While I've certainly stirred up a bee's nest, I'd like to ask that everyone simmer a bit, and let's discuss the emerging consequences of what has happened in the last episode, plotwise for Sam & Dean. (And please remember, this is an opinion)
SAM: It became apparent that Sam has actually lost his ability to feel, and is trying to hide this by acting angsty or snarky, or happy in all the right situations, except he's not fooling anyone--meaning Dean's not buying it. Dean is practically bent on killing Sam in his sleep because of his strange behavior, it's almost as if just coming clean about not being able to feel would be a better alternative to putting on that mask of faked care. Through the episode we see more strange behavior (is he getting off on making that woman cry? I really didn't get that part...) and it just makes him even more suspicious throughout the whole episode. At one point, when Dean is cursed by Veritas, Sam is confronted and asked a hard question. Then, somehow he is able to lie and claims he was in shock and was just not fast enough. However, later, he lies to Veritas herself, and she calls him out. The look on Dean's face was more than just foreboding. Sam shakes it off, kills Veritas, and attempts to explain to Dean what's "Wrong" with him, but Dean's seemingly had it. Sam goes into an explanation that seems so contrived and way too emotional for an emotionless person to produce. (After that scene with Dean in the hallway where he claims he'd always have Dean's back in a brotherly smile, he just peels the smile away into a cold glare as he walks away--how can we trust that again?) I was repulsed by his attempts to act emotional as the scene winded down, (breathing heavily? really obvious faked facial expression!? C'mon Sam!) he just didn't get it that him acting that way was the exact reason Dean was worried about him in the first place.
DEAN: Dean was a wreck this whole episode. He has had enough with this...whatever he thought Sam was (or wasn't) and he was this close to just putting him in the ground. For all he knew, Sammy was gone and had been gone for a year, and this thing was parading around as him somehow. Throughout the whole episode he would drink and speak threateningly about what he'd do to "Sam" and how he just wanted the truth. The whole episode was a singular device to show where exactly the two brothers stood in their respective storylines: Sam was heartless and realized it, but didn't realize what that could mean to Dean, and Dean was so messed up about so many things he was literally about to lose control and hurt someone--badly. Dean harbored this one sole hope that Sam was still himself and all this was some sort of post-hell stress disorder, and so when he was cursed by Veritas, he used it to ask Sam why Sam let the vamp turn him. Then, he took Sam's story of "freezing" as the truth, because supposedly Sam couldn't lie, and it would confirm the other hypothesis Dean had about Sam: that Sam had just become what Dean was--and that was emotionally screwed up. He figured it was Sam's mechanism for coping, just like alcohol, hunting, and burying emotions was Dean's collective mechanism for all the crap they'd been through over the years. Then, Sam lied to Veritas, and Dean's whole world seemed to crash around him as he realized that Sam would just refuse to speak the truth. I think at that point Dean was ready to break his anger upon Sam, but I don't think it would've been nearly as bad as it was since Sam tried to keep up his "emotional" charade that was 100% transparent and only dug him further into a hole. Dean's rage just released all at once--no thought, or intention--and he knocked the fool out of Sam.
OVERALL: It seemed that by the end of this episode we see just how far the relationship has fallen, mostly because of circumstances that might've been avoided if one of the brothers wasn't so emotionally-detached and the other wasn't so emotionally-charged. Not necessarily a one-sided issue, as Sam showed a heinous, cold side, and Dean completely lost his self control and beat Sam to a bloody pulp. Did either of them deserve it? I think in a way they both deserve it, but honestly I don't want either of them to have to go through something this tragic. Somehow this is even more emotionally investing to me than the vessel prophecy last season, cause then it wasn't Sam and Dean waging war, it was their possessors, but this time, it's a whole new level of drama, and I honestly hope that after this, the brothers will unify stronger than ever, and never have to be taken down to this level again.
Sorry, Sam. Sorry, Dean.........Sorry, Mittens.
You know that hate stuff gets old and boring!! Saint-Dean is on again and Evil-Sam is the bad bad boy........wah wah wah!!" stuff how you call it. Been there, done that and reviews like yours....nothing new so join the queue! I for one refuse to hate on Sam....although it seems that the writers do everything that people do exactly what you did........weak!
ReplyDeleteI'm agree with you! but i think sam have never said the truth on this chapter! i really don´t believed a word he sais:S
ReplyDeleteand i have been thinking since the beginning of the season that dean should punch sam, so good for dean!
sorry, bad english :S
I can't understand how anyone can justify that level of violence as an acceptable response. What could anyone do to justify that kind of punishment? Watching what we saw in YCHTT and white washing it with some kind of excuse just because you like the person is no different than the parent of the bully who ignores the behavior with the excuse "they're just being kids." or "that's just how they are". It's wrong to do and it's wrong to excuse it.
ReplyDeleteWhat happened to doing the right thing? Taking the high road? Acting with integrity? Revenge - that's what it is when you deliberately do something bad to someone who has done something wrong to you - is that the right thing now? I guess we can find a way to justify violence against anyone we want, because you know - you're having a bad day and they deserve it.
Lisa was right to get rid of Dean. With that kind of out of control temper he shouldn't be anywhere near a kid.
ReplyDeleteI agree - the hate stuff really is getting old.
I just want the brothers back together...
Well tell us how YOU really feel won't you Wilson ;)
ReplyDeleteYou do have a point. Sam could/should have said something before now. It's not like Dean hasn't asked him about it either, or seen for himself that something was wrong. Keeping up the pretence even after Dean called him on the vampire thing really sucked.
My main feeling at the end of the episode was relief - the truth is out - there really is something very wrong with Sam. So now the whole season can begin to move forward. So - great from that perspective.
And Dean probably went a bit far at the end, but I can see why. On top of the stuff about Sam coming out, he's now lost Lisa and Ben due to Sam's betrayal, plus all the old stuff (Ruby etc) - looked to me like it all just boiled over in those few seconds.
I'm really looking forward to the rest of the season, although I'm annoyed about that promo - Sam's lack of a soul, (while we were probably heading in that direction anyway) - shouldn't be revealed in a promo for pete's sake!
I'm going to start with this: I'm a Sam Girl. I've always been, since I watched Supernatural for the 1st time and seeing Sam acting like that scares me a lot. I've never been so scared since I saw him drinking blood from Ruby on "On the head of a pin".
ReplyDeleteAnd, I need to admit, you're right! About everything you said about Sam. And he almost caught me! When he started acting all emotional I stopped and looked at him like... " My baby needs help" but, reading your post opened my eyes! If he isn't feeling anything, how he had emotions in the end? He should had turned his back to Dean and didn't give a fuck!
Well, when he left Dean there and to be turned, I cursed Sam a lot. I started wanting him to be beaten. I knew it would happen soon. He deserved it!
Dean did go too far. But both of them needed that. They need to reach the bottom before going up again.
Love!!!
(I'm sorry for my poor grammar!)
Well, I asked for your opinion and you gave it...I don't expect everyone to agree with me...
ReplyDeleteAnd I don't believe Dean is "Saint!Dean" as you put it, but he also didn't flat out lie to Sam's face repeatedly. I will go to say that it would be refreshing for once to see Dean as the mysteriously vacant or different brother antagonist, but I like this storyline. And plus, Dean shoved Ben, and he's been a bull in a china shop in general, so I think he's still got his own issues to be sorted out in this arc as well: Veritas said it herself about him burying everything and freaking out, and the venting he did via Sam's face at the end of the episode brought that into the light as well. This "I refuse to hate on Sam" thing is ridiculous to me, however. Bitch all you want about what the writers are doing, but either watch it or don't, that is still what is happening. I don't know if you are a "Sam girl" (I don't go there usually in these arguments because that's dangerous territory) but hating on the writers who drew up the character in the first place for putting him through a story arc is just weird to me. It's something to get through--even if you don't like it. And in the end YOU KNOW that Sam will be brought back to the light--just like last season when after Dean is about to make the idiot decision to say yes, even with the circumstances pending, Sam decided not to keep him away from making his own choice, which was something that highlighted a huge flaw in Dean while showing how Sam was still Sam, even after everything that had happened.. I think that Sam, even soulless, can still be Sam: just quit trying to put up pretenses, and deal with the soulless situation. He obviously is trying his best, but he's going about it all the wrong ways.
I thought that while Sam did deserve that first punch in the face, Dean went way overboard afterwards. I mean, after the first punch I was like 'Hell yeah, good to see some of that frustration and fear and *anger* get out', you know, moving on the way to healing etc, etc, but by punch number 4 I was going 'Erm...going a little overboard' and by punch number 'I lost count' I was madder with Dean than with Sam. Yeah, Sam shouldn't have lied to him, and was possibly (probably, in all fairness) playing on his emotions at the end of the episode, because with soulless Sam, every move seems to be calculated, which begs two questions: 1) if he is such a fantastic hunter now, with the reflexes, no emotion, etc, why didn't he defend himself against Dean. Like at all? I know some people will say he didn't have a chance, rage-fueled Dean was too fast, but that's not true. There was a pause between the first punch and all the ones that came after, and if Sam was truly emotionless, he wouldn't have cared that it was Dean, he would have defended himself ruthlessly. Which means that the decision not to defend himself was a rational one, which I believe (though I may be going a bit too optimistic) was because Sam does recognize how far he's fallen, and does want help, and that he also recognized that if he wanted Dean's help, he would have to let Dean get the anger out of his system first, and also, he would have to start *acting* like he needed help, instead of pretending everything's ok. Of course, chances are that once the next episode airs, I'll be proved completely wrong, but yeah, until I've been totally disillusioned I'm sticking to my guns!
ReplyDeleteAnyway, onto the next question that Sam's supposed soulless-ness raises: can someone without a soul be held morally responsible for anything they do? I think probably not, though I would love to hear other people's thoughts on this. Anyway, granted, Dean did not know at the time that Sam was soul-less, but he did know, both through his own observation and by Sam's own admission that there was something seriously wrong with his brother, and yet he still beat him into unconsciousness. I think that while Dean was entitled to a punch or two, continuing to beat the hell out of Sam (especially when he didn't fight back) was morally reprehensible (after all, Dean still has a soul), and it made me think less of him, tbh. I realize that nobody's perfect, but I also think that beating someone unconscious is overkill in nearly all situations.
This has turned into a bit of a rant actually, I'm not quite sure how. I may have to come back and edit it later if I think of something else. Or if I talk myself around to an opposite point of view, which happens with alarming regularity! :D
lol If this were real life I would never encourage what happened. Every time I see a demon vanquished or the opening sequence of the show, I feel a little sheepish, but apparently that is how the show has always uhm..dealt with that kind of situation.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you on the whole 'relief at the end of the episode' thing, I was delighted to see the issues finally getting out into the open so that they can deal with them and move forward! I was terrified it was going to take us almost the whole season to address 'new' Sam's change of attitude, which would have gotten old fairly quick.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with you Wilson. However it came to this because Sam's behavior was not the one of someone who doesn't have a soul. If he really doesn't feel anything, why the stupid smirk when he let Dean got turned, and why that horrible bitchface he had when he got the confession out of the sister's victim ? He doesn't have a soul, yet he does seems to get some kind of enjoyment when people suffer. Doesn't make any sense to me.
ReplyDeleteI think the writers really wanted us to think Sam deserved to get his ass kicked, but they screwed up. They made Sam an arrogant asshole, when really he should just have been an empty shell.
but you encourage that kind of attitude with your support.
ReplyDeleteOMG you guys really unbelievable !! Sam's deceptive, lying, traitor son of a bitch
ReplyDeletewake up guys he lied to Dean all the way long and left him to turn to a vampire !! How could you blame him for that ?! he's human you know .. he's fuckin' deserved it and more
Dean tried other ways of getting his brother back but nothing is working with him!! Don't act like it's the first time, he did that time after time after time and Dean's just had enough of that
consider it as discharge of years of lying, Dean at least deserve that or he will explode
And please don't tell me what ( Sam did was years ago and Dean must forget that and bla bla bla .. ) cause that is just pathetic, if it's two years ago that doesn't mean he must completely forget it
He may forgot what he did two years ago BUT lying AGAIN is too much for him right now and specially after telling the Goddess that he now trusts him !! What did you expect ?!
If it was real life I would want Dean staked for doing that, but in the fictional world of SPN I think it's totally justified. Bullying and violence is a very real problem here in the real world and it should be stopped, but television is totally a different story.
ReplyDeleteDean didn't lose Lisa & Ben because of Sam's betrayal. Dean was foolish & reckless enough to visit them when he had been turned. Yes, Sam let that happen, but Dean's responsible for his behavior after that. He's a hunter, supposedly one of the best, he should have known better. Not to mention that Dean knew better than to take that call from Lisa when he was cursed. HE deserved what he got.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Dean went too far. He could have KILLED Lisa or Ben and Sam knew that...knew that he had a real problem...and still let Dean get turned. Yeah, I say that deserves getting beat unconscious. Dean could have killed him for that (we all know the dude is capable), but he deliberately put down the weapon and then vented his anger/fear/frustration/terror on Sam with a few (lot of) punches.
ReplyDeleteSam deserved that and then some. I'm really dying to see how this all plays out next episode.
Read my edit.
ReplyDeleteAnd get off your high horse, This is fiction with a complicated overarching storyline and a lot of held in, pent up aggression/issues/problems that both of the brothers have, it is not as simple as you are stating.
The kind of beating that Dean gave Sam kills people - and I hope it killed Sam. Seriously. I want Cas to show up and say "hey Dean. You know that brother you wanted back from hell? The one you missed so much? Well you just beat him to death."
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'm hoping that this is like the "Olivia in the other universe" plot on Fringe--something that is scary as in it completely changes a huge part of the formula of the show that will be handled midseason and will build upon the overall season-long story arc.
ReplyDeleteI really don't know exactly why or what, but this season, except for that Bobby-centered episode, is completely weird for me. It doesn't look like Supernatural, it doesn't feel like Supernatural, Sam doesn't look like Sam, Dean doesn't look like Dean at all, what the hell?! I don't even buy this "I don't have a soul, I don't feel anything" B.S. and Dean was so violent I couldn't even take him seriously, especially now that his relationship with Lisa is done and he's crazier than ever. Not even the Twilight parody was as good as his show could provide in the Gold Era of Eric Kripke!
ReplyDeleteI love this show and watch it since the begining, but I must tell you: the only reason I still watch it every week is that I can't convince myself that this is a permanent downhill for one of my oldest tv pleasures.
Is it too much to ask for some GOOD SENSE in this show?! I BEG YOU, SERA GAMBLE!!
Yeah, that is messing with me too. Sadists are able to feel things, just in a really twisted way. I don't know though, maybe that was a device to make his problem more obvious to the audience. (as if we wouldn't notice something was off lol)
ReplyDeleteI actually don't watch 'Fringe' so I didn't catch the reference unfortunately, but I agree with you on the concept. :)
ReplyDeleteDo I think Dean went a little overboard? Maybe. But I fully understand and support why he did what he did. Sam not only betrayed him and endangered him, but he endangered a child. A child that Dean has come to think of as his own, a child that Dean almost hurt because of what Sam did to him. And Sam flat out told him he didn't care. He didn't care what was done to Dean, he didn't care what was done to Ben. He didn't care that Dean almost hurt Lisa and Ben, and he didn't care that Dean lost them. All he cared about was doing what HE wanted. He used Dean like he was nothing, and he used the people that Dean loved and had vowed to protect like they were nothing, and then he had the audacity to stand there and admit he didn't care, and then try and snow Dean again with false tears of "I need help."
ReplyDeleteAfter all of that, to try and act like he suddenly has feelings and cares that he's become a monster?
It was reprehensible.
I don't blame Dean for losing it. It was disgusting to me that Sam had so betrayed his brother, and then was still trying to play Dean like the sniveling cowardly creature that he is. He can feel, it's just he only cares about himself and what he wants.
Frankly, I hope that Dean drops Sam after this. Sam could have been honest with him a long time ago, but he manipulated and used Dean like he was nothing. He is the reason that Dean has lost his family, people who genuinely cared about Dean and supported him. After everything that Dean has sacrificed for Sam, this is just too much. It's too much.
And I am just sick to death of watching Dean become All About Sam. Where he continually sacrifices everything for Sam over and over again, and all he gets is a kick in the teeth and condemnations about how he controls Sam and is a horrible big brother and is the reason that Sam misbehaves so badly.
I'm done with it. But sadly, I fear the show isn't done with it. Dean will be stuck being All About Sam again, and trying to save him, and rinse and repeat. Meanwhile, I am sure we will get some twist about how if Dean wasn't so needy or so controlling, Sam wouldn't be acting this way, and it's really all of Dean's fault anyways, for being such a big damn loser.
I swear, if Jensen Ackles weren't still playing Dean and wasn't still commanding my loyalty as Dean, I would be so done with this show. But alas, he still does. I'm just hoping that they will start respecting his character enough to realize that Dean as a character can stand on his own, rather then being used as a lowly vehicle for the "how can we make everything about Sam Winchester" series again.
If one starts encouraging this kind of violence in fiction, one's a step closer to encourage it in real life, or even practicing it.
ReplyDeleteThey are brothers, for God's sake! :O
lol sorry, I was just equating it to the really different direction that show went in this season. O.o
ReplyDeleteEh, it's ok! I understand what you were getting at anyway. :)
ReplyDeleterelax, your english is great. ;)
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, I'm a light Sam girl. But I didn't buy his puppy eyes this time. And I don't buy this "I'm souless, I can't feel a thing". I can't believe anyone would reveal something so important in a promo! :O It's a trap, dude!
ITA with you Wilson, especially with regards Sam's plea for help being a main reason why he deserved to get hit. Seriously, my first thoughts when he said that was, "That's rich, Sam." I mean, after everything he put Dean through, he's got the nerve to turn around and make it all about him and how he needs help. (And, I totally think that he did that just to try and get Dean to feel sorry for him - hopefully sorry enough that he would reconsider slitting his throat.) I mean, a couple of weeks ago (or so) ago, he completely screws his brother over, KNOWING that it was wrong but not being able to work up the energy to care and then he deliberately keep the fact that there's a cure secret from Dean (which leads him to believe there's no hope and that he's going to die, which in turn leads to his rash decision to see Lisa) for who knows what reason (maybe you were afraid that Dean would suspect), and now that he's confronted with it the only thing he can say is, "There's something wrong with me and I need help." Sam, could you be anymore self-centred (or any more manipulative)?
ReplyDeleteAs for the second question, I agree, yes it was, but like you said, Sam's been stirring up a recipe for trouble the minute he came back and decided not to tell Dean that he'd return.
This is kind of off-topic actually, but it does relate to Sam's soulless-ness (er...peripherally :): if Samuel was brought back by the same thing that brought Sam back, is it possible that Samuel is soulless? I apologise if this has already been brought up elsewhere!
ReplyDeleteHoly cow. Did your cereal come with extra crazy today?
ReplyDeleteThere's a difference between reality and TV. Most people who find something acceptable on a TV show would not find it so in real life. However, that is a healthy mind, with not blurring the lines.
Your mind, however, seems like it needs more fruit on your crazy cereal.
I agree with this--Sam isn't the only one that is not acting himself. Dean has been going too far, but do you really expect someone with his history and this show's past to just take this situation and look at it unbiased and calmly? No--this was a powder keg from the beginning of the season, and whether or not you agree with what has happened, that's something that was set in motion, because Sam was unable to actually speak or act truthfully, and Dean's alcohol-trust-angst fueled problem wasn't going to abate with Sam constantly betraying him by acting so contrived and fake. I sooo understand that Dean punched Sam way too many times, but really, Sam did nothing but egg it on, even after Dean found out he could feel noting, he still pushed it by trying to act like he was affected and saddened or something.
ReplyDeleteGet your head out of your arse.
ReplyDeleteYou're not accusing every single writer of action/drama/genre of encouraging violence in real life and that they're one step away from doing it in real life.
Are we five?
You know what? They both deserved what they got.
ReplyDelete"Bullying and violence is a very real problem here in the real world"
ReplyDelete"If it was real life I would want Dean staked for doing that"
Rofl. I do love a good contradiction in the morning.
Oh, whatever. You might as well bring up the fact that that reporter had several bodies strewn all over her house--bodies that she invoked a curse on that had SIBLINGS TELLING EACH OTHER TO KILL EACH OTHER. Ok? There's got to be some sort of suspension of belief otherwise you might as well be taking this as truth about the real world! the situation with Dean and Sam at the end of the episode was actually a product of Veritas, the same entity that brought several people to kill themselves and people around them. If Dean didn't succumb to that same power of revelation, or react in a similar manner with his pent up aggression and Sam's inept ability to act like he gives a shit, then it wouldn't have aligned with the rest of the writing of the episode! What makes Dean better than that Dentist who drilled that man to death!?
ReplyDeleteTrust me, I wish it wouldn't have to be this way. Sam's been messing up for 2 years, and just when I though he'd redeemed himself for all the horrible things he'd done (he saved the sodding world, how can you top that), the writers found yet another way for him to be dependent on Dean (and definitely the worst way, this time). I wish for once, Dean would be Sam' case...
ReplyDeleteFrom Dean's perspective, how is he to know if Sam is actually telling the truth 'this time'? He's been lying through his teeth from the jump and just because he got caught by Veritas and says he's coming clean now, why exactly should Dean believe anything he's said? At this point, Dean has lost everything. His family, his brother, his hope of ever being anything more than a killer... and he sees Sam as the one person who he should be able to trust. Sam used that trust against him AGAIN, and everything he felt came out in that beat down. For all he knows, Sam is still not Sam and a monster. Remember, we know what's wrong with Sam because of the preview, Dean doesn't know it yet. All he knows is Sam lied again, and he used Dean's love for him against him. And it wasn't because he couldn't feel, it was on purpose. Everything he's done has been for his own selfish motive so far, even knowing it was probably wrong. So question #1, Did Sam deserve it? Yeah, he did. You can only push people so far before they snap and he's pushed Dean to the brink of wanting to 'kill him in his sleep' before he was found out and confessed. Question #2, Did Dean go too far? Anger, betrayal, doubt and loss all rolled into one moment... Lisa told him he can't keep pushing all that down and not expect to go ballistic at some point. She was right. So, no. He was pushed too far and he reacted. He still doesn't actually know whether it's Sam or not because he cannot believe anything Sam has said, so no. It was justified IMO. Even a Sam without feelings was taught better than to lie to his brother.. a lesson he should've learned many times already.
ReplyDeleteWhile I do believe that Dean acted partially on how pissed he was, and I do think Sam had it coming for putting people's lives at risk in allowing Dean to get turned, I also feel that part of the reason Dean beat him down was so that he could restrain him until he could figure out what to do next. Sam admitting that he didn't feel bad about putting a child (Ben) in danger shows there is something wrong with him. Dean also knows how strong Sam can be, so if it had to be a fight to get control of his brother until he can figure out how to help him, Dean knew he had to do it quick and dirty...at this point, he doesn't know what is causing Sam to act that way, and as such, he isn't taking any more unnecessary chances. Was it brutal? Yes. Was it necessary? I can see from Dean's POV, especially considering Sam's questionable past and then the fact that Lucifer was inside his grapefruit, that he thought it was. So, while as a brother it may have been devastating to do and for us viewers to watch, as an hunter, I think his instincts kicked in and did what felt right.
ReplyDeleteVeritas was already dead when Dean beat Sam, so I don't think it was her fault. I don't support violence based on revenge, that's all. You don't have to agree with me, I'm just saying.
ReplyDeleteYou have blown this out of proportion. I was thinking the same thing about how hard Dean was beating Sam up "OMG he's gonna be DEAD!??" but you really have to realize something: this isn't real. The beatings aren't real, and are dramatized to make the situation more dramatic and intense. There are several times in this show that people get beat up like this only to stand back up and keep fighting, etc. I'm not saying anyone should advocate violence like this, but if you are seriously trying to make a point about the violence in this show because of this one scene, you are going too far, just like Dean did. It was obvious that it was a device for the writers to show how far off the deep end Dean has gone, and how far Sam will go to lie to Dean to try to quell Dean from reacting just how Dean reacted to Sam's behavior. All of this was something that was started by a truth Veritas unleashed from both brothers, with or without an actual spell. For Dean to see reason and to calm down in spite of the fact that he had self-medicated all day long with beer, actually lied to by Sam and brought to believe he was going crazy ONLY to find out he was not only right, but Sam was unable to speak truthfully at all, while patronizing him with fake emotions and crocodile tears, all on top of the buried issues the guy already had, it would have been absolutely out of character, and would have made no sense to have Dean just say "Oh Well" and just forgive Sam via the high road. Can you not understand this?
ReplyDeleteit may not be consciously, but watching so much violence on tv these days, don't you think it affects the way people see violence? It's not like "Oh my God, the man beated his brother almost to death!", but "Oh, I understand why he beat up his brother, he was angry because he felt betrayed."
ReplyDeleteI don't know if anybody else feels the same, but I find this very disturbing!
I'm not saying that it was just because of the spell: it was a gigantic truth revelation that was built up over the course of this season and the episode. I mean, do you complain about Shakespeare too? There's revenge in his plays...there's things like this in every work of fiction, it's called the plot, and it usually has to do with disagreeing with some part of what's going on, but that's the point--to show that Dean's gone too far, and Sam doesn't appear to have realized what he was doing to himself and Dean by denying the truth repeatedly.
ReplyDeleteHum, FYI, for all we know Dean still though Sam was not human when he beat him, if that makes you feel better. I mean it's not like Sam gave him any reason to think otherwise.
ReplyDeleteBut human or not, Sam deserved it.
It's not like everybody in the world reads Shakespeare, dude. Especially non-english countries. Have you ever read Machado de Assis? I don't think so. Get out of your bubble.
ReplyDeleteI know what fiction and plot are, thanks. You asked us if Dean had gone too far? My answer is: hell yes! You can't say beating up brothers is normal, even for fiction. It's not like a cop fighting a bad guy for his life. This is television, there are a loooot of young people who watch it and that's the lesson the writers are trying to send to their audiences? That violence is OK if you have a good reason? HELL, NO!
On the bright side folks - Sam and Dean did work like a team to kill Veritas - Dean jabbed her with the meat hook and Sam stabbed her with the knife. That was reminiscent of the good old days wasn't it?
ReplyDeleteExactly. Sam being his brother didn't really enter into it. It was instinct. Dean's a hunter, and what was in front of him may or may not be Sam. He has no way of being sure and he couldn't exactly take Sam's word for it now could he? So it was the quickest and best way to control the situation. I think his anger and betrayal entered into it once it started, but can't blame him for that. Sam's a tough guy. I'm pretty sure he'll survive getting wailed on by his brother. And it's not like he can feel anger or betrayal, and like you said, he can't be allowed to put innocents in jeopardy like he has been doing simply to finish the job. Dean did what needed to be done, whether he liked it or not.
ReplyDeleteWell, I'm sorry for using what is generally a well-known source of drama for an example. Quit painting me as some sort of ethnocentric idiot who lives in his little "bubble" alright? If you've not been reading my other comments, I've stated several times by now that Dean's just as screwed up as Sam. The thing about the situation is that both of their issues (Dean's overloading on the alcohol, screwing things up with Lisa, feeling like he's got nothing left, being betrayed like never before over a truth spell gone awry) and Sam's lack of a soul (coldness, manipulating Dean repeatedly, lying to him without even being convincing, patronizing fake emotions to the point of showing his hand that he really, in fact, does not care anymore) is something that just blew up in both of their faces.
ReplyDeleteI want the old Sam back! I agree with Dean hitting him (he totally deserved it), but not with how badly he beat him. I am a Sam girl and this whole evil Sam thing is getting really old and is really frustrating me. I feel like it has been drawn out for longer than needed. I really hope something changes and fast! I am sticking with the show in the hopes that I get my old Sam back (or something close to the old Sam). I hope I am not disappointed for much longer.
ReplyDeleteUnless Dean believed Sam's lack of feelings.Then he was just beating him for revenge.
ReplyDeleteIf Dean thought Sam was a monster, I could live with that.. But it's weird. I don't think I would be able to beat up a monster that looks exactly like my little sister, for instance. But that's me, not a monster hunter.
Yeah right. Dean wanted to kill Sam in his sleep, but he was being honest the whole time? Give me a break. Sam did deserve to get the crap beaten out of him and I believe he felt that also, which is why he never even raised a hand. He realizes there is something wrong with him and that Dean already questioned his motives during the shifter episode. He likes working with Dean because Dean keeps him "human". In the 6x01 Sam said it is just better with Dean around because he cares -- Sam let Dean know right there that Sam doesn't "care" enough to do something that goes against logic. Dean just didn't realize how far that went.
ReplyDeleteYour comment "patronizing, savagely false plea"... etc made me sooooo mad that you can count me out on this site for a while. Even if I agree that Sam needed his butt kicked, I can't stand anybody taking one of the boys to task like that with such one sided blinders on. If that is the kind of hate that gets reporting privilege on this site, then I don't need to read it.
What!?
ReplyDeleteYou gotta be kidding me. Re-watch that scene with Sam continuing to act like he's all messed up about not having a soul, it was awful to me, and made me feel like nothing he said could be that true. It seemed more like a way to get out of Dean trying to kill him. And I can't believe you're calling my stance one-sided. Maybe I need to elaborate more in my original post about how I feel the situation is playing out, but I really can't believe that you just took personal offense from me about a way that I interpreted a scene!
What!?
ReplyDeleteYou gotta be kidding me. Re-watch that scene with Sam continuing to act like he's all messed up about not having a soul, it was awful to me, and made me feel like nothing he said could be that true. It seemed more like a way to get out of Dean trying to kill him. And I can't believe you're calling my stance one-sided. Maybe I need to elaborate more in my original post about how I feel the situation is playing out, but I really can't believe that you just took personal offense from me about a way that I interpreted a scene!
Sam was trying to keep Dean in the apartment. Dean made the decision to put Ben and Lisa in danger. Sam didn't even know he was still in contact with them.
ReplyDeleteThe Lamia scene in WAB's was SOOO reminiscent of seasons 1-2 that I think I almost jumped out of my seat.
ReplyDeleteYeah, so you stop painting me as some dumb chick who has never read a book.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, both Sam and Dean are veeery screwed-up at the end of the episode and Dean hit Sam almost so he could feel better and punish lil'bro at the same time. I just think it went too far.
Wow, Wilson you sure know how to get a discussion started!
ReplyDeleteTalk about opening a can of worms. ;)
There is a huge difference between watching a TV show where someone is being beaten and watching someone being beaten firsthand in real life.
ReplyDeleteWhen I watched the scene it never even occurred to me to consider whether Sam deserved it. I still don't think we know the whole story with Sam yet, so that's part of the reason, but I just saw the scene as a completely emotional response - not a rational one. We see Dean a wreck (even Cas can immediately tell that Dean needs another glass of booze), and then we see him refuse to even consider the possibility that Sam could really be Sam and not a monster. He won't even entertain the possibility that his brother could have betrayed him like that. Lisa hits it on the head when she implies his relationship with Sam is overly emeshed and unhealthy. He starts off thinking Sam is a monster, decides to trust Sam, is told that Sam is not human, and then hears Sam's plea. He did the only thing he could do, which was knock him out (stabbing him was off the table once Sam asked for his help). Dean's reaction was not right in a cool-headed, rational way, but it was human and a sign of how deeply he loves his brother. I'm glad he reacted like he did because it felt real.
ReplyDeletelol, You will stop coming to this site cause of what a fan said about a show... okay I feel normal all of a sudden thanks. (Yes that was bitchy, but you made me laugh girl and this is ridiculus)
ReplyDeleteAlright, this has gone far enough. Re-writing the article so we can all chill since we're sort've agreeing with each other anyway...
ReplyDeleteAre your siblings from the Brady Bunch?
ReplyDeleteI think it's absolutely normal to get into fights with your siblings. Probably not as far as Dean and Sam took it, but hey, that's why it's fiction.
Yeah, I'm about to do a bit of closing this little can of worms too.
ReplyDeleteI am re-writing a more...uhm...calm version of this argument?
Shhhhh. The same anti-violence nuts will now turn into PETA nuts and berate Wilson for keeping worms in cans!
ReplyDeleteYeah but at least he was letting them out right?
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's what I saw as well. :/
ReplyDeleteYou are so funny you should write a sitcom or something. Go ahead, champz! ¬¬'
ReplyDeleteSlap a sibling is one thing, beating them is totally different.
It wasn't revenge.
ReplyDeleteIt was a completely irrational emotional response to learning his brother had been betraying him - not because he was possessed as he though - but because he just did.
You don't have to rewrite anything. If that's your opinion you should stand for it.
ReplyDeleteEver the comic relief, Hungry Emo. :)
ReplyDeleteWhen I read your article I admit I was a little concerned - for you, not because of what you said. I thought at the time, 'Wilson I hope you have a very thick skin when the pro Sam / pro Dean factions come out to play.' It's a jungle out there. ;)
ReplyDeleteWhy leave the site, because of one person's opinion. You might not agree with it, but it doesn't mean you have to stop coming to this site.
ReplyDeleteSam doesn't know he doesn't have a soul. He just knows that something is wrong, but he doesn't know what. We don't learn about the soul being gone until next week and thanks to the previews we know that already.
ReplyDeleteWho mentioned slapping?
ReplyDeleteI have been in fist fights with my brother before. He broke my nose once. I pushed him down a flight of stairs and fractured his shoulder. We laugh about it now and say "that's just how he rolls."
The difference is, Supernatural is a work of fiction and more often than not, in fiction, the characters do things we ourselves would like to do every now and then. They say things we wish we could think of. It's a heightened reality for a reason.
I certainly stand for my opinion. I just feel that I need to restate my opinion in a more thought-out way.
ReplyDeleteNo wayz! This is just like real life and makes me want to hurt someone.
ReplyDeleteHAHAHAHAA Omg I just passed the last 10 mins reading the Wilson/Ana. aw... Sorry that was fun for me.
ReplyDeleteGonna wait for the update to read the actual post hahaha. but that was fun. (BTW add French people to the Shakespear "bubble" :PPP) hehehe
actually, that is one of the definitions of revenge. irrational emotional response to knowing someone did something bad to you.
ReplyDeleteNot if it happens in the first 5 min. Then it doesnt matter if they put it in the trailer and it gets viewers ;). I'm buying it. And I freaken hope we will know at least this next friday
ReplyDeleteyes he knew. Dean told him lisa was okay with it and he saw dean talking to them on the phone.
ReplyDeleteOK, then. I'll read it when it's ready. ;)
ReplyDeleteWhat a healthy relationship you got! Thank God mine is even healthier with my siblings. So fistfights are not really our thing. My mistake was believing our way was the normal way. LOL
ReplyDeleteBut in this context, and especially in Supernatural as a whole, revenge takes on a whole new meaning than a simple emotional response. More often that not, in this show, revenge is pre-meditated and thought-out, even if a little skewy. Dean's actions at the end of the episode were an instant reaction.
ReplyDeleteEric is STILL THERE! And it's the same crew. The only difference is the show runner is sera. It's not that much of a big change. And they warned us this season would feel different then the other cause its a new start. a french start after they ended the five season arc. True, sam is weird but its part of the arc, and its not like the caracters around him acted like he wasnt weird. Dean is not so much dif for me, he has a woman so he doesnt hit on girls the rest of his personality is there... well its starting to be all there :DD.
ReplyDeleteI love this season so much. I just LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well... that was your "first" mistake.
ReplyDeleteMy biggest fan, Ana Flavia, is rallying for me to write a sitcom but I'm too modest for that.
ReplyDeleteI don't hate on Sam, but I do believe Dean had finally reached the final straw and did not hold back this time. Did Sam deserve a butt kicking. Oh yes, he did. Dean lost any hope in his brother and Lisa and Ben. Sam to sit there and tell him he let Dean get turned because Dean could survive it? Really? He has no soul but he should still remember what his brother is like. The brother who took such a horrible beating so he could there for Sam and reach him if he could. That brother who he has screwed royal. Yeah. Sam deserved it, but I still love Sam. I just think Dean could take no more and I can't blame him.
ReplyDeleteForget writing sitcoms Hungry - they should cast you in Supernatural - you could be Crowley's half human offspring, like Jesse the antichrist - only with fangs. Perfect way to act out those violent impulses. ;)
ReplyDeleteExactly. You can't expect a hunter's reaction (especially Dean) to be like a real person's. That's why it's called fiction. Hunters don't exist, so trying to fit Dean's reaction into a normal situation is irrelevant. NOBODY in real life has ever been through what these guys have been. Unless they're real, and that's awesome.
ReplyDeleteYou had me at fangs.
ReplyDeleteO hai Drama Queen.
ReplyDeleteWell, lemme take out the outside knowledge: Sam still acted as if he was messed up about the situation, but if he was sure something was wrong with him, he should've just stated as much without all the extraneous theatrics that completely ruined his intention of abating Dean's anger.
ReplyDeleteI love how rational your posts are. lol
ReplyDeleteYeah, I didn't really think about it, and that's my own fault. This fandom is unlike any other and I know that. I should have taken that into consideration in the first place, but hey, I guess life is just one learning experience after another.
ReplyDeleteYou two crack me up!!! I'm LMAO over here!
ReplyDeleteI like your re-write, although I could see where you were coming from in the original article.
ReplyDeleteSam and Dean really have now hit rock bottom in their relationship - hopefully from this point on they can start to rebuild. It will be interesting to see if the missing soul is the only reason for Sam's behavior, or if there is also something else going on with him (as some people have theorised). I can't wait to find out who has Sam's soul, and how they get it back.
Great post Wilson, I very much appreciate the time and effort that goes into doing this. :)
I still hold the opinion that this season is all about getting the brothers "back on track." If this were supposed to be all doom and gloom, then these episodes would have been held off until later on in the season. The fact they're airing them now gives them a lot more room to resolve it and move on.
ReplyDeleteAnd yeah, I've enjoyed Wilson's artcile (and the comments after) more than I should have.
I agree with you and hope you are right about this, because man, I don't know if I can take these kinds of hits anymore when it comes to Sam & Dean at each other's throats. It makes for some good drama, but for only so long...It gets exhausting.
ReplyDeleteI agree whole-heartedly. I'm not sure how much more I can take of brotherly hate. I don't expect them to go right back to Season 1, but the constant animosity is very wearing.
ReplyDeleteMy second mistake was trying to argue rationally with you. Good bye. õ/
ReplyDeletethat is sooo true, dude! It could be, that's a nice question! :D
ReplyDeletehe may be there, but the show still feels a lot different for me. :S
ReplyDeleteProbably because it actually took the confrontation that he had with Dean to make Sam realize the importance of telling Dean that something is really wrong with him. Though I will say, your opinion sucks.
ReplyDeleteI can't take it anymore either... And I think it is taking too long for them to get back on track. It really looks it will take the whole season... :(
ReplyDeleteIt's kinda sad, actually... We are here, chatting on spoilertv on a sunday night and they're fighting demons and wendigos and gods and archangels and dying and ressurecting and dying again.. LOL
ReplyDeleteand creepy. maybe more than all those monsters (lately, i've been laughing at those deaths in the show, seriously).
ReplyDeleteI agree, those guys have totally different lives from ours, Dean felt very bad at the time, I understand, i do... But i don't think it was necessary for the show to do that. Too much violence, the audience doesn't need that. We already got the news.
;). Contradiction make the world go round. lol. :P.
ReplyDeletelol. I wasn't actually being serious, but sarcasm is hard to read on the page...guess I shoulda used *sarcastic* in there somewhere. ;).
ReplyDeleteWell, either way, it was a two-sided issue. Sam was ignorant to Dean's wariness of Sam, and Dean was just getting more and more angry with time. By the way, funny little quip about how my opinion "sucks." You got any explanation for why my opinion sucks? Is it because you disagree? Do you have a generally coherent thought that disproves mine? Do you have reasoning that amounts to more than a need to find yourself amusing? If so, please post it. Otherwise, keep that crap to yourself.
ReplyDelete"Trying" being the operative word, of course.
ReplyDeleteAnd if you'll notice, you hardly even talked about Supernatural in your replies. You were too busy trying to force a laugh that never came. :(
Wow. Talk about getting riled up and offended over my opinion saying that yours sucks. I don't agree with it. And I don't spend every waking moment of my life sitting here and generalizing and analyzing everything. So do me a favor and how about you not insult me, just because I don't like your opinion? It makes you look kinda silly.
ReplyDeleteWell, you alone are not the audience.
ReplyDeleteObviously, some of the audience liked it, or did feel it somewhat necessary.
I'm hardly offended, more than I am wondering why you are even here in the first place unless it is to troll people or something. You just said "Your opinion sucks"...that's generally seen as an inflammatory attempt to just start something. You didn't simply state you disagree with me, or make an attempt to post your opinion, you insulted me. I am sorry you disagree with my opinion, but don't even make this into me going after you.
ReplyDeleteWe're six episodes into the season and almost every single episode has dealt with this plot. I personally don't think it's taking too long... especially considering they're coming off the bat of five plot-heavy seasons.
ReplyDeleteIf all they did was shrug and "get over it" then it would make for poor TV. Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass, it's about dancing in the rain.
I'm hardly a troll. You're the one making those insinuations. I just don't agree with your opinion. That's all. Do I have to sit and give you a detailed explanation? It's kinda tiring after posting it in other places. I wasn't trying to start anything. I just simply do not like your opinion. I don't agree with it at all. You're the one who came back and started insulting me.
ReplyDeleteI agree - if I said 'you took the words right out of my mouth' you'd know I wasn't accusing you of stealing wouldn't you?
ReplyDeleteThe writers have played us perfectly. By the time this episode aired most viewers (including myself) were going nuts, wondering wtf was going on. Now we've been given just enough to keep us hooked. Hopefully Family Matters will bring us more. IMO this is great writing. They've got 22 episodes to tell us this season's story. Each episode has introduced a new element, and I'm guessing a large chunk of those are now in place and it's time for the story arc to move forward.
Honestly I believe Dean should've never beat the crap out of Sam. Yes what Sam did is wrong but in his defense he has no soul and a with out a soul he's gonna be emotionless. And when he was confessing to Dean yeah he had no emotion but this doesn't mean he wasn't telling the truth he knows he should be worried about him not having any feelings and he realizes something is wrong so he knows he needs to ask for help. I def don't condone what dean did but I think that just set him over the top after what Lisa had just told him. But I think its just a little crazy that every one is coming down on Sam and how he's "evil" because back in season 1 it was dean who was all about the hunt and didn't show a lot of emotion about how they went about the hunt. Even tho the truth dean had said to Veritas was based on the "truth" Sam had told him earlier I still feel when something evil isn't going on with sam that is how it is they kinda just switched personalities. Sam is the hard on now and Dean is the soft on, where in the beginning Sam was the soft one and Dean was the hard on
ReplyDeleteOk, we disagree. Good night.
ReplyDeleteHoly hell folks...it's a Drama...exaggerated emotions and behavior...that's why we watch, that's why they write like they do! I for one, get sucked into the drama,the emotional roller coaster ride and come away feeling delightfully drained.
ReplyDeleteThe way I see it, in the past Dean has not been above pummelling his brother when he sees him as the 'things' he hunts (he's abit self-righteous like that) , and Sam has, for the most part taken the beaten (cuz he knows he has crossed a line), so nothing is out of character in Dean's behavior/reaction.I never like seeing someone beat senseless, but Dean has taken alot of shit over the years and it's bound to leak out somehow into a violent erruption, and who better to beat on and abuse than family, cuz they'll always love us and eventually come around. Sam this time just went too far for his brother to reign it in.
I am enjoying thoroughly, the story arc this season,wondering how the brothers are going to come back from this Grand Canyon of a rift.And to discover how the "angels" figure in all this...cuz I suspeculate they are the reason Sam may be soulless.
Well, that's what I've been trying to say for like 3 hours now. :/
ReplyDeleteWell goddess bless your heart for your efforts... your good ! Keep making us think with those controversial opinions of yours ;-}
ReplyDeleteHi Wilson, Love reading your stuff <3
ReplyDeleteI strongly believe that Sam HAS feelings, He's just NOT connecting/recognising said feelings. I've seen too much evidence in the last 5 episodes that tells me this.
Even the way he was talking to the girl last night proves this for me. they were negative feelings but they were feelings.he came for Dean, He told Dean "it's better with you" in episode 1. He know's there is something wrong with him. These are feelings in my opinion.
Now unless it comes out later that he knew about his soul, and willingly gave it (i'll sharpen my pitchfork, just in case lol ) Well i have to defend him, but not attacking anyone who thinks differently.
I don't believe that Sam was acting at the end last night, maybe things are better with Dean/maybe not. i dunno... i guess you have to call me gullible. I think Sam had nothing left to lose, and he didn't want Dean to kill him, and He kept it from Dean, they are all feelings.
As for Dean. All through that episode Dean's nerves were frayed to the edge. Anybody would snap, but i think he DELIBERATELY beat Sam unconscious, so he could haul him off to Bobby/Cas. judging by the promo, Cas.
Dean's scared, and he was thinking his brother was Lucifer, and he doesn't know what to believe. Dean doesn't trust this Sam, as far as he's concerned, he's a threat, and Dean can't kill him till he's sure, so BAM, BAM, BAM etc.
Did Sam deserve it?
He DID, and he Didn't. He's been pissing the audience off since he appeared this season, and last week's vamp episode had everyone out for his blood. I've wanted to give him a beat down since he appeared, but of course he's fictional so that's not possible..... so i'll admit i did get some satisfaction out of that, but at the same time it was damn painful to watch.
I do believe that Sam will be the victim in this but we'll wait and see
Yeah, kind of like to think that it's at least Sam and not some creature that's taken over his body. I don't want to find out 10 episodes later that what we've been looking at is someone or something else. So whatever Sam does (lies, fakes emotions) is okay with me as long as the show's still all about the two brothers. And I do hope he was at least able to feel confused about the situation (in the last scene).
ReplyDeleteAnd for the record, I'm a Sam-girl, Dean-girl, Cas-girl, Bobby-girl, Crowley-girl, hell I'm even Lucifer-girl. I just like the damn show okay? A lot. ;)
Sam deserved the beat down because he was obviously still lying. I personally think it might have something to do with Death, he might have reanimated Sam minus soul as a believed favor to Dean for freeing him from Satan. I don't know what to feel about Dean's situation. He knows hunting is in his blood yet tried to start a family regardless. He has seen how hunters that try to live normal end up and did it anyway. He's like a glutton for punishment. Lol it's funny how Bobby pointed out what I was thinking. Dean always seems to get afflicted by curses that are spreading about the populous. I think that's a running gag of the series.
ReplyDeleteI honestly can't yet say if Sam deserved it or not. I mean, we know from the promo that Sam is soulless, but we don't yet know what that implies. Is his body living here, reacting, making memories, while his soul is living elsewhere, making other memories. (Dean remembers hell, even though 'only' his soul was there). Then, Sam said he can't feel anything but we have been shown that he still does feel something. Even if he was only pretending to Dean. Without emotions he wouldn't feel the need to. The same as it wouldn't matter to him what Dean would think of him if he knew. He'd be indifferent to all and evrything except his own survival, which is instinct even in insects. Which would also mean that he needs a 'logical' reason to hunt in the first place, because no instinct-driven animal would go into danger without any motive.
ReplyDeleteFor now I keep judgement off until we know what the writers imply by losing one's soul. It's not like they can find any accurate info on how somebody without soul lives.
I'm a Sam girl too, but love Dean nearly as much, it's the younger sibling-thing for me:-P, but the beating didn't disturb me al that much because they get beaten around so much, in their universe it's never as significant than in our 'real' world. Between hunters it seems like a rough but not unforgivable method.
What really did make me sad was the fact that Dean was about ganking Sam from very early on without ultimate prove that it wasn't really Sam. I was mourning the old Dean Sam relationship where Dean would have fought for Sam or at least have tried to figure where 'his' Sam was. A Dean who would have wanted prove and prove again, before even thinking about killing his own brother. That old Dean who would give his own life to protect Sammy. That, more than the beating showed how broken and done Dean was. My heart bled for him.
Like I said, I'm a Sam girl, and overal very loyal to things I care about but I'm getting real tired to find justifications to defend him. He did some very bad things and was redeemed, I don't want to go that route again. I cling to the hope that he's all innocent in his current behaviour. That he's a victim, not a selfish bastard.The writers have done that and it was hard to watch once. they did a great job in the end, but if it turns out it's all Sam's fault then I'm gonna be a very sad girl. (I don't want it to be Deans fault either, BTW) but so much was swept under the carpet last two seasons that gave Sam some benefit of the doubt. The whole first half of season five we were shown how badly he screwed up, even if it wasn't doing anything for the plot. (In the japanese Game show, not even Sam and Dean understood the questions, only us viewers)
I want it to be some outside force to have messed up Sammy and that Sam is NOT to blame for anyof his bastardly behaviour so far. Everything else would make Dean forgiving him unrelistic. Sam needs this, if not they really are assasinating his character. But Dean needs it just as badly. He's been hurt over and over and over again by Sam. Most people would have turned their backs a long time ago. Sam has always been Dean's whole world. One can only go on for so long. If it turns out that it wasn't 'his' Sammy that betrayed him this time, but something else, it would heal a lot in Dean's world and be the only way, they can be real close again, I think.
Sorry about my grammar. I'm not native:-) Hope you guys understand what I want to say anyway.
Sam is evil
ReplyDeleteLook, no one is forcing you to read this article. If you don't want to read it: A) Don't read it B) Don't come back to this site, like you said. It's as simple as that. You really don't have to be a drama queen and whine about it.
ReplyDeleteDid you actually watch the episode? Dean was a vampire and was about to eat Lisa and Ben. He pushed Ben out of the way so he would not eat him. Would you rather have him push Ben out of the way or drink his blood dry?
ReplyDeleteIt's called character development. Sam and Dean have changed and grew as characters and that's why it feels different. It would be weird if Sam and Dean stayed the same even after Sam going to hell and Dean staying a year with Lisa and Ben.
ReplyDeleteI prefer your crazy version :P
ReplyDeleteI think Dean's reaction was harsh but justified. I mean Sam had basically destroyed the Dean's relationship with Lisa and Ben and they were important to him, lied to him and had just been beating around the bush with Dean the whole season so far.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, I think Sam can go back to normal Sam because well, at least he admitted it and asked for help. Even if he did sound a bit off.
I disagree with you on the whole Sam should say what he feels so at least it'll be authentic thing though. I mean if he lost his soul, he can't feel anything and if he can't feel anything then how can he say what he feels? Its like trying to walk without legs (Bad comparism, I know. Sorry XD)
laugh? what laugh?! I seriously meant every word I wrote, except for the sarcastic line I wrote about you writing sitcoms, because you weren't funny at all. I'm not some dumb comediant-wannabe.
ReplyDeleteThanks for stating the obvious. (Y)
ReplyDeleteI said that I didn't like so much violence and, I quote, "the audience doesn't need that". I never said they didn't like it at all.
As I mention before I am neither a "Sam" nor a "Dean" girl. I like them both alike. That´s why I am not so rushed to see Sam as evil. For me, he is still a victim and Dean is as much at fault as Sam. Why?
ReplyDeleteFor starters: Sam died in Season 2. End of story (well it would be if SPN ended there). But Dean brought him back (What´s dead should stay dead). Dean brought him back because - let´s face the truth - he was selfish. He could not live without his brother. The result of that, Sam was trying like a maniac to save his brother from hell for a whole year.
And then he had to watch his brother getting ripped apart by hellhounds and then he was being left alone to fight and grieve. Dean couldn´t even live a couple of Days without making the deal for his brother but Sam had to live alone for four month (and I am not couting "mystery spot" in that one). We all saw how devastated Sam was during that time. He was an easy target for Ruby. And let´s face it. She knew which buttons to push. She was really good.
Since Sam couldn´t save his brother, he tried to at least revenge him. Hence the frantic search for Lilith.
By the time Dean returned, Sam was already an addict.
I myself have a friend, who is an alcohol addict. You can´t argue with an addict, you can´t expect him to just stop. They do everything to let you belive, they are OK. Including lying. Addiction is an illness.
After Dean came back broken from Hell, of course Sam´s motivation to gank Litith was greater than ever. And that´s when the angels started to screw Sam around.
Sam was always treated like a bad peson (if not a demon). The angels called him an abomination, Cass did not even wanted to shake his hand in the beginning. Dean more than once called him a monster (let´s not forget that) and while I am talkin about Dean, let´s not forgett, he broke the first seal. Yeah, he didn´t know but neither did Sam, or he would not have killed Lilith.
Now Dean was very eager to put Sam down. I mean, if Lucifer would have been back for a year, do you really think, he didn´t have anything better to do than to hunt or to ride with Dean in the Impala? He would have taken over the world the minute he was out. Dean was too eager to kill Sam than to find out, what really happend to his brother.
So am feeling sorry for Sam, because he was screwed over, by heaven and hell and sometimes even Dean was plain mean (if you walk out that door...does remind you of somebody else?). Even Bobby said, Dean was his favorite. So who is in Sam´s corner?
Apparently me, after this freaking long speech. Sorry.
So did Sam deversve the beating. Well, yes and no. He should have told Dean the truth about himself and he let Dean turn into a Vampire. But Dean shold´ve never gone to Lisa as a Vampire, that was a stupid move and not Sam´s fault. So maybe one or two punches would have been OK. Letting out all of your frustation on your brother, who finally is calling for help. Not so much.
OHO... I wrote my arguments before reading any of yours, so I won´t be influenced. It turns out, that I have almost the same arguments as you. I did not try to copy anything from you, so if it feels that way I am sorry. I just think along the same lines...And you wrote it down so much better than me.
ReplyDeleteMaybe they put it in the trailer because they held an even bigger reveal in their hand. And most people guessed anyhow what´s wrong with Sam
ReplyDeletei agree with u..., how ppl can expect sam telling what he feel to dean early if he cant feel anything..., also because he cant feel anything that why he didnt feel lie to dean is wrong... he only know there something wrong with him but he dont know what.., at the end he admit he cant feel anything n he need help..., but maybe dean dont believe his word that why he beatdown him,, so sad to watch for me.., i agree 1-2 hit but i admit is that too far..O_o
ReplyDeletebut i dont agree with u with all lisa n ben thing..., thats obviously not sam fault dean broke up with her..., remember sam let dean live a normal life for a year.., he would not show if not because dean in danger..., n sam not push dean to leave lisa either.., that dean decision with lisa permission.., n hey watch dean face n smile when lisa free him to back hunt..., that really sweet happy dean smile i ever seen since epi 1-2... watching his impala n thinking will back to hunt with his bro, n when dean came to lisa when he is vamp that full of deal fool.., he know he danger.., but he did..., O_o
yeah that rite..., i love the brother either..., so sad how ppl hate sam so much, he sacrifice his live for dean n world with jump to the pit n back soulless, he need help but ppl only can judge him for lie to dean..., yes that wrong lie to dean in the past.., i agree but rite now he dont know what he did is wrong cause he cant feel anything.., n u rite Sam was always treated like a bad person.., sound like everybody like dean better in the show or out the show..., where is sam corner...? i think im ready to jump to sam corner.., :P poor sam ^_*
ReplyDeletesorry if i complaint ur article.., but if u became a writer u better see the problem from the both side dean n sam..., from ur article sound like u r dean girl n that obviously (hope not became sam hater that i saw lately)..., i love the brothers, i can understand dean side to pissed at sam..., but i also understand sam side.., why his lying (in the past) but in this time we should understand he feel nothing.., ppl who cant feel nothing how we can put all fault on him? he back from the pit with damage not physic but worse than that..., so when he admit he need help (im not blame dean beatdown him) i agree dean pissed of (even its too far for me cause that beat can kill ppl) but u cant say
ReplyDeleteHELL F*CKIN' YES.
"This might seem a bit brutal/barbaric/overkill, but the son of a bitch deserved it. Don't give me that "Sam can't help it his soul is gone, wah wah wah!!" stuff, ok? If he really is feeling NOTHING, then why the hell didn't he just say something? All the lying he did this episode, all the backhanded, cold-looked, effed up, quasi-sadist things he pulled soured the content of my stomach"..... that 1 side opinion, if u only made a comment from a post thats ok, but u writer the article.., so sorry n sorry for my bad grammar..., ^_*
That is an interesting theory... come to think of it, I've never seen a wide range of emotions from Samuel. Perhaps Gramps is working to get the Alphas because whatever brought him back wants them and has his soul. That is, if Gramps gets all the Alphas for the thing, he will get his soul back.
ReplyDeleteI get what you mean, and I've edited accordingly about 8 hours before you posted that. And no, I'm not a dean girl because a) I'm not a girl, and b) I don't have a freakish obsession with either of them that way, but once again, I completely understand what you mean. And your english is fine :)
ReplyDeleteYeah I am sad too. And I didn´t intend to defend Sam so much as I did, now that I red my comment again. But sometimes I have the feeling that when it comes to Sam, some poeple are on a witchhunt.
ReplyDeleteI mean Sam ist still the same guy, who´s own father kind of wanted him killed and he said yes, kill me.
And no, I didn´t like, that Sam lied to Dean till the last moment. But I think, since he has no feelings everything he did was a tactical manuever. He lied because he thought it was better in getting along with Dean. In the end he told the truth because tactical it was the only way since lying was out of options.
And of course Dean was pissed of, who wouldn´t be, when faced with the reality that your brother has no feelings for you or what you are going through and puts you in harms way for a tactical advantage.
But I don´t condemn the show before I see how it plays out. I still believe it will resolve itself. The brother will get back together. And I dont´t care who has to forgive whom.
ohhh ok.., sorry again...., :P
ReplyDeletemaybe we have a diff time thats why..., when this article appear its my sleep time :D
this is my summary abt sam n dean so ppl can flash back n thinking its not for u its for everybody..,
Sam : he is victim from he is not born, his mother sold him to yed to bring jhon back alive.., he life is suck feel diff since he child n been watch all his life by yed follower.., when dean die he desperate, try everything to bargain his life for dean but no demon would do..., so he try everything to take revenge to lilith because kill dean on front of his eyes including drink demon blood (n rubby use his anger), its nothing to lose for him in his mind dean already death, n when dean back alive he have problem to explain himself to dean cause he know exactly how dean will react.., he puke all his mind in epi methamorphosis, he live in gray area n dean live in black/white area, human or no human.., he betray dean because effect of demon blood.., all whisper in his ear when he lock up in bobby room, n false voice in the phone he hear..., so of course i understand what he do.
Dean: live with big responsible, push to grow up too soon, have to take care his little bro while his father go hunt.., specially when he hear from his own dad that maybe he should kill sam the only one fam he have left.., he do everything to keep his brother save even he have to sacrifice himself.., but he not realize how sam gonna live without him.., when he back from hell he suffer for memories what he done in hell n need help, he get upset when he know sam lie to him n chose rubby more than him.., we all understand that.., when sam back from hell he worried cause sam act diff n became upset when he know did sam lie to him n let him turn into a vamps.., all that his anger we can understand.., n maybe when he beatdown sam because he not believe with all sam said n think its not sam..,
generally: ppl became put all fault to sam just because he is lie n go along with rubby or start the apocalypse that ppl forgot dean broke the first seal.., no one blame dean for it not sam, not bobby either castiel.., all will not happen if the first seal not broken..., but ppl blame sam for broke the last seal.., sadly to hear, n dont forget an angel involving with lucifer freed here.., O_o
sorry ^_*
i for one like the opinions on this website! if u dont then just GET THE FUCK OVER IT! this is an amazing show filled with drama, romance, violence and much more! if you havent realized by now not everything in shows is going to be exactly how you like it! and u dont have to leave the site bc of a damn fan! we all have different opinions! i for one LOVE arguing with other fans! lol! its one way to talk about the show, to defend your thoughts, dean/sam or whomever you chose! dont get mad at the arguing or other peoples opinions! discuss! debate! =]
ReplyDeleteyes i agree with u.., all will better after this..., now i believe after dean know that how big damage that sam get after from the pit he will really sorry for beat a crap his ltl bro that bad..., n i know dean would do anything to help sam to get back his soul n yes they relationship will be fixed n back together as dynamic duo..., i love that..., :P
ReplyDeleteWow...this, um, amuses me. How angry and defensive people will get!!! I just take it for how it is: Sam doesn't have a soul, that's good Telelvision right there. I certainly don't feel that the "writers" are "picking" on "anyone" (I got my air-quotes lesson from Cas). Sam fans complain that poor little Sammy is always the "evil" one, or Dean fans complain that he isn't in the mythology enough.... They can't win!!
ReplyDeleteThey are both great characters! And a soulless Sam makes for good plot.
You don't have to apologize for posting your interpretation of what's going on lol!
ReplyDeleteI just would like to say that I've always tried to give both brothers the same treatment--even in season 5 I was feeling worse for Sam than Dean, as while Sam was portrayed as the untrustworthy one, Dean went off and decided to given in at first. Up until that point I was worried about how Sam was getting treated, but it worked out in the end. I think something like this will work itself out again by (hopefully) the halfway point in this season. I also think Dean will get past his obvious issues as well, but I think overall that's gonna take the whole season for some reason...
ReplyDeleteD'awww. Resorting to childish insults looks so cute on you.
ReplyDeleteAnd, again, you think you can speak for the audience and what they need.
ReplyDeleteWhen will the MADNESS end?!
Agreed.
ReplyDeleteAnd if I were Meatloaf, I'd say it must have been while you were kissing me.
But I'm not. So I won't. But I just did.
I don't completely blame Sam, Dean should have known better than to do that but in his defence he thought that he was going to die and wanted to say goodbye to Lisa and Ben. Also Sam was the reason why he wanted to say goodbye in the first place.
ReplyDeleteI have one question that is not relatated to this topic we´re discussing here but I´m dying to know since the episode "weekend at bobby´s". So if anyone has an idea, please help me.
ReplyDeleteCrowley said, he is the new kind of hell. Up until now Lucifer (even prisoned in the cage) was Lord of the hell.
What did Sam do to Lucifer? I mean it is one thing to take over control to jump in the cage. But to make him lose reign over hell?
I know, I know, not the topic here, but it´s is bugging me to no end.
I fear you are right. And the waiting is killing me.
ReplyDeleteOne the other hand, I tell myselft, if they solve all the mystery in the first three episode, what would they do with the other twenty?
I belive that SPN was always more about the brother and how they deal with the drama in their lives, than about the hunting.
I admit, I like this season. I was sceptical the first two episodes, because they seemed weird. Everything was upside down. I did not recognize the boys anymore. I was confused. And I admit, I wasn´t fond of the season opening (don´t sue me).
But now I got used to the storytelling. And I even if I don´t like the brothers apart, I like the new Sam (somehow). I mean, we saw him suffering and crying for five season. Now he is all shoot first, ask questions later...completly different, refreshing, creepy and well played by J. It keeps my glued to the TV.
And Dean ist starting to be his old self. I mean in that bar, he returned to that woman and looked at her ... hilarious.
Ooo, here's a good theory. I don't think it will be true because 1 soul-less character is probably enough, but I like the possibilities with it. Definitely need to think on this one more. :-)
ReplyDeleteYeah, you're probably right, actually. Shame. It could be a very interesting side plot!
ReplyDeleteThank you. That is exactly what I was trying to say in my recap, but you were much more eloquent. Dean didn't know what was going on and couldn't believe anything Sam-Thing was telling him. He relied on instinct and his training to subdue the beast until he could get help. Do I think he also enjoyed getting his frustrations out? Absolutely! But I don't think it was all about Dean's rampaging emotions. It made complete sense when taking down a monster.
ReplyDeleteAw, Jillyanne, always restoring optimism and peace to the most passionate arguments. Every SPN site needs you on their comments. :-)
ReplyDeleteI came to this party way too late, having been working on the SPN recap and the BN preview as well as added job responsibilities. I am glad I wasn't around for the opening fireworks, but I admire your courage and I am glad you are writing for SpoilerTV. I'm sorry it got so hot for you, and I hope you will continue giving your opinion because whether I agree with you or not, it's always a good read. Besides, people did ask for you to keep the SPN conversation going in between episodes, and you certainly did. :-P Um, and if you need to borrow some protection for the next time, I have a teacher with a suit of armor.
ReplyDeleteI second that and apparently SPN fans need a good laugh right now. I blame fatigue from all the TV Guide voting. Or the fact that the season is going to Kripke us again.
ReplyDeleteBWAH!!! Hmm, Meatloaf as a guest star...that could be...interesting. We're already getting enough vampires so maybe not as a bat out of hell. We do know that he will do anything for love, but that kind of sounds like My Bloody Valentine and Sex and Violence. We had an entire season of fallen angels. I guess he'll have to go the wolf routine.
ReplyDeleteMeatloaf music has to be cheaper than AC/DC or Metallica. It has twisty supernatural themes. I say we ring up Sera and get something going.
But in season 1 Dean never betrayed Sam. He was a ruthless hunter but he always had Sam's back. That's what I was expecting when they were talking role reversal for this season. I think we have had too much of Sam as betrayer and prodigal son and too much of Dean as tragic hero and victim. I think that is why this discussion got so heated. We need the writers to get back to a balance and then we can all be Supernatural fans together instead of tearing into each other. Let's hope for a speedy return of the brothers. BOTH of them.
ReplyDeleteLOL, thanks but when people start talking about leaving the site, revision is surely needed. O.o
ReplyDeleteYeah, I will certainly be wearing...protection next time. O.o
ReplyDeleteThat was really awkward but true--I will be crossing my t's and dotting my i's because the freaks apparently come out at night...especially when one practically bitches out a single character in a long-winded post full of...cursing. Next time one of the brothers really pisses me off I gotta remember to give it a day to post my feelings on it, lest I invoke veritas and completely rid myself of my usually helpful mental censor. lol
IKR!? I was hoping when Kripke was leaving the reins to Gamble, we were finished with the brain-melting tragedy that usually befalls the Brothers Winchester.
ReplyDeleteApparently not. This might be worse than anything before... Soulless Sam is ranking freakier than Lucifer Sam right now O.o and that's way worse than Demon-Sucking Sam.
My Speculation: I think that maybe with Lucifer's second fall into the pit, the demons were short of a leader, and I believe that Crowley has been planning his rise to power for a VERY long time (hey, king of the crossroads, sneaky demon!) and he sort've sorted out the chaos between the demons (very much like in the show "Charmed"-- a new faction would rise to take over the throne of the Source when the lord of hell would fall) and has staked his claim.
ReplyDeleteOnce again, all 100% speculation. Another bit of speculation? This issue will slowly be revealed with every appearance of Crowley in the future, so stay ready for answers!
Lol - you know there do seem to be a lot of very sensitive people around just now. I know Sam and Dean are going through a (very) rough patch, but golly-gee when all's said and done it's (dare I say it) just a tv show - *runs and hides* Wilson can I hide under that table you mentioned?
ReplyDeleteHi Airbat :)
ReplyDeleteLucifer never reigned in hell. He was buried so deep in hell that he became a legend. The demons thought he was a myth, and the 'Casey' demon told Dean this in season 3.
The only people that knew of his exsistence, were the power player's in his release (Azazeal, Lilith)
Also God and the Angel's knew, but they were only introduced in season 4 and 5.
Hope this helps <3
Hi Wilson :)
ReplyDeleteMHO - You are entitled to your opinion as much as the next person. Whether you write negative or positive things is entirely up to you. As long as people are respectful of other's opinion's, there should be no trouble.
I for one love both side's of your opinion. there's nothing wrong with a bit of a harmless debate. If some people don't wanna be respectful. Just ignore them or agree to disagree. It always works for me :)
I'm looking forward to the idea's you have, to keep us all busy, and talking, for the duration of the season. <3
You know, I love this show with all my heart, for me is the best show, I've been watching SPN since the first episode and I'm in love with the brotherhood Sam and Dean have/had. We all want and need Sam back! or I'm affraid this is going to the wrong way, the story needs to change, Sam can't be the bad guy always, Dean is permanently suffering. They used to be strong together as a family,used to love each other and die if it was necesary, protect till the end. That's the way it supposed to be. I'm just hoping just as you were saying that this will unified them more for good, like the old bond they had. I'm pretty sure I'm not he only one who thinks like that.
ReplyDeleteOh, I see. Thank you so much. Didn´t look at it from this angle. My mistake.
ReplyDeleteAs always hope you are right and something will reveal during this season.
ReplyDeleteI always thought Lucifer is the EVIL, reading the bible and all. It never occured to me that a demon (king of crossroads or otherwise) took just take over. But as rochey_1 pointed out, maybe Lucifer never reigned hell. I just assumed...
And with SPN and their writers i would not have been too surprised if Sam had taken over hell :)
I also think that all the people who backed Lucifer only to watch Lucifer defeated lost status and had to lick their wounds. Crowley is the only demon we know of that actively worked against Satan, so he was on the winning side. With the other power players in disgrace, Crowley was the natural person to gain control. Kind of like in a coup.
ReplyDeleteHi yavemiel :)
ReplyDeleteMHO - Well said, couldn't of put it any better myself, even if i tried.
Everything they do is because of each other, The source of Sam's lies/betrayals/agony is Dean, and Vice versa. It's messy, it's complicated, but it's full of love....basically it's great <3
Hi BoxManLocke :)
ReplyDeleteI think Sam's smirk, and behaviour was to F**k with our heads, and keep us guessing.
"Nah... he hasn't got a soul.. Wait that was evil, he's evil.... or is he *is confused* Blah, Blah, Blah etc."
So a massive steaming pile of misdirection :)
They're doing the same with Grand Pa Creepy... but me clever, me not buying what they're selling LOL
Oh please Rochey - don't tell me Grandpa Creepy's gonna end up being the good guy? He's the character I love to hate - I don't want to have a reason to like him. Don't wanna!
ReplyDeleteHi Jillyanne :)
ReplyDeleteLong time, no type :)
No. i think the misdirection with Grand Pa Creepy is like this:
"God... i hate him...wait maybe he's good...No he's bad.... But he gave Dean the cure BLAH, BLAH BLAH *throws tantrum* etc.
But like i said, not buying what they're selling, cause me smart. I reserve my right as a crazy fan to hate anyone, outside of Sam and Dean, and Grand Pa Creepy is Numero Uno.
I thought it would be Lucifer, Cause ya know... Sammy/cage and the Socio/Soulless thing, but i iz shallow (i wanna molest Mark Pellegrino LOL ) <3
'I wanna molest Mark Pellegrino' Okay. No comment. ;)
ReplyDeleteHey whaddya say every time someone starts hating on Sam or Dean we start talking about Grandpa Creepy instead? I swear if one more person whines about Sam or Dean getting more screen time/story arc/photos, I'm gonna break out the machete and do a little slicing and dicing.
Don't forget that Sera was one of Kripke's torture-the-Winchesters minions. She obviously wanted to carry on the tradition :P
ReplyDeletePsssh... Let them leave. It'll be better for my mental state of health :P Nah, I'm kidding but I still think that people are just overreacting.
ReplyDeleteDude. Wilson make look "kinda silly" but you are an ass.
ReplyDeleteKinda tiring, huh?
ReplyDeleteYou could just explained why you didn't agree with the guy.... instead, you took the time to reply twice, trying to be a smart-arse.
And you just came off as an idiot troll.
No. They're not.
ReplyDeleteIt's a television show.
WELL.
ReplyDeleteDidn't Meatloaf just guest star in Glee? We know he's up for TV cameos!