accordingly. I understand Sam, as I am the youngest in my family, but I also understand Dean. Dean wasn't trying to hurt Sam, he was just angry that Sam hadn't  told him of the hallucinations earlier. Dean was worried, Dean wanting Sam to feel bad doesn't make sense to me. You seemed to be attacking Dean in your comment, so I simply wanted to defend him as even though I understood Sam, I also understood Dean.

    Anyways, what would you have wanted Dean to say?
    "Hey Sam, you hid the fact that you were have hallucinations from me. Please don't do it again." That's completely out of character and actually shows Dean as a bit uncaring. The fact that he was angry with Sam for hiding something like that was because he cares about Sam, and wants to help. To not be angry about Sam hiding his hallucinations is completely out of character and suggests that Dean doesn't care much in a way. After that little scene, Dean asked if Sam was OK many times, he's trying to help.



     

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  188. SuePo16 October 2011 at 06:11

    Thanks! Always nice to know there are some people out there who are watching the same show I am. :)

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  189. SuePo16 October 2011 at 06:26

    Yeah, I remember Dean asking Sam if he wanted to talk about Hell all the way back to season 6 (even when he was soulless) but Sam has never wanted to share. And really, who can blame him? Dean wasn't all that eager to share at first either. Even now, Dean is constantly asking him how he's doing with the hallucinations and stuff, and all Sam says is he's managing it. What's Dean supposed to do? Handcuff him to the chair and get out the cattle prod? He's going to keep tabs on Sam since Sam himself admitted he has a hard time distinguishing real from hallucination. Dean even chased after him and gave him a way (from his own experience) to differentiate between real pain and what's in his head. And Sam is using it. Wjhat he;s going to do when that hand finally heals, I don;t know. :) Dean's broken leg healed in less time. Maybe Sam needs to eat more vegetables?

    Dean eventually spilled his guts about what happened to him in Hell, but until Sam is willing to talk, nobody can force him. All Dean can do is keep an eye on him just in case he goes postal with a loaded weapon again or has an episode he needs someone to talk him down from the ledge again. So yeah, I'd say your 'Dean-tinted glasses' are seeing pretty accurately. :)

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  190. SuePo16 October 2011 at 06:28

    And you can still manage to post. You. Are. Amazing. :)

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  191. Supernatural_Loving_Fan86716 October 2011 at 06:42

    This is exactly how I see it as well. Dean is doing all he can for now. Your comment completely grasps what I think. Thank you :)

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  192. expensieve16 October 2011 at 07:00

    Just because you are PRE-law doesn't mean you don't take law classes BEFORE attending law school; it's encouraged to take some law classes before, and demonstrates a marked interest in whatever field of law you choose to pursue. It isn't required, obviously, as not all institutions offer the proper courses, but I would think Stanford has a good curriculum in that regard considering it's reputation and it's place among the top feeder schools for graduate law programs. You know, considering it also has a top law school.

    And since Sam was able to attend a fantastic school, in spite of his upbringing, scored super super high on his LSAT and was therefore able to get interviews to law schools, I don't think it can be said he is stupid or lazy in any way at all. With his voracious appetite for books, patience and desire to work good in the world (I would think he would lean toward becoming criminal justice or becoming a civil rights attorney or something like that, defending the helpless and the outcasts), he wouldn't lack for motivation or capability. It isn't unreasonable to assumed he would take one or two law classes to see whether that path was something he truly wanted to do, especially if you take into consideration the cost of law school into account. I mean, talk about a commitment! I'm not sure what sort of financial aid package he would be offered, but I find it hard to believe he wouldn't incur some large amount of debt had he decided to attend.

    Granted, I doubt that any classes Sam theoretically would've attended would cover actual court procedures in detail, but he would know law precedents at least. Or, even allowing ignorance in that regard, wouldn't be made to seem completely ignorant by relying on The Good Wife. Although, I'll let that one slide, as it *was* meant to be funny, and I did laugh. :>

    If anything, I would've preferred if they had made a stronger point that Osiris' "court" was a complete mockery and totally unlike our justice system. That way, Sam's reliance on his own ingenuity/manipulation would be more creditable when he found the traditional methods unsuccessful. I just didn't understand why they made Sam flounder instead of trying one proper way that he knows should have worked, and then having it shot down. I know I'm nitpicking, but I thought it a disservice to Sam to not give him a throwaway line where he has a surefire objection, and not one made desperately inspired by a TV show or ethics classes ("it's not fair!" ?).

    Then, as it was in the show, when he switches tracks and attempts to beat Osiris at his own game, it's just indicates more clearly that, though he may be out of his depth once the rules are thrown out, he can quickly readjust to save his brother.

    All that said, I can concede that after several years hunting, Sam would probably have long forgotten any pertinent details for more important and immediate ones. But that wasn't your argument, and I feel this pre-law means complete-law-ignorance argument isn't particularly strong on its own. ...So yeah, that's definitely what I took issue with, coupled with your aggressive response to my simple opinion. So there is my reasoning behind it.

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  193. expensieve16 October 2011 at 07:20

    Agree with all this! Given the username though, is it surprising that any arguments would be reduced to the simple dichotomy of Dean and Sam girls? Please, we can have it both ways, as this show doesn't like to paint everything in black and white.

    That said, I think Sam was, in a misguided way, clearly most influenced by his urge to protect Dean. I mean, he basically repeated Dean's 'not one more thing on top the crap pile' argument (from the overheard conversation between Dean and Bobby) when Dean asked him why he hadn't told him about his hallucinations.

    That is in line with how Sam is, and Dean is the same way. Both react negatively to each other's pain because they care about each other, and *want to help*. It's frustrating, and terrifying, and given all that they usually have to deal with, I'm not surprised emotions are running high when secrets are kept. 

    I think Sam and Dean both understand the need to compartmentalize, as well as the damage that does and how impossible it can be sometimes.  Now, you can argue that Dean doesn't have the best reaction here, but it's not from a desire to hurt Sam. 

    I think their history together and attempts to rebuilt burnt bridges should discredit that theory right off the bat. I find it strange that people feel the need to pick teams between the brothers - it's a disgusting and ignorant notion that flies in the face of everything this show is supposed to be about. 

    Additionally, this is supposed to be a place where flame wars don't exist, so the attempt reduce the debate by injecting the infantile "Dean, rose-tinted glasses" is a ridiculously oversensitive and close-minded reaction to me.

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  194. prpleight16 October 2011 at 07:31

    But I thought Sam *did* get it.  Of course Osiris had to spell it out for him.  But Sam's entire cross examination of Dean played, for me, that Sam was talking to Dean trying to convince *Dean* that he shouldn't feel guilty for Jo or him. 

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  195. expensieve16 October 2011 at 07:35

    I watch Psych (great show!), but I didn't notice that. They both shoot in Vancouver, so it's possible! Supernatural "Playthings" was shot at the Tulk House. I'm assuming the pool is connected, but not sure.... Hang on, I just looked up some spn caps and checking the psych footage.... and YES!!! =o The design on the railing and double doors is the same, the tiles around the pool perimeter, only the pool cover and the placement of plants are different. xD

    Good eyes and better memory! The lighting/coloring seems different for the tiles and rails, but that can be explained by the time of day. Cool find!

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  196. expensieve16 October 2011 at 07:44

    Well said, all of it. I'll admit while I'd like Dean to feel some measure of guilt for not hearing Castiel out at all, there wasn't much he could do, and that absolves him of pretty much all of the fallout. I don't think he handled the argument with Cas logically and the best way he could, but when feelings overwhelm you, sound judgment and a level head (esp the last part for Dean) is pretty out the window.

    And since Castiel isn't Sam, Bobby or even Jo, he doesn't *really* fall under the same protective feeling Dean feels for others, simply because he was an angel capable of defending himself and more often than not defended Dean/Sam.

    Though, I'm still not a fan of where all these plot-lines are headed, and my own personal feelings note the episode's shortcomings as further evidence of this mishandling. I still do feel as if they are juggling quite a bit nowadays, between Dean and Sam and the Leviathans. 

    All personal opinion, though. I've been wrong before when it comes to the SPN writers, and it would be ridiculous and boring for viewers and writers alike if everything could be so easily resolved.

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  197. expensieve16 October 2011 at 07:54

    Glad I'm not the only one who thought the writing was sub-par! I'm not asking for Sorkin dialogue here, just give me something to look forward to next week. There are only so many disappointing episodes in a row that I can watch before I give up.

    And now that I've read your recommendation, TGW will be bumped up my "to-watch" list. Right after I force myself through Big Bang Theory (the things I do to get my friend's in-jokes)!

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  198. expensieve16 October 2011 at 08:02

    Oh sweet jesus, Dahne, that's pretty grim there. O__O If they leave us with that, I... I won't even know what to do. Probably eat cartons and cartons of ice cream, slip into a food coma, and arise to join the SPN fandom again? 

    I'm not sure, but Rochey has some good points, especially about Sam's desire for control/power over his life, one of his main drives for all his actions in the past. And the writers do like to give us a sense of false confidence, pretty much all the time. Still, I can't even imagine what all that happening together might do to all involved (including myself). I mean, it's way too much. The end of episode 2 was awful enough!

    Gotta say though, I love how everyone is all agreed that John Winchester did a poor job raising his kids. They have so many complexes it's ridiculous. And where normal people would have completely cracked, they just take it as another hit, another responsibility to shoulder. :(

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  199. lostrocks4ever16 October 2011 at 11:27

    loved it, as usual
    i preferred this one to last weeks although i still don't think it compared to the first two of this season
    sammy as a lawyer was great, he would have made a great lawyer.
    i liked the whole guilt theme. its been such a big thing thats been hanging over our shoulders on this show for soooo long now, it really felt good to see dean finally start to get some stuff off his chest. maybe hopefully now we can move past all the crappy stuff thats happened to them these last few years and get back down into some brutal monster hunting like the old days.
    egyptian god was cool. i liked how he set out his court room with those big statues. they kinda reminded me of the four toed statue from lost

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  200. lostrocks4ever16 October 2011 at 11:34

    thats a good theory. the fact that so few (if any) people still follow these old religions, the gods begin to lose their power.
    i liked with this one though that the rams horn didn't kill him, it just stopped him for a few centuries. "leave that to some hunter in a spacesuit to deal with" (if i remember correctly)

    i sure this rams horn thing was done on purpose because when sam said the jews blow it once a year i laughed because, (me being a jew myself), we're in that time of year right now so that was some nice planning on their behalf.

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